Wrestling...thats right, Wrestling!

[Hammy]

The Angle/HBK matches they had I think were the 3 best matches I've ever seen

Exactly, they were great, a certain somebody would probably say it was all down to Angle though and by that theory Jeff Hardy could of had equally good matches with Angle

[slash666]

The Angle/HBK matches they had I think were the 3 best matches I've ever seen

Exactly, they were great, a certain somebody would probably say it was all down to Angle though and by that theory Jeff Hardy could of had equally good matches with Angle

hmm im having a hard time figuring out who you mean.... 

[sweet616]

bring back Alice Cooper! he could carry a match in his day lol

[the dirt]

To say that Bret carried HBK in that ironman match is goofy. It was somewhat of  a coming of age match for Shawn as you can see that he beat Hart at his own game.

You have to provide some better arguments, Gnrfan as to why HBK is so bad.

Iv'e at least done the same when I've discussed how shitty Angle is considering his potential.

[sweet616]

if bret hart was gonna carry anyone know way would it be HBK lol

[Axl4Life]

Gnrfan, we know your arsy but that's just cos the WWE Game is gettin' to you, we know, don't worry

As for Shawn Michaels not being a great mat wrestler, he may not be in Angle/Benoit/Hart's league, but few are.  He is still damn good, Wrestlemania 12, Iron Man Match with Bret Hart showed that, it proved to fans that he was more than just a "High Flyer", because, by standards back then he was probably one of the biggest risk takers, and if a young Shawn Michaels had come along in the Attitude Era climate i think there is a damn good chance he would of taken these risks, unfortunately his body got fucked, whenver you mentioning him being "Away" you may it sound like he was skiving, putting his feet up, like he chose to just disappear.

In all honesty BOTH guys in question are past their best.  Both were better many years ago and did better moves, HBK isn't what he was, but he's still damn good, and i understand you may not like the superman comeback, but come on dude, when he's taking the beat down nobody sells it better, he's had more blade jobs than i've had joints

As for people using Jeff Hardy's drug past against him, Shawn Michaels has had drug problems to so they were both unfortunate or stupid depending on how you look at it, in falling in to bad ways...

On a totally different subject.  I am lookin' forward to Vladimir Kozlov, i'm a sucker for a goofy gimmick, and the "I love Double Double E" cracks me up every time.....

Guys be prepared. Wrestlemania 24 or sooner. 

Vladimir Kozlov vs John Cena (WWE Championship) Basically just Rocky vs Drago. Cena is already got a Rocky Balboa giimick anyways, and the first thing you think of when you see Kozlov is Drago. So expect this in the future. Who knows, maybe they might get Stallone in for this match as special referee, with maybe him doing a spot at the end for Cena to get the win. Sounds like a good idea don't you guys think?

[sweet616]

it sounds like an idea that will result in my suicide

[Gnrfan]

To say that Bret carried HBK in that ironman match is goofy. It was somewhat of? a coming of age match for Shawn as you can see that he beat Hart at his own game.

You have to provide some better arguments, Gnrfan as to why HBK is so bad.

Iv'e at least done the same when I've discussed how shitty Angle is considering his potential.

I have. he is not a great technical wrestler . . he would tell you that himself. All im saying is that Jeff and HBK are not that different. they both entertain through against the odds characters and do risky moves. although jeff does more.

thats all im saying.

The Angle vs HBK matches i didn't think were that great personally. too much ground and not enough diversty. and there in lies the problem. HBK doesn't provide fans with his full potential week in week out like Jeff does i.e. jeff flys to the outside everymatch . . whisper in the wind . . . twist of fate  . . . swanton . . . . neckbreaker. every match is the same yeah but he has more than 3 moves.

Bret Hart is in a different league to HBK in my opinion. and IMO and its only an opinion HBK is the reason we have people like Jeff Hardy, just they do it night in night out and don't disappear from wrestling for four years to fix their back i.e. get alot of money for fuck all work.

