Calling All Americans!

[Doc Emmett Brown]

Assuming the drugs were not a factor, if I felt like I could do more out there in the military, I would join.  

I can only guess that the company you work for doesnt mind your drug habits, and yet they rely on you heavily.  I presume your habit isnt serious enough to affect your work output then.  

I have 4 good friends in the USMC (Marine Corps).  One is a reservist (my roomate), and the other 3 recently returned from Iraq where they served in security patrol.  I was told by them it was a dangerous job, and they have returned significantly changed from their experience.  They lean more towards anti-war now, having seen the results up front.

We are not in a state where we must "fight or die",

Are you referring to a miltary draft?  If it ever came to that state, I think the tide of public opinion would swing heavily towards anti-war.  No one likes to see dead bodies draped in flags on tv.

and I was drug free, I'd probably join.  It's something I've seriously considered.

That's good to know.  But if we ever came to a state of "fight or die", would you give up the drugs for your country?  Carrying an M16 under the influence is unwise to say the least.  

btw, I find it amusing that you're part hippie (i.e. long hair, drugs, music tastes), but you are obviously pro-war.   So much for the 60's.  

[loretian]

I can only guess that the company you work for doesnt mind your drug habits, and yet they rely on you heavily.  I presume your habit isnt serious enough to affect your work output then.  

No, they don't mind.  My habits aren't out of control and it's really nothing major (I know how cliched that sounds to say that, but I'm not on coke or anything), but it's the truth.   The drugs do affect my personal life, but I keep that separate from my professional life.  Btw, when I say "drugs", I mean weed and alcohol, with the ocassional trip now and then.  

I have 4 good friends in the USMC (Marine Corps).  One is a reservist (my roomate), and the other 3 recently returned from Iraq where they served in security patrol.  I was told by them it was a dangerous job, and they have returned significantly changed from their experience.  They lean more towards anti-war now, having seen the results up front.

I imagine seeing the bloodshed and death of war first hand is an unnerving and sad experience.  I think everyone is anti-war, we just disagree on how to best achieve peace.

Are you referring to a miltary draft?  If it ever came to that state, I think the tide of public opinion would swing heavily towards anti-war.  No one likes to see dead bodies draped in flags on tv.

No, I just mean the "war on terror" isn't at a point where we might actually lose yet.  We've layed the groundwork and are beginning a very long and tough battle that will last a long time, and the need for enlisted men doesn't outweigh the need for people to continue running the country, and for businesses to continue operate, etc.

That's good to know.  But if we ever came to a state of "fight or die", would you give up the drugs for your country?  Carrying an M16 under the influence is unwise to say the least.  

Absolutely.  I've given up drugs for times for other, less important reasons.  When and if I get married, I'll be raising a family, and I don't want drugs or booze to be around my kids (or my wife, for that matter).

btw, I find it amusing that you're part hippie (i.e. long hair, drugs, music tastes), but you are obviously pro-war.   So much for the 60's.  

Yeah, a lot of people do.    The general hippie movement of the 60's was a reaction to the removal of humanity and compassion in the ultra-industriliast America of the time.  In that regard, I agree with a lot of their sentiment.  Their replacement, scientific naturalism, for the most part, was no better and still lacks humanity and does not account for many conditions people face on a daily basis.

I am not pro-war, I just believe we need to proactively deal with the terrorism problem.  I don't want to live in fear of being blown up every day.  The situation might not seem that bad now, but Sept. 11 did happen and it was merely a precursor and a warning for what the future could be like, if we continued on the path we were on before Sept. 11th.

[Informer4.0]

Besides I am serving my country right now Informer.  Are you?

Oh...are you in the service?

I am not in support of this war and never will be. This question was for you guys who support the war and feel it is the right thing to do. If I do not support the war, how then could this question be asked of me?

I serve my country by asking questions and helping others in need as often as I can. I dedicate my time endlessly to anybody I can help. That is how I contribute. My family has served their country in the military for years and understaning the severity of war, and is against occupation in Iraq.

What do you do? Make cold calls for Bush donations?

