Utah gets GAY PRIDE.

[jgfnsr]

In other words, we believe Christ was conceived by God the Father and his mother Mary through the power of the Spirit.? We've never believed they had sex or anything, for as stated below, she was still a virgin afterwards.? ?

I am glad you said this. It gives me the chance to do two things:

1. Show that your religion condradicts itself

and

2. Show that you either a.) Ignored the writing I am about to present you, or b.) Are ignorant of to them.

?Christ was begotten by an immortal father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal father."(Mormon doctrine p.547) "The birth of the savior was as natural as the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood?was begotten of his father, as were of our fathers." (Journal of Discourses vol.8 p.115)

"If none but gods will be permitted to multiply immortal children, it follows that each God must have one or more wives. God, the Father of our spirits, became the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. "(Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, page 158)

"And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the Son of God, and that designation means what it says" (Mormon Doctrine, p. 742).

***********

Yes, this is a fundamental difference between Latter-Day Saints and other Christians.? ?

Yes, and here are some more that are Christians DO NOT believe:

God has goddess wives: "This doctrine that there is a Mother in Heaven was affirmed in all plainness by the First Presidency of the Church" (Bruce R. McConkie, Apostle, Mormon Doctrine, p. 516)

Christians do not believe God to have a wife, or wives.

God is limited by a physical body: "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's" (Doctrine and Covenants, 130:22) "If God possesses a form, that form is of necessity of definite proportions, and therefore of limited extension and space. It is impossible for Him to occupy at one time more than one space of such limits" (James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith, p.43

Christians believe God is infinite.

There are many gods: ""...In all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods" (Joseph Smith, Founder and First Prophet, History of the Church, vol. 6, pp. 308, 474).

Christians believe in only one God.

Jesus and Satan are brothers: "The appointment of Jesus to be the Savior of the world was contested by one of the other sons of God -- Lucifer. This spirit-brother of Jesus desperately tried to become the Svio of mankind" (Milton R. Hunter, First Council of Seventy, The Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15)

Christians believe that Jesus was the only son of God.

"God himself was one as we are now, and is an exalted man...I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form...like yourselves in all person, image, and very form as a man...He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on earth" (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 305)

Christians don't believe God was ever a man.

Man may become god: "Here then is eternal life ... to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you ... To inherit the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of God" (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 306)

Christians do not believe you can become a God.

The black race is a cursed people: "Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness, he became the father of an inferior race. A curse was placed upon him and that curse has been continued through his lineage and must do so while time endures. Millions of souls have come into this world cursed with a blck skin and have been denied the privilege of Priesthood and the fulness of the blessings of the Gospel" (Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, p. 102)

Christians do not think that blacks are a cursed people. LDS will deny this, but it is common knowledge that your religion would exclude blacks from becoming priests until the mid to late 70's.

Joseph Smith , NOT JESUS will be our final judge. "No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are" (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 289)

Christ is the final judge, not Joseph Smith.

And around and around we go.

Much of what you listed above is indeed true.? Some of it is half-truth.? Some of it is completely false.

Yes there are many things that Mormons (who believe they have the fullness of the restored Gospel) have in difference with other Christian churches.

In the end we'll see who was "right" I suppose.

Till than..........I'm done with you.

[SLCPUNK]

You have one here.

I would not consider you anything more than words on a screen.

Can you tell me what you hate about Mormons so much?

I have a strong dislike for hypocrites.

Let me rephrase that. Hypocrites don't bother me too much. But when they spew out self-righteous bullshit, that is enough. Then it's time for me to call them on it.

Perhaps you dont like their lifestyle? ?Perhaps it is their views on homosexuality? ?Of course, their view is no different than any other Christian, Muslic, or Jewish religion. ?What is it, Im curious? ?

My lifestyle is similar to a Mormons, except I am honest about it.

I drink coffee, because I like the caffienne.

