Wrestling...thats right, Wrestling!

[Hammy]

The years have just taken there toll on Steiner's body, back in the day he could have 5-star matches, watching the Nitro's in '96 at the moment and seeing all the suplexes and the picture perfect frankensteiners he nailed every match.  He's definately been used better in TNA but he's got a second wind so to speak, he was so broken down in WWE, I remember the reports saying he took 2+ hours to warm up for matches.

Edit: Austin and Foley were quite the wrestlers when they wanted to be, not just hardcore and or brawling stars.  Austin became infamous and more popular as the brawling SOB but prior to that he had some great "pure" wrestling bouts, his '96 bout with Bret, his '94 one with Steamboat, his time teaming with Pillman.  Also Foley's Mind Games match with HBK shows Foley doesn't have to rely on being a spot monkey (that's just the way fans prefer it)

[Izzy]

Kingston ain't Nigerian.

What?

He's from Africa - they are all the same surely?

after all - aren't all English people posh, all Spanish people ''from the streets'', all Russians communists, all Iranians crazed Jihadists?

It would appear my understanding of nationality has been corrupted by one too many editions of RAW...

[Hammy]

Kingston ain't Nigerian.

What?

He's from Africa - they are all the same surely?

after all - aren't all English people posh, all Spanish people ''from the streets'', all Russians communists, all Iranians crazed Jihadists?

It would appear my understanding of nationality has been corrupted by one too many editions of RAW...

I still can't believe they had the babyface tag team of Cryme Tyme in England on RAW going "Euros, Euros Yeah! Yeah!" 

[AtariLegend]

Kingston ain't Nigerian.

What?

He's from Africa - they are all the same surely?

after all - aren't all English people posh, all Spanish people ''from the streets'', all Russians communists, all Iranians crazed Jihadists?

It would appear my understanding of nationality has been corrupted by one too many editions of RAW...

I still can't believe they had the babyface tag team of Cryme Tyme in England on RAW going "Euros, Euros Yeah! Yeah!" 

I thought the not knowing that Belfast is in Northern Ireland and Guinness was created in Dublin was worse... 

[slash666]

A heel doesn't have to be excited, they have to be hated which is obviously working with you. Try keep up.

You really are clueless - but please continue to try and get one over on me. I find it amusing

A heel is supposed to be loved - just loved in a different way

Your supposed to get a kick out of booing them, seeing the face triumph etc. Attitude era was based around the realisation that the heel was often more liked than the face

Austin was always a heel - the ''bad'' guy, the rogue up to no good, but you loved him anyway

Kurt Angle is the ultimate example - he's a heel, but people love him, they love his ''evil'', his greed and his maniacal ways

A good hero is like a great comic book villian - do you ''hate'' Magneto, Venom, Darth Vader??

If you actually hate them then in what sense are you actually enjoying what you watch?

Heel, face, announcer, referee - the show is World Wrestling Entertainiment, its supposed to be entertaining - devious villians and brave heros battling away for something which we believe is some mythical prize

Wrestling is just theatre (the presence of the crowd is the give away) - it needs larger than life characters

Erm, no. A heel is meant to be hated, only people like us - smarks are usually in favour of heels. You think that when those people ambushed Jericho they just got a kick out of booing him? No they actually hated him which is why Jericho does his job so well, just like Orton does & JBL did.

Comic books? Ha I find it hilarious someone is making me out to be immature yet loves comics & films about cars turning into machines? How ironic.

You forget that the largest target audience for WWE at the minute is kids, thats where the money is for them and fair play for them going PG it makes business sense. Anyway, I agree with your points of wrestling needing larger than life characters, its just that kids don't get the same joy out of wrestling, they like to see the good guys win and hate the bad guys its just how pro wrestling has always been intended to be presented.

R.E. Kofi, he's actually from Ghana and his mother is Jamaican so its not exactly anything fake.

Wow can't believe your even condemning a show finishing on time, God damn WWE for having a ending that entices people to watch again next week, what unthoughtful bastards for not allowing Izzy to go to bed dull & bored and keeping him up past his bed time. You know TNA have had live shows which ended in an "important" resolution, kinda hypocritical isn't it since TNA can do no wrong in your oh so wonderful brain.

Must try harder? Ha cute, are you really that illiterate that you have to write in caps? Looks like someones failing his GCSE's.

