Child IQ Collapsing

[Axl_owns_dexter]

But seperating children because of their IQ will diminish the chance for the less bright to put their heart and soul into their academic life

Maybe true.  But on the other hand, it isn't fair to the bright students to be held back by the average and below average students.  Just think about how much more material can be covered if you have a class full of students who are eager to learn and have the chops to do it.  The lower talented kids are still getting an education, but one that suits them better.  As somebody said, some people are better at the trades, and some people are better at more knowledge based work.  Why should we struggle to fit square pegs into round holes?

We are going to start seeing a steady drop in our standard of living in about a generation.  We aren't producing the engineers, doctors, etc like we used to.  Add to that the fact that smart Chinese and Indian kids are less inclined to come to the US because of rising standards in their own economies.  In essence, if we don't adjust our education system, we will experience a lower standard of living.  At that point, everybody will be blaming everybody else for their own reasons.

[Axl_owns_dexter]

Another point:  Blaming liberals/democrats is just to easy to do on this topic.  The Democrats marriage to the teachers unions will prevent a lot of much needed changes being made to our education system.  We will all suffer as a result.  Not to say conservatives as faultless, but the teachers unions and blatant wastes of money by administrators are not helping matters.

[SLCPUNK]

Another point:  Blaming liberals/democrats is just to easy to do on this topic. 

It would be, if it were really a topic.




Edit: You take a shot at the liberals claiming they caused the decline in the education system, yet misspell a simple word. I sure love the irony in that???

[SLCPUNK]

We are going to start seeing a steady drop in our standard of living in about a generation.  We aren't producing the engineers, doctors, etc like we used to.

Based on?


 

Add to that the fact that smart Chinese and Indian kids are less inclined to come to the US because of rising standards in their own economies.

Based on?

 

In essence, if we don't adjust our education system, we will experience a lower standard of living.  At that point, everybody will be blaming everybody else for their own reasons.

Sure we will............

[journey]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2092-2014198,00.html

I think it's liberal policies that declare everyone to be a winner are the problem. Smart kids don't care about achievement because they don't get any better treatment than morons, because "everyone is equal". The dumb aren't getting dumber; the smart are being slowed down.

Why would you call a child a moron? That's very harsh!!

People aren't robots. Even if a child is very bright, he may not want to pursue a professional career, such as medicine. Maybe he wants to be a rockstar. That's the American dream--to do what makes you happy.


I like what Jamie said:

Agreed some people are better than others at certain things, but you're missing the point here, Mohammed Ali was the best boxer, Michael Jordon the best basketballer and Stephen Hawking the best quantum physicist because they busted their respective asses to be the best in their chosen field. The point is anyone could have had the opportunity to excel in those areas if they chosed to, freedom. Mohammed Ali wasn't picked from a bunch of people to be a boxer because he was tough, nor Michael Jordon because he was real tall. They had the talent. Same with education, everyone should be on a level playing field to begin with, in every area of education and those who better themselves through their own hard work will continue on to college and get all the high paying jobs whereas those who don't will fall behind, and will only have themselves to blame for not applying themselves properly in school. But seperating children because of their IQ will diminish the chance for the less bright to put their heart and soul into their academic life and leave with the best grade they can get, rather than being told from day one that they are not as smart as everyone else which will completely fuck up their confidence and self belief and leave them stranded after school.

[sandman]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2092-2014198,00.html

I think it's liberal policies that declare everyone to be a winner are the problem. Smart kids don't care about achievement because they don't get any better treatment than morons, because "everyone is equal". The dumb aren't getting dumber; the smart are being slowed down.

Why would you call a child a moron? That's very harsh!!

People aren't robots. Even if a child is very bright, he may not want to pursue a professional career, such as medicine. Maybe he wants to be a rockstar. That's the American dream--to do what makes you happy.


I like what Jamie said:

Agreed some people are better than others at certain things, but you're missing the point here, Mohammed Ali was the best boxer, Michael Jordon the best basketballer and Stephen Hawking the best quantum physicist because they busted their respective asses to be the best in their chosen field. The point is anyone could have had the opportunity to excel in those areas if they chosed to, freedom. Mohammed Ali wasn't picked from a bunch of people to be a boxer because he was tough, nor Michael Jordon because he was real tall. They had the talent. Same with education, everyone should be on a level playing field to begin with, in every area of education and those who better themselves through their own hard work will continue on to college and get all the high paying jobs whereas those who don't will fall behind, and will only have themselves to blame for not applying themselves properly in school. But seperating children because of their IQ will diminish the chance for the less bright to put their heart and soul into their academic life and leave with the best grade they can get, rather than being told from day one that they are not as smart as everyone else which will completely fuck up their confidence and self belief and leave them stranded after school.

i couldn't disagree with what jamie said more.

and i think sports is a great analogy.

