Wrestling...thats right, Wrestling!

[Hammy]

'Frak'... The single worst thing about Battlestar Galactica. It undermines the entire smegging show!

Makes Red Dwarf 

[Jim]

And that's the upshot! Fuck yeah!

[pilferk]

oh frak off you nerd

''lack of respect'' - for a 60 year old in a fake fight???

For a 60 year old who has spent 35 years in an industry you happen to suck at the teet of...yes.

Respect NOT for titles won, matches won, etc....that's all fake crap....but respect like you respect Charlton Heston or Judy Dench or Francis Coppola or Elton John or Axl Rose or a million other people who have created legacies in their industry by making good product we like to "consume".

Your inability to understand that, or do it, speaks volumes about your perspective and, quite frankly, means just about anything you say on this subject is irrelevant.

I must respect his incredible uncomplishments? Yeah...because its well hard to win a title decided by a team of writers

How about getting guys over....there've been LOTS of careers made by matches/programs with Flair.  Not because the finish was booked a specific way, but because of Flair's ability to tell a story, cut a promo, and get a guy over.  You failing to understand that piece of the business again speaks VOLUMES about your perspective on this issue....or rather your lack of one.

How about for putting on a great show, and entertaining the fans?  He's done that more times than I could quickly count up.  Some of his matches/programs (Flair vs Sting, Flair vs Steamboat, Flair vs Rhodes, to name just a few) are considered to be among the best EVER.  Not because the finishes are predetermined, but because they are entertaining to watch...even today.

Dude, wrestling isn't real - and aren't you really just a bit too old for wrestling now?

Yes Izzy, I know. Or rather, I know the outcomes are predetermined.

However, you tell the guys it's "not real" and you're likely to get wrapped up like a pretzel and get your arm busted.  But that's neither here nor there.

Wrestling is physically taxing.  It's like violent ballet.  I agree, it's not a sport...hence why I use quotes around the word when I call it one ("sport").  But it does take athletic ability.  It does take physical prowess.  It's not easy....no matter what you might think.

 The blood (even if they're blading) and sweat are VERY real.  So is the pain they go through, just about every night.  Why? To entertain people like you an me.  I, for one, am willing to display some respect and gratitude for someone willing to do that over the past 30-odd years.  I think only an ungrateful tosser wouldn't be willing to do the same.

You are the one who seems to lack perspective and understanding on the industry......which you display in stunning fashion in your preceeding posts. 

As for being "too old"..that's a laughable accusation.  Ever looked at a wrestling crowd?  8 to 80.

However, I think in this conversation maybe you're far too young to get it. 

Wrestling is enjoyable for its utter absurdity, its basically 24 carate rubbish, badly acted, badly staged - and yet there in lies the fun

Enjoy it by all means, hell I do, but don't try and describe Rick Flair like some prodigious footballer

Yes, Wrestling is a testosterone laden morality play.  So what?  So are soap operas (though they're estrogen laden) here in the states. 

As for "badly acted, badly staged rubbish"...you've just described 80 to 90% of prime time programming on TV around the world.  Yet...when the cast of Friends does their final show, or Everybody loves Raymond goes off the air.....pretty much everyone who were fans of the program shows respect to the cast members, and the show, when it's "sent off".

And you're right.  Flair's not like some "prodigiuos footballer".

Because as a single entity he's probably meant more to his industry than any footballer who's name isn't Pele or Beckham (and even then, it's close).  His career has been a lot LONGER than either of those two guys, that's for sure.  He's also probably performed in front of, through out his whole career, something like 5x to 10x as many people as any footballer I can think of.

Yes, the footballer competed, literally.  But now you're debating the plusses and minuses of the two different entities....football and wrestling.  NOT the contributions made by the individuals participating in them.

He is a legend in HIS industry, just like any icon in theirs.  Why do you feel the need to belittle his accomplishments and show the stunning lack of respect?  Because you're naive?  How can you enjoy a product you have no respect for?

I'll sum up my thoughts in one easy to understand point

Wrestling was at its peak when Rick Falir wasn't around (Attitude)

...strangely enough attitude era ended almost at the same time Rick Flair returned

strange?

whats that about a legacy?

Easy to understand...just completely boneheaded.

But thanks.  The above "opinion" displays exactly the perspective we all need to place your opinion in.  The fact you think wrestling enjoyed it's "peak" during Attitude era..while ignoring everything prior... explains exactly your "perspective" on the product and why you shouldn't be taken seriously in this conversation.  That, in and of itself, makes every point I've been aiming for in this conversation....

FYI, The attitude era ended when McMahon ended it.  He ended it because the content was coming under constant pressure from the PTC and other "decency" groups ESPECIALLY after the "Super Bowl" incident.  It was apparent the networks were NOT going to let him continue to air the really controversial subject matter that defined the attitude era.  So McMahon canned it.

