Someone explain this

[norway]

What makes them so good is the raw 'unpolished' sound, i would not want it polished and tampered with so it sounded as good as today's standards,

bridesofdestruction, vr etc has that better audio standard and still sounding raw

and it has better quality that the today ultraclear recording, and still sounds raw and real

[Tied-Up]

Basically, I don't want to steal from anything that young gunner and Buddha Master have said, because I think they managed to express things quite well.  Well said, both of you!

Essentially, what it boils down to is this:? Axl was and is the artist of Guns N Roses.? Duff & Slash were musicians who were content with being comfortable in that zone.?

An artist doesn't want contentment or comfort, they want to be challeged, they thrive on it.? Essentially, they find contentment with malcontent.

What Axl has brought together is a group of similar minded people, people who have been willing to step outside of the box and find the artist within themselves, because Slash & Duff didn't have the balls to do that.

I'm not even trying to slag on Slash & Duff... they are what they are, but that doesn't make VR better than, or even comparible to GNR (past or present) because, I'm sorry, but I haven't seen much of the artist drive in Scott either, otherwise Contraband would have been far less disappointing.? (And, Scott probably wouldn't be the lead singer of VR if he did possess that drive)?

There's nothing wrong with basic, balls to the wall rock n roll... it's great.? And I enjoy VR despite it's limitations within that category.

Axl, in contrast, has always seem to want to blur the line of limitations, and push himself and the music further... to push the envelope.? I think, sadly, this is also somewhat of the undoing... because as an artist myself, there is always a strive for perfection that is unattainable.? The image we see in our mind just will never come to fruition because in our mind it is at it's perfect state, and artists are limited by the material tools of the trade that will never achieve that ultra perfection... we may get close... but never perfect.? We never find the exact right words, the exact right colors, the exact right sounds... to express that which we strive to express exactly the way we wish to have it conveyed, because we have limitations within this imperfect world, and the only perfection that exists is within our own vision.

[jabba2]

Basically, I don't want to steal from anything that young gunner and Buddha Master have said, because I think they managed to express things quite well.? Well said, both of you!

Essentially, what it boils down to is this:? Axl was and is the artist of Guns N Roses.? Duff & Slash were musicians who were content with being comfortable in that zone.?

An artist doesn't want contentment or comfort, they want to be challeged, they thrive on it.? Essentially, they find contentment with malcontent.

What Axl has brought together is a group of similar minded people, people who have been willing to step outside of the box and find the artist within themselves, because Slash & Duff didn't have the balls to do that.

I'm not even trying to slag on Slash & Duff... they are what they are, but that doesn't make VR better than, or even comparible to GNR (past or present) because, I'm sorry, but I haven't seen much of the artist drive in Scott either, otherwise Contraband would have been far less disappointing.? (And, Scott probably wouldn't be the lead singer of VR if he did possess that drive)?

There's nothing wrong with basic, balls to the wall rock n roll... it's great.? And I enjoy VR despite it's limitations within that category.

Axl, in contrast, has always seem to want to blur the line of limitations, and push himself and the music further... to push the envelope.? I think, sadly, this is also somewhat of the undoing... because as an artist myself, there is always a strive for perfection that is unattainable.? The image we see in our mind just will never come to fruition because in our mind it is at it's perfect state, and artists are limited by the material tools of the trade that will never achieve that ultra perfection... we may get close... but never perfect.? We never find the exact right words, the exact right colors, the exact right sounds... to express that which we strive to express exactly the way we wish to have it conveyed, because we have limitations within this imperfect world, and the only perfection that exists is within our own vision.

Is Techno/Oh My God + Syrupy Ballads being artistic and pushing the music further? If anything that type of music limits artists, not challenge them. If Axl wants the 10 minute songs like Coma or Estranged i can understand his artistic image of perfection better. But If Axl's just throwing shit out like OMG, or the Blues and explaing it as something artistic he needed 10 years to finish, well i have to say those songs wont cut it.