He's got this absurd physique that leaves u wondering if its the result of accident or design

He's everything a heel aspires to be - he's entertaining

1. No, just the steroids.

2. No, faces want to be entertaining, heels generally want to be hated. (Excluding comic heels like Santino)

[BlowUpYourVideo]

Completely random thought which has nothing to do with the discussion at hand: the phrase "each and every one of you" is overrused in wrestling promos. Why not just "each of you" or "all of you"?? I've noticed it tends to be heels who use it (hey, that's related to the discussion at hand ).

I remember Matt Hardy said it multiple times in a recent promo. Jericho says it too...

[Izzy]

Erm, no. A heel is meant to be hated, only people like us - smarks are usually in favour of heels.

Nah, your a mark

You think that when those people ambushed Jericho they just got a kick out of booing him? No they actually hated him which is why Jericho does his job so well, just like Orton does & JBL did.

They ''hated'' a fictional character

''Chris Jericho'' doesnt exist - he's a character. Newsflash - 'The Rock' isnt a real person either

If they ''hate'' a fictional character then...we'll, they are probably some of the many idiots that fill this planet, there sociopathic behavious has little to do with wrestling

Comic books? Ha I find it hilarious someone is making me out to be immature yet loves comics & films about cars turning into machines? How ironic.

Never read a comic in my life - I was using famous literary characters that you would be familiar with

If I spoke of 4th century Brazilian warlords no doubt my point would be lost....

You forget that the largest target audience for WWE at the minute is kids, thats where the money is for them and fair play for them going PG it makes business sense. Anyway, I agree with your points of wrestling needing larger than life characters, its just that kids don't get the same joy out of wrestling, they like to see the good guys win and hate the bad guys its just how pro wrestling has always been intended to be presented.

Children arent idiots, and there are plenty of 8 year olds in WWE crowds cheering heels - as I sat next to thousands of them at last weeks Smackdown I toss that in as my ''evidence''.

Wrestlers are fictional characters, they have scripted conversations, you actually ''hate'' them?

R.E. Kofi, he's actually from Ghana and his mother is Jamaican so its not exactly anything fake.

Nothing fake about Kofi Kingston eh? Fair enough...

Wow can't believe your even condemning a show finishing on time, God damn WWE for having a ending that entices people to watch again next week, what unthoughtful bastards for not allowing Izzy to go to bed dull & bored and keeping him up past his bed time. You know TNA have had live shows which ended in an "important" resolution, kinda hypocritical isn't it since TNA can do no wrong in your oh so wonderful brain.

I was DEFENDING the absurdity of wrestling - people only seem to see it in TNA, I was pointing out its inherant in WWE too.

People cant moan about daft stuff in TNA and just pretend its not there in WWE

Remember - wrestling is fake, its basically ballet

Must try harder? Ha cute, are you really that illiterate that you have to write in caps? Looks like someones failing his GCSE's.

Ouch, is my face red

I just assumed your teacher wrote 'Must try harder' in capitals on your homework...

...so they actually just write it in lower case?

Man - was I wide of the mark!

1. No, just the steroids.

Steiner? Steroids? No way!

...that you even felt the need to write that has me wondering...

2. No, faces want to be entertaining, heels generally want to be hated. (Excluding comic heels like Santino)

Not real man, not real.

A heel is just an ''actor'' (damn, for want of a teletubby based example right now...)

Wrestling is now split between a promotion for adults and a promotion aimed at younger people - I suppose you go for the one that more closely matches your age

[Izzy]

Superb Impact again this week

Such a big fan of the Beautiful People - they've got their gimmick down to an art form. I never thought I'd view women's wrestling as anything more than a joke but TNA can be proud of what its done. The Knockout division is starting to eclipse the rest for entertainment. Awesome Kong has been superbly booked - a woman delivering a chokeslam, awesome!

Damn shame TNA seem to be letting Roxxi go, blading in a women's match was quite shocking, TNA need to keep hold of those that can 'cross the line'

More nods to Taz's arrival (Joe's hood...). Don West has really raised his game - i'd rather they go with a WCW three at commentary than replace him

Cant wait to see what Lashley will do, in the back of my mind though I'm becoming increasingly concerned by the emphasis on the big guys. The X Division is sinking from view - it needs another 2-3 wrestlers and more space on the card. The ratings rise has coincided with this new direction - I dont blame them, but I think you can have the best of both worlds

[slash666]

Erm, no. A heel is meant to be hated, only people like us - smarks are usually in favour of heels.

