Fucking scalpers! (VR tickets in abundance on ebay)

[jarmo]

I don't think most of those people selling are VR fans.

What happened to the idea of helping out fellow fans instead of making some money on them?

If you really need beer money that bad, maybe you should've stayed home with a couple of six packs?  



/jarmo

[Acquiesce]

girlgunner - you're sadly mistaken if you think musicians raise prices because of scalpers. how does that make sense?? they set their prices ridiculously high to make as much money as possible. don't believe their BS reasons.

I've read plenty of articles on this subject. Obviously, these artists are trying to make money. They want it to go to them instead of the scalpers. If they see the fans are willing to pay $250 to scalpers, they will raise their prices to $250 so they make that money instead. As much as I hate it, I can't say I blame them. That money deserves to go to the people performing, not a bunch of leeches.

I read a really interesting article that explained that artists and sport franchises like to keep their ticket prices low because their events will appeal to everyone. However, rising prices begin to turn off the average fan because it appears as if these events are becoming for the wealthy instead. Which, in the end hurts everyone because it's the average fan who keeps the money flowing in.

So who exactly are scalpers helping besides theirself?

[Dizzy]

Explain to me how it's different than buying an antique at an estate sale and reselling it for more.  Explain to me how it's different from buying a used car at an auction and selling it for more.  IT IS NO DIFFERENT.  

BULLSHIT.

There is a very distinct difference between buying ONE ticket and selling it for an inflated price and buying 100 tickets and selling them for inflated prices.  As I said twice before, if I bought every popular CD at the CD store and sold them for $50 apiece to people in the parking long, that WOULD make me an asshole who is RIPPING PEOPLE OFF.  Just because it is legal, and just because they don't have the "right" to buy CDs at a reasonable price, DOES NOT MEAN I AM NOT RIPPING THEM OFF!  And ripping people in ANY way off is unethical, LEGAL OR NOT!

And as a matter of fact, scalping is illegal in an indirect way.  Do you think that these big-time scalpers are paying ONE DIME of income taxes on the huge amounts of money they are making?  I doubt it very seriously.  And that is precisely why it is ludicrous and outrageous to compare them to legitimate businesses.

And that just goes to show that scalping isn't capitalism.  It's rapacious opportunism at its worst.

You do NOT have a right to buy tickets at a reasonable price.  Nowhere in our constitution will you see that.

The issue isn't whether or not we have the "right" to buy tickets from ticketmaster.  Nobody here said a word about that.  The issue is whether or not scalpers are ripping people off, which they are.  But go ahead, keep defending them as they keep ripping people off.

i've been called a fucker, an asshole, and a yuppie (no idea how that makes any sense) in one thread.

Nobody has called you anything.  We're insulting avarice-driven scalpers.  If you took offense to the comments we made about scalpers, you must have a guilty conscience about what you do with extra tickets.

girlgunner - you're sadly mistaken if you think musicians raise prices because of scalpers. how does that make sense?? they set their prices ridiculously high to make as much money as possible..

And YOU are sadly mistaken if you think artists LIKE scalpers.  You read what Duff said; he came out and said that he didn't want scalpers getting tickets before the fans.  Keep in mind that scalpers may not even be able to sell all the tickets that they buy, so that means that seats in the audience may be empty rather than having fans in them who wanted to buy them at face value.

If you took a consensus of bands, I guarantee you that the majority would not concur with scalping.  Duff McKagan is just one example.  They want their real fans in attendance without being ripped off.  They don't want leeches making huge amounts of cash off their names, which is what scalpers do.

As Jarmo said, the scalpers are not Velvet Revolver fans.  They don't give a golly goddamn about the real fans.  As I said, it is absolutely outrageous to insinuate that scalpers are doing the fans a good service by scalping.  They care about one thing: lining their pockets with cash.  They couldn't give a fuck less about VR or its fans, or any other band they leech off of.

If they want to make some "beer money", let them get themselves a real fucking job and EARN it instead of ripping people off.  That's what capitalism is.

dizzy - your CD store scenario is a great one. basically, what you would have is CD store. how do you think every other music store started?

Not by ripping people off.

basically we can agree to disagree. i understand where you guys are coming from. i really do. several times i paid significantly more for tix i really wanted. i used to hate scalpers too. but instead of bitching about it, i started selling some tix to make some extra loot so i can break even.

Ah, so two wrongs make a right, is that the idea?

[badgirl]

someone answer my questions please!!!!  

 

They are on the previous page.

[Dizzy]

someone answer my questions please!!!!

I saw your questions, badgirl, and I haven't answered them because I honestly don't know the answers.  Sorry.  

