My final comparison, alice in chains lyrics vs u guessed it!

[Captain Obvious]

Bon Jovi sold a ton.  I give them credit, I'm not saying it's an easy thing to do. However, I don't see the correlation between their commercial success and the beauty in their music. Maybe I'm deaf, but the music doesn't move me. It might have a profound effect on someone else and I accept that. If it means alot to someone, who am I to tell them it shouldn't?

Also, you can't look at record sales. Bon Jovi writes catchy music, catchy music sells. Alot of bands do not. With some bands, it's not part of their goal to write a catchy hook.

By the way, those who haven't heard much of Layne Staley, I strongly suggest getting Long Day Gone by Mad Season. I think Bi Polar has mentioned this band in another thread. If you dl it and happen to hate it, let me know, if you love it, also let me know.

[POPmetal]

Listen to Dry County, listen to Hey God, listen to My Guitar Lies Bleeding In My Arms, listen to Something To Believe In and then come back and tell me that Bon Jovi writes only party songs or that their dark songs are just about breaking up with your girlfriend. Fact is, they address a variety of subjects.

Reread the post. Nobody ever said that Bon jovi writes only party songs.

Now, I love AIC, but that last comment was just plain ridiculous. Bon Jovi at their hight was the biggest band on the whole planet. Not only that, but they managed to transcend different rock scenes and survive for decades and to this day continue to sell millions of records while selling out stadiums. And you wanna talk about "impact on music as a whole?!?!" Sorry, but AIC doesn't even come close. Not only rock bands, but even groups like Destiny's Child claim to be inspired by Bon Jovi.

You must be fucking kidding me. I don't mean "who made the biggest impact on people's wallets". Bon Jovi might have inspired some bands here and there. AIC was heavily associated with a movement, as well as having its roots in? metal, it helped define the a large part of a decade in terms of rock music.

This discussion can continue for pages and pages, I doubt that it can change anybody's point of view. I don't think Bon Jovi is as talented as you claim him to be, I really don't see how you can change my mind. I also don't see how I can change yours. I don't see as much depth in his music as I do in AIC, and I doubt I will ever take them very seriously.

I don't really care about changing your mind. I'm just pointing out that you are wrong. You said that AIC made a greater impact on "music as a whole," which is just plain wrong. This is not a subjective opinion thing. Bon Jovi has had widespread impact throughout rock music and even beyond it, while you yourself admit that AIC's impact was limited to rock, particularly grunge and metal.

You claim that "AIC was heavily associated with a movement, as well as having its roots in? metal" but in an earlier post you said that AIC "were able to seperate themselves from what people labelled as grunge." Which is it? Were they "heavily associated" or were they "able to seperate themselves" from the grunge movement?

And if being heavily associated with a movement is supposed to be evidence of a band's great impact on music, then surly AIC association with grunge should have no bearing on this argument because, as you wrote earlier, "the only reason they are mentioned as part of the grunge movement is because they were from Seattle." So you conceded that their association with grunge was artificial, but then you still tried to pass it as evidence that they've had a greater impact on music It's hard to be convincing when when you shoot down your own arguments 

[Captain Obvious]

I don't think AIC should be considered grunge. In my latter post, I didn't specifically mean and never said that they were heavily associated with the grunge movement, maybe you just assumed, because I never viewed them as that. Having said that,  I think Alice in Chains was one of the most important bands of the ninetees (once again, not necessarily related to grunge) because it truly helped define metal music throughout the decade, which is a movement, would you not agree?

Dude, please tell me what kind of "widepsread impact Bon Jovi had on rock music and beyond it". Are you fucking joking me? And don't even think about giving me their record sales or concert numbers. I don't give a shit that someone across the world might have their poster on the wall, or the fact that Jon might have his face on the cover of some international magazines. I want to know what impact they had on the music, not the media.  If you are right about one thing, its probably about the "beyond" part because Bon Jovi probably had a greater impact on Pop music than on anything remotely rock. I am really curious as to how you're going to answer this, because I am really not interested in a quote from Beyonce.

[Tied-Up]

If we are going to consider album sales or commercial success a "widespread impact on rock music" - then we mustn't forget about the incredible inpact N'Sync, the Backstreet Boys, and Britney Spears have had on the music industry as well.   

