matt-we need a break

[jarmo]

Similar doesn't equal the same.


I'm just pointing out the similarities, not saying it's the exact same thing. I even mentioned the fact that VR's tour had started and they only cancelled the last shows in Switzerland, Iceland, Norway, and Finland.

The fact still remains, Axl was laughed at because he said he didn't know about it, while it's "poor VR, they need a break" and nobody questions what Matt said.

Everybody cancels shows, that's common knowledge. That's not the issue, just the difference in attitudes. Personally I don't care, they cancelled and that's that. It happens.



/jarmo

[AxlGunner]

The fact still remains, Axl was laughed at because he said he didn't know about it, while it's "poor VR, they need a break" and nobody questions what Matt said.

Everybody cancels shows, that's common knowledge. That's not the issue, just the difference in attitudes.

/jarmo

Alright... now we're getting somewhere. This is the point you seemed to allude to in your first post that you didn't seem like you really wanted to elaborate on until now (which i'm glad you finally did, because it's the main reason i took issue with what you wrote).

Here is what it seems the point of your little 'comparison' was (based on what you wrote): Axl gets treated much differently than VR does, especially by people on this board. You seem to think it's unfair that people will quickly laugh at axl, question what he says, and generally try to criticize everything he seems to do. This is unfair to axl, because they are only looking at it from a negative point of view. Meanwhile, people don't look at VR this way, and for the most part tend to accept everything they say at face value. hence why you wrote "nobody questions what Matt said" and about "the difference in attitudes" versus when they laughed at axl. you are trying to point out the similarities in the 2 situations to show how people are being hypocrites.

WELL... that is precisely why I wrote that the 2 situations are not the same- in fact, you agreed that similar doesn't equal same. While there is a similarity, your comparison is ultimately COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS precisely BECAUSE the two examples are not the same. People had different reactions to the two events because of the many differences that you fail to mention. For one, Axl was laughed at because what happened (which was that his first tour in years was booked in europe, only to be cancelled because he claimed he didnt know about it) was (sadly)very typical of the state of this new-gnr, which has repeatedly dissappointed its fan base and left them hungry for anything.

What happened to VR was not the same by any stretch of the imagination. They have been touring for a year now, and would have performed the remaining dates- even though they hadn't intended for them to be made- but for the fact that they miss their families and need a break after so long. Velvet Revolver has EARNED THE TRUST OF THE FANS. Axl, clearly, has not done this.

Also, think about it- clearly the band's management was booking all of the dates, which means that VR wasn't "aware" of most of them until after they were booked- yet VR still played them because they had an understanding that their managers were planning tour dates. Axl did not even have this understanding with his booking people, which is testament to the sorry state of affairs in the gnr camp in recent years (aside from a brief tour that was awesome but ultimately disheartening).
 

[mikegiuliana]

Similar doesn't equal the same.


I'm just pointing out the similarities, not saying it's the exact same thing. I even mentioned the fact that VR's tour had started and they only cancelled the last shows in Switzerland, Iceland, Norway, and Finland.

The fact still remains, Axl was laughed at because he said he didn't know about it, while it's "poor VR, they need a break" and nobody questions what Matt said.

Everybody cancels shows, that's common knowledge. That's not the issue, just the difference in attitudes. Personally I don't care, they cancelled and that's that. It happens.



/jarmo

I was only trying to point out the idea we have to wait forever to see new gnr so any type of cancelation is very annoying, iwht vr you know they will be back and they actually have a reason you can belive why they are not going to play.. Three week tour, one shot at rio missed, no album.. With new gnr you know you might get nothing, but with vr you know you will probably get something later and be kept very informed on the situations.

A cancelation is a cancelation and as you said it happens, but when you have new gnr that never performs it sucks worse..

[jarmo]

Do you honestly buy the "we didn't know about the dates" excuse? You trust everything VR tells you?

It's amusing that Matt says something like this considering Axl used a similar excuse years ago.

People were saying things like "oh how can Axl not know about it?", well how can VR not have known about it until last week?

I guess it's possible? If it can happen to VR, it can happen to all bands. I mean, VR can be trusted....


I see these things my way, you might not agree but that doesn't mean you're right and I'm wrong.

I was only trying to point out the idea we have to wait forever to see new gnr so any type of cancelation is very annoying, iwht vr you know they will be back and they actually have a reason you can belive why they are not going to play..

Sure they have a reason, that wasn't the point. I was talking about the "we didn't know these shows were booked" part.


Don't forget, they added the Live 8 date after the cancelled dates. So they're not tired enough to miss the biggest show they might ever be part of.