[marino95]

Its really simple: If the scalpers didnt buy up a lot of the tickets, the true fans would be able to purchase them legitmately at a decent price like it is intended.  Scalpers ruin the experience by either buying out the tickets so that fans cant go, or driving up prices so that they are forced to spend ridiculous amounts of money.  That is ripping people off, and theres nothing ethical about it.  Its classless and unfair.  And Im puzzled as to how any so-called music fan can justify such greed and exploitation.

Who's a yuppie? LOL   I understand the other side of the argument - but this is not it.  This is like complaining that IBM stock is too expensive because "everybody's been buying it up".  This makes no sense.  The basic principles of pricing in a free market system revolves around supply and demand.  If demand is very high and supply is static, prices will rise.  Period.  That is all that's happening here.  It's also why you see people like Madonna and Prince raising their ticket prices to make all the money themselves.  And check out how little some of their tix are going for on Ebay....  In fact, many VR tickets are going for less than face now (not in Philly - but in SF and KC)

[marino95]

Dizzy - you do have a few good points.  But a few points to make...

1) Buying 50 tickets is usually against the rules - and if it isn't - then that's the artist's fault.  Most shows (including VR) limit the # of tickets.  If some ticket broker is planting people in line trying to bend the rules, then THAT could possibly be unethical in my book.  But if I buy 6 tickets and use 2 and sell 4 for whatever they go for on Ebay, that's NOT.

2) The artists typically don't give a sh*t about the "real fans" coming to the show.  That's PR.  They just want a sell out, don't you think?

I do agree though that artists don't like scalpers.  The scalpers make all the money that the artist should have made if they priced their tickets right.  Of course, if they priced them too high - there are risks there too.... (see the NBA for example)

[Dizzy]

The basic principles of pricing in a free market system revolves around supply and demand.  If demand is very high and supply is static, prices will rise.  Period.  That is all that's happening here.  

NO it isn't.  Inflation (the result of supply and demand) occurs when the retailers raise prices.  NOT when people buy their stuff and resell it at outraegous prices.  If the artists raised prices for tickets, you could write it off as supply and demand.  But they aren't in this case, the scalpers are doing it, so supply and demand is NOT what is occurring here.

Another thing, please dont use that "Well, a true fan wouldve gotten the tickets on time" bullshit cop-out.  I attempted to tickets not 45 seconds after they went onsale online, and they were sold out.  And what about the fans who have work at 10 AM, or the kids who have school?  Now they miss out or get ripped off because of some greedy scumbag.  It really ruins what should be a good experience.  

Amen.  I am at work at 7:30 a.m. every weekday.  So I can't get online until I get home at 5:00 p.m.  So I don't "choose" not to get in line or online to but tickets at 10 a.m.  Some call it Bad luck?  I say fuck you.  If scalpers weren't buying tickets by the shitloads, there is a hell of a lot better chance of them being available by the time I got home.  I've never had a problem with that before.  I've bought tickets to many other shows hours and even days after they went onsale and still gotten decent seats.  Why?  Because there were ticket limits which largely prevented scalping.

[Dizzy]

Buying 50 tickets is usually against the rules - and if it isn't - then that's the artist's fault.  

That may be true, but it's irrelevant.  The artist's negligence does not justify scalping.

But if I buy 6 tickets and use 2 and sell 4 for whatever they go for on Ebay, that's NOT.

Yes it is.  You're taking four tickets away from people who could've had them at face value and making them pay thrice the amount if they want to go to the show.  And then you have the gall to state that you're doing them a good service by this!  You're ripping them off knowingly and with the flagrantly self-serving purpose of profiting from it yourself.  You're not providing any benefit to the buyers of those scalped tickets.  You are deliberately harming their chances of getting a ticket and at a decent price in the interest in your own selfish avarice.  That's the bottom line; you are harming them to benefit yourself.  And THAT is what makes it unethical.

And again, are you paying your income taxes on that dough you're raking in?  Yeah, didn't think so.  So you are breaking the law to boot.  Scalpers are commiting a crime even if scalping isn't illegal in their state.  Their crime is called TAX EVASION.  So that also makes it unethical.

And the two principles couple together makes it doubly unethical.

The artists typically don't give a shit about the "real fans" coming to the show.  That's PR.  They just want a sell out, don't you think?

No I don't think.  Some artists may not give a shit about their fans, but I think the majority of them realize (especially the guys in VR) that the fans are the reasons why they are where they are.  So I do think the artists care that their fans are being ripped off, and Duff proved it for his band by saying what he said.

