Chinese Democracy will be bigger than Appetite and lead to a music revolution

[Guns N RockMusic]

Allot of the gunners on this board have had some doubts about the fact that 8 songs on CD may incorporate orchestral arrangements.  It's often said that Axl has tried to be a step or two ahead of the music industry, trying to make his music relative to the time.  Back in 2001, a friend of mine told me that Axl had said at one point that the world isn't ready for Chinese Democracy, trying to defend its delayed release.  I couldn't find a quote to support this (maybe some of you can) but if the recent information about composers involvement is true, this is definitely the case.  In past years, you've seen major rock bands like Kiss and Metallica try to incorporate classical music into their own.  They've done so with mild success and I personally enjoy each of those respective albums. 
Earlier this week, someone posted an interview from Matt Sorum in 1996 where he was quoted as saying he questioned the value of November Rain when he first heard it, but after its success he learned and respected that Axl knew what he was doing and had a vision of the future of music.  While not trying to be a music snob, I think it's fair to say that both Rock and Classical musician?s music are generally considered to be more valuable and meaningful.  This isn't to say that punk, rap, country or other genres are lacking, just that as an overall genre, they lack the complexity that successful rock bands possess.  Each genre has its fair share of shit bands that are aimed at commercial success and we can all agree that rock has just as many if not more than the other styles of music.
I truly believe that it is Axl's goal to incorporate the style and depth of classical music to the methods and brilliance that is Guns N' Roses.  Velvet Revolver is a great band and I have nothing but respect and admiration for Slash and Duff, but Contraband isn't going to change the music world.  Here lies the problem and reason why the original Gunners broke up.  We all know that they saw the band going in a different direction and their egos (rightfully so I think) couldn't work past this. So they moved on to fulfill their own aims and desires.  Tommy made a statement a month or so ago that Axl takes himself and his music way too seriously and has to be on the top of the music world; he can't separate the music from himself.  Here lies (in my opinion) the genius of Axl, his music is him, and it is his life.  The two are synonymous.  I truly believe that when Chinese Democracy comes out, it's going to change everything much like AFD did in 88 and similarly to how Nirvana kind of led the move away from 80s metal.  Had Guns been able to hold together and trust the direction of Axl (after all it was his judgment and direction that made UYI such a hit, he had more influence on those records than any other member) than maybe Axl could have accomplished Chinese Democracy sooner.  Axl has to be a success, he's not going to release an album just for the two or three million of us who would appreciate it, it has to be epic and world dominating like all their albums have been. 
I want Chinese Democracy as much as anyone else, but the world has to be ready for it before he can put it out there.  It's been said before, but I think that's what the 2002 tour was all about; Axl testing the waters to see if the world was finally ready.  I really believe and allot of sources are pointing to a release of CD in the next 6 months.  When Chinese Democracy finally comes, I think we'll all be grateful that Axl waited the extra few years to assure its success.  Axl wants Chinese Democracy to be the biggest GNR album yet and I don't think he's going to stop until he's sure he's completed that goal.  When it does come out, I truly believe that a new birth and direction to rock and music will be set.
If he does accomplish this goal, then and only then can the complex egos of the original members be out aside and then maybe they can try to work out their problems.  While I doubt this will happen because each of their egos is extraordinarily strong, Chinese Democracy's success is the only thing that can re-unite them.

Your thoughts and opinions are welcome.

[ppbebe]

two questions?

1)Why the hell he should reunite with ex-members when the current members make it with their blood n guts? Who are aiming for the same goal with him ("and us" shall I say)?
Why VR should disband? They are not that half-assed, are they.

2)Where did Tommy state that?

Tommy made a statement a month or so ago that Axl takes himself and his music way too seriously and has to be on the top of the music world; he can't separate the music from himself.

Otherwise your post sounds reasonable to me.

[Falcon]

It's often said that Axl has tried to be a step or two ahead of the music industry, trying to make his music relative to the time.?

Where has that been said?

[Guns N RockMusic]

I wasn't stating that Axl should aim for the goal of reuniting with the old gunners. ?I agree, it's the new ones that have been there and busted their balls to make Chinese Democracy possible. ?I just understand the appreciation alot of people have for the original Guns and the desire to see them brought back together. ?I was stating that I think that only Chinese Democracy's success could make that reunion possible.