/jarmo

[Mikkamakka]

Maybe I am the only one who gets the difference between vr pulling out after a 13 month tour in europe..

Maybe you are because you want to.


Both bands cancelled shows because, as certain band members said, the shows were booked and they didn't know about them.


The number of shows they have played in Europe has no significance. What I'm talking about is the fact that the shows were booked and the band wasn't asked about it in advance. At least that's how Matt's comment makes it seem.



/jarmo

Didn't Axl Rose cancel the rescheduled shows, too? Jarmo, I know you are having joy when 'try' to convince us that VR and Nu-GN'R work on the same way and make some people angry or make them type long posts, but these paralels are not true. Nu-GN'R's history is a total failure, but VR's story is a solid success.

[AxlGunner]

oh ok... well i didnt know the whole point of that was to prove that VR may have lied when they said they didnt know about the dates. To be fair, they never said they didn't know about them, just that management went out of control and booked too many. It's not as if management booked A WHOLE TOUR that they didn't approve of (just think of how ridiculous that sounds). I think it's a somewhat likely scenario that they didn't approve management adding those dates, seeing as how on the whole they seem to get tooled into doing things they don't want to do (such as release dirty little thing as a single instead of suckertrain blues, record a censored version of CB, and release 1,000 versions of CB.)

However, even if you're right, and they knew about the dates when they were booked but still cancelled, well, i think people are willing to cut them more slack because a) they have a valid excuse (we miss our families) and b) they have already been touring for a whole year!! those are 2 trump cards that axl did not have.

[mikegiuliana]

jarmo ,

man I am telling you even if mat is lying it still doesn't bother me because of the reasons I mentioned above.. They toured for 13 months went back n forth to europe several times did the states several times.. If new gnr toured for a really long time and cancelled a few dates in europe but had motre ahead I wouldn't say "another excuse or BS".. It's like axl's a drunk and ?he misses work the day after payday he might be sick, but most would say oh he's hungover from payday.. When someone else is sick you just believe they were sick .. Axl reputation has made him seem like a douche bag at times and fans tend to lose respect for his word when he isn't able to make it..

[jarmo]

Didn't Axl Rose cancel the rescheduled shows, too? Jarmo, I know you are having joy when 'try' to convince us that VR and Nu-GN'R work on the same way and make some people angry or make them type long posts, but these paralels are not true. Nu-GN'R's history is a total failure, but VR's story is a solid success.

Yes GN'R cancelled the tour twice.

Parallels are not true?

Axl: I read I had a tour on the Internet.
Matt: We didn't know those shows were booked.

Looks kinda similar to me. You can argue all you want that GN'R never plays shows etc, that was never the issue.




I'm saying all bands cancel shows, but the reaction is different when GN'R does it. I don't buy the "but it's because they never play shows" excuse. GN'R could cancel one show on a two-year tour and we'd still see people going on about how Axl's an asshole for cancelling without a good reason. ?

 


/jarmo

[jarmo]

However, even if you're right, and they knew about the dates when they were booked but still cancelled, well, i think people are willing to cut them more slack because a) they have a valid excuse (we miss our families) and b) they have already been touring for a whole year!! those are 2 trump cards that axl did not have.

If I had bought a festival ticket and the show was cancelled but the band was still playing a show they added after the festival date, I'd be more disappointed.

Axl wanted to go home to work on the album. He missed his studio.



/jarmo

[mikegiuliana]

I'm saying all bands cancel shows, but the reaction is different when GN'R does it. I don't buy the "but it's because they never play shows" excuse. GN'R could cancel one show on a two-year tour and we'd still see people going on about how Axl's an asshole for cancelling without a good reason.

gnr do a 2 year tour... My heart, elizabeth this is the big one I'm coming to join you.. Little fred saford refrence.. The only people that should bitch is the people who expected to see them.. As long as there is notice and not philly 2 then it's all good by me..

Jarmo I had read axl saying they were going to do a spring tour after the fall/winter NA tour in 2002, was that fucked because of the philly gig? He said tour on adn off for the next 2-3 years, what happened with that?

[AxlGunner]

Didn't Axl Rose cancel the rescheduled shows, too? Jarmo, I know you are having joy when 'try' to convince us that VR and Nu-GN'R work on the same way and make some people angry or make them type long posts, but these paralels are not true. Nu-GN'R's history is a total failure, but VR's story is a solid success.

Axl: I read I had a tour on the Internet.
Matt: We didn't know those shows were booked.

Axl: I never intended to book a tour.
Matt: We didn't intend for our tour to be so long.

How similar are those?

