duff claims VR is more talented than gnr

[dave-gnfnr2k]

So in his buckethead fax(and committing to Rio and not showing up is a lie, regardless of circumstance...he knew Bucket was out of the band and should have done something about it. There has to be some accountability at the head of an organization) when he says we'd hear something in a couple of months thats not a lie....just a change in plans? Or how about we play on the semantics of it and you defend that there is no definition to how many a couple is. Or how about telling the fans at the end of a concert see you all next summer....and nothing ever happens? That is just a change in plans too isn't it? Or saying you are going to play a concert in Vancouver to start your tour....and not showing up? That was just a change in plans too wasn't it? Same thing as in Philly...when you tell the fans you'll be there and don't come....thats not a lie....its a change in plans isn't it. Or in your fax when you tell everyone Slash is gone and that we will see a new album the next year? The fact it doesn't happen doesn't constitute a mistruth because its in the future right?

Oh so if a show gets cancelled then its a lie? I dont think so.

And again, let me say this again since some of? you dont know what a lie is. Maybe this is just not getting through to you, its really a simple concept.

Like I said before you cant lie about the future only about the past, about something that has already happened.?
Why cant? you understand that?? ?Saying you plan to do something and then it not happening is not a lie.

VRs album got delayed so was it a lie when it got pushed back because it did not come out on the orginal date it was intened?

Slash is trying to change history by changing the facts of what really happened that is a lie.

If you can show me some statements that contradict what axl has said in the past then you can say he is lying but no one has done that yet, you can just give me statements were axl said he plans to put out CD or play a show then he cant make it or it gets cancelled.. That is not a lie.

VR had to cancel a show, so are they all liars because they didnt play that show?

[jarmo]

Or saying you are going to play a concert in Vancouver to start your tour....and not showing up? That was just a change in plans too wasn't it? Same thing as in Philly...when you tell the fans you'll be there and don't come....thats not a lie....its a change in plans isn't it.

Great, a cancellation is now considered lying. 

Please remember that next time somebody tells you "sorry, I can't make it", call them a liar.

You just called most artists liars with your statement. 



/jarmo

[Naupis]

That was my point though....that he lies every bit as much as the next guy. Certain people like to only look at certain situations as lying as long as its beneficial to the angle they're going for.

[dave-gnfnr2k]

That was my point though....that he lies every bit as much as the next guy. Certain people like to only look at certain situations as lying as long as its beneficial to the angle they're going for.

Like I said, all you have to do is quote axl where he has contradicted himself from something that happened in the past.
Something where in one interview he gives one version of the story and then in another he gives a different version of what happened. Since none of you can seem to do that, how  can you claim axl has lied about anything esp that has to do with the old band?

[Dizzy]

And Dizzy my statement about Bach is true, I said that if he was on the album it would not have done well because people would have viewed the band as a 80s retread band, I have always said that and I was one of the first people to suggest they should look at Scott when a lot of people on this board were hard for Bach.

Umm no,? You said, AND I QUOTE.....

"Bach would've made the album SUCK"? You didn't merely say "it wouldn't have done well", you said Bach would've made the album SUCK.

That was your fucking statement.? Then you turned around and said you didn't say that.? So I guess that makes you a lying son of a bitch, because you contradicted yourself.

Dont put words in my mouth or try to because you are not smart enough to do so.

Coming from someone who types as shitty as you do, I'll take that as a compliment.? You are the LAST person who should ever insult someone else's intelligence.? I'd be surprised if your IQ was higher than your shoe size.

Not that it matters, because I didn't put words in your mouth.? I quoted you exactly on the Seb Bach issue.? Look through your own damn posts and you'll find your glaring contradiction.? You're so damn wishy-washy you can't even remember what you say from one post to the next.? This thread is a fine example.? You said you had NEVER heard Slash say Axl wouldn't work on their songs, and you demanded a quote stating otherwise.? I posted one, so you just made a feeble attempt to cover your ass by changing the fucking question.? In the process, you start yapping with your stupid "Slash is a liar" bullshit to distract from the fact that you can't keep your own head straight about the questions that you ask.

That is 100% true, they quit guns n roses yet still milk the name for everything its worth.