Making any correlation to the return of Flair is absurd....and again displays a stunning lack of knowledge and perspective on this subject.


FYI:  At this point, you've pretty much said enough that I just can't take your "opinion" on the matter at all seriously.  In that light, I'm pretty much done with this conversation.....so get the last word in and lets move on.

[BlowUpYourVideo]

Here are Paul Heyman's thoughts on Ric Flair's retirement: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/wrestling/heyman/article1005842.ece

[Mr Cowbell ?]

Here are Paul Heyman's thoughts on Ric Flair's retirement: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/wrestling/heyman/article1005842.ece

I couldnt agree more and I have already stated my opinion on it.  WWE made it a huge deal out of soem of the superstars coming out like Ricky Steamboat, Dean Malenko, They work for WWE and are backstage all the time Im sure flair seen them both in the last week before that night. Chris Jericho, John Cena, What have they ever done with Flair?


Highlight of that Monday NIght besides the original 4 horsemen, was when Baustita came in and gave a Flair a real hug and lifted him up in the air, really showed what a 60 would be like in the ring.

[BlowUpYourVideo]

the "Super Bowl" incident.

What happened there? I think my mind's drawn a blank with that one...




NOOOO, Festus lost to The Undertaker! Oh well, at least it was by TKO, the most hardcore way to lose a match. But what were the Edge-and-Vickie-in-a-beauty-parlour segments all about? Thought there would be more pushing of the Edge/Taker match at Backlash...

Speaking of which, MVP VS. Matt Hardy for the US Title has been added to the card. Looks like Blowup D'z Nuts are gonna get off to a good start.

[G2N2R]

the "Super Bowl" incident.

What happened there? I think my mind's drawn a blank with that one...

Not sure if you were being sarcastic, but in case your not...

Justin Timberlake tearing off Janet Jacksons top and exposing her breast live on air during the halftime show, thats the incident he is referring to.

[BlowUpYourVideo]

the "Super Bowl" incident.

What happened there? I think my mind's drawn a blank with that one...

Not sure if you were being sarcastic, but in case your not...

Justin Timberlake tearing off Janet Jacksons top and exposing her breast live on air during the halftime show, thats the incident he is referring to.

Oh right, that. I was trying to think of some kind of wrestling-related Super Bowl incident hence the confusion. Cool. 

[pilferk]

Not sure if you were being sarcastic, but in case your not...

Justin Timberlake tearing off Janet Jacksons top and exposing her breast live on air during the halftime show, thats the incident he is referring to.

Thanks for the assist in explaining!!

That's exactly what I was talking about.....

[Jim]

Ooh, I tells ye. UK folk, anyhows. Be I in HMV today... Acually. Wait. No it wasn't. And I've been thinking all day that it was. But, nay. 'twas Zavvi. Which was once, up here anyways, Virgin Megastore.

Anyway. The point. Cor blimey!, they had a fair few of the wrestling anthologies dirt cheap. Like... Shawn Michaels, twenty squids, Hulk Hogan, twelve of your English Pounds, Sterling no less!, Undertaker, fifteen pounds... Rey Mysterio, yeah, he was there. And I'm talking about the three disc, four disc jobs that they've been releasing. Err. DX, past and present, I think John Cena reared his ugly head. All that lot.

Anyway, since I had already spent fifty of the pounds that I received just yesterday in my student loan on my god damn PS3 this very same day, I opted for Bret Harts collection an' all that in the end!, for but fifteen of your good pounds, and a mighty fine choice it be too. Well... I'm guessing. I've only watched the Mr. Perfect match from SS 91 so far. But quality be it through and through!

But, so, yeah. If you happen to have actually ever heard of this godforsaken store, and there happens to be one near you, and you don't own pretty much all of 'em already... Check it! Though, I have just realised that rules pretty much everybody out.

... All five of us. Sigh.

PS: I did just check their website. Some of 'em, like dirty ol' Hogan, are listed as being as cheap, but not 'em all. Not sure how long it will last, but I'll probably end up picking up a few of them.

PPS: Hey, Hammy, are all of the Tagged Classics still hovering around the twenty quid mark? Or are the early ones going for substantially less yet? (Not that I be ungrateful!, a tenner for an event aint' no bad bargain and no short change, just wondering is all.)

[Hammy]

PPS: Hey, Hammy, are all of the Tagged Classics still hovering around the twenty quid mark? Or are the early ones going for substantially less yet? (Not that I be ungrateful!, a tenner for an event aint' no bad bargain and no short change, just wondering is all.)