Im actually happy to hear orchestra arrangements are brought in, because i feel songs without arrangements will all sound like techno or CD....nothing great.

[mikegiuliana]

Is Techno/Oh My God + Syrupy Ballads being artistic and pushing the music further? If anything that type of music limits artists, not challenge them. If Axl wants the 10 minute songs like Coma or Estranged i can understand his artistic image of perfection better. But If Axl's just throwing shit out like OMG, or the Blues and explaing it as something artistic he needed 10 years to finish, well i have to say those songs wont cut it.

See that's what I never get, you here about evolving and moving so far away in directions that the old guys didn't want to go, but can someone tell me what is so special about the new songs in contrast to the old ones..?

I mean if you call using synths and sound effects moving on then he's headed in the wrong direction..To me the new songs are gnr lite as far as a contrast to gnr's older music..
You can dislike the old guys or whatever because they didn't wan tto evolve as artists, but they made it clear that they just want to do rock music, axl on the other hand wants to move on, but by judging the new/old boots we have it didn't show anything but average tracks that can't hold a candle to the older stuff he was trying to advance from..

He should have stuck to the music style he did instead he can't get one album out.. Hopefully if n when teh album comes out it's much better then the few songs we've heard..

So far new gnr has been an old gnr cover band that made some average to below average tunes..

[Buddha_Master]

This is what I don't get. Man, you cannot even say something like that until we have all heard Chinese Democracy. Look man, I am a video game player. Anyone else who is too can back up what I am about to say. Shit what was I gonna say...oh yea. A demo. I play lots of them. But the one thing about them is that they are usually a very poor representative of how the final game will actually feel when playing them. Sometimes they put you in a strange place with all your abilities already aquired, and the game just isnt that much fun to play. Prince of Persia comes to mind as an example. I thought the game was so fucking lame based on that demo of it I played. But then the retail game came, and I tried it again, and totally thought it was awesome. The story leading me through the adventure was fun, as was earning the abilities and skills as the game progressed.

Anyway my point is we don't know shit about what the real sound of the new album will be. Let's have this debate you are creating for after we have heard it.

[mikegiuliana]

This is what I don't get. Man, you cannot even say something like that until we have all heard Chinese Democracy. Look man, I am a video game player. Anyone else who is too can back up what I am about to say. Shit what was I gonna say...oh yea. A demo. I play lots of them. But the one thing about them is that they are usually a very poor representative of how the final game will actually feel when playing them. Sometimes they put you in a strange place with all your abilities already aquired, and the game just isnt that much fun to play. Prince of Persia comes to mind as an example. I thought the game was so fucking lame based on that demo of it I played. But then the retail game came, and I tried it again, and totally thought it was awesome. The story leading me through the adventure was fun, as was earning the abilities and skills as the game progressed.

Anyway my point is we don't know shit about what the real sound of the new album will be. Let's have this debate you are creating for after we have heard it.

That's all good and shit, but how come we can praise the music but when it gets a bad reply from someone they get it's not out yet..? I only stated how I felt about the music I've heard so far.. Sure a demo is not the same but it's still somewhat of a preview..  You don't advertise with something just to switch teh product..

I said I want the album and want it more then most because I don't enjoy the boots, so for me I really have no new music at all.

There's people that like one ot two songs off contraband, so that's how they feel, I only said that the songs I've heard in comparison to the notion of evolving doesn't blow me away in any way.. Everyone's argument is only based on those boots, so why is my opinion less because they're demos.. I'm sure oh my god wasn't a demo, it was a piece of music that was probably somewhat of how cd would have sounded../ I'm sure the album has been changed alot since 99, but I have little doubt that that was a sample of a sound to be, not all teh songs but some..

I hope new gnr does amazing, regardless I will probably buy an extra album for the car.. I only went by the boots and that was it and by what people use to make their points of how the ex gunners didn't want to evolve.. I only said what have they evolved into based on those boots?