Ali - he didn't get great at boxing by fighting average fighters. he fought tough competitors throughout his life and he benefitted from it.

Jordan - varsity vs. junior varsity. A team vs. B team. kids are grouped based on ability in sports throughout their lives. Jordan played Division I basketball at one of the best universities in the country. he was exposed to alot of pressure and top notch competition on a regular basis. do you think he would have become the player he was if he had gone to a community college and played against THAT level of competition?

i say no, becuase the jump from community college to the pros would have been too great.

[journey]

Yes I do think Michael Jordan could have been a great basketball player had he gone to a community college, because he had the will and determination to do so.

Some people have a superiority complex about universities. It's absurd. People can accomplish anything they put their minds to, regardless of what college they attend or how rich they are.

Do you think Axl would have been a better rockstar if he had attended Harvard?

[SLCPUNK]

Some people have a superiority complex about universities. It's absurd. People can accomplish anything they put their minds to, regardless of what college they attend or how rich they are.

That is right. Hard work and knowing HOW TO USE your money are key.

I know plenty of people making 100k plus that never finished college. I know one woman that is a RE investor that never got a HS degree but could buy and sell our ass in a NY minute.

Others I know that started at JC and now are lawyers, hold master degrees, PHDs....whatever.

[journey]

We are going to start seeing a steady drop in our standard of living in about a generation.? We aren't producing the engineers, doctors, etc like we used to.? Add to that the fact that smart Chinese and Indian kids are less inclined to come to the US because of rising standards in their own economies.? In essence, if we don't adjust our education system, we will experience a lower standard of living.

A drop in our standard of living? There's already been a drop in the standards of schools because of a lack of people skills. Kids are bringing guns to school and shooting other students.

Intelligence is important but it's not the most valuable quality in a person's character. Theodore Kaczynski is a very intelligent person, but look at what he did to people. Jeffrey Dahmer had a high IQ, but he was a serial killer. Even Adolf Hitler was supposedly a genius, but he murdered a million people. So your theory doesn't hold up. Just because a child is taught well and grows up to have a high IQ, doesn't mean that they're going to give back to society in a healthy and productive way. Character training and good people skills are just as important as intelligence.

[SLCPUNK]

We are going to start seeing a steady drop in our standard of living in about a generation.  We aren't producing the engineers, doctors, etc like we used to.  Add to that the fact that smart Chinese and Indian kids are less inclined to come to the US because of rising standards in their own economies.  In essence, if we don't adjust our education system, we will experience a lower standard of living.

A drop in our standard of living? There's already been a drop in the standards of schools because of a lack of people skills. Kids are bringing guns to school and shooting other students.

Intelligence is important but it's not the most valuable quality in a person's character. Theodore Kaczynski is a very intelligent person, but look at what he did to people. Jeffrey Dahmer had a high IQ, but he was a serial killer. Even Adolf Hitler was supposedly a genius, but he murdered a million people. So your theory doesn't hold up. Just because a child is taught well and grows up to have a high IQ, doesn't mean that they're going to give back to society in a healthy and productive way. Character training and good people skills are just as important as intelligence.

Very nice...............

[sandman]

Yes I do think Michael Jordan could have been a great basketball player had he gone to a community college, because he had the will and determination to do so.

Some people have a superiority complex about universities. It's absurd. People can accomplish anything they put their minds to, regardless of what college they attend or how rich they are.

Do you think Axl would have been a better rockstar if he had attended Harvard?

you totally missed my point. it's not the fact that he went to a university, it's the fact that he played against the top talent in america.

let me use a baseball analogy....what's more beneficial to a 20-year-old baseball player hoping to make it in the big leagues....

option A - playing baseball with guys in the neighborhood everyday

option B - playing in the minor leagues against the best players out there

for me, the answer is obvious.

and if axl had studied music/singing at an institution, maybe he would have learned to protect his voice a little better. 

[journey]

you totally missed my point. it's not the fact that he went to a university, it's the fact that he played against the top talent in america.

I know what you're saying now. I just took offense to "THAT level" in reference to community colleges.

But you're right about learning from skilled players. If I'm not mistaken, Kobe Bryant went straight to the pros out of High School. I've been told that he didn't do so well during his first few years as a professional basketball player. He was great on a high school level, but somewhat mediocre compared to the pros. He learned from the other players who had gone to college and had lots of training.

[SLCPUNK]

The Japanese separate kids at 5th grade or so, whatever their equivalent is. At about that age, one can see if the child is intelligent or a future turnip picker. It works for them. Crime is low, their economy is strong, and science is respected and honored. Why can't we understand that some people are happier doing manual labor?

Spoken like somebody born with a plastic spoon in his mouth...........

