Guns N' Roses Files Lawsuit against Greatest Hits

[pilferk]

Right, the poor, innocent label is a victim...

Bullshit.

Nobody forced them to sign a contract that allows this kind of procrastination by Axl.  Nobody forced them, if there is an "out" in the contract, to keep writing the checks.  The only one victimizing Geffen is Geffen.

Is Axl to blame for GH and the delay of CD?
Absolutely.

Is Geffen to blame for GH and the delay of CD?
Absolutely.

Let's not paint Geffen as some sort of victim in all this, eh?  It's really not their color...

[dave-gnfnr2k]

How can it be a GHs album when 5 of the songs are not even gnr songs.
They should take out the covers minus KOHD and add songs like estranged, come and civil war.

[RnT]

Mysteron: Do you think that Axl / Geffen can still work together after this GH- thing? Will the tour be canceled? Axl failed to release CD??? What is happening down there?

Who knows. What would you do if you were Axl in this situation?

well, "knowing" Axl as we do, he?ll problably say : "fuck this, I?m coming back to my playstation... Betaaaaaa!! my sandwich!!"
so, this is not a good thing ...

To a certain extent, we can't blame GEFFEN....I mean, Geffen have invested 13 million $ for 7 or 8 years now without any release of "chinese democracy".
they want their money back. that's pretty normal don't you think?

I think it?s normal... more normal is geffen gave axl 8 years, 13 millions and NOW axl let them hear CD and GEFEEN says: "OH MY FUCKING GOD AXL! WHAT ARE YOU DOING?! STOP THIS TOUR AND COME BACK TO THE STUDIO AND RE-RECORD THE ALBUM!" ...

I think Geffen is not stupid, they won?t put GREATEST HITS on stores just a few months before CHINESE DEMOCRACY to loose money when CD comes out... so, they ( GNR and GEFFEN ) aren?t talk the same "lenguage" anymore...

[Johnnyblood]

its not about feeding us fans with a poor selection.  and first of all since when is this a poor selection of songs.  I mean yes everyone loves estranged and coma but lets get serious.  you put your singles on a greatest hits album.

Okay, then why isn't It's So Easy on it? That was their very 1st single and one of their best songs. Maybe it's because the label finally gets a chance to sugarcoat this band. They edited Aint It Fun and don't even bother with ISE since they're some naughty words. Gutless.

[Mysteron]

Kudos to Geffen for winning a battle against Axl.  This, in my opion, is the first really public backlash against since that god forsaken excuse for a tour a few years back.  I was in favor of Offspring naming their album Chinese Democracy too, cuz I felt it was a public message to Axl that this is ridiculous.  So good for Geffen.  Tell Axl that while he is great and all that hub bub, millions of dollars have been spent and you're not going to take it anymore.  (You read that last line and twisted sister pops in your head doesn't it.  Or if it doesn't it's there now, yes yes??)

The public backlash has been against Geffen, not Axl. Where have you been the last few weeks  

With reference to money spent on the album, that is only part of a bigger picture. As mentioned in the Sanctuary press release, Guns n'roses have sold 80 million records worldwide, so consider how much income Universal have made from Guns n'roses over the years, then subtract from that the money spent on Chinese Democracy and other projects. You are left with a very healthy number imo

With reference to the situation as a whole, in my eyes the situation is about two factors, quality and decency. Firstly, regardless of what anyone says about them, the quality of the current CD release and recent DVD releases are not up to 2004 standards. They are poor quality items. And who is their right mind wants to be associated with poor quality. Secondly, I say where is the decency in what Geffen have done? You can argue that Guns n'roses have taken too long over their new album, but as many of you have pointed out, there are other things, less underhand things, that Geffen could have done about the situation . There is just no decency in the music industry anymore, in fact, there's very little decency is any industry anymore. So I for one appreciate it when people stand up against this and fight back, and that is all Axl is doing, in my opinion

[Bahad]

Mysteron any comments on gnr future like RIR4 (will they show up?), Europe tour is being tried to arrange. What's the situation?

[Christos AG]

I just wanna say that this package was a poor one.

No extra songs, no dvd, no nothing.

These days you go out to buy a simple new release and you get a dvd, and Geffen is trying to make us buy a cd with songs we already have (most of us more than twice) with no bonus features.

The same shit went on with the dvd's.

Not a documentary. Not a "making of".

Fuck that. Axl might have taken a loooooong time on making Chinese Democracy (and I might be a little pissed at him) but I'm with him on this one.

So is Slash and Duff. That's gotta mean something...

[Mutherfunker]

Kudos for winning a battle against Axl? You've got to be kidding.

Releasing a shitty Greatest Hits CD with errors/no booklet and other shitty DVD releases? They are the ones who have a lot to answer for. Ripping off the fans in a cheap bid to get some money out of a situation they got themselves into.

They've managed to release a sub standard product despite the opposition of three members of the band (past and present). Way to go! Woohooo!