Nah, your a mark

Ha, oh Jesus thats ironic coming from you.

Wrestling is now split between a promotion for adults and a promotion aimed at younger people - I suppose you go for the one that more closely matches your age

Nope, just the most consistantly entertaining one. And my age? Dude I'm 18 your 25 hardlys a worlds difference, if anything just makes you look the sadder out of us with you going to shows (likely alone since your likely not to have any friends...well that are not virtual) just sitting next to kids trying to get your oh so smart "TNA" chants to catch on while at a WWE show, you rebel!

[D]

I've been watching wrestling for 25 years. I have been watching WWE for about 22 years.

I grew up on NWA and Continental Championship Wrestling.

Continental was ran by Jerry Jarrett and the NWA of course later became WCW.


SO I think I like TNA better because it mirrors a lot of these two companies as Hammy has seen since he has started really checking out WCW that he missed.


I am unbiased but from top to bottom i would much rather watch TNA than WWE.

WWE are great at the top level stuff with HBK,UT, Jericho, Hardys, HHH, Edge etc

but its the bottom stuff where WWE really really suffer. Tag division sucks, they have no small guy division and their jobbers are true to life jobbers who really seem to suck. TNA has jobbers but they even have pretty damn great ability and have some sort of storyline or angle.

WWE use to be awesome because they'd have intriguing storylines on the card from top to bottom. Now they have maybe 2 storylines and then they just throwa bunch of shit together to fill out the card.


TNA have much much much better actual wrestling and with the MEM they are really catching up on the soap opera stuff. the MEM out WWE's WWE. no one is better on the mic than Kurt Angle.

[D]

Shane O Mac turns heel tomorrow and costs HHH the title

U heard it here first


Its WWE though, so he probably just gets pinned by Orton cause they no longer do cool shit like that.

[Izzy]

Shane O Mac turns heel tomorrow and costs HHH the title

U heard it here first

Its WWE though, so he probably just gets pinned by Orton cause they no longer do cool shit like that.

Lol, my thoughts exactly - though I suspect its HHH v Batista next month

Backlash has a good card (save Kane and Punk...) but its the most predictable PPV yet.

'll be intrested to see how a PG 'I Quit' match will work

[Izzy]

Erm, no. A heel is meant to be hated, only people like us - smarks are usually in favour of heels.

Nah, your a mark

Ha, oh Jesus thats ironic coming from you.

Just to humour me - please define ''mark'' in its wrestling connotations?

Ya see, your a bit buggered here - if you respond - you'll look like a idiot, and if you dont respond I'll certainly flag that one up!

[Izzy]

Anyway, new topic time

The great wrestler themes - what's your favourite?

Bret Hart's Hitman theme is just so absurdly 1980's - I love it, the idea someone could walk out to this in the late 1990's is testament to the greatness of WWF

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv0MD5t6O6k&NR=1

The one person that could have turned WWE around over night - Bret Hart - was felled by illness

...just imagine if his health had held out...an honest-to-god champion like that, a feud with Shawn Michaels.....imagine the ratings, just imagine....

[Gnrfan]

WWE are great at the top level stuff with HBK,UT, Jericho, Hardys, HHH, Edge etc

but its the bottom stuff where WWE really really suffer. Tag division sucks, they have no small guy division and their jobbers are true to life jobbers who really seem to suck. TNA has jobbers but they even have pretty damn great ability and have some sort of storyline or angle.

I think i agree with that. The Tag division in WWE needs boosting and doesn't have the presence of TNA's division. I think that WWE have started to do a better job with the IC & US title (Rey & MVP are quality champions for those belts). However TNA X-Division is slipping for me. Its becoming spots too much. Maybe guys like Joe, AJ & Daniels set the bar at such a standard that its hard to beat, but they just don't seem to devote as much time to the X-Division that i remember.

But i think that WWE is better at the top.

I've read all the recent posts and i have to say one thing. I have read interviews with Orton, HHH, Ric Flair & Hogan who have all said that as heels they liked to "bore" fans because they feel it was the best way to be hated. I think i know what Izzy is trying to say but i have to agree with Slash666. In the main heel know they are doing their job if they are getting booed. If they are getting cheered its probally out of respect otherwise they aren't doing their job. But my point is that guys like Orton might bore you but he does that on purpose.

Oh and one other thing. Izzy... to say Austin can't wrestle is simply wrong. He was a fantastic wrestler but his charecter just didn't call for it.

