Wrestling...thats right, Wrestling!

[Bill 213]

I can think of many reasons WCW went to shit:

-Bischoff making a mockery of the World Title by putting it around David Arquette
-Bischoff abandoning WCW to work on his personal agenda in television
-Letting Hogan, Nash, Goldberg, Sting, Flair all try to exercise creative control at the same time
-Vince Russo and his overnight change of WCW.
-Jeff Jarrett being pushed to main event status.
-Having 10000 stables.
-Pushing Nitro to 3 hours and making each Nitro basically a ppv caliber event (I mean yeah it's cool to watch, but then you're so sick of seeing the same match week after week)
   This is the reason WWF prospered so much in the hey day.....They prepped a match for months at a time, they'd do run-ins or interviews on Prime Time wrestling, never putting the two in a match with each other until the ppv.  This would benefit in today's wrestling by not having Edge vs. Cena and either member of DX vs. The Spirit Squad every week.  Back in those days only having four PPV's a year made them more special and I actually tried to buy everyone.  I wouldn't waste a cent on any of them today.  I can remember when it was just the Royal Rumble, Wrestlemania, SummerSlam and Survivor Series.  They were huge events compared to these monthly and bi-monthly ppv's that are an overpriced version of Raw.

[D]

Ric said that he and Hogan were actually friends but he had creative control of his character and could change the story anytime he liked.

[Evolution]

Another reason was the fact WCW only pushed one new main eventer in the Monday Night War in Goldberg. The WWF pushed Austin, The Rock, Mankind, Kane, Triple H, Kurt Angle etc.

[axl_rose_700]

Another reason was the fact WCW only pushed one new main eventer in the Monday Night War in Goldberg. The WWF pushed Austin, The Rock, Mankind, Kane, Triple H, Kurt Angle etc.

Did they have anyone else ready for a push though?!

[Evolution]

Chris Jericho? Eddie Guerrero? Chris Benoit? Yup!

[axl_rose_700]

Fair enough, seems good enough to me, I'm not big on WCW so wasn't sure but the talent they had was probably about as good as WWf's at the time and could have put on some amazing main even matches with those guys

[Evolution]

For sure, if the inmates didn't run things they could have done very well.

[Mr Cowbell ?]

I can think of many reasons WCW went to shit:

-Bischoff making a mockery of the World Title by putting it around David Arquette WCW JUMPING THE SHARK
-Bischoff abandoning WCW to work on his personal agenda in television Dont Remember that
-Letting Hogan, Nash, Goldberg, Sting, Flair all try to exercise creative control at the same time STING AND THE WHOLE STANDING IN THE RAFTERS FOR A YEAR AND SHOWING HIM EACH WEEK UP THERE WAS TERRIBLE. HAVING NWO RULE THE RING AND SPRAY PAINT PEOPLE EACH WEEK MADE THE WCW TALENT LOOK TERRIBLE.
-Vince Russo and his overnight change of WCW. You almost think that Vince McMahon paid Russo to run the WCW show so terrible.
-Jeff Jarrett being pushed to main event status. YEAH AND NOW HE HAS TO BE THE MULTI TIME, UNEARNED NWA CHAMPION of TNA and he never has had great mic skills or a character.
-Having 10000 stables. NWO, WOLFPACK NWO, 4 hoursemen and all their different members, the Giant's group, One Warroir Nation, Raven's ECW crew, LWO, it was all about gangs on gangs and not building wrestling matches.
-Pushing Nitro to 3 hours and making each Nitro basically a ppv caliber event (I mean yeah it's cool to watch, but then you're so sick of seeing the same match week after week) It also wore out the fans in attendance.  I remember when the NBA playoffs were on and they would tape an extra hour after Nitro to run on the tuesday afterwards to play on TNT and after a few dark matches, 3 hours of nitro, and the extra hour fans and the wrestlers were all tired. THey they also had THunder two days later.
? ?This is the reason WWF prospered so much in the hey day.....They prepped a match for months at a time, they'd do run-ins or interviews on Prime Time wrestling, never putting the two in a match with each other until the ppv.? This would benefit in today's wrestling by not having Edge vs. Cena and either member of DX vs. The Spirit Squad every week.? Back in those days only having four PPV's a year made them more special and I actually tried to buy everyone.? I wouldn't waste a cent on any of them today.? I can remember when it was just the Royal Rumble, Wrestlemania, SummerSlam and Survivor Series.? They were huge events compared to these monthly and bi-monthly ppv's that are an overpriced version of Raw.