You NEVER want to pay 20 quid for them.  You should be going to www.silvervision.co.uk all are 14.99 and free postage, and preorder ones are 11.99.  They often have sales as well, as you can see it's ECW at the mo' but the other month about half the Tagged Classics were a mere 9.99.

[Jim]

Quality. Just that was the price that I'd seen whenever I was out and about. I was just checking Amazon though, and some are going for under a tenner from independent sellers!

[Hammy]

Quality. Just that was the price that I'd seen whenever I was out and about. I was just checking Amazon though, and some are going for under a tenner from independent sellers!

Strange, I've never bothered with Amazon for anything, don't know much about it to be honest.

[Jim]

Whenever I buy ANYTHING (unless it's an impulse, in person... I end up paying more, but hey... Things that I buy like that need to be on impulse), I check them against Amazon independent sellers. Against the Amazon price, it lists them as ?(blank) used or new. Click on that and, hey, if the new price is lower, then quality. It's all done through Amazon, you pay exactly the same p+p as if you were buying from them and, from my experience, the independent sellers usually post 'em quicker...

I mean, look at the first couple o' Rumbles.

Amazon list 'em at sixteen quid ish. But check in the independent sellers and you can pick it up for ?6.13. The postage and packing is sorted by Amazon (so that you don't get screwed, like on ebay...) so that's only another quid 24. I'd say that ?7.37 ain't no bad bargain.

I definitely recommend it!, especially for CD's. New ones not so much, but you can get a lot of old releases dirt cheap. I picked up most of the Kinks catalogue for on average about a fiver each. I mean... Obviously it ain't all that great, but there are ridiculous savings to be made.

[Hammy]

Nice, what always gets me with these things is those crazy optimists, independent sellers wanting....?24.42

[Hammy]

Mike Adamie rules, he sucks but he rules, you know it!  His attempt to get Deuce over was quite good, I mean he's pretty much a jobber, and with a one word name he's not going anyway, but when Adamie talks about him; "Heres comes The Deuce" the mere mention of him suddenly sends fear down your spine.

What gives with Colin Delaney?  For a guy with no contract he wrestles a lot, hell he's more active than most guys on the roster.

Incidently we do not tolerate cheap WWE rip offs in the "Palace of Wisdom".  Super Eric is a poor combination of Eugene and Mr. America, and if you are unsure, if you don't know, after watching TNA this week you will, or if you go and read the spoilers, now, then, now you'll know.  Or and whereas a certain decent company comes up with MITB the best form of retaliation is Feast of Fired.

It is a damn shame TNA can't get some consistency to be honest.  This past weekend I started watching Lockdown and by the conclusion of BG vs Kip I pretty much gave up and went to sleep.  Tonight though I finally saw the second half of the show, and it was damn superior.  I really liked Lethal Lockdown and the Main Event was superb and the big fight build up combined with Marcus Davis and Frank Trigg was just great.

Speaking of big fight build up, Kudos to WWE for RAW this week.  We had 2 quality Title matches and with the little touches like the pre match introductions they were made to seem more meaningful.  As most will have read, Mickie's match has been given much praise from most on the net, and rightfully so, not only was it a really good match but the celebration afterwards (- Grisham) really do wonders for the belt.  What hasn't got the same amount of recognition though is the IC battle between Umaga and Chris Jericho.  Now since his initial return Jericho just hasn't done it for me.  He was too babyface and stuck with guys he just did not gel with.  The turning point was him defeating Jeff Hardy since then he has been on a role and it only continued on RAW.  His Tweener role is great, his in ring banter with HBK was real entertaining and on top of all that, he and Umaga really worked well together, I would love to see these two have a feud down the line.

Speaking of people gelling well together in the ring, Regal and Orton also had a solid match, which considering Regal's often awkward style was a pleasure to see.  I think what helped is he was playing the babyface and as such got a chance to get better offence in such as his superb suplexes, normally his matches are full of stiff shots and cheap shots with very few power moves.

[Mr Cowbell ?]

I agree on Jericho, seems WWE thought he was going to be huge and brought him back right into the WWE title scene and the newer fans didnt remember him. Not too mention his best days in WWE was as a heal with both titles, and he didnt get over well then. With Triple H, Cena, Orton, and JBL all at the top for being WWE Champion there really is no room for Jericho.

The IC Title. Like I have been saying for months, seems that since they combined all brands onto PPVs we get 3 WORLD TITLE defenses a PPV and the US and Intercontinental Titles just get lost, the whole Time Hardy had the title he defended it what twice? the second time being when he lost to Jericho. THe IC title is one of my favs as I remember going up watching the Texas Tornado, Macho Man, Warrior, and my fav Mr Perfect all rise up to the title and Stars like Macho, Warrior, used that to launch themselfs into being world champion. I hope they continue to use the IC title and have Jericho fued with Umaga, who isnt fueding with anyone now, or have him throw around with HBK who there is no room for a WWE title on raw for him. Besides Having Jericho in the wwe game, I love the IC title and would be happy just seeing it be defended and won and lost, not just bobbing around on the waise of Jeff hardy as he dances to the ring.

