Someone explain this

[Neemo]

Regarding Neemo's 3 types of GNR fans, I think there are more. I don't quite fit any of the 3. I think TSI was a real letdown, the whole Charles Manson thing was weak, and the bloated side of the later Get in the Ring Tour was a mistake. Reading my first post in this thread, you already know where I stand with Axl, Slash, and Duff. So what type of fan does that make me?

ok maybe the words "anything that a member, past or present releases is awesome" was a bit strong.  How about "anything that a member (past or present) releases must be listened to." I agree woth you buddha master, because I listened to Izzy's first ju-ju hounds cd and didn't care for it, same with duff's 'believe in me" didn't like it. however I bought them both (no d/l's back then, man I'm old) because I wanted to hear them. 'Pawnshop guitars' and 'It's five o'clock somewhere' were both great, IMO.

But I would classify you as a type 3 fan "G'n'R" 

[Neemo]

Hey neemo,? there are also people who will listen to anything by any band if good and find this current GNR the most enthralling. Me, me, me!

ppbebe, you are definately a type 3 fan as well because everything must be listened to.

personally I can't give a shit who was at fault for the messy breakup of old g'n'r I just want to hear new ,GOOD, tunes. Axl is my favorite all time singer, but man it is awesome to hear Slash play guitar again. It's too bad they can't collaborate but what can you do.

[Intercourse]

Regarding the fan thing, I am a mix of all three mentioned.

 - I personally think Axl used his force of personality to push the others out of the band because he didn't feel they could help him get where he wanted musically. This does NOT mean he's evil or dangerous. He just wanted the best for his band.

 - I though Slash was as important to the final GNR sound we got as Axl. Both men had the last word on everything. I don't blame Axl for not wanting to deal with a drug addict but at the same time I think some of Slashs woes were an outlet to combat his worries and stresses with Axls methods and mental problems. I miss them together and don't know if that will change. Their alternate style, personalities but intense and edgy friendship and 'fuck you' attitude blew me away. People say get over it but the wish always lurks.

 -  I hope both bands become massive again and realise their dreams and give us all great music.

 - I'd like to see Axl marry and have kids to be devoted to just liek Slash & Duff, he needs and deserves it.

 - I'd like to see the 5 original members make up before they die.

[Buddha_Master]

I'd like to hear Chinese Democracy...over and over again. I would like Axl to be vindicated. If its released, and it owns...he will be proven right.

[ppbebe]

ppbebe, you are definately a type 3 fan as well because everything must be listened to.

personally I can't give a shit who was at fault for the messy breakup of old g'n'r I just want to hear new

Me neither! 
and Yeah, I listen to all and guess what! I love My world n Locomotive the best from UYI2. I'm not the biggest fan of November Rain and The Blues(which sounds completed) but am into The Garden or Don?t Cry and Riyadh(needs more work) . Well,  I?m not a typical GNR fan, I guess?

Anyway I can?t understand ppl who hate any of those musicians.
You don?t have to listen to any music you don?t like so why bother?
Music is there to amuse you not to upset you.
Life is too short to spend on such a repugnance.

[Neemo]

ppbebe, you are definately a type 3 fan as well because everything must be listened to.

personally I can't give a shit who was at fault for the messy breakup of old g'n'r I just want to hear new

Me neither!?
and Yeah, I listen to all and guess what! I love My world n Locomotive the best from UYI2. I'm not the biggest fan of November Rain and The Blues(which sounds completed) but am into The Garden or Don?t Cry and Riyadh(needs more work) . Well,? I?m not a typical GNR fan, I guess?

Anyway I can?t understand ppl who hate any of those musicians.
You don?t have to listen to any music you don?t like so why bother?
Music is there to amuse you not to upset you.
Life is too short to spend on such a repugnance.

My fav's right now are Breakdown, Dust n bones, pretty tied up, 14 years but once and a while I find my self singing the lyrics to 'My World' I used to hate it, but, no I think it's pretty cool.  Looking back it was ahead of its time.

You hit it right on the head, If you don't like it don't fuckin' listen to it.  That's the thing that pisses me off most. When I saw Guns in Toronto, 2002, there was this asshole who screamed "Axl sucks", "bucket head sucks", "bring back Slash", "Guns n Roses is dead" and other shit like that all night, "I was like, fuck you man! why did you buy a $80 ticket if you don't like it? go home dickhead! but other than that asshole, that fucking show ruled. I'm gonna see them again (if they ever tour again that is). my hope is pretty slim for CD to be released any time soon and even if they do, what promoter or venue is gonna want to take a chance that Axl would just no-show and that a riot would happen? I know I wouldn't.

[Naupis]

I'd like to hear Chinese Democracy...over and over again. I would like Axl to be vindicated. If its released, and it owns...he will be proven right.

But what is your definition of vindication? I have no doubt the album will be good, but I haven't even heard it and I am sure there is not going to be a song on there that is as timeless as WTTJ, SCOM or a Paradise City type....all of which recieve tremendous airplay even still, 18 years later. WTTJ and PC in particular, which are played at some point or another during almost every sporting event played on this continent.

