Fucking scalpers! (VR tickets in abundance on ebay)

[marino95]

"A double FUCK YOU to any ebay scalper reading this.    Not only are they selling the tickets at outrageous inflated prices, they are also charging between $5  and $15 for shipping.  "

Actually, most EBay scalpers list the tickets at face value.  It's the PUBLIC that drives the price up to outrageous prices.  Regular scalpers tend to post outrageous prices, though.

[Acquiesce]

I just don't understand all the whining about scalping. It's capitalism at work and is (in most states) perfectly legal. I, for one, have been a big purchaser of tickets on EBay to get EXCELLENT seats that I would have otherwise not had access to. I don't mind paying a little bit more for that. Hell, if you buy your $20 tickets from Ticketmaster they'll cost you another $10 in ticketmaster surcharges and $20 to mail them - now THAT'S robbery.

I agree it can be frustrating having to pay such high prices for tickets (which are usually too expensive in the first place - $200 for Madonna???), but to act like scalping is "immoral" or "unethical" is just sour grapes.

Ticket scalpers' greed are the reason why ticket prices keep rising. They are hurting the average fan. I've read plenty of articles on this subject. The reason why artists like Madonna charge $200 is because they see the scalpers making that much money so they decide to raise their prices so that money goes to them instead of the scalpers. While I don't necessarily like the increase in prices, I can't blame the artists for wanting that money to go to them instead of the scalpers who are just leeching off the artists and their fans.

Did you know Ticketmaster is going to start auctioning off the best tickets to concerts because of the ebay scalpers? No longer will the average fan be able get nice seats at their favorite concerts because only the wealthy will be able to afford these tickets.

What they are doing is highly unethical and I never understood why it's legal. They are screwing the musicians, their employees, the venues, and the fan. Why should I be forced to pay more for a ticket because someone is greedy when I should be able to get them for face value?

Actually, most EBay scalpers list the tickets at face value. It's the PUBLIC that drives the price up to outrageous prices. Regular scalpers tend to post outrageous prices, though.

Bullshit. Go search on ebay for Velvet Revolver Philadelphia. There's hardly any tickets even close to face value. Most of the auctions only accept the buy it now feature.

[Dizzy]

Actually, most EBay scalpers list the tickets at face value.  It's the PUBLIC that drives the price up to outrageous prices.  

You continue to demonstrate how factually challenged you are.  Did you bother to check my ebay link?  You can clearly see that the OPENING bid price for the scalpers' tickets ranges from $45-$90 plus the $5-$15 shipping charge.  The damn things cost $22 on ticketmaster, plus around $8 fees.  And I have never paid a dime for shipping on ticketmaster.  All you need to do is select the "no additional charge, you will get your tickets no less than 48 hours before the show" option and you only pay ticketmaster fees.

And whatever fees ticketmaster charges -- while that is a legitimate complaint -- are irrelevant to the discussion of scalpers.  Don't turn the tide onto ticketmaster to alleviate the scalpers of blame.

The scalpers do offer you the opportunity to go to the DC show (albeit at a higher price) - which you wouldn't have otherwise.

So should I thank them for the favor?    

And that's bullshit anyway.  If the bastards weren't BUYING copious amounts of tickets before I could buy one, I WOULD have the opportunity to go to the show because there would be tickets available!

[marino95]

First of all - that is true about opening bids on certain tickets (Philly, NY & St Louis for example).  But NOT true for DC, KC, SF, Minn and lots of other shows.  Plus - be sure you're not looking at opening bids for tickets that didn't sell - that's irrelevant since nobody bought them.  But you're definitely right about the prices on the Philly and NY tickets, which is interesting since selling tickets for more than face is ILLEGAL in PA and NY/NJ.  Simple misunderstanding.

The main reason this "debate" is going on in the GNR group is because of the VR concert situation.  What we have here is a concert that is being held at too small of a venue for the demand - at far too low a price.  Of course, I'm very happy w/ the low price b/c I was able to get VR tickets for DC at $20.  Evidently others didn't have the same luck.  If I hadn't got them, I would have bought them from someone on EBay in a SECOND.  That's life.  That's capitalism.

