Why Chinese Democracy will be the first complete Guns album and better than AFD

[ShotgunBlues1978]

No no no no no no no.

Considering how the most succesfull, influental, critically acclaimned and appreciated album by Guns n' Roses was  very much a group effort, and very much " us together" you have to be MUCH more convincing than that, if you really wanna embark on a road of discrediting the old members in as epic proportions as you just did.

It's very cool CD is finally coming out and all, but we are still living in a real world buddy.
This is a world where Appetite for Destruction was not a solo project of Axl Rose. That's essentially what you are saying here.

"Axl was always THE VISIONARY of GNR.
Axl was always THE FORCE  behind GNR.
Axl was always what  DEFINED THE GNR."

You are describing a solo project in semi-lose meaning of the word;a "band" where everything is solely dependant of one super-ego, that collects a handfull of additional musicans around him to work for him.
You are describing a band that is just as much a band as David Bowie or Bob Dylan,for example, is a band.
Guns N' Roses was not that band.

Most bands have a leader who steers the ship.  That doesn't mean that the others didn't make significant contributions or that they were just doing what Axl told them.

It's just human nature.  You put 5, 10, or 50 people into a room and ask them to work on something, doesn't matter if we're talking business, sports teams, or bands, leaders are going to emerge.  In the context of Guns that always was and always will be Axl.  Some of you may not like it but that's what all the signs point to

It's not a coincidence that even with the old lineup, Axl is the only person with a writing credit on all of their defining songs sans Patience, which was an Izzy solo writing effort.  Some of their biggest hits were written by the whole band.  Some were written by Axl and Izzy.  Some were written by Axl alone.  But he had his hand in writing all but one of their most revered songs.  And the fact that he had to fight tooth and nail to get Slash to do songs like November Rain, Estranged and Patience kind of indicates who the person with the vision and the "big picture" view was. 

You're only talking about lyrics. The lyrics Axl wrote are half of the deal here. Slash and Izzy wrote most of the music, so don't give me this crap about it being all Axl's vision. Without Slash's riff in SCOM, that song is nothing. Without his solos in November Rain, its just a long, pointless, bloated love song. I could go on and on and on. It was always a two-way street.

That's your opinion.  But considering you're the guy who thinks Just 16 had great lyrics so I take it with a grain of salt

Axl did a ton in terms of vocal melodies, arrangements and other production elements that elevated songs beyond just writing lyrics

[ZRO]

No no no no no no no.

Considering how the most succesfull, influental, critically acclaimned and appreciated album by Guns n' Roses was  very much a group effort, and very much " us together" you have to be MUCH more convincing than that, if you really wanna embark on a road of discrediting the old members in as epic proportions as you just did.

It's very cool CD is finally coming out and all, but we are still living in a real world buddy.
This is a world where Appetite for Destruction was not a solo project of Axl Rose. That's essentially what you are saying here.

"Axl was always THE VISIONARY of GNR.
Axl was always THE FORCE  behind GNR.
Axl was always what  DEFINED THE GNR."

You are describing a solo project in semi-lose meaning of the word;a "band" where everything is solely dependant of one super-ego, that collects a handfull of additional musicans around him to work for him.
You are describing a band that is just as much a band as David Bowie or Bob Dylan,for example, is a band.
Guns N' Roses was not that band.

Most bands have a leader who steers the ship.  That doesn't mean that the others didn't make significant contributions or that they were just doing what Axl told them.

It's just human nature.  You put 5, 10, or 50 people into a room and ask them to work on something, doesn't matter if we're talking business, sports teams, or bands, leaders are going to emerge.  In the context of Guns that always was and always will be Axl.  Some of you may not like it but that's what all the signs point to

It's not a coincidence that even with the old lineup, Axl is the only person with a writing credit on all of their defining songs sans Patience, which was an Izzy solo writing effort.  Some of their biggest hits were written by the whole band.  Some were written by Axl and Izzy.  Some were written by Axl alone.  But he had his hand in writing all but one of their most revered songs.  And the fact that he had to fight tooth and nail to get Slash to do songs like November Rain, Estranged and Patience kind of indicates who the person with the vision and the "big picture" view was. 

You're only talking about lyrics. The lyrics Axl wrote are half of the deal here. Slash and Izzy wrote most of the music, so don't give me this crap about it being all Axl's vision. Without Slash's riff in SCOM, that song is nothing. Without his solos in November Rain, its just a long, pointless, bloated love song. I could go on and on and on. It was always a two-way street.

