Appetite for Production.

[Voodoochild]

He 'only played power chords'? Newsflash darling - that's what punk rock is all about! Those guys were trying to get rid of long guitar solos and complex song structures in favour of 3-minute songs with a few power chords slammed together and a badass attitude. Have you listened to his Wild Horses solo spots on the Illusion tour? Yowsa! Probably one of the best Stones covers (it counts as a cover in my opinion, even though it's really a guitar solo based on the song) ever.

Hey, I'm not talkin' about punk rock, but Guns N' Roses. TSI is not the only way to hear Gilby's work, as you already said when you talked about Wild Horses. And yeah, it's cool, but this is just a jam with Slash. Listen to Izzy in Rocket Queen (even live) and then listen to Gilby. You'll know what I'm talkin' about.

But the swirling orchestral stuff shouldn't be there.

There's no orchestral stuff in Estranged.

[W. Botaxl Rose]

I remember thinking the first time i gave a listen to TSI that it was crisper/clearer than previous GNR discs.

I would also say Lies is the least produced as they recorded the entire 2nd side in one session. So it's hard to say it was well produced when there wasn't much production involved. It's obviously great though.

I favor AFD over the UYI's because I think theres a little too much production on the UYI's. The UYI's definitely have their moments though.

[AxemanOnFire]

He 'only played power chords'? Newsflash darling - that's what punk rock is all about! Those guys were trying to get rid of long guitar solos and complex song structures in favour of 3-minute songs with a few power chords slammed together and a badass attitude. Have you listened to his Wild Horses solo spots on the Illusion tour? Yowsa! Probably one of the best Stones covers (it counts as a cover in my opinion, even though it's really a guitar solo based on the song) ever.

Hey, I'm not talkin' about punk rock, but Guns N' Roses. TSI is not the only way to hear Gilby's work, as you already said when you talked about Wild Horses. And yeah, it's cool, but this is just a jam with Slash. Listen to Izzy in Rocket Queen (even live) and then listen to Gilby. You'll know what I'm talkin' about.

Don't get me wrong, Stradlin' is easily the second greatest rhythmn player in thhe world (behind Keef, obviously). #But I just think Gilby's cool too. This ain't really getting anywhere, is it? I just don't think anything will get me to like Paul 'Pronounced Hoo-gey' Tobias, or the circumstances of his coming to play with Guns. Y'know, I mean still consider him GN'R's Yoko.

But the swirling orchestral stuff shouldn't be there.

There's no orchestral stuff in Estranged.

Okay, the swirling stringy-violin-type stuff. You know what I mean, the first few verses.

[Voodoochild]

But the swirling orchestral stuff shouldn't be there.

There's no orchestral stuff in Estranged.

Okay, the swirling stringy-violin-type stuff. You know what I mean, the first few verses.

You mean Slash working with the volume knob in his guitar? This is one of the best things in the song, IMO, and I'm sure that's why Axl put "thanks for the killer riffs" or something...

[AxemanOnFire]

No, not that bit. Hmm... On listening through my hi-fi headphones, I can't hear the bit I heard before . Might be these crappy speakers; but I still say Estranged would work better with less in-studio fiddling.

[michaelvincent]

I remember thinking the first time i gave a listen to TSI that it was crisper/clearer than previous GNR discs.

Which is ironic considering that an album full of punk covers would probably benefit from a grungier, more garage production. I thought TSI was kind of crappy because it sounded way too slick to be a believeable attempt at a punk tribute.

[AdZ]

There's nothing even RESEMBLING orchestral work in Estranged. You sir, are talking out of your ass.

[AxemanOnFire]

There's nothing even RESEMBLING orchestral work in Estranged. You sir, are talking out of your ass.

Would you rather fifty Hail Marys or fifty Our Fathers as penance?

[AdZ]

I'd rather you did some checks before going on mad rants but, it's cool whatever works for you.

[AxemanOnFire]

I'd rather you did some checks before going on mad rants but, it's cool whatever works for you.

Well, okay fine. It's been a while since I've given either UYI a spin (for the previously listed reasons), I just remember some swirly type shit going on somewhere near the beginning - perhaps I confused Estranged with November Rain. I object to 'mad rant' though - considering some of the mad rants there have been on this message board, that was far from a mad rant.

And Estranged is still overproduced. Bite me.

[GNR_Green]

You must be thinking of November Rain Axemanonfire.  Estranged is piano, guitar, drum, bass and vocal only.  And it's awesome.  November Rain has shit-loads of strings, horns (electronic) etc.

AFD - for me what lets it down is the lack of bass, it needs bringing out.  Appetite would sound fu(king heavy if the bass sounded as it's played.  There's nothing coming out the speakers unless you have it cranked right up, even then it's not enough.  The drums are a little OTT as well, but the rest is fine.

Lies - great, wouldn't change it in any way.

UYI 1 - good overall, but too many unecessary touches.  I hate those deep voice things that appear on some songs.  For me the bass is still the big problem.  Where oh where is the bass hiding on Bad Obsession?  Compare that to Don't Cry where it's there in spades and you'll see what I mean.  Some of Axl's vocals could be a little tidier and clearer.  Drums are ok, they're just being played a bit robotically.  Mike Clink sucks imo.

UYI 2 - as above for 1.  Bass is hiding on YCBM of all songs, while it's there on 14 Years, Civil War etc.  YCBM should sound heavy but sounds, well, unheavy.  It still rules though.  Breakdown could be an unbelievable song if it weren't for the production, it's appalling, even I could prob do better.  My World should be kept in for the sake of completion!

