Just a thought regarding the RIR 04 cancellation

[Slipdisc]

Hold your horses!!

A situation in which Buckethead would have assisted Axl in Bullshitting the fans (=mutual agreement, on waiting to bring the news of the departure in order to be able to call off RiR) would be even less probable in my book. Buckethead would have known how this concept would leave him looking, why would he want that?

If this isn't the way I should read into your post, then please be a little more specific. Because I don't know whether the "he" you are talking about is Axl or Buck.

At the moment I can only interpret your post in the two ways I did.

-PEACE-

[ppbebe]

Hold your horses!!

A situation in which Buckethead would have assisted Axl in Bullshitting the fans (=mutual agreement, on waiting to bring the news of the departure in order to be able to call off RiR) would be even less probable in my book. Buckethead would have known how this concept would leave him looking, why would he want that?

It would be Because he's the man of fucking lofty character and sacrificed himself for the band and the music?

Only That way the departure could prevent GNR from touring without CD.
Yeah I may be overrating B's character,

If this isn't the way I should read into your post, then please be a little more specific. Because I don't know whether the "he" you are talking about is Axl or Buck.

It is.

By 'he' I meant BH and I was on about BH's press release that is in question of the subject. I said 'on topic'.

[Slipdisc]

It would be Because he's the man of fucking lofty character and sacrificed himself for the band and the music?

Nope I really can't see how that would work. Buckethead is a man of lofty character allright, but he ain't freakin' Unicef... Buckethead would choose the fans any time over Axl (rightfully, judging by the nice treatment he received from him afterwards). Him being the lofty character I know he is, was expressed by him being the first to give a clear signal of where this band was at, at that current time. He wanted to make sure to the fans that he wasn't playing games any more (= giving the word "soon" another definition). He knew CD wasn't coming anytime soon and didn't want to wait for it any longer nor did he want to give false hopes by just hanging on to the bandwagon any longer...

Besides, there really isn't anything lofty about assisting a guy in bullshitting fans.... Buckethead is all about sacrificing himself for the music (hence him letting all credit for his musicianship go to his anonymous character), but there's only that much you can do or expect from a man. Buckethead was under contract and therefore wasn't able to say a whole lot about it. The most powerful and honest statement he could make was by leaving.

-PEACE-

[ppbebe]

Buckethead would choose the fans any time over Axl. Him being the lofty character I know he is, was expressed by him being the first to give a clear signal of where this band was at, at that current time. He wanted to make sure to the fans that he wasn't playing games any more (= giving the word "soon" another definition). He knew CD wasn't coming anytime soon and didn't want to wait for it any longer nor did he want to give false hopes by just hanging on to the bandwagon any longer...

Besides, there's really isn't anything lofty about assisting a guy in bullshitting fans.... Buckethead is all about sacrificing himself for the music (hence him letting all credit for his musicianship go to his anonymous character), but there's only that much you can do or expect from a man.

-PEACE-

That's not a game or bullshit.
Yeah, To fans dissapointment he left  the band because of no CD and the band couldn't perform at RIR.

I'd rather he had sacrificed himself for the music and the band.

[Slipdisc]

That's not a game or bullshit.
Yeah, To fans dissapointment he left? the band because of no CD and the band couldn't perform at RIR.

I'd rather he had sacrificed himself for the music and the band.

Buckethead sacrifises himself for the music everytime he goes out in public and picks up the guitar (cause he only plays in character). The next time you are so judgemental about the guy while you obviously don't get his whole take on his art, please do some research. The whole character was created to let the music be the only thing that matters. The band could have performed at RiR, they didn't need Buckethead. It wouldn't have been difficult to come up with a short term solution for that one gig. And since we all know that Buck's parts probably are staying on the album anyhow he didn't manouvre GNR in a impossible position concerning the post-Bucket days...