I understand why people like HBK, but i find him boring in the ring and i think for a guy who has been at the top for this many years he hasn't had that many 'Great' matches. and there are alot of people who give more to the ring than him who never get credit . . like RVD, Jeff Hardy, Edge, Paul London, Chris Benoit and Y2J too name a few.

[Gnrfan]

Ivan Drago is from Rocky 4, fool!

my bad!

What does everyone make of this VKM thing coz i just think its stupid! It takes away from all the good TNA has to offer and because they are on it means we are deprieved of people like Alex Shelly and Jay Lethal on a regular basis.

Even Raven!

Does anyone else think that HHH's injury makes it nearly impossible to continue their ridiculas quest?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpx0FSyLPZQ&mode=related&search=

apprently they set a challenge and loads of fans turned up, and no one showed and the fans apprently got pissed.

i think its stupid what TNA are doing with VKM, its easy to tell there just doing it to get more publicity and try to make everyone hate DX & WWE. Also the fact that VKM didn't even show up themselves proves the fact they only talk the talk. Ever since TNA has started doing this has made me watch TNA less and made it obvious that they are getting more pathetic since Vince Russo went back to them

Never have truer words been spoken. VKM suck ass

[sweet616]

ok i will incrip jeff hardy talking back stage with his apponent pre match

oh so am gona hit the ring do my thing on the middle rope

ok then we just do your match from last week with my moves

yeah they eat it up man even when am slacking

which is more often then not

yeah who needs to be a good wrestler and charisma when you can fall off a ladder kill yourself and others

in match



jeff beats down
jaw braker
oponant leaves ring
plancha to outside
in ring
jeff does spin kick
opponant takes control
whisper in the wind hit or miss if missed repeat later
heel beat down
twist of fait
swanton bomb...if missed loses or repeats


123...crowd OmGZ JeFfS MaTcH WaS So OrIgInAl !!! TeAm XtREeEeeEe 4 EvA

[Axl4Life]

To say that Bret carried HBK in that ironman match is goofy. It was somewhat of  a coming of age match for Shawn as you can see that he beat Hart at his own game.

You have to provide some better arguments, Gnrfan as to why HBK is so bad.

Iv'e at least done the same when I've discussed how shitty Angle is considering his potential.

I have. he is not a great technical wrestler . . he would tell you that himself. All im saying is that Jeff and HBK are not that different. they both entertain through against the odds characters and do risky moves. although jeff does more.

thats all im saying.

The Angle vs HBK matches i didn't think were that great personally. too much ground and not enough diversty. and there in lies the problem. HBK doesn't provide fans with his full potential week in week out like Jeff does i.e. jeff flys to the outside everymatch . . whisper in the wind . . . twist of fate  . . . swanton . . . . neckbreaker. every match is the same yeah but he has more than 3 moves.

Bret Hart is in a different league to HBK in my opinion. and IMO and its only an opinion HBK is the reason we have people like Jeff Hardy, just they do it night in night out and don't disappear from wrestling for four years to fix their back i.e. get alot of money for fuck all work.

I understand why people like HBK, but i find him boring in the ring and i think for a guy who has been at the top for this many years he hasn't had that many 'Great' matches. and there are alot of people who give more to the ring than him who never get credit . . like RVD, Jeff Hardy, Edge, Paul London, Chris Benoit and Y2J too name a few.

I understand what your saying about HBK, and that its the same three moves all the time, but it's because he's put his body on the line for the last 16 years and Im sure in about another 10 years (if he's lucky to last tha long) Jeff Hardy will become the same. And I know you think Hardy does more crazy stunts than HBK which is true, but your forgetting the fact that HBK has come from a different generation of wrestling. It wasn't that extreme back then in the prime days of Michaels. Thats why him jumping off the ladder in his ladder match was classed as "a spectacular wrestlemania moment" because it was the first of that kind of thing that fans have ever seen. HBK paved the way for guys like Hardy, and if it wasn't for HBK there likely wouldn't be the Jeff Hardy that we all know, and fear for every week because as Jeff has often said he grew up idoising HBK, and wanted to become just like him, so in retrospect Jeff is a modern day HBK when it comes to wrestling, and thats were the similarities end. Like come on, HBK is 41, and Jeff is like 32. You don't honestly expect the Heart Break Kid to be doin things like whisper in the wind now? Oh, and  Oh, and regarding the fact about the "same couple of moves" HBK has earned the right  and the respect from the fans, because he has done so much for the business (unlike  Cena) so I don't know about you,  but  the flying forearm, the nip up, the atomic drop, the scoop slam, the elbow drop, and sweet chin music, still whips fans across the world into a frenzy, no matter how many times he does it. I don't know about you but HBK vs guys like Angle, HHH, Jericho, etc were all classics and will go down in history as classics, and these are only the matches from 2002 and on. HBK is a living legend and in my opinion is one of, if not, the greatest in ring performer the wrestling world has ever seen.


