Fall to Pieces video now at Launch.com

[Dayle1066]

ding ding ding. its totally played out. maybe if you are a 15 year old boy you are tickled by two girls kissing, but if this band wants real credibility, they need to appeal to more than the horny teenager male fanbase.?
take this tip guys: midgets and girls kissing are all very OVER concepts in rock videos.

You think its possible that they werent out to tickle anybody?? That scene is such a minute detail in the video, that its silly to complain about.? Its like saying "OMG parties in videos are so played out"...Well, so what?? Theyre minor details in a video thats about something very diffrent...Something credible, since you brought it up.

The kiss wasnt a concept in the video, it was a detail, and one that served a purpose.? Theyre obviously contrasting the bands partying to Scotts suffering...so what are they going to do in Matts scene?? Have a clown or magician making balloon puppets?? Theyre probably going to reflect Matts real-life partying, which most likely includes socializing with girls, and yes, watching them kiss.? And yes, theres the asthetic factor of two girls kissing that doesnt hurt.? But like I said, its a minor detail, and it has a point.

However, out of curiosity, can you name a few of the exhaustive list of videos featuring lesbian kissing?? I can think of like 3 or 4 tops...

Bad girl has a valid point. I sure don't have anything against two girls kissing, but that scene makes no sense. It seems like they had to fit Matt in the video as duff, slash and Scott have their little parts throughout. So, what could we suse to make Matt stand out for a couple of seconds? Hmm...bring two girls and make believe he'll have an orgy with them. I'm not saying it's not realistic ( Sure Matt still enjoys his single life) but I find it weird seeing a 44 year old guy representing the early 20's year old Rock Star clich?.

Do u see n e "rock stars" living that lifestyle today? No. And I wouldnt class 3 ppl as a orgy...

[badgirl]

See, I don't know if women kiss to impress guys or because they like it themselves - probably a combo of both.? But I think I really do have to side with badgirl in this situation.? The women kissing thing in popular culture is totally played out - I would almost rather see two guys kissing at this point, just because it would be different.? And if women are making out only for the titilation of men - fuck that.? I don't think they are, though.? To me, the instance of "straight" women kissing each other just reminds me that women dislike men so much they're willing to go for each other instead.?

That said, I thought the thing in the video was not a big deal - just showed the overall carnival atmosphere that the band profuses to practice.? Me personally, I just rolled my eyes at the lesbian kiss.? Way to go, Matt - you're watching two girls kiss.? You don't have to be a rock star to do that, you just need to own a computer.? A minor detail, rather insignificant.? It's not wrong, just boring.? Unlike the video as a whole, which was riveting.

Rock on, VR.

Matt, obviously i agree with you, however, i wanted to give you a female perspective regarding the "hating men" thing and how it relates to lesbianism/bisexuality. this, unfortunately, is another commmon misconception (and it is also a bit of a mysoginistic one-- don't worry i don't think you are a mysoginist). why can't women kiss because they like it themselves? why does it have to be that its because they "hate men"? why do men have to be involved at all? some girls just like girls. its that simple. men have nothing to do with this preference or this decision.
BUT...i will tell you that most "bi" girls (which usually ends up being straight girls who have had too much to drink) will make out for male attention. So, yes, they enjoy it, but only in so far as it excites you and turns you on and gives them the attention they want. put it this way- most of these girls would not be kissing if they were drinking alone at one of their houses. i can't speak for everyone, obviously, but from my experience (including a good friend who wanted to make out with me because she was drunk and wanted to appeal to a group of guys who were watching us), the kind of women you see in a rock n roll context (straight women- never lesbians) are doing it for the guys.

And by the way- guys kissing? that is getting played out too. Once Christina Aguilera does something, you can pretty much consider it over. 

[younggunner]

maybe they should change song title and call ftp Loving the Lesbians?

[Freya]

SO...since women's sexuality is rarely depicted as something FOR us, about OUR pleasure and is instead depicted as something we do "for you guys", that is a bad thing.