Colin Delaney is working for a contract, you see once you get a WWE contract you don't have to work as hard or as much. Its like becoming a union worker.

As far as TNA goes if it wasnt for the Joe Angle match I thought the ppv was going to be another disappointment. Finally Angle can let someone else be champion. I am so tired of the New Age outlaws whether they are a tag team, opponents or doing the DX sign over each others head.

[Hammy]

Yeah it used to be the thing back in the day, despite the major draw being the World Title picture people KNEW that more often that not the IC Title match would steal the show.  Steamboat and Savage did it at Mania III, Piper and Hart did it at Mania VIII, Michaels and Ramon at Mania X and Summerslam 1995.  Triple H and The Rock had numerous classic battles over it on the way up to the top including their great Summerslam 1998 match.

Growing up it was always my favourite belt and from time to time there are glimpses of a decent feud over it.  Umaga and Jeff Hardy the other year had some great battles until Umaga got suspended.  It was always meant to be a tool for seeing if guys were ready for the top spot, a chance to shine and get a good run.  Those who succeeded were taken to the next level.  Looking at RAW you have the guys who are already their (Jericho, Umaga)) who are good for the division because you need established stars, and to go with them you have, potentially, young talent who could really benefit.  It seems Lance Cade has been given a makeover and is being prepared for another solo run, now the guy is a solid worker and a great talker and putting him in this division would be really beneficial.  Same goes for DH Smith, they could wash over the crap run they have given him and give him a decent push, surely his punishment has finished now?  Lastly Paul Burchill another guy who is a good talker and can really go in the ring, with these 3 added and some established guys the division could be something quite special.

[Mr Cowbell ?]

For me when I think of the intercontinental title, I always picture the COCKY Mr Perfect with the big old belt design strutting to the Ring, I thought Perfect and Tornado had a good fued to build it back up after they stripped Ultimate Warrior of it when he won the world title.

Piper Hart was a classic, Two faces battling it out, Hart rising to the top of the wrestling world, Piper getting to be a champion for the first time in wwe (i would like to say his only time but they handed him and flair the titles last year). Classic match with piper wanting to turn heal and you could feel the arena chearing him not to, and then Hart rolls him up. I remember in WWE on demand an interview with Roddy Piper saying he never lost the match because Bret had the hold on and brets shoulders where also pinned they should of made sure bret was aware of the situation or some bs like that. Got to love it.

Or when HBK and Jannety fueded over the summer for it, it made HBK the singles superstar that he is today, and well for Jannetty I heard he got a good interest rate on his car loan so it worked out well for them both.

Hall and HBK at WM X it made the ladder match what it is today. In the middle to end of the attitude era it seemed to loose some guster, as the European Title, Lightweight Title, Hardcore titles where all brought in making the IC seem much less, and then when they combined the Raw world and IC titles that was a disaster. Love to see Jericho turn into a Cocky Heal with it,

[Hammy]

Or when HBK and Jannety fueded over the summer for it, it made HBK the singles superstar that he is today, and well for Jannetty I heard he got a good interest rate on his car loan so it worked out well for them both.

Michaels vs Jannetty = Great matches.  I make a habit out of collecting their matches.  93 Royal Rumble was one of their best matches, great build-up including Jannetty running from the crowd to attack him wearing a GN'R T-Shirt. It was a great back and forth tussle and the added suspense of Sherri Martel on the outside ready to interfer helped it to, especially when she accidently clocked Jannetty.  The time Jannetty won the belt on RAW was so good hell it got voted match of the year, they put that on the RAW DVD I got a few months back, so good, well worth checking out.  They also put another RAW battle on the Best of the Intercontinental Title DVD (Trust me the name IS misleading), which is fair decent but marred by a poor finish.  Lastly, of their battles I have a Steel Cage match encounter on the Steel Cage Matches DVD and that's pretty sweet to, they had definate chemistry in the ring, these matches are a shining example, it's just a shame they never had more than one match on a big PPV.  I think they problem was Jannetty, everytime they built up the feud they had to stop because of personal problems.  But for these I'm sure at Wrestlemania IX they would of had a rematch with Jannetty triumphing, that could of made that show, hell it would easily of been the best match, I mean the match that did happen Tatanka vs HBK despite the Countout finish was still the best match on the worst 'Mania card ever.