[Informer4.0]

Two excuses so far. Keep 'em coming.

You're not asking for a reasonable debate, you just want to be shitty.  I'll keep this in mind next time you start a thread like this, and won't bother posting.  Let me know if I'm wrong.  

No I am not asking for a debate. I am asking a question from you guys and I want an answer.

You call it shitty because you don't like what I'm asking you and it makes you uncomfortable. The dentist makes me feel shitty too, but it is necessary. Your conscious can also make you  feel shitty.

I think random had some great counter points for you and you are dodging those as well. Especially about the drug part.

[Informer4.0]

Cause Im sure most on the left are always to willing to go be peace keepers in the humanitarian efforts they always espouse.

Your laughable

BTW you did not answer the question but rather try to throw it back in my lap. You won't get off so easy. Are you in the service? You are how old? Early 20's? Why aren't you signing up to support your fellow Americans and this country right now? Guess it's ok, as long as it isn't you over there.

Instead you take pot shots at me to avoid the question. People who read this, understand that, and it does nothing but discredit you.

[loretian]

No I am not asking for a debate. I am asking a question from you guys and I want an answer.

Which I gave, which you then decided to respond in an absurd manner.  I'm sorry, but you didn't address any of my points, you just accused me of something.

You call it shitty because you don't like what I'm asking you and it makes you uncomfortable. The dentist makes me feel shitty too, but it is necessary. Your conscious can also make you  feel shitty.

That's a fine way of saying it, but I think you're the only person that takes what you have to say seriously.

I think random had some great counter points for you and you are dodging those as well. Especially about the drug part.

At this point, I'm not surprised you're even writing this.  I directly responded to everything he had to say.

Look, you obviously have your opinion and you have no interest in having some sort of discussion about it.  You could have called you thread "I believe you have to enlist in the military if you believe in the war and absolutely under no circumstances is it acceptable not to, so please respond so I can insult you about it."  It'd be a little long, but it'd be a lot more accurate.

 

I'm not gonna waste my time with this anymore.   I will happily discuss things with those have respect for other people and their opinions.

[Informer4.0]

No I am not asking for a debate. I am asking a question from you guys and I want an answer.

I'm not gonna waste my time with this anymore.   I will happily discuss things with those have respect for other people and their opinions.

This is what I expected.

Next.

[Prometheus]

wow nighttrain i didnt know they made helmets big enough for your fat head....., better yet, I didnt know they were going to assign a full reserve divsion to shovel all your shit! ....LOLOLOLOLOLOL, So I guess your joing the airforce.. I hear they are looking to buy some blimps, and ur so full of hot air you could put a nuke in orbit.



oh a firend of mine asked me to put in a little line for you oh great and wise night train



There is no terror, Cassius, in your threats;
For I am armed so strong in honesty
That they pass by me as the idle wind,
Which I respect not.

- Willie's Caesar

[Miz]

No I am not asking for a debate. I am asking a question from you guys and I want an answer.

Which I gave, which you then decided to respond in an absurd manner.  I'm sorry, but you didn't address any of my points, you just accused me of something.

So you support Bush and what he's doing.  You believe what he's doing is right.  You want to be safe.  You don't want to see another 9/11, and you would help your countries army...but weed is more important?

Ok...

[loretian]

So you support Bush and what he's doing.  You believe what he's doing is right.  You want to be safe.  You don't want to see another 9/11, and you would help your countries army...but weed is more important?

Ok...

No, like I said, I would give up all drugs, including weed and alcohol if I needed to.  I have seriously considered joining the military, but regardless of the drug testing, I don't think I would enlist.   It's not like I'd just be going off to fight a war, I'd also be leaving behind a lot of things.  If I felt the situation was so dire that I would do more good fighting rather than staying here, I would enlist.

If everyone who supports Bush enlisted in the military, we'd have a lot of problems and they wouldn't be with the military.  For many young men and women, it makes sense to enlist, but that's simply not the case for everyone.

edit: I realize you might not have read the whole thread, but when I originally stated my mind on this, I first explained why I could not, and then explained why I would not.