-PEACE-

[mikegiuliana]

There was a zero percent chance of GNR performing at Rio. Mike's right, it was just a convenient excuse for them not to do it. Do you guys really think GNR had a bunch of plans, but BH leaving derailed everything? If plans had been made, we still wouldn't be waiting. GNR still could've done a concert, and an album could have been released. Its time for people to stop blaming Buckethead for everything. There were many problems before he even came into the band, and there have been problems since his departure.

Your wrong. They were gonna play and they even had other tour dates scheduled around Europe for just after the RIR show.? Stick to the facts next time instead of speculation.?

so why didn't they just play the shows anyways..?? They still to this day haven't replaced the man and the members say his parts are going to stay.. So what has changed sinc ethen when they had several months to prepare for those gigs?? In gnr history they have switched people with a lot less time in the biggest times of their playing

[ppbebe]

That's not a game or bullshit.
Yeah, To fans dissapointment he left  the band because of no CD and the band couldn't perform at RIR.

I'd rather he had sacrificed himself for the music and the band.

The next time you are so judgemental about the guy while you obviously don't get his whole take on his art, please do some research. The whole character was created to let the music be the only thing that matters. The band could have performed at RiR, they didn't need Buckethead. It wouldn't have been difficult to come up with a short term solution for that one gig. And since we all know that Buck's probably are staying on the album anyhow he didn't manouvre GNR in a impossible position concerning the post-Bucket days...

-PEACE-

Is it necessary for you to be offensive in debate?
Whatever high horse you are on, you?re not as close to BH as Axl n other Band members.
You still don't get why I say it is just let you know your argument doesn't make sense.
I mean the way BH concerns for the fans must be different than you think.

have a look. http://www.patmedia.net/marklevinson/cool/cool_illusion.html

[Slipdisc]

Is it necessary for you to be offensive in debate?
Whatever high horse you are on, you?re not as close to BH as Axl n other Band members.
You still don't get why I say it is just let you know your argument doesn't make sense.
I mean the way BH concerns for the fans must be different than you think.

have a look. http://www.patmedia.net/marklevinson/cool/cool_illusion.html

The last time I heard somebody act like like that, about what I know and don?t know on the subject Buckethead, was when I posted on this board that he had left GNR and wouldn?t perform at RiR. A couple of months before RiR when nobody (including Mysteron) believed me. At those times people like you where accusing me of the same things. Really you calling me to be on a high horse concerning what I know about Buckethead is very hypocrite, you don?t know the basics about the man (mind sound harsh, but its true).

I?m not being offensive. I?m merely pointing out that you obviously aren?t that well informed about Buckethead?s intentions with his music. Think of it what you want, but it?s my good right, especially when you make such half-baked assumptions on the man?s spin on it all. Don?t worry, I know how Buckethead concerns for the fans, you obviously don?t. When Buckethead wasn?t allowed to speak his mind on the tragedy he was witnessing at hand, the second best thing he could was leave (insert Mike?s post here, cause he?s making some very valid points). The only one here being offensive (to people?s intelligence) are you for posting that BS-link, where it?s obvious your argumentation has run dry.

-PEACE

[mikegiuliana]

We'll never know 100% what happened, but a wait like that with a man who is always performing for the fans must have been killing bh.. He might had felt like a tool and said this just isn't for me I don't want a repeat of 2002.. Fuck who knows what axl promised him in regards to when this was suppose to happen (cd, singles & touring).. The idea they were under gag order unable to tell the fans what was going on, he might have had to re do his parts several times, also having to share the lead with guitarist he is better then.. The man himself is a one man show.. I think a band of 8 is not something for BH and also axl's unreliable ways is just to much.. He might have jumped ship at the right time..

[ppbebe]

The last time I heard somebody act like like that, about what I know and don?t know on the subject Buckethead, was when I posted on this board that he had left GNR and wouldn?t perform at RiR. A couple of months before RiR when nobody (including Mysteron) believed me. At those times people like you where accusing me of the same things. Really you calling me to be on a high horse concerning what I know about Buckethead is very hypocrite, you don?t know the basics about the man (mind sound harsh, but its true).