@#$%Muther

[Eva GnRAxlRosette]

The case Courtney Love brought up regarding "You Know You're Right" contains some interesting information for our consideration regarding Geffen's dealings with thier established artists

http://www.metrokc.gov/kcsc/rulings/nirvana_1.htm

Right off the bat the contract that Courtney made with Novlesic and Grohl states that no greatest hits could be authorized without their unanimous consent...  
this would imply that there is such a thing as a record company (Geffen in both these cases) needing the band's consent to publish a GH or boxed set.

BUT when Geffen was taken over by Universal their contract was ammended to include that they HAD TO deliver to Geffen a 'boxed set'
no later than June 2001.

Also very interesting is the following"

Defendants Geffen/Universal argue that plaintiff Love's pending motion is "a purely tactical, legally meritless maneuver designed to gain leverage in her ongoing legal dispute in Los Angeles with Geffen Records . . . concerning her own musical group Hole . . ." (Universal's Brief in Opposition, at 1.) Similarly, citing the current Rolling Stone article entitled "Courtney Love Vs. the Music Biz", defendants Grohl and Novoselic urge this Court to take notice that Love's actions are taking place in the context of her desire not only to alter Hole's contract with Geffen/Universal but, as Rolling Stone states, also to "fundamentally change the relationship between record companies and artists."
It may well be that Courtney Love's actions are at their core utterly crass and selfish. Or it may be that her self-described attempts to "revolutionize the record business" are in the highest tradition of service to others which will in the end provide greater benefits for all recording artists, including the LLC, Grohl and Novoselic. It may also be that Geffen/Universal's actions are at their core utterly crass and selfish, or that they too are serving some higher idea. On the record presently before this Court, none of this matters.

Contract rights are not normally limited to those who are pure of heart. Only on rare occasions is a court called upon to examine motive, and the brief record currently presented to this Court does not provide an adequate basis for this Court to make any relevant final findings of fact or conclusions of law as to the motive(s) of any of the acting parties. The Court's decision on this motion for preliminary injunctive relief rests on fundamental contract law, and not on the histrionics of either side.

Under the section numbered "4" part "B" Paragraphs 4, 5, & 6 could be interestingly altered to read...

"While defendants wish this Court to conclude immediately that (Rose's )currently stated desire to hold back immediate issuance of (The Greatest Hits Package) is somehow wrongful, the Court cannot do so...

In addition, this Court cannot turn a blind eye to business reality. Corporations and other business entities regularly determine which contracts they will perform because they are beneficial or because they are too expensive to contest, and those which they will seek to modify or will simply breach because they have determined that breaching or modifying the contract would in the long run be advantageous to the shareholders of the corporation

There is a lot more that I found interesting regarding this case but as my post is quite long as it is I would simply encourage those who are interested in this kind of information to read it  

The court upheld her right to withold the recordings from Grohl and Novlesic..  Geffen wasn't ordered to not release it because they had no evidence that Geffen had the recordings.  In the end they were ordered to WORK IT OUT.  

I'd love to see the wording of the court's ruling yesterday.
No injunction doesn't mean they took Geffen's side.  Even if it is a breach of contract the court seems to be saying that that ITS THEIR RIGHT TO MAKE A BUSINESS DECISION TO BREACH A CONTRACTUAL AGREEMENT?

A little help here.. .anyone?

[Eazy E]

I'm happy someone mentioned that radio interview from 2002.

Axl did have a few comments about how the record company handles bands that have been around for awhile.  He gave off the impression that GN'R wasn't getting too much support from the company and they had been giving him a LOT of problems along the way.  I would think this is because they can just throw together a Good Charlotte, make a couple bucks, forget about them, and then repeat the process with another band.

I think both sides are at fault, but the record company might be the real shit disturber here.

[Buritoking]

Here's what I don't get, and perhaps Mysteron can shed some light on this for us, but probably not. Why on earth is Geffen still going ahead with this thing, when sancutary are planning CD release? Isn't this GH in response to CD not being out yet? Don't they know about it's release being planned, and don't they know it is "hidering the release of Chinese Democracy"?

[pilferk]

"No injunction doesn't mean they took Geffen's side.  Even if it is a breach of contract the court seems to be saying that that ITS THEIR RIGHT TO MAKE A BUSINESS DECISION TO BREACH A CONTRACTUAL AGREEMENT?"

No, that's not what it says.  It says businesses decide to do it, not it is there right to do it.  Anyone can breech a contract, as long as they are willing to pay the consequences.  Many times, in business, the consequences are outweighed by the benefits..ie: a breech may cost them 1 million, but could make them 10 million.  If they breech, they stand to gain 9 million bucks...and as we all know, money IS the motivating factor when dealing with big business.


The fact is, breech of contract is not a criminal offense.  Nobody goes to jail, or gets "sanctioned", in the case of a Corp.  They're just forced to pay damages.  If they're willing to do that, then they can breech any contract they want.

Again, back to slimey business practices commonly adopted by the labels.