If I had just gotten out of high school, or just gotten out of college, looking to start my life and make a little cash, as well as develop some discipline, I would probably enlist.  This is the situation my brother faces, and that's why he's planning on enlisting next year.  This is not my situation, I am the most senior person (next to the owner) at the approx. 20 person company I work at, the whole company depends on me.  I have people that depend on me financially too.

There is an appropriate time for a person in my situation to enlist, and I don't believe now is the time.  Some people in my situation might believe otherwise, and I have a lot of respect for them, but we each have to make a decision based on our situation, there is no one blanket right or wrong for everyone in this case.

[GnRNightrain]

Oh...are you in the service?

No, right now Im working for the US Attorney.  So I am sacrificing less money to serve my country.

However, post graduation I intend to go into either the FBI or perhaps join the military.  I will most likely go where my skills fit what is needed for my country.  If thats armed combat, so be it.  If its the FBI, so be it.  

Besides, just cause your not in the military doesnt mean you cant support a war.  

Furthermore, I understand that many people disagree with the war in Iraq.  I can understand the legit grounds for doing so.  Even I recently havent been as pro-war for Iraq as you make it out in your post.  Just because I refute Michael Moore's lies and I believe that there was legit reasons to go to war doesnt necessarily mean I think the war was right.  I simply believe that Bush was acting on the information given to him, which could lead a reasonable person to believe everything that was said before the war.  In fact most democrats said it themselves.  In most of these posts I simply refute the ridiculous contentions that Bush had bad motivations, that there was no evidence of a threat to suddam.  

I am not in support of this war and never will be. This question was for you guys who support the war and feel it is the right thing to do. If I do not support the war, how then could this question be asked of me?

Again I will ask you then, what about the war in Aghan?  Were you in support of that?  Why didnt you enlist?  What about all the many humanitarian efforts and problems that you say are out there?  Why dont you enlist for those?  That is the logic we are dealing with.  You think you are making such a brilliant point, but your not.

I serve my country by asking questions and helping others in need as often as I can.

But yet you refuse to debate this stuff.  Instead you have these conspiracy theories that you are unable to reply to once refuted.

I dedicate my time endlessly to anybody I can help. That is how I contribute. My family has served their country in the military for years and understaning the severity of war, and is against occupation in Iraq.

Thats great, and I respect that!  

What do you do? Make cold calls for Bush donations?

Im not the biggest Bush fan believe it or not.  But because I defend him against your ridiculous conspiracy theories, Im making cold calls for him?  

[GnRNightrain]

Cause Im sure most on the left are always to willing to go be peace keepers in the humanitarian efforts they always espouse.

Your laughable

BTW you did not answer the question but rather try to throw it back in my lap. You won't get off so easy. Are you in the service? You are how old? Early 20's? Why aren't you signing up to support your fellow Americans and this country right now? Guess it's ok, as long as it isn't you over there.

Instead you take pot shots at me to avoid the question. People who read this, understand that, and it does nothing but discredit you.

If you were a Bush supporter after 911 which you claim, then why didnt you sign up for the military in the campaign against Afghan?

[GnRNightrain]

wow nighttrain i didnt know they made helmets big enough for your fat head....., better yet, I didnt know they were going to assign a full reserve divsion to shovel all your shit! ....LOLOLOLOLOLOL, So I guess your joing the airforce.. I hear they are looking to buy some blimps, and ur so full of hot air you could put a nuke in orbit.



oh a firend of mine asked me to put in a little line for you oh great and wise night train



There is no terror, Cassius, in your threats;
For I am armed so strong in honesty
That they pass by me as the idle wind,
Which I respect not.

- Willie's Caesar

Your post pretty much speaks for itself.

I dont see how you think Im so arrogant on this board.  I guess its just because you disagree with me.  Many disagree with me on the board, but make good points.  All you seem to do is make needless mindless attacks.  

For awhile I thought you were making some pretty good posts.  But now Im back to my original perception of you, which is that you have nothing meaningful to say.  That is why on your first post you had to rip off something from a website and post it as your own.  You cant come up with anything on your own with any kind of substance.

