Maybe Axl's absence is for the better...

[gilld1]

To say that GNR's glam era ended with AFD is a total short cut to thinking. ?The UYI years and tours, videos, etc. are some of the most glamour filled, self-indulgent, my cock is bigger than yours eras in music history. ?The goal was to out Stones the Stones. ?C'mon, horns, girls, 25 guys playing onstage. ?Pure and simple excess.

So I am a poser because I don't listen to the same music I did when I was 16. ?Gimme a break. ?Excuse me for not being stuck in my adolescence. ?I grew up listening to Poison, the Crue, Ratt, basically all the above mentioned bands. ?Now when I hear this stuff I first laugh or recall a memory and then listen in disbelief that I used to like this garbage. ?Most of the music from the 80s era has no soul, no heart. ?Say what you will about Nirvana but Cobain put his heart and bared his soul in his music, the pain was real. ?Layne Staley gave gut wrenching performances while fighting his addictions. ?Grunge did not kill Hair Metal, time did. ?Reality did too. ?Forgot the last time I was at the Dollhouse in Ft. Lauderdale....I guess I would rather be some Hipster/poser than the retarded kid who still wears his jean jacket with White Lion on the back and hass all the 80s greats on cassette.

Also, Izzy's correct.  Glam is David Bowie, New York Dolls, Lou Reed an earlier scene then the Hair Era.

[POPmetal]

Buddha_Master, I got one word for you: denial. GN'R was a glam band and there's no reason to fight that. It wasn't just during the AFD era. They always had a larger than life glam image. With UIY, they didn't kill glam, they redefined it.

And, once again, you demonstrate that you're not even paying attention to the music, but to insignificant side things like how the band dressed or what they wore. Personally, I think sometimes Poison took the makeup thing too far, but I don't care because it doesn't negate the fact that they recorded some kick ass rock n' roll songs.

[Buddha_Master]

Watch the infamous Ritz show and tell me thats glam. And yea GNR's demise waas the UYI tour when things got over bloated and gay with the horns and shit. Fuck, I totally agree with that. That is what I meant when I said they lost their way. But the GNR that that Ritz show captured, was the GNR that everyone fell in love with. The dirty talented not giving a piss Guns N' Roses, who thrived in controversary. The later GNR definitely was fucked.

Again while they were kicking ass and taking names riding the AFD Lightning, there was nothing Glam about them. The reviews for the Stoned in L.A. show cover that. GNR was a bare boned in your face dirty Rock group who kicked the shit out of the Stones and their million dollar stage show. It pains me that GNR became what they destroyed. But the time when GNR first caused earthquakes...Glam was no longer relevant in the world of Rock.

[POPmetal]

To say that GNR's glam era ended with AFD is a total short cut to thinking. ?The UYI years and tours, videos, etc. are some of the most glamour filled, self-indulgent, my cock is bigger than yours eras in music history. ?The goal was to out Stones the Stones. ?C'mon, horns, girls, 25 guys playing onstage. ?Pure and simple excess.

So I am a poser because I don't listen to the same music I did when I was 16. ?Gimme a break. ?Excuse me for not being stuck in my adolescence. ?I grew up listening to Poison, the Crue, Ratt, basically all the above mentioned bands. ?Now when I hear this stuff I first laugh or recall a memory and then listen in disbelief that I used to like this garbage. ?Most of the music from the 80s era has no soul, no heart. ?Say what you will about Nirvana but Cobain put his heart and bared his soul in his music, the pain was real. ?Layne Staley gave gut wrenching performances while fighting his addictions. ?Grunge did not kill Hair Metal, time did. ?Reality did too. ?Forgot the last time I was at the Dollhouse in Ft. Lauderdale....I guess I would rather be some Hipster/poser than the retarded kid who still wears his jean jacket with White Lion on the back and hass all the 80s greats on cassette.

Also, Izzy's correct.? Glam is David Bowie, New York Dolls, Lou Reed an earlier scene then the Hair Era.

Just for the record, I grew up in the 90s, use an iPod, and own no cassettes. I started listening to metal when I got sick of all the boring post Nirvana crap MTV was ramming down my throat and realized what a fraud they were. There are 90s bands I still really like: AIC, Offspring, Candlebox. I am hardly stuck in my adolescence but I listen to whatever I like. Just because I don't like most of the mainstream stuff, I'm not gonna change my own taste to whatever the media says is now "in" so that others will approve of me and think that I'm not stuck in the past or whatever.

