why are scotts song on contaband not self indulgent but Axls on the UYIs and ..

[Oddy]

sorry dave it wasn't an attack on you, its just that these sorts of threads always end up being around 60% argument between you two guys about stuff off the topic of the thread.

personally i don't relate to scott's lyrics at all. hell i can't even remember any of his lyrics and i listen to contriband a lot. tapeworm abortion or whateva. I only seem to remember the chorus of scott's songs, especially in the rockers his lyrics dont make much sense.

I guess its just a different writing style, you either like it or you don't. I think scott has a knack for creating memorable vocal melodies, they're awesome on contraband but the lyrics really let it down. Its all how you interpret them i guess. I mean smells like teen spirit, wtf

A mosquito, my libido, an albino? and people consider that song genius.

and booker i disagree with your perception of self indulgent. i see self indulgent as a song like, i dunno get in the ring. its more "im gonna kick your ass im the greatest *various metaphores to how much pain you can give someone*. I don't see november rain or estranged as self indulgent simply because they have strings and horns or whatever the hell.

i see self indulgent as inflating your ego in a song, making the song revolve around you. ok that could be every song, but you know what i mean. or maybe you don't. 

i dunno i'll shut up now.

[Top-Hatted One]

yeah but no everyone turns to drugs because they want to party.

Heroin is Scott's favorite way of medicating himself for bi-polar

[Top-Hatted One]

read some articles posted about scott being bi-polar at the official stp board. quite fascinating stuff. A lot of Scott's lyrics describe going what it's like going through the low side of bi-polar and how ugly it is.

[Booker Floyd]

and booker i disagree with your perception of self indulgent. i see self indulgent as a song like, i dunno get in the ring. its more "im gonna kick your ass im the greatest *various metaphores to how much pain you can give someone*. I don't see november rain or estranged as self indulgent simply because they have strings and horns or whatever the hell.

I never really said it was my perception...I think its more common perception among those who do choose to call those songs "self-indulgent".

That?s funny booker since I didn?t say maddy is better than anything, I just used it as an example of people calling it self indulgent yet a song like falling to pieces is not.

The only self-indulgent thing about "Madagascar" would be the 2-minute quote breakdown, not his lyrics.  So what would make "Fall To Pieces" self-indulgent?  Personal lyrics do not mean "self-indulgent". 

As for the strings and all that other making the song self indulgent, so are zepplins songs self indulgent, is bohemian rhapsody, one of the best songs ever, self indulgent, are the beatles songs that do this self-indulgent?

To many critics, they are.  I wasnt really giving my opinion, just explaining what many critics have pointed out over the years. 

You are missing the point.  You can help being a junkie or drunk. Just dont drink or do drugs.

Like many have pointed out, Scott is also bi-polar.

[younggunner]

The only self-indulgent thing about "Madagascar" would be the 2-minute quote breakdown

What is so self- indulgent about the quotes?

[Booker Floyd]

The only self-indulgent thing about "Madagascar" would be the 2-minute quote breakdown

What is so self- indulgent about the quotes?

One could certainly argue (as I have before) that using Martin Luther Kings speech in a song (especially one that appears more personal than social) is more than a little pretentious. 

But aside from that, agree or not, theres probably many people who find 2-minute quote breakdowns such as that to be self-indulgent nonsense.  If you dont agree, then you dont agree.  Theres not much more to say.

[Naupis]

I also find using Dr. King's I have a dream speech about the civil rights struggles of an entire race of people as some sort of parrallel to some infighting between band members to be a little ridiculous. The lines they use may be fitting within the context of what he is trying to say, but that speech is sacred in this country and it almost belittles it putting it in a song where all he is singing about is how everyone hates him and he is not gonna take anymore. I like the song alot but it could have done without those samples. Especially using something as historically important as the MLK speech to whine about how your old band and everyone hates you.

[mikegiuliana]

Fall to pieces, one song going on when he joined the group, afd was basically an album about problems

Maybe with axl it's because it's about his relationships and the songs are massive productions..

mr brownstone=drugs
scom=relationship

I love those songs, i think it's more about those huge piano ballads, to me it took away from the group..

