Wrestling...thats right, Wrestling!

[Hammy]

That must be the best chokeslam i've seen in ages

More of a variation on the Rock Bottom wouldn't you say.....like the Rock Bottom....but better.

lol, that was the point i was making - isnt the rock bottom in turn the 'book end'... which in turn is a chokeslam.....which in turn....

No.

I mean if you want to be really technical essentially they are both just picking up their opponent and slamming their backs into the mat but this is wrestling, you could in theory pick apart everything.  Like all the fancy top rope moves, do they really need the extra twists and turns in mid air?  Don't you get the same desired result either way?  Isn't the Gringo Cutter a Diamond Cutter an RKO a Stone Cold Stunner??

[slash666]

they badly need to turn Joe fully fledged heel now, his character really needs to be freshened up imo

[Izzy]

That must be the best chokeslam i've seen in ages

More of a variation on the Rock Bottom wouldn't you say.....like the Rock Bottom....but better.

lol, that was the point i was making - isnt the rock bottom in turn the 'book end'... which in turn is a chokeslam.....which in turn....

No.

I mean if you want to be really technical essentially they are both just picking up their opponent and slamming their backs into the mat but this is wrestling, you could in theory pick apart everything.  Like all the fancy top rope moves, do they really need the extra twists and turns in mid air?  Don't you get the same desired result either way?  Isn't the Gringo Cutter a Diamond Cutter an RKO a Stone Cold Stunner??

easy there - I wasnt trying to start a fight, just noticing the amusing side of wrestling

The Stunner is the most abused move of all!

[Gnrfan]

Joe is really quite a wrestler - neither face nor heel, he's something unique

Not really! Cena has been doing that for 4 years now. Some like him some hate him. but with Joe he is only getting booed coz he was fighting Sting! as where Cena gets booed by some when fighting fully fledged heels.

However i do agree with the Respect angle being interesting. I thought they were gonna be really silly and let Joe win, but for the first time in a while TNA got an PPV Title match right. Its gonna be interesting to see where they go now.

It looks like Joe vs Nash and Sting vs Styles. Sting vs Styles is gonna be great if they play it well. Styles should eventully win... but while respecting Sting. Thats my opinion.

[Gnrfan]

-- SmackDown wrestler MVP is on a huge losing streak. He hasn't won a match on television in nearly two months -- the SmackDown after SummerSlam in a win via count out over Festus. He's lost nine consecutive matches, including nine clean pinfall losses. He's also lost on eight consecutive editions of Friday Night SmackDown. Here is his loss report:

08-29 SmackDown - Pinfall loss to Jeff Hardy.
09-05 SmackDown - Pinfall loss to Shelton Benjamin.
09-07 Unforgiven - Pinned twice; by Jeff Hardy, and by Triple H at the conclusion of the match.
09-12 SmackDown - Lost Fatal Four Way Match to Jeff Hardy when Kendrick was pinned.
09-19 SmackDown - Pinfall loss to Triple H.
09-26 SmackDown - Pinfall loss to Triple H in tag match vs. Triple H & Jeff Hardy.
10-03 SmackDown - Pinfall loss to Jeff Hardy in All Star Eight-Man Tag Team Match.
10-10 SmackDown - Pinfall loss to Jeff Hardy.
10-17 SmackDown - Pinfall loss to R-Truth.

Poor old MVP.... i had/have great hope for him and i honestly think with a decent finisher he could be a main eventer and a future big time player.

[slash666]

there using his losing streak as a storyline, he says in his promo that one more win will (kayfabe) activate his bonus clause in his contract hence the reason why he's on a losing streak, not that its much of a storyline

[D]

Big difference in Joe and Cena


1. Joe can wrestle his ass off


2. Cena gets what I call X-Pac heat.  Not heat cause its part of a storyline or heel heat. He gets heat cause people genuinely hate him and think he sucks. not the heat u want to have.

[Gnrfan]

Big difference in Joe and Cena


1. Joe can wrestle his ass off


2. Cena gets what I call X-Pac heat.  Not heat cause its part of a storyline or heel heat. He gets heat cause people genuinely hate him and think he sucks. not the heat u want to have.

Just saying that its not unique. And Cena gets the "doesn't deserve his sucsess" chants. not X-Pac chants.

Personally i think Cena has put in as much as anyone to wwe in recent years.

Joe can wrestle.... big woop so can most the ROH guys. I like Joe but to make him out as this guy who is getting a unique reaction from the crowds is just wrong. Its been done before and Cena is still king of that.

[D]

Yeah but Joe wins over casual/non wrestling fans who are just at Universal hanging out whereas Cena is MADE by McMahon and shoved down everyone's throats.

