Utah gets GAY PRIDE.

[SLCPUNK]

I find it quite ironic SLC that you are so quick to jump up and bash the Mormans, yet you start threads and post continuously about the plight of the Islamic fundamentalists.

Interesting. When have I done this?

You think because I ask the USA not to hold themselves to a higher standard (not torture), as we claim to be, that I am protecting Islamic fundamentalists? Is that what you are drawing your conclusion from? Quite a stretch, I'll give to ya, but not suprising. Cheap shots are your specialty.

If you want to start a thread claiming I defending the Islamic nuts, then do so. But please don't hijack this thread....sour grapes you are.

Why dont you start a thread about the intolerance of the Islam religion.  They are far more intolerant than any Christian religion that you find so necessary to endlessly bash on this board.

I am not attacking Christianity. I am attacking those who hide behind relgion to be judgemental, and bigots. If somebody is going to claim to hold the truth, and everybody else is wrong. Then they leave themself open to be criticized and broken down.

[SLCPUNK]

it is such a big issue it's thrown in your face contstantly.. be gay do your thing just don't show off every second...? it's like the fucking parades in nyc, why can't the gays just march as people, I don't go to a parade with the straight section to march as an individual..
Be who you are just don't push it in everyone's face I hate all extremes from gay pride flamboyance to religious cooks

Remember, these people don't represent all gay people. Just like religious nuts don't represent their religion.

You don't march, but you haven't had your ass kicked for liking girls. Haven't been spit on, kicked down, and hated for liking girls (what you would consider natural). Years of being oppressed and told you are less than, can yield a rebel type attitude, would you not agree? People get tired, angry, and fight back.

[mikegiuliana]

Not being gay I would never know.. I just personally hate when we have the St patty's day parade in manhattan and they want special treatment... Nothing wrong with an all gay parade but I am not going to ask to be represented there as a straight guy or italian guy, that's wha tthe columbus day parade is for... I think it's much more accepted now especially in nyc where I live.. Maybe the rude random acts of hate are more away from me because it's not uncommon for me to work in Chelsea manhattan or the village and see guys hugging together...

it's even like I watch tv, I don't mind the gay guy or whatever, I just hate the attention whore super flamboyant look at me everyone gay diva.

it'sa ll about other people's upbringing and intelligence..

[SLCPUNK]

Not being gay I would never know.. I just personally hate when we have the St patty's day parade in manhattan and they want special treatment... Nothing wrong with an all gay parade but I am not going to ask to be represented there as a straight guy or italian guy, that's wha tthe columbus day parade is for... I think it's much more accepted now especially in nyc where I live.. Maybe the rude random acts of hate are more away from me because it's not uncommon for me to work in Chelsea manhattan or the village and see guys hugging together...

it's even like I watch tv, I don't mind the gay guy or whatever, I just hate the attention whore super flamboyant look at me everyone gay diva.

it'sa ll about other people's upbringing and intelligence..

Well bro, I think you missed my point. Oh well.

Those people WANT to irritate you. They feel they have been shit on there entire life, and they act out to piss you off.

And it works.

[mikegiuliana]

Not being gay I would never know.. I just personally hate when we have the St patty's day parade in manhattan and they want special treatment... Nothing wrong with an all gay parade but I am not going to ask to be represented there as a straight guy or italian guy, that's wha tthe columbus day parade is for... I think it's much more accepted now especially in nyc where I live.. Maybe the rude random acts of hate are more away from me because it's not uncommon for me to work in Chelsea manhattan or the village and see guys hugging together...

it's even like I watch tv, I don't mind the gay guy or whatever, I just hate the attention whore super flamboyant look at me everyone gay diva.

it'sa ll about other people's upbringing and intelligence..

Well bro, I think you missed my point. Oh well.

Those people WANT to irritate you. They feel they have been shit on there entire life, and they act out to piss you off.

And it works.