If axl was a regular guy and released music frequently and wasn't in seclusion all the time he wouldn't get such bothering.. When someone  has time on their hands and has the same songs to think abou they find faults.. Things get boring, and you tend to see the negatives..

[oldleadbelly]

dave, I'll answer your question about the beatles, zep, etc.  Yes, a lot of the work by these bands is EXTREMELY self-indulgent.  The beatles often claimed to have the answer to the world's problems in their songs, and Bohemian by Queen is a bloated rock opera all by itself--shamelessly self-important.  In fact, that's what Queen was going for in that song...something larger than life.  Here's the problem dave, you equate self-indulgent to bad.  Though the songs and bands I just mentioned are self-indulgent, I love every one of them.  They are rock masterpieces.  Sure some critics give off a negative connotation when they call axl self-indulgent, but who cares.  Be happy with the music you like.  It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.  You don't constantly have to take up for GNR and Axl, they will be fine on their own.  Once again, Self-indulgent does not equal bad.

[dave-gnfnr2k]

dave, I'll answer your question about the beatles, zep, etc.? Yes, a lot of the work by these bands is EXTREMELY self-indulgent.? The beatles often claimed to have the answer to the world's problems in their songs, and Bohemian by Queen is a bloated rock opera all by itself--shamelessly self-important.? In fact, that's what Queen was going for in that song...something larger than life.? Here's the problem dave, you equate self-indulgent to bad.? Though the songs and bands I just mentioned are self-indulgent, I love every one of them.? They are rock masterpieces.? Sure some critics give off a negative connotation when they call axl self-indulgent, but who cares.? Be happy with the music you like.? It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.? You don't constantly have to take up for GNR and Axl, they will be fine on their own.? Once again, Self-indulgent does not equal bad.

Well people tend to use the term self-indulgent as a knock not a compliment, so i was just wondering.
And Im not constantly taking up for gnr and axl, i was just asking a question to get a good convo going.
Because on these boards there are many double standards.

But thanks for a good answer.

[badgirl]

I also find using Dr. King's I have a dream speech about the civil rights struggles of an entire race of people as some sort of parrallel to some infighting between band members to be a little ridiculous. The lines they use may be fitting within the context of what he is trying to say, but that speech is sacred in this country and it almost belittles it putting it in a song where all he is singing about is how everyone hates him and he is not gonna take anymore. I like the song alot but it could have done without those samples. Especially using something as historically important as the MLK speech to whine about how your old band and everyone hates you.

 
true true.

[dave-gnfnr2k]

So was it bad when Living color in used MLK and JFK quotes in their song cult of peronality?

[younggunner]

If Maddy was played on the radio today, would people get offended by the MLK quotes?....the answer to that is NO. The question wouldnt even come up.

[St.heathen]

Personally i don't know enough about Scott's personal life to be able to judge him or comment on what he has gone through in life. 
Since when do you measure up what problems in a persons life are more harming or painful than others?  Life can be a fucking bitch ..."oh all his problems are self inflicted" how the fuck do you know? There could be lot's about his life we don't know and it's not really our place to know.  At least he has experienced things - emotions,  success and fuck ups - as should everyone by the time they are 6ft under.  But it all makes song lyrics alot richer - music history shows us that.

I don't know if you have tried writting songs. But ideas for songs come from many places.  Some are biographical written from experiences, some are fiction maybe sparked by something you have seen.  Some are a mix of the two and some are just words you fitted together and they work. You could call any artist self indulgent.

If you look at any artists work you can  some sort of pattern in what they sing about and alot of rock songs deal with similar topics such as; outsiders, love/hate, desire ect .......some are just words thrown together to fit in with the attitude of the music. 

Some music ...say someone like PiL or God speed you Black Emperor. Sometimes I can listen to them and it's self indulgent  nonsense and does your(my)  head in.  But other times i can put it on when i'm all mellowed and makes sense and is fucking awsome.

So it's very subjective - i know you were probably just wanting another Axl vs Scott argument. But there's simply not one.  STP have made some great fucking records with varied themes running through the lyrics and so have GN'R.

It's rock n' roll man.....if you analyse every fucking detail then you'll just drain the fun out of it.  Just enjoy it if you enjoy it and ignore it if you don't - simple.

