Newsweek Story Causes Violence in Afghanistan

[SLCPUNK]

punk - just because you hate this president and are against the war, doesn't make you some sort of "independent thinker". you're just one of millions and millions that feel the same way.

and just because i like this president and think he has done a good job in office doesn't mean i am NOT an independent thinker.

when you make assumptions like that, and constantly throw those types of "i'm better than you statements" out there, you lose all credibilty.


"i actually voted for the war" - j. kerry

hahahaha. fucking hilarious.

Ahhh....the sandman.

Too bad somebody could not sweep you off the stage.

Ignore my posts, rant and rave about what you think I write.

How can you claim to be a thinker, if you don't even read what I write in the first place?

Bottom line: Abuse, including Koran mistreatment as occured. Newsweek recanted because of government pressure.

A true shame for a society that calls itself democratic.

[jgfnsr]

Bottom line: Abuse, including Koran mistreatment as occured. Newsweek recanted because of government pressure.

A true shame for a society that calls itself democratic.

Ironically, I have the feeling if our opponents were to "mistreat" the Bible during interrogations of their own, you wouldn't say a damn thing.

Go figure....

[GnRNightrain]

Bottom line: Abuse, including Koran mistreatment as occured. Newsweek recanted because of government pressure.

Yet you have no evidence for this. ?So much for your strict scrutiny of stories. ?

You fail to tackle the underlying issue in all of this because you are blinded by what you think otherwise exonerates the Bush administration or the military of such abuse. ?Printing the story as Isikoff did was wrong. ?He cited a source that didnt exist and misled people into thinking that a government official gave him the story. ?The only evidence that you have that this is true is the stories given by prisoners at Guantanamo. ?Thus, he shouldnt have printed the story the way he did. ?If that was the only evidence then he should have said that was his source. ?The accuracy of the story changes depending on the source. ?I dont know why you cant understand this.

[SLCPUNK]

Nice to see that our press has learned to corroborate its stories before it prints them.? You would think they would have learned a lesson after the CBS debacle.?

The press should be extremely careful on corroborating the stories that they print since these stories cost american lives overseas.

Well GNRNightrain, looks like the chips fell and once again you are wrong.

The Pentagon has announced that there was Koran abuse afterall, proving Newsweek's story to be true.
I guess you'll go and claim it's some liberal conspiracy inside the Pentagon now huh?

Just like the liberal coverup that stoppped us from finding WMD over in Iraq.?

In all fairness, there were some reports of unintentional abuse, however the fact remains that there was intentional Koran abuse at this camp, and newsweek was only wrong in pulling the story.

Maybe you should be more careful yourself nextime befor running with a story...eh?

[GnRNightrain]

Nice to see that our press has learned to corroborate its stories before it prints them.? You would think they would have learned a lesson after the CBS debacle.?

The press should be extremely careful on corroborating the stories that they print since these stories cost american lives overseas.

Well GNRNightrain, looks like the chips fell and once again you are wrong.

The Pentagon has announced that there was Koran abuse afterall, proving Newsweek's story to be true.
I guess you'll go and claim it's some liberal conspiracy inside the Pentagon now huh?

Just like the liberal coverup that stoppped us from finding WMD over in Iraq.?

In all fairness, there were some reports of unintentional abuse, however the fact remains that there was intentional Koran abuse at this camp, and newsweek was only wrong in pulling the story.

Maybe you should be more careful yourself nextime befor running with a story...eh?

My gosh SLC.  If you had read one fucking sentence in any of my posts you would realize that I never said that it didnt happen.  Here are some of the quotes I made in previous posts in this thread:

Im not denying it happened

Whether it actually existed or not is besides the point.

Its not whether the story could have been or is true

Just to let you know SLC, this doesnt exonerate Isikoff at all.  Tell me where the report says that they were flushing koran's down the toilette?  Stepping on a koran or kicking one is far different than flushing one down the toilette.  Again, your post does exactly the opposite of what you intended it to do.

I urge you again: re-read my posts slowly so that you can understand my argument.  Just remember, it has less to do with any culpability of the Bush administration and our soldiers, and more to do with responsible journalism.  Of course, after reading some of the articles that you have posted over the past year or two Im not sure really care about the latter. 

