NBA 2004/2005

[D]

he hasnt stopped, he has dunked about 10 times since makin that statement, vince carter is over rated, tracy mcgrady is grossly overrated.

i dont care how good of an individual player u are, Tmac has never won or made anyone he plays with better, look at houston this year

people keep goin on how that was a great trade when TMac isnt that much better than stevie franchise and add Cato and Cuttino Mobley in the mix and Orlando certainly got the better of that deal.

[Eazy E]

Yeah, Vince came out and said he was joking about the "not dunking" thing because he'd had enough of that reporter in particular.  Well Vince, dunking or not, you're averaging like 15 points a game.... no one gives a fuck anymore.

Everyone outside of Toronto only sees the highlight reels, I can't wait until Vince is out of here.

[Ignatius]

he hasnt stopped, he has dunked about 10 times since makin that statement, vince carter is over rated, tracy mcgrady is grossly overrated.

i dont care how good of an individual player u are, Tmac has never won or made anyone he plays with better, look at houston this year

people keep goin on how that was a great trade when TMac isnt that much better than stevie franchise and add Cato and Cuttino Mobley in the mix and Orlando certainly got the better of that deal.

Yeah but look at Francis, Novitwzky, Garnett, Webber, Stojakovic, Hill, Iverson, Houston, Malone, Payton...what do they have in common? None of them has ever won anything. They are great players, but haven't won a title.

T-Mac is one of the most talented players around. He just wasn't lucky in Orlando. Hill spent the last three years out injured, so Tracy basically didn't have any help other than Armstrong's. Let him adjust to the new team and we'll see what his partnership with Yao brings...

[D]

those players u named ran into Shaquille O Neal, all those players have won a series in the playoffs and have been to the conference finals

TMac scores but thats about it, he doesnt play defense doesnt make his teammates better


Tmac is better individually than the three guys he was traded for but he isnt better than mobley and francis combined and people who think Houston all of a sudden will contend for a championship are wrong because they gave a lot for TMac

granted they do have a great one two punch for the future, but Yao isnt playin very well this year, until Jeff Van Gundy gets out of his outdated coaching ways, Houston wont be successful.

Tmac is below his scoring average and Yao has had very few good games this season. I think Van Gundy needs to change some of his philosophies.

[Ignatius]

Also, the players I've mentioned had a team backing them up. If you replaced any of these players for T-Mac while he was in orlando, all of them would've gotten the same luck. Nothing. Orlando relied on two players, Hill and T-Mac, the rest of the team was so horrendous, any team from Europe could've beaten them.

Francis and Mobley are very alike players as well. I haven't seen Francis playing defense since he's played in the NBA. On the other hand, Cuttino, only plays D when he's facing Kobe. Francis is just another version of Iverson. A guard with a tendency to play a shooting guard position ( at least over the past 4 years). They are both great players, but both are one or two step behind the league's top.

As for T-Mac not being a team player, we'll see this year. He hasn't got any chance really to make his team better. No one could've made Orlando a better. Well, maybe MJ could've, but he is/has been the greatest.

I agree with your comments about Van Gundy though. The guy had lot's of talent in the Knicks ( Houston, Latrell, Johnson, Camby, Ewing...) but wasted trying to make the Knicks a defensive team.

[D]

yeah its more van gundy's fault in houston,Mcgrady is so handcuffed, he only had 17 points last night, his scoring average is plummeted, he is like larry brown who fucked up our olympic team by playin that slow ass basketball instead of letting them run.
 if we had ran we wouldve won the gold easily


I like TMAC *well i hate him now cause he hit the buzzer beater to beat me on NBA 2k5 tonight* but i agree with u on steve francis and Grant Hill and Dwight Howard do make a huge difference.

Look at Kobe last night, over 40pts 9 rebs 8 assists and they lost by 3 he was 11-17 fromt he floor, but he has no team, which i guess is his own fault, i think the lakers shouldve kept Gary Payton

Payton just wasntmade for the triangle offense but he is provin in Boston that he can still play, i just dont think a career backup like Chucky Atkins will be able to help his team get into the playoffs, i dont think the lakers make it this year.

[Ignatius]

Kobe is aiming at the scoring title and MVP this year. He's the lakers ofense first option ( one and only I'd say) so the whole team will do as Kobe allows. In a lot of ways, he reminds of MJ when he was younger. Huge ego, selfish, arrogant, individual player...but Mike learned to adjust a few things in order to win the title. So he did, he made the bulls a better team by delegating some of the responsability, Paxon, Kerr, Rodman, Grant, Pippen,Longley, Wennington, Harper...all have been crucial at some stage.