Don't mean to be a bitch here GNR fan, jus expressing my opinion, and you are more than welcome to express yours man, no hard feelings!
 

(Oh, and for the record, that flying plancha at NYR through the middle rope, was fuckin awesome)

[sweet616]

jeffs about 27 lol


and to me he past his prime when they did the 4way tlc match on sd. his TNA run was ....it was more like a walk that he got out breath during lol


HBK!!! for TNA!!! lol

[slash666]

Jeff is 29 actually

[Gnrfan]

I understand what your saying about HBK, and that its the same three moves all the time, but it's because he's put his body on the line for the last 16 years

Dont forget his 4 years out where he found god and did made a fortune for doing nothing so you could say 12 years if you were being picky  . . and i am

And I know you think Hardy does more crazy stunts than HBK which is true, but your forgetting the fact that HBK has come from a different generation of wrestling. It wasn't that extreme back then in the prime days of Michaels. Thats why him jumping off the ladder in his ladder match was classed as "a spectacular wrestlemania moment" because it was the first of that kind of thing that fans have ever seen.

Yeah a generation that was based on real mat skills which had to change when HBK came in. Which for me took ages to return.

I agree about the wrestlemania match being a great moment. and a first of its kind. But as much as he moved the bar then . . others including jeff hardy have moved the bar even higher.

HBK paved the way for guys like Hardy, and if it wasn't for HBK there likely wouldn't be the Jeff Hardy that we all know, and fear for every week because as Jeff has often said he grew up idoising HBK, and wanted to become just like him, so in retrospect Jeff is a modern day HBK when it comes to wrestling, and thats were the similarities end.

thats my point. in ring they are very similar . . . i'd admit that HBK is a better entertainer i.e. mic and storylines but in ring skills be it different generation or not Jeff has taken HBK's wrestling style and made it more extreme and more exciting.

Jeff is a modern day HBK. thats been my point all along.

Like come on, HBK is 41, and Jeff is like 32. You don't honestly expect the Heart Break Kid to be doin things like whisper in the wind now?

No i dont and obviously as you get older you can do less moves (altho someone should tell Terry Funk, Sabu and Ric Flair that) but i'd argue that Jeff's style is more career threatening than HBK's ever was. Lets not forget despite some missile dropkicks in his rocker days the 1st 3 or so years HBK's wrestling was pretty standard stuff i.e. not anything too risky. Like you said different era, less frequent and no where near a ladder or anything of any true danger.

Oh, and  Oh, and regarding the fact about the "same couple of moves" HBK has earned the right  and the respect from the fans, because he has done so much for the business (unlike  Cena) so I don't know about you,  but  the flying forearm, the nip up, the atomic drop, the scoop slam, the elbow drop, and sweet chin music, still whips fans across the world into a frenzy, no matter how many times he does it.

Whats his biggest achievment . . helping get rid of Bret Hart in a sneaky underhand way. so he could have his sucsess?

yeah i know HBK is popular thats not the discussion, what i'm saying is he is overated and not as exciting as people make him out to be in the ring . . out of it yeah hilarious . . on a mic great . . but in the ring he is average just like people like Jeff and Alot of other wrestlers as where other wrestlers who can be as exciting are told not to do moves coz they might get too over and make established stars look stupid.