[GnRNightrain]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/02/AR2005060201750.html

Here is an editorial you should read on this.? Here are some of my favorite parts:

"In March the Navy inspector general reported that, out of about 24,000 interrogations at Guantanamo, there were seven confirmed cases of abuse, "all of which were relatively minor." In the eyes of history, compared to any other camp in any other war, this is an astonishingly small number. Two of the documented offenses involved "female interrogators who, on their own initiative, touched and spoke to detainees in a sexually suggestive manner." Not exactly the gulag."



"Let's understand what mishandling means. Under the rules the Pentagon later instituted at Guantanamo, proper handling of the Koran means using two hands and wearing gloves when touching it. Which means that if any guard held the Koran with one hand or had neglected to put on gloves, this would be considered mishandling.? On the scale of human crimes, where, say, 10 is the killing of 2,973 innocent people in one day and 0 is jaywalking, this ranks as perhaps a 0.01."


"Moreover, what were the Korans doing there in the first place? The very possibility of mishandling Korans arose because we gave them to each prisoner. What kind of crazy tolerance is this? Is there any other country that would give a prisoner precisely the religious text that that prisoner and those affiliated with him invoke to justify the slaughter of innocents? If the prisoners had to have reading material, I would have given them the book "Portraits 9/11/01" -- vignettes of the lives of those massacred on Sept. 11."


Here is the important part for all of you that can still see hypocrisy when you see it:
"Even greater hypocrisy is to be found here at home. Civil libertarians, who have been dogged in making sure that FBI-collected Guantanamo allegations are released to the world, seem exquisitely sensitive to mistreatment of the Koran. A rather selective scrupulousness. When an American puts a crucifix in a jar of urine and places it in a museum, civil libertarians rise immediately to defend it as free speech. And when someone makes a painting of the Virgin Mary, smears it with elephant dung and adorns it with porn, not only is that free speech, it is art -- deserving of taxpayer funding and an ACLU brief supporting the Brooklyn Museum when the mayor freezes its taxpayer subsidy."

For any of you that have ever read Sports Illustrated, this past quote reminded me of the weekly caption: "This Weeks Sign that the Apocalypse is Upon Us"

[SLCPUNK]

Nice to see that our press has learned to corroborate its stories before it prints them.  You would think they would have learned a lesson after the CBS debacle. 

The press should be extremely careful on corroborating the stories that they print since these stories cost american lives overseas.

There are people who's absolute loathing and hatred for the current U.S. administration cloud their judgment and common sense.

No doubt both you and I could think of more than a few right here on this board...

Yea, I guess the Pentagon has clouded judgment too.

I will ask that the title of this thread be renamed. Possible new names:

Pentagon confirms Newsweek story/Violence continues in Middle east

Newsweek turns out to be right/poster of thread apologizes

Tales from the Pentagon/Good for me to "poop on"

Koran monologes/We're #1, at # 2

Just throwin' some stuff out for ya.

[Doc Emmett Brown]

from the Drudge Report:

U.S. details Guantanamo 'mishandling' of Koran
Jun 4, 7:04 AM (ET)

By Will Dunham

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. military for the first time on Friday detailed how jailers at Guantanamo mishandled the Koran, including a case in which a guard's urine splashed through a vent onto the Islamic holy book and others in which it was kicked, stepped on and soaked in water.

U.S. Southern Command, responsible for the prison for foreign terrorism suspects at the U.S. naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, described five cases of "mishandling" of a Koran by U.S. personnel confirmed by a newly completed military inquiry, officials said in a statement.

In the incident involving urine, which took place this past March, Southern Command said a guard left his observation post, went outside and urinated near an air vent, and "the wind blew his urine through the vent" and into a cell block.

It said a detainee told guards the urine "splashed on him and his Koran." The statement said the detainee was given a new prison uniform and Koran, and that the guard was reprimanded and given duty in which he had no contact with prisoners. Army Capt. John Adams, a spokesman at Guantanamo, said the inquiry deemed the incident "accidental."

Southern Command said a civilian contractor interrogator apologized in July 2003 to a detainee for stepping on his Koran. The interrogator "was later terminated for a pattern of unacceptable behavior, an inability to follow direct guidance and poor leadership," the statement said.