That proves your level of intelligence.? All the former members are doing there own things, they have been for years.? Snakepit, Loaded, Neorotic Outsiders, Velvet Revolver.? None of them have anything to do with Guns N Roses, aside from one or two cover songs here and there.? As I said, you might say Steven milked GNR with Adler's Appetite, but Axl's bullshit lie came before Steven started that.  And even if Axl accused Steven of milking GNR, he would a hypocrite, because Steven did exactly what Axl did.  Axl and Steven are both one original member of Guns N Roses playing GNR songs on their tour.

What name is axl using? The name guns n roses, is that not correct?

No shit, genius.? That's exactly the fucking point.? Axl is 1/5 of Guns N Roses.? Yet he uses a band that four other guys helped make, he's playing songs that four other guys helped write, and then he hypocritically points the finger at those other four guys who are doing all sorts of other things and says that THEY are milking the Guns N Roses name.? So in that instance, Axl is a goddamn hypocrite and a liar, plain and simple.

Here, let me break it down so even you can understand...

Slash and Duff are doing Velvet Revolver.? They released their own album, and they're touring to support it.? It has nothing to do with Guns N Roses.? Granted, fans will be attracted to them because they're former GNR members, but that isn't their doing, brainiac.  I mean hell, they're always going to carry the stigma of being former GNR members, so fans will always come to see them for that reason, no matter what they're doing.  But they are essentially doing their own thing, yet Axl will say they're milking the GNR name.? That makes Axl a liar.? And given the fact that NOBODY milks the GNR name like Axl does (using the GNR name, playing entire sets of old songs, and not releasing any new material), he's a hypocrite to boot.

Jesus, why the hell am I even wasting my time explaining this?? Everything I said is as blatant as the truth can be, and you still don't listen.? You never will.

I have failed to see how anything? what axl said in these statements are lies.

You always fail to see whenever Axl is to blame.? Always.? You can't see it because you're insanely blinded by your worship of Axl Rose.? Axl is your superhero, and he can't do any wrong.? Not ever.? He could murder your mother and you'd find a way to excuse him.

Like I said, all you have to do is quote axl where he has contradicted himself from something that happened in the past.

It's time you consulted a dictionary, son.? Because apparently, you're the one who doesn't have the slighest clue what a lie is.? As I said before, Sherlock....

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO CONTRADICT YOURSELF IN ORDER TO LIE.

Get that through your damn skull.? Just because Axl's story is consistent doesn't mean jack shit in the way of truth.? He could be lying his ass off, but you say he's telling the truth simply because he's consistent.

Jesus Christ, I could consistently tell you the world is flat.? Does that mean I'm telling you the truth?

Or I could tell you now that the world is round.? Next time, I could tell you the world is a circle.? The time after that, I could tell you the world is spherical.? But that would mean I am changing my story and therefore I am lying, right?? Because the earth can't be all of the above?? It can't be round, circular, and spherical, can it?? I mean, my statements must be consistent in order to be true!? Right?? ?

Do you even know what a lie is?

Yeah, here's a great example of a bullshit lie....

That is 100% true, they quit guns n roses yet still milk the name for everything its worth.

So try again Dizzy.

Why bother?? Talking to someone like you is like talking to a fence post.? Hell, it's even worse.? Because at least when the wind blows hard enough, a fence post actually moves.

[TK1]

I just think both Axl and Slash have their own interpretations of what happened in the past.  Maybe Slash has changed his story on some things, but who hasn't when talking about things that happened years ago?  I think he's stayed pretty consistent on the big issue of why the original band split up.  Trivial things about who put the horn section together really doesn't matter to me.  Who knows; maybe it was Axl's idea for the horn section but Slash was actually the one to organize the players.   So, maybe he has changes his story, but I don't know if I would brand him as a liar just because of him changing a few trivial details from years ago. 

One thing that always did bother me was Axl saying the old guys were doing things to capatilze on the Guns N' Roses name.  That's a gutsy thing to say when you are trying to sell a new band as Guns N' Roses even though most of the guys in the band have absolutely no connection to any of the accomplishments that made the band so well known.   I know, I know; Axl owns the name and I accept that.  Still, it just seems a little ironic for Axl to say that in my opinion...