[Informer4.0]

Cause Im sure most on the left are always to willing to go be peace keepers in the humanitarian efforts they always espouse.

Your laughable

BTW you did not answer the question but rather try to throw it back in my lap. You won't get off so easy. Are you in the service? You are how old? Early 20's? Why aren't you signing up to support your fellow Americans and this country right now? Guess it's ok, as long as it isn't you over there.

Instead you take pot shots at me to avoid the question. People who read this, understand that, and it does nothing but discredit you.

If you were a Bush supporter after 911 which you claim, then why didnt you sign up for the military in the campaign against Afghan?

I didn't believe that was a correct move either. I supported Bush to an extent. As a citizen of the USA I supported him. Then he fucked it all up.

Still won't answer my question 'eh?

[Informer4.0]

Oh...are you in the service?

No, right now Im working for the US Attorney.  So I am sacrificing less money to serve my country.

However, post graduation I intend to go into either the FBI or perhaps join the military.  I will most likely go where my skills fit what is needed for my country.  If thats armed combat, so be it.  If its the FBI, so be it.  

Besides, just cause your not in the military doesnt mean you cant support a war.  

Furthermore, I understand that many people disagree with the war in Iraq.  I can understand the legit grounds for doing so.  Even I recently havent been as pro-war for Iraq as you make it out in your post.  Just because I refute Michael Moore's lies and I believe that there was legit reasons to go to war doesnt necessarily mean I think the war was right.  I simply believe that Bush was acting on the information given to him, which could lead a reasonable person to believe everything that was said before the war.  In fact most democrats said it themselves.  In most of these posts I simply refute the ridiculous contentions that Bush had bad motivations, that there was no evidence of a threat to suddam.  

I am not in support of this war and never will be. This question was for you guys who support the war and feel it is the right thing to do. If I do not support the war, how then could this question be asked of me?

Again I will ask you then, what about the war in Aghan?  Were you in support of that?  Why didnt you enlist?  What about all the many humanitarian efforts and problems that you say are out there?  Why dont you enlist for those?  That is the logic we are dealing with.  You think you are making such a brilliant point, but your not.

I serve my country by asking questions and helping others in need as often as I can.

But yet you refuse to debate this stuff.  Instead you have these conspiracy theories that you are unable to reply to once refuted.

I dedicate my time endlessly to anybody I can help. That is how I contribute. My family has served their country in the military for years and understaning the severity of war, and is against occupation in Iraq.

Thats great, and I respect that!  

What do you do? Make cold calls for Bush donations?

Im not the biggest Bush fan believe it or not.  But because I defend him against your ridiculous conspiracy theories, Im making cold calls for him?  

Conspiracy theories...bah...I guess you are calling the 9-11 report a fuckin' conspiracy theory then? Hell even Joe Scarborough said it was a helluva a read and very scary. My other posts are from authors who do serious homework. One is testifying at this time. What conspiracy do you speak of? Give me a break. That is all you guys can say when you run out of steam. It's just like saying "american hater."

You keep claiming I run away from your refutes. Like I've said now 3 times I don't always check back. I post shit to get people talking and asking more questions. I am not going to repeat myself, reread my posts.

I am making a good point. You guys (most not showing up for this thread I see) who have said for MONTHS that war was the answer are too chicken shit to put your money where you mouth is.

I didn't support the attack of Afghan after 9-11. It was stupid. It would be like blowing up OK after the bombing of the government building. Stupid.

The question is not for me. The question is for the young males (on this board) that are quick to judge those of us who are against the war. I want their feedback. You can try to put it back in my lap all day long. But it is still does not matter about me.

You are still avoiding the question. Just like I knew you would. At least you had some balls to come into this thread. Where are all the other pro-war guys who have been preaching for so long?

Your answer is good enough for me. To an extent. I would have looked at it with much more respect if you hadn't tried to turn it around on me. I'm obviously anti-war anyway, so why would you think a question like that would even make sense?

[Miz]

I'm not gonna get into any points other than the title of the thread, because it's late, and I've been there before with both of you.