 

[the dirt]

If Maddy was played on the radio today, would people get offended by the MLK quotes?....the answer to that is NO. The question wouldnt even come up.

It actually could...

[younggunner]

It actually could...

Anything could....

But there would be no uprising or questioning baout the way the song uses MLK quotes...only certain gnr fans could come up with somehting liek that....

[Top-Hatted One]

Personally i don't know enough about Scott's personal life to be able to judge him or comment on what he has gone through in life.?
Since when do you measure up what problems in a persons life are more harming or painful than others?? Life can be a fucking bitch ..."oh all his problems are self inflicted" how the fuck do you know? There could be lot's about his life we don't know and it's not really our place to know.? At least he has experienced things - emotions,? success and fuck ups - as should everyone by the time they are 6ft under.? But it all makes song lyrics alot richer - music history shows us that.

I don't know if you have tried writting songs. But ideas for songs come from many places.? Some are biographical written from experiences, some are fiction maybe sparked by something you have seen.? Some are a mix of the two and some are just words you fitted together and they work. You could call any artist self indulgent.

If you look at any artists work you can? some sort of pattern in what they sing about and alot of rock songs deal with similar topics such as; outsiders, love/hate, desire ect .......some are just words thrown together to fit in with the attitude of the music.?

Some music ...say someone like PiL or God speed you Black Emperor. Sometimes I can listen to them and it's self indulgent? nonsense and does your(my)? head in.? But other times i can put it on when i'm all mellowed and makes sense and is fucking awsome.

So it's very subjective - i know you were probably just wanting another Axl vs Scott argument. But there's simply not one.? STP have made some great fucking records with varied themes running through the lyrics and so have GN'R.

It's rock n' roll man.....if you analyse every fucking detail then you'll just drain the fun out of it.? Just enjoy it if you enjoy it and ignore it if you don't - simple.

?

Great Post! that's what I was trying to say about Axl. You can criticize him for being self-indulgent because lyricists right about whatever they are inspired by at the current time.

[Eva GnRAxlRosette]

"some critics give off a negative connotation when they call axl self-indulgent"

I've never heard a critic use "self indulgent" as a compliment

anyway, dave... good thread
a lot of great songs are considered "bloated" or "self-indulgent"... some mentioned in this thread
when they are  just meant to be "huge" or (also as already mentioned in this thread)"larger than life"

the answer to the question is that while both scott and axl may write songs that equally qualify for the "self indulgent" nomer...
some fans of Scott/VR that resent Axl (for various reasons - ie: blaming him for ruining GN'R etc.) will just simply always criticize whatever he does..   and conversely praise whatever Scott does in VR because then its all that much better to somehow in their mind show that the problem with GN'R was Axl (by saying.. if 3/5th of GN'R suceed as VR with Scott then its Axl who was the problem - that type of thing, know what I mean?)
also... while Scott has a rep for being a "bad boy" or "troubled" it is Axl who has been burdened with the "asshole" rep.. so basically for some they will always find fault and things to criticize about whatever he does no matter what

[Mr Cowbell ?]

[quote author=dave-gnfnr2k link=topic=15270.msg263822#msg263822 You are missing the point.? You can help being a junkie or drunk. Just dont drink or do drugs.
And being a junkie or drunk you got that way on your own, you started doing that crap, where as being abused as a child is something you have no control over, and like i said those scars are with you forever.

You are so blind by your love of Axl. How can you sit there and say being a junkie or a drunk is something you can stop from happening. Its a long dark road and that is why people OD and die.  Alcoholism has been found in genes and is something that can be passed on. Its a very serious and dark world o fall into, and I am not missing the point, you are, you don't even understand how dangerous those problems can be, go ask Bon Scott or Keith Moon if they think they are serious things.

[darkmonth]

why are scotts song on contaband  not self indulgent but Axls on the UYIs and the ones we have heard from CD are?
This always puzzled me. Any good legit answers? Both write about their problems yet there seems to be a double standard.

Well, who gives a fuck?  And why bring this shit up?  I assume you want to start an Axl vs Scott lyrics flame war.  Don't bother.

Both of these guys are at the top of their field musically and there is no need to compare coz they are different styles.