Maybe they have to help vince get rid of a 10 year pro before they are allowed their big push

Cena is a dick and has done nothing to deserve what he has . . agreed

I don't know about you but HBK vs guys like Angle, HHH, Jericho, etc were all classics and will go down in history as classics, and these are only the matches from 2002 and on. HBK is a living legend and in my opinion is one of, if not, the greatest in ring performer the wrestling world has ever seen.

Classics is a word used too much these days in wrestling.

Ricky Steamboat vs Randy Savage @ WM III

Hulk Hogan vs Andre The Giant @ WM III

Hogan vs Warrior @ WM 7 (i think)

Austin vs Bret @ WM 13 ( i think)

Bret vs Bulldog @summerslam '92

Bret vs Owen @ WM 10

HBK vs Razor Ramon @ WM10

Angle vs Shane'o mac @

Undertaker vs mankind @ KOTR '98 was it

Austin vs Rock

Kane vs Taker @ WM 14

Beniot vs Angle

Edge and Christian vs The Hardys (ladder match)

Rock vs Hogan

TLC Series ( i think WM17 was the best match tho)

there are some that i can think of its just opinion but they are classics in my book for all different reasons but my point is that for me despite being at the top for like 10 years (albeit he did have some time off ) he is still not in that many classic matches.

When i think of HBK i think of that Ladder match with Razor, him falling off the side of the cell, him throwing jannety through the barber shop window (which i loved by the way), montreal and him sitting at home collecting money for 4 years coz apprantly it takes that long to get it fixed . . . although HHH injury, they got him in quick . . . surgeries must have book solid hey

like i said before no one can convince me HBK is a good mat wrestler . . but he is a good performer if you like his style i just don't. but to say maybe the greatest in ring performer is just nuts, i know its opinion but i'm not sure he'll be in most in the knows top 5

Don't mean to be a bitch here GNR fan, jus expressing my opinion, and you are more than welcome to express yours man, no hard feelings!
 

(Oh, and for the record, that flying plancha at NYR through the middle rope, was fuckin awesome)

no i have this argument with my mate all the time. i've always been a Bret fan and he's always been a HBK fan.

Its kinda good to hear what people think. even if i feel like its me against the world is against me(which oddly is HBK's character when he was at his prime )

and yeah the plancha was good shame he only thought of it on the fly. Maybe more of his partners should get injured then he might keep doing some half exciting moves

[Sober_times]

Gnrfan, your basis on HBK's 4 year break is based on rumor and/or slander written against HBK. The man had a serious back injury, based on his and the wwe's official statements it was career threatening therefore he took a step back to recover from said injury. I am positve if he is so egotistical as you proclaim he would not been able to stand out and let other guys take the reigns of the wwe if he was capable of being there to stop them. Why would he kick brett hart out of wwe just to take 4 years off and let other guys go the top when he was the top??? Its total b.s. that he faked his injury and i hate it when people try to say he did.

On the Bret Hart thing, Bret Hart like any other top wrestler was jealous that he wasn't the top guy anymore in the buisness. All wrestlers want to be the top guy and when their replaced their not happy. At a time when the ratings war was high and millions of dollars and competition is at stake you can't have morals. I'm a huge fan of Bret Hart and what he did for wrestling (i think he's one of the best ever) but i dont blame Vince for doing what he did to him. I dont blame Michaels for doing it to stay on top of wwe, i feel if the posistions had been switched (i.e. Michaels on his way out and Brett becoming a star) i think Brett would have done the same thing. They both hated eachother. And remember it was Brett's decisicion to leave WWE for WCW, Vince just chose the way he was leaving. I.E. a screw job and not a champion.

Michaels is one of the top performers ever, he's up there with Austin, Hogan, The Rock, Brett Hart, just too name a few. Hardy will never ever be in that class. Hardy is a great extreme performer, but he is not a great match maker. Michaels has been in all different kinds of matches, and made other wrestlers look great. Hardy looks good in extreme format outside of that he has absolutely nothing to offer. His mic skills, and personality are no where near where HBK's is or was. His in ring ability is all extreme and misses spots left and right. Michaels has little variety but everything he does looks good (mostly). He sells it well, and the crowd still digs it, even after so many years. Michaels has better ring work than Hardy ever will, even if its little variety, its still a hell of lot better than what many have attempted or have ever had.