I hadn't fully read the whole thread Loretian, I read most, but did just skim a few posts, and I obviously missed the bit where you explained about your job.  That's a perfectly good reason, as is GNRNightrains, I mean, you can't really be asked to throw away however many years of studying Law because you support the war.  When you graduate, you'll probably be of a lot more use to your country than you would be getting shot at in Iraq.

But, I know there's more than 2 people on the board who supported the war.  I know i've argued with more than you 2.  So where's the rest of them guys?

[Mr Cowbell ?]

Are you a recruiter? I have been HARESSED by recruiters threw highschool. THey will tell and promise you anything to get you to sign up.

It's kind of funny recruiters are asking you to DIE for our country yet the recruiters don't go over there and fight. Why not used disabled Veterans who could use a job to recruit... Wait that would keep people from joinging looking at Handicapped Vets.

I will be voting for Kerry and that's my anwser. My question for you Informer is are you a recruiter or whats your connection to the Armed Forces then?

[Informer4.0]

Are you a recruiter? I have been HARESSED by recruiters threw highschool. THey will tell and promise you anything to get you to sign up.

It's kind of funny recruiters are asking you to DIE for our country yet the recruiters don't go over there and fight. Why not used disabled Veterans who could use a job to recruit... Wait that would keep people from joinging looking at Handicapped Vets.

I will be voting for Kerry and that's my anwser. My question for you Informer is are you a recruiter or whats your connection to the Armed Forces then?

My family is military (both sides) but I am in no way a recruiter. Re-read my prior posts.

It is a tough sell to recruit now. I mean, you are going to see action more than likely. My friend was in the reserves with 3 kids, and he went over there. So if you join up, good chance you'll be going. I can only wonder what they are saying to try and get kids in now. The must be pretty creative.

That is a good question about vets doing the recruiting. But if they were disabled, it might not be a great selling point.

[Mr Cowbell ?]

Yes its got to be hard to recruit when you are missing a limb or in a wheelchair.

If you watch 9/11. (I'm not asking you to agree with everything Micheal says because I don't) There is a scene in which the cameraman follows around to Marine recruits in Flint, MI.

To this black kid that wants to go into music they tell him "You know Shaggy. He was in the marines, if you want to get into music the marines can help"

To another kid who wants to play basketball "You know David Robinson. he was a marine and played basketball for us and then on into the NBA, the marines can help you play basketball"

Then the recruits talk about going to the mall were the poorer kids go, because they have a better time recruiting young men from poorer households.

I had Marine, Navy, Army, and Coast Guard recruits at my high school everyday and they were the same way. They way they promise the recruits almost anything has to change. Wether you are a Dem or a Reb, or an Independent (me) I know there is a shortage of troups but you can't lie and promise young men the world.

I voted for Bush in 2000 because I thought he was the anwser. But since then the way his cabinet acts and does things displeases me. I'm not a Cheney fan, and it sickens me why Bush can't fire a single member of his cabinet for mistakes. There were huge mistakes made on Iraq and on the 9/11 and yet he hasnt changed anything.

[Skeba]

Informer... All you seem to want from people is that they answer your question, about why not go and enlist yourself since you've been so pro-war in the past. If you read the thread through, GNRNightrain has said that he himself hasn't been too happy about the war since new information has come up. What he said, was that at THAT time, when desicions had to be made, it was justified to go to war, whether the information that was given to Bush was distorted or not. As we have been proved later, it was. And not a little. In the light that we see things now, it is a whole different matter, and I don't think anyone in their right mind would go to war on such soft grounds.

About GNRNightrain's counterquestion: Why won't you go and join one of the humanitarian organisations?, was, in my mind not a way to avoid the question, but rather just to point out how ridiculous your orignal "go enlist yourself" thing was. Just like he said: You do not have to go to war to be pro-war, just as you don't have to be a part of green peace to think that pollution is wrong. They are opinions. Plus he did comment on his future plans which should've been more than enough.

Informer. I am/have always been 100% against this war, but by posting such exterme posts that can't even be taken seriously, you're really not helping anyone to change their opinions.