[ppbebe]

See that's what I never get, you here about evolving and moving so far away in directions that the old guys didn't want to go, but can someone tell me what is so special about the new songs in contrast to the old ones..?

In contrary Can you explain what so special about the old songs strictly on old live boots in contrast to the new ones?
I?m in favour of Riyadh, CD and Oh My God. I believe what I sense myself.
Talking about evolving and moving, the style doesn?t mean a shit.
Besides I guess some of what we heard were perhaps still in progress, same as Don?t Cry played in ?86. If I were there, I would have foreseen the future of the song.

Buddha_Master,
That's what I can say even before having heard the album.

[Tied-Up]

Is Techno/Oh My God + Syrupy Ballads being artistic and pushing the music further? If anything that type of music limits artists, not challenge them. If Axl wants the 10 minute songs like Coma or Estranged i can understand his artistic image of perfection better. But If Axl's just throwing shit out like OMG, or the Blues and explaing it as something artistic he needed 10 years to finish, well i have to say those songs wont cut it.

Im actually happy to hear orchestra arrangements are brought in, because i feel songs without arrangements will all sound like techno or CD....nothing great.

Yes, Oh My God (and the syrupy ballads) is being artistic, because it was something very different, something unfamiliar, and something unexpected.  Just because you didn't appreciate it for what it was doesn't mean that it's not an artistic expression.  Many people didn't appreciate Van Gogh during his time either, but that doesn't stop his paintings now from selling for  $40 million+

See that's what I never get, you here about evolving and moving so far away in directions that the old guys didn't want to go, but can someone tell me what is so special about the new songs in contrast to the old ones..?

I mean if you call using synths and sound effects moving on then he's headed in the wrong direction..To me the new songs are gnr lite as far as a contrast to gnr's older music..
You can dislike the old guys or whatever because they didn't wan tto evolve as artists, but they made it clear that they just want to do rock music, axl on the other hand wants to move on, but by judging the new/old boots we have it didn't show anything but average tracks that can't hold a candle to the older stuff he was trying to advance from..

He should have stuck to the music style he did instead he can't get one album out.. Hopefully if n when teh album comes out it's much better then the few songs we've heard..

So far new gnr has been an old gnr cover band that made some average to below average tunes..

many people thought the same thing about November Rain going in the wrong direction as well.  And I can even argue in defense of such an argument, because November Rain isn't my favorite GNR tune. 

But, that doesn't make it any less viable as an artistic expression.  Just because I may not appreciate the tools an artist uses or the direction his/her expression may take, doesn't mean that expression is any less valid.  Picasso had several different "periods" in his artistic lifetime, and some prefer the blue period over his more classicism phase.  That doesn't mean his work in his later career is any less artistic an expression.

We have only heard a handful of the "new" songs, we don't even know if any of these songs will be on the album (although there's a pretty good chance that "chinese democracy" will be on the album "chinese democracy"). 

[norway]

So far new gnr has been an old gnr cover band that made some average to below average tunes..

hmm, yes and no. I like listening 2 it, and i think they are as they are 4 a reason,

whats cool is that you hear chris, dizzy and all the members on it, and you hear some direction hints...
and we know the mainman deliver quality

Rockbands has always had limits, metallica got slammed for makin a video, gnr for november rain-
and thats stupid

I think axl found musical potential in stuff, chris, bucket, finch etc can deliver
 and he will not let himself be limited by what a bad rockerboy is supposed 2 do, and rather evolve himself

I'm intrested in what i heard so far ar least, and the potential 4 this to work 4 me too

[younggunner]

See that's what I never get, you here about evolving and moving so far away in directions that the old guys didn't want to go, but can someone tell me what is so special about the new songs in contrast to the old ones..?

Then why do many people who dislike the band and the material say..".o this shit sounds nothing like old gnr. This aint gnr, this aint rnr, etc"

something must be different.....

Are the songs we have heard earth shattering? No...are they different than old gnr...some of it yes, some of it no....