Bryant has won three NBA titles already, I guess he now seeks for every indivudual title he aims for. The Lakers won't even make the playoffs, but Kobe will have averaged 30 a game.

Payton is a very anarchic player. That's why he didn't really fit in with the triangle offense. The 1996 final against the Bulls though was very fun to watch though.

On the other hand, James scored his 2,000 point last night against the bullls. The guy is 19, any guess on when will he pass MJ's total scoring?

On a side note, I think this thread should be merged with the other NBA thread.

[D]

Lebron James is the greatest basketball player ever and will be better than Micheal Jordan


before people disagree listen to this

he is 19 years old and putting up unbelievable numbers, he averaged 20pts 5 boards and 5 assists a game last year and he was a rookie, he has improved his jumpshot considerably and leads a cleveland team who is pretty bad to a good record.

Lebron makes bad players average and average players good, he is magic johnson on steroids

remember the talent magic had around him his whole career, lebron has nothing around him.

i use to not like lebron but he is 19 and doing what he is doing, imagine is 5 to 6 years how unbelievable he will be cause he is still growing and improving, he is putting up primenumbers and he isnt even able to get in a bar.

what was jordan doin when he was 19? playin for North Carolina

Jordan will always be the greatest scorer but when it comes to all around basketball player, if Lebron can ever pick it up and be a dominant defender he will go down as the greatest player ever

[Ignatius]

Lebron James is the greatest basketball player ever and will be better than Micheal Jordan

Blasphemy!

If I?have a hard time trying to understand how you could say James will be a better player than Michael, It shocks me to no your statement above " James is the greatest player ever"

Ok, little by little. Let me begin by pointing out the obvious. James is not greated than MJ. I don't know if you mistyped the statement above, by saying that a sophmore 19 year old kid who hasn't done anything yet is the best player ever, is not even worth commenting.

Now, will he be the best player ever? that's a more interesting debate. The answer still obvious, No, but let me tell you why...

1.- Team success. MJ has won 6 NBA titles with the Bulls. He made the Bulls a better team. He understood scoring 45 points a game was not going to bring him much closer to a NBA ring. There's no point to argue what would have happened if Lebron had played in the bulls the or Michael in his prime with Today's Cavs, but I'm yet to see anger in James look. He is a very good, skillful player, but he doesn't have the anger, willingness and most important ( more important than any skill) the discipline to take his game to a different level.

2.- Individual Success. MJ has won 5 NBA MVP's, 6 NBA Finals MVP, 3 all star game MVP, 10 scoring titles, 2 Steals titles, 2 Slum dink titles, NBA rookie of the year, Best defensive player of the year, Highest scoring average ever in the history of the game, 10 + Times elected in the league's first team, 10 times + elected in the best defensive team...any many more achievements. There is no way any other player will ever level up with Michael in that sense. Never.

3.- Charisma. Yes Lebron James has charisma, but he is miles away from Michale even when he started to play. Back in 1985 was when we first watch our first NBA game in Spain - I knew then who Michael was because I had seen his ass and another hungry americans beating the shit out of Spain in the 84 olympics final - he outshadowed every other player. Even the likes of Bird, Johnson, Wilkins...no one had the Charisma MJ had when he first joined the league. Nike saw potential there and they will always grateful they had signed Michael, otherwise they wouldn't? have been a tenth of profitable as they are today. Everybody knew Michael worlwide from early on. Not just the fans, everybody. If you ask people outside the US who is Lebron James, a very low percent will recoginse who you are talking about. Even Kobe had more impact early on.

4.- Respect. No other player will inspire the same respect, fear, intimidation, admiration ever inthis league. Even when he came back for the third time a few years ago, younger players had marked in their own calender their games against the Wizards. Speaking of Which, the NBA ratings increased a whooping 45% because of Michael.

There are many more reasons why Lebron will never be better than Mike. These were just a few to get you going...