Oh, and Angle vs. Shane O Mac was at King of the Ring 2001.?

[Hammy]

Hogan vs Warrior @ WM 7 (i think)

Six 

Gnrfan, your basis on HBK's 4 year break is based on rumor and/or slander written against HBK. The man had a serious back injury, based on his and the wwe's official statements it was career threatening therefore he took a step back to recover from said injury. I am positve if he is so egotistical as you proclaim he would not been able to stand out and let other guys take the reigns of the wwe if he was capable of being there to stop them. Why would he kick brett hart out of wwe just to take 4 years off and let other guys go the top when he was the top??? Its total b.s. that he faked his injury and i hate it when people try to say he did.

His injury was genuine, hence the reason after getting it he only wrestled one more match and you could clearly see he was in pain throughout it.

As for his time off, first off, he had some drug problems, but he got over those.

Secondly he did not "Sit on his ass for four years".

He initially, as you know, had time as an on air character and then after that he opened his OWN wrestling academy, one that has produced:

Brian Kendrick, Paul London, Bryan Danielson, Lance Cade, Hernandez (Of LAX), Maverick Matt as well as many others.

And this notion that he would not be in the Top 5 Mat Wrestlers of all time is spot on, he certainly would not be, he'd be Top 50-100 though, Jeff Hardy would not make the Top 1000, likening their in-ring skills and abilities is an insult to Shawn Michaels.

[slash666]

Hogan vs Warrior @ WM 7 (i think)

Six?

Gnrfan, your basis on HBK's 4 year break is based on rumor and/or slander written against HBK. The man had a serious back injury, based on his and the wwe's official statements it was career threatening therefore he took a step back to recover from said injury. I am positve if he is so egotistical as you proclaim he would not been able to stand out and let other guys take the reigns of the wwe if he was capable of being there to stop them. Why would he kick brett hart out of wwe just to take 4 years off and let other guys go the top when he was the top??? Its total b.s. that he faked his injury and i hate it when people try to say he did.

His injury was genuine, hence the reason after getting it he only wrestled one more match and you could clearly see he was in pain throughout it.

As for his time off, first off, he had some drug problems, but he got over those.

Secondly he did not "Sit on his ass for four years".

He initially, as you know, had time as an on air character and then after that he opened his OWN wrestling academy, one that has produced:

Brian Kendrick, Paul London, Bryan Danielson, Lance Cade, Hernandez (Of LAX), Maverick Matt as well as many others.

And this notion that he would not be in the Top 5 Mat Wrestlers of all time is spot on, he certainly would not be, he'd be Top 50-100 though, Jeff Hardy would not make the Top 1000, likening their in-ring skills and abilities is an insult to Shawn Michaels.

absolutally spot on Stoned!

[Gnrfan]

Gnrfan, your basis on HBK's 4 year break is based on rumor and/or slander written against HBK. The man had a serious back injury, based on his and the wwe's official statements it was career threatening therefore he took a step back to recover from said injury. I am positve if he is so egotistical as you proclaim he would not been able to stand out and let other guys take the reigns of the wwe if he was capable of being there to stop them. Why would he kick brett hart out of wwe just to take 4 years off and let other guys go the top when he was the top??? Its total b.s. that he faked his injury and i hate it when people try to say he did.

Even by HBK's own admission he was ready for in ring duty 14 months before he returned . . . why coz he wasn't in the right frame of mind to return. i wish Vince wasn't in the frame of mind to pay him, but i guess people of that moral standing stick together

On the Bret Hart thing, Bret Hart like any other top wrestler was jealous that he wasn't the top guy anymore in the buisness. All wrestlers want to be the top guy and when their replaced their not happy. At a time when the ratings war was high and millions of dollars and competition is at stake you can't have morals. I'm a huge fan of Bret Hart and what he did for wrestling (i think he's one of the best ever) but i dont blame Vince for doing what he did to him. I dont blame Michaels for doing it to stay on top of wwe, i feel if the posistions had been switched (i.e. Michaels on his way out and Brett becoming a star) i think Brett would have done the same thing. They both hated eachother. And remember it was Brett's decisicion to leave WWE for WCW, Vince just chose the way he was leaving. I.E. a screw job and not a champion

Wrong!