They also had KOTR in the heyday which would make a WWF year look like this.  THE SHIT HIT THE FAN IN WWF when they added the IN YOUR HOUSE PPVs in the between big WWF PPVs. 

Royal Rumble.  Winner would go on to WM to get a title shot.  The rumble itself was used to push people and build fueds as certain people would eliminate their friends and foes.

At WM we would see a few good matches, a title change or so and starting fueds to run into the summer and King of the Ring

KOTR would also be 3 matches in one night and make and build more fueds and friendships that would go into the summer and fall and lead into SummerSlam.

Summerslam would be used for people to get back at their WM opponent and the last real time titles would change hands for the year.  Summerslam would also build up friendships that would lead to SS.

At Survivor Series it was always 4 ( or 5) on 4 or 5.  It was a truelly interesting match in which it was all about teamwork.  Remember The SS when we had a 4 brother Hart FOundation team to go against the King.

RR specialty was the rumble part

WM specialty was that it was the main event and original ppv

KOTR was the elimination tournament.

Summer Slam didnt have a special match but wrapped up a summer of fueds

SS had the 4 man teams.

You would enjd up getting 2-3 months on the old Raw shows, saturday morning wrestling shows to build them up.  Now you got one every month and if you count Smackdown & Raw and now ECW PPVS with the cross overs it is only a few weeks between them and they dont build them up.

THey used to market a PPV like a Monster Blockbuster movie with months to sell it in advance.  Now they market them like direct to DVD movies.

[Bill 213]

Shit I can remember when WM was the only ppv a year.  Watching wrestling in those days on regular tv, you were just glad to see anyone cool.  You'd get matches of jobbers vs. jobbers.  I remember the Survivor Series and SummerSlam both debuted in 87, then the Royal Rumble was on USA network for free in 88.  The next year they made it a PPV too.  Then came King of the Ring in 93.  Worked awesome all the way up until the attitude era when they added the In Your Houses. 

As for Bischoff abandoning WCW, he started his production company and tried venturing into other things outside of WCW.  After a while they relieved him of his job (in real life), hired Russo, but eventually brought him back.  When shit started to get really bad Bischoff wouldn't even show up to Nitro and Kevin Nash and Kevin Sullivan would have to write the show right before it went on.  Bischoff would be out in Hollywood trying to get work while WCW was sinking.  Talk about abandoning ship. 

[D]

I just went out and bought Hulk Hogan's autobiography so Im gonna read it and post some stuff he says.

[Evolution]

Get ready to piss yourself then. Some of his claims in that book are hilariously false.

[Evolution]

Johnny Nuts sent in the following:

A fight broke out after the ECW House Show last night at the old ECW arena in Philly. The fight allegedly involving about 10 fans was over the fact that a fan was pro-John Cena at the event and this allegedly upset a group of ECW fans.

The fight happened near the exit way after the main event between Kurt Angle and RVD. It was broken up by security after a chair was thrown in. After that, another fight broke out outside the arena. It was all over the simple fact that someone or a few people were John Cena fans. I will post more details when I get them.


Ouch!

[Hammy]

That is damn stupid, being passionate yeah, chanting stuff yeah, but fighting over it......bullshit! ?Those fans showed be disgraced, people like them give us wrestling fans a bad name........