[Booker Floyd]

If you can show me some statements that contradict what axl has said in the past then you can say he is lying

"Everything on that record is exactly the f*cking way we wanted it. I can find a couple of points where a note wasn't quite in time, and a couple of things like that, but everything came out the way we wanted it." - Axl Rose, on the Illusions (Metallix, 1992)

"I gave into a lot of pressure on Illusions both internally in Guns and externally in the press, those albums suffered as a consequence, it's not something I'm too excited to have to live with again." - Axl Rose (Press Release, 2002)

"So, I opted for what I thought would or should've made the band and especially Slash very happy. Basically I was interested in making a Slash record with some contributions from everybody else." - Axl Rose (Press Release, 2002)

"I mean, what people don't know is, the [Slash's] Snakepit album, that is the Guns N' Roses album. I just wouldn't do it." - Axl Rose (MTV, 1999)

"People talk about player haters. Well, I don?t think it pays to be a ?hater - hater." - Axl Rose (Press Release, 2002)

"I think that there?s a little pussy-ass writer over at NME that owes me some rent money... for livin' inside my ass!" - Axl Rose (London show, August 26th, 2002)

Plus countless other insults along the way

"When it comes to Guns n? Roses, I may not always get everything right but I do have a good idea about getting things from point A to point B" - Axl Rose (Press Release, 2002) - Not necessarily a lie, but a ridiculous statement when you think about it. 

Just to clarify, I didnt post these to prove Axl is a liar...only to prove how silly and pointless Daves views are.

[dave-gnfnr2k]

Booker as? to your first statement, Axl even said "I can find a couple of points where a note wasn't quite in time, and a couple of things like that, but everything came out the way we wanted it"

then he said ""I gave into a lot of pressure on Illusions both internally in Guns and externally in the press, those albums suffered as a consequence, it's not something I'm too excited to have to live with again."

Those two sound pretty similar dont they?

Again like I said earlier about the snake pit album, axl told slash to go back and fix up the songs he brought but slash refused so axl didnt want to use those songs, what did? you not understand about that?

And booker if my views were so pointless? you sure did waste a lot of time finding a few quotes eh??
And the quotes  you found are hardly lies, the only one  you can make a case for is the one about making an album for slash, and thats it.

As for you dizzy you really like to talk in circles dont you?
As for my Bach statement link it so I can read what it is? you are claiming I said.

As for Axl milking the gnr name, I am curious just how is he doing this? He NEVER quit the band guns n roses like slash and duff did, so I dont see why people like? you get so pissed that he is still using the name. Axl unlike slash and duff care about the band guns n roses and wants to keep it a live.?

Guns n roses is his band, he was in the band before slash and he is still in the band after slash left.

It would be like you starting a company with a few friends, then? you leaving the company and getting pissed at? your friend for still using and making things under that company name.

[dave-gnfnr2k]

Ps Dizzy you still have no clue what a lie is. You think someone canceling a show is makes that person a liar.
So if a person that contradicts them self a lot about things that happened in the past is not a liar then what is it?

And yes you don't have to contradict yourself to be telling a lie but the point is, axls story has always remain consistent while slash's stories have changed a few times over the years, so what does that make slash? A liar.

Its one think to change your opinion on something that is subject IE music but its another to talk about factual events and keep changing what you say really happened.

Here is an example since I know you love to pull things out of context.

When I was younger I liked the band poison. Now that I am older I don't like them anymore.
Does that make me a liar? No it doesn't.

Now, In 1998 I claim I didn't fight in desert storm, now I claim I? fought in desert storm.
Does that make me a liar. Yes it does.

About axls version of what happened with the  break up of the band, no one knows if its 100% the truth or 100% a lie but its his version of what happened, and like i said its always remained pretty much consistent, where as slashs version of what happened keeps changing, thus that makes him lying about what really happened.

So, what is so hard to understand about that?

[Booker Floyd]

Booker as? to your first statement, Axl even said "I can find a couple of points where a note wasn't quite in time, and a couple of things like that, but everything came out the way we wanted it"

then he said ""I gave into a lot of pressure on Illusions both internally in Guns and externally in the press, those albums suffered as a consequence, it's not something I'm too excited to have to live with again."

Those two sound pretty similar dont they?

No?

Does a minor aside such as that take precedent over "Everything on that record is exactly the f*cking way we wanted it."??

The tone of the second, contradictory quite seems a little more serious than a couple of notes out of time, which Axl clearly illustrates as a virtual non-issue in the first quote.? Nice try though.?