But this is another irrelevant argument, because the level of an artist's concern for his/her/their fans does not justify scalping.

[marino95]

Yes it is.  You're taking four tickets away from people who could've had them at face value and making them pay thrice the amount if they want to go to the show.  And then you have the gall to state that you're doing them a good service by this!  You're ripping them off knowingly and with the flagrantly self-serving purpose of profiting from it yourself.  You're not providing any benefit to the buyers of those scalped tickets.  You are deliberately harming their chances of getting a ticket and at a decent price in the interest in your own selfish avarice.  That's the bottom line; you are harming them to benefit yourself.  And THAT is what makes it unethical.

And again, are you paying your income taxes on that dough you're raking in?  Yeah, didn't think so.  So you are breaking the law to boot.  Scalpers are commiting a crime even if scalping isn't illegal in their state.  Their crime is called TAX EVASION.  So that also makes it unethical.

Your tax evasion point is a solid one.....and is a big issue for quite a number of things sold on EBay really.  Any scalper who's not paying taxes is definitely doing something both illegal and unethical.

However - the first part of your argument is flawed.  I have never intended to imply that scalpers are do-gooders making tickets available.  

Also - and HERE IS THE BIG POINT -  I am not forcing anyone to buy my tickets for thrice the value.  In fact, every time I have sold tickets (only a handful of times by the way) I post them just below face value.  Then, the people bid them up to whatever.  Several times I've had tickets not even receive on bid and have had to relist them for 1/3 the value.  Other times, people bid them up to double the price.  Nobody HAS to buy my tickets.

If I were to offer my extra tickets at face value on EBay via "buy-it-now" with no bidding, then someone else would get them on a first-come first-served basis as well.  And if you were at work, you'd miss that too.

Look, there is nothing "fair" about a show like VR at the 9:30 Club.  The place holds 900 people and probably 15,000 want to go and would gladly pay $20 for the tickets.  If I go online with everyone else (like I did) and get 6 tickets, but don't use the extras it is assinine to think I have some type of ethical obligation to go on the HTGTH board or something and seek out a true fan who didn't get tickets and give them to him for face value.  I have a job too (a very stressful and busy one at that), and if I chose to take time away from my job and 3 small children to be online (either via the net, phone or in person) to get tickets, why SHOULDN'T I be able to sell them to someone who chose NOT to leave their job for an hour to try and score the tickets themselves.    Unfortunately, alot of times you can't even get your money back for the tickets (look at the SF VR shows on EBay) - only in RARE cases like VR, Jimmy Buffett, etc. can you make a real profit scalping.

I agree, it sucks when you DO go online and can't get tickets.  It's happened to me MANY MANY times.  And it sucks to think that people that don't like the band ate up all the tickets.  I completely agree.  But most people who buy tickets from scalpers are doing so because they A) don't want to fool with being in line or online B) didn't even realize tickets were already on sale or most likely C) they want to pay a little more money to get better seats.

I'm about done with this as it is going around and around.  Bottom line for me is this - I have NEVER missed a show or concert or sporting event that I wanted to see because of "scalpers".  I've gone online to buy tickets, waited in line overnight (for GNR/Metallica/FNM back in '92 ... ahhhhhh) and bought from scalpers - both at a discount and at a premium.  This whole thread has spawned from justifiably miffed people who waited online for VR tickets and were let down.  I understand that.  And I'm not saying that I LOVE Scalpers!!!!  All I'm saying is that it is NOT UNETHICAL.  Annoying, unfair, whatever - but no more unethical than $5 popcorn, $20 cheeseburgers at Disney World, or 300% jewelry markups.

[sandman]

marino - you're exactly right.

dizzy - i did take offense to those comments. but i don't feel the slightest bit guilty. as with any show, i buy alot of tix. i usually find enough friends to go, but when i do not, i throw the tix on e-bay so not to lose money. if people bid them up, that's on them.

there's alot of things in life that suck. one of them is scalpers. but man, you people really let the little things bother you.

[sandman]

badgirl - two tricks of the trade....

1. let's say tix go on sale at 10 am.....around 9:50, call an out of state ticketmaster where there are no hot tix going on sale (like bumblefuck, kentucky). get someone live and BS with them for a few mintues. then casually ask about the concert around 9:55. don't sound too interested but say you'll take the tix. when they tell you they're not on sale, ask them to put a hold on tix. 90% of the time they'll do it, and it's like being first in line.

2. talk to ticket brokers and build relationships with them. they have connections and get tix set aside. it sounds silly, but it works.

[Dizzy]

All I'm saying is that it is NOT UNETHICAL.