The quote I was refering to regarding Tommy :

"Wow. I would say his strengths are definitely his heart and his loyalties. He's incredibly loyal and totally has your back if you're straight with him and are loyal back. Which is why him and I have gotten along so well. I'm the same sort of person. I don't fuck around or waste my time with people who waste my time, and I don't really take up people's time if they don't want it. I would say those are his strengths. Other than that, he's a fucking awesome singer and an amazing songwriter. The weaknesses part? Maybe he still thinks too much of what people are expecting of him. Maybe he could try just fucking exist, and not worry about the way people want him to be? Maybe a little bit of that? Might be hard for him, because he's got a lot riding on it. I've got a lot riding on it, but he's obviously got way more (laughs). What I see with the Guns N' Roses thing... you know, I've hung out with him so much to know that it's hard to be him, just because people are rabid. They get pretty weirded out. He's got some crazy fans, and people that have been there for a long time. And I think if he could just exist, if he could get up in the day and go cruise around like I cruise around and see the world in a non-stressful environment like that (laughs), it might do some good for his fuckin'... his self. He's a huge fucking rock star, man. He can barely go down the street without someone fuckin' throwing some curveball at him. It's a bummer"

?taken from http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/news/shownews.php?newsid=1153

Granted I did paraphrase what he said, but I think that my interpretation agrees with what Tommy said.

[Pandora]

The quote I was refering to regarding Tommy :

"Wow. I would say his strengths are definitely his heart and his loyalties. He's incredibly loyal and totally has your back if you're straight with him and are loyal back. Which is why him and I have gotten along so well. I'm the same sort of person. I don't fuck around or waste my time with people who waste my time, and I don't really take up people's time if they don't want it. I would say those are his strengths. Other than that, he's a fucking awesome singer and an amazing songwriter. The weaknesses part? Maybe he still thinks too much of what people are expecting of him. Maybe he could try just fucking exist, and not worry about the way people want him to be? Maybe a little bit of that? Might be hard for him, because he's got a lot riding on it. I've got a lot riding on it, but he's obviously got way more (laughs). What I see with the Guns N' Roses thing... you know, I've hung out with him so much to know that it's hard to be him, just because people are rabid. They get pretty weirded out. He's got some crazy fans, and people that have been there for a long time. And I think if he could just exist, if he could get up in the day and go cruise around like I cruise around and see the world in a non-stressful environment like that (laughs), it might do some good for his fuckin'... his self. He's a huge fucking rock star, man. He can barely go down the street without someone fuckin' throwing some curveball at him. It's a bummer"

  taken from http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/news/shownews.php?newsid=1153

Granted I did paraphrase what he said, but I think that my interpretation agrees with what Tommy said.

I don't see it that way. Nowhere does he say anything remotely resembling "Axl wants to be on top of the world".  And when people say you take yourself too seriously, it's usually not too positive. No offense

[Vicious Wishes]

All in all I'd say you're probably correct. At least I hope so. I'm not quite as optimistic as you, though. Good post, anyway.

[Guns N RockMusic]

I agree, I did use a poor choice of words, but I didn't have the qupte handy when I wrote the original post. ?What I infered from Tommy's quote was that he was saying it's a shame Axl can't lighten up and have a good time because he kind of has the weight of the world on his shoulders. ?Tommy definitely didn't mean this in a negative way towards Axl, and my post implied that it did (although that wasn't my intent). ?Hopefully this clears up the misunderstanding and I am forgiven. ?

[Dot]

I think you wanted to post this in the "Jokes" section.

[ppbebe]

Yep.? It doesn?t necessary mean he wants GNR to be on the top of the music world commercially. Tommy also said music for money is not his (Tommy?s) thing or something along those lines. I think there Tommy?s just saying that Axl secretly cares about fans a lot. He wants his music to make us happy..

Back in 2001, a friend of mine told me that Axl had said at one point that the world isn't ready for Chinese Democracy, trying to defend its delayed release.

Also your friend might have mistaken his words. I think He said most of GNR fans weren?t ready.