You don't have a constitutional right to go to a concert or sporting event at a reasonable price.  Just like you don't have a "RIGHT" to buy $.99 popcorn in a movie theater.  You will be charged what the public is willing to pay.  The EBay scalpers wouldn't exist if it weren't for the hundreds of people that are more than happy to buy these tickets at higher than face value.  Just for comparison, check out some recent auctions for Prince tickets that went well BELOW face value as the scalpers were stuck with the tickets.  This happens too.

The argument that I really don't buy is that it hurts the "TRUE FAN".  In a first-come first-served basis there is no guarantee that the "TRUE FAN" gets their tickets.  In fact, my point I was making is that maybe the "TRUE FAN" has more of an opportunity with scalpers because they value the tickets more and are willing to pay $75 a ticket for them.  (Of course, maybe this benefits the "RICH FAN" - lol)

Scalpers wouldn't exist if concerts were priced in line with public demand (see Madonna or Prince's tickets).  Scalping, while ANNOYING, is no less ethical than buying an antique table from someone that sees it as "junk" for $25 and re-selling it at an antique show for $200.  Or having a car dealer give you $2,000 for your trade-in and re-selling it for $5,000.  It's capitalism - not unethical.

By the way, I don't know how I became the "voice of scalpers" - kind of funny actually - been coming to this board for years following the adventure of Chinese Democracy and anxiously awaiting the return of Axl Rose.  (I did have 3rd row tickets for the MCI Center show - the one RIGHT after the cancellation in Philly  )

[sandman]

obviously, no one on this board has gone to business school. scalpers are doing nothing illegal (except in two or three states, scalping is totally legal).

it's a totally legal way to make some extra cash. every business out there marks up their goods 100-1,000% or more.

i also sell computer merchandise and hand trucks and choppers. i buy in bulk and take the risk that i won't be able to sell anything. but i charge more than what i paid to turn a profit. and people buy hand trucks from me for say $100 that cost me $50. but i ordered them from overseas, picked them up from the airport, stored them and shipped them. but customers are thrilled to pay the $100 for convenience.

it's called business. don't be so angry. or so cheap.

and don't hate the scalpers.....hate the people that buy from scalpers.

[marino95]

Sandman - I couldn't have said it better myself.  

[loretian]

I'm sorry guys, but that's total crap.  I'm as big of capitalist as the next guy, but legal or not, there's no way to justify ripping people off like this.

It's not the same thing as a markup in a retail - the retail provides the public with the access to the product.  Ticketmaster is already providing the public access to the product, just some assholes get there first and demand that you pay a toll to them.  They're not providing any service, they're not doing anything, except charging more for a product that's already been made accessible directly to the public.

Go on, keep trying to justify it.  There's lots of legal ways to rip people off but that doesn't mean you're not an asshole or you're not ripping people off.

[loretian]

i also sell computer merchandise and hand trucks and choppers. i buy in bulk and take the risk that i won't be able to sell anything. but i charge more than what i paid to turn a profit. and people buy hand trucks from me for say $100 that cost me $50. but i ordered them from overseas, picked them up from the airport, stored them and shipped them. but customers are thrilled to pay the $100 for convenience

That's the difference - you're giving the customer a convenience.  You're offering a service in exchange for the markup.  Scalpers do no such thing, in fact, they make it more inconvenient to actually get ahold of a ticket.

and don't hate the scalpers.....hate the people that buy from scalpers.

What?  Hate the fans who just want to go see a band?    No, I'll hate the fuckers that fuck with their chances of being able to see the band and then charge them more for the inconvenience.

[badgirl]

I'm an asshole. I just paid 300 for Madonna tickets (and not even the best seats).
What i fail to understand (and a cookie to whoever can explain this to me) is why the best seats open up the day of the concert (to a "sold out" show). Are people allowed to sell back tickets to the box office?!   Where the fuck do those tickets come from?
I had THE best seats in the house to see Guns at MSG in 02, only because the guy i went with had figured this little ditty out the day of the show. He kept going back to the box office and the tickets available became better and better until we got the best ones. Chris Rock was sitting BEHIND me.
Someone please explain.