While a Mormon won't drink coffee because they believe hot beverages are bad. But they will drink diet coke all day long. So caffienne in soda is ok, caffienne in coffee is bad. Also, coke became ok, once the Mormons obtained a large amount of stock in Cola. Then it got the green light to drink. Amazing! ?

To me, this line of 'thinking' is absurdly stupid.

 However, I find Mormons to be some of the best people I know.

I know great Mormons too. But the difference is, they don't judge, they are great people, because they are great people. They look down on others, such as our friend here, that preaches away.

I never lived in Utah, so I dont know what it is like to live there, however, Southern California has its fair share.

There is a saying in Utah, that a California Mormon is night and day compared to one from Utah.

Of course, the irony comes from the fact that those that claim to be the champions of tolerance, are the most intolerant people when it comes to Mormons. ?

You are trying to say I am bashing him soley because he is Mormon?

Hardly.

As I have stated, and both of you ignored (conveniently), I see a bigot, that judges other people, and uses his religion to back it up. In this case, he happens to be Mormon. If he wants to open a can of worms and claim it to be Christian, I will dispute that.

It is the same argument with you..........

If I don't agree with Bush, it means I blindly hate him/ Love Saddam.

If I don't agree with bigotry and prejudice with religion as mask, then I blindly hate Mormons.

Just because your world is black and white (easy for you to understand) doesn't mean we all think like you.

[SLCPUNK]

Much of what you listed above is indeed true.? Some of it is half-truth.? Some of it is completely false.

If this statement is true, it only proves (that much more) that your religion is full of half-truths, false statements and contradictions. Since they are all direct quotes from Mormon writings.

In the end we'll see who was "right" I suppose.

I'm not worried, the God I believe in isn't a racist, or hypocrite.

Till than..........I'm done with you.

Good, go dry hump your girlfriend and drink a diet coke.

[GnRNightrain]

You have one here.

I would not consider you anything more than words on a screen.

Well, I guess that all you are as well.  Of course, I guess that is all anyone is on this board.  Doesnt surprise me you would quote that, you hate everyone that disagrees with you.  Of course that certainly isnt very tolerant SLC.  I dont hate you.  In fact, I have said it before, Ill bet you are a cool guy in real life.  I just find that you are extremely misguided when it comes to politics.

Perhaps you dont like their lifestyle? ?Perhaps it is their views on homosexuality? ?Of course, their view is no different than any other Christian, Muslic, or Jewish religion. ?What is it, Im curious? ?

My lifestyle is similar to a Mormons, except I am honest about it.

I drink coffee, because I like the caffienne.

While a Mormon won't drink coffee because they believe hot beverages are bad. But they will drink diet coke all day long. So caffienne in soda is ok, caffienne in coffee is bad. Also, coke became ok, once the Mormons obtained a large amount of stock in Cola. Then it got the green light to drink. Amazing! ?

To me, this line of 'thinking' is absurdly stupid.

Certainly Mormons are hypocritical, as is everybody.  However, I dont despise all hypocrites.  I find people with your political views completely off base, but I dont despise them.

I never lived in Utah, so I dont know what it is like to live there, however, Southern California has its fair share.

There is a saying in Utah, that a California Mormon is night and day compared to one from Utah.

That may just be true.  I have no way of knowing.

It is the same argument with you..........

If I don't agree with Bush, it means I blindly hate him/ Love Saddam.

If I don't agree with bigotry and prejudice with religion as mask, then I blindly hate Mormons.

Just because your world is black and white (easy for you to understand) doesn't mean we all think like you.

Actually SLC, my problem with your arguments is not that you think religion is hypocritical or that you bash Bush and the war.  My gosh, there is certianly lots to bash about those things.  My problem arises from the fact that you cant look at things with an open mind.  As I have pointed out you clearly have a different level of scrutiny that you apply to stories that make the Bush administration look good, and those that make them or the US look bad.  Simply look at the Newsweek thread.  I dont care what your beliefs are, I just wish you would look at things with an open mind and be fair.  If we came to the opposite conclusion, fine.  I have yet to see from you any sign that you look at things with an open mind. 