[Walapino]

loooooooooooooooool

Axl wont get wolrd domination.... In my opinion it could only happen if we where talking about the original line-up cuz there is still hunger for that but Axl's current band can make a great CD but wont dominate... in any case the longer it takes the worst it is.

[erose]

great post, i think that was very well written and i agree on most, but i didn't quite get why the world would be ready for it now rather than two years ago....

[Eva GnRAxlRosette]

i liked your post
thanks for sharing your thoughts

I am confident that GN'R will deliver a quality CD with a variety of musical 'slants'

I remember in one of the Makin' F'n Videos Axl spoke about how although he would have liked to have an orchestra at his disposal for November Rain that it was not financially feasible

It's great that Axl apparently now has taken advantage of the opportunity to do so
Axl is extremely talented and I'm really looking forward to hearing what is going to be on this CD - particularly in how the orchestral arrangements are infused with this talented band's instrumentals.  I'm also thinking "fortus cello solo" 

[Mattman]

Alright. ?If I understand Guns N' RockMusic correctly, he's suggesting that the orchestral arrangements will dominate the final recording of Chinese Democracy. ?After all, we've learned of having an orchestra on 8 songs so far. ?One worrying aspect of that possibility is that it means Axl has gone back and re-recorded a lot of his songs to give them different arrangements. ?Before it was assumed that a lot of the album would be grungey and industrial-influenced - if Axl was trying to keep up with current trends, it's ironic that those trends themselves are now out-of-date. ?But if there's orchestral arrangements, perhaps Axl has decided that the industrial stuff IS out of date and he's trying to give the songs a new direction. ?Which would mean even longer delays and a morass of ?unreleased original Chinese Democracy cuts. ?Dammit, why can't this guy just release his stupid record?!

The other idea put forward in the first post was that the album would explode and revolutionize music. ?Following your suggestion that Chinese Democracy will use orchestras a lot, this would imply a rebirth of classically-influenced rock. ?To be sure, the 70s did include a time where classical-based rock became popular with acts like ELO and progressive rock bands. ?But ELO aside, these bands tended to rely on traditional rock instrumentation, albeit with complex musical structures. ?If Axl initiates a wave of symphony-based rock, this would be something new, no doubt. ?But it would also be impractical. ?GN'R would have to use backing tracks or tour with a full orchestra to mimic the album's sound. ?And while that would be quite the innovation - Guns N' Roses as symphonic experience - it's not exactly practical for young bands who wish to follow its sound. ?How many bar bands can use an orchestra in their songs? ?Any said musical revolution involving symphony orchestras would be restricted to already-established bands. ?Therefore, even if influential, it wouldn't be so much a musical revolution as a musical fad among already established bands. ?"Man, Axl's using a symphony. ?We should use that in our next record!"

One interesting note: When he was younger, Axl was a huge ELO fan. ?Perhaps that has something to do with it?

[HoldenCaulfield]

While I pretty much agree, I don't think the old band will or even should reunite. But I agree that the album will be bigger than life. Axl is a man on a mission, if you will. There have been more people to work on this album than any other album in history, I would imagine, from producers to musicians to editers, etc. There is something more behind this thing just putting out a great rock album. The more I think about it, and the people involved, and the attention put in it, I believe Axl wants to sort of create his own genre. What all that encompasses, I don't know, but I'd say a mixture of classic rock, industrial, piano rock, and classical instrumentation. He wants to do to today's world what grunge did to him and his peers. It's definitely something to be excited about, and if anyone can do it, it's Axl...

[Will]

He wants to do to today's world what grunge did to him and his peers.

Wow, I like how you said it. I never thought of it this way, but it kinda makes sense. Great way to put it.

[Guns N RockMusic]

He wants to do to today's world what grunge did to him and his peers.

This is the exact point I was trying to get across in my original post.? I don't think the recent news of composers crediting work on Chinese Democracy means that this will delay Chinese Democracy at all.? We have no information (at least that I read) that specifies exactly when the composers worked with Guns.? I'm sure Axl has had this idea in his head for quite some time now, and has been working over the years towards this end.? The past ten years have been a testing ground for experimentation, trying to get the music to where Axl wants it to be.? When Industrial first hit the scene and Axl wrote "My World" the concept of Industrial music was still in its infancy.? Obviously Axl had an interest in it and coordinated efforts with musicians in this genre to learn and better understand it.? Hell, Axl obviously has interest in rap and reggae as well, as is shown in the live versions of Rocket Queen and Knockin' On Heavens Door.? I think he dabbling in these different genres is quite genious.? He is literally going through all of his inspiration with a fine tooth comb trying to get it just right.