That's your opinion.  But considering you're the guy who thinks Just 16 had great lyrics so I take it with a grain of salt

Axl did a ton in terms of vocal melodies, arrangements and other production elements that elevated songs beyond just writing lyrics

Yes, it is my opinion. But I think I'm with the majority that these songs wouldn't be the same without the contributions made by the rest of the members of the band.

I don't see what Just 16 has to do with any of this. That was just a stupid random cheap shot that has nothing to do with this thread. But for the record, it is a good, fun song that has lyrics that tell a story. Not everything has to be some wannabe November Rain-esque ballad about lost love, ya know?

[Hudson]

CD will never be bigger than AFD period. We have heard most of the songs on CD by now and although they are really great by todays standards and what is being played on the radio, it is still not even in the same ballpark as AFD that has Anthems like WTTJ & PC, and sountless hits from like Brownstone, ISE, Nightrain, SCOM, RQ, etc.

CD may be the greatest record out now and for a few years, but it will never outsell AFD. Critics will hail AFD as their best work because of the success as one of the all time selling best albums. CD will be lucky if it sells 3 million copies. Lets just say it sells 5 million copies... that would be really impressive but it pales in comparisson to what AFD did. AFD is timeless album whereas CD is more contemporary and I think may sound a little gimmicky or trendy 15 years down the road. I would even argue that even if downloading did not exist I do not think CD would surpass AFD although it would do a lot better because of the anticipation for a GNR record.

[Jim Bob]

You can't compare sales of an album that comes out in 2008 to an album thats been out for more than 20 years and came out before the internet enabled people to be theives.

you can compare quality, and I do think this is shaping up to be the best album yet.. although I'll wait till I hear all the songs until I give a definitive answer here.

[Alfie Bones]

No no no no no no no.

Considering how the most succesfull, influental, critically acclaimned and appreciated album by Guns n' Roses was  very much a group effort, and very much " us together" you have to be MUCH more convincing than that, if you really wanna embark on a road of discrediting the old members in as epic proportions as you just did.

It's very cool CD is finally coming out and all, but we are still living in a real world buddy.
This is a world where Appetite for Destruction was not a solo project of Axl Rose. That's essentially what you are saying here.

"Axl was always THE VISIONARY of GNR.
Axl was always THE FORCE  behind GNR.
Axl was always what  DEFINED THE GNR."

You are describing a solo project in semi-lose meaning of the word;a "band" where everything is solely dependant of one super-ego, that collects a handfull of additional musicans around him to work for him.
You are describing a band that is just as much a band as David Bowie or Bob Dylan,for example, is a band.
Guns N' Roses was not that band.

Most bands have a leader who steers the ship.  That doesn't mean that the others didn't make significant contributions or that they were just doing what Axl told them.

It's just human nature.  You put 5, 10, or 50 people into a room and ask them to work on something, doesn't matter if we're talking business, sports teams, or bands, leaders are going to emerge.  In the context of Guns that always was and always will be Axl.  Some of you may not like it but that's what all the signs point to

It's not a coincidence that even with the old lineup, Axl is the only person with a writing credit on all of their defining songs sans Patience, which was an Izzy solo writing effort.  Some of their biggest hits were written by the whole band.  Some were written by Axl and Izzy.  Some were written by Axl alone.  But he had his hand in writing all but one of their most revered songs.  And the fact that he had to fight tooth and nail to get Slash to do songs like November Rain, Estranged and Patience kind of indicates who the person with the vision and the "big picture" view was. 

You're only talking about lyrics. The lyrics Axl wrote are half of the deal here. Slash and Izzy wrote most of the music, so don't give me this crap about it being all Axl's vision. Without Slash's riff in SCOM, that song is nothing. Without his solos in November Rain, its just a long, pointless, bloated love song. I could go on and on and on. It was always a two-way street.

That's your opinion.  But considering you're the guy who thinks Just 16 had great lyrics so I take it with a grain of salt

Axl did a ton in terms of vocal melodies, arrangements and other production elements that elevated songs beyond just writing lyrics

Yes, it is my opinion. But I think I'm with the majority that these songs wouldn't be the same without the contributions made by the rest of the members of the band.

I don't see what Just 16 has to do with any of this. That was just a stupid random cheap shot that has nothing to do with this thread. But for the record, it is a good, fun song that has lyrics that tell a story. Not everything has to be some wannabe November Rain-esque ballad about lost love, ya know?

The rest of the band definitely contributed, as the newer Gunners have done with Chinese Democracy... but as far as Slash's riff in SCOM, every Guns fan knows that he hated it and Axl had to beg and plead for him to keep it in the song.