Wel I never did anything to gay people... irritating people doesn't solve anything, a lot of people have been shit on their entire life, doesn't give them the right to drive people nuts.. if them being harrassed was so fucking annoying then they should try to be different.. That's like me getting beaten as a kid so I should beat my kids too..

[Tied-Up]

Something tells me you wouldnt complain if a Bible was flushed down the toilet.

I wouldn't complain if a bible was flushed down the toilet. ?So long as it doesn't clog the toilet. ?Then I would complain. ?Because... then I would have to pay a plumber to fix the toilet... and no bible I've stolen from a motel room is worth paying a plumber for!

But, there really is better uses for a bible. ?You can use the pages for collage. ?And you can use the covers for collage backs. ?

Art is my religion. ?

[SLCPUNK]

Not being gay I would never know.. I just personally hate when we have the St patty's day parade in manhattan and they want special treatment... Nothing wrong with an all gay parade but I am not going to ask to be represented there as a straight guy or italian guy, that's wha tthe columbus day parade is for... I think it's much more accepted now especially in nyc where I live.. Maybe the rude random acts of hate are more away from me because it's not uncommon for me to work in Chelsea manhattan or the village and see guys hugging together...

it's even like I watch tv, I don't mind the gay guy or whatever, I just hate the attention whore super flamboyant look at me everyone gay diva.

it'sa ll about other people's upbringing and intelligence..

Well bro, I think you missed my point. Oh well.

Those people WANT to irritate you. They feel they have been shit on there entire life, and they act out to piss you off.

And it works.

Wel I never did anything to gay people... irritating people doesn't solve anything, a lot of people have been shit on their entire life, doesn't give them the right to drive people nuts.. if them being harrassed was so fucking annoying then they should try to be different.. That's like me getting beaten as a kid so I should beat my kids too..

I'm sure you have not. But that is not the point. They don't care if you have or not. They want to piss off the people who hate them already, you are just a casualty of the "attack".

Different people respond to things differently. Ever seen the anti-abortion people, or PETA, or any other nutty group? It's the same thing really. Not everybody who is against abortion or for animal rights are like these people.

They camp it up, and act more gay then ever, to shock and piss of the people they know hate them.

Many gay people hates gay parades for this reason. They feel it give them a bad name. Most gay men and women are just like us: they want to live life and be happy. They want to ?treat others with respect and in return expect the same.

[SLCPUNK]

Something tells me you wouldnt complain if a Bible was flushed down the toilet.

I wouldn't complain if a bible was flushed down the toilet. ?So long as it doesn't clog the toilet. ?Then I would complain. ?Because... then I would have to pay a plumber to fix the toilet... and no bible I've stolen from a motel room is worth paying a plumber for!

But, there really is better uses for a bible. ?You can use the pages for collage. ?And you can use the covers for collage backs. ?

Art is my religion. ?

Great resonse to an otherwise stupid comment.

Thanks for the laugh.

[mikegiuliana]

yeah that's true man.. Most want to be low key.. Those abortion clinic fucks are nuts.. Against death so they blow up the center and kill some people

[N.I.B]

society is so screwed up right now 

[mikegiuliana]

SLC I just peaked at your sig and saw the number of casualties, damn shame, some coalition nearly 2000 americans almost 100 brits...

[GnRNightrain]

Something tells me you wouldnt complain if a Bible was flushed down the toilet.

I wouldn't complain if a bible was flushed down the toilet. ?So long as it doesn't clog the toilet. ?Then I would complain. ?Because... then I would have to pay a plumber to fix the toilet... and no bible I've stolen from a motel room is worth paying a plumber for!

But, there really is better uses for a bible. ?You can use the pages for collage. ?And you can use the covers for collage backs. ?

Art is my religion. ?

Funny thing thing is, these are comments that are made by the left all of the time.  They constantly mock christianity, but all of the sudden when a Koran is held without gloves they cry torture.  Go figure.

[Tied-Up]

You can flush the Koran down the toilet too.  Although... it would make better collage ephemera than toilet paper, as would the bible. 