I think many miss the point about the whole evolution thing. Maybe evolution to Axl just means adding a few modern things, but keeping it gnr. Like CD for instance.

The blues can come right out of the illusions.

My point is I think Axl will definately push the envelope on a lot of the material but he will also keep it "gnr". 
Which will then spark comments liek you have made....

we dont know if the material will be earth shattering and "worth the wait" because we havnt heard the material they feel most strongly about. But to say gnr havnt evolved from thier old sound is not being fair because with the sample of songs we have there is definately progress in the sound compared to the old stuff.

[AxlsMainMan]

Is Techno/Oh My God + Syrupy Ballads being artistic and pushing the music further? If anything that type of music limits artists, not challenge them. If Axl wants the 10 minute songs like Coma or Estranged i can understand his artistic image of perfection better. But If Axl's just throwing shit out like OMG, or the Blues and explaing it as something artistic he needed 10 years to finish, well i have to say those songs wont cut it.

See that's what I never get, you here about evolving and moving so far away in directions that the old guys didn't want to go, but can someone tell me what is so special about the new songs in contrast to the old ones..?

I mean if you call using synths and sound effects moving on then he's headed in the wrong direction..To me the new songs are gnr lite as far as a contrast to gnr's older music..
You can dislike the old guys or whatever because they didn't wan tto evolve as artists, but they made it clear that they just want to do rock music, axl on the other hand wants to move on, but by judging the new/old boots we have it didn't show anything but average tracks that can't hold a candle to the older stuff he was trying to advance from..

He should have stuck to the music style he did instead he can't get one album out.. Hopefully if n when teh album comes out it's much better then the few songs we've heard..

So far new gnr has been an old gnr cover band that made some average to below average tunes..

Whats great about the new songs that have been previewed thus far is that to me at least, musically and lyrically they are like a breath of fresh air compared to all the shitty bands and songs that consume modern rock radio these days. Listening to Maddy or The Blues literally sends goosebumps down my spine, I truly see that much potential and creativity in the songs that without a doubt based on the new band's bootlegs, even if the album doesnt come out for another decade if thats what it takes, every second of the wait will be worth it. AFD or the UYI twins are instant classics, I make no mistake about that, but so many bands past and present adopt a genre formula if you will after the success of their first few cds, so much so that they are almost always afraid to advance and experiment. If the new band did no experimentation with different genres of music as it is obvious they have done so far, there is no doubt in my mind they would have failed. You cannot recreate AFD or the UYI throughout a bands life span, it grows repetitive and tiresome to use the same formula. Who knows if CD will be heavily synth orientated, even if it is I welcome such influences with open arms because I have confidence in Axl's creativity and the material he has waiting for us.

[Buddha_Master]

I feel what Axlsmainman is saying.

Lets just talk about what has been previewed. Im just going to talk about one song in particular. Madagascar. When I hear it, Im not hearing synths or sound effects. Im hearing something beautiful. The song is a trip. Axls voice is beatuiful especially when he hits the big "I" note. I find the song to be deep and rich and something much more than anything I have heard since maybe the Downward Spiral. It moves me. I feel it. Its not a ballad or anything that even remotedly, beyond Axls voice, sounds anything like GNR of old.

Maybe this song is the best example we have, whether one gets it or not with this. Let me tell you. I am personally no longer convinced CD will see the light of day. But regardless, you either feel Madagascar or you don't. Like the man above here said, it is a breath of fresh air. I feel that. If someone doesn't at the very least, find it to be interesting and intriguing, then maybe CD won't be for you. But to me, it is an evolution.