[SLCPUNK]

You haven't studied the LDS Church.  From the list alone below it is obvious you've gotten the vast majority of what you think you know about Mormons from anti-Mormon material.  Probably did a quick search online.  None of it is new.  I've seen and heard it all again and again.   

I sourced your text, used by your religion. I didn't know the Doctrines and Covenants were 'anti-Mormon'. 

You're ignorance is showing itself again.  Blacks were allowed membership in the Church but were not allowed to hold the Priesthood until revelation was received in 1978.  Nobody denies this because we don't need too.  Nor has this fact stopped tens of thousands of blacks in the U.S., Africa, and elsewhere from joining the Church after receiving a testimony for themselves.

By your own Mormon text you refer to the black race as 'cursed'.

Really wiseguy? 

Yea really.

Professors are a dime a dozen.


haha, yea out of Yale!

Find one, that doesn't attend BYU that believes in that book!

There are ones that would agree

From BYU.

Even though we don't need to rely on physical evidence alone, excavations have turned up nearly everything you listed above.

No it has not. Links please.

I would agree with you if by "Christianity," you mean what is considered mainstream Christianity - Catholic, Protestant, and otherwise.

Let the back pedaling begin! (Reminds me of the reincarnation argument...)

However, that has no bearing on whether or not Mormons are Christians.  We believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, know more about Him, and have more ancient scripture and modern revelation testifying of Him than anyone.

You are truly deluded.

We believe the early Christian church fell into apostasy and everything that has stemmed from it - mainstream Christianity - are dead branches from a dead tree.  Thus the need for a direct Restoration of the fullness of the Gospel, along with Priesthood keys and ordinances.

Of course you say that, because Joseph Smith wanted to create his OWN CHURCH WITH HIS OWN RULES to inlcude polygamy!!!!!



Of course, they consider us a cult.  So it's tit for tat.

Uh....ever seen your women out there in Utah?

Can you say stepford wives?

You are a cult.

Don't get me started on: Secret names, hand signals, and the ritual drinking of diet coke.

[Tied-Up]

Just because your world is black and white (easy for you to understand) doesn't mean we all think like you.

Actually SLC, my problem with your arguments is not that you think religion is hypocritical or that you bash Bush and the war.? My gosh, there is certianly lots to bash about those things.? My problem arises from the fact that you cant look at things with an open mind.? As I have pointed out you clearly have a different level of scrutiny that you apply to stories that make the Bush administration look good, and those that make them or the US look bad.? Simply look at the Newsweek thread.? I dont care what your beliefs are, I just wish you would look at things with an open mind and be fair.? If we came to the opposite conclusion, fine.? I have yet to see from you any sign that you look at things with an open mind.?

Not that SLC needs my backup in this, because he's creaming you in this debate, however, in reading the posts, the one who is not viewing things with an open mind is you.? Unfortunately, you can't, because you have been brainwashed to believe what you believe, so my talking here is achieving nothing except providing me with a temporary diversion from the things I need to get done today.?

Getting you to see the fallacies in your thinking is a fruitless endeavor, because the only way to get you to realize the error in your thought process is to deprogram you.? Why I'm telling you this, when you're only going to chew it up and spew it back at me with some dissipated propaganda, I don't know... it's like telling a blind person to open their eyes and see, it's just not going to happen.

Hot beverages are bad?? Even tea?? I didn't realize this conversion from caffeine being bad to hot beverages being bad had taken place.?

The next time the mormons come knocking on my door, maybe instead of bringing them in to show them my baphomet I should show them my cupboard containing well over a thousand dollars worth of tea.? Which one is more evil?