The one person that could have turned WWE around over night - Bret Hart - was felled by illness

...just imagine if his health had held out...an honest-to-god champion like that, a feud with Shawn Michaels.....imagine the ratings, just imagine....

For me Austin, Bret & Hogan are the best of all time. and i agree if Bret returned to WWE when healthy.... The Bret vs HBK feud would have been the biggest of all time. Maybe as big as McMahons vs Austin

[BlowUpYourVideo]

I remember Total Wrestling - a magazine which no longer exists - made a list of the top 100 heels. I won't post the whole thing (unless anyone was really interested....) but their top 30 was:


30: Bret Hart
29: Kevin Nash
28: Sabu
27: Brian Pillman
26: Triple H
25: Harley Race
24: Nick Bockwinkel
23: The Honky Tonk Man
22: Scott Hall
21: Billy Graham
20: Don Muraco
19: Rick Rude
18: Andre The Giant
17: Hulk Hogan
16: Jake Roberts
15: Paul Orndorff
14: Bruiser Brody
13: Randy Savage
12: The Undertaker
11: Abdullah The Butcher
10: Chris Jericho
9: The Sheik (original, not Iron)
8: Kurt Angle
7: Stone Cold Steve Austin
6: Roddy Piper
5: Vince McMahon
4: Freddie Blassie
3: Mick Foley
2: Terry Funk
1: Ric Flair


This list was made in 2003 so I'm not sure how much opinions would have changed since then. Would anyone put someone else at #1??

[sweet616]

izzy shut the fuck up mate.

a true heel is suposed to be hated in anyway possible your supposed to want to pay 15quid to see them get the fuck kicked out of them.

a Rudo on the other hand is loved by his own crowd and is generaly you only see them in mexico because the crowd react much more like a football crowd with people choosing sides.

where as a heel should not be loved. now other then the fact that your an idiotic smark that you believe you know the be all and end all of this heels should not be cheered and next time you think of cheering for a heel think that his job could be on the line because of you.

Thanks babe!

[BlowUpYourVideo]

izzy shut the fuck up mate.

What a great way to begin a counter-argument.

[D]

Come on now sweet, we don't need that kind of insult. Don't get our section locked or heavily moderated.

We know there are all sorts of different heels.

U have your hated heels, u have your coward heels, u have your monster heels, cool heels


Orton is turning into a boring heel. I don't like how they've booked the entire feud. it should be Orton vs HHH

U got 3 guys all trying to feud with Orton and it is too clusterfucked. 

I didn't mind Shane Goldberg facing off against people like Test etc cause they were midcard types and that is fine. Shane Goldberg beating the shit out of the number 1 heel in wrestling is just ridiculous which is why I laugh at people saying mick foley winning the title is somehow uncredible.

U got the bosses son who isn't a "wrestler'  stealing RVD's monster impossible move which  ruins the illusion of RVD and now u got him beating the shit out of your top heel.

K Fed PINNED John Cena, Mickey Rourke a 55 year old ACTOR knocking out your 2008 wrestler of the year with ONE punch


so I don't want to hear any bullshit about TNA.

[Izzy]

where as a heel should not be loved. now other then the fact that your an idiotic smark that you believe you know the be all and end all of this heels should not be cheered and next time you think of cheering for a heel think that his job could be on the line because of you.

Wow - thats some serious grammar there!

No capitals, no punctuation, lack of coherant point

Man, you mustz be well clevez!!1!

I'll respond in a way that you may understand:

i roks! if iz piss you offf then i am happeh, cos i findz ur annoyyance amuzing, andz i mayz be doing somze of thisz just to windz u up!!!1!!!

The all time great heels - Triple H, Rick Flair, Hulk Hogan, The Rock, Stone Cold Steve Austin, Bret Hart etc

What do they all have in common

People love them, they always have, they always will

Heel Hogan was the biggest thing going

I will concede on this one point point that my view is simply the view of an adult. Perhaps a child does ''hate'' the heels and ''love'' the faces - perhaps a healthy degree of maturity has clouded my mind to the reaction of 8 year olds

As you are obvioulsy 10-15 years younger than me - myself being a prime 25 - I'll concede you understand children better than I do with your child like brains, you win - lets discuss this again when your older

Now I'm off to watch RAW to ''hate'' the Big Show - man, he's so mean, i just...grr....hate him so much, I hope he dies!!1!