Cena has a great body and marketing machine behind him

Joe looks like an average dude but his intensity and ability and charisma wins everyone over.

[Gnrfan]

Yeah but Joe wins over casual/non wrestling fans who are just at Universal hanging out whereas Cena is MADE by McMahon and shoved down everyone's throats.

Cena has a great body and marketing machine behind him

Joe looks like an average dude but his intensity and ability and charisma wins everyone over.

Maybe but i like Cena. I like his attitude and hard work. And you can't say Joe can draw like Cena. Joe is good but if he was in WWE he wouldn't be world champion i dont think. and you'll say thats why wwe sucks.... but i say despite the talent and the good matches.... i'm not sure he can carry a company like wwe like others can. I think he lacks a bit of charisma persoanlly.

But i agree he has had some awesome matches. It will be interesting to see if he can carry Nash though.... thats like an acid test.

[D]

How does Cena draw? Wrestling is at their shittiest ratings, they don't sell out houseshows and they are in much smaller arenas.

Has the attendance or ratings dropped off since Cena left? NO

[Hammy]

Well.....

It's better than the "Conway Pop".    Where nobody gives a damn anyway which way.

And with Cena it became fashionable to boo him (true his poor punches exact that), but the atmosphere vs Rob Van Dam at One Night Stand was superb!

Also X-Pac got to the point where the only people who'd cheer him would be the one to two IWC people who found X-Factor entertaining.

Cena takes half the crowd on his side, there are a damn lot of women and kids.  Cena is the top merch seller and a big draw.  Have ratings dropped off since Cena left?  What about that RAW rating a few weeks back that prompted you to say TNA are catching?

The problem is the product as a whole.  Look at the mid 90s, ratings there when Bret and HBK were on top would prompt you to say....they can't draw.

No doubt Cena alienates many but he draws in a shitload to.

[D]

Ratings sucked a few weeks ago because the Dallas Cowboys were playing The Philadelphia Eagles on Monday Night Football and having the game of the decade. so everyone watched it and not wrestling.

Nothing to do with Cena as the ratings are back to where they were even with Cena.

[Axl4Life]

there using his losing streak as a storyline, he says in his promo that one more win will (kayfabe) activate his bonus clause in his contract hence the reason why he's on a losing streak, not that its much of a storyline

I think this will result in MVP switching to the Raw brand.

[Izzy]

Lol, compring Joe with Cena

Cena divides people - half hate him, half love him because of the way he's ''produced''

Joe is totally different - true half may love him and half may hate him - but thats because people arent sure how they should react to him

He is so intense and violent people believe he is a heel....and yet, he seems to be fighting on the right side - so maybe he's a face?

I'm not sure myself - he's a nasty peice of work for sure, perhaps an early Stone Cold?

Joe's intensity means he is a very convincing champion - literaly smashing his way to the top

Joe vs Nash will be brutal...if Nash can survive a match at all

[Gnrfan]

How does Cena draw? Wrestling is at their shittiest ratings, they don't sell out houseshows and they are in much smaller arenas.

Has the attendance or ratings dropped off since Cena left? NO

And you thinks thats because of Cena!

I honestly think that is one of the dumbest things i've heard someone who claims to understand wrestling has ever said.

The problem is the product as a whole.  Look at the mid 90s, ratings there when Bret and HBK were on top would prompt you to say....they can't draw.

No doubt Cena alienates many but he draws in a shitload to.

You know what i was just about to say the same thing and then saw you had said it already.

And with Cena it became fashionable to boo him (true his poor punches exact that), but the atmosphere vs Rob Van Dam at One Night Stand was superb!
 

Just like Austin's "What" phase... which started when he was a heel.

Has there ever been a better Atmosphere for a Main event of Mania than HHH vs Cena... when half cheered for everything HHH did and the other half for Cena. and credit Cena he used it brilliantly.

People who slam Cena are just silly IMO. They either don't understand wrestling or are just hating for the sake of hating. He works so hard, puts others over and there is no ego on the guy as opposed to some others.

Sure he doesn't have an impressive moveset.... but whats the difference between "The People's Elbow" and the "5 Knuckle Shuffle"? not much. His Finisher isn't bad and he is a good seller, not to mention comfortable on the mic.

If wrestling was truely about the best wrestlers (and by that i dont mean high flyers) then there would be no big men in wrestling... so goodbye Andre The Giant, Yokozuna, Undertaker & Big Show.

I mean are we saying that HHH, Orton, HBK & Edge are Kurt Angle's League as far as Wrestling goes? Should none of them be Champion? What about Hogan? he was hardly a wrestling machine!

I like Samoa Joe... i really do! i want to make that clear. I'm just saying that Cena is leagues ahead in Drawing power. And personally i'd go to watch Styles , Cage and Angle before Joe even just within TNA... let alone wwe.