I'll back you up badgirl.? It's true.? I wasn't offended by the video, just because it's just another image in a long line of male rock video fantasies.? But yes, the trend in the past few years of women publicly making out in bars and on television is expressly for the titillation of men and the validation women get from that.? Most real life lesbian couples don't make spectacles of themselves, just like most hetero couples don't.? ?

Like I say, I wasn't offended, although it did bolster my opinion that Matt Sorum is kind of a pig.? ?

After all, strippers in rock videos is such an over concept.  Girls dancing for men is completely demeaning by your logic, right?  Yet your favorite bands (Guns to VR, and Im sure any other band you can name) have perpetuated this cliche...

Well, female fans are used to putting up with this stuff.  I've overlooked a lot of sexist videos, comments by bands, over the years, because I was a fan of the music.  That shouldn't bar us from commenting when we feel like it.  Whether Sorum's real life is like that (I'm guessing it is), is not the point.  He's your typical middle-aged dude, getting laid by young girls because of his associations with more famous rock stars.  I heard an account of a girl who was at this video shoot saying that Sorum was directing "his girl" on how to present herself in the video, it's just so patronizing, for lack of a better word, he's a weiner.

Although, I will say that Scott and Duff's scenes however unintentional, were highly homoerotic, and me likey!

[gypsy eyes]

what, you think girls are going to watch that and get turned on?. so yes, the girls were not forced to do anything but that is not the point. female sexuality has a long history of being depicted as a male entity- meaning that women hook up for men, not for themselves.

you might be surprised to know that there are actually girls out there who do like to see two girls kiss and who do get turned on by it... it's not just men!

and, another shocker, some women actually do hook up because they like it, and not because there happens to be a man around!

please don't generalise this... there are plenty of women out there who like other women and who like to watch other women, without any men being invloved... and before you start ranting, read on, i quoted something else you said about this...

i don't have any problems with two girls kissing. what i have problems with are
1. women kissing for the tittilation and entertainment of men
2. women kissing being overused as a concept in popular culture (especially now- once Britney Spears does something, i would pretty much say "its over".)

1. again... what makes you so convinced all girls who kiss do it only for men??
2. i don't think you can compare Brintey Spears to VR but anyways... it has been around for over 2000 years and it will stay too; girls kiss! And not just for men! Girls kiss, girls make out, and they like it... i don't think you can call it a "trend" to be gay (or bi). now as far as the girl on girl action in the pop industry goes... yeah they show two girls kissing... maybe the very first time they did that it was special but now it's not special anymore... does that make it "over"? "over" as in "not cool anymore" maybe... but then again, if the only way to be cool and to get attention is by showing two people of the same sex kissing i think you have a serious problem... now for dear Britney it might do the trick but VR doesn't need to get attention that way.
so maybe if that's what they were after (witch they aren't!!!!!) you could say that it's stupid and "over" but that wasn't what the video was about!
now if you mean "over" as in "it doesn"t happen anymore" you're way off... it happens all the time, you don't have to be a rockstar to see two girls kissing, you just go to a bar, a party, and you'll see the same. that's what the video is about... a party for the band (without scott.. contrast.. blabla, you know ) and how are they gonna show it's a party? well what do you have at a party? music, you can see slash with his guitar. booze, you got that too. chicks, you got that too... it's really not a big deal! it happens all the time, it's nothing shocking and you shouldn't make such a fuzz about it! slash has his special "thing", so does scott, so does duff... matt and dave are just having fun with the girls and that's it... no doubt in my mind that's what happens at their "real" parties too... so lighten up please, it was a few seconds with the sole purpose of showing a bandmember having a good time at a party while his friend is almost dying!