I'm saying all bands cancel shows, but the reaction is different when GN'R does it.

Are you saying fans should have reacted to gnr cancelling all their shit the same way they reacted to vr? well they didn't. nor did the media. oops- maybe instead of trying to desperately look for ways in which everyone is wrong, you should try to figure out exactly why they reacted differently- maybe there's some insight to be learned?

I don't buy the "but it's because they never play shows" excuse.

Are you saying that people's opinions and reactions are wrong? I'm sorry, please explain to me how someone's feelings can be wrong?

Do you really think there's no difference between? a band that ends up cancelling 90% of their shows over a 8 year period, versus a band that cancels only 5%?? (ok maybe 90% is too high... how about 70%? does someone want to do the actual math as to the total dates planned vs. actually played?)

Axl wanted to go home to work on the album. He missed his studio.?

Please man, at this point you're just trying to be a complete douche about it (you know the wink is just patronizing), obviously to get people annoyed/riled up. way to be a respectable admin who sets examples for other users to follow. let me follow your lead and go around the gnr section drawing comparisons to how VR does everything better than GNR and start pissing axl-diehards, i'm sure you'll find that as amusing. regardless, the point is, maybe if a) axl actually said that, or b) axl released the fucking album within a decade of ending the tour, then i'd cut him some slack. Until that happens, i'm the man in black.

(uh sorry, that song popped into my head? )

[jarmo]

Axl wanted to go home to work on the album. He missed his studio.?

Please man, at this point you're just trying to be a complete douche about it (you know the wink is just patronizing), obviously to get people annoyed/riled up. way to be a respectable admin who sets examples for other users to follow.

It was a fucking joke. Maybe one day you can understand that even "a respectable admin" can joke now and then?


You still argue about something I never even said was the "amusing" part. Yes, there's a difference between cancelling a few shows at the end and cancelling a whole tour.

Let me say it again: I find the excuses of them not knowing about the shows similar. Not the length of the tour, not the amount of shows played, not the countries played, not the color of the vocalists' hair. Only the fact that both bands claimed thay had no idea there were shows booked are similar. How many times do I have to point it out?


Both bands decided they didn't want to play the shows they hadn't agreed on playing. Again, yes one band cancelled the whole tour while the other band had actually agreed to do a bunch of shows and only ended up cancelling a few at the end. You twist the words, but the meaning is still the same. They both cancelled shows they claim they had no idea were booked.

That's the only similarity I see. You don't see it, fine.





/jarmo

[AxlGunner]

Axl wanted to go home to work on the album. He missed his studio.?

Please man, at this point you're just trying to be a complete douche about it (you know the wink is just patronizing), obviously to get people annoyed/riled up. way to be a respectable admin who sets examples for other users to follow.

It was a fucking joke. Maybe one day you can understand that even "a respectable admin" can joke now and then?


You still argue about something I never even said was the "amusing" part. Yes, there's a difference between cancelling a few shows at the end and cancelling a whole tour.

Let me say it again: I find the excuses of them not knowing about the shows similar. Not the length of the tour, not the amount of shows played, not the countries played, not the color of the vocalists' hair. Only the fact that both bands claimed thay had no idea there were shows booked are similar. How many times do I have to point it out?


Both bands decided they didn't want to play the shows they hadn't agreed on playing. Again, yes one band cancelled the whole tour while the other band had actually agreed to do a bunch of shows and only ended up cancelling a few at the end. You twist the words, but the meaning is still the same. They both cancelled shows they claim they had no idea were booked.

That's the only similarity I see. You don't see it, fine.





/jarmo

no dude... i've said all along that there is a similarity- i haven't disagreed with you on that point. but don't act like that's all you were saying. these were the points you made in your initial posts: a) both bands cancelled shows and made the same excuse, b) people laughed at gnr when they did it, but for some reason they trust vr, c) nothing else matters. The logical conclusion that follows from an argument that consists SOLELY of these three points is d) people are hypocrites for treating the two bands differently. Come on man, just because you don't openly say part d doesn't mean that it's not your intended thesis. I've gotten into enough discussions with you to know that you always beat around the bush and don't get caught saying something that will directly 100% incriminate you as supporting one side or another. it's very clever, as you try hard to remain neutral, but you're clearly biased. my roommate argues the same way about politics (he's a republican but refuses to admit it, so he always poses questionsor states facts without offering an opinion on them or stating his actual point of view).