The fact that so many members have come and gone over the past 10 years shows that he was constantly working with different artist trying to find the right people to make the puzzle fit; constantly trying to make the perfect album that would set the industry on fire.? I don't believe monetary gain had anything to with this aim.? "Estranged" and "November Rain" are entirely Axl; him bearing his soul to us.? I read where he said that he considers these two songs his gifts to the world.? I know that Axl cares about his fans, but no artist creates a record just for the fans (other than those intersted soley in fiscal gain).?

I'm not saying that Axl is solely aiming for a hybrid between classical music and rock, but he definitely realizes that utilizing them both adds a whole new dimension to his music.? Look at their cover of "Live and let die."? Axl couldn't write Chinese Democracy before he was sure he had the right formula and I believe his is at that point.? Although it sucks, it is a fact that Axl is responsible to Geffen records and had he turned over a completed Chinese Democracy in 2000, Geffen would not let him keep it on the shelf untill he deemed it ready.? The 2002 tour served not only as chance for the new Gunners to get out on stage, but as I stated earlier, as a chance to uncase some of his new songs to the world and get a feel; test the waters if you will.? I believe in this aspect it was a success which allowed for him to finally begin to put the finishing touches on the album.?

This record will be nothing short of experimental, none of us will have heard anything like it before.? ?Buckethead is known as an experimental artist, which is exactly why Axl incorporated him into the band.? I don't think the Buckethead agreed with the direction of the album and left; the exact same reasons slighted by Slash and Duff.? This doesn't make them assholes, no musician can play or be part of music they don't believe in.? However, I believe that when Chinese Democracy is released it will change their opinions.?

Chinese Democracy will be something entirely new, and no, your average bar band won't be able to emulate it because they lack the ability to provide a symphony while they play.? But this Guns N' Roses isn't about bar music, this isn't AFD.? Chinese Democracy is about Axl bearing his soul to us.? And something as challenging and honest as that is going to take time as well as emotional strain on him.? I reac where he said everytime he performed Estranged or November Rain it brought back emotions and feelings he didn't necessarily want, but he needed them to deliver the songs the way they were written and meant to be delivered.

I know I'm showing alot of optimism and putting alot of hope into Chinese Democracy.? But to all those who doubt the greatness of this album, I challenge you to name me one album released thus far where he failed to give us anything but excellence.? Chinese Democracy will come, but something as powerful and important as I believe it will be isn't made in one night or even a few months.? The fact that it has taken this long leads me to believe that Chinese Democracy will surpass all of our expectations and will quite possibly be the greatest album ever released.

[dave-gnfnr2k]

I think that Chinese Democracy, much like Sgt. Peppers did back in the 60?s, is going to surprise the music world.  Just reading what Dizzy, Axl, Tommy and the other people from Paul Buckmaster to Marco Beltrami have said about this album, it is going to be very special. 
With Sgt. Peppers, the Beatles turned a lot of heads because that album was a huge step in that bands progression, and a huge departure from the Beatles old style.   Sgt. Peppers was nothing like the Beatles did before it, and Chinese Democracy is going to be like nothing we have heard before from Guns n? Roses. 
Tommy calls the new songs ?earth shattering? and Dizzy has said the songs will exceed our expectations.  Those statements make me wonder how amazing this album could very well be.  Brian May and Tommy have both talked about how outrageous/amazing Axl's voice is on the album.   Tommy also alluded that the rockers on CD will be like old gnr,  while Zakk Wylde said the songs he heard from CD sounded like AFD on steroids.
Axl?s lyrics are said to have deeper meaning than on past albums, and we know there is a song about John Lennon, a song about Axl?s childhood abuse, and I am sure ones about the old band and  the break up with Steph Seymour.  This album will also have some political flavor with Chinese Democracy and Oklahoma (if that song makes the album).
I believe Chinese Democracy is going to showcase the new bands diversity and could still be talked about years from now much like AFD is still proclaimed as being just as fresh today as it was 15 years ago.  CD is said to be a melting pot album by Axl and I think you will be able to tell what each members input was to each song.  I think each song will have each member?s trademark, something they can all be proud of.
I am not saying this album will be the best album ever, but I believe it?s going to something that will inspire discussion for years to come.  and not only will it serve to cement Axl's legendary status as the ultimate rock star, it will preserve the dignity of the guns n roses name in the annals of rock history

