Guns N' Roses Files Lawsuit against Greatest Hits

[loretian]

loretian,
  Pretty much the same answer as above, even though your question was more rhetorical.  I think GnR's best bet, in their opinion, is to fight the battle in U.S. courts, rather than in other countries.  And who knows...maybe they waited so long because there were negotiations going on with Geffen to stop the release.  Those negotiations could have been ongoing right up until the release...today in the UK...and when they failed, THEN GnR went to court.  Again, that's complete and total speculation on my part (and I don't even think that's what happened..it's just possible).  I rather suspect the timing is very deliberate, though.....

That makes sense.  I suppose if they do stop the release in the US, it won't be seen as an official release, regardless of where else it's been released.   The timing is very interesting...  You know, with Axl, Slash, Duff, and the fans seemingly against this release, Geffen won't look very good regardless of how this turns out.

[pilferk]

loretian,
  Pretty much the same answer as above, even though your question was more rhetorical.  I think GnR's best bet, in their opinion, is to fight the battle in U.S. courts, rather than in other countries.  And who knows...maybe they waited so long because there were negotiations going on with Geffen to stop the release.  Those negotiations could have been ongoing right up until the release...today in the UK...and when they failed, THEN GnR went to court.  Again, that's complete and total speculation on my part (and I don't even think that's what happened..it's just possible).  I rather suspect the timing is very deliberate, though.....

That makes sense.  I suppose if they do stop the release in the US, it won't be seen as an official release, regardless of where else it's been released.   The timing is very interesting...  You know, with Axl, Slash, Duff, and the fans seemingly against this release, Geffen won't look very good regardless of how this turns out.

And that. possibly, is another reason why this took so long: Getting Axl, Slash, and Duff (or rather, them and their lawyers) to all agree on the course of action.  They would have to have a pretty definitive legal course plotted...and getting them all on board might be trickey, considering their history.  Maybe THAT'S what took so long...

[Meanmachine22]

i remember someone saying"If GNR sues Geffen for the release of GH then Hell will break loose" Well i think we can now say ofiicially:

ALL HELL JUST BROKE LOOSE

I don't think that there is a realistic chance for us to see CD on that label if ever!!

[insupportofaxl]

Thanks Pilferk..........and on a side note, I think you should have been a lawyer.  Your posts are always informative

[Scabbie]

For god's sake, all this constant rambling about lawyers, injunctions its so fucking un-rock-and-roll if you get my drift. I mean, talking law is hardly exciting at the best of times...I just want to get some new tunes, turn my stereo up to 11 and ROCK OUT.

JUST RELEASE THE GODDAM NEW CD!! THATS THE LEAST THEY (AND I'M REFERRING TO ALL CONCERNED PARTIES) CAN DO FOR THE FANS...

ARRRGGGGHHH!!!!

[loretian]

Thanks Pilferk..........and on a side note, I think you should have been a lawyer.  Your posts are always informative

Ditto man, your posts are always appreciated.  

I am really interested to see how the general media responds to this too, given the facts we've gone over.  Usually Axl is not portrayed in a positive light.  We'll see about this time.

[pilferk]

Thanks Pilferk..........and on a side note, I think you should have been a lawyer.  Your posts are always informative

No offense to any lawyers posting, but, if I'd become an attorney, I would've had to kill myself.  Law is interesting, practicing law is frequently slimey and unseemly.  Sure, there are exceptions....but not many.  

What do you call 100 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?

A good start.

[Johnnyblood]

If we aren't getting any music, at least this whole soap opera between Axl, the old band, the new band, the label, and all of their lawyers is kind of funny to watch!

[rockTHEworld]

i wonder how much copies it will sell... at least in EUROPE and all the other countries it is released/will be released....

[pilferk]

Scabbie,
   Oh, were life really that simple.  Unfortunately for us fans, music is a business.  And where there's business, there's lawyers.  Normally, we don't hear about them, but trust me..they're there.  It just seems that GnR is more litigious than many other bands.  
 
One thing though.  While I agree the legal wrangling is very "anti- rock and roll", remember that Axl (and Slash and Duff too, in this case...though their actions might be a bit more mercenary) is doing what he thinks is best for the fans...and for the band.  

loretian,
  Again, thanks.  I think the media might be a bit more kind on the issue, considering Slash and Duff's participation.  I have a feeling Geffen may take a PR drubbing on this one..but we'll have to wait and see.