I'm against religion of any kind, I don't hold more prejudice against one more than another.  I think they should all be discarded, and humans should free themselves of their dated dogmas and religious ideologies.

[jgfnsr]

Because you are not.

I'll say it one more time.? You've never even had the guts to admit you don't believe in Christ.? You tout the message while dismissing the messenger.? Therefore you, of all people, are in absolutely no postition to determine who is and is not a Christian.

I don't know any Christian group that is not insulted by Mormons calling themselves "Christian".

There are quite a few, no doubt about it.? I served an LDS mission in perhaps the most anti-LDS place on the planet - the southern Bible belt.? Like I said, I'm used to other's objections.? However, that's their beef.? Not yours.? So don't start pretending you're a friend to anyone in Christiandom SLCPUNK, because that's the last thing you are.

You believe that God came down and got the Virgin Mary pregnant.

Remember when I said you only know what you've heard?? Well, thank you for making my point for me.? This is a tired anti-Mormon point of attack that's been done to death and, for the record, simply isn't true.

The LDS faith believes that God was indeed the literal father of Jesus, as Mary was the literal mother.? And Christ inherited both immortal and mortal traits from each respectively.

In other words, we believe Christ was conceived by God the Father and his mother Mary through the power of the Spirit.? We've never believed they had sex or anything, for as stated below, she was still a virgin afterwards.? ?

18 And he said unto me: Behold, the a virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh.

19 And it came to pass that I beheld that she was carried away in the Spirit; and after she had been carried away in the Spirit for the space of a time the angel spake unto me, saying: Look!

20 And I looked and beheld the virgin again, bearing a child in her arms. (1 Nephi 11:18-20)

That Jesus came to America, after he talked to his homeboys the Holy land after the resurrection. I mean...what a load of poo.

Coming from someone who doesn't even believe Jesus left the tomb in the Old World to begin with, it doesn't surprise me that you find this unbelievable.

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. (John 10:16)

It's rather funny, the golden tablets that only Smith and his buddies (mostly family members) witnessed.

Joseph Smith, along with 15 others saw and handled the plates for themselves.? Three of them had them shown to them by an angel.? Even though some eventually left the Church, all held to their testimonies until the end of their lives.

Historians have torn holes in the book of Mormon rather easily. Smith died in jail, as he should have, he was a thief and liar.

Uhh....no.? Actually they haven't.? The Book of Mormon, like the Bible, has never been "disproved" by anyone.? And in the end, one can only know of their truth through the witness of the Spirit - something you wouldn't know anything about.

The only reason Young stopped was because he fell ill with a STD.

LOL!? I'll give you credit for at least coming up with one I haven't heard.? But the fact is, Brigham Young died of a ruptured appendix.? Not that you're concerned with facts or anything.

They also believe that they will become God Like when they die, which by it's very connotatioin implies a polytheistic religion, which by definition is NON-CHRISTIAN.

Ooooohhhh.....so NOW you want to get technical regarding Christian doctrine?

Yes, this is a fundamental difference between Latter-Day Saints and other Christians.?

To begin with, we believe the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three separate personages that make up the Godhood.? Hence, you have three Gods right there.

I could go further but I figure that is more than enough for your pygmie-sized spiritual understanding for now.

[GnRNightrain]

I don't know any Christian group that is not insulted by Mormons calling themselves "Christian".

You have one here.

Can you tell me what you hate about Mormons so much?  Perhaps you dont like their lifestyle?  Perhaps it is their views on homosexuality?  Of course, their view is no different than any other Christian, Muslic, or Jewish religion.  What is it, Im curious? 

I am not a Mormon and I certainly disagree with Mormanism on many levels, as I do most religions.  However, I find Mormons to be some of the best people I know.  I never lived in Utah, so I dont know what it is like to live there, however, Southern California has its fair share.  Ive talked to many mormons, Ive been to mormon churches, one of my best friends was mormon, and I know tons of them.  They are hardly a bad group of people.  I think they are some of the most family-oriented people that I know, and are extremely successful as a whole.  In fact, I find that there are amazing similarities between Jews and Mormons, ie family, success.  Perhaps the most ironic similarity to the Jews, is that in addition to many other similarities, they also are constantly bashed and discriminated against in ways that.  Of course, the irony comes from the fact that those that claim to be the champions of tolerance, are the most intolerant people when it comes to Mormons. 