Here's the FULL report....


World Wrestling Entertainment's version of Extreme Championship Wrestling ran their first house show last night in the very venue that gave birth to the initial ECW revolution, the ECW Arena in South Philadelphia, PA. By WWE standards, it wasn't a bad show, but if fans compared it to the old ECW (or even recent events in the venue, such as TNA's Hardcore War) they were likely left feeling unsatisfied. The thing to remember though, is that WWE isn't playing to the hardcore fans. They want ECW to be something for the masses. Last night's audience didn't seem to want that, they wanted the closure and celebration that the Hammerstein Ballroom got in 2005.
If WWE was looking to send a message to those fans wanting nostalgia that they weren't going to get it from the new ECW, it was loud and clear. Last night's show was a pure WWE production, with a WWE ring, mats around ringside (and lots of room around ringside, taking away from some of the old intimacy of the venue), and even the pre-announced message regarding WWE's proprietary rights. Fans drowned out the announcement with a "F*** you Vince" chant. None of the old ECW ring announcers were used. Justin Roberts, who will be doing all ECW events from this point on, was booed out of the building by an audience that saw him as a symbol of WWE. The Harry Slash ECW theme was only used for Paul Heyman, while the "Let the Bodies Hit the Floor" song was used to open the show.

The show started at 7:30 PM on the dot and the final match ended at exactly 9:57 PM, including an intermission and a 15 minute speech by Paul Heyman. It was structured like a WWE house show, because, no matter what the initials are and the best hopes of the fans going in, that's what it was and was always going to be. In a baffling move, WWE didn't bring a full camera set up to record the show, but did have one staffer shooting ringside footage that will likely be edited into a package for the next ECW on Sci Fi episode.

The FBI (Little Guido and Tony Mamaluke) defeated Danny Doring and Roadkill in 7:17. A good opener with the FBI playing babyface. Mamaluke hugged famous ECW fan "Hat Guy" John Bailey when he came out. Fans didn't know who were the babyfaces when the match started, but finally figured it out when Guido got a hot tag a few minutes into the match. Mamaluke did a flip senton to the floor on Doring. After Doring recovered, he held Mamaluke for Roadkill, who was on the top rope preparing to splash Guido. Roadkill then dove off the top to the floor, but Mamaluke moved and Roadkill splattered Doring. Mamaluke scored the pin on Roadkill with a DDT.

CM Punk forced Stevie Richards to tap out to The Anaconda Vice in 9:31. From the look on his face and how hard he worked, Richards was really excited to be in the Arena and even did the old Big Stevie Cool pose before the match. Punk came out to his old ROH theme song and the fans were chanting his name. They had a really good competitive match which included Punk applying a unique submission while Richards was in the ropes. They even teased the Pepsi Plunge but Richards backdropped him off the top into the ring. Richards drilled Punk with one hell of a Steviekick. Punk finally forced Richards to tap out. After the match, Richards and Punk shook hands and Richards told him to stay in the ring, because he had earned it, then left. Punk stood over the ECW letters on the mat and read them out loud before smirking and acknowledging the fans. If you were a fan of Punk, it was a cool moment. One of the better matches on the show. Punk appeared to be bleeding from his ear after the match, but not sure what caused the cut.

They then held an Extreme Bikini contest. The crowd didn't know what to make of this one at all. The contestants were Francine, Trinity, and Kelly. Francine won simply because the crowd loved her as she was ECW to them and the others were outsiders. Kelly looked as if she was having problems walking in the ring wearing heels. After Francine won, Kelly got in her face and was shoved down. I think Kelly was legitimately shaken by the bump given the way she was out. Francine and Trinity then got in each other's face, teased a catfight and gave the fans what they wanted. The crowd liked that. Francine ended up on the floor. Trinity went to the top and hit a big moonsault to the floor, but Francine had already rolled in the ring, "outsmarting her." Francine then grabbed Kelly and began choking her. Kelly wasn't selling at all and was completely exposed as being what she is, a really young kid who's probably not ready for this. Francine asked the crowd if they wanted her to take off Kelly's top, but Mike Knox hit the ring and covered her up. He knocked Francine to the mat.

