Here Today... Gone To Hell!

He says Slash and Duff struggled to gel with Frank.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y9DH5V-u6U

I think he meant musically speaking... I think you could hear it on the first few shows.

That was a good listen. Thanks.

. Well nothin new... if u have ears u would notice it anyway. When i was in Imola in 2017I could hear a lot of mistakes, bad timing, bad fills... and i’m not even a Drum expert. Things got better some months After... but as much as i like frank as a person, i don’t think hes the right choice for gnr, even after all these years

according to Matt in his book Duff said to him Frank can't play, so that's no surprise.

just listened to it...

Nick : "he's a hell of a drummer"

that poorly convincing "hmm hmm" answer by Richard made me  :hihi:

I think he's nowhere near as skillful as brain, however I do think he has a more rock n roll groove than brain. Brain was almost like Buckethead, a virtuoso drummer, that you would see more in a progressive acid jazz band than GNR.

I don't know that groove is the word I'd use to describe Frank. Maybe a hip hop groove if anything. He does If The World well. In fact, I'd really love to hear that with Slash and Duff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-27Sd1aFyDk

Interesting to hear that they went to that last show in Mexico expecting the crowd to have masks. I thought at the time there must have been more to the story than we knew about that.

in a sense, he could be right. It’s all about the kind of music you’re going to play.

he's probably cool as f and a solid drummer, but well, I've never had this "wow" effect
about his drumming, like I had with Brain who brings some special energy to the band,
like Robin did on guitar.

and I still don't really understand why Matt was discarded to be frank (no pun intended)

Maybe when you look at his history, it becomes clearer?

Velvet Revolver - broke up.
The Cult - continued without him.

Then there was Camp Freddy, that turned into Royal Machines. Yeah, without Matt.

Fired from GN'R.






/jarmo

yep i think matt is not the nicest guy in the world...Plus i think he’s still doing coke.

It's a shame because Matt is a much better drummer. :beer:

I can't seriously think that Velvet Revolver split because of Matt, they fired
Scott Weiland because of his personal problems. at least that's what they said.

The Cult continued without him because he joined GNR, right? plus they reformed with
him around 2000...

and he quits Camp Freddy to do Kings Of Chaos with Duff & Gilby...

so I don't see some kind of narrative where Matt was very difficult to work with,
if it was really the case he wouldn't play with so much different people as Johnny
Depp, Glenn Hughes, Billy Gibbons, Joe Perry and so on.

I'm sure he has a big mouth and can be very direct where other people would avoid
confrontation but it doesn't explain to my point of view why he's not in GNR with the
other guys.

Axl & Slash worked out their differences, I don't understand why Axl & Matt didn't

Wouldn't that explain it though? Axl isn't exactly known for welcoming confrontation. Slash and Duff have always been laid back and avoid confrontation.

That's what they said, yes.

Their singer was not getting along with the drummer.





He went back to The Cult and then they got back together again without him. They even opened for GN'R in 2016....






It's one thing to work with people. It's something else to be a drummer in a band.





Different people.


All I'm saying is, people are surprised this guy's not in the band anymore. I just listed examples of a guy who has had multiple bands implode while he was in them. And then continued without him.

So I'm not surprised.




/jarmo

you're right man

and yes, he is a much better drummer than Frank

I've never really listened to FF and thought the drumming stood out in any way.

sure thing, it's public, and they found a way to made peace before Scott's death which is cool.

but it was the case with the other guys too, I mean, Slash & Duff didn't get along well with Scott
and his drug addiction kinda fucked up the whole project (well to be honest Matt was using too,
Slash was drinking again and Duff was on pills).

my point is, if Matt was the problem in this band Slash & Duff would have fired him instead of
firing Scott, who is way more famous and was the face and the voice of the band..

and I won't say Matt is a better drummer than Frank which is harsh and maybe
not true I'm not a drummer myself and can't judge the technic but in my opinion
for this particular band Matt is a better choice in terms of sound and feeling.

(best choice is still Brain and I regret his departure like a lot of people I suppose)

You're free to believe what you want. I tried to explain and show you a possible reason why he's not in the band. You don't believe any of what I said.

Maybe in your opinion he's a great guy who everyone gets along with. That's ok.

But I'm not surprised that he's not in the band. For the reasons I explained.