Now, in regards to your post, how do you qualify what having "soul" or "heart" is? And if someone defines them differently, why are you so much better than them?

Also, say someone does not care for "heart and soul" but likes virtuoso instrument playing and singing, what make you so much better that you should sneer at them simply because they have different tastes?

Lastly, I can't help but wonder again, why didn't the millions and millions of people who listened to it back then, like yourself, realize that those 80s bands lack heart and soul and were hence garbage until MTV changed formats and told you they lacked heart and soul and were garbage?

[Rob]

Buddha Master, you sound like every other no-nothing music critic that records sound bytes for VH1.  Do you formulate any opinions on your own.  Saying glam and hair metal are on in the same is idiotic.  Hanoi Rocks was glam but certainly not hair metal.  While many hair metal bands never dressed glam at all.  You judge musicians by their look rather than their music.  That amkes you as ignorant as you can get.  And finally to those who say hair metal bands didn't have any passion for the music is total bullshit.  I've seen bands like Poison, Motley Crue, Warrant, L.A. Guns and more put on amazing live shows titme after time, leaving everything they have on the stage.  That's passion.  Just cause a song is catchy and happy doesn't mean there's no passion and emotion involved.  And then when a "hair metal" band tries to get sentimental and serious its automatically labeled as another cheesy power ballad written to get airplay and chicks.  What makes you think Cobain didn't write shit just to get airplay or money.  What makes  him so fucking different than Nikki Sixx or Bret Michaels.  They wrote about what they loved and were interested in.  If that doesn't interest you then don't listen to it, but then also don't comment on it cause you don't know what you're talking about.  How many of these hair metal rants am I goona have to go on to educate you ignorant people?

[gilld1]

How do you define "heart and soul"?  It's kind of like pornography, you know it when you see it.  Please don't confuse an energetic and choreographed stage show with passion.  Yeah, Warrent oozed soul didn't they?  Trixter sure had alot of passion.  Enuff Znuff sure had heartfelt performances!!  Perhaps an answer to this is the difference in production.  The Hair stuff was so overproduced which may have taken that heart out of it.  The Seattle scene music was raw, flawed, and rough around the edges as far as production goes.

As for MTV deciding my listening habits, I grew up in rural Indiana and did not have cable therefore, no MTV.  I have never been a big watcher of MTV, it's ruined music imo.  I grew out of the cheese metal stage when I went to college and got exposed to different underground groups.  Good marijuana and acid helped discover good tunes.  You don't here a cliche of people tripping to Poison for a reason! 

[Buddha_Master]

Buddha Master, you sound like every other no-nothing music critic that records sound bytes for VH1.? Do you formulate any opinions on your own.? Saying glam and hair metal are on in the same is idiotic.? Hanoi Rocks was glam but certainly not hair metal.? While many hair metal bands never dressed glam at all.? You judge musicians by their look rather than their music.? That amkes you as ignorant as you can get.? And finally to those who say hair metal bands didn't have any passion for the music is total bullshit.? I've seen bands like Poison, Motley Crue, Warrant, L.A. Guns and more put on amazing live shows titme after time, leaving everything they have on the stage.? That's passion.? Just cause a song is catchy and happy doesn't mean there's no passion and emotion involved.? And then when a "hair metal" band tries to get sentimental and serious its automatically labeled as another cheesy power ballad written to get airplay and chicks.? What makes you think Cobain didn't write shit just to get airplay or money.? What makes? him so fucking different than Nikki Sixx or Bret Michaels.? They wrote about what they loved and were interested in.? If that doesn't interest you then don't listen to it, but then also don't comment on it cause you don't know what you're talking about.? How many of these hair metal rants am I goona have to go on to educate you ignorant people?

Dude, you are crazy if you think your opinion is anymore valid then my own. But make no mistake, what I say is my opinion and is just as valid as anyone else's critic or not. That is insulting for you to come at me like that. You want to tell me that Hair metal is different then glam, even though they are all glammed up wearing more makeup then chicks, then cool. I don't see the difference. They are glammed up. You want to seperate the too and convince me that you can be glammed up but you aren't glam, but you are hair metal, even though glam stars used a can of hair spray for every public outing, then cool. Hair metal is cooler, is that what your saying? If that helps you justify liking whatever subpar musicians gave you a boner because there lipstick was prettier then what glam musicians were wearing then good for you. Until GNR, came, you can't tell me that any glam/hair whatever the fuck fruitasses you had taped over your bed, were talented musicianship wise. They were like Kiss who put on big shows, that shrouded the fact that their music was generic and will only serve to define that specific period of time. In other words, there is nothing timeless about the music these cartoon charecters were creating.