[GnRNightrain]

Tied up, your ego is writing a check that your body cant cash.? You obviously havent read a word that I have written nor read any of the past exchanges between SLC and I.

Not that SLC needs my backup in this, because he's creaming you in this debate,

Of course you think that, you agree with him because you despise religion.

however, in reading the posts, the one who is not viewing things with an open mind is you.

Oh, is that right?? I have bashed Bush tons of times.? I have said he is an idiot, and I have said that in hindsight the war was probably a bad thing.? I have criticized Abu Ghraib and other stupid things that some of our troops have done.? I have said that there is a lot to bash about religion, and I certainly have said that lots of religious people are hypocrites and that the Bible contains many contradictions.? Tell me where I have been so close minded?? Please . . .

SLC, on the other hand refuses to ever acknowledge anything that comes from the other side.? A prime example of this was the Newseek thread, which he continues to say that the Isikoff did nothing wrong and blames the whole thing on Bush.? He claims that everyone is innocent until proven guilty, yet as we have seen he is very selective in where he applies this standard.? So tell me just where am I so close minded, and where am I getting destroyed in this debate?

Unfortunately, you can't, because you have been brainwashed to believe what you believe, so my talking here is achieving nothing except providing me with a temporary diversion from the things I need to get done today.?

Brainwashed by who?? Every school I have ever went to has spewed left-wing propoganda on me from the start.? Its amazing I dont have the same views as you guys.? So tell me what exactly do I believe?? And then tell me why I am wrong?? No offense Tied-up, but what a stupid fucking post.? Of course this achieving nothing for me either, considering I have a few important things to do myself.

Getting you to see the fallacies in your thinking is a fruitless endeavor,

Do you even know what a fallacy is?? You guys throw out that term all the time, yet you fail to ever really point out anything.? If this is the case give some evidence.? What fallacies are there in my arguments?


 

because the only way to get you to realize the error in your thought process is to deprogram you.? Why I'm telling you this, when you're only going to chew it up and spew it back at me with some dissipated propaganda, I don't know... it's like telling a blind person to open their eyes and see, it's just not going to happen.

First of all, Im not that religious.? Second of all, Im glad that you have the true knowledge about religion and faith.? Who would have known that after 2000 years that someone on a GNR board would find the truth to the longlasting dispute over faith.? Of course, you dont know what I stand for, you simply assume that I am extremely religious just because I stuck up in a post for a Mormon.?

Hot beverages are bad?? Even tea?? I didn't realize this conversion from caffeine being bad to hot beverages being bad had taken place.?

Of course, you must assume that I am Mormon.? I clearly see the possible hypocrisy, and fail to see the reasoning, in the whole Caffeine thing with Mormons.? However, that certainly doesnt make me dislike a group of people.? In fact, I dont know too much about the whole caffeine thing, certainly you dont either.? So I will refrain from judging them on beliefs that I dont know much about, even if you choose to.

The next time the mormons come knocking on my door, maybe instead of bringing them in to show them my baphomet I should show them my cupboard containing well over a thousand dollars worth of tea.? Which one is more evil?

You go ahead and do that.? Then you can sit in a circle and laugh with your little friends when they leave.? That would be funny wouldnt it.? Perhaps you could also wear a Yalmulke or a Turban around and mock those of other faiths as well.? That would be funny also.

[SLCPUNK]

That may just be true.  I have no way of knowing.

Well this quote is from a ex-Mormons I knew in Utah. One came from California and despised the judgmental atitude of her own people towards one another in SLC.

Another aspect of the church that I do not like: They judge one another harshly. Often times family members can not attend a wedding at the temple because they are not "temple worthy". Mothers wait outside while their "temple worthy" daughters get married inside. Totally nuts.

? My problem arises from the fact that you cant look at things with an open mind.

Pot .....meet black.

[2NaFish]

So, how about those gays in Utah, huh?

[Tied-Up]

Tied up, your ego is writing a check that your body cant cash.? You obviously havent read a word that I have written nor read any of the past exchanges between SLC and I.