[Walk]

I find it interesting that people mock Mormons, but Catholics throw around absolutely un-biblical heresy like "purgatory", and few people mock them for it! Mormons do tend to get a lot of flak for being wrong in many places, but being small and isolated hurts, too.

Hell, even some Protestant denominations are having "civil ceremonies" for gays and women serve as pastors. Very few people who criticize Mormonism are innocent, because most are hypocritical. I think only a few very small Presbyterian churches have completely held onto fundamentalist doctrine.

70% of Evangelicals are poseurs anyway, at least. Most people who claim to be Christian aren't.

[Prometheus]

if you use teh apostiles creed in a mass your are considered catholic... so most christian relgions fall into that state.. so you must be meaning RC

[SLCPUNK]

I'll say it one more time. ?You've never even had the guts to admit you don't believe in Christ. ?You tout the message while dismissing the messenger. ?Therefore you, of all people, are in absolutely no postition to determine who is and is not a Christian.

Just because I am not a Christian does not mean I do not understand that Mormons are NOT CHRISTIANS.

There are quite a few, no doubt about it. ?I served an LDS mission in perhaps the most anti-LDS place on the planet - the southern Bible belt. ?Like I said, I'm used to other's objections. ?However, that's their beef. ?Not yours. ?So don't start pretending you're a friend to anyone in Christiandom SLCPUNK, because that's the last thing you are.

Actually I am a friend to quite a few Christians. They aren't assholes though.


Remember when I said you only know what you've heard? ?Well, thank you for making my point for me. ?This is a tired anti-Mormon point of attack that's been done to death and, for the record, simply isn't true.

This is the part of Mormonism that cracks me up. You don't know your own history. I have studied many different religions extensively. LDS I studied, once I had been in Utah for a while. Your group seems to have changed their story over time. To become more acceptable to mainstream America. Not allowing blacks in the church was another. But the LDS culture would cry foul if that was pointed out. No matter how much truth was in it.

The same for your history and early beliefs. They all get muddied up as time marches on, ESPECIALLY when somebody calls you out on them. Everything is subject to change:

Church changed all the quotes in the Brigham Young lesson manual from "wives" to "wife"

Church-wide Joseph F. Smith lesson manual removes all mention of this prophet's many plural wives and divorces

Church changing some (but not all yet) references to the "Cumorah Pageant" to "Palmyra Pageant"

Church quietly removed term "White and Delightsome" from Book of Mormon

Church removed strange words from temple endowment like "Barak Ale," "Pay Lay Ale," "Beelzebub," etc..

Church's other extensive April 1990 changes to the temple endowment ceremony to make it more politically correct by removing the blood death oaths, five points of fellowship, and the Protestant preacher in the pay of "Beelzebub" (Satan).

Church dropped the "Lamanite Generation" name at BYU and renamed it "Living Legends"

Church changed the name of the "Mormonads" in the New Era to "New Era Posters." These are those photos with "inspirational" sayings appropriate for cutting out and using for a constant reminder of someone else's ideas of appropriate behavior.

Church's recent world-wide announcement that insists the media never refer to the church as the "Mormon Church."

I can go on and on...but I won't.


Uhh....no. ?Actually they haven't. ?The Book of Mormon, like the Bible, has never been "disproved" by anyone. ?And in the end, one can only know of their truth through the witness of the Spirit - something you wouldn't know anything about.

The book has been shredded by Yale Archaeology Proffesors.

What they pointed out was that the book describes dozens of other species of animals and domesticated plants that have yet to turn up excavations from where the 'story' took place. Horses, bulls, goats, donkeys, sheep,......... grapes, olives, figs etc etc. Not to mention other objects: coins, functional wheeels, chariots, metal swords etc etc....