If you'd like to see GN'R without Axl calling the shots, listen to Snakepit or Revolver. It's not very good music, though.

[The Catcher]

No no no no no no no.

Considering how the most succesfull, influental, critically acclaimned and appreciated album by Guns n' Roses was  very much a group effort, and very much " us together" you have to be MUCH more convincing than that, if you really wanna embark on a road of discrediting the old members in as epic proportions as you just did.

It's very cool CD is finally coming out and all, but we are still living in a real world buddy.
This is a world where Appetite for Destruction was not a solo project of Axl Rose. That's essentially what you are saying here.

"Axl was always THE VISIONARY of GNR.
Axl was always THE FORCE  behind GNR.
Axl was always what  DEFINED THE GNR."

You are describing a solo project in semi-lose meaning of the word;a "band" where everything is solely dependant of one super-ego, that collects a handfull of additional musicans around him to work for him.
You are describing a band that is just as much a band as David Bowie or Bob Dylan,for example, is a band.
Guns N' Roses was not that band.

Most bands have a leader who steers the ship.  That doesn't mean that the others didn't make significant contributions or that they were just doing what Axl told them.

It's just human nature.  You put 5, 10, or 50 people into a room and ask them to work on something, doesn't matter if we're talking business, sports teams, or bands, leaders are going to emerge.  In the context of Guns that always was and always will be Axl.  Some of you may not like it but that's what all the signs point to

It's not a coincidence that even with the old lineup, Axl is the only person with a writing credit on all of their defining songs sans Patience, which was an Izzy solo writing effort.  Some of their biggest hits were written by the whole band.  Some were written by Axl and Izzy.  Some were written by Axl alone.  But he had his hand in writing all but one of their most revered songs.  And the fact that he had to fight tooth and nail to get Slash to do songs like November Rain, Estranged and Patience kind of indicates who the person with the vision and the "big picture" view was. 

You're only talking about lyrics. The lyrics Axl wrote are half of the deal here. Slash and Izzy wrote most of the music, so don't give me this crap about it being all Axl's vision. Without Slash's riff in SCOM, that song is nothing. Without his solos in November Rain, its just a long, pointless, bloated love song. I could go on and on and on. It was always a two-way street.

That's your opinion.  But considering you're the guy who thinks Just 16 had great lyrics so I take it with a grain of salt

Axl did a ton in terms of vocal melodies, arrangements and other production elements that elevated songs beyond just writing lyrics

Yes, it is my opinion. But I think I'm with the majority that these songs wouldn't be the same without the contributions made by the rest of the members of the band.

I don't see what Just 16 has to do with any of this. That was just a stupid random cheap shot that has nothing to do with this thread. But for the record, it is a good, fun song that has lyrics that tell a story. Not everything has to be some wannabe November Rain-esque ballad about lost love, ya know?

The rest of the band definitely contributed, as the newer Gunners have done with Chinese Democracy... but as far as Slash's riff in SCOM, every Guns fan knows that he hated it and Axl had to beg and plead for him to keep it in the song.

If you'd like to see GN'R without Axl calling the shots, listen to Snakepit or Revolver. It's not very good music, though.

Very true indeed. Some people just don't get it though, they refuse to swallow the truth no matter how many times you shove it down their throats. People who hang on to the "It's not GN'R without Slash!" doctrine will never give Axl the credit he deserves no matter how many classics he writes and no matter how much shit Slash shoves out on album after album. I can compare it to a very stupid "friend" of mine who still, after all these years, insists that it's "I'm on the NIGHT TRAIN!" - he sings it with such vigour and passion that you can't help but smile. Yet, when I have kindly tried to point out that it's "nightrain" he refuses to listen. It's night train.
"Come on, look at the song's name"
"But the words are "I'm on the night train!"
"Look, Nightrain is a type of wine..."
"Listen to the lyrics!! It's Night Train!!"
Ok, fine, man. It's Night Train".
Sometimes it's just not worth the energy...

[IKnowWhereIAM]

Very true indeed. Some people just don't get it though, they refuse to swallow the truth no matter how many times you shove it down their throats. People who hang on to the "It's not GN'R without Slash!" doctrine will never give Axl the credit he deserves no matter how many classics he writes and no matter how much shit Slash shoves out on album after album. I can compare it to a very stupid "friend" of mine who still, after all these years, insists that it's "I'm on the NIGHT TRAIN!" - he sings it with such vigour and passion that you can't help but smile. Yet, when I have kindly tried to point out that it's "nightrain" he refuses to listen. It's night train.
"Come on, look at the song's name"
"But the words are "I'm on the night train!"
"Look, Nightrain is a type of wine..."
"Listen to the lyrics!! It's Night Train!!"
Ok, fine, man. It's Night Train".
Sometimes it's just not worth the energy...