[Intercourse]

One thing about this 'moving on and evolving' thing lots of people have a go at Slash for apparently not being interested in and hating him for it.
If you read Slashs side of things he said that Axl wanted to sound like Pearl Jam, Actung Baby era U2 and Nine Inch Nails. I think a lot of people have missed the point that Slash didn't like the fact that Axl was obviously copying other (arguably lesser) bands ideas, bands who were in the limelight there and then. Imagine if GNR had come out with a grunge album that sounded like GNR pretending to be Pearl Jam, they would have been KILLED... Look at what happened to STP when they came out, they were eaten alive by the music community.
I also wished that GNR would have evolved with the old line up and I think that aspects of UYI were timeless and highly evolved from the original GNR sound. This shows a willingness on Slashs behalf to move on. Matt was also listening to lots of the same material as Axl and could have helped too. Slash is a classic player but would probably have evolved along with Axl  if Axl had been trying to evolve in the right way. Trying to sound like other bands of the day is just lame for a band of their stature and you have to make your sound your own.
I think the hatred here from the likes of Dave and others astounds me since he's probably loving the Slash experience with Axls singing everyday.
It makes no sense for me. I'm sorry for the old line up that they never saw their band go to the heights of the greats like Led Zep etc and I'm sorry for the new guys who have to fill their shoes, it cannot be easy.

[Intercourse]

Some quick points on this while I'm thinking:

 - When Slash, Duff etc said they wanted to play rock only, that doesn't mean its limiting themselves, rock has a massive scope for experimentation.

 - If the guys thought Axl was giving up the sound that made us love them just to copy other bands maybe they were uncomfortable with that not 'lazy' as Axl said. (two sides to every story).

 - When people hammer Slash for not liking NR and Estranged, just listen to his guitar work on those songs, he poured his soul into those solos. They are beautifully rendered, complex in their layed arrangementand multi-tracked (I love his 'soaring' noises in the break in Estranged) to take Axls word on this belittles truely stunning and heartfelt work by the man.

 - Axl has been 10 years in the shed probably because for the first few years he made exactly the mistake that Slash and Duff were worried about, he copied styles fashionable of the time and the songs quickly went out of fashion and he had to go back to the drawing board.

 - The five songs we have heard from the GNR camp are good but similar in impact tp Contraband, not earth movers by any stretch. The world did not go on fire when Axl played Maddy at the MTV awards, I don't think I read one excited comment about that songs in the press afterwards.

 - We will never know the truth about what happened in GNR and to take sides is silly and pointless. However, I find it hard to ignore that all former members of GNR are on one side and Axl is on the other. Plus some of the comments made by former employees of the last GNR tour on 'Behind the Music' about Slash and Duff having to 'eat shit' too much of the time saddened me. I met Axl & Slash in 1992 and they were both gentlemen.

Cheers,
Inter

[younggunner]

If you read Slashs side of things he said that Axl wanted to sound like Pearl Jam, Actung Baby era U2 and Nine Inch Nails. I think a lot of people have missed the point that Slash didn't like the fact that Axl was obviously copying other (arguably lesser) bands ideas, bands who were in the limelight there and then. Imagine if GNR had come out with a grunge album that sounded like GNR pretending to be Pearl Jam, they would have been KILLED.

How come no1 said anything when they were influenced by the rolling stones, queen and all those punk bands?

Theres a difference between copying and being influenced by something. ANd Axl wasnt going to copy those bands. He was going to take those new elements, mesh them with his old influences, and make a gnr sound out of that. Thats what the band did with AFD/UYI. The idea of Axl wanting to be the next grunge band is just a cop out. History speaks for itself.

[Neemo]

I think that there are 3 types of G'n'R fans,

Axl fans:  who are dedicated to Axl alone as the heart and soul of the original band (and the new band too for that matter)  Any slight to him is like being insulted personally.  These fans oppose anything that opposes Axl. And its Slash's fault for the breakup of G'n'R. For these fans they just want to hear Axl sing and anything he touches is great.

Slash fans: ditto but for Slash instead of Axl. and it was Axl's fault for the breakup. for these fans nothing but the orig lineup will satisfy them. Nu-G'n'R sucks and V.R. rules to them.

G'n'R fans: these people will listen to anything by any band member old or new.  They know the old G'n'R is over (but most still hope for a reunion) but anything a member (or former member) releases is awesome.