[KeVoRkIaN]

Oh god this reminds me of SLCPunk during the US presidential election! We all know where you stand D! - No offense SLC

[D]

if i can be honest for a minute, in terms of influence on music, who would want to influence the shit thats out today?

i mean honestly


oh yeah but i do have one big thing bon jovi influenced

they influenced the entire MTV unplugged with their performance on the VMA's when they played Livin on a prayer and dead or alive with just jon and richie, two acoustic guitars

there success with Wanted Dead or alive as an acoustic driven song sparked other bands to follow suit with acoustic songs of their own
i dont remember much about the 80's but Bon Jovi opened the door for the "every rose has its thorns,heaven, some of the other acoustic ballads in the 80's

they showed that a rock band could use two acoustic guitars and let the songwriting shine through.

so yeah they influenced a lot.
also what band didnt try to copy Jon Bon Jovi's hairstyle? ok ok that has nothing to do with the actual music

Just because someone isnt famous doesnt? mean they werent influenced musically

Look at all around the world where they have played, i bet they've influenced a lot of people to pick up an instrument or to listen to other artists.

i can almost guarantee if u take some foreign countries that have just in the last 20 years or so got opened up and allowed to listen to music, i guarantee bon jovi is very high on their list.

its not about how complex something is, its how it relates to other people

i cant relate to some things, like some GNR stuff about drugs and alcohol i cant relate cause ive never danced with mr brownstone or moved to a big city or rode the nighttrain

but? a song like Everyday by Bon jovi i can relate too, a song like bounce i can relate too, cause ive faced huge tragedies and am fighting an uphill battle chasing my dreams and bon jovi songs are inspirational about not givin up, believing in yourself

that may be cheesy to some but its been a lifesaver for me

so im sorry i take it personal so much but when something has been the only thing and only inspiration to continue on with life it becomes more than music, it becomes a whole nother animal

think of a horrible time in your life and the music that got u through

thats why i will never turn my back on bon jovi,GNR,PRince and the chili peppers

without their music, i may not have came out the otherside.

so i guess thats why even though i can never change anyone's mind, i almost feel compelled to keep up the fight.

hell its the least i can do considering all theyve done for me.........

[POPmetal]

I don't think AIC should be considered grunge. In my latter post, I didn't specifically mean and never said that they were heavily associated with the grunge movement, maybe you just assumed, because I never viewed them as that. Having said that,? I think Alice in Chains was one of the most important bands of the ninetees (once again, not necessarily related to grunge) because it truly helped define metal music throughout the decade, which is a movement, would you not agree?

So when you said "AIC was heavily associated with a movement, as well as having its roots in? metal," what movement were you referring to? That sentence becomes a grammatical mess if indeed you were referring to a metal movement. Not to mention that it wouldn't fit in the context. It seems like you're changing your story once again to fit your desired argument.

Dude, please tell me what kind of "widepsread impact Bon Jovi had on rock music and beyond it". Are you fucking joking me? And don't even think about giving me their record sales or concert numbers. I don't give a shit that someone across the world might have their poster on the wall, or the fact that Jon might have his face on the cover of some international magazines. I want to know what impact they had on the music, not the media.? If you are right about one thing, its probably about the "beyond" part because Bon Jovi probably had a greater impact on Pop music than on anything remotely rock. I am really curious as to how you're going to answer this, because I am really not interested in a quote from Beyonce.

The list of bands who were inspire by BJ is quite long. There's the obvious 80s "hair bands" like Firehouse that grew out of Bon Jovi; there's a ton of these. Then there's current rock stuff including ?pop rock and punk rock bands like the Marvelous 3, SR-71, and the Goo Goo Dolls. There are numerous european metal and melodic rockers such as Nordica. Beyond rock, there's also pop artists like Pink, a number of pop song writers like Max Martin and Anreas Carlson, and Destiny's Child.

Those are just a few off the top of my head and I'm sure there are many others. Now, what has AIC's impact been?
And don't forget you're talking "impact on music as a whole." So I'd like to hear about more than the obvious bands like Godsmack.

[Hammy]

bon jovi have been touring and releasing albums pretty regulary this decade, and their concert attendance is always or very close to max capacity.

That's what they like about these college girls, they keep getting older, but the college girls stay the same age

[Captain Obvious]

So when you said "AIC was heavily associated with a movement,  as well as having its roots in  metal," what movement were you referring to? That sentence becomes a grammatical mess if indeed you were referring to a metal movement. Not to mention that it wouldn't fit in the context. It seems like you're changing your story once again to fit your desired argument.

Oh my goodness. I meant "AIC was heavily associated with a movement,  as well as having its roots in metal". As in they had an impact commerically but stayed true to their roots at the same time. This isn't about me changing my story. My story is the same, its about you being anally retentive and dissecting every sentence and analyzing it like it was a Shakespeare play.