I don't get it...it is Night Train...
http://www.bumwine.com/nighttrain.html   
I prefered Boone's Farm, because it was $1.99 and came in flavors that made your puke taste ok.

[Alfie Bones]

Very true indeed. Some people just don't get it though, they refuse to swallow the truth no matter how many times you shove it down their throats. People who hang on to the "It's not GN'R without Slash!" doctrine will never give Axl the credit he deserves no matter how many classics he writes and no matter how much shit Slash shoves out on album after album. I can compare it to a very stupid "friend" of mine who still, after all these years, insists that it's "I'm on the NIGHT TRAIN!" - he sings it with such vigour and passion that you can't help but smile. Yet, when I have kindly tried to point out that it's "nightrain" he refuses to listen. It's night train.
"Come on, look at the song's name"
"But the words are "I'm on the night train!"
"Look, Nightrain is a type of wine..."
"Listen to the lyrics!! It's Night Train!!"
Ok, fine, man. It's Night Train".
Sometimes it's just not worth the energy...

I don't get it...it is Night Train...
http://www.bumwine.com/nighttrain.html   
I prefered Boone's Farm, because it was $1.99 and came in flavors that made your puke taste ok.

You're both right, kind-of. The alcoholic brand is "Night Train", and the lyrics are "Nightrain".

From my understanding, the band didn't want to worry about royalties so they spelled it differently, but they were definitely drinking Night Train.

[ZRO]

No no no no no no no.

Considering how the most succesfull, influental, critically acclaimned and appreciated album by Guns n' Roses was  very much a group effort, and very much " us together" you have to be MUCH more convincing than that, if you really wanna embark on a road of discrediting the old members in as epic proportions as you just did.

It's very cool CD is finally coming out and all, but we are still living in a real world buddy.
This is a world where Appetite for Destruction was not a solo project of Axl Rose. That's essentially what you are saying here.

"Axl was always THE VISIONARY of GNR.
Axl was always THE FORCE  behind GNR.
Axl was always what  DEFINED THE GNR."

You are describing a solo project in semi-lose meaning of the word;a "band" where everything is solely dependant of one super-ego, that collects a handfull of additional musicans around him to work for him.
You are describing a band that is just as much a band as David Bowie or Bob Dylan,for example, is a band.
Guns N' Roses was not that band.

Most bands have a leader who steers the ship.  That doesn't mean that the others didn't make significant contributions or that they were just doing what Axl told them.

It's just human nature.  You put 5, 10, or 50 people into a room and ask them to work on something, doesn't matter if we're talking business, sports teams, or bands, leaders are going to emerge.  In the context of Guns that always was and always will be Axl.  Some of you may not like it but that's what all the signs point to

It's not a coincidence that even with the old lineup, Axl is the only person with a writing credit on all of their defining songs sans Patience, which was an Izzy solo writing effort.  Some of their biggest hits were written by the whole band.  Some were written by Axl and Izzy.  Some were written by Axl alone.  But he had his hand in writing all but one of their most revered songs.  And the fact that he had to fight tooth and nail to get Slash to do songs like November Rain, Estranged and Patience kind of indicates who the person with the vision and the "big picture" view was. 

You're only talking about lyrics. The lyrics Axl wrote are half of the deal here. Slash and Izzy wrote most of the music, so don't give me this crap about it being all Axl's vision. Without Slash's riff in SCOM, that song is nothing. Without his solos in November Rain, its just a long, pointless, bloated love song. I could go on and on and on. It was always a two-way street.

That's your opinion.  But considering you're the guy who thinks Just 16 had great lyrics so I take it with a grain of salt

Axl did a ton in terms of vocal melodies, arrangements and other production elements that elevated songs beyond just writing lyrics

Yes, it is my opinion. But I think I'm with the majority that these songs wouldn't be the same without the contributions made by the rest of the members of the band.

I don't see what Just 16 has to do with any of this. That was just a stupid random cheap shot that has nothing to do with this thread. But for the record, it is a good, fun song that has lyrics that tell a story. Not everything has to be some wannabe November Rain-esque ballad about lost love, ya know?

The rest of the band definitely contributed, as the newer Gunners have done with Chinese Democracy... but as far as Slash's riff in SCOM, every Guns fan knows that he hated it and Axl had to beg and plead for him to keep it in the song.