Balls Mahoney's music hit and he made the save. This started an immediate match. Mahoney and Knox were both trying but the crowd had no interest in watching Knox wrestle and crapped all over him since they didn't know who he was. They finally got into yelling "Balls" for Mahoney's punches. Mahoney went to grab his chair but the referee Mike Posey took it away. The entire crowd deflated when that happened. Mahoney finally got it and swung, but missed and Knox rolled him up and hooked the tights for the pin at 8:39. The crowd hated the finish and didn't buy it at all.

Sabu defeated CW Anderson by submission with the Camel Clutch at 9:17. No music for Sabu's entrance. Sabu was busted open hardway at some point. They worked a lot on the mat early and brawled around ringside. Sabu tied Anderson's arm up around a ringpost and threw a chair at it. Sabu went to get a table but one of the legs were busted, so it ended up set up at a 45 degree angle. He put Anderson on it and hit an Arabian Facebuster through it while Anderson was facedown. He then locked Anderson in the clutch for the finish. The match was OK but a lot shorter than anyone would have expected with these two. Fans applauded both after the match out of respect.

WWE announced it was time for intermission. The crowd seemed pretty taken aback by that. During intermission, several WWE staffers were working hard to clean up any trace of blood in the ring.

When we returned from intermission, The Sandman pinned Justin Credible in a Dueling Canes match with the White Russian Legsweep in just 2:39. Credible came out to his old ECW music while Sandman came out to his WWE theme. The crowd popped for him, but it was in a subdued way as it was obvious they wanted the "Enter Sandman" entrance they've been accustomed to all these years. Sandman did his entrance around the building, but it was like watching a live version of a Sandman entrance on DVD with the music edited out. The flavor is totally lost. Some fans chanted, "F*** that song" during the ring introductions. The match being so short turned a portion of the crowd on the show, as they began chanting, "This show sucks."

[Hammy]

Paul Heyman came out. He got a big pop. He was going to speak, then dropped the mic and ran out of the ring to hug "Hat Guy." When he returned, Heyman said, "On a shoot, I don't care what losers and wannabes and porno rejects have run here. I have been dying for five years to say we are home in the ECW Arena!" The crowd popped and chanted, "Welcome back." Heyman welcomed them back as well. Heyman put over the ECW fans and pointed out the Ted "Rocco Rock" Petty banner hanging in the venue, saying that he misses Petty and thanks him. He said that he thanks everyone who was part of ECW and can't be here, whether it's The Public Enemy, Shane Douglas, or the Dudley Boyz. He said that they had to make some compromises, but the bottom line is ECW is back. Some of the fans chanted "This show sucks." Heyman kept trying to win them back over, first by insulting Justin Roberts and then by insulting a John Cena fan who was being vocal. He said that they had to make compromises like the "dancer on Sci Fi" and Sandman's music, but in the end they will overcome them anyway. Fans rejected it somewhat and Heyman asked them, "If you had to give your left nut to bring back ECW, wouldn't you do it?" Heyman pushed the July 4th event at the Wachovia Center. The crowd turned on that in a big way, rejecting it. Heyman tried to get across that they needed all the ECW fans to come and show the ECW atmosphere like the Hammerstein fans did, or else ECW would never get it's own taping. He pushed that he didn't care about Raw or Smackdown and buried them to try and get the fans behind him. There were two reactions from the crowd. Those who loved it and those who were trying to shout Heyman down. To me, this was the most interesting part of the show in many ways as you had the old ECW fans continuing to rebel against the machine, only now Paul Heyman was part of the machine. Watching Heyman trying to maneuver to win over the fans was really something. It was surreal to watch fans yelling, "Sellout" at Heyman.