Great, Im glad you enjoyed yourself at their shows. The only thing that music serves is to make you laugh when listening to one of the radio stations playing Vice City. The Beatles are arguably the greatest most prolific song writers in history. And they sure as shit aren't like that because of their shows. You want to talk catchy music, look no further. In the end it comes down to the music. And if we can talk about that specifically, it is ignorant to put anything PoisOn has ever done on the level as musicians like Zepplin. Yea great Glam/Hai whatever was only about the fun. I get thats what the 80's was. happy gay whatever.

This is my opinion and you sound like every 35+ year old whose best times were in high school during this time, and is too scared let that go. Like Al Bundy who only wanted to remember himself as the high school football star instead of the woman shoe salesman he became. When you step out of your timewarp bubble, you might find that great music exists outside that which defined you as a teen.

I am a fan of music. I love Classic Rock, Metal, and even Hip Hop. That being said, as a fan, I think saying PoisOn actually made good music, is a serious shortcome to thinking. They were a circus act. And not even the cool ones where there was freaks. They were like Poodles who rode the tricycles. Shit that is funny. But those poodles sure can't play the shit out their guitars. Go tell a Satriani fan how good they are. Better yet film it and send it to me. Would love to see you suddenly feeling like your corky, the class retard.

[POPmetal]

How do you define "heart and soul"?? It's kind of like pornography, you know it when you see it.? Please don't confuse an energetic and choreographed stage show with passion.? Yeah, Warrent oozed soul didn't they?? Trixter sure had alot of passion.? Enuff Znuff sure had heartfelt performances!!? Perhaps an answer to this is the difference in production.? The Hair stuff was so overproduced which may have taken that heart out of it.? The Seattle scene music was raw, flawed, and rough around the edges as far as production goes.

But what about the rest of my question? Why is your definition better than mine? For me, a song like Still Loving YOu, a hair power ballad by the Scorpions, has more passion, heart, and soul than anything Nirvana put out. What about a song like U2's Sometimes You can't Make It On your Own? It's produced to perfection, but are you gonna tell me Bono didn't pour his hart and soul into what's one of the most flawless and beautiful songs ever made?!?!? From my perspective, slandering talented bands as "overproduced" is nothing more than a way for no talent losers to promote their raw, flawed crap. What makes your view better than mine?

And again, since you neglected to answer this the first time around, say someone does not care for "heart and soul" but likes virtuoso instrument playing and singing, what makes you so much better that you should sneer at them simply because they have different tastes?

As for MTV deciding my listening habits, I grew up in rural Indiana and did not have cable therefore, no MTV.? I have never been a big watcher of MTV, it's ruined music imo.? I grew out of the cheese metal stage when I went to college and got exposed to different underground groups.? Good marijuana and acid helped discover good tunes.? You don't here a cliche of people tripping to Poison for a reason!?

Here's another one. I listen to music for the music, not to trip on it, or to be considered hip or whatever. Maybe that's what happened to all the other tens of millions of fans also. They all went to college at the same time, got collectively stoned and were enlightened about what garbage metal was; MTV and the industry had nothing to do with it after all? ?

[POPmetal]

Rob, it's probably best we start ignoring these clowns. Some people are gonna believe whatever they want to believe no matter what, and it's no use arguing with boneheads. Case in point: Buddha_Master still argues that AFD killed glam, ?even though Poison scored their second most successful album 2 years after AFD. He came up with the excuse that it was only because their old fan base stuck around and bought it. OK, then why did Warrant explode when their first album came out in ?1989? I can't wait to hear what tortured logic Buddha_Master will use now to justify why AFD killed glam in spite of that. Too bad he doesn't put as much effort into his logic as into his juvenile name calling.

Look, these people don't merely dislike glam/hair/whatever metal, they hate it! You know Poison have done at least something right if they arouse such an intense reaction from the self proclaimed non posers and "hipsters" ? ?And I love how Poison is now considered bad because, allegedly, they can't play their instruments, but Cobain is lauded as a hero for his imperfect, raw, flawed playing ?