I?m not being offensive. I?m merely pointing out that you obviously aren?t that well informed about Buckethead?s intentions with his music. Think of it what you want, but it?s my good right, especially when you make such half-baked assumptions on the man?s spin on it all. Don?t worry, I know how Buckethead concerns for the fans, you obviously don?t. When Buckethead wasn?t allowed to speak his mind on the tragedy he was witnessing at hand, the second best thing he could was leave (insert Mike?s post here, cause he?s making some very valid points). The only one here being offensive (to people?s intelligence) are you for posting that BS-link, where it?s obvious your argumentation has run dry.

-PEACE

Yeah polly Mike knows the basics about Buckethead more than I do. 
Could be I have overrated you. By being that biased against Axl, you're no better than a certain slash loving BH hater.
The link is nor way bs. I post it because you seem to be so bounded by preconceptions and hung up on your ass about whether you win or lose in the debate than how BH's truth might be. Why you know-it-alls should diss the other whose opinion is humble and different from yours is beyond me.
That way, you can turn any Discussion utterly barren as well as others stomach.

You're seeing only part of the picture.
Wear your glasses and reread the Axl's cancellation letter that I'm apparently ruining now. I suppose that He being an excellent lyric writer knew how immature he would sound for the first paragraph damn well, as he didn't say that on the spot. BH was, as He put it, 'one of their own'.
IMHO The facts that Mysteron or management denied/didn't know it then and that B didn't announce it earlier when he could but had waited for the telling moment, tell it all.

I imagine he left GNR but a part of him is still with the band and CD. Why should he have left?  He wanted the band and the music to be heard in the best form when Chinese Democracy is complete. Besides, perhaps he didn't want to hear "where is Slash" call from the audience anymore, which would have made him feel uncomfortable and unwanted. Many here say this is not GNR till it releases an album. 
That's the answer I can make to the topic question for now.

RIR may well have been a mere trifle compared with the great enterprise of completing Chinese Democracy.

[Slipdisc]

Yeah polly Mike knows the basics about Buckethead more than I do.? ?
Could be I have overrated you. By being that biased against Axl, you're no better than a certain slash loving BH hater.

Please don?t come to me with that BS. The only one here being biased about Axl are you; for failing to see the obvious truth behind somebody of whom almost every relationship he engages in, during the past decade and a half goes down the drain, with only him as a constant factor in each and every one of those relationships. You are biased for putting faith in the umpteenth time such a guy starts pointing fingers at all the others, putting himself in a victim role with the others being the bad guys. You fail to see how Axl?s characterization of Buckethead in the press-release (apart from some positive remarks to keep the door open) is so far from the characterizations of dozens and dozens of people Buckethead has worked with in the past (longer and more intense).You?re being biased for failing to see, how the fact that there?s still no CD (almost two years further down the road), Axl calling Buckethead being erratic and inconsistent behavior mainly holding up CD is really bullocks.

I?ve always made clear that I LOVE Axl the performer, but really can?t value all the decisions Axl THE PERSON has made. That?s not being biased, that being realistic. It?s says so much about you and your arguments, if from all the things I say to your replies mainly focus around calling me biased. That?s so weak, I always supported Axl and the new band 100%. The only time I started complaining about Axl was when I saw him treat Buckethead like trash (which is lying and backstabbing). I have made it perfectly clear why I see it that way. I really think that Buckethead was treated very unfair, especially when I see how Buckethead (after all that has happened) never lowered himself to the same assbackwards standards. Which only speaks more to his advantage.

The link is nor way bs. I post it because you seem to be so bounded by preconceptions and hung up on your ass about whether you win or lose in the debate than how BH's truth might be. Why you know-it-alls should diss the other whose opinion is humble and different from yours is beyond me.
That way, you can turn any Discussion utterly barren as well as others stomach.