Heyman then gave a big introduction to someone he described as breaking his neck and back for ECW and who never sold out for anyone, Tommy Dreamer. Dreamer received the biggest pop of the night at this point and looked like he had never been happier in his life when he came out. He gave a speech saying that earlier today, he thought he was going to miss the show as one of his daughters had fallen and gotten hurt, describing her head as "blowing up like JT Smith's." Once they took her to the the hospital and were given the all clear sign, Beulah had told him to go to the show. When he said he would stay, she told him it was the Arena and he had to go. Dreamer broke down saying how much it meant to him and his family to be back in that building when his wife is pushing him to go to the Arena after a family emergency. He said that the building, the wrestlers, and the fans were a true family and together they had raised the bar for the entire wrestling industry. Dreamer said that they would continue to do so for the new ECW because now they had to work even harder because WWE didn't believe the ECW guys were true top names. He even said that he got Balls Mahoney a job and asked the crowd, "Would you be willing to hire Balls Mahoney where you work?" He said that he may have never wrestled a match at Wrestlemania, but he main evented the ECW Arena and that was as important. The crowd loved that line. Dreamer said that the building was the litmus test and that if you could get over here, you could get over anywhere. He then called out The Big Show.

Big Show pinned Tommy Dreamer with a chokeslam through a table at 10:20 . They brawled around ringside. Big Show gave Dreamer an atomic drop onto the guard rail and they fought into the crowd. Show slammed Dreamer's head into the wall and they brawled into the bleachers. Show choked Dreamer by lifting him into the air against a wall. Dreamer kicked him low to break it and they brawled back into the ringside area. Dreamer set up a table on the floor but Show pressed and dropped him through it from the ring. He covered Dreamer on the floor but Dreamer kicked out. Dreamer got the big babyface comeback and they did some plunder, including a Stop Sign. Dreamer went to hit the Spicoli Driver through a table but couldn't lift Show. Show chokeslammed him for the pin. The crowd was behind everything that Dreamer did. They absolutely rejected and hated Big Show including "Don't Come Back" and "You can't wrestle" chant. Dreamer got a nice ovation as he left, doing a lap around ringside. He took off his shirt and gave it to "Hat Guy."

The main event was WWE/ECW champion Rob Van Dam pinning Kurt Angle with a five star frog splash. Former ECW World Television and World Tag Team champion Dean Malenko, who was working backstage as an agent, was the special referee. He got a big pop when he was announced. Surprisingly, Angle didn't get a big pop. Van Dam was greeted like the great Homecoming had taken place, blowing every other response out of the water. They had a good match, especially considering it was the night before the Vengeance PPV. The crowd was split in a big way with 50% chanting "Let's go Angle" and the other half chanting "F*** You Angle." RVD did the skateboard on the chair into the corner on Angle and also did the monkey flip onto the chair, although Angle overshot the chair and missed it. The final sequence saw Angle go to hit RVD with a chair but instead hit the ropes and clobber himself. As he turned, Van Dam hit the Van Daminator and then the frog splash in 16:40. Van Dam did a speech after the match saying how much ECW being brought back meant to him and that it has rejuvenated his spirit and career.

If you were an old school ECW fan that lived and died for the company and felt like you rode that roller coaster of triumph and setback, you probably walked out feeling let down. There were quite enough fans who rejected the show vocally, although it wasn't all of them. There were some just happy to be there at a show with the ECW letters. If you went into the show knowing it was a WWE house show, you got what you were expecting.

The interesting thing to follow will be whether ECW's other markets follow suit in the makeup of the audience. Will it be fans who want their old ECW and don't find it, and if they don't, do they stick around? Will it be WWE fans that will follow ECW because it's something new and different to follow? Can WWE find the perfect mesh of a product that will serve both demographics? To me, those are the questions raised by the house show. It will be interesting to continue to follow the evolution of this new version of a company that everyone wanted to see succeed and deep down, still does.