I just think people lose sight of what the word "Wrestling" means with wwe/tna world. Its not all holds and reversals there is more... such as image, prestige, popularity, psycolgy, high flying.

Its about more that a average promo and a headbutt. Joe has that mean streak thing going, but this all started coz someone said Joe is Unique.... well aside from his size which isn't a usual world champion build, he is very far from unique. His attitude has been done before, his moves have been doen before, the respect angle has been done loads before (although i don't mind that) and the way fans react to him is IMO a follow on to Cena over the last 3 years.

Persoanally i dont think he has what it takes to bring TNA up to WWE. I'd like to eventully see him in WWE, where he will be the little fish again. But i dont know if he'd do that well in that environment.

[D]

How does Cena draw? Wrestling is at their shittiest ratings, they don't sell out houseshows and they are in much smaller arenas.

Has the attendance or ratings dropped off since Cena left? NO

And you thinks thats because of Cena!

I honestly think that is one of the dumbest things i've heard someone who claims to understand wrestling has ever said.

The problem is the product as a whole.  Look at the mid 90s, ratings there when Bret and HBK were on top would prompt you to say....they can't draw.

No doubt Cena alienates many but he draws in a shitload to.

You know what i was just about to say the same thing and then saw you had said it already.

And with Cena it became fashionable to boo him (true his poor punches exact that), but the atmosphere vs Rob Van Dam at One Night Stand was superb!
 

Just like Austin's "What" phase... which started when he was a heel.

Has there ever been a better Atmosphere for a Main event of Mania than HHH vs Cena... when half cheered for everything HHH did and the other half for Cena. and credit Cena he used it brilliantly.

People who slam Cena are just silly IMO. They either don't understand wrestling or are just hating for the sake of hating. He works so hard, puts others over and there is no ego on the guy as opposed to some others.

Sure he doesn't have an impressive moveset.... but whats the difference between "The People's Elbow" and the "5 Knuckle Shuffle"? not much. His Finisher isn't bad and he is a good seller, not to mention comfortable on the mic.

If wrestling was truely about the best wrestlers (and by that i dont mean high flyers) then there would be no big men in wrestling... so goodbye Andre The Giant, Yokozuna, Undertaker & Big Show.

I mean are we saying that HHH, Orton, HBK & Edge are Kurt Angle's League as far as Wrestling goes? Should none of them be Champion? What about Hogan? he was hardly a wrestling machine!

I like Samoa Joe... i really do! i want to make that clear. I'm just saying that Cena is leagues ahead in Drawing power. And personally i'd go to watch Styles , Cage and Angle before Joe even just within TNA... let alone wwe.

I just think people lose sight of what the word "Wrestling" means with wwe/tna world. Its not all holds and reversals there is more... such as image, prestige, popularity, psycolgy, high flying.

Its about more that a average promo and a headbutt. Joe has that mean streak thing going, but this all started coz someone said Joe is Unique.... well aside from his size which isn't a usual world champion build, he is very far from unique. His attitude has been done before, his moves have been doen before, the respect angle has been done loads before (although i don't mind that) and the way fans react to him is IMO a follow on to Cena over the last 3 years.

Persoanally i dont think he has what it takes to bring TNA up to WWE. I'd like to eventully see him in WWE, where he will be the little fish again. But i dont know if he'd do that well in that environment.

U misunderstood

Cena isn't a draw. Ratings on TV suck, Shows don't sell out, Stone Cold is a draw, The Rock is a draw, HHH is a draw.

The same amount of people are watching Raw without Cena and the same tickets are being sold.

Look what happened when Stone COld and the Rock retired. shit plummetted.

That is my point. Cena isn't a HUGE draw compared to the all time greats.

Hulk Hogan wasn't a bad wrestler at all. Sure he had limited moves but that is cause his intensity,charisma and IT factor, made it so he didn't have to kill himself to get over.

John Cena FUCKING SUCKS and I think anyone who claims to know wrestling and can try to bullshit and act like he doesn't, has no clue.

He sucks

had his push handed to him cause he is good looking and the kids and women love him.
True wrestling fans know that he is a product and SUCKS

he is like a fucking boy band. Product, no substance.

[Gnrfan]

How does Cena draw? Wrestling is at their shittiest ratings, they don't sell out houseshows and they are in much smaller arenas.

Has the attendance or ratings dropped off since Cena left? NO

And you thinks thats because of Cena!

I honestly think that is one of the dumbest things i've heard someone who claims to understand wrestling has ever said.

The problem is the product as a whole.  Look at the mid 90s, ratings there when Bret and HBK were on top would prompt you to say....they can't draw.