The link is BS because it proves nothing concerning your points. It?s an easy way out of a discussion. just like you calling me offensive in that other thread. The only thing I said there is that you obviously don?t know the basics about Buck. Which is the same reason, I fiercely object to your interpretation of Buckethead?s truth here. It?s not about wanting to win or lose a debate; it?s seeing how somebody to who Axl obviously is some kind of holy man, reasoning about ?Buckethead?s truth?, where they could better invest some time in exploring ?Buckethead?s Basics?. Complain as much about me wanting to win a discussion as you like, if that?s your usual way of responding to people who try to put argumentation against every point you bring in, then that?s really sad.

You're seeing only part of the picture.
Wear your glasses and reread the Axl's cancellation letter that I'm apparently ruining now. I suppose that He being an excellent lyric writer knew how immature he would sound for the first paragraph damn well, as he didn't say that on the spot. BH was, as He put it, 'one of their own'.
IMHO The facts that Mysteron or management denied/didn't know it then and that B didn't announce it earlier when he could but had waited for the telling moment, tell it all.

Being the excellent lyric writer Axl is, the only thing I see in that whole press release is a guy telling a story that seems to serve mainly one purpose (which is the same like the countless other similar stories we?ve heard from him in the past); painting a picture in which he is the victim. It?s obvious that for the sake of credibility it?s always better to add some positive stuff to the equation. That first paragraph is probably the best evidence for the fact that the press release mainly is written to wipe Axl?s plate clean you can get. The fact that management didn?t tell it earlier is only more evidence for me that they waited for the moment in which RiR was so close, that it really seemed they were maneuvered in an impossible position by Buck. Telling it earlier would only have fuelled the arguments of those who claimed (rightfully, even in the two months they still had now) that a solution for RiR could have been found. These arguments would have been progressively stronger, the earlier the press release was sent out into the world.

Again:
Buckethead has had a very long career in which he met numerous people who (almost) without exception, talk very highly of him (Then there?s Axl). They appreciate him as an artist and even more as a person (it's all there in writing to prove it). They describe him as being very loyal and mild-mannered and wouldn't doubt a second to work on another project. Not only because of the musician, but also because of the person.Then all of the sudden he meets Axl.

Who has a reputation (since the early 90's) of scaring practically everybody away (the list is endless) who steps into his life. Unsurprisingly, now Axl talks about Buckethead like most people talk about Axl.

That first paragraph (of the press release) is so far from everything else all the people Buckethead has worked with in the past say about him. Which isn?t automatically evidence for it?s lack of credibility! But as soon as you look at who wrote the whole damn thing, the evidence starts rising. Axl paints a picture of Buckethead, most people out there would paint about Axl. Outside the GNR-community nobody would have expected that somebody would ever say such things about Buckethead, on the other hand nobody would be surprised about seeing Axl yet again pointing fingers at others. Sorry, but most evidence just speaks in favor of Buckethead. Axl is to date the only guy saying that stuff? enough said.

I imagine he left GNR but a part of him is still with the band and CD. Why should he have left?? He wanted the band and the music to be heard in the best form when Chinese Democracy is complete. Besides, perhaps he didn't want to hear "where is Slash" call from the audience anymore, which would have made him feel uncomfortable and unwanted. Many here say this is not GNR till it releases an album.?
That's the answer I can make to the topic question for now.

The music is still there because it probably is some damn fine guitar music he has laid down for them. They would be foolish to erase it, especially when they arranged the contracts in a way they simply own it anyhow. Knowing Buckethead he probably is just fine about that anyway. He always puts the music before his own needs.? He?s probably? already past the whole damn thing and glad to see his fans again, doing now what he was promised in GNR as well, but never got. Call me crazy, but people calling for the original ?ber-charismatic lead-guitarist of a band that once was the biggest in the world, is something you calculate in advance. Furthermore, having seen tons of boots and two shows in person of the new GNR I really didn?t see a whole lot of that going on. As a matter of fact, I saw more and more people obviously in admiration of Buck at concerts. Those few yelling for Slash really wouldn?t be enough reason to abandon something he obviously enjoyed a great deal (mainly in the happy first years, when Axl came out of his house a couple of times). GNR was turning into something that was totally different than the things he was promised. I know you are a lot less hard on Bucket than I am on Axl, but it's only because I and many others really think that Axl handled this very wrong. Axl wrote a press-release in which he painted a very poor picture of Buckethead, Buckethead never lowered himself to the same standards.