BUT...i will tell you that most "bi" girls (which usually ends up being straight girls who have had too much to drink) will make out for male attention. So, yes, they enjoy it, but only in so far as it excites you and turns you on and gives them the attention they want. put it this way- most of these girls would not be kissing if they were drinking alone at one of their houses.

i don't know what "bi" girls you know but what you describe there isn't exactly a real bisexual girl... it's a pathetic attempt by a straight chick to get attention and that's lame... so bitch on that all you want, i agree with you there... but just don't say that ALL bi girls are just drunk or looking for attention because that's only a minority of (mostly stupid teenage) girls, who make it much harder for the REAL bi or gay girls to come out

"let's just have a little scene with a couple of girls so we can have the whole Rock and Roll image going"

that's just lame... it's not a video to show how "rock n' roll" they are (what they don't even have to show, i think their biographies say enough!) it's a damn party, would you people just get over it?!!

This video is not about each band member's life...otherwise we would have seen Duff showing everybody he has mastered the secrets of Kung Fu!!!?

good! it's about a party, a party where things that happen at "normal" parties also happen... like drinking... and girls kissing...

oh and btw; it's not Kung Fu, it's karate and kick boxing

this band can't sell the rock and roll image when they all have families & kids ( except Matt) and cleaned up. What makes them now so dangerous?

are you sorry that they have a family and are clean? you're almost making it sound that way... mick jagger says he'd now rather read a good book than trash a hotel room, let's burn mick jagger!
yes they're older and less dangerous, so what? like i said, check out their biographies!! those guys had more partying and fighting and rock 'n roll in less than a decade than "normal" people would get in a whole lifetime, and it nearly cost them their lives... in this specific video you see how Scott nearly dies, while he is the one member in the band who still uses drugs and gets into fights and all that crap... they show how drugs and "rock 'n roll lifestyle" can fuck you up... so sorry if you think they aren't rebel rebel enough, at least they're not death, witch can't be said of most people who live "dangerously" for 40 years straight
but of course if you prefer a dead badass rocker over a happy healthy one that's your right

By the way, VH1 has been running a lot of promos about premiering "Fall To Pieces" tomorrow at 9 PM.? Its almost being treated like an event, which I find pretty cool.? I cant recall them doing this for any recent videos - does anybody else??

that's today... and i can't see it
but i hadn't heard about that yet, you got some more info on that?

[Freya]

a party where things that happen at "normal" parties also happen... like drinking... and girls kissing...

lol, since when did that become "normal"?  Of course, real women couples hook up, that's not the issue at all, but, they don't do it in this manner, in front of cheering men.  If the women in the video, really wanted to be "together", Sorum wouldn't have been there.  You get a group of straight women together at a party, I can guarantee you there won't be any making out.  You get a group of st8 men and women at a party with alcohol, there might be.  It's sexual role playing for the sake of validation, plain and simple. 

[Booker Floyd]

Do you think if somebody made an all animated video today people would say "Wow, that's really groundbreaking!"? No, things have changed a bit since the 1980s.

Did my point about the GNR videos have anything to do with "groundbreaking"?  Ill answer: no.  I was pointing out to Badgirl that her other favorite band indulged in even worse misogynistic "cliches," and wondering if she had the same objections.  I doubt shed say "Well that was 1994, misogyny was okay then".

Here's something else for you Booker, since I know you love my posts asking questions. Does anybody find it a bit funny that VR are now filming the kind of videos Axl wanted GN'R to make? The kinds that tells a story? At least they didn't make Slash "act" like he did in the GN'R videos.?

No.  Ask me again when they start making the videos with dolphins and air carriers.

[gypsy eyes]

a party where things that happen at "normal" parties also happen... like drinking... and girls kissing...

lol, since when did that become "normal"?? Of course, real women couples hook up, that's not the issue at all, but, they don't do it in this manner, in front of cheering men.? If the women in the video, really wanted to be "together", Sorum wouldn't have been there.? You get a group of straight women together at a party, I can guarantee you there won't be any making out.? You get a group of st8 men and women at a party with alcohol, there might be.? It's sexual role playing for the sake of validation, plain and simple.?