[jarmo]

The Poison that still sold records after AFD, did they have the same image as the Poison that was around before AFD?

GN'R had a phase where they used make up, there's pics of that in the Photographic History book, but in my opinion that doesn't mean the band was a glam band or a hair metal band.




/jarmo

[POPmetal]

They changed their image somewhat for Flesh & Blood, but it was still undeniably blatant, shameless, over the top, glam.

[Neemo]

There is no doubt that poison wasn't as talented as other bands, but they did have a few good tunes, "nothin but a good time", "Every Rose has it's thorn", "Fallen angel", aside from those songs I'm not much of a poison fan, although I do like to laugh at songs like "unskinny Bop" to me that song defines how fucked up music was in the '80's glam scene. and I do agree glam and hair metal are interchangable terms. But in around 88-89, images started to change for those bands, GnR included, they went to a more rugged image, jeans instead of striped spandex, unshaven faces, straight hair instead of teased, now i don't know if GnR brought that change or it just happened. Guns never really changed anything IMO, they were just the best band going.

with grunge, the wild screechy guitar solos became obsolete, don't get me wrong I was as big of a grunge fan as anyone but I do still like to hear the high pitched whiny solos once in a while.

I like gilld1's post "Grunge did not kill Hair Metal, time did." good assesment dude I totally agree, contrary to any prior posts I have made.

I still say you cant compare bands from the 60's and 70's to bands from the 80's & 90's, those guys back then were inventing new shit! but I think that it is undenyable that the majority of the musicians from the Classic, Hair and Grunge eras were just more talented than the shitty musicians we find today. We are in desperate need of a musical revolution, maybe our favorite redhead will rise and help deliver it to us. Maybe it was a good thing he's been absent from the public eye for so long, but I think now he should come out of seclusion and do what he was born to do, kick ass on the stage!!!!  Time to put-up or shut-up. It's time for Chinese Democracy!

[gilld1]

Pop, what the fuck is your problem?  I've simply made the assessment that from my perspective a great deal of the Hair scene was heartless. I grew up during this time period, I was there, Iwent and saw some of the bands live, but even then after hearing Hendrix I knew that there was a key ingredient missing from the Hair scene. I never said that my opinion was better than yours, it is, but I never said it before now.  So flawed production means talentless players?  Say what you will about St. Anger, it's rough, raw, underproduced, so Metallica has no talent?  Then you get absurb and throw U2 into the mix.  So U2 is comparable to Poison, Warrent, etc?  Correct me if I'm wrong but we were talking about Hair Metal not one of the greatest bands ever, U2.  Also, you are a fool to think that a person who plays classical is not into the heart and soul aspect. All GREAT musicians have tremendous heart and soul.  Look at a band like Areosmith, they have heart and soul but their last couple of albums have lacked this and have been bland poppy soppy ballads.  That's why I back tracked and called into question the production of some of these bands. 

It's not my fault that there are so mant people out there that let's MTV and American Idol choose their music for them.  I don't know how Linkin Park sold a billion albums.  I do know that I have gone on to discover many other great bands out there without the help of MTV.  Your mother must be very proud of you that you listen to music not to trip, but to listen to the music!   

[Rob]

First of all Buddha I'm 20, not 35+.  Secondly my opinion on this issue is more valid than yours because I actually know what I'm talking about with these bands...you don't.  I'm not saying hair metal is better than glam.  I'm saying that calling a band glam is classifying them solely on looks, which I think is dumb.  Why should a band be classified on how they look rather than how they sound?  A band like Hanoi Rocks was glam as hell, but they certainly weren't hair metal.  And Popmetal is right on with the whole C.C. vs. Cobain thing.  People say Poison weren't any good because they were sloppy players, well it doesn't get any sloppier than Cobain.  But just because C.C. did it with a smile on his face instead of a gun to his head he gets slaughtered by critics while Cobain is worshiped.  Some of you guys are so hypocritical.  And if you don't think these bands have passion you don't know jack shit.  Passion is why bands like L.A. Guns or Faster Pussycat will still give their all at every performance...even if its in some dingy club where there's only 20 people there to see it.  They do it cause they love music, they love what they're doing.  They have passion.  Just cause they show some fucking life on stage doesn't mean they're not serious about what they do.  Music is supposed to fun right?  At least it used to be.

