Was 2002/2003 the year?

[jbenzz]

"It's a dream realized. A dream come true. The right time, the right place and the whole thing came about by chance. I guess it's meant to be. This was something we could not turn down. The most exciting thing is getting the band out there to begin doing some shows and these are some big shows. It's a way for us to play for a lot of people and have a lot of fun. It's also a warm up so we can have an understanding of how to start our Fall tour. And that's a warm up for the Spring tour. This thing is starting now and much like Use Your Illusions that went for two and a half years, this thing is going to go off and on for the next two or three years and we'll see how it goes. We're really looking forward to seeing all the different people in the different countries and this is a great opportunity."

ok... i took this quote from the Press release in August 2002 for the Chinese Democracy tour.  A few things just occured to me, and I'm not sure if they've been discussed or not.  I'm not sure about a few things so I thought we might start a disscusion/investigation.  

Here are some basic facts that I need, and some of them aren't precise so if you can update them, it would be helpful:

August 2002
- Axl releases a press release with the above quotation.
- there are reports of shows being planned, blah blah blah. Of interest is a report that an Austrailian leg of the tour is being planned, but delayed until Jan/Feb to promote Chinese Democracy
- G'NR play the VMA's

September 2002
- Chinese Democracy release rumors start. Target date is December, 2002 (Note that Sept 16th is the first rumor of a release date, according to HTGTH News, for all those saying that they don't have enough time to release it now)
- MTV reports the following: "An Interscope Records spokesperson said that while it has no release date for the LP, "soon" is a good word.", despite Axl saying that it's not. (NOTE: I personally suspect that Axl said soon isn't the word so that there was more anticipation for the album.  IF he had said that it was comming soon in September, people might get angry at to have to wait till December, and it is Axl...)
-GN'R press release details the North American tour dates

October 2002
- Miss Truth reports the following: "Interscope publicist Terry Wang was also unaware of any GNR advances, although at least one radio station contacted said it had been told a single may be forthcoming at the end of October. "
- Metal Hammer reports: "The group were apparently in Shanghai recording a video for the track 'Catcher In The Rye' which is taken from their forthcoming new album 'Chinese Democracy'."

OK... Here is where it gets wierd.  Basically everything shuts down...  I don't have any thing that I can find saying that the Decemeber 2nd date is removed from the stores calendar, but I assume it is near the end of this month.  I personally believe that something happens during the later part of this month which screws everything up.  No single is sent to radio stations and no video is seen.  Everyone generally assumes that these were rumours that were made up, but Interscope is the one reported as saying that 'soon' is the word and that a single should come out in late October, so I think that this honestly was the plan.  

Ok, then Axl misses the first date of his tour.  This is interesting because, from my perspective, the tour manager would make sure that everyone is on the same plane flying to the same airport, etc.  I'm assuming that the rest of the band flew together from wherever they were rehearsing to Vancouver.  Why didn't Axl board that plane?  My speculation, which is purely conjecture,  is that something urgent must have come up that delayed him from boarding that plane.  Given that the tour is cancelled a few weeks later, I'm speculating that Axl had some type of meeting with Clear Channel or Interscope.  My reasoning behind this is that from Clear Channel's perspective, they got screwed.  They were expecting an album to be released to support the tour, and they realise that there is no album coming, so they try to either cancel the tour or try to force Axl to release something quickly so that there is some new motivation for people to go to the show.  While it isn't unusual for a band not to have an album out when they are touring, they normally have a single being played for people to get excited about.  The fact that there was no single should have been a sign to us that the tour was doomed.

Ok, from there I don't know what happend.  Assuming that there was some sort of meeting, we don't know the outcome so everything i can only guess that the end decision in some way detremetally affected Guns 'N Roses.  Either they had to pay Clear Channel for the lack of tickets sold, or maybe Clear Channel was going to cancel upcomming shows that weren't selling well/relocate.  I assume that Axl didn't know about Philly being a no-go until after Madison Square Gardens, because normally Axl is pretty vocal about everything, and would have complained to the MSG crowd about why his tour got cancelled and that Clear Channel sucks, blah blah.  Based on what we've heard about legal issues, I doubt that it was an Axl no-show or Axl was sick or some of the things that were reported. Basically, tour gets cancelled.

Based on what I've said above and the timeline thing, i think it's pretty clear that 2002 was supposed to be the year for Chinese Democracy, and SOMETHING happened, and from what i can see, it happened in late October.  What's interesting is that Dizzy said that June was the date right before the cancellation: "There are just a few odds and ends left to do - a couple of finishing touches, a couple of vocals ? and we need to mix it,". So, unless he just pulled it out of his ass and assuming that I am right (which might be a long stretch), something happened in October that rendered Chinese Democracy unreleasable in it's current state.  Some possibilities:

- they lost it, which is basically impossible
- the record company said that it wasn't good enough, which is a slight possibility given that we 'recently' heard rumours supporting this.  I personally doubt this because I don't think that Interscope would allow a tour to be planned, release dates to be announced, a single scheduled (kinda), a video filmed, and the sort unless they had heard the record.
- maybe the album was deemed unacceptable because of lyrical content.  Maybe too political or something and radio stations/ video stations (MTV, VH1, etc) said they wouldn't play some of the songs that were planned as singles.  I don't know about this one because I think that we would have heard something suggesting this, and i think Axl would have hinted it.  It could be true given that Dizzy hinted that vocals needed to be done.  If the record was finished in October, then recording vocals suggests that there were new lyrics.