[sandman]

you totally missed my point. it's not the fact that he went to a university, it's the fact that he played against the top talent in america.

I know what you're saying now. I just took offense to "THAT level" in reference to community colleges.

But you're right about learning from skilled players. If I'm not mistaken, Kobe Bryant went straight to the pros out of High School. I've been told that he didn't do so well during his first few years as a professional basketball player. He was great on a high school level, but somewhat mediocre compared to the pros. He learned from the other players who had gone to college and had lots of training.

gotcha....i wasn't talking down about community college at all. 

i went to a community college for my first two years. some of my teachers were better than the ones i had at the university i attended. it was one of the best decisions of my life, and i didn't have loans to pay when i graduated. 

[Skeba]

To the people who use sports analogys...

Was Jordan playing against the best US players when he was 7... Was he playing against them when he was 10? Was Ali beating the best junior boxers in the country when he was 13, or the kids down the street? I don't think that the sports analogy works really well in raising kids.. We are raising people, not machines. It should _not_ be all about how we can squeeze the best result out of small kids.

Of course, at some point the people who are better in a sport, at school, or at whatever area of life, will stand out from the rest in that area. And in case of school, they will most likely go to a better college, university or whatever. But. I think that up until that point, it is not really smart to separate kids. With some, this might work. For some it is a perfect setup to develop some sort of superiority complex, and to forget all social skills. I think that it is important for all the kids to be associated with each other so that they learn to deal with all kinds of people.

[sandman]

To the people who use sports analogys...

Was Jordan playing against the best US players when he was 7... Was he playing against them when he was 10? Was Ali beating the best junior boxers in the country when he was 13, or the kids down the street? I don't think that the sports analogy works really well in raising kids.. We are raising people, not machines. It should _not_ be all about how we can squeeze the best result out of small kids.

Of course, at some point the people who are better in a sport, at school, or at whatever area of life, will stand out from the rest in that area. And in case of school, they will most likely go to a better college, university or whatever. But. I think that up until that point, it is not really smart to separate kids. With some, this might work. For some it is a perfect setup to develop some sort of superiority complex, and to forget all social skills. I think that it is important for all the kids to be associated with each other so that they learn to deal with all kinds of people.

the answer to all your questions are probably yes.

in sports, there are try-outs to make most teams. then, teams are split up into levels.

this benefits the kids with less ability as well - it enables them to play and excel in competitive sports.

the same is true for school - whatever the "norm" is could be too much for some kids. then they could get overwhelmed and disinterested and fall behind.

by having different levels, children with LESS abilities probably benefit the most.

[Miz]

It should _not_ be all about how we can squeeze the best result out of small kids.

But it is. That's what education is; becoming the best. Why do we have Grades if we don't want people to perform?

I wasn't saying Ali was great because he was trained from when he was young, but when he started fighting, people recognised his talent and helped him, helped him more than people who couldn't box.

I could train 10 hours a day for the next 5 years and I'll never be able to run 100m as fast as Maurice Green. It's just the way things are. Some people are naturally better than others at certain things. These people should get the attention. I shouldn't get picked for the Olympic team to make me feel good even though i'm slow, Maurice should go, because he's fast.

It's unfair to hold some people back in certain areas, while letting other excel. Your kids sports leagues still have sperate divisions, because some teams are better than others. Some players are better than others, and the good players (at whatever sport) go to the good teams. Even at 7 or 8 years old this happens. If it can for sport, why not for education? That's why I brought up sports. In sports people excel, and they're allowed to, they're encouraged to with trophies and medals.

[Skeba]

But it is. That's what education is; becoming the best. Why do we have Grades if we don't want people to perform?

I'll have to disagree with you there. Of course we want people to do well. Of course we want them to advance. But I think that it only goes up to a limit. I don't think that the only job for education is to make you the best you can be in terms of grades. Schools educate us as a whole.. I think school's function, especially for the smaller children (let's say 6-15-year-olds), is to educate people on the subjects they teach, but also to teach on the side people social skills.

If it was all about how well the do in school, children would stay in school 9 hours every day, have no freetime 'cause they'd be taught from the getgo that their purpose in life is to perform. Be the best individual there is!! Have no childhood what so ever. Some people out of these would grow up to be successful in life, and the others.. well... They'd propably just grow bitter 'cause they worked just as hard as the next guy, and propably would've gotten the same results by spending a little less time with school.

And all you people talk about is sports... It's the kids and learning we're talking about. If your only motivation in school is to be better than the person next to you, and not the fact that you want to learn the things that are taught... Well then we're just very different people. I really don't care if a guy in my school gets a better grade than me, or if I was the best of my class. What I care about is how well I know the subject in question.

Learning too, can be made fun sometimes by making a game out of it. But I think that it's not healthy for the basic idea in school to be out doing the guy/girl next to you.