Do You consider CD a follow up to Illusions?

[*Izzy*]

Yeah and I think it's pretty safe to say that if anything Tommy, Richard, Robin, Chris, Brain or Dizzy doesn't like then it's not gonna end up in CD coz Axl wants to do it (music on CD) as democratically as possible.

we are talking about the same man who put my world in UYI2 and the rest of the band didn't even know about that song right? And he did that to Slash, izzy and duff-imagine what he will do to a bunch of hired guns. I think that Axl Rose is the only one who has the final say regarding anything that goes on in gnr nowadays. He could change the entire track list (if something like that really exists) in a night and the rest of the "band" would know shit about it.

I agree? Not only can Axl knock any song off CD, he can knock any musician off aswell. It might be a band but Axl owns it? ?

  Izzy?

[ppbebe]

we are talking about the same man who put my world in UYI2 and the rest of the band didn't even know about that song right? And he did that to Slash, izzy and duff-imagine what he will do to a bunch of hired guns. I think that Axl Rose is the only one who has the final say regarding anything that goes on in gnr nowadays. He could change the entire track list (if something like that really exists) in a night and the rest of the "band" would know shit about it.

Evidently no. Says who? As far as I know, Duff from Velvet Revolver still likes My World.
Need I quote his sayings how much less Axl contributed to olde GN?R music than ppl think?

I'm not talking about an imaginary dictator from the past or imaginary hired guns.
I'm talking about the man who is the head of GN'R. I'm talking about the man who has started this Chinese Democracy and made music with Robin Bucket Brain Tommy Dizzy Chris and Richard who are/was with him in chasing the goal.

Tommy quotes
Q: What do you feel about the fact that this is an entirely revamped thing? Guns I mean.

That's actually the reason I joined. I talked to Axl about what he wanted to do with this thing. It's never been done before, where the singer keeps the name while the other guys fucking quit. Just knowing what his goals were for the whole thing that I thought 'This is probably the ballsiest guy I've ever fucking played with, so I'm in.'

Q: Who's easier to work with, Paul or Axl?

Axl, by a long shot. I'll tell you why, and I can explain this really well, actually. Paul liked to do it his way. He would hear things a certain way in his head but couldn't tell you how it was going to happen. It would get kind of frustrating. He would have a vision and would fucking beat it to death trying to get there. With Axl, he doesn't really have his own vision. He likes to take everyone's two cents and throw it into the soup, get everyone involved and kind of mold it that way. Axl could really take production credit on this record because he took the best of each of us on each song and crammed it together and made it a musical piece. I can't tell you how much I learned about collaborating with people while making the record, where Paul just kind of does it his way.

Q: It's interesting that you say that about Axl and his vision, because I would think most people would perceive the exact opposite?that he's got this strong vision and he's the dictator and this is how it's got to be.

Paul would be way more of a dictator than Axl. Axl is more of a collaborator, maybe even to a fault sometimes. He wants everyone involved. Part of that may have come from the old band, where everyone wanted him to sing their songs but didn't want to play the other guys' songs. It would be like, "I'm not going to sing on your song unless you play on his song," and then it becomes infighting and that kind of shit. That doesn't really keep a band together. On the new record, everyone's got a bit in there, their part of a song. It lends itself to us feeling a part of the whole record.

[*Izzy*]

Yeah Axl lets them put stuff on songs, on the album and even write songs, but in my opinion if Axl doesn't like something he is either going to throw it out or take 10 years to try and fix or improve it. There ain't gonna be anything on CD that Axl doesn't think is perfect to it's full potential?

  Izzy?

[ppbebe]

The Producers and the Band leaders do their business but that doesn't make them control freaks or egomaniacs.
Even Jimmy Page wasn't called so.

[greekmule]

I agree   Not only can Axl knock any song off CD, he can knock any musician off aswell. It might be a band but Axl owns it   

There ain't gonna be anything on CD that Axl doesn't think is perfect to it's full potential 

I agree 100%

Regarding the interview from Tommy that ppbebe posted, I never said that Axl tells every band member what to play. They can play whatever they want but Axl is the one who decides what stays on CD and what doesn't, who is in the band and who isn't,if the "band" tours or not etc...