ETA: one more thing- how do scalpers "get there first"? what the fuck do they know that we don't?

[Dizzy]

I'm sorry guys, but that's total crap.  I'm as big of capitalist as the next guy, but legal or not, there's no way to justify ripping people off like this.

It's not the same thing as a markup in a retail - the retail provides the public with the access to the product.  Ticketmaster is already providing the public access to the product, just some assholes get there first and demand that you pay a toll to them.  They're not providing any service, they're not doing anything, except charging more for a product that's already been made accessible directly to the public.

Go on, keep trying to justify it.  There's lots of legal ways to rip people off but that doesn't mean you're not an asshole or you're not ripping people off.

I fully concur.  Suppose I went into a music store and bought every single popular CD and then sold them to people in the parking lot for triple the price I paid for them?  Is it legal?  Sure it is.  Am I ripping them off by doing so?  Sure I am.  Does it make me a greedy asshole?  Sure it does.

What?  Hate the fans who just want to go see a band?    No, I'll hate the fuckers that fuck with their chances of being able to see the band and then charge them more for the inconvenience.

Right on.

I'll hate the scalpers and feel sorry for the people who support them because they can either choose to get ripped off or not go to the show.


Check this shit out....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=16122&item=2241876512&rd=1

This particular bastard has 30 tickets available, and he's selling them at $40 apiece, plus $20 S&H.  

[Acquiesce]

I can't believe you people are comparing scalping to legit business practices. The beauty about our country is that competition is encouraged. We have the right to shop around to find the find the best price. If I don't want to pay dealership prices for a used car I have the option of buying one that is for sale by the owner. However, we don't have that option when it comes to buying tickets. It's bad enough that Ticketmaster has a monopoly on the ticketing industry, but scalpers are making it harder and harder to buy a ticket at a half-way decent price. They realize we have no options so they use that to their advantage. Their greed is now causing ticket prices to continually rise because the musicians feel that they should be getting that money, which they should. Concerts used to be for anybody but now they are starting to become for the rich or for the idiots who buy something they can't afford.

I agree 100% with loretian. The scalpers are only ripping off the musicians because they are making a huge profit that rightfully belongs to the musicians.

[sandman]

thanks loretian, maybe i am a fucker, but i'm a fucker that's gonna be drinking free beers at the VR concert.

ticket brokers are a totally legitimate business. when i was in SF and needed giants tix, who did i call? a ticket broker. total convenience.

when darkness tix went on sale and i was not able to use my tricks of the trade to get tix, i just went to a ticket broker. total convenience.

[sandman]

I'm sorry guys, but that's total crap.  I'm as big of capitalist as the next guy, but legal or not, there's no way to justify ripping people off like this.

It's not the same thing as a markup in a retail - the retail provides the public with the access to the product.  Ticketmaster is already providing the public access to the product, just some assholes get there first and demand that you pay a toll to them.  They're not providing any service, they're not doing anything, except charging more for a product that's already been made accessible directly to the public.

Go on, keep trying to justify it.  There's lots of legal ways to rip people off but that doesn't mean you're not an asshole or you're not ripping people off.

I fully concur.  Suppose I went into a music store and bought every single popular CD and then sold them to people in the parking lot for triple the price I paid for them?  Is it legal?  Sure it is.  Is it capitalism?  Sure it is.  Am I ripping them off by doing so?  Sure I am.  Does it make me a greedy asshole?  Sure it does.

What?  Hate the fans who just want to go see a band?    No, I'll hate the fuckers that fuck with their chances of being able to see the band and then charge them more for the inconvenience.

Right on.

Saying "don't hate the scalpers" -- That's like saying "don't hate the drug dealers, hate the people who buy drugs."  Fuck that, I'll hate the scalpers and feel sorry for the people who support them because they can either choose to get ripped off or not go to the show.