Again like I said earlier about the snake pit album, axl told slash to go back and fix up the songs he brought but slash refused so axl didnt want to use those songs, what did? you not understand about that?

The Snakepit album was a Slash record.? Axl refused to do it.? Later, Axl says he was interested in making a Slash record... ? Justify how you will, its a contradiction - precisely what you skewer Slash for on a regular basis.?

Nows the part where you exclaim, "But he said with contributions from everyone else!"? Check the Snakepit credits for contributions from Matt Sorum, Gilby Clarke, Duff McKagan, Teddy Andreadis, and Mike Clink.

And booker if my views were so pointless? you sure did waste a lot of time finding a few quotes eh??

Nope.? 7 minutes, tops.? But I did it to illustrate that your views pointless...that was my point and I successfully made it.?

As for you dizzy you really like to talk in circles dont you?
As for my Bach statement link it so I can read what it is? you are claiming I said.

Didnt I do that before??

You started out claiming Slash would fuck up and make the wrong decision, which was Bach over Weiland.

Then he picked Weiland, and you claimed he did it to sell records, and that Bach was a better singer/songwriter, indicating he mustve been the right choice, right?? Not according to you.

So event though Bach is a much better singer and songer writer, scott equals more album sales thus they picked him instead.

Im so glad they didnt pick Bach, because he really would have made the album suck.

So, hes a better singer/songwriter, yet he wouldve really made the album suck and youre glad he wasnt picked.? ?

Truth hurts, doesnt it Mr. Contradiction?

where as slashs version of what happened keeps changing, thus that makes him lying about what really happened.

Examples?

Slash has given more than one reasons for the breakup, all of which can be perfectly valid, and likely are since theyre supported by every other bandmate that isnt Axl.  Because he gives more than one doesnt mean hes lying.  But okay, go ahead and prove your case.

[speed_stone]

So, hes a better singer/songwriter, yet he wouldve really made the album suck and youre glad he wasnt picked.? ?

lmao!

this discussion is crazy... gnr fans really, TRULY need something new to talk about.

sweet memories though, lol

[coolman78SLASH]

booker Floyd and dizzy.. I admire your patience..  You have taken apart every little statement that Dave has said, and basically proved him wrong on most of them..  I only wish I had the time to get so deep in to this discussion, because you guys have just written what I was thinking, but didn't have time to write...  RESPECT !! 
If you have almost all of Axl's former friends and partners saying that Axl is a special guy, talented as hell, but a pain in the ass to be around, on one side(like Slash,Duff,Steven,Izzy,Gilby,Matt,Teddy,Traci Guns,Chris Weber,managers,promoters,girlfriends,wives,fellow artists,journalists and many,many more), and Axl + whoever gets his paycheck from him at that particular time on the other side, telling you that Axl is the good guy,and all the others are bad.. don't you kind of start to see a pattern here..? The day one of the current members leaves (and you know it,and I know it: some of them will either quit, or be fired sometime along the way) they will probably badmouth Axl as well. It's happend so many times, it seems to be the standard, not the exception. Everyone here agree that Axl is a incedible artist,singer, writer, frontman, "superhero" and all that, but it doesn't mean he is a easy person to work with (or live with) ,and instead of everyone else having to addapt to his behavior, and be very carefull how they express themselves in front of him, or in the media, maybe he needs to work on his issues and try to be more easy for others to be around.. just like most of us has to do in our lives?  He is just a human like everybody else, and I'm sure his shit smells bad, just like mine, or yours, so don't treat the guy like he's a God, or King, because he ain't....  No offense to Axl if he reads this, but I think Axl has been surrounded by "yes-men" to much already.. Wake up !

[Taz]

This "newgnr" thing is composed by yes-men, so it should be called "Axl & The Lackeys".

[PhillyRiot]

Great work Booker.  Glad you see things my way.

[jarmo]

Nice to see certain fans turn up in the GN'R section as soon as there's something to whine about regarding Axl. 


This is fucking stupid, you don't agree on who's right and who's wrong. There's two sides to the story and you choose to believe different stories. Big deal.

This reminds me of something Axl said back in 1991 in St Louis.

Something like: I'm just trying to figure out. What is it? I must have some huge reputation of
lying my ass off all the time?

I guess that's just it. It's like, basically if you're talking to Axl, argue with
him and don't believe him because he is just known for lying in his music and in his
personal life. He just lies all the time I guess. Is that what he does?