If you'd like to see GN'R without Axl calling the shots, listen to Snakepit or Revolver. It's not very good music, though.

And in response to that,  I think many many many people who aren't quite as enthralled with the new songs as people on GNR fan forums would say.. "If you want to hear Guns N' Roses without Slash/Izzy/Duff, listen to Chinese Democracy. It's not very good music though."

I'm in the middle. Velvet Revolver has good songs and awful songs. NuGNR has good songs and awful songs. But the only way to bring the best out of Axl and Slash/Izzy/Duff is to put them back together.

[CaughtMeInaComa]

nothing beats AFD, everyone knows that.

[IKnowWhereIAM]

nothing beats AFD, everyone knows that.

Nobody will beat Babe Ruths home run record...done by Aaron.
Nobody will beat Hank Aarons home run record...done by 'the asterisk'.

Something could just as well come along to surpass AFD (hopefully in 17 days), but its run as the greatest rock album of all time has been impressive.

Huh - I just realized an ironic point...it took technological enhancement (steroids) to beat Aaron...maybe Axl is onto something with his 'pro-tools'.

[Alfie Bones]

And in response to that,  I think many many many people who aren't quite as enthralled with the new songs as people on GNR fan forums would say.. "If you want to hear Guns N' Roses without Slash/Izzy/Duff, listen to Chinese Democracy. It's not very good music though."

I'm in the middle. Velvet Revolver has good songs and awful songs. NuGNR has good songs and awful songs. But the only way to bring the best out of Axl and Slash/Izzy/Duff is to put them back together.

Name one "awful" song that GNR has put out since the 2001 tour?

I can name entire albums from Velvet Revolver that I didn't enjoy whatsoever.

Go listen to "NuGNR" play Paradise City on YouTube, and then listen to Velvet Revolver play it with Cypress Hill.

One is Guns N' Roses, the other is a horrible cover band.

[ZRO]

And in response to that,  I think many many many people who aren't quite as enthralled with the new songs as people on GNR fan forums would say.. "If you want to hear Guns N' Roses without Slash/Izzy/Duff, listen to Chinese Democracy. It's not very good music though."

I'm in the middle. Velvet Revolver has good songs and awful songs. NuGNR has good songs and awful songs. But the only way to bring the best out of Axl and Slash/Izzy/Duff is to put them back together.

Name one "awful" song that GNR has put out since the 2001 tour?

I can name entire albums from Velvet Revolver that I didn't enjoy whatsoever.

Go listen to "NuGNR" play Paradise City on YouTube, and then listen to Velvet Revolver play it with Cypress Hill.

One is Guns N' Roses, the other is a horrible cover band.

We're getting into semantics now. What one person thinks is awful, another person might love. There's no right or wrong answer here.

But since you asked..

Rhiad, Silkworms, IRS, and Chinese Democracy are all pretty bad to me.

[Wheres Izzy]

Axl definitately was always the one with the vision of what GnR should be and where he wanted to take it. I think in the bands output it has shown tho Axl has many influences so I don't expect everything on CD to be big opuses like "Coma" or "Estranged". Axl wrote "Shotgun Blues" too which I know gets slammed but it is a favorite of mine and basically a straight up punk song.

[wewantslash]

i just wanted to react on the TITLE: SO FUNNY
anyway i didnt even take time to read even one word in this post and oh, let me think....  i wont

[Hudson]

I listened to CD all day yesterday several times and I was very excited amd enjoyed it. Then I had to go out at night, got in my car and put AFD... and it hit me like Mike Tysons Fist to my face! I was like man CD is cool but it cannot hold AFD's jock strap even by todays standards. I don't care if Slash or Gumby played on that album it is just a masterpiece.

One of the elements that you fail to see is that AFD was Raw, Powerful, Emotional, Innovative, music created by some 18-19 year old kids that were drunk and stoned half the time. CD is a fabricated body of work orchestrated by Axl and a revolving door of handpicked top notch extremely skilled and seasoned musicians in the industry which have produced and over produced CD to achieve a so called perfection that does not exist.

On a side note for a second....I don't know if I am the only one but when I listen to CD I can't help but think that it is a soundtrack to a movie... and that is not a knock on it in anyway. I can just see a lot of these songs being put in Movies or TV shows in certain spots. I get certain visuals when listening to the music and lyrics and shit being played out on the big screen.

Some people will say CD is there favorite GNR cd and that is there opinion but the majority will always prefer AFD because it is hand down the Juggernaught that will not go down!