[Johnnyblood]

Thanks Pilferk..........and on a side note, I think you should have been a lawyer.  Your posts are always informative

No offense to any lawyers posting, but, if I'd become an attorney, I would've had to kill myself.  Law is interesting, practicing law is frequently slimey and unseemly.  Sure, there are exceptions....but not many.  

What do you call 100 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?

A good start.

Offense taken. My father is a lawyer.  He practices law in a small town. He's a good man. As he says, everybody hates lawyers until they need one.

[Doc Emmett Brown]

2) GH is considered a material breech of contract by the courts.  That nullifies the contract with Geffen....and all the material is split up by the courts.  Maybe Axl gets the CD masters, maybe not.  If not, CD goes in the vaults and is released in 20 years (approx).  Even if he does, Axl now has to shop for a new label, and start some of the process over again.  Now, that's a doomsday scenario, but it's certainly possible.

Pilferk - could you explain this one some more?  This is the only direct connection I've seen between GH and CD  (pissing Axl off doesnt count - that's a lame excuse in my book).  Do the CD masters belong to Axl or the record label?  I was under the impression that it was the latter.

Would the courts side with Axl on this one?  If I were a judge, I would be sympathetic to the record label for financing an expensive never-ending project, and want a way to get some cash back...  I'm sure Geffen could also argue that GH can be seen as an advert for CD.

Besides this, I imagine Sanctuary has to devote much of their Gn'R team to the lawsuit instead of planning the release.

okay, I see your point.  But I am certain Geffen would be more than happy if Sanctuary just handed over CD for immediate release instead of this lawsuit.

[pilferk]

Thanks Pilferk..........and on a side note, I think you should have been a lawyer.  Your posts are always informative

No offense to any lawyers posting, but, if I'd become an attorney, I would've had to kill myself.  Law is interesting, practicing law is frequently slimey and unseemly.  Sure, there are exceptions....but not many.  

What do you call 100 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?

A good start.

Offense taken. My father is a lawyer.  He practices law in a small town. He's a good man. As he says, everybody hates lawyers until they need one.

Like I said..there are exceptions, just not many of them.  I'm sure your father is a good man.

Oh, and let me add that your father is a bit mistaken.  Everybody hates lawyers, even when they need one.  Just hang around them when they get the bill.....

[madagas]

Pilferk, I am going to go out on a limb here and say that this is Axl's way of starting off his negotiations to leave the label. I can't imagine Geffen will be "hot" to promote Chinese under these circumstances. We also have to consider that Chinese may be the last official Geffen release and it could be the end of their contract. Thus, IF Axl has a follow-up record there may be another debate as to ownership of the "second" album. Personally, I think Axl wants out now and wants complete control of all the recordings for the Democracy sessions. He may have to pay for it but this lawsuit shows the label he will fight to the end, even if the fans are the ones ultimately screwed.  

[loretian]

okay, I see your point.  But I am certain Geffen would be more than happy if Sanctuary just handed over CD for immediate release instead of this lawsuit.

I'm sure you're right, but I bet Gn'R and it's management feel like they have the right to run the band how they see fit.  Geffen releasing a Greatest Hits without their permission is a slap in the face to that, and regardless of how much just cause you think they may have, and they have chosen to back and support Axl and his plans for many years now.  If they don't like how the band is being run, they should have dropped them or done something else, besides putting out a subpar Gn'R release.

[pilferk]

2) GH is considered a material breech of contract by the courts.  That nullifies the contract with Geffen....and all the material is split up by the courts.  Maybe Axl gets the CD masters, maybe not.  If not, CD goes in the vaults and is released in 20 years (approx).  Even if he does, Axl now has to shop for a new label, and start some of the process over again.  Now, that's a doomsday scenario, but it's certainly possible.

Pilferk - could you explain this one some more?  This is the only direct connection I've seen between GH and CD  (pissing Axl off doesnt count - that's a lame excuse in my book).  Do the CD masters belong to Axl or the record label?  I was under the impression that it was the latter.

Would the courts side with Axl on this one?  If I were a judge, I would be sympathetic to the record label for financing an expensive never-ending project, and want a way to get some cash back...  I'm sure Geffen could also argue that GH can be seen as an advert for CD.