The list of bands who were inspire by BJ is quite long. There's the obvious 80s "hair bands" like Firehouse that grew out of Bon Jovi; there's a ton of these. Then there's current rock stuff including  pop rock and punk rock bands like the Marvelous 3, SR-71, and the Goo Goo Dolls. There are numerous european metal and melodic rockers such as Nordica. Beyond rock, there's also pop artists like Pink, a number of pop song writers like Max Martin and Anreas Carlson, and Destiny's Child.

There is a difference between influencing a number of artists and helping shift the rock and metal scene towards a different side of the spectrum. If you were to take any modestly famous band, you could probably find thousands of individuals who are inspired by their music around the globe. This isn't what this is about.

if i can be honest for a minute, in terms of influence on music, who would want to influence the shit thats out today?

Well, for one, Eddie Vedder would. Because you know, Creed was the biggest band at one point.

[POPmetal]

Oh my goodness. I meant "AIC was heavily associated with a movement,? as well as having its roots in metal". As in they had an impact commerically but stayed true to their roots at the same time. This isn't about me changing my story. My story is the same, its about you being anally retentive and dissecting every sentence and analyzing it like it was a Shakespeare play.

Your claim is becoming more convoluted than a twister. But, sure, whatever you say

There is a difference between influencing a number of artists and helping shift the rock and metal scene towards a different side of the spectrum. If you were to take any modestly famous band, you could probably find thousands of individuals who are inspired by their music around the globe. This isn't what this is about.

Here you go changing your story again. No matter what evidence people throw at you about BJ's influence, you make up some lame excuse as to why it doesn't count and some other standard should be used. Before we weren't supposed to talk about their commercial success or about their longevity, now we aren't supposed to talk about the other artists they've impacted. No matter what we throw at you, it automatically becomes irrelevant according to you, simply because it goes against your point. Do you realize how pathetic and childish this is?

And if AIC was responsible for shifting rock and metal in the 90s, I'm not sure you wanna brag about it considering the sorry state that rock, and especially metal, was in during the 90s.

Finally, I dont' know why you now keep reverting to talking about AIC's impact on rock and metal, when your initial claim was that AIC had a greater impact than BJ on "music as a whole." I'm still waiting to hear about AIC's impact on music beyond rock...

[D]

So when you said "AIC was heavily associated with a movement,? as well as having its roots in? metal," what movement were you referring to? That sentence becomes a grammatical mess if indeed you were referring to a metal movement. Not to mention that it wouldn't fit in the context. It seems like you're changing your story once again to fit your desired argument.

Oh my goodness. I meant "AIC was heavily associated with a movement,? as well as having its roots in metal". As in they had an impact commerically but stayed true to their roots at the same time. This isn't about me changing my story. My story is the same, its about you being anally retentive and dissecting every sentence and analyzing it like it was a Shakespeare play.

The list of bands who were inspire by BJ is quite long. There's the obvious 80s "hair bands" like Firehouse that grew out of Bon Jovi; there's a ton of these. Then there's current rock stuff including? pop rock and punk rock bands like the Marvelous 3, SR-71, and the Goo Goo Dolls. There are numerous european metal and melodic rockers such as Nordica. Beyond rock, there's also pop artists like Pink, a number of pop song writers like Max Martin and Anreas Carlson, and Destiny's Child.

There is a difference between influencing a number of artists and helping shift the rock and metal scene towards a different side of the spectrum. If you were to take any modestly famous band, you could probably find thousands of individuals who are inspired by their music around the globe. This isn't what this is about.

if i can be honest for a minute, in terms of influence on music, who would want to influence the shit thats out today?

Well, for one, Eddie Vedder would. Because you know, Creed was the biggest band at one point.

when i used that same point as to why vedder should win the front man of the 90's everyone bashed me over it.

make up your minds what is relevant and what isnt.

what does vedder have to do with AIC's or bon jovi?

[Izzy]

 

Bon Jovi better than Alice in Chains?

Sure, whatever.

[John Daniels]

Bon Jovi better than Alice in Chains?

Sure, whatever.

same..

[BP]

Same.

I'm guessing Captain O' has been around the scene age wise. I understand every single word he says. Props to you cuzzz this thread sux? ? ?sort of silly. whats there next commercial marketing campaign?

but my final comparison comes down to .... ART

For Alice in Chains >> You had Jerry Cantrell & layne Staley scratching & crawling to write there own songs. Scratching at there roots (ie. Blues)? &? mixing & presenting & sweating with an original sound of Metal Tonal Bliss. I believe for art... you have to suffer to scrape your insides out onto the canvas. Work Hard.