In August 2003, prisoners' Korans became wet when night-shift guards threw water balloons in a cell block, the statement said. In February 2002, guards kicked a prisoner's Koran, it added.

In the fifth confirmed incident of mishandling a Koran, Southern Command said a prisoner in August 2003 complained that "a two-word obscenity" had been written in English in his Koran. Southern Command said it was "possible" a guard had written the words but "equally possible" the prisoner himself had done it. It did not offer an explanation of the detainee's possible motive.

'NEVER CONDONED'

"Mishandling a Koran at Guantanamo Bay is a rare occurrence. Mishandling of a Koran here is never condoned," Brig. Gen. Jay Hood, commander of the Guantanamo prison who headed the inquiry, said in the statement released after business hours on Friday night.

Hood disclosed on May 26 that the inquiry, announced May 11, had turned up five cases of "mishandling of a Koran" by U.S. personnel at Guantanamo, but declined at the time to describe the incidents other than saying they did not involve flushing one down a toilet.

Southern Command launched the inquiry after a May 9 Newsweek article, later retracted by the magazine, that stated U.S. interrogators at Guantanamo had flushed a Koran down a toilet to try to make detainees talk. Violent protests erupted in some Muslim countries following the article's publication and at least 16 people died in rioting in Afghanistan.

In the statement, Hood reiterated that the inquiry found "no credible evidence" that a member of the military joint task force at Guantanamo ever flushed a Koran down a toilet. "The matter is considered closed," Hood stated.

Chief Pentagon spokesman Lawrence Di Rita, in Singapore with Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, said Southern Command's policy on proper handling of the Koran was "serious, respectful and appropriate. The Hood inquiry would appear to affirm that policy."

Hood said there were four additional incidents of "alleged mishandling" of the Koran that "we cannot determine conclusively if they actually happened." These involved prisoners' complaints that jailers kicked and put a foot on the Koran, threw it into a bag of wet towels, and told a detainee the book "belonged in the toilet."

Hood said the inquiry "reviewed every available detainee record," including a search of 31,000 pages of documents such a day-to-day logs, court papers filed by prisoners and allegations in 38 news articles. But officials said they were aware of only one interview conducted in the inquiry.

The United States holds about 520 detainees at Guantanamo, most caught in Afghanistan, and has classified them "enemy combatants" not entitled to rights given to prisoners of war under the Geneva Conventions. The high-security prison opened in January 2002 for non-U.S. citizens caught in the U.S. war on terrorism, and many prisoners have been held more than three years without charges.

President Bush and Rumsfeld this week defended Guantanamo from criticism by Amnesty International, which called the jail the "gulag of our times."

(Additional reporting by Carol Giacomo in Singapore)

[SLCPUNK]

Nightrain you are a sad boy.

You start a thread to point the finger at naughty newsweek for their 'fake story', and their 'rush to take down the white-house'.

But in the end you are reduced to pointing the finger at "Civil libertarians" and what you believe is hyporisy. If that is what you want to talk about, then start another thread.

We are talking about abuse that occured at this camp. Abuse you claimed that newsweek made up to take Bush down. Abuse that the White house denied and then had the gall to cry about.

When it comes to light, you point away and change the subject.

So it appears that Newsweek got the guist of the story correct. We torture these guys, desecrate their religious book, both a violaton of the Geneva Convention, and you still can't give it up. Face it, America is guilty of abuse in this camp. No matter how small a percentage of the gaurds ruin it for the rest, it happened.

[Jamie]

Bottom line: Abuse, including Koran mistreatment as occured. Newsweek recanted because of government pressure.

A true shame for a society that calls itself democratic.

Ironically, I have the feeling if our opponents were to "mistreat" the Bible during interrogations of their own, you wouldn't say a damn thing.

Go figure....

I have the feeling if the "opponents" were to mistreat the Bible there would be much more people dead than there is now, most likely bombings, excecutions, and torture would occure, and Mr. Bush would have a thing or two to say. The Americans have constantly mistreated these people ever since the war started and they are only standing up for their rights, there would have been much worse consequences had a Muslim mistreated the Bible.

[GnRNightrain]

Nightrain you are a sad boy.

OK SLC

You start a thread to point the finger at naughty newsweek for their 'fake story', and their 'rush to take down the white-house'.