well most parties you do see that kind of shit... depends of course what parties and clubs you go to... you won't find much action on a cheese-and-whine evening


and it was a threesome... ever tried that? means there are THREE people involved... can be three men, three women, two men and a woman or two women and one man, like here with Matt and the two girls... and he first kissed one girl, then the girl kissed the other girl, and then he kissed them again, that's how it goes... again: nothing special about that... threesomes aren't that rare you know


and i said it before: women who make out ONLY to arrouse the men around them are either very drunk or in porn movies... it really doesn't happen that often (unlike threesomes or two girls kissing eachother because they really like it!) would you kiss another girl to turn your bf on? i know i wouldn't! but a threesome is another thing...


and people PLEASE: it was only for one and a half second!!!!!! get over it already!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Freya]

would you kiss another girl to turn your bf on? i know i wouldn't! but a threesome is another thing...

I am old and married, so the answer would be no.  I think most threesomes benefit the male don't you?  I don't think Sorum would be involved in boy-boy-girl action.  lol

[jarmo]

Do you think if somebody made an all animated video today people would say "Wow, that's really groundbreaking!"? No, things have changed a bit since the 1980s.

Did my point about the GNR videos have anything to do with "groundbreaking"?? Ill answer: no.? I was pointing out to Badgirl that her other favorite band indulged in even worse misogynistic "cliches," and wondering if she had the same objections.? I doubt shed say "Well that was 1994, misogyny was okay then".

Obviously you missed the point. The groundbreaking comment was about how some of the 80s stuff were considered cool back then is lame now. Stuff that was groundbreaking/cool/new back then might not be today. Except for the people who still thinks it's 1987.?

I'm sure badgirl agrees with me that things done in 1987 when you're about 20 years old isn't as "bad" as things done in 2004 when you're around 40 years old.

I do find it funny how some people say hard rock videos in the 1980s were bad when today's hip hop videos are worse.....


By the way, wasn't this video supposed to have some kind of 1970s "theme" to it?



/jarmo

[Doc Emmett Brown]

what did this thread turn into? 

I dont suppose any of you protesters care to connect the inconsequential lesbo scene with the more relevant and important scene between Scott and Duff hugging each other?  Showing both these things sets up a good contrast between what is real and what is image - which gives the video a lot of depth.  You dont often see that in a straight forward rnr video.  Can anyone see that??


Is the miniscule lesbo scene cliched and hackneyed?  -  I suppose it is.

Do people still enjoy watching it?  -  Most straight guys do even if a few so-called cultured people roll their eyes it. 

Does it make Matt look like an aging wrinkly adolescent?     Yes, but we already knew that, and now the whole world does too.  Just read his "tragic" story about his dog and all the naked women.

and people PLEASE: it was only for one and a half second!!!!!! get over it already!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[badgirl]

a party where things that happen at "normal" parties also happen... like drinking... and girls kissing...

lol, since when did that become "normal"?? Of course, real women couples hook up, that's not the issue at all, but, they don't do it in this manner, in front of cheering men.? If the women in the video, really wanted to be "together", Sorum wouldn't have been there.? You get a group of straight women together at a party, I can guarantee you there won't be any making out.? You get a group of st8 men and women at a party with alcohol, there might be.? It's sexual role playing for the sake of validation, plain and simple.?

THANK YOU! Freya, you always say things better than i do. i feel like those who are disagreeing with me, really aren't understanding what i am actually saying. 
I shouldn't have to say this, but OBVIOUSLY women hook up with other women because they want to. no one is saying that is not the case. what we ARE discussing here, are women who do so in the presence of, and for the entertainment of, men (or in this case, overthehill rock stars who have a sexual inferiority complex of sorts.  ), WHY they do it, and HOW it is detrimental for all our our sexualities.

i was such a fan of Sorum. at the concert at Roseland, he was super super nice, making eye contact with every fan (male and female), making sure everyone got autographs and pictures. then i laughed my ass off on the Behind The Music when he said "i thought i was joining this hard core rock n roll band... axl, what's with the piano?" 
but between the comments he made/makes about banging 21 year olds (which is just so gross- and YES, it is gross when Jagger, a corpse, does it too) and now this little clip, i don't really respect him anymore.