Part of this is correct.? I haven't gone back to check out the past exchanges between you and SLC.? Nor do I intend to.? I HAVE, however, read this thread with a great deal of interest.? I've read what you've written, as well as what SLC has written, and I based my judgements on openmindedness on both sets of exchanges.

Not that SLC needs my backup in this, because he's creaming you in this debate,

Of course you think that, you agree with him because you despise religion.

however, in reading the posts, the one who is not viewing things with an open mind is you.

Oh, is that right?? I have bashed Bush tons of times.? I have said he is an idiot, and I have said that in hindsight the war was probably a bad thing.? I have criticized Abu Ghraib and other stupid things that some of our troops have done.? I have said that there is a lot to bash about religion, and I certainly have said that lots of religious people are hypocrites and that the Bible contains many contradictions.? Tell me where I have been so close minded?? Please . . .

SLC, on the other hand refuses to ever acknowledge anything that comes from the other side.? A prime example of this was the Newseek thread, which he continues to say that the Isikoff did nothing wrong and blames the whole thing on Bush.? He claims that everyone is innocent until proven guilty, yet as we have seen he is very selective in where he applies this standard.? So tell me just where am I so close minded, and where am I getting destroyed in this debate?

Yes... but this thread isn't about bush and how stupid he is. ?It isn't about the war. ?It isn't about Isikoff, and it isn't about our judicial system. ?It was originally about gay pride in Utah, and has naturally evolved into a debate about the Mormon faith. ?So... my opinions are based on your comments regarding the Mormon faith, vs. SLC's comments regarding the Mormon faith. ?

That being said, in viewing the past posts, I have seen an error in my previous post, in that I was lumping you together with jgfnsr, and I realize that it is at jgfnsr that I intended to direct the 'brainwash' comments... for that I apologize. ?Now, you won't hear a woman admit she is wrong very often, nor are you likely to hear her apologize for said error, so enjoy the moment.

Moving on... FALLACY: ?Pronunciation: 'fa-l&-sE: ?Inflected Form(s): plural -cies: ?Etymology: Latin fallacia, from fallac-, fallax deceitful, from fallere to deceive: ?definition: ?(n) a false or mistaken idea; an often plausible argument using false or invalid inference

Of course, my fallacy comment was also intended to be directed toward jgfnsr. ?But... I did want you to know that I know what it means. ?

You go ahead and do that. ?Then you can sit in a circle and laugh with your little friends when they leave. ?That would be funny wouldnt it. ?Perhaps you could also wear a Yalmulke or a Turban around and mock those of other faiths as well. ?That would be funny also.

I think all religions are a joke. ?I generally mock religion, because I do think of them as a joke, and to be an insult on humanity. ?Human beings don't NEED religion, I believe it's a crutch that most people fall onto because they choose not to find their own sense of strength from within. ?

I don't HATE religion, I do, however, find it to be debilitating, and ultimately destructive to a person's sense of being. ?That doesn't mean I've found the ultimate truth, but it does mean that I've found what works for me. ?If religion works for you, or for someone else... hey, that's great too... BUT don't try to shove it down my throat by knocking on my door asking me to join your congregation or for a donation. ?Why shouldn't I mock someone who attempts to beseige me with their religion?

Which leads me to my next question... why does god need all this money anyway?

[SLCPUNK]

Which leads me to my next question... why does god need all this money anyway?

"My God ain't short of cash.....Mr."

-Bono.

 

[SLCPUNK]

So, how about those gays in Utah, huh?

They got all kinds of gays in Utah.

Sinners!!!!!