Check this shit out....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=16122&item=2241876512&rd=1

This particular bastard has 30 tickets available, and he's selling them at $40 apiece, plus $20 S&H.  

and it's not ripping people off when the consumer has the fucking choice to buy or not buy. i paid $75 to see the darkness in philly. i think it would be ridiculous to bitch and moan and claim i got ripped off.

and your drug analogy is a bit off for obvious reasons that i won't even waste time mentioning.

and keep in mind that bands love ticket scalpers. it guarantees strong sales and creates more of a buzz. it's free marketing. and VR is in total control of ticket limits, and if they wanted limits, they would have had them.

"greed is good" (interesting quote from an awesome movie)

[Acquiesce]

sandman, I understand that's it's nice to have scalpers and brokers as an alternative if a concert is sold out, but don't you realize that they are part of the reason you weren't able to get tickets in the first place? They are cutting down your chances at getting tickets at a somewhat reasonable price and then relying on your desperation to pay their ridiculous prices. If it wasn't for them you may have gone to those events at a cheaper price.

Also, bands don't love scalpers as you say they do. Obviously, they don't mind that their tickets are selling, but they do mind the fact that scalpers are making a huge profit off of these tickets that the artists' are missing out on.

[loretian]

and it's not ripping people off when the consumer has the fucking choice to buy or not buy. i paid $75 to see the darkness in philly. i think it would be ridiculous to bitch and moan and claim i got ripped off.

Just as GirlGunner said, the point is that your scalping makes it so the consumers can't buy the tickets.  That's the problem.  It's not like you're offering something that wouldn't be unavailable to consumer normally, you're hijacking the normal process and charging a markup.

Compare it to any other standard industry - you wouldn't be able to get away with it.  The comparison to importing computing goods is not valid because you're importing goods.  Scalping is on the same level as walking into a toy store, buying all the Tickle Me Elmo dolls, and then saying only the hardcore "Sesame Street" fans are the ones willing to shell out the extra money while you sell them on the street, laughing at all the kids who can't afford your marked up price, because they're not "true fans" of Elmo and Big Bird.  Of course, if you hadn't bought all the dolls in the first place, the kids would be able to afford them and get what they wanted, at the price the creator and the retail decided the market could handle.

I don't think you guys are getting the point, and I'm sure you feel the same way about me.  I am a 100% red blooded capitalist, I believe in the free market, and the fact that it forcefully creates services and allows for markups, but this is so different.  I don't even know how to get the point across to you.

[Dizzy]

i paid $75 to see the darkness in philly. i think it would be ridiculous to bitch and moan and claim i got ripped off.

Well, you did.

and your drug analogy is a bit off for obvious reasons that i won't even waste time mentioning.

Okay, what about the other analogy I used?  I noticed you ignored that.  Here it is again.....

Suppose I went into a music store and bought every single popular CD and then sold them to people in the parking lot for triple the price I paid for them.  Is it legal?  Sure it is.  Am I ripping them off by doing so?  Sure I am.  Does it make me a greedy asshole?  Sure it does.

That's exactly what the scalpers are doing.  What is so difficult to understand about that?

"greed is good" (interesting quote from an awesome movie)

Yes, I've seen Wall Street, and the man who said that was the villain of the movie.  Just as greedy bastards are in this case.  Your implications that scalpers are doing a good service for the public are outrageous.  Just read loretion's and Girl Gunner's posts, for they've already explained why.

[marino95]

Explain to me how it's different than buying an antique at an estate sale and reselling it for more.  Explain to me how it's different from buying a used car at an auction and selling it for more.  IT IS NO DIFFERENT.  It is taking advantage of an underpriced item, that's it.  

All of us like bargains, don't we.  The only reason people are "bitching" is because they didn't get a chance to get the same bargain that others did.  Scalpers don't have any advantage over you in getting tickets - we're all in the same boat.  If you didn't get them and the scalpers did, it's either because you didn't choose to wait in line or get online when they went onsale - or just simply bad luck.