[D]

dude lebron is only in his 2nd year!!!!!!!!!! give that man time!

look at cleveland this year, they were the doormat in the NBA forever now they are gonna make theplayoffs

beside jake illaugauskas *sp* who does lebron have on his team?

lebron is only 19 and already does something it took jordan 5 years to do and that is makehis teammates better.

the guy scores 25 a game is grabbin over 8 board and dishing out 5 assists, and he is only 19

imagine when his jump shot *which has already improved unbelievably* gets even better, imagine when a couple more pieces arrive in Cleveland.

will he ever be better than Jordan? thats probably impossible cause like the jimi hendrix argument, elvis, beatles etc etc, when someone has been announced as the greatest ever its like its impossible for someone to replace them no matter how great they are.

why isnt Wilt Chamberlain the greatest player ever? he average 50 pts in one season , he averaged 20 rebs in one season

look at Kobe Bryant vs Lebron James, Kobe who was suppose to be the next Jordan doesnt make his teammates better, but look at Lebron name 3 other people on that team and they are a good team all because of Lebron

im not a fan of Lebron James, i dont watch him or dont particularly like him but i must give that guy some credit

if he were 25-26 and puttin those numbers up yeah it would be just a great player but he is 19 years old!!!!!!! i mean he isnt even 21 yet. he is putting up the best numbers in the NBA night after night when Jordan was still playin college ball for North Carolina


so maybe Lebron is the best he will be right now, but what if he isnt? just imagine!!!!! its scary to think if he is just gettin started how great he will be.

[Ignatius]

There are some good points in there D, but let me ask you...

Are the bulls players back then ( 15 years ago) any better than the cavs players today?

Jordan made Grant, Pippen, Hodges, Paxon, Vincent....good players. Hadn't they had played with Mike, they would have never reached the level they did with mike.

As for the cavs this year, ilgauskas and gooden and the only ones I could mention. Not much individual talent, but then again, the eastern conference is a piece of cake compared to what it used to be 15 years go? Remember the central division with the pistons, hawks, the cavs, the bulls...shit, I remember in 88 the bulls had a team record of 50-32 and the were 5th in the central division!!

Yeah I agree james is only 19. At 19 MJ was giving NC the NCAA title scoring the winning bucket with 18 seconds to go. Not bad for a 19 year old kid. I would like to see how  James would react to a similar situation....

Look at Iverson in his first year, he averaged 25 pts and dished 7 or 8 assits per game. Look at T-mac, he's always averaged 25 + pts, 6 assit and 6 boards since he's joined the NBA. Look at Garnett's numbers as well...They do have great numbers, but just because James is an all around player, doesn't mean he'll be the best.

As for the best player ofd all time, I think mike has the honour. Voted by specialists and even peers. He was eeven voted the best sportsman of all time by ESPN 4 years ago. Ahead of Al?.

James will be a hell of a player, but our generation won't see a better player than Mike.

[D]

yeah absolutely but i do think lebron will be remembered as the best player from this era over duncan,garnett,kobe

im glad u brought up allen iverson, i sorta like iverson but damn is he overrated.

if u have ever looked at his stat line he shoots damn near 11-28 every game, i mean if i shot that in my adult basketball league id be kicked off the team.

the biggest point u made about jordan was field goal percentage, i mean shooting over 50 percent is phenomenal, especially for a guard, kobe this year is averaging close to 30pts a game but is only shooting 40 percent from the floor.

i do have one argument though that i dont know if it can be argued against or not

the year after jordan retired the bulls still made the eastern conference finals losing to the knicks so it isnt like they plummeted to a lottery team. so jordan is the greatest but when it comes to best all around i think that is very much open for debate.

[Ignatius]

Yeah and they lost 4-3 but they had become better players thanx to Jordan. My point is, Jordan took them to the next level and when he first retired, his teammates had even a more stronger reason to prove people they could win games without MJ. It was a team with three rings and plenty of experience, factor which determines your team success in playoff mode.

The following year, MJ was back but they lost in the eastern semis against the magic. Why? Mike was erratic and out of shape. Next year though, Mike had 5 long pre-seasson months to prove everybody wrong yet again and helped the bulls to an outstanding 72-10 and easy ring title.

Yeah, Iverson doesn't have a good field goal %. Actually, who in the nba playing as a guard or shooting guard has an field goal % over 50? No one, not even James, Mike did for 10 seasons.

How' bout them sonics? kicking ass uh?

[D]

Milwaukee trading Ray Allen could go down as one of the single worst trades this side of charlotte trading kobe bryant for vlade divac


I miss Steve Nash being on Dallas, i love Steve Nash and Dallas cant take care of the ball and their offense is nowhere as good without him.

Look at PHoenix, how bout Phoenix and Seattle this year both are pleasantly suprising, i love phoenix and i think they have a good thing goin, who knew adding steve nash and quentin richardson would make such a difference but its made phoenix amazing.