Dude...? Some think Jovi & Richie wrote there hits = Bullocks ! They hired a fucking song writer with a side of cheese off the menue & his name is Desmond Child

"I got together with Jon Bon Jovi and Richie Sambora, and the first song we wrote was ?You Give Love A Bad Name,?" said Child. "I ended up writing at least 10 cuts with them, including the hits ?Livin? On A Prayer,? ?Bad Medicine? and ?Keep The Faith.?"

He also wrote "La Vida Loca" for Ricky Martin. You are singing along the lyrics of this man. Don't fool yourself.? Oh the picture is your lyric writer (that made pop star jon famous) with Ricky Martin

http://www.songwriteruniverse.com/childmartin.jpg

-BP

[POPmetal]

How predictable?!?!?? You don't have a point, so you change the tune ... again! You guys are pathetic. I was never arguing that BJ was a better band than AIC. That's a subjective personal opinion issue and it depends on a person's taste. I love both BJ and AIC's music. It happens to be the case that I like BJ a little better, but I completely understand why others would like AIC better

The issue that Captain Obvious brought up was that AIC had a greater impact on music as a whole than BJ and I have yet to see any evidence as to how AIC's impact on music as a whole was greater than BJs. That's all. It doesn't mean that one is better than the other. Do you guys see the difference?

Now, about the involvement of other writers. First of all, it's not just Desmond Child, it's also Max Martin, Andreas Carlson, Diane Warren and others. The difference between Rikki Martin and Bon Jovi is that BJ co-writes songs with other writers, while Rikki Martin has it done for him. There's huge difference! And Bon Jovi DID write many of their hits without the involvement of outside writers. But that was probably just your ignorance, so I'll let it slide.

[BP]

who said I was aguing with you?  It was my first post in the thread staying on topic a bit.  BTW don't assume what I know.....  I simply didn't feel it mattered to list other writers Jovi hired. My point is that he did, but 'I'll let that slide' o b 1 on the defensive.  & to me, that weighs into a group.

BP

[Eazy E]

Bon Jovi has great hooks and song structure, but I would never argue that their LYRICS are spectacular! ?That's not just taking Slippery into consideration, there were no spectacular lyrics on Bounce either.

Now excuse me for bringing a Canadian band that most haven't heard into this, but if you want lyrics that should ACTUALLY be defended then look no further than the Tragically Hip. ?Here are the lyrics to "38 Years Old", just picked one song off the top of my head, they definetaly have other songs with better lyrics:

Twelve men broke loose in '73
From millhaven maximum security
Twelve pictures lined up across the front page
seems the mounties had a summertime war to wage
The chief told the people they had nothing to fear
The last thing they'd wanna do is hang around here
They mostly came from towns with long French names
But one of the dozen was a hometown shame

Same pattern on the table, same clock on the wall
Been one seat empty 18 years in all
Freezing slow time away from the world
He's 38 years old, never kissed a girl
He's 38 years old, never kissed a girl

We were sitting round table, heard the telephone ring
Father said he'd tell me if he saw anything
Heard the tap on the window in the middle of the night
Held back the curtains for my older brother Mike

See my sister got raped, so a man got killed
Local boy went to prison, man's buried on the hill
Folks went back to normal when they closed the case
They still stare at their shoes when they pass our place

My mother cried "The horror has finally ceased"
He whispered "yeah, for the time being, at least"
Over his shoulder, on the squad car megaphone
Said "Let's go Michael, son, we're taking you home"

Same pattern on the table, same clock on the wall
Been one seat empty 18 years in all
Freezing slow time away from the world
He's 38 years old, never kissed a girl
He's 38 years old, never kissed a girl


And there are VERY few bands that can write lyrics that interesting and still have the song be catchy and enjoyable to listen to. ?None of Bon Jovi's "You had me at hello"s or "I'm gonna live my life everyday"'s can lyrically compare to something like that.


And D!!!!!!!!!

I am the DaveGnfnr2k of bon jovi land

That is NOT a good thing! EVER! ?

[Captain Obvious]

when i used that same point as to why vedder should win the front man of the 90's everyone bashed me over it.

make up your minds what is relevant and what isnt.

what does vedder have to do with AIC's or bon jovi?