No doubt Cena alienates many but he draws in a shitload to.

You know what i was just about to say the same thing and then saw you had said it already.

And with Cena it became fashionable to boo him (true his poor punches exact that), but the atmosphere vs Rob Van Dam at One Night Stand was superb!
 

Just like Austin's "What" phase... which started when he was a heel.

Has there ever been a better Atmosphere for a Main event of Mania than HHH vs Cena... when half cheered for everything HHH did and the other half for Cena. and credit Cena he used it brilliantly.

People who slam Cena are just silly IMO. They either don't understand wrestling or are just hating for the sake of hating. He works so hard, puts others over and there is no ego on the guy as opposed to some others.

Sure he doesn't have an impressive moveset.... but whats the difference between "The People's Elbow" and the "5 Knuckle Shuffle"? not much. His Finisher isn't bad and he is a good seller, not to mention comfortable on the mic.

If wrestling was truely about the best wrestlers (and by that i dont mean high flyers) then there would be no big men in wrestling... so goodbye Andre The Giant, Yokozuna, Undertaker & Big Show.

I mean are we saying that HHH, Orton, HBK & Edge are Kurt Angle's League as far as Wrestling goes? Should none of them be Champion? What about Hogan? he was hardly a wrestling machine!

I like Samoa Joe... i really do! i want to make that clear. I'm just saying that Cena is leagues ahead in Drawing power. And personally i'd go to watch Styles , Cage and Angle before Joe even just within TNA... let alone wwe.

I just think people lose sight of what the word "Wrestling" means with wwe/tna world. Its not all holds and reversals there is more... such as image, prestige, popularity, psycolgy, high flying.

Its about more that a average promo and a headbutt. Joe has that mean streak thing going, but this all started coz someone said Joe is Unique.... well aside from his size which isn't a usual world champion build, he is very far from unique. His attitude has been done before, his moves have been doen before, the respect angle has been done loads before (although i don't mind that) and the way fans react to him is IMO a follow on to Cena over the last 3 years.

Persoanally i dont think he has what it takes to bring TNA up to WWE. I'd like to eventully see him in WWE, where he will be the little fish again. But i dont know if he'd do that well in that environment.

U misunderstood

Cena isn't a draw. Ratings on TV suck, Shows don't sell out, Stone Cold is a draw, The Rock is a draw, HHH is a draw.

The same amount of people are watching Raw without Cena and the same tickets are being sold.

Look what happened when Stone COld and the Rock retired. shit plummetted.

That is my point. Cena isn't a HUGE draw.

Most people probally bought tickets when Cena was still around. I know here in the UK tickets are bought up to 9 weeks before the show.

Cena is a draw dude. Simply as that. He sells more merch than anyone by a mile. And he is the youngsters and females favourite which accounts for a fair proportion of the fans.

I understand what you are saying but like we have already said thats wrestling. People will buy tickets even if their favourite is out. Ratings and attendances were down when Bret & HBK were in their primes....

For example when HHH made his comeback 95% of the people had already bought their tickets and got lucky. Thats why?

Attendances are down in all feds. I listened to Kurt Angle just the other week saying that TNA fans needed to see more top quality action to gets butts in seats and ROH is said to be thinking about cancelling shows.... I think its called a recession!

But seriously if you asked a wrestling journalist who the top draw is in the world.... Who do you think he'd say? Joe?... its Cena!

I have to be honest the last time i watched a live RAW or SD was over a year ago.... results are so availble as well as video clips... people might do something else in good knowledge that they can catch up anytime during the week

[D]

Cena is a bigger draw than Joe because he is the WWE. Ready made big time legendary company

My point which u so rudely insulted me without using your brain and thinking was, Since Cena has been on top, has the company gotten better or worse?

Tickets are down, PPV buyrates are down,

sure he sells merchandise, but he isn't a draw on the scale of Stone Cold, The Rock, Hogan.

Hell look at SD ratings since HHH left Raw. They went up, Raw went down. That is a draw. When HHH reformed on RAW, ratings went way up.

With Cena, ratings are the same with or without him. That isn't a draw.

kids and little girls buying t shirts doesnt make u a draw. just means u have a manufactured gimmick pushed down people's throats.


Imagine what Joe could do in the WWE with its marketing machine if he were pushed right?

[Izzy]

I'd love TNA to get some money from somewhere

The budget constraints really work against the brilliant programe they have - as a person heavily indoctrinated in the WWE way it took me a while to shake off the ''tacky'' feel TNA has in its design/lighting/videos etc

TNA with WWE style presentation would be....well....WWE about 10 years ago actually....

It really needs to go all out on its PPV's...often hard to tell them apart from Impact