Guns N' Roses Files Lawsuit against Greatest Hits

[Bahad]

If gnr (axl,slash,duff) sued Geffen I am sure they have smth in the contract that material belongs to them not to the company. Future it seems: there will be a break up between Gn'r and Geffen so this might delay cd for so long time.    

[pilferk]

We don't know what Axl's contract says in regards to ownership of the material. I personally doubt he has a standard industry contract. It is probably worded in a way that can be interpreted in many ways (damn lawyers..sorry Johnny but it is true for the most part). We also don't know what the label "advanced" Axl and how much Axl has put in of his own money. I think he wants out and wants out now. On a side note, it is funny how Bucket dropped the Gnr board....he obviously is not too pleased with the current Gnr situation.  

True, but let me say this: I have never, ever, ever heard of a contract where the label did not own the studio masters.  Maybe there's been one....maybe someone can point out one..but I've never heard of one.  It's considered collateral against the advance and expense of studio time.  We can reasonably assume that the label owns the masters, without evidence to the contrary.

In addition, it's true, we don't know what the studio advanced GnR...but it really doesn't matter.  ANY advance, no matter how small or large, would do.

Now, whether Axl wants out or not...I'm not even going to speculate.  I'll agree, the legal action could certainly lead t that.

[TimB]

   I have a question for people in the know. Is it at all possible that GH was a decoy for CD. The reason I think it might be possible is a couple of things people have posted over the past couple of months.
  1. The fact that Axl and Geffen were concerned about intenet piracy and CD getting leaked before it was released.
  2. The March 31 agreement that was suppost to have been made about the first GH release date.
  So would it be possible to hide the printing of CD under the veil of the GH print enough to release a handful overseas then file a suit to stop it knowing you were going to settle by Geffen droping GH and Axl releasing an already made CD.  This way you could put out generic Guns and Roses ads then a week before CD comes out  you could flood the press with CD ads. Possibly giving the intenet people a hard time to get their hands on CD.
  Just my thought to keep me from giving up all hope on ever seeing CD.

[Bahad]

I would like to hear Jarmos personal thoughts on this issue. Jarmo what do you think about the possibility of the release of cd now?
   

It'll be out. Even if it means Axl has to re-record the whole thing. I don't think he wants to let somebody else decide what he can or can't release.

I just don't think he wants to throw away all the work done so far.


/jarmo

If he's gonna re-record all stuff we gonna have to wait much more. This really aint good for cd. Hope Geffen and Axl slash duff agreed on better greatest hits (remasters,demos,live performance etc.)

[pilferk]

If gnr (axl,slash,duff) sued Geffen I am sure they have smth in the contract that material belongs to them not to the company. Future it seems: there will be a break up between Gn'r and Geffen so this might delay cd for so long time.    

Again, I think the root of the issue may be interpretation.  It's very possible (hell, probable) that the two different legal teams are interpreting the language in very different ways.  I think the BEST case scenario is that turns out to be the case...with the judge simply being used to interpret the legal language to figure out which side is right.  I HOPE the case ends up being that simple.

[loretian]

 So would it be possible to hide the printing of CD under the veil of the GH print enough to release a handful overseas then file a suit to stop it knowing you were going to settle by Geffen droping GH and Axl releasing an already made CD.  This way you could put out generic Guns and Roses ads then a week before CD comes out  you could flood the press with CD ads. Possibly giving the intenet people a hard time to get their hands on CD.

I'm not really in the know, but I'd say that's not a possibility.  If the lawsuit was to make it seem legit and all, then the question would be raised as to how they suddenly had all the Chinese Democracy packages ready to go so quickly.  Also, that'd be a pretty big undertaking and lots of people would be involved, so hiding a leak would be very hard.  Certainly a lot harder than doing a normal release and just trying to prevent a leak.