-PEACE-

[ppbebe]

That first paragraph is probably the best evidence for the fact that the press release mainly is written to wipe Axl?s plate clean you can get.
Again:
Buckethead has had a very long career in which he met numerous people who (almost) without exception, talk very highly of him (Then there?s Axl). They appreciate him as an artist and even more as a person (it's all there in writing to prove it). They describe him as being very loyal and mild-mannered and wouldn't doubt a second to work on another project. Not only because of the musician, but also because of the person.Then all of the sudden he meets Axl.

Who has a reputation (since the early 90's) of scaring practically everybody away (the list is endless) who steps into his life. Unsurprisingly, now Axl talks about Buckethead like most people talk about Axl.

That first paragraph (of the press release) is so far from everything else all the people Buckethead has worked with in the past say about him. Which isn?t automatically evidence for it?s lack of credibility! But as soon as you look at who wrote the whole damn thing, the evidence starts rising. Axl paints a picture of Buckethead, most people out there would paint about Axl. Outside the GNR-community nobody would have expected that somebody would ever say such things about Buckethead, on the other hand nobody would be surprised about seeing Axl yet again pointing fingers at others. Sorry, but most evidence just speaks in favor of Buckethead. Axl is to date the only guy saying that stuff? enough said.

That's what I'm saying. Is Axl dump enough not to have known how people see him and how they would read it? Hardly.
I bet He intentionally acted very 'Axl Rose' there. I for one wouldn't put too much trust in the way the rock writers portray someone.
Put Axl's name in place of BHs then you might see the whole different story.

Me Not as hard on bh as you're on Axl? Come off it for gods sake! 
Far from being hard on BH, I speak well of him, actually even better than you do. I'm, If anything, biased in favour of both A and B. Unlike you I don't see I have to take sides. Besides, I have no side.

By the way I know of BH's good rep. Otherwise I wouldn't made that supposion I wrote earlier.
And What wrong with Axl not being perfect? Trying ones best still a mortal makes mistakes, so what?

I've had enough of your blahs yet no possible answer to the topic question i.e. why BH didn't announce it till 2 months + a few days before RIR or why he kept appearing as the GNR guitarist e.g. even on a show a few days previous to that. a stuff like self promoting purpose should be of course excluded from the reasoning.
Or am I missing something?

[GnR-NOW]

This thread has really turned into an Axl v Bucket.  Im not defending either one, but as far as Buckets stance on GnR inactivity after the 02 tour and another reason why he left was CD was no where in site, however he released on of his own cd's in October of 02 right before the tour. So how would still being in the band affect what he does outside the band, examples /stinson, fortus, dizzy.  There in the band with no CD or tour insight.  So I don't believe lack of GN'R activity is a valid reason.

[ppbebe]

This thread has really turned into an Axl v Bucket. 

I don't see anyone particularly speaking ill of BH in this thread. 
Actually It was just one person that got paranoiac about the vs. thingy and went on me who sees the matter differently as if putting down one side would make the other one better, which is, I reckon, not the case with A and B.
There're more than two sides to every question.

pink gives an illusion of green. Two different colours you're seeing may be just one.
A, althought painted black, might be actually in the same colour to B.
the link I provided is very relevant to the way to look at the subject.
None is as sad as those who will not see. 

Im not defending either one, but as far as Buckets stance on GnR inactivity after the 02 tour and another reason why he left was CD was no where in site, however he released on of his own cd's in October of 02 right before the tour. So how would still being in the band affect what he does outside the band, examples /stinson, fortus, dizzy.  There in the band with no CD or tour insight.  So I don't believe lack of GN'R activity is a valid reason.