So I guess that Axl is pretty democratic, in a chinese way

[Johnnyblood]

The Producers and the Band leaders do their business but that doesn't make them control freaks or egomaniacs. Even Jimmy Page wasn't called so.

Axl is a control freak, I thought everyone here knew that. I'm a control freak too, so I don't use the term as a put down.

I like and respect your thoughts, ppbebe. Nothing you've said here is untrue; everything I've seen is well reasoned and smart. But I don't think you are considering all aspects of this discussion. So in the interest of exploration, may I ask you a couple questions?

Do you think anyone else in the band would have chosen to postpone the album this long? Do you think Tommy and Dizzy, shortly after the 2002 tour, when they began telling us that the album was nearly ready, figured that the album would come out in 2005 or later? And the fact that it will come out at least three years after they first began telling us that is almost done, is that a choice they made? If Dizzy, Tommy, Richard, Buckethead, Brain, Chris, or Paul, individually or as a group, asked Axl to put the album out sooner, would Axl have done so (since they are equals, after all, and two or three or six of them together would outrank Axl with respect to band decisions)?

Tommy himself, talking about listening to final mixes last December, said he hadn't heard some of that stuff in years. He had nothing to do with those songs for years. Brain made a similar comment in the recent interview.

Once they lay down tracks, Axl obviously takes control of all that raw material and cherry picks parts of songs he likes and molds them according to his own vision. He has the vision, and he has the control and the power fulfill it. That seems so clear as to be incontestable.

I guess I'm wandering here. In response to the thread's question, I'll say it this way: Axl put this new band together so he could define its musical direction. He chose the musicians according to his own taste. All these musicians signed contracts Axl's that lawyers wrote. He let these musicians have a voice and allowed them to write (he probably needed that help). If it was something he liked, he would use it. If it was something he didn't like, he didn't use it.

Yes this is a follow up to Illusions.

[younggunner]

Do you think anyone else in the band would have chosen to postpone the album this long? Do you think Tommy and Dizzy, shortly after the 2002 tour, when they began telling us that the album was nearly ready, figured that the album would come out in 2005 or later? And the fact that it will come out at least three years after they first began telling us that is almost done, is that a choice they made? If Dizzy, Tommy, Richard, Buckethead, Brain, Chris, or Paul, individually or as a group, asked Axl to put the album out sooner, would Axl have done so (since they are equals, after all, and two or three or six of them together would outrank Axl with respect to band decisions)?

I understand what you are saying but no1 here{atleast me} is saying that Axl doesnt control those things. From the business side Axl CONTROLS its all. Tours, releases, etc. Its all Axl. Im sure he goes over everything with the band and for their suggestions/complaints but when its all said and done its all on Axl.

But in terms of the music side......its a complete band effort

[mikegiuliana]

how do you know it's a complete band effort on the music side?? Because tommy said axl lets them get involved..? It's axl's band and he has the final say in everything, a band no one has the final say, it's a group effort and can be shot down by anyone, I doubt that happens in axl's band.. These guys could all wait till the cows come home and they couldn't help get this album out.. If this was called the axl rose band these guys would walk out, they just know instant sucess will happen using the gnr name.. Axl has these guys out there with no info on the album, he makes them look like jackasses leaving them high and dry..

Shame because these guys are dedicated members, yet they get fucked over having to wait forever for axl who can't get one album out. He needs some equals involved so they could say enough and get the ablum out,,... Sounds pretty fucking selfish..

Let me add he probably does 99% of the vocals, especially anything epic, and his big self indulgent tunes.. Of course he doesn't do everything, he wasn't going to tell BH how to do his guitar work..

[younggunner]

how do you know it's a complete band effort on the music side?? Because tommy said axl lets them get involved..

Yes, Tommy,Brain,Richard and Dizzy have all said that its been a complete band effort. When they talk about the project they talk about it as if its their own...