[pilferk]

  I have a question for people in the know. Is it at all possible that GH was a decoy for CD. The reason I think it might be possible is a couple of things people have posted over the past couple of months.
  1. The fact that Axl and Geffen were concerned about intenet piracy and CD getting leaked before it was released.
  2. The March 31 agreement that was suppost to have been made about the first GH release date.
  So would it be possible to hide the printing of CD under the veil of the GH print enough to release a handful overseas then file a suit to stop it knowing you were going to settle by Geffen droping GH and Axl releasing an already made CD.  This way you could put out generic Guns and Roses ads then a week before CD comes out  you could flood the press with CD ads. Possibly giving the intenet people a hard time to get their hands on CD.
  Just my thought to keep me from giving up all hope on ever seeing CD.

It's an interesting theory, but there's one issue.  The lawsuit has been filed.  The courts do not take kindly to being "duped" or used for publicity.  Were the two parties conspiring to do such a thing, they could be reprimanded by the court, and possibly fined and imprisoned (Contempt is pretty broad).

Having said that...it certainly wouldn't surprise me to find out the GH is "punishment", by the label, for GnR not meeting some label/band agreed upon release date.  But that's idle speculation on my part.

[madagas]

Wilco left Reprise with all the masters for the Yankee Hotel Foxtrot album..granted production costs were only 200,000 to 300,000. This was highly publicized.  Point is, Axl may buy the masters or be looking to negotiate for them. He could then turn around and negotiate a new contract to his liking with a new company...a three album deal where he recoups all his costs from the purchase with Geffen (plus bank some more). Geffen simply may not believe in the project and doesn't want to spend anymore money on promotion (or time dealing with Rose). Also, you have the fact that Geffen probably wrote off a majority of the costs when they folded a few years back.

[jarmo]

Slash took the second Snakepit album to Koch and got them to release it. I think Geffen let him go...

Duff didn't get his second solo album.....



/jarmo

[pilferk]

Wilco left Reprise with all the masters for the Yankee Hotel Foxtrot album..granted production costs were only 200,000 to 300,000. This was highly publicized.  Point is, Axl may buy the masters or be looking to negotiate for them. He could then turn around and negotiate a new contract to his liking with a new company...a three album deal where he recoups all his costs from the purchase with Geffen (plus bank some more). Geffen simply may not believe in the project and doesn't want to spend anymore money on promotion (or time dealing with Rose). Also, you have the fact that Geffen probably wrote off a majority of the costs when they folded a few years back.

True.  Wilco negotiated the purchase of the masters from Reprise as part of the contract settlement process..and Axl certainly could do the same....and we have no clue what the production costs, out of label pocket, were.  Axl could very well have funded a portion, or even a majority, of the recording (which would further ensnarl and lengthen the settlement process).  I would say that I HOPE the outcome would be as beneficial (from a fans standpoint) as that.  As I said, the scenario I presented was "the doomsday scenario"..as in worst case.  It could very well turn out better.  But again, I just think it's a dangerous game to play...and in the long run, even the "best case scenario", if the contract is voided or Axl tries to negotiate an out, it's going to mean a wait..and potentially a very long one.

[SINSHINE]

LOL...I was just thinking how Aerosmith's Behind the Music was negotiated to be 2 hrs. in length (the first to be ORIGINALLY that long). Jesus, if and when we ever see another rise of GN'R, I think they better negotiate for a friggin' Mini-Series when it comes time to tell their whole story  

[pilferk]

Slash took the second Snakepit album to Koch and got them to release it. I think Geffen let him go...

Duff didn't get his second solo album.....



/jarmo

From what I remember, Geffen excercised first right of refusal on the 2nd Snakepit album (as in, they heard it and said no thanks...so Slash could take it elsewhere).  Not sure about Duff's 2nd album, though.

[Scabbie]

OK Pilferk point accepted, lawyers are unavoidable, however when I first picked up - AFD (almost 13 years ago now), I liked it because it helped me escape real life. And now with a full time job and all that the last thing I want to hear about is lawyers.

I'm fully behind Axl if and when he does release it, although I hope for his sake it is worth the wait. As for my feelings on this issue, I just have a few points and one question to raise to:

- If, and I say if, CD was planned for release before Rock In Rio then why did Geffen press ahead with the Greatest Hits, against Axls best wishes (I cannot believe for a second they didn't know it pissed him off).