[Buddha_Master]

Dude, don't put words in my mouth, and watch that condescending tone. I never said a thing about passion. I like photoshop with a passion, but that doesn't mean Im good enough to be working for ILM. Chicks love chocolate with a passion. Maybe we should start strapping guitars on these stay at home oprah loving wives because they have a passion for bon bons.

I never said they were sloppy players. But not being sloppy doesn't mean you are a gifted player. There just isn't any depth to what they were doing musically. I'm saying a stage show doesn't translate to making good music. You seem to think because Bret can twirl while he flips on stage, and then land and click his heals together, means he is a better song writer then Dylan. Siegfried and Roy put on good shows.

But you have to understand the distinction musically. You can't argue about a stage show to someone who is a fan of music. They are not one in the same. Its great when a band can have their cake and eat it too (like with GN'R). To put on a great raw show (and yea, Im talking pre UYI), and have the talent to create great timeless music.

The stage show is bullshit when the music is sucks. Dude, you know who got it right? Pink Floyd. Hair/Glam, I don't give a shit what you want to call them, never got it right. Pink Floyd knew how to put on a show, that completely complemented their music. That was a show...but it was what it was because the music is so good.

So my friend and some others. Are you a fan of music, or are you a fan of the stage show? The stage show...that used as an argument to defend someones music is really lame. Think about it.

[gilld1]

When you watch old videos and listen to some of the albums of the Hair scene often times their passion doesn't show, unless it's a live video.  It was overproduced and pigeonholed to try and fit the image that was popular at the time.  Some of the guys like LA Guns are probably doing it for part love and part what the fuck else are they going to do?

Rob, CC thought he was a great guitarist while Cobain played with in his limits, that's the difference, one of them anyway.

I saw Prodigy at Lollapalooza 97 and wow what a stage show, explosions, crazy lights, chaos.  But the music sure did suck.  I saw BB King once and he never stood from his stool the whole show and it was one of the most amazing shows I've ever witnessed.

[Buddha_Master]

That is a really good fucking point. BBKing fucking rules and is definitely a gift from the music gods. Sometimes when you are just in the presence of a music god, and they are demonstrating their godgiven abilities, that can easily blow you away more then any pyrotechnics could ever do. Shit Hendrix could have seriously just stood their, showed you why he is experienced, and you have walked away knowing you had the shit kicked out of you.

Hate to bring up Buckethead, as I know that is a sore spot, for me too, but I saw him live in Hollywood. Fucking awesome.

From what I saw of GNR 2002 tour, for me, kicked the shit out of the UYI stage show, because it got back to the bare boned dark gritty nature that Rock N' Roll feeds off of best. I think that is a direct reflection of Axl being absent from the bullshit and taking a step back and seeing shit as it was meant to be seen.

[Rob]

I think this debate has run its course.  Sorry if I came off as condescending Buddha.  I dissagree with your opnions on hair metal.  I think Bret Michaels is a good song writer, and I think their music is good.  I'm a Posion fan and nothing someone can say will change that just like nothing I can say will probably change your opinions.  One quick note for gilld, C. C. does not think he's a great guitarist.  He's very humble when it comes to his playing.  He once said, "I had all the influences to become a great guitarist, it just never happened."...or something along those lines.  I don't think Buddha was the one to bring up the passion issue, but someone definitely did.  I am a big fan of the hair metal era...not to say there weren't bad hair metal bands.  There were plenty of them, but I think there were also a lot of good bands to come out of that era that don't get the credit they deserve.  There were also a ton of very talented guitarists to play in hair metal bands.  Guys like Tracii Guns, George Lynch, Frank Hannon, Richie Sambora, Snake Sabo, and many more could all play the hell out of a guitar.  I just don't like bands being judged on their apperance, but if you're not a fan of their songs then that's cool with me.  To each their own.

[disease51883]

I just wanted to say that this has been one of the coolest threads in a long time. I?m quite glad it hasn?t been locked or moved to a section where it would quickly be forgotten. I personally think that glam rock (i.e. T. Rex) is classic and pop metal (i.e. Skid Row) is great, but it?s hard for me to imagine anyone honestly liking the stereotypical hair metal bands (i.e. Poison). With that said, music?s subjective, and it?s not really worth arguing over. Unless you?re trying to keep bored insomniacs like me thoroughly entertained.

As you were?

[MikeB]

I just wanted to say that this has been one of the coolest threads in a long time.

It's funny, I started this thread to help people not to worry about Axl being missing, now its turn into the hair metal/glam rock thread . But thanks though.