[badgirl]

Do you think if somebody made an all animated video today people would say "Wow, that's really groundbreaking!"? No, things have changed a bit since the 1980s.

Did my point about the GNR videos have anything to do with "groundbreaking"?? Ill answer: no.? I was pointing out to Badgirl that her other favorite band indulged in even worse misogynistic "cliches," and wondering if she had the same objections.  I doubt shed say "Well that was 1994, misogyny was okay then".

Obviously you missed the point. The groundbreaking comment was about how some of the 80s stuff were considered cool back then is lame now. Stuff that was groundbreaking/cool/new back then might not be today. Except for the people who still thinks it's 1987.?

I'm sure badgirl agrees with me that things done in 1987 when you're about 20 years old isn't as "bad" as things done in 2004 when you're around 40 years old.

I do find it funny how some people say hard rock videos in the 1980s were bad when today's hip hop videos are worse.....


By the way, wasn't this video supposed to have some kind of 1970s "theme" to it?



/jarmo

can you all please fucking stop telling us to "get over it". we are having a DISCUSSION here, and its actually an intelligent one, so if you don't like it, don't read it. no one here is angry at the band (disappointed maybe), we are throwing ideas around, listening to perspectives. you get over it. not every post has to be "it's cool"/ "it sucks"

Booker, i will answer your question since i didn't before. the reason 1984 misogonistic videos were okay to me was because i was 6 and i didn't know what misogny was, much less how it impacted my sexual identity. i don't remember those videos (though i do recall a disgusting video by Sam Kinison with his chick in a boxing ring while his rock buddies were egging her on) so i really can't comment on it. All i can discuss is videos today (and obviously rap videos are atrocious) but we are speaking of Velvet Revolver on this board and Fall To Pieces in this thread, so the focus of my attention is there.

But what Freya said is accurate. Most of us tolerate a lot of this shit because we like the music. Some bands use these images because their music is shit (britney), but i expect more from a band like Velvet Revolver whose music speaks for itself.

[Doc Emmett Brown]

But what Freya said is accurate. Most of us tolerate a lot of this shit because we like the music. Some bands use these images because their music is shit (britney), but i expect more from a band like Velvet Revolver whose music speaks for itself.

Well, that's the problem isnt it?  It speaks volumes about women.  I'll let Eminem say it for me:

Feminist women love Eminem
"Slim Shady, I'm sick of him
Look at him, walkin around grabbin his you-know-what
Flippin the you-know-who," "Yeah, but he's so cute though!"

You'll tolerate things that you consider are degrading to women because you like the music.  What does that say about you?

You can "discuss" Matt Sorum's childish behavior all you want, but at the end of the day you'll support the band and buy their albums.

Would you like to discuss the contrast between the Duff/Scott scene and the Matt/2 chicks scene?  True male affection vs. male titillation...pretty interesting to me. 

[gypsy eyes]

But what Freya said is accurate. Most of us tolerate a lot of this shit because we like the music. Some bands use these images because their music is shit (britney), but i expect more from a band like Velvet Revolver whose music speaks for itself.

Well, that's the problem isnt it?? It speaks volumes about women.? I'll let Eminem say it for me:

Feminist women love Eminem
"Slim Shady, I'm sick of him
Look at him, walkin around grabbin his you-know-what
Flippin the you-know-who," "Yeah, but he's so cute though!"

You'll tolerate things that you consider are degrading to women because you like the music.? What does that say about you?

You can "discuss" Matt Sorum's childish behavior all you want, but at the end of the day you'll support the band and buy their albums.

very true... in a way it's sad to see how they (celebrities, not just VR or other rockstars!) can get away with almost anything

Would you like to discuss the contrast between the Duff/Scott scene and the Matt/2 chicks scene?? True male affection vs. male titillation...pretty interesting to me.?

now this is starting to get better... you can actually have an intelligent discussion about this!
though there's nothing erotic to duff and scott hugging in that alley (or so i hope )

[Freya]

You'll tolerate things that you consider are degrading to women because you like the music.  What does that say about you?