Umm..that's exactly what I'm referring to, and I was being sarcastic, dude.  In the other thread, you said:

who was the biggest band of the late 90's early 2000's?
Creed were and who did scott rip off pretty much? eddie vedder
for fucks sake scott weiland even use to imitate eddie vedder.

and now you say:

if i can be honest for a minute, in terms of influence on music, who would want to influence the shit thats out today?

Oh my goodness. I meant "AIC was heavily associated with a movement,  as well as having its roots in metal". As in they had an impact commerically but stayed true to their roots at the same time. This isn't about me changing my story. My story is the same, its about you being anally retentive and dissecting every sentence and analyzing it like it was a Shakespeare play.

Your claim is becoming more convoluted than a twister. But, sure, whatever you say

There is a difference between influencing a number of artists and helping shift the rock and metal scene towards a different side of the spectrum. If you were to take any modestly famous band, you could probably find thousands of individuals who are inspired by their music around the globe. This isn't what this is about.

Here you go changing your story again. No matter what evidence people throw at you about BJ's influence, you make up some lame excuse as to why it doesn't count and some other standard should be used. Before we weren't supposed to talk about their commercial success or about their longevity, now we aren't supposed to talk about the other artists they've impacted. No matter what we throw at you, it automatically becomes irrelevant according to you, simply because it goes against your point. Do you realize how pathetic and childish this is?

And if AIC was responsible for shifting rock and metal in the 90s, I'm not sure you wanna brag about it considering the sorry state that rock, and especially metal, was in during the 90s.

Finally, I dont' know why you now keep reverting to talking about AIC's impact on rock and metal, when your initial claim was that AIC had a greater impact than BJ on "music as a whole." I'm still waiting to hear about AIC's impact on music beyond rock...

How am I changing my story? What I am saying now is what I said in the very beginning.  Read the sentence as a whole again, don't chop it up into small pieces. This is getting rediculous because we aren't even arguing about Bon Jovi and AIC, there is some sort of miscommunication and it's constantly ending up with me having to repeat myself.

"Having an impact on music as a whole" is influencing a shift in the music as a whole, steering it in another direction, redifining what it means to one generation, knowing that that definition will be different from the previous generation's -  rather than just influencing a handful of scattered artists. I repeated this idea again, and once again you gave me a list of a handful of artists, missing my point completely.  This is what I said in the beginning of the thread and I'm really not sure how I can express this differently.

[Tied-Up]

Oh please... what has bon jovi influenced MUSICALLY?? I mean really?? Let's be honest.?

Bon Jovi may have influenced the music industry as a whole, as far as what was being signed to recording contracts... because with the explosion of Bon Jovi came the rest of the "hair BLANDS" (not a typo) of the 80s.? This is not necessarily a good thing, in my opinion.? I mean, I could have lived my whole life without the likes of Europe and their music ever to have "graced" my eardrums.? If not for the hairband explosion, Europe would have likely never gotten signed.? But, instead, I have that stupid introduction to 'the final countdown' forever impressed in my memory.? ?

Now, for those of you who actually like Bon Jovi, good for you.? ?? Like I've said before, someone's gotta listen to them, better you than me.?

For those of us with a different (arguably better defined) taste in music, we see Bon Jovi and his influence/contribution to the music industry as nothing more than the residue that's left on a cheese sample platter ~ Something we could have just as well done without.

Lots of people wore Zubaz in the early 1990s too... they thought this was a "cool" fashion statement.? The idea really took off.? It doesn't mean it was a good idea.?

I view Bon Jovi and the influence/contribution of Bon Jovi much the same way... just because a lot of people bought into it, doesn't mean it was any good.

You can shit in a cd case, and sell it to someone, it doesn't make it anything other than what it is ... shit.

[POPmetal]

"Having an impact on music as a whole" is influencing a shift in the music as a whole, steering it in another direction, redifining what it means to one generation, knowing that that definition will be different from the previous generation's -? rather than just influencing a handful of scattered artists. I repeated this idea again, and once again you gave me a list of a handful of artists, missing my point completely.? This is what I said in the beginning of the thread and I'm really not sure how I can express this differently.

OK, even when you look at it that way, AIC's influence in the 90s was only secondary. Nirvana was the main player. AIC had lot of metal in them and they wrote and played music that actually required having talent. But in the 90s grunge prevailed and metal got its ass kicked; it even became uncool to be able to play your instruments. Had AIC been so influential, that wouldn't have happened. Fact is, unfortunately, AIC did not have nearly as much impact as the bands that championed mediocrity. It was Nirvana who steered rock in a new direction and redefined its meaning for the new generation. Had it been AIC, music wouldn't have sucked in the 90s.