The history alone is false based on Archaeology.

They also believe that they will become God Like when they die, which by it's very connotatioin implies a polytheistic religion, which by definition is NON-CHRISTIAN.

Ooooohhhh.....so NOW you want to get technical regarding Christian doctrine?

I have, and I am correct.

Yes, this is a fundamental difference between Latter-Day Saints and other Christians. ?

So......then Mormonism IS NOT CHRISTIANITY.

I could go further but I figure that is more than enough for your pygmie-sized spiritual understanding for now.

Shallow insults from the hypocrite.

Always the sign of an argument lost.

[SLCPUNK]

In other words, we believe Christ was conceived by God the Father and his mother Mary through the power of the Spirit.  We've never believed they had sex or anything, for as stated below, she was still a virgin afterwards.   

I am glad you said this. It gives me the chance to do two things:

1. Show that your religion condradicts itself

and

2. Show that you either a.) Ignored the writing I am about to present you, or b.) Are ignorant of to them.

?Christ was begotten by an immortal father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal father."(Mormon doctrine p.547) "The birth of the savior was as natural as the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood?was begotten of his father, as were of our fathers." (Journal of Discourses vol.8 p.115)

"If none but gods will be permitted to multiply immortal children, it follows that each God must have one or more wives. God, the Father of our spirits, became the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. "(Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, page 158)

"And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the Son of God, and that designation means what it says" (Mormon Doctrine, p. 742).

***********

Yes, this is a fundamental difference between Latter-Day Saints and other Christians.   

Yes, and here are some more that are Christians DO NOT believe:

God has goddess wives: "This doctrine that there is a Mother in Heaven was affirmed in all plainness by the First Presidency of the Church" (Bruce R. McConkie, Apostle, Mormon Doctrine, p. 516)

Christians do not believe God to have a wife, or wives.

God is limited by a physical body: "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's" (Doctrine and Covenants, 130:22) "If God possesses a form, that form is of necessity of definite proportions, and therefore of limited extension and space. It is impossible for Him to occupy at one time more than one space of such limits" (James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith, p.43

Christians believe God is infinite.

There are many gods: ""...In all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods" (Joseph Smith, Founder and First Prophet, History of the Church, vol. 6, pp. 308, 474).

Christians believe in only one God.

Jesus and Satan are brothers: "The appointment of Jesus to be the Savior of the world was contested by one of the other sons of God -- Lucifer. This spirit-brother of Jesus desperately tried to become the Svio of mankind" (Milton R. Hunter, First Council of Seventy, The Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15)

Christians believe that Jesus was the only son of God.

"God himself was one as we are now, and is an exalted man...I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form...like yourselves in all person, image, and very form as a man...He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on earth" (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 305)

Christians don't believe God was ever a man.

Man may become god: "Here then is eternal life ... to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you ... To inherit the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of God" (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 306)

Christians do not believe you can become a God.

The black race is a cursed people: "Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness, he became the father of an inferior race. A curse was placed upon him and that curse has been continued through his lineage and must do so while time endures. Millions of souls have come into this world cursed with a blck skin and have been denied the privilege of Priesthood and the fulness of the blessings of the Gospel" (Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, p. 102)

Christians do not think that blacks are a cursed people. LDS will deny this, but it is common knowledge that your religion would exclude blacks from becoming priests until the mid to late 70's.

Joseph Smith , NOT JESUS will be our final judge. "No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are" (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 289)

Christ is the final judge, not Joseph Smith.

[jgfnsr]

This is the part of Mormonism that cracks me up. You don't know your own history. I have studied many different religions extensively. LDS I studied, once I had been in Utah for a while.

You haven't studied the LDS Church.? From the list alone below it is obvious you've gotten the vast majority of what you think you know about Mormons from anti-Mormon material.? Probably did a quick search online.? None of it is new.? I've seen and heard it all again and again.? ?