- If they hadn't planned on releasing CD in the near term, then Axl could have realised that agreeing a guaranteed release date would have prevented the release of GH. It worked before so why not now?

- If Axl really cares for his fans, then why (for once) doesn't he just swallow his pride and get on with releasing the album. I'm sure no one wouldn't give two shits about GH if he released CD and it was as good as everyone who has been involved makes out.

And herein lies my last question. Can Axl afford to drag this out any longer? We've heard lots of talk about how much it has cost him, so what does he lose by delaying the release? A bucketload (sorry for the pun) of cash,  a loyal fanbase, maybe the band members when their contract expires, his reputation, another couple years of his life not enjoying the status etc etc. I think this is his last opportunity to prove himself.

Oh well, back to reality..I must admit that it made me laugh to see Geffen getting bombarded with letters and e-mails...oh those poor record execs, I wander what they expected.

Finally, what would be the best is a live, televised court battle, with all of the secret details of the last few months revealed to the greater public. Kinda like LA LAW. Throw in a few hot chicks and a few guest appearances from the man himself...now I'm starting to get the whole lawyer thing! And that would be one mother fucker of a promotional campaign!

[TimB]

  A couple of things I have problem with are Why would Geffen risk all the money they have spent on CD by releasing an album that would probably sell 1/10 as much as a "bad" CD just to punish and probably piss off the loose cannon aka Axl. Secondly, Why would you wait until the GH was already released overseas to file a suit, they have known it was going to come out for months why the delay? I agree that courts don't like to be fooled around with but alot of lawsuits are filed knowing that there is no way they will ever get to court but will be settled. Also this is Axl we are talking about so anything is possible!

[pilferk]

 A couple of things I have problem with are Why would Geffen risk all the money they have spent on CD by releasing an album that would probably sell 1/10 as much as a "bad" CD just to punish and probably piss off the loose cannon aka Axl. Secondly, Why would you wait until the GH was already released overseas to file a suit, they have known it was going to come out for months why the delay? I agree that courts don't like to be fooled around with but alot of lawsuits are filed knowing that there is no way they will ever get to court but will be settled. Also this is Axl we are talking about so anything is possible!

Read back a bit further, and you'll see some of the speculation about why they "waited" for GH to be released overseas.  To sum up, US courts, I don't think, would have jurisdiction to stop the release overseas.  The US courts, however, are Axl's best chance at getting an injunction, AND, if that's really what he wants, the only courts that can comment on the validity of the contract and interpret it's language (since both parties are US entities).

And on the lawsuit front: Expecting settlement is fine, as long as you have a legitemate suit.  Conspiring between parties to file a suit, simply for publicity, wouldn't be.

[Bahad]

Blabbermouth also reported it. They got itfrom the same source.

http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=20379

[Malcolm]

Whats the Reslease date for the us and canada?

Today??

[Will]

March 23, 2004.

GN'R and Axl should release CD on Sanctuary Records, that would simplify things.

[Lineker10]

We don't know what Axl's contract says in regards to ownership of the material. I personally doubt he has a standard industry contract. It is probably worded in a way that can be interpreted in many ways (damn lawyers..sorry Johnny but it is true for the most part). We also don't know what the label "advanced" Axl and how much Axl has put in of his own money. I think he wants out and wants out now. On a side note, it is funny how Bucket dropped the Gnr board....he obviously is not too pleased with the current Gnr situation.  

True, but let me say this: I have never, ever, ever heard of a contract where the label did not own the studio masters.  Maybe there's been one....maybe someone can point out one..but I've never heard of one.  It's considered collateral against the advance and expense of studio time.  We can reasonably assume that the label owns the masters, without evidence to the contrary.

In addition, it's true, we don't know what the studio advanced GnR...but it really doesn't matter.  ANY advance, no matter how small or large, would do.

Now, whether Axl wants out or not...I'm not even going to speculate.  I'll agree, the legal action could certainly lead t that.

I think Nikki Sixx and Motley Crue got to keep and own all their masters when they left there label - thats why the re-issued them all the first time around.

[John Daniels]

what's the deal with Izzy? I guess Izzy just doesn't care anymore..