IMO to be vindicated, he is going to have to make a song that gets more airplay and becomes more timeless than Jungle, or have a set of songs (SCOM and NR) which places at least 2 solos in the universally accepted top 10 solos ever the way the SCOM and NR solos are. All of this is not even beginning to look at the record sales that would have to be overcome, or sold out stadium tours. The reason it would require going beyond those things to be vindicated is they are all attainable goals, as he once did have a line-up that accomplished all of those things. He has released an album that sold 15 million copies in the US alone, he has had a 2 year stadium tour. He has produced songs that are played on every rock station and sporting event in the world. If all of these things aren't accomplished in the next go around, it would have to prove that getting rid of everyone wasn't the right decision, because if they were done once, they can be done again if you produce a good enough product.

[Buddha_Master]

I think, if Chinese Democracy comes out, and it gets A's and 4 stars and all that shit, he will be vindicated. You can't help the douche reviewers that will write shit like "Is this album worth the wait? Probably not." But, there is nothing he can do about those type of comments.

Listen, using the Beatles example. Did it really matter that Rubber Soul was less successful then a Hard days Night? There wasnt a more successful single off of Rubber Soul either. But now looking back, that album was a turning point. And it is a great album.

CD doesnt have to have a WTTJ for it to be a gem.

[Naupis]

CD doesnt have to have a WTTJ for it to be a gem.

If it doesn't though isn't it selling the process short to have canned a line-up that produced historical music to bring one in that releases mearly adaquet CD's? I thought that was the whole point to evolving and bringing in all new players? If one line-up produces a song like Jungle and sells a bazillion albums and sells out stadiums for 3 years, and the other is unable to reach those heights. Wouldn't that make the project a bust in the sense that you traded away a team that wins a championship to get one that gets bounced out in the conference Finals? At least intuitively I would think to make it a success you would have to at least attain if not surpass the accomplishments of the guys you're replacing. Otherwise what was the point to making the changes if you put out a product that ends up having been inferior achievement wise to the prior one?

[Buddha_Master]

Man, I thought I explained this with my Rubber Soul example. Being an evolution and taking the next step, might produce something very special. It could certaintly produce material deeper and more emotionally layered, then anything off Appetite. The music might be very beautiful. But it may not produce an anthem that Appetite had plenty of, but does it have to. That is something you may have to ask yourself.

I agree that just being adequate won't cut it. But it may achieve something very unique then what Appetite did. The music might mean something more too then jsut having a hit anthem.

[younggunner]

I thought that was the whole point to evolving and bringing in all new players? If one line-up produces a song like Jungle and sells a bazillion albums and sells out stadiums for 3 years, and the other is unable to reach those heights. Wouldn't that make the project a bust in the sense that you traded away a team that wins a championship to get one that gets bounced out in the conference Finals?

So the whole point of evolving musically only matters if the band sells albums? GNR will not outsell old GNR. Case closed. So maybe we should chalk this new band as a failure before even hearing a note of the album.

I could care less if 10 yr old boys n girls like GNR/CD. As long as the music is better than what is out there and is on the same level as old gnr in the context of the world as it it today who gives a fuck. ILl be one happy camper.

In order for GNr to roll out of the gate quickly they need an anthem type song. Supoosedely they have a few of those in the cards. We SHall see.

At least intuitively I would think to make it a success you would have to at least attain if not surpass the accomplishments of the guys you're replacing. Otherwise what was the point to making the changes if you put out a product that ends up having been inferior achievement wise to the prior one?

Um, not really. Since you want to make it as a sports comparison...let me help you out.

Axl "cleaned out"{which he didnt but we iwll go by ur theory} the old team because they werent working together as a team anymore. One player wanted to keep the same team and formula going because it worked the other wanted to mix it up and try some different things....

He didnt "clean house" because he wanted to outdue the old as you keep saying. So your whole argument is pretty silly.

This is music not sports. ?Its not cut n dry.

If you are going to measure whether the new band is a failure purely on numbers...ill tell you write now being the prophet that you are ...you will be proven right.

Of course its natural and totally fair to compare the old and new. NO problem there. BUt it has to be done on the musical side. ANd not whether "Suckerpunched" sounds liek it could come right off of AFD....or how it compares to WTTJ...you have to take the new songs and view them in the context of the world it is today.

As long as the gnr spirit and ferocity is captured in the new album like the old band then i think its a success...musically....as for the numbers game...If GNR are not crowned king of the rock genre then ill listen to your argument. BUt as for the music world in general...its an uphill battle.....rap is in not rock...

[Naupis]

[If you are going to measure whether the new band is a failure purely on numbers...ill tell you write now being the prophet that you are ...you will be proven right. /quote]

Even if you compared on a strictly musical basis, wouldn't they have to place at least 2 songs into the greatest riffs/solos of all time category (SCOM and NR), most played stadium song of all time(Jungle), and greatest Music Video of all time(NR...well I guess second best where it always tends to end up).....to even begin the argument as to which product is better even if you don't bother looking at album sales and tour attendance?