You're right, this discussion has become convoluted.  And I can tell you, you will NEVER convince me that people who deliberately purchase a plethora of tickets so that the public can't get them, and then resell them at triple the price is not unethical.  As I said, they are snatching face-value tickets from under the public's noses for one reason and one reason only, to benefit themselves.  They are deliberately, knowingly, and intentionally harming the public's chances at getting tickets at decent prices with the sole interest of fattening their pockets.  Intentionally harming others in any way to benefit yourself is unethical, pure and simple, even outside the tax evasion point.

If I go online with everyone else (like I did) and get 6 tickets, but don't use the extras it is assinine to think I have some type of ethical obligation to go on the HTGTH board or something and seek out a true fan who didn't get tickets and give them to him for face value.

It depends on your intentions.  If you intend to use 6 tickets and 4 people bow out, then I'd say it's acceptable to offer them for whatever price your customers are willing to pay.  But that is NOT the issue being debated here.  Scalpers do not care about the band and have NO intention of using all the tickets they purchase.  Their intent from the get-go is to make oodles of money by offering concert-goers tickets at a greatly inflated rate, tickets that they would've had a lot better chance to obtain were they not purchased by scalpers.

So tell me, did you intend to use all 6 tickets?  Because if you didn't, you would have no other reason to purchase them than to make money off of them.  I think your revelations that you have sold "extra tickets" on a few occasions speaks volumes.  You want to justify scalping because you don't want to admit any wrongdoing on your part even if you've only done it a few times.  And I also think that listing the tickets below face value is a cop out, because you know damn well that people are going to raise the bid price through the roof.  If you really want to offer them for less than face value, then why not give them a buy-it-now option so that the bid price will feasibly not be raised beyond face value.

And again, you can say that you're not FORCING them to bid, which is true, but the fact remains that if you hadn't bought extras to begin with, they wouldn't need to be bidding on them at all.  What brings me to....

I am not forcing anyone to buy my tickets for thrice the value.

That is irrelevant.  The fact that scalpers purchase copious amounts of tickets with the INTENTION of ripping people off is where the lack of ethics falls.

[Dizzy]

dizzy - i did take offense to those comments. but i don't feel the slightest bit guilty. as with any show, i buy alot of tix. i usually find enough friends to go, but when i do not, i throw the tix on e-bay so not to lose money. if people bid them up, that's on them.

Well as I said, there's a difference between buying tickets with the intentions of USING them, and then having people bow out, and purchasing them with the deliberate and obvious intent of ripping people off, which is what I am protesting.  But when you resell any tickets you have for whatever reason, keep in mind your state's law on increasing prices beyond face value, which has already been brought to your attention.

there's a lot of things in life that suck. one of them is scalpers. but man, you people really let the little things bother you.

A small issue to you could be a big issue to someone else, it's purely subjective.  And your opinion of the importance of this issue is entirely irrelevant anyhow.  You could apply that principle to any debate around here or anywhere else, including debates that you may get into from time to time.

[sandman]

dizzy  - i couldn't agree with you more. it's purely subjective. as is the debate regarding ticket brokers being unethical. it's subjective.

and you have the right to your opinion. for me, since it's recognized as a legal way to do business, i can't call it unethical. there's not even an abuse of the law, or a minor bending of the laws. but like i said, i see your point.

regarding what duff said.....i fucking love duff. and VR. love them. but talk is cheap. and duff is a business man. and he's a fraud. ticket limits are no minor issue. it's not something that slips through the cracks. so i believe he's lying.

here's why.....they aren't too sure how big the hype is gonna be. it would have been embarressing to play a small show in big cities and not sell the places out. so they PURPOSELY didn't set ticket limits to ensure sellouts. and not just sellouts, but FAST sellouts. so that every radio station can now talk about how VR sold out in under a minute.

[Dizzy]

here's why.....they aren't too sure how big the hype is gonna be. it would have been embarressing to play a small show in big cities and not sell the places out. so they PURPOSELY didn't set ticket limits to ensure sellouts. and not just sellouts, but FAST sellouts. so that every radio station can now talk about how VR sold out in under a minute.

That theory is an interesting and valid one, however, I don't think it applies to Duff.  While I admittedly don't know the man personally, I do know that if he's lying this time, he's been lying throughout his career.  If you read any interview with Duff, his affection for the fans really comes out.  So I don't think he would consciously consent to a no-limit system if he thought that the fans would be ripped off.  Duff has ALWAYS acted and spoken in a manner that shows he hasn't forgotten it's the fans who have put him where he is.

But I will concede to the validity of your theory, and I will also admit that I don't know for sure.