Another thing. How can you prove Axl is lying regarding the Snakepit songs?

Maybe it went down like this:

Slash: Hey Axl, here's a bunch of songs we can do for the next album. 
Axl: No, I don't want to do them. They're not done yet, we need to work on them some more.
Slash: Ok, I'll record them then. 

(later)

Axl: Where's the songs? 
Slash: You said you didn't want to record them so I did with my own band. 


1995:
Slash: Axl didn't want to record the songs, so I took them and did it myself.

2002:
Axl: Slash didn't want to work on his material.


Ok, now what if that happened. Is Axl a liar?


/jarmo

[Booker Floyd]

Nice to see certain fans turn up in the GN'R section as soon as there's something to whine about regarding Axl.?

What did you expect, my opinions on breaking news??

But youre wrong...my post wasnt about Axl, its about the inane mindset of some posters.? I used Axl as an example since thats seemingly the only to get through to some people and point out their blatant hypocrisy.

Another thing. How can you prove Axl is lying regarding the Snakepit songs?

Maybe it went down like this:

Slash: Hey Axl, here's a bunch of songs we can do for the next album.?
Axl: No, I don't want to do them. They're not done yet, we need to work on them some more.
Slash: Ok, I'll record them then.?

(later)

Axl: Where's the songs??
Slash: You said you didn't want to record them so I did with my own band.?


1995:
Slash: Axl didn't want to record the songs, so I took them and did it myself.

2002:
Axl: Slash didn't want to work on his material.


Ok, now what if that happened. Is Axl a liar?

Thats exactly it, Jarmo.? Youve proved my point, which I hope Dave and others like him understand - seemingly contradictory statements do not make one a liar.? For Axl to say he wanted to make a "Slash record" and then turn down a Slash record is contradictory at face value.? But common sense leads us to believe that its usually not that simple, and if Axl is afforded that benefit of the doubt, shouldnt others be afforded the same?

[younggunner]

listen motherfuckers to a song that should be heard, dragged down in the gutter, more than you deserve, kneeling fucking banshee,,,,you know tahts what you are..pussy for a maggot....

[Naupis]

On the subject of lying......President Bush says and has said Iraq had the capability to produce WMD's and has been nothing but consistent about it since he started talking about it. It has been proved otherwise that those weapons never existed and he didn't have the capabilities. Does it mean he's still telling the truth just because he's been consistent? To me it would seem like he's lying, but I guess in the mind of some posters consistency equals truth even in the presence of fact.

[dave-gnfnr2k]

On the subject of lying......President Bush says and has said Iraq had the capability to produce WMD's and has been nothing but consistent about it since he started talking about it. It has been proved otherwise that those weapons never existed and he didn't have the capabilities. Does it mean he's still telling the truth just because he's been consistent? To me it would seem like he's lying, but I guess in the mind of some posters consistency equals truth even in the presence of fact.

The statement? you made is false if im not mistaken.? Iraq had the facitlities but no WMD were found in them.
I find this to be very humorous all theses slash lovers are trying to disprove that slash is a liar because he is always changing his story about how the old band broke up.?

Slash could stay consistent with his story and that would be his version of what happenend and that would be fine but he keeps changing yet.

Like i said before you cant really lie about an opinion just about facts that happened in the past, so what is so hard to understand about that.

You slash fans can? try and twist this how ever you want but its a fact slash? has never been truthful of what really happened since he keeps changing his story.

Yes everytime? you contradict yourself its not a lie but at the same? time it can also be a lie but some of you dont understand that or are just being ignorant.

Here are two defs of what lying is.

"A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood."
"Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression."


So slash is trying to decieve people by contradicting himself, that is why its a lie.
You can change your mind about something and its still not a lie but when you are talking about something that happened then change what really happened thatis not being truthful



But slash fans keep LYING to yourself, its ok, do what ever? you have to do to make? yourself sleep at night.
By the same few who always nitpick are doing it here just prove you know that what I am saying is true, that is why you always try and twist it into something its not. Good job guys 

[John Daniels]

listen motherfuckers to a song that should be heard, dragged down in the gutter, more than you deserve, kneeling fucking banshee,,,,you know tahts what you are..pussy for a maggot....

What does a Dizzy Reed/Pittman song got to do with this thread..





great debate by the way.