Your group seems to have changed their story over time. To become more acceptable to mainstream America. Not allowing blacks in the church was another. But the LDS culture would cry foul if that was pointed out. No matter how much truth was in it.

You're ignorance is showing itself again.? Blacks were allowed membership in the Church but were not allowed to hold the Priesthood until revelation was received in 1978.? Nobody denies this because we don't need too.? Nor has this fact stopped tens of thousands of blacks in the U.S., Africa, and elsewhere from joining the Church after receiving a testimony for themselves.

The same for your history and early beliefs. They all get muddied up as time marches on, ESPECIALLY when somebody calls you out on them. Everything is subject to change:

Church quietly removed term "White and Delightsome" from Book of Mormon

Really wiseguy??

And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity.? For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.? (2 Nephi 5:21)

Church changed all the quotes in the Brigham Young lesson manual from "wives" to "wife"

Church-wide Joseph F. Smith lesson manual removes all mention of this prophet's many plural wives and divorces

I actually have both manuals for my Priesthood quorum.?

The Brigham Young manual contains both "wives" and "wife" depending on what is being discussed.

The Joseph F. Smith manual mentions the fact he had plural wives.

Church removed strange words from temple endowment like "Barak Ale," "Pay Lay Ale," "Beelzebub," etc..

Church's other extensive April 1990 changes to the temple endowment ceremony to make it more politically correct by removing the blood death oaths, five points of fellowship, and the Protestant preacher in the pay of "Beelzebub" (Satan).

I've been in the LDS temples.? You haven't.? I know what it all entails.? You don't.? Enough said.

Church changing some (but not all yet) references to the "Cumorah Pageant" to "Palmyra Pageant"

Church dropped the "Lamanite Generation" name at BYU and renamed it "Living Legends"

Church changed the name of the "Mormonads" in the New Era to "New Era Posters." These are those photos with "inspirational" sayings appropriate for cutting out and using for a constant reminder of someone else's ideas of appropriate behavior.

Are these supposed to be indictments?

Church's recent world-wide announcement that insists the media never refer to the church as the "Mormon Church."

Since revelation given in 1838, the official name has always been the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.? Before than, it was simply called the Church of Christ or the Church of Latter-Day Saints.

While the title is by no means offensive, "Mormon" was a nickname used by non-members for those in the Church.? Obviously they got it from the Book of Mormon; Mormon being the ancient prophet/historian who compiled the records that Joseph Smith translated.

But this isn't Mormon's Church.? It's Jesus Christ's.? Hence, it bears the name of He whose it is.? That others respect that isn't too much to ask.

The book has been shredded by Yale Archaeology Proffesors.

What they pointed out was that the book describes dozens of other species of animals and domesticated plants that have yet to turn up excavations from where the 'story' took place. Horses, bulls, goats, donkeys, sheep,......... grapes, olives, figs etc etc. Not to mention other objects: coins, functional wheeels, chariots, metal swords etc etc....

The history alone is false based on Archaeology.

Professors are a dime a dozen.? There are ones that would agree with you and there are ones that would not.

From "where the story took place?"? It took place in entire regions of southern, central, and north America.?

Even though we don't need to rely on physical evidence alone, excavations have turned up nearly everything you listed above.

Where do you think the ancient civilizations of the Mayans, Aztecs, Incas, etc. sprang from?? The American Indians that somehow were already here when Columbus and others arrived?? You think they just popped up out of the ground?

So......then Mormonism IS NOT CHRISTIANITY.

I would agree with you if by "Christianity," you mean what is considered mainstream Christianity - Catholic, Protestant, and otherwise.

However, that has no bearing on whether or not Mormons are Christians.? We believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, know more about Him, and have more ancient scripture and modern revelation testifying of Him than anyone.?

We believe the early Christian church fell into apostasy and everything that has stemmed from it - mainstream Christianity - are dead branches from a dead tree.? Thus the need for a direct Restoration of the fullness of the Gospel, along with Priesthood keys and ordinances.

Of course, they consider us a cult.? So it's tit for tat.