I posted a story about Newsweek's being irresponsible.  Something you still fail to see.

But in the end you are reduced to pointing the finger at "Civil libertarians" and what you believe is hyporisy. If that is what you want to talk about, then start another thread.

Actually, in the end you have failed to understand my position after about 10 posts in this thread.  You fail to directly respond to what I say because you find it easier to make-up what you believe my position is.  My position remains the same, and is spelled out in the previous 10 posts I have made on this thread.  I posted the article because I thought it was relevant on the subject.  It also brings forwared the hypocrisy of so-called civil libertarians that have failed to criticize Newseek on this story, but continue to make it look like the US has a torture camp.
 
Dont worry, I wouldnt expect you to respond to any of the substance of the article, expecially the highlighted portions.  Those are things that Im sure you just glance over because it doesnt promote your agenda.

We are talking about abuse that occured at this camp. Abuse you claimed that newsweek made up to take Bush down. Abuse that the White house denied and then had the gall to cry about.

It would be a lot easier if you actually tried to respond to my post.  That way my position is there for people to see.  Instead you just choose to write what you want, and respond to what you want.  In the end you are saying the same thing, and you continue to respond to any of the points that I made.

So I urge you to respond to my last post.  Again, I never said nothing happened at Guantanamo.  However, I thought it was funny that what came out from the Pentagon actually refutes what newseek said.  Flushing Koran's down the toilet is not the same as kicking one.  In addition, it was not a widespread tactic used by the interrogators.  In fact, there were only 7 such claims.  Perhaps two that would really be considered offensive. 

Again, please respond to what I write instead of responding to what you think my position is.

When it comes to light, you point away and change the subject.

Really, actually I responded directly to your post.  Something that you have failed to do for quite some time.  Again, I never stuff happened.  You just fail to understand the argument.

So it appears that Newsweek got the guist of the story correct.

Is that all they are supposed to do?  Get the gist of the story?  What happened to the strict scrutiny of stories?  In fact, what Newseek said was not true.  Will you at least admit that what has happened is far more mild than Newseek alleged? 

We torture these guys, desecrate their religious book, both a violaton of the Geneva Convention, and you still can't give it up. Face it, America is guilty of abuse in this camp. No matter how small a percentage of the gaurds ruin it for the rest, it happened.

Certainly it has happened.  But look at the numbers.  In addition, look at what constitutes abuse.  And I ask you this: Is there any other country that would give a prisoner precisely the religious text that that prisoner and those affiliated with him invoke to justify the slaughter of innocents?


Please answer my previous posts instead of making up my position.  At least that way it is there for others to see that you are misreading my position.

[sandman]

Nice to see that our press has learned to corroborate its stories before it prints them.? You would think they would have learned a lesson after the CBS debacle.?

The press should be extremely careful on corroborating the stories that they print since these stories cost american lives overseas.

Well GNRNightrain, looks like the chips fell and once again you are wrong.

The Pentagon has announced that there was Koran abuse afterall, proving Newsweek's story to be true.
I guess you'll go and claim it's some liberal conspiracy inside the Pentagon now huh?

Just like the liberal coverup that stoppped us from finding WMD over in Iraq.?

In all fairness, there were some reports of unintentional abuse, however the fact remains that there was intentional Koran abuse at this camp, and newsweek was only wrong in pulling the story.

Maybe you should be more careful yourself nextime befor running with a story...eh?

"proving newsweek's story to be true"

the shit you post is so crazy i don't know if you're joking or you just can't read.

am i missing something here???

the report says that the koran was NOT put in a toilet.

newsweek not only said that it was put in a toilet, but that it was done purposely while questioning detainees to force them to talk.

the pentagon found a few "mishandlings" of the koran, which were all basically accidents, AND primarily based on the what detainees reported (when they are TRAINED to make up shit against jailers.....it's in their manuals!).

if anything, this is a positive for the pentagon because it shows 2 things:

1. that they do monitor ALL inproper actions by prison guards (no matter how minor).

AND

2. they reprimand these guards for these minor actions (even before public pressure builds)

[GnRNightrain]

Bottom line: Abuse, including Koran mistreatment as occured. Newsweek recanted because of government pressure.

A true shame for a society that calls itself democratic.