TSI? - the best production is on here folks.  Guitars mix well, the drumming is great, the vocals are mostly great, hell even the bass isn't bad!  SIDHY is a cool song, the vocals are immense.

SFTD & OMG - don't think Sympathy... is too bad, overproduced though it is.  Oh My God is more like a demo than anything else.  I'm sure there's an unreleased finished article, I'd love to hear it cos the song fu(king kicks arse.

[ppbebe]

On the Contrary I thought the orchestral work on NR was rather half assed. Could be more refined.

Oh My God...... I'm sure there's an unreleased finished article, I'd love to hear it cos the song fu(king kicks arse.

Ra-Amen to that.

[AxlsMainMan]

I remember thinking the first time i gave a listen to TSI that it was crisper/clearer than previous GNR discs.

Which is ironic considering that an album full of punk covers would probably benefit from a grungier, more garage production. I thought TSI was kind of crappy because it sounded way too slick to be a believeable attempt at a punk tribute.

I have to agree with that too. I am very pleased with all the punk covers on that album as GnR actually did the material justice but to me the production and sound quality is waaaay to polished for genuine 70's/80's punk rock.

UYI 2 - as above for 1.  Bass is hiding on YCBM of all songs, while it's there on 14 Years, Civil War etc.  YCBM should sound heavy but sounds, well, unheavy.  It still rules though.  Breakdown could be an unbelievable song if it weren't for the production, it's appalling, even I could prob do better.  My World should be kept in for the sake of completion!

I dont know what quality of a sound system or portable cd player you use perhaps, but I have never had difficulty identifying the bass in YCBM, on the contrary I think Duff's riffs compliment the rhythm of the song perfectly. Maybe the production on Breakdown isnt "flawless" but I wouldnt change a thing on it because the song is a true gem for me at least..The majority of people hated My World but i take it for what it was, just Axl killing some time in the studio probably, although it was a proverbial "taste of things to come" a' la"Oh My God"

[GNR_Green]

When I say the bass is hiding I don't mean I can't detect it, rather it's just not what it should be.  Duff can be playing a 'heavy' note and it doesn't come out of the speakers as actual bass.  I have a decent stereo (140w x2) and even when the sub's fully on the bass isn't really there.  Compare that to well-produced things like the Black album etc and it's soft in comparison.  I have to agree with you on Breakdown, I love it, but improvements can definately be made.

Also nobody has mentioned the Tokyo DVD's.  A reason I believe they're embarassing to hear for some GNR fans is the productions is total bollocks.  I mean can you even hear the rhythm section?  Gilby's almost mute and they didn't bring any bass out at all.  Even the kick drum's restrained.  Whover was in charge of the DVD re-releases must be retarded or just never bothered to assess the sound.

I honestly beleive some of GNR's production flaws let them down in the popularity stakes as far as casual listeners are concerned.

[Dead N' Bloated]

Well so far the demos from CD have much better production then the other albums i think. What do you recon???


 

[EccoTides]

Cool Topic, here're my thoughts:

AFD: It sounds fine, but the fact is that it is definitely a dated mix being that it's a mid-1980s record. Still, the production is clear and everything seems almost perfectly balanced - Its only flaw is that it could use a little more "umph" with a remaster or something.

Lies: Obviously the most "unproduced" of the bunch, but it totally works for the record.

UYI I: Ah, problems. There're a lot of issues here: Ham-fisted drumming and barely audible rhythm guitar, spotty vocal mixes, and on the whole the guitars just sound too diluted for the most part. Also has issues with overproduction - I HATE that fucking "deep" voice that pops up on both UYI records.

UYI II: Pretty much the same issues plague this record, though the vocals received a better mix here.  The DEEP VOICE is still annoying. Overproduction mars a couple of otherwise fantastic songs (Breakdown, You Could Be Mine).

TSI: Awesome mix, sounds bold and up-to-date, with a much better drum sound and fiercer guitar sounds. Strange too, considering that it's an album of punk covers and it receives the most impressive mix treatment of the bunch. Still, the album sounds terrific.

Oh My God: The most debated mix of any GNR track. Personally, I love it - The song is overproduced to hell, but the mix is balanced and everything sounds just right. Yeah, there's arguably too much going on - But it's a balanced mix, in my opinion.

[Chief]

in you guys' analyses, are you listening on a high end system or headphones? i think that would make a big difference....

[Axlative]

in you guys' analyses, are you listening on a high end system or headphones? i think that would make a big difference....

And what exactly would that difference be???

It doesn't matter whether it's speakers or headphones. High-end is high-end and crap is crap. Although you're probably bound to hear details relatively better on headphones.

[Shoeboy]

1. TSI
2. AFD
3. LIES
4. Sympathy
5. UYI 1/2 (tie)
6. Oh My God

I always thought the Illusions sounded muddy as hell.  I don't know if this is because there were too many elements stacked on top of each other, but there is a lot of the sounds are lost and there isn't a lot of seperation between them.  But the worst by far is Oh My God.  Just complete sludge.  Love the song and the arrangement of the music, but it sounds like an old analog Walkman when the battery is running out.

I think Spaghetti is razor fucking sharp, and Appetite is Appetite.  Lies sounds pristine, but how much 'production' really went into it.  Mike the drums, guitars, tell everyone to shut up, and lock Axl in the booth.

Shoeboy

[kaasupoltin]

I have never really even thought about the production/mixing thing.. I love all of the records and that's enough for me But one thing I hate is the Live Era -album.. didn't they re-record some of the parts for it? Bootlegs sounds much more better