[norway]

I think that there are 3 types of G'n'R fans,

[

lets hope it's not that bad

[younggunner]

to even begin the argument as to which product is better even if you don't bother looking at album sales and tour attendance?

because its not an even playing field 

[mikegiuliana]

Sales are very important to see if the album itself is a bomb or not because there is countless money involved..  It doesn't matter for a fan,just the record company.. ALso it matters to anyone that support this stuff where they say it could be as good or better then afd, illusions 1-2//

Being it took forever and is still taking time I would want nothing less then it to be number one and some big time success.. Success can be measured in several ways, album sales mean people outside of the old fan base are actually liking the music..

ANyways I doubt all this time and effort would be put into this project to not look for big sales and long tours.. It's a new band there's things to prove in regards to keeping the name alive and things like that..

I guess if it doesn't do the best in the world or axl screws up missing shows the new guys always have their solo gigs until the NEXT album comes around..

[norway]

..? It doesn't matter for a fan,just the record company..

yay,  if it sells well and the music is bad, it's not a success 4 me

maybe just 4 the record company and some others...

[ppbebe]

Listen, using the Beatles example. Did it really matter that Rubber Soul was less successful then a Hard days Night? There wasnt a more successful single off of Rubber Soul either. But now looking back, that album was a turning point.

And there must have been tons of old time fans who loved the pop-era Beatles and hated post-Rubber Soul Beatles.

Yesterday, Twist and Shout, Hard days Night.....

Sweet Child O?Mine, Welcome to The jungle, Paradise City......

[mikegiuliana]

..? It doesn't matter for a fan,just the record company..

yay,? if it sells well and the music is bad, it's not a success 4 me

maybe just 4 the record company and some others...

I only mentioned it because success can be measured in several ways depending on who you are (fan, geffen, promoters, etc)

If axl walks out of his house today and someone takes his picture it's a bit of success to me just to see the dude is ok.. Having the album good or bad is a success for me being a fan because of the wait, but poor sales and a possible short tour or sopmething would be devistating to the promoters n geffen, they have lots of money invested so if the album doesn't do great or the tour doesn't go well it is not only a let down to the promoters but the fans as well, it could ruin everything..

After all teh years and lineupo switches and carrying the gnr namer anything but near perfection in all aspects could be considered soemwhat of a failure.. A few million copies sold, long tour, videos, single, and things of that nature would make everything a success.. If axl released it and didn't hang around for a while it would be a let down, we aren't just waiting for a n album, we want to see the band do well..

You could be a person that couild care less what they do as long as they give out an album...


I agree though, for me as a fan if the album is good but doesn't sell well it's a bonus for me, but I do want to enjoy all the benefits as a fan that comes from a good album, especially with axl..

[Immortal-Cry]

I wanted to understand something, I see alot of the if the new albums never happen I'm still happy because I have the old stuff, and we have old albums etc., etc etc.. Yet all that anyone talks about is the new band.. 

So my thing is if you have just a handfull of shows and a few new song that aren't as good as the old then why is there mostly talk about the second version of gnr and not the one we all know and love?

I see sites devoted to new gnr and some are so anti vr, I don't understand why if you are a gnr fan that you have such a dislike towards the other members.. Nobody says you have to like vr's new album, butt o hate the old members sounds so idiotic if you love gnr..

Just help me to understand why there is so much anti old gnr and so much pro new gnr..? If everyone is like whatever with the new album and you're all guns n roses fans then what's the problem?

People say well if you aren't into cd or the new band then why do you go to gnr forums.. ? I just wonder when did gnr forums become a staple for the new guys without an album? How have they payed their dues in regards to gnr?

I see forums that get so angry if you have negative shit to say about new gnr, why does everyone defend them to the death, they have'nt even given us anything yet and the linueup is always subject to change..

The point was if so many people are going to get on people's ass for being annoyed that cd isn't out and tell them it's no big deal and enjoy the old albums, then why does the old guys get so little mentiones and why do you worship the new guys so much more?

This is just a two year observation, it's just some things I would like people to address, I was just curious to see how people felt..

I understand the band has changed, I just don't get the devotion of people from having so little being fans of a group that broke up..

I just need to understand it better, I enjoy vr alot, but it's because of seeing them, having countles interviews, having an album, videos, getting to know a band I pretty much have been listening to for years (matt scott, slash duff)..

I just can't understand the huge love for all players from other bands having such minimal material to go by and so much dislike towards the band that made gnr.. Yet people will cry their eyes out and go nuts over some shady interviews by ex members, but they will defend axl to the end and say it's ok if he releases nothing.. It's doesn't make sence..

observation changed better. cd has no ending. no risk, just fun

[norway]

If axl released it and didn't hang around for a while it would be a let down,

Yeah, they just gotta go out and say:

do you know who the fuck we are? we're gunsroses time to fuckin die