This is all I can think of.  I realise this might be a dead horse, but I figured that it's kinda dead here and this is essentially the pivotal point/issue in newgnr history.  I don't think anyone has done enough analysis into this and in hindsight, it really looks as if things were going to happen.  Axl seemed psyched about it in August when he had the press release saying he was gonna tour in the Spring and hinting at a huge tour.  Based on everything that was said and all the actions by the record company and G'NR from August to October, the stage was set for a December release.  After October, something happened which caused the downfall of this plan.


Sorry to make this post HUGE, but i had alot to say and I want people to understand my rational behind my speculation.  Basically I want to see what people can come up with as to why the tour ended and whether I'm right in assuming that December 2002 was a planned release date.

/Ben
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[younggunner]

I didnt read your whole post, but i think I got the point....

This is all my opinion....

Axl says after the VMAs...After the north american leg of the tour they will go back and do some more recording. That means CD wasnt even done. That tour ended in Dec and was offcially supposed to end in the 1st week of January.

So assume they take off a month or two after the tour. Axl and or the band get back in the studio in MArch/APril of 2003.

2004 rolls around and Bucket "leaves". BAnds intentions were to kcik everything off at Rio4. Now plans are haulted and now we are here......

I personally beleive the band wanted to release the album either in late 2003 or this past Spring. BUt a few lawsuits came up, bucket, Vr, GH so who knows...either way its still hard to figure out. Best thing to do is just wait and dont worry bout it till we get a press release from the Monstrosity....

[jbenzz]

I guess i didn't really point it out in my post but, Why the fuck did G'NR tour in the first place?  No promoter is going to let a band play a North American tour unless they have an album out.  I can see the Vegas shows and the festivals being one off things to get the band out there, and it's understandable if they do this with no album in sight, but it makes no sense that they would tour without an album that was slated for release.  

In response to your comment about Axl after the VMA's, I'll start by posting his exact comment:
"Umm you'll see it, I dont know if soon is the word. But it will come out and we will, we'll go back, we'll do some more recording and then we'll start the American leg of the tour... And see how it goes from there. " - Axl

There are lots of ways to read this. I personally read it as recording for other albums.  I know alot of people think the 3 album thing is bullshit, but given that it is one of the definite, confirmed things that Axl has said about Chinese Democracy, it's hard to believe that it wouldn't happen.  Like I said above, if they didn't have an album ready, they wouldn't have been allowed to get the promotion started.

PS - If you are gonna respond about how much Axl lies to us, I'd very much like to see a catalogue of direct quotations from Axl that were lies.  I think there are surprisingly few. Rumour has cause most people to assume that Axl lies to us.

[KeVoRkIaN]

Lies - Not many - being vague and cryptic - he's a master.

[ClintroN]

maybe, what ever the origenal plan was (touring for 2, 3 years), maybe thats why Buckethead might be on contract still 'cause they were expecting to tour for a long time but all fell to shit house!!  They could still be waiting for his contract to run out to move ahead

good points though jbenzz, i did read the whole thing too

[Dave_Rose]

2004 Hopefully  

[Will]

I definitely think 2002 was THE year. But something wrong happened and plans were aborted.

I think it's more and more likely that Geffen/Interscope will force the band to release the disc. It's obviously very near completion (parts done/ mixing step since july 2003 -- according to Tommy in an interview last year/ digital editing step already done/ Dizzy saying only legal issues hold the release) and I really think Geffen wants this thing to happen in november 2004. The management would like to but they will deny everything just in case something goes wrong (*hint* 2002 US tour *hint*).

I think that with all the legal issues which happened since 2001, now it's more a case of "the disc has to come out" for Geffen. The GH CD was obviously an early sign of their lack of patience...now what is gonna be the next step?

[MadmanDan]

Lies - Not many - being vague and cryptic - he's a master.

Yeah,you figured it all out!! Axl never had any intention to release CD. All the touring and stuff was just to mislead us. GIVE ME A FUCKIN BREAK!!!!!!!!

[Yourmother]

if you saw the buckethead interview with kurt loder..he seemed genuinely excited to be a part of gnr..My guess is that he was sick of the delays

[Lord Kayoss]

2004 Hopefully  

One can always hope but...

[FragileVision]

I agree mostly with what's been said here.

I truly think that 2002 was the year, but things became totally messed up when the tour derailed. According to Fortus in an early 2003 interview (the one with the guitar retailer), he claimed that the band would be starting up again next May (which would have been Rio 4).

I really think that the plan was to jump start things again this year, but when Buckethead bailed, that threw another wrench into things and forced Axl to rethink the band's strategy.

And here we are, no closer than we were in 2002 (despite Dizzy's comments that "it feels closer now than it did then"), and still without a shred of information.