Besides this, I imagine Sanctuary has to devote much of their Gn'R team to the lawsuit instead of planning the release.

okay, I see your point.  But I am certain Geffen would be more than happy if Sanctuary just handed over CD for immediate release instead of this lawsuit.

I would imagine the label owns the masters.  Without seeing the contract, I couldn't say for sure.  But, standard label contracts pretty much say the label owns everything generated by studio time payed for by the label....and that would include Axl's personal "studio", since he accepted an advance from the label.

As for where the courts will side...well, who knows.  And without knowing the specifics of the contract and contract language, it would tough to even speculate.  There's so many possible issues it's not even funny.  But, to address a couple you brought up:

Sympathy for the label:
The fact is, unless GnR has violated the terms of their contract, there's no such thing as "sympathy".  If their contract with Geffen allows this kind of procrastination, then Geffen can moan and cry all they want...but they signed the contract.  

Advert for CD:
Here's the kicker.  I'm sure that's what Geffen is going to claim.  The issue at hand, I think, is control over the material.  Geffen thinks they have control to use any previously released material as they see fit, as long as it's within the parameters of satisfying the contract.  "Old" GnR thinks THEY have control over ALL their old material, and that a GH album (reportedly one of the "parameters" in the contract) has to be approved by them before release.  I think that's the crux of the matter.  Depending on the language of the contract, the court will decide who's right.

Oh, and don't discount the "pissed off Axl" scenario.  It's not silly.  If their contract is, for instance, 3 albums over 10 years, with no other restrictions, and they signed it in 1998....well...."pissing off Axl" might mean we get 3 albums dropped in our laps in 2007-2008....

[Thinizzy]

I would like to hear Jarmos personal thoughts on this issue. Jarmo what do you think about the possibility of the release of cd now?
   

[pilferk]

Pilferk, I am going to go out on a limb here and say that this is Axl's way of starting off his negotiations to leave the label. I can't imagine Geffen will be "hot" to promote Chinese under these circumstances. We also have to consider that Chinese may be the last official Geffen release and it could be the end of their contract. Thus, IF Axl has a follow-up record there may be another debate as to ownership of the "second" album. Personally, I think Axl wants out now and wants complete control of all the recordings for the Democracy sessions. He may have to pay for it but this lawsuit shows the label he will fight to the end, even if the fans are the ones ultimately screwed.  

If this is Axl's way of trying to get away from the label.....it's a pretty dangerous one.  He could end up losing all the work he's done for the past few years.  And, in addition, he'd lose (not that he has now, really, as evidenced by GH's release) control of ALL the old material, for good.  That's a dangerous game to play....unless you're both reasonably confident of the outcome and completely fed up with your working environment.

As for Geffen being "hot" to promote CD..trust me..if CD is good, they could care less about the legal action that Axl/Slash/Duff are taking.  Labels are there to make money...and if they see dollar signs, all will be forgiven...IF the contract is upheld, that is.

As to the "follow up" albums, remember...the label probalby owns ALL the studio masters of anything Axl's done with the new band.  So, for a new album, if the label and the band part company, means completely new material.  Wanna take bets on how long that takes?  I suspect I'd be a geriatric by then.

As for Axl wanting all the masters, I'm sure he does. Precedent in these cases, though, isn't really on his side...which is why the game is so dangerous.  Some artists have successfully done it, but many more have gotten screwed.

And you're right...the fans are the ones who will most likely get screwed the worst by extended legal action....

[madagas]

We don't know what Axl's contract says in regards to ownership of the material. I personally doubt he has a standard industry contract. It is probably worded in a way that can be interpreted in many ways (damn lawyers..sorry Johnny but it is true for the most part). We also don't know what the label "advanced" Axl and how much Axl has put in of his own money. I think he wants out and wants out now. On a side note, it is funny how Bucket dropped the Gnr board....he obviously is not too pleased with the current Gnr situation.  

[jarmo]

I would like to hear Jarmos personal thoughts on this issue. Jarmo what do you think about the possibility of the release of cd now?
   

It'll be out. Even if it means Axl has to re-record the whole thing. I don't think he wants to let somebody else decide what he can or can't release.

I just don't think he wants to throw away all the work done so far.


/jarmo