Whoa.  What's that about?  It's called being a woman in a man's world.  Maybe in your next life, you'll get some insight into that.  There is a lot of great music out there, with sexist content or videos, I'm certainly not going to boycott all of it, I'm capable enough to take what I want from the music, thank you.  And here's a tip, don't take advice about women from Eminem.  Serious mommy issues. 

Would you like to discuss the contrast between the Duff/Scott scene and the Matt/2 chicks scene?  True male affection vs. male titillation...pretty interesting to me.

I'm not sure what you mean here.  I found it erotic.  It obviously was just meant to be an affectionate scene between friends.  But the sight of those two lean, muscled torsos hanging on each other?  Is hot.  The difference is, it was unintentional and not being done under the watchful gaze of the opposite sex for approval.   

[gypsy eyes]

would you kiss another girl to turn your bf on? i know i wouldn't! but a threesome is another thing...

I am old and married, so the answer would be no.? I think most threesomes benefit the male don't you?? I don't think Sorum would be involved in boy-boy-girl action.? lol

pffff that's a matter of preferance... i know guys who don't have a problem with a threesome with their gf and another MAN! i also know guys who get sick just thinking about it, just like there are women who get sick of the thought of having sex with another girl. So what if matt likes a threesome with two girls better than a threesome with a man and a woman? that's his right, who are we to critisise that?


and there are plenty of threesomes with two men and only one woman too! only those aren't displayed like the ones where there are two women and one man... just like you can easily find images of two girls kissing but two guys is harder to find (though you can see that more and more nowadays)
if you wanna change those stereotypes... well... good luck to you



and this is the last thing i said about the lesbian kissing thingy... i think you need to lighten up and realise that it was just a little detail, unlike the hugging between duff and scott, witch would be much more interesting to discuss... and guess what? that actually is IMPORTANT for the concept of the video too!
wanna bitch about women being exploited? join a femenist organisation, thank you, goodnight

[Mattman]

Hey, did any of you guys hear that Velvet Revolver released a new video? 

[badgirl]

But what Freya said is accurate. Most of us tolerate a lot of this shit because we like the music. Some bands use these images because their music is shit (britney), but i expect more from a band like Velvet Revolver whose music speaks for itself.

Well, that's the problem isnt it?? It speaks volumes about women.? I'll let Eminem say it for me:

Feminist women love Eminem
"Slim Shady, I'm sick of him
Look at him, walkin around grabbin his you-know-what
Flippin the you-know-who," "Yeah, but he's so cute though!"

You'll tolerate things that you consider are degrading to women because you like the music.? What does that say about you?

You can "discuss" Matt Sorum's childish behavior all you want, but at the end of the day you'll support the band and buy their albums.
Would you like to discuss the contrast between the Duff/Scott scene and the Matt/2 chicks scene?? True male affection vs. male titillation...pretty interesting to me.?

personally, i don't think one clip justifies a boycott. i will continue to buy their albums as it was not that offensive to me.
what does that say about me? are you trying to suggest that i am a hypocrit? i don't own any music from artists i find offensive. i don't find many artists offensive because i don't really listen to popular music. however, i do find michael jackson offensive and won't go near anything he attaches his name to (not like that is some great sacrifice). similarly, i find most rap music utterly and completely offensive but am fortunate because i don't find any value in it musically so i am not prompted to buy the product in the first place. i found guns n roses somewhat offensive until i read those in-depth interviews with Axl where he pours his heart and mind out and really explains his perspective. i gained a huge amount of respect for him by putting himself out there like that. moreover, he has grown a lot since appetite and, from what we have heard, since Illusions. i don't expect to be offended by him in the future. i think he has come to terms with a lot of his anger at women, and even if he hasn't, the fact that he was and is willing to explain it is good enough for me.

regarding the matt/duff scene? i don't find it that interesting so i am not going to comment on it. if you think its interesting, why don't YOU share your opinions and theories.

[D]

what the hell is goin on? i use to use launch.com all the time and now it wont fucking work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I want to see this video! it's driving me crazy!