Come on! I've been giving a possible explanation that should cover this question as well this long and you don't read it?
I paraphrase it; the long and short of it, what Herbie said. ie he left because the album was not coming up then. I hope the opposite will be true.

From what Tommy has said, I gather the members are all for Axl's goals for the whole thing and understand the reason for no release yet, both of which we are yet to know.

On a side note, apparently BH had been undecided about whether he should stay or leave from an early stage. Possibly BH is more delicate than others on many fronts and can't stand negative mind fucks.
Remember the article that says Axl took him to Disneyland. Not to a booze n boobs! 

[jmapelian]

IMO, Axl's alot better off woithout a guitarist, that wears a KFC bucket on his head and Jason looking hockey mask than he is wih him

[sic.]

Who said Buckethead didn't talked about this earlier with Axl? The problem with your logic is that you take Axl's word like the gospel. Maybe Axl isn't telling the whole truth to paint a better picture of himself, concerning this situation? My point is and always will be:

"If I knew Buck was gone (6 months before RiR), Axl sure as hell did as well."

A lot of people mentioned those rumors in late '03, but then again - GNR is surrounded by rumors. You think Axl would've been spurred to action if he would've checked the Internet and learned about people saying Buckethead has left?

"in February [04] we got word from Brain that Bucket had called him and said he was back in Guns!? Apparently, according to Bucket he had been "Gone" but had turned himself around" - Axl

Axl himself pretty much acknowledges these late '03 rumors right there. He himself says he was under the impression Bucket had considered leaving, but decided to stick around. You can always debate how much truth is into this, but the fact remains Brain and Bucket are buddies, and I don't think Mantia would appreciate being named in the context which puts Bucket in a not-too-flattering light if there wouldn't be any truth to it.

Anyway, Bucket officially left 2 ? months before RIR4. What took him so long to inform the band/management if he had "quit" months before? As for "solo career" and "stagnation", the only ones in the '02 tour lineup who haven't done much outside GNR (in public, anyway) are Robin and Pittman. How many of the others have frustrated enough to leave GNR in order to accomplish these goals?

Your wrong. They were gonna play and they even had other tour dates scheduled around Europe for just after the RIR show.  Stick to the facts next time instead of speculation. 

Complete and utter BULLSHIT, the best thing you could do now; follow the advise you generously are giving to people, who clearly know more about these matters than you...  The only one speculating here are you.

Axl's a well-known bullshitter, then. "[Buckethead] was really excited to do Rio-Lisbon and a European tour." The German MTV (Rock Im Park/Am Ring, anyone?) were likely also bullshitting, when they said "a great European tour" was in the making. Axl must've learned about the tour from them, huh?

I guess the only one who didn't bullshit was Buckethead. He just flat out denied any interview requests, and refused to tell his side of the story. Just because somebody's silent doesn't mean he's telling the truth. 
 

[axlrose]

It was said that Buckethead left the band because of inactivity and inability to produce a cd.? But why would he quit the band 2 months before one of the biggest rock concerts?? I was thinking what if ... and what if he didn't quit would the show have gone on with GnR, or was it doomed no matter what? and if it had gone on would we have CD right now?

i tend to believe it would have been better than rock in rio 3 bc the band had more experience and were used to playign with each other as a band i mean take a look at how good they were in the 2002 tour before it got cancelled axl was starting to get his amazing voice again check albany or boston 2002 for some great vocal performnaces by axl

[Scabbie]

I remember the Wembley concert I was so pumped up for being cancelled due to BH's stomach illness or something (does anyone have the statement?)

I'm only guessing but maybe, just maybe, BH was used to cover for Axl in both instances.

Its a shame, because I think BH would have been a great guitarist for GNR. I haven't heard much of his work, but the solo on the first song off the latest Colonel Claypool album (Eyeball in the sky) is great.