Utah Gay Rodeo Association:

http://www.ugra.net/

Gay in the Celestial Kingdom

http://www.younggayamerica.com/heartland3.shtml

And of course, just good ole gay in SLC:

http://www.glya.com/

[SLCPUNK]

While Mormons are aware that Salt Lake will become among the most wicked of cities in times to come, I think it's a stretch to say Las Vegas has less crime and pollution.? Besides, there is a huge Mormon presence in Nevada.? And for the record, the fact that Utah is dominated by Mormons hasn't stopped people from moving here.? You should know that.

It is a statistical fact. I know because I was shocked to find out when I was researching moving to Las Vegas.

Las Vegas police force is one of the best in the world for a reason: they want people to come back and spend money. The city (like SLC) is dependent on tourism and keeping LV safe keeps people coming back. And while Las Vegas has essentially the same geography (valley) there is no high pressure in the winter to hold down the pollution like in SLC during the winter.

Hence there is less crime and less pollution in LV then SLC.

Don't make me dig it up and embarass you more.

I didn't say it stopped people from moving to Utah. Rather I said it keeps the RE prices low and undervalued compared to the rest of the country. Many people are not interested in living in a state controlled by a religion, much less a cult-type religion.

That is why Park City is so expensive. It is filled with out of state buyers from NY, California and Florida who ARE NOT Mormon. The lack of Mormon influence in PC allows the prices to go up. They tend to lean more catholic up there.

That is why SLC placed DEAD LAST in home appreciation last year. It is 37th this year, but that is still lousy. PC on the other hand has had much higher appreciation.

Go to PC in the winter or summer, it's like you are in NY...nothing but NE'ers.........

? Last but not least - not to steal your thunder SLCPUNK - but the gay pride parade has been here for a few years now.? It's officially called the "human rights" parade though.? And for a guy who supposedly is married with a kid, you sure seemed to get excited about stuff like gay parades, bars, etc.?

I never said it wasn't, I just thought the article was rather funny/interesting.

If you want to question my sexuality, that is ok, whatever makes you feel better. I know who I am.

[GnRNightrain]

That may just be true.? I have no way of knowing.

Well this quote is from a ex-Mormons I knew in Utah. One came from California and despised the judgmental atitude of her own people towards one another in SLC.

Another aspect of the church that I do not like: They judge one another harshly. Often times family members can not attend a wedding at the temple because they are not "temple worthy". Mothers wait outside while their "temple worthy" daughters get married inside. Totally nuts.

Ill take your word for it. ?One of my buddies that is married got married at the San Diego Temple and his brothers and sisters couldnt go in either. ?I thought it was kind of weird and different, yet I dont know much about it. ?I dont know much about a lot religions that have different rituals than those that I am familiar with. ?I dont know if I would use the term "nuts." ?Especially coming from someone that thinks it is completely normal to have to men or two women get married.

? My problem arises from the fact that you cant look at things with an open mind.

Pot .....meet black.

Ive listed plenty of instances that show that I have an open mind on things. ?Name an instance where you have had an open mind

[SLCPUNK]

  I dont know if I would use the term "nuts."  Especially coming from someone that thinks it is completely normal to have to men or two women get married.


Ive listed plenty of instances that show that I have an open mind on things.  Name an instance where you have had an open mind

"Especially coming from someone that thinks it is completely normal to have to men or two women get married."

[N.I.B]

So, how about those gays in Utah, huh?

I always thought Utah was gay.... 

[SLCPUNK]

So, how about those gays in Utah, huh?

I always thought Utah was gay....?

haha, I love Utah actually.

[Tied-Up]

So, how about those gays in Utah, huh?

I always thought Utah was gay.... 

haha, I love Utah actually.

Now... when you say love... 

never mind... bad joke.  Sorry.   

[SLCPUNK]

So, how about those gays in Utah, huh?

I always thought Utah was gay....?

haha, I love Utah actually.

Now... when you say love...?

never mind... bad joke.? Sorry.? ?

mountains....not the mens......

[Walk]

EDIT: Nevermind, the lack of quotes and the use of black and italic make this argument nearly unreadable to me, since I haven't been following it much.