It's axl's band and he has the final say in everything, a band no one has the final say, it's a group effort and can be shot down by anyone

so then old gnr werent a band either?

These guys could all wait till the cows come home and they couldn't help get this album out.

did i not mention this in my original post?

Shame because these guys are dedicated members, yet they get fucked over having to wait forever for axl who can't get one album out.

Probably the only true statement you have made. Good job?

He needs some equals involved so they could say enough and get the ablum out,,.

The old lineup couldnt do that what makes you think any lineup could?

Let me add he probably does 99% of the vocals, especially anything epic, and his big self indulgent tunes..

Ill take Axls masterpieces, aka self indulgent tunes over any "badass" rock n roll song out there today

If this was called the axl rose band these guys would walk out, they just know instant sucess will happen using the gnr name.. Axl has these guys out there with no info on the album, he makes them look like jackasses leaving them high and dry..

They dont seem to mind why should you? This isnt called the Axl Rose band. Its gnr. And by all accounts they are happy to be in it with Axl and each other. If you wanna be a cornball and think all they do is take orders all day thats your choice not mine. It just shows how much of a pussy you really are...

If you think Axl is writing all the guitar, bass, and drum parts your dumb as fuck. But hey maybe Axl has become a master of all trades...highly doubt it though. But think as you wish homefuck

[disease51883]

But think as you wish homefuck

I agree with your posts a lot of the time. But please don't say "homefuck".

[Mr. Sinister]

A follow up to the Illusions? Not in my view, really...

I think that the new material is really a redefinition of GNR, and ultimately Axl's last word on what GNR should sound like in this era.

The Illusions were, as they said on VH1, the original band's last creative gasp.. and I don't think that Axl's trying to erase those albums or make up for them - They are what they are, just as CD will be.

[younggunner]

But please don't say "homefuck".

my apologies...

[Johnnyblood]

I understand what you are saying but no1 here{atleast me} is saying that Axl doesnt control those things. From the business side Axl CONTROLS its all. Tours, releases, etc. Its all Axl. Im sure he goes over everything with the band and for their suggestions/complaints but when its all said and done its all on Axl.

But in terms of the music side......its a complete band effort

Okay, well put. But what about the last part of my post? This part deals with the creative end. I'll paraphrase it here:

In response to the thread's question, I'll say it this way: Axl put this new band together so he could define its musical direction. He chose the musicians according to his own taste. All these musicians signed contracts Axl's that lawyers wrote. He let these musicians have a voice and allowed them to write (he probably needed that help). If it was something he liked, he would use it. If it was something he didn't like, he didn't use it.

I don't think it's possible to contradict any of this. And in that case, you kind of have to agree that the creative side of it is still all Axl. It begins with Axl and ends with Axl. In between is a little freedom and input from the players. But that's not the same as 'equal.'

It's like a movie studio that has in house screenwriters. The screenwriters come up with ideas. That's their job. But the studio accepts them or shoots them down according to their own interests. The studio and the screenwriters are not equals. Not even close.

And carrying that over to our discussion, Axl is analagous to the studio, and the band are the screenwriters.

[younggunner]

In response to the thread's question, I'll say it this way: Axl put this new band together so he could define its musical direction. He chose the musicians according to his own taste. All these musicians signed contracts Axl's that lawyers wrote. He let these musicians have a voice and allowed them to write (he probably needed that help). If it was something he liked, he would use it. If it was something he didn't like, he didn't use it.

I don't think it's possible to contradict any of this. And in that case, you kind of have to agree that the creative side of it is still all Axl. It begins with Axl and ends with Axl. In between is a little freedom and input from the players. But that's not the same as 'equal.'

For the most part I agree. BUt with a few exceptions. A lot of the members have joined the band based on recommendations from each band member. So its not like he went on a manhunt and hunted down the exact guys he weanted. If he didnt want certain guys, yea of course they wouldnt be there but you have to obiviously like some1 to play with them.

The other thing would be is...did any of that music stuff you just mentioned any different than old gnr? Axl had the final say in the old band as well. So in that regard its nothing new.