Edit: To clarify, the courts will uphold the explicit contractual rights of a "wronged" party (ie: issue an injunction or restraining order) if the breech is material or tangible.  Violating THAT court order would be a criminal act....I just want to be clear.  The fact the judge DIDN'T find that might  indicate the contractual rights either don't exist, or are vague and subject to interpretation...or so I suspect.

[TyRod Tulip]

Just read this whole thread and there are some great posts here...maybe the best collection of posts I have read in a single thread.  

After reading the news about the Geffen win this morning I had formed an opinion...however after reading this thread my opinion has changed a bit.

I see two likely scenarios (granted that there are numerous other possibilities but I will focus on these two):

1.   This is a publicity thing to get GNR's name back in the spotlight.  The reason I think this might be a possibility is the timing of the lawsuit.  Axl has known that this GH was coming out for over a month now.  Why was the lawsuit filed after the album was released in some European contries?  The problem with this theory is....why are Slash and Duff involved?

2.   The other possibility (and the most likely) is that CD is no where near being complete.  Geffen wouldn't release a GH against Axl's wishes if they thought that CD was in the near future.  This leads me to think that the material on CD is not very good.  This is the most likely scenario.

Geffen is forced to release a subpar GH to either recoup some cash or to pressure Axl or both.  If the material of CD was worth putting out....Axl would have done so already (this is undeniable logic).  This is the most troubling thing to me because we have assumed all along that Axl would create a masterpiece....this was obviously flawed thinking on our part (maybe a fanboy/fangirl view through rose colored glasses kind of a phenomenon).

I think this thing may die now.  The material is obviously not very good, and this divide in the relationship between Axl and Geffen won't help.

I hope I am wrong.  Can anyone give me another reason why Axl hasn't released CD yet beside my stated reason of the material just not being good enough?

/Tulip

[Mutherfunker]

The material is obviously not very good

I hardly think we're in a position to make that assumption

I hope I am wrong.  Can anyone give me another reason why Axl hasn't released CD yet beside my stated reason of the material just not being good enough?

How about Axl just hasn't decide it's finished yet/good enough for his standards. We know he's a perfectionist. Geffen got tired of waiting.......

@#$%Muther

[pilferk]

TyRod,
  I couldn't possibley disagree any more with that summation.  In particular, this point:

"If the material of CD was worth putting out....Axl would have done so already (this is undeniable logic). "

I think that's fundamentally incorrect.  Now, if you'd said "If AXL thought the material of CD was worth putting out...Axl would have done so already.", I could, at least, see your point.  I think that's the crux: AXL has to think it's done.  Not us, not the label, not Bucket, or Robin, or Brain, or Tommy, or Howard the fucking Duck..Axl.  And we know, from past experience, 2 things. 1) Axl is a perfectionist, to a fault.  2) Axl has some insecurity issues.  Just because AXL wavers on the status and merit of the material doesn't mean it's not good.

As for your theory it's a "publicity" thing, again, unless both parties want to be found in Contempt of Court, using the legal system purely for publicity purposes would be one of the single worst ideas in the history of music.

I could go on, but I'll leave it at that.  I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.....

[Eva GnRAxlRosette]

money IS the motivating factor when dealing with big business.
If [a corporation] is willing [pay damages] then they can breech any contract they want.
Again, back to slimey business practices commonly adopted by the labels.

 

F.T.M.I.!!!

[R4tfink]

This is the most interesting thread i have ever read in the Guns n Roses section of this board in history.

Keep up the good work Pilferk!

Would your views on Lawyers change if you became one?

I might try to hire you if i ever do anything wrong!

[PeterCoffin]

There is just no decency in the music industry anymore, in fact, there's very little decency is any industry anymore. So I for one appreciate it when people stand up against this and fight back, and that is all Axl is doing, in my opinion

Right there, THAT is it. That is why I am for this lawsuit. Not the fact that it's against Axl's wishes, but because business ethics do not exist anymore and big business is now seriously out to screw anyone if it makes them a dollar. The fact this suit was thrown out is a slap in the face to artists, to consumers, and essentially everyone who doesn't have a higher-up job in a giant corporation.

Within the next few years, I think people are going to start realizing that the majority doesn't rule - an elite minority does. It's comprised of politicians and CEOs. And it's not good.

[R4tfink]

Within the next few years, I think people are going to start realizing that the majority doesn't rule - an elite minority does. It's comprised of politicians and CEOs. And it's not good.

Punks have believed this for years, i believe it as well!

MTV, CLear Channel, Geffen, Microsoft are all prime examples of this.

Its sickening its ruthless but unfortunely there aint a damn thing anyone can do about it..in the case even Axl Rose....well at least for the time being.

Time is going to be the big factor from here on in and it seems like forever anyway but i feel the procrastination is only going to be extended as a result of all this.

No one is to blame but indeed both parties are to be blamed, read Pilfs posts, i agree whole heartedly with all of them.

[PeterCoffin]

When I say "people are going to realize this" I mean the average person. A lot of people know of the monopolistic practices of companies and detest it, but a lot more don't.

I would normally think anyone who said this is a complete idiot, but I really think a revolution wouldn't be that bad of an idea.