The last type is me

[Naupis]

The idea of Axl wanting to be the next grunge band is just a cop out. History speaks for itself.

He had an album that was supposedly ready for release around that time, and from the sound of OMG I am going to go out on a limb and say there were alot of tracks that sounded something like that. It would only make sense given that his new lead guitarist  at the time was cut straight from that style. I believe the luke-warm reaction to the song did send him back to the drawing board. How else does someone explain that we are this far into the process with nothing to show for it? (Aside from the 3 album stuff) I do think he had taken a step back and re-calibrated his plan of attack. It would make sense, as I think the need to go out and get Bucket at the time was that what he had recorded was obviously missing something. Otherwise there woud have been no need to get another new guitarist and spend another 4-5 years in the studio.

You call it a cop-out, but if it were a court case the preponderance of evidence would support that there has been some major re-structuring done in the direction of the band from what the album was initially supposed to sound like, to what we will most likely end up getting. (With almost all signs of songs like OMG with industrial influnce being put out to pasture.)

[Buddha_Master]

Man, I don't think that is quite accurate about your assessment for the place OMG had. I believe the song was to the new album what a song like Nice boys don't play rock and roll, was to Appetite. An early test. I don't think there was an album that was ready to roll at that time. It was the same old song and dance that we have been hearing since the late 90's with Chinese Democracy. Every year we have heard that it has been ready to be released. OMG also fit in with End of Days a lot better then almost any other song on that soundtrack, and I think that is probably why it was quickly slapped on there.

Regarding Neemo's 3 types of GNR fans, I think there are more. I don't quite fit any of the 3. I think TSI was a real letdown, the whole Charles Manson thing was weak, and the bloated side of the later Get in the Ring Tour was a mistake. Reading my first post in this thread, you already know where I stand with Axl, Slash, and Duff. So what type of fan does that make me?


Younggunner totally nailed that bullshit with Axl trying to copy other bands. Everyone is influenced by something. Axl got a surge out of NIN and wanted to run with it creatively. I am cool with that. That is some of the most creative music since the 60's. Hearing that always made me hungry to hear a deeper, layered, and more driven GNR sound.

[ppbebe]

Hey neemo,  there are also people who will listen to anything by any band if good and find this current GNR the most enthralling. Me, me, me!

And OMG is my fav, Absolutely.

How come no1 said anything when they were influenced by the rolling stones, queen and all those punk bands?

You might be wrong there. 
I think those people would have made that kinda pointless remarks on GNR of ?86 before the band made it. 
And yes. To my understanding, GNR have created their own sounds but never the musical genre/style. (not yet).

[younggunner]

He had an album that was supposedly ready for release around that time, and from the sound of OMG I am going to go out on a limb and say there were alot of tracks that sounded something like that

It is not industrial, the closest thing to that was perhaps Oh My God, but there are some songs that won't be on the album that were this way. There will be all kinds of styles, many influences as blues, mixed in the songs. -2001

as for OMG...
Once the opportunity was presented, the song was given priority in our recording process

as I think the need to go out and get Bucket at the time was that what he had recorded was obviously missing something. Otherwise there woud have been no need to get another new guitarist and spend another 4-5 years in the studio.

Or maybe he felt the band wasnt completed yet. You all fail to realize that Axl is looking to rebuild somehting not just put something together and call it GNR. And that process took place from 99 to about 2001. Thats when the members fell into place. Thats when the band was actually a band. And a band that Axl feels could represent GNr and meet its past standards...

You call it a cop-out, but if it were a court case the preponderance of evidence would support that there has been some major re-structuring done in the direction of the band from what the album was initially supposed to sound like, to what we will most likely end up getting. (With almost all signs of songs like OMG with industrial influnce being put out to pasture.)

Your wrong. You keep telling yourslef that the next gnr album was or will be OMG. That is not the case. Its oging to be a little of everything.

Influences of new genres as well as old....but in a very special gnr way......