Ironically, I have the feeling if our opponents were to "mistreat" the Bible during interrogations of their own, you wouldn't say a damn thing.

Go figure....

I have the feeling if the "opponents" were to mistreat the Bible there would be much more people dead than there is now, most likely bombings, excecutions, and torture would occure, and Mr. Bush would have a thing or two to say. The Americans have constantly mistreated these people ever since the war started and they are only standing up for their rights, there would have been much worse consequences had a Muslim mistreated the Bible.

Is that right? ?You do realize that it is illegal to be a Christian in Saudi Arabia? ?They burn the bible all of the time. ?In additon, in Bosnia there have been burnings of christian churches by Islamic militants. ?Moreover, there is basically a Holocaust of Christians in Sudan. ?If you are right, how come we fail to do anything about this stuff?

[sandman]

and another point.....the press plays a very important role in our society. citizens should be able to depend on them to deliver FACTS.

but when something like this happens (on the heels of the CBS scandal), the public loses trust in the media. and that defeats the whole purpose of the system. and that is sad. ?

[jgfnsr]

I have the feeling if the "opponents" were to mistreat the Bible there would be much more people dead than there is now, most likely bombings, excecutions, and torture would occure, and Mr. Bush would have a thing or two to say. The Americans have constantly mistreated these people ever since the war started and they are only standing up for their rights, there would have been much worse consequences had a Muslim mistreated the Bible.

I never thought the day would come when I'd find someone more clueless than SLCPUNK....

[SLCPUNK]

Whatever makes you guys feel better about yourself.

Pentagon has reported abuse of the Koran.

It's all over the news now.

Point away, change subjects, attack the author, I don't care.

It's business as usual.

Denial is something you guys used to at this point (see: WMD was why we went to war).

********

Jamie, ignore personal attacks, they are a sign of somebody holding no cards.

[sandman]

slcpunk - we're just analyzing the facts. without any spin. it's not about anyone feeling better about ourselves.

and the fact remains that your suggested change in the title of this thread ("newsweek turns out to be right"), simply is NOT true.

i'm not sure why it's so hard for you to admit you're wrong.

[Drew]

About the story causing protest and violence.

My question(s) is, why aren't these same muslims standing up to the Jihadist for the mass killings of their fellow muslims? Why aren't they out on the streets protesting and fighting back on that cause? They seem to care more about what Americans do to a book then what the Jihadist are doing to their religion and religious sisiters and brothers.

Is this another example of how humans are so 'in vain' over materialistic items of this world?

[Jamie]

Bottom line: Abuse, including Koran mistreatment as occured. Newsweek recanted because of government pressure.

A true shame for a society that calls itself democratic.

Ironically, I have the feeling if our opponents were to "mistreat" the Bible during interrogations of their own, you wouldn't say a damn thing.

Go figure....

I have the feeling if the "opponents" were to mistreat the Bible there would be much more people dead than there is now, most likely bombings, excecutions, and torture would occure, and Mr. Bush would have a thing or two to say. The Americans have constantly mistreated these people ever since the war started and they are only standing up for their rights, there would have been much worse consequences had a Muslim mistreated the Bible.

Is that right? ?You do realize that it is illegal to be a Christian in Saudi Arabia? ?They burn the bible all of the time. ?In additon, in Bosnia there have been burnings of christian churches by Islamic militants. ?Moreover, there is basically a Holocaust of Christians in Sudan. ?If you are right, how come we fail to do anything about this stuff?

Because George W cares about noone but his own, if they were American Christains he'd be right on it. He cares about America and America only, that is one of the main reasons I hate him so much, he's the leader of the world's most powerful country and that's all he cares about. The world's most powerful country, if they were bibles owned by Americans or a church used by Americans there would be immediate action.

[Jamie]

I have the feeling if the "opponents" were to mistreat the Bible there would be much more people dead than there is now, most likely bombings, excecutions, and torture would occure, and Mr. Bush would have a thing or two to say. The Americans have constantly mistreated these people ever since the war started and they are only standing up for their rights, there would have been much worse consequences had a Muslim mistreated the Bible.

I never thought the day would come when I'd find someone more clueless than SLCPUNK....

I never thought the day would come when I'd find someone stuck further up Bush's ass than Tony Blair.