Anway, your basic argument was "isn't it odd that axl and vr did the same thing, except people laughed at axl and support vr?"

can you please explain what your purpose was for posting that in the vr section, other than to get people to defend either why they laughed at axl or why they support vr? Because the only answers you could have to a question like that are either: 1) "yes, it is odd that there is a different reaction, people should not have been so quick to jump on axl"; 2) "yes, it is odd that there is a different reaction, people should be more skeptical of vr"; or 3) "no, it's not odd , people reacted appropriately".

So, since you brought up the issue, do you mind sharing which of those answers you agree with (or if you can come up with a 4th)? I side with 3. My bet is that most people here will side with 3. The other two options are clearly designed to put alot of people on the defensive.

[Walapino]

Axl's reputation with the touring issue is very poor, I really dont expect anyone to react the same way to an Axl cancelation than to any other band for that matter.
You can fantasize all you want but Axl has a lot of work to do before even thinking about getting a good reputation to actually be able to cancel a show and not be flamed.

[Falcon]

Axl's reputation with the touring issue is very poor, I really dont expect anyone to react the same way to an Axl cancelation than to any other band for that matter.
You can fantasize all you want but Axl has a lot of work to do before even thinking about getting a good reputation to actually be able to cancel a show and not be flamed.

Agreed.

The perception of Axl and his ability to make shows and complete tours is vastly different than that of his former bandmates.

Unfortunately, his reputation preceeds him...

[jemin]

Matt: We didn't know those shows were booked.

He never said that in the email.  Thats what you got out of it.  What he said:

"We did knock a week off the end [of the tour]. Everyone is tired. We never planned on touring Europe more than five weeks but management and the agents kept adding dates and before we know it, it was up to seven weeks and after completing an eight-week run in the States with only a three-day break, we need a real break. So that's the story, other than that all is good, just need a break and some rest."

[jarmo]

can you please explain what your purpose was for posting that in the vr section

To maybe have somebody think the way I did when I read it: "Funny how they used a similar excuse as Axl did years ago".


It's also kinda funny how Scott is currently talking about how the press sucks. Where have we heard something similar before?

Please, go on and post about how Axl and Scott were complaining about the press for different reasons. ?That's a joke by the way.


Some things that VR are going through remind me of similar things that have happened to GN'R in the past. If you don't agree, I don't care.

You can fantasize all you want but Axl has a lot of work to do before even thinking about getting a good reputation to actually be able to cancel a show and not be flamed.

He was flamed for giving a bad excuse like not knowing the dates were booked. Which is funny in itself. Now, Matt says almost the same thing and it's just fine. I still think it's funny/interesting. That's my opinion.

If Matt had said "We're tired, we need to go home. Sorry guys, we'll be back" it'd be a different situation. But he sort of blamed it on the agents etc (just like Axl). That's the little interesting twist to the story in my opinion. ?




/jarmo

[AxlGunner]

Matt: We didn't know those shows were booked.

He never said that in the email.? Thats what you got out of it.? What he said:

"We did knock a week off the end [of the tour]. Everyone is tired. We never planned on touring Europe more than five weeks but management and the agents kept adding dates and before we know it, it was up to seven weeks and after completing an eight-week run in the States with only a three-day break, we need a real break. So that's the story, other than that all is good, just need a break and some rest."

perhaps the most sucinct rebuttle possible. ?

here's how it probably happened: management adds a date, vr says ok. management adds another date, vr says ok. management adds another date, vr says ok. after this happens a whole lot, vr finally realize- hey wait this has really turned out longer than we initially had planned. we're starting to get tired and want to go back to our original plan of just 5 weeks, so let's cancel the last couple shows.

that scenario is perfectly plausible based on what matt said. also more likely than it being interpreted to mean "we didn't know those shows were even booked", because quite clearly they knew they were booked, it just didn't hit them that the last couple weeks that they hadn't originally intended would be so tough on them. ?

[mikegiuliana]

maybe they did like you do when you are starving and go to a diner.. You order a lot of food then you  realise your eyes were bigger then your stomach and you food left over..

[AxlGunner]

If Matt had said "We're tired, we need to go home. Sorry guys, we'll be back" it'd be a different situation.
/jarmo

"after completing an eight-week run in the States with only a three-day break, we need a real break. So that's the story, other than that all is good, just need a break and some rest."

so it would've been completely different if he said "we'll be back"? i think with vr, we KNOW they'll be back- they don't need to reassure us; this isn't gnr.

Also, as already stated just before, "management and the agents kept adding dates and before we know it, it was up to seven weeks" doesn't imply "we didn't know they were adding dates". ?the phrase "before we know it" is an expression that shouldn't be taken literally- it is usually used to mean something like "before we actually had a chance to sit back and think about what happened".