Axl might give more than a little freedom as well. Look at silk worms...like it or hate it...its not his song. he obiviously must like it somewhat but that doesnt mean he controlled the whole song etc....

Axl is no doubt the musical director and producer of this album. But he cant make all the sounds himself.

My whole point is that things are basically the same in terms of old gnr and new gnr music wise. The band makes the music, comes up with stuff...Axl decides whether he wants to do it or not. etc

[ppbebe]

Well,  Malcolm McAllen(sp?) and Vivian Westwood were the studio and the screenwriter and Johnny Rotten and co were puppets.

First off, thanks Johnnyblood. I love productive thinking and constructive discussion.

this in my first reply on this topic.

Spirit wise, Yes....that sweet convo with Wooody made me think so.

Musically, No

There're two things about Chinese Democracy.

side 1)The goals for the whole thing, which Axl has and the band members support.
side 2)The visions of music, which Axl doesn't have beforehand but let come out of mingling ideas of all the band members.

1.Do you think anyone else in the band would have chosen to postpone the album this long?
2.Do you think Tommy and Dizzy, shortly after the 2002 tour, when they began telling us that the album was nearly ready, figured that the album would come out in 2005 or later?
3.And the fact that it will come out at least three years after they first began telling us that is almost done, is that a choice they made?
4. If Dizzy, Tommy, Richard, Buckethead, Brain, Chris, or Paul, individually or as a group, asked Axl to put the album out sooner, would Axl have done so (since they are equals, after all, and two or three or six of them together would outrank Axl with respect to band decisions)?

As younnunner mentioned, these Qs belong to side 1)  but Gladly I show off my suppositions.
1. No.
2. No.
3. Yes and No..
I think the most part of the suspension was not anyone's choice. Even Axl himself said he wanted to make an announcement within the following few months in the RIR press release. Also I hear in 2000? GN'R official site said something. Just look at this post by Magadas?

Oh really....Axl told an Argentina radio station in Jan 01 that the cd would be out in June, maybe July of 01. Axl sent a fax to mtv after Slash left saying the album would be 12 tracks and would be out by summer of 97. Axl said in Dec 02 it would be out sometime in 2003. Axl said on March 30th 2004 that he would announce a release date in the next few months. Is a few months a year??  I don't believe Axl either. 

Brain once said "If it ever comes out".
Tommy has said his doing solo prevents him from barking up the wrong tree.
Logically speaking, it's natural to guess there had been some bloody tough obstacles in the way of CD release, which made Brain this pessimistic at the time and optimisic Tommy frustrated.

4. It's not in their charge but I dare say he would have respected their request if he could have done so.
Nevertheless they wouldn't bother him with the impossible demand knowing the above mentioned matter which they all understood about.

the originator must be the most eager to realize this thing.

Just a thought.

[Eva GnRAxlRosette]

I don't think its any/much different than with the old line-up


And in the August gnronline statement he said that some could say 'hey axl you wanted control of the band (too)'...
...Axl's response "Damn skippy"? ?
So, its not 'equal' ... never been
Axl said a long time ago that he is the one held responsible from day one.
He's said that he is the one that steers it...? ?(the band)
something about how you can't have more than one driver
The album will not be/isn't any less of a collaborative effort than AFD or UYIs
It is clear from the bandmembers comments - including Axl's own - that it is everyone bringing it in.?

great quotes btw ppbebe.. you rock! 

[killingvector]

Those quotes are awesome. Axl also spoke well to a fan after the Hard Rock shows in which he mentioned why the album is taking so long.

[Warren]

A singer who keeps the name of a band, it is something that has already been done before...

But it didn't really work...

[Mikkamakka]

Those quotes are awesome. Axl also spoke well to a fan after the Hard Rock shows in which he mentioned why the album is taking so long.

Yeah, and that was more than 4 years ago.

[mikegiuliana]

Ill take Axls masterpieces, aka self indulgent tunes over any "badass" rock n roll song out there today

Not me those overdone piano rockers are so boring, the newer tunes are missing good solos.. Maddy is so damn boring, the whole martin luther michael j fox civil war mix is super slow.