Still never has and never will be anything like watching the Bulls with Jordan,Pippen and my fav player of all time Dennis Rodman. every game i was glued to the tv, where was nba season pass back then!!!!!

[Eazy E]

Bah, every promising new player that comes along is going to be the "next Michael Jordan".

One thing I don't think you guys mentioned was that they get force-fed that bullshit the second they step foot on an NBA court.  Last year all I heard was how "Lebron is going to be the next Michael!"... How is the player supposed to react to that?  Those are some tough shoes to fill.

I don't know if anyone will be able to top Michael... For fuck's sake he almost took those shitty ass Wizards to the playoffs!

[D]

the cleveland cavaliers suck, Lebron James has led them to a great record and they are a respectable team, Lebron wont be the next micheal, he is like Magic Johnson on steroids

how can anyone undersell Lebron James? the kid is 19 years old and his numbers are right with the best players in the league

did i mention he is a 19 year old?

like i said if he were 24 or 25 it wouldnt be a big deal but he is 19 years old

and no garnett, or kobe or mcgrady or anyone did what lebron is doin at 19 years old

mcgrady led the league in scoring last year and had a team about as good as what lebron has now *he had drew gooden, lebron has gooden this year*

orlando won 19 games or so, cleveland are gonna be a playoff team. Lebron was also easily the best player on the floor during the olympics

i remember reading that when he was on the floor the US were like a plus 8 but when he was on the bench or played less than 20 minutes they lost every single game but when he played over 20 they won every game

coincidence?

[Ignatius]

i remember reading that when he was on the floor the US were like a plus 8 but when he was on the bench or played less than 20 minutes they lost every single game but when he played over 20 they won every game

coincidence?

He was the only one who cared really. Look at the kid, he is 19 and he is playing for his country in the most prestigious world-wide basketball competition. The guy really gave everything he got. The other players don't care unless there's big money behind. Iverson, Duncan, Marbury...they looked like they were on summer camp. It was pathetic.

The NBA has become like soccer in Europe. It's a business, none of the players are for the beauty of the game. It is indeed a job, but players are merely mercenaries these days.

On a side note, USA played their best game in the olympics against Spain. We lost just by five. Had the US played as well as they played against Spain, they would've wonevery single game by 15.

[D]

did u see the show Dirk Nowitzki and Tracy Mcgrady put on tonight?

un fuckin believable, Dirk scored 53 pts and Mcgrady at 48 as Dallas squeaked by in Overtime.

watchin that game made me really miss Steve Nash, Jason Terry and Devan Harris just dont get it done. Jerry Stackhouse, man he's ok and everything but id rather kept antawn jamison, he is averaging 24 pts and 9 rebs this year.

but oh well sometimes less is more and Dallas proved it tonight letting Dirk carry the show.

[Ignatius]

I didn't watch the game but saw a few highlights and recap on nba.com T-Mac was 19-36 from the floor and Dirk 15-32 & 21-22 from the foul line. Amazing! Hopefully the TV channel that covers the NBA here will rerun the game this weekend.

Jamison is playing for the Wizards now right? those are pretty good numbers. I think Washington has ended up better after the trade. I was never a fan of Stackhouse. When Mike signed him for the Wiz, he averaged 22 a game but it looked like he wasn't "really" there. I mean, he did his job, but I didn't see him as involved as he should've been considering he came from NC as well and he was playing with the best player ever.

[D]

i dont like jerry stackhouse, good individual numbers over his career but never a winner, never a guy that helps his teammates or does anything but score.

i love Dirk Nowitzki he is my favorite player by the way and watching him play just gives me a rush, i think dallas shouldve kept jamison cause essentially they got devin harris and stackhouse for him

i wish Don Nelson would abandon having a sixth man cause stackhouse isnt suited for that role at all.


Washington have a good record this year, they beat the hawks by 24 pts tonight, i think they will make the playoffs.

i think there are players in the NBA who are just losers, good players but losers and when they are added to a team it hurts the team significantly

look at the Detroit Pistons, they added two "losers" as i like to call them in Derrick Coleman and Antonio Mcdyess, the pistons just dont seem to have "it" this season, sure i cant blame those two players but the pistons were damn near unbeatable last year, they lose Okur to Utah was it but they dont seem as great this year

maybe they are just satisfied and unmotivated after their championship and are waiting for the playoffs, but to me mcdyess and coleman just dont fit on that team.