While some of the fans may not have left last night's Extreme Championship Wrestling house show in Philadelphia with their hopes fulfilled, nearly every member of the old ECW roster that worked the show were all said to have been touched by the reactions they received from the old faithful. Rob Van Dam, Tommy Dreamer, and Francine were said to have been especially moved backstage by the reactions they got from the fans. Stevie Richards was telling a number of people backstage after his match that he felt reborn from the crowd reaction.

As for the ECW newcomers, Big Show loved the response he got and was said to have enjoyed himself. Kurt Angle, making his in-ring debut in the venue, was said to have a blast working in the environment. A second source, however, noted that Angle pretty much kept to himself after the match and didn't really interact with the locker room.

In regard to WWE developmental talents being brought into ECW, CM Punk kept to himself in the locker room and spent most of his time watching the rest of the show, although the feeling was he fit into the locker room. Mike Knox spent the majority of his time backstage watching the matches, but didn't really interact with anyone. The feeling among some I spoke to was that Kelly was in way over her head in front of that audience as she had no frame of reference and no background in wrestling.

Paul Heyman was said to have been happy with the reaction from the fans, and predicted to several backstage there would be dissenters in the crowd, according to two sources.

There was no "rah rah" speeches from Paul Heyman before the show addressing the locker room. Dean Malenko spoke to the wrestlers before the show, instructing them not to do anything over the rails or involving blood without getting clearance from the agents and to not take any undue risks.

WWE agent Steve Keirn sat at ringside taking notes on the show.

http://www.pwinsider.com/ViewArticle.asp?id=18774&p=1[/i]

[Bill 213]

Johnny Nuts sent in the following:

A fight broke out after the ECW House Show last night at the old ECW arena in Philly. The fight allegedly involving about 10 fans was over the fact that a fan was pro-John Cena at the event and this allegedly upset a group of ECW fans.

The fight happened near the exit way after the main event between Kurt Angle and RVD. It was broken up by security after a chair was thrown in. After that, another fight broke out outside the arena. It was all over the simple fact that someone or a few people were John Cena fans. I will post more details when I get them.


Ouch!

I can't believe that's all that happened.........seriously dude I thought it'd be an all out riot at that show. ?That place is nothing to screw around with especially during an ECW event. ?What's sad is that it was probably a kid who didn't know any better of where he was going. ?

[Evolution]

C.M Punk's off to ECW then! I'm expecting a big push for him. Heyman's supposedly big on him as are the IWC.

[Hammy]

Vengence was pretty good.  The 2 Title matches were very good.  I was shocked when Johnny Nitro won he performed well though, big improvement, Carlito stole the show for me he's getting better all the time, he did some amazing stuff in that match, definately match of the night for me.  The D-X match was fun although predictable i found Johnny hilarious with that Karate Kid stuff and that kick of his is lethal.  Flair vs Foley sucked, the reasoning obviously being this is the start of the feud and that's why we got the cheap finish and we'll have to wait 'til the feuds conclusion to actually get a decent match and finish.  Kane vs. Imposter Kane stunk!  Sabu vs John Cena was good but too short.  Angle vs Orton was ok but not a patch on any of their past matches.  Umaga's match was an expected, boring, squash.  Overall pretty enjoyable show, nothing remarkable but worth watching all the same.....

[Bill 213]

RVD faces Cena tonight on Raw.....99% chance Cena will win the belt.......WHYYYYYYYYYYY.  Cena is the last person they should put the title on now.  But he'll drop it to Edge at SummerSlam then Edge will start a fued with HHH I guess.

[D]

Im praying for either an RVD win or a DQ something.

If Cena wins, Rob is gonna pass me up in the WWE GAME!!!!!!!!!!!

[Evolution]

Well done to Nitro, but agreed in Carlito being MVP of the match.

Full credit to Fake Kane for keeping his hair on all match!