Vince renaged on a 10 year contract with Bret after agreeing to it, and vince would only offer him a two year offer on less money that he was on. Thats why Bret left

Michaels is one of the top performers ever, he's up there with Austin, Hogan, The Rock, Brett Hart, just too name a few. Hardy will never ever be in that class. Hardy is a great extreme performer, but he is not a great match maker.

HBK came 9th in the all time best wrestlers as chosen by WWE fans, wrestlers and workers last year.

Hogan, Bret and Austin were 1,2,3.

Gnrfan, your basis on HBK's 4 year break is based on rumor and/or slander written against HBK. The man had a serious back injury, based on his and the wwe's official statements it was career threatening therefore he took a step back to recover from said injury. I am positve if he is so egotistical as you proclaim he would not been able to stand out and let other guys take the reigns of the wwe if he was capable of being there to stop them. Why would he kick brett hart out of wwe just to take 4 years off and let other guys go the top when he was the top??? Its total b.s. that he faked his injury and i hate it when people try to say he did.

On the Bret Hart thing, Bret Hart like any other top wrestler was jealous that he wasn't the top guy anymore in the buisness. All wrestlers want to be the top guy and when their replaced their not happy. At a time when the ratings war was high and millions of dollars and competition is at stake you can't have morals. I'm a huge fan of Bret Hart and what he did for wrestling (i think he's one of the best ever) but i dont blame Vince for doing what he did to him. I dont blame Michaels for doing it to stay on top of wwe, i feel if the posistions had been switched (i.e. Michaels on his way out and Brett becoming a star) i think Brett would have done the same thing. They both hated eachother. And remember it was Brett's decisicion to leave WWE for WCW, Vince just chose the way he was leaving. I.E. a screw job and not a champion.

"The most horrific thing ever in wrestling" that was Mark callaways reaction to what HBK and Vince did.

"It makes you wonder if you wanna work for such a jerk, coz if he'd do that to Bret, who had given so much to the company. Think what he'd do to me" that was Mick Foleys reaction.

I love it when people try to stick up for HBK on this. He was a wanker. End of.

[Hammy]

HBK came 9th in the all time best wrestlers as chosen by WWE fans, wrestlers and workers last year.

Hogan, Bret and Austin were 1,2,3.

Yeah but where was Jeff Hardy?

Seriously on the screwjob thing he was an asshole, as was Vince, but this isn't who's the "Nicest" wrestler, he was a wanker, agreed.

I think we have all exhausted this topic and we won't agree on everything.

We all agree HBK is a great entertainer and that Jeff Hardy has done some one of a kind holy shit spots.

I have nay more to say on this, 'tis making my head hurt.

[Gnrfan]

I never said Jeff was a legend or even that he is better than HBK

I just said that him and HBK are similar wrestlers yet people always come out with shit about wrestlers like jeff because of their style. as where people like HBK get away with it coz they 'have done so much for the business'.

Well its not about that. People are excited by what they like and not how much they have given in the past.

And i'm saying that HBK and Jeff are very much alike in the ring. But people say HBK can wrestle and Jeff can't its silly. Its like people are blinded by the properganda that WWE sells.

HBK came 9th in the all time best wrestlers as chosen by WWE fans, wrestlers and workers last year.

Hogan, Bret and Austin were 1,2,3.

We all agree HBK is a great entertainer and that Jeff Hardy has done some one of a kind holy shit spots.

I have nay more to say on this, 'tis making my head hurt.

Yep i say in ring they are both great enertainers. And i'm sure Hardy loves HBK and has basically taken his style and adapted it . . . which is what i've been saying.

I tried to get off this subject earlier but people kept talking about it.

Like stoned said lets not talk about it again

I love you all.

Don't suppose i could swap one of my wrestlers with HBK in the game can i?