[younggunner]

This is the exact point I was trying to get across in my original post.  I don't think the recent news of composers crediting work on Chinese Democracy means that this will delay Chinese Democracy at all.  We have no information (at least that I read) that specifies exactly when the composers worked with Guns.  I'm sure Axl has had this idea in his head for quite some time now, and has been working over the years towards this end.  The past ten years have been a testing ground for experimentation, trying to get the music to where Axl wants it to be.  When Industrial first hit the scene and Axl wrote "My World" the concept of Industrial music was still in its infancy.  Obviously Axl had an interest in it and coordinated efforts with musicians in this genre to learn and better understand it.  Hell, Axl obviously has interest in rap and reggae as well, as is shown in the live versions of Rocket Queen and Knockin' On Heavens Door.  I think he dabbling in these different genres is quite genious.  He is literally going through all of his inspiration with a fine tooth comb trying to get it just right.

The fact that so many members have come and gone over the past 10 years shows that he was constantly working with different artist trying to find the right people to make the puzzle fit; constantly trying to make the perfect album that would set the industry on fire.  I don't believe monetary gain had anything to with this aim.  "Estranged" and "November Rain" are entirely Axl; him bearing his soul to us.  I read where he said that he considers these two songs his gifts to the world.  I know that Axl cares about his fans, but no artist creates a record just for the fans (other than those intersted soley in fiscal gain). 

I'm not saying that Axl is solely aiming for a hybrid between classical music and rock, but he definitely realizes that utilizing them both adds a whole new dimension to his music.  Look at their cover of "Live and let die."  Axl couldn't write Chinese Democracy before he was sure he had the right formula and I believe his is at that point.  Although it sucks, it is a fact that Axl is responsible to Geffen records and had he turned over a completed Chinese Democracy in 2000, Geffen would not let him keep it on the shelf untill he deemed it ready.  The 2002 tour served not only as chance for the new Gunners to get out on stage, but as I stated earlier, as a chance to uncase some of his new songs to the world and get a feel; test the waters if you will.  I believe in this aspect it was a success which allowed for him to finally begin to put the finishing touches on the album. 

This record will be nothing short of experimental, none of us will have heard anything like it before.   Buckethead is known as an experimental artist, which is exactly why Axl incorporated him into the band.  I don't think the Buckethead agreed with the direction of the album and left; the exact same reasons slighted by Slash and Duff.  This doesn't make them assholes, no musician can play or be part of music they don't believe in.  However, I believe that when Chinese Democracy is released it will change their opinions. 

Chinese Democracy will be something entirely new, and no, your average bar band won't be able to emulate it because they lack the ability to provide a symphony while they play.  But this Guns N' Roses isn't about bar music, this isn't AFD.  Chinese Democracy is about Axl bearing his soul to us.  And something as challenging and honest as that is going to take time as well as emotional strain on him.  I reac where he said everytime he performed Estranged or November Rain it brought back emotions and feelings he didn't necessarily want, but he needed them to deliver the songs the way they were written and meant to be delivered.

I know I'm showing alot of optimism and putting alot of hope into Chinese Democracy.  But to all those who doubt the greatness of this album, I challenge you to name me one album released thus far where he failed to give us anything but excellence.  Chinese Democracy will come, but something as powerful and important as I believe it will be isn't made in one night or even a few months.  The fact that it has taken this long leads me to believe that Chinese Democracy will surpass all of our expectations and will quite possibly be the greatest album ever released.

great post

[Booker Floyd]

To the thread title, Ill saimply say no, and refer to common sense as my reasoning.

[norway]

They most likely be in the top along with all the other artist, as before

the second album is gonna be more experimentin according to axl, as cd will take us more gradually on the journey

things may have changed though