All I'm saying is - it is not WRONG or UNETHICAL - and certainly doesn't make you an asshole if you sell a ticket for a profit.  What I acknowledge that it is - is ANNOYING - agreed - but not UNETHICAL.  It's no more unethical than a jeweler marking up jewelry 500%, or popcorn in the movie theater being $5.00.

You do NOT have a right to buy tickets at a reasonable price.  Nowhere in our constitution will you see that.

[Booker Floyd]

Explain to me how it's different than buying an antique at an estate sale and reselling it for more.  Explain to me how it's different from buying a used car at an auction and selling it for more.  IT IS NO DIFFERENT.  It is taking advantage of an underpriced item, that's it.  

All of us like bargains, don't we.  The only reason people are "bitching" is because they didn't get a chance to get the same bargain that others did.  Scalpers don't have any advantage over you in getting tickets - we're all in the same boat.  If you didn't get them and the scalpers did, it's either because you didn't choose to wait in line or get online when they went onsale - or just simply bad luck.

All I'm saying is - it is not WRONG or UNETHICAL - and certainly doesn't make you an asshole if you sell a ticket for a profit.  What I acknowledge that it is - is ANNOYING - agreed - but not UNETHICAL.  It's no more unethical than a jeweler marking up jewelry 500%, or popcorn in the movie theater being $5.00.

You do NOT have a right to buy tickets at a reasonable price.  Nowhere in our constitution will you see that.

I dont know why its so hard to understand that ticket-scalping is wrong.  Because no matter how many yuppie douchebag excuses you give, the bottom-line is that the ticket buyers (the people who actually plan on attending the show) are getting ripped-off by the scalpers.  

Its really simple: If the scalpers didnt buy up a lot of the tickets, the true fans would be able to purchase them legitmately at a decent price like it is intended.  Scalpers ruin the experience by either buying out the tickets so that fans cant go, or driving up prices so that they are forced to spend ridiculous amounts of money.  That is ripping people off, and theres nothing ethical about it.  Its classless and unfair.  And Im puzzled as to how any so-called music fan can justify such greed and exploitation.

Another thing, please dont use that "Well, a true fan wouldve gotten the tickets on time" bullshit cop-out.  I attempted to tickets not 45 seconds after they went onsale online, and they were sold out.  And what about the fans who have work at 10 AM, or the kids who have school?  Now they miss out or get ripped off because of some greedy scumbag.  It really ruins what should be a good experience.  True fans can have the opportunity to enjoy a concert at a reasonable price, but its fucked-up by a few greedy people, with ultimately no interest in the product theyre buying.  And fans who get ripped-off once by buying the scalped tickets are at risk of getting ripped-off again the show is cancelled.  So not only could they get the refund they would originally get, but they lose all of that extra money spent because of the mark-up.

Those who bought from Ticketmaster arent getting a bargain, theyre getting the intended standard price from the official vendors.

Fucking yuppies...

[PhillyRiot]

I was fortunate to get VR tickets for the Philly show  after trying over 50 times on ticketmaster.com.  It looked like they let people buy 50 tickets at a time.  Minutes after the tickets were on sale, people immediatley sell them on EBAY.  It really isn't fair that someone in California with no intensions to see the show is hogging up all the tickets just to make money.  You can only hope people like that get burned and get stuck with not selling the tickets.

[sandman]

i've been called a fucker, an asshole, and a yuppie (no idea how that makes any sense) in one thread.

girlgunner - you're sadly mistaken if you think musicians raise prices because of scalpers. how does that make sense?? they set their prices ridiculously high to make as much money as possible. don't believe their BS reasons.

dizzy - your CD store scenario is a great one. basically, what you would have is CD store. how do you think every other music store started?


basically we can agree to disagree. i understand where you guys are coming from. i really do. several times i paid significantly more for tix i really wanted. i used to hate scalpers too. but instead of bitching about it, i started selling some tix to make some extra loot so i can break even.