/jarmo

Jarmo the wise man  :peace:

oh no, I believe some and agree with you when you imply he can be difficult to work with at some point.
I mean, like the other guys he has a big ego, a big mouth, and he's probably sometimes a pain in the ass,
nobody's perfect.it doest disqualifies him being part of a "reunion" thing to my eyes, that's all.

for what I know he was proposed to play some shows without any financial compensation, and I don't think
it's fair. he was downgraded as an additional member when he was before presented to us as some kind of
salvator of the band when he replaced Steven, I don't think that's fair either.

he was the guy who defended Slash when it was a difficult time between Axl & him.

Slash could remember that.

but I understand Axl has the final word, I just don't get it and I suppose there's other reasons not in the public domain...

I enjoy his drumming... BUT he has never done anything other than trash Axl since about 1996. In all interviews he does he comes off as a loud mouth, and typically looks like he did a barrel of coke.

This shouldn't be a surprise... Axl has a running list of people in his head that he is willing to work with and willing to stand by that have stood by him (see Richard since 2002). Matt hasn't exactly done anything to get a spot back on that list, other than "hey Duff put in a good word for me"

Why would Axl surround himself with a guy that has been vocal against him, and would continue to be vocal moving forward. This is like the Steven argument... it would be nostalgic for a moment then the problems arise...

Steven and Matt are very different, and it's not insulting Steven to say Matt has a way more professional attitude.

it's also untrue to say Matt bashed Axl every time he opened his mouth. in fact in a lot of interviews he said how
great Axl was, for example comparing him to Scott and how things were different at a success level due to him.

in his book he trashes Slash and Duff at some points, not a bad word about Axl. thats says a lot knowing the bonds
between him and Duff for example.

you said he hasn't done anything to get a spot back but I remember Axl & Matt crossed each other and had a good time
together in 2006 or 2008 or whatever.

Matt wasn't more vocal about Axl than Slash, so that's not what I'd call a good motive.

It very well could.

The band, and touring, is like any team. You can get a star player, but it doesn't mean (s)he will fit in the team.






/jarmo

I wouldn't be friends with Matt. That being said his work in UYI was instrumental in order to complete the masterpiece. Knocking him is just silly.

Playing is one thing, personality is something else.

Some think people should be in bands based on their playing alone. Sure, but in the long run that might not work.


How often do you hear of bands firing a member because they couldn't play well enough? It's usually something else that's the reason.




/jarmo
 

Dude... do you play? It happens all the time.

I'm more used to hearing about people being fired for being convicted of crimes, drug problems, he can't write songs and other things. Not "he couldn't play"...




/jarmo

Yeah, but that's in the news, with famous people... which accounts to maybe 1% of all musicians... if you're in bands, and look for people to collaborate and stuff like that, then its a whole different matter.

Oh, definitely when we're talking about bands in general.... But I mean established bands. Who do it for a living....




/jarmo

I have just about every boot from the 2016 leg of NITL tour.  And my personal feeling is that Frank plays some tunes a bit too fast.  But it got better over time.

But drumming is weird with this band.  Always has been.  People wax outright poetic about Steven Adler, which I have never understood.  If he was this immense talent, how come he has done precisely nothing of note in the 30 years since he got tossed?  I would think such an unquestioned talent would get a call from SOMEONE in all that time, yes?

People that shit on Matt say he was too much of a robot.  Um...is that not what you want in a drummer?  Consistency?  The boots I listen to the most, and I have tons from all eras, the UYI ones feature the best drumming.  And I don't think it's close.  He had a good groove on a tune like 'Brownstone', but was always there to kill it on tunes like DTJ, YCBM and PC.

Steven and Matt not being in GNR doesn't really have anything to do with music. Steven has done nothing of note in 30 years because he's a dysfunctional drug addict, the reason he was tossed from the band in the first place.  As for Matt, read his book that was supposed to come out, if you can get your hands on it. His involvement with nearly every band he's been a part of doesn't end well and it's mostly his own fault. He somehow managed to make himself come off like the biggest douchebag in a book written in his own words.

Hahahaha

Matt did sort of seem like a dick, even back in the day.

Hmmm, yes and no. Depends on the music genre too. Metal and jazz demand more perfection than rock n roll and punk or folk... Sloppy drums or playing has charm sometimes... Think Bob Dylan... Brain is a far superior drummer than Frank... yet I think Frank has more groove and Brain is almost a jazzy virtuoso player that sounds to me a little out of place sometimes in Chidem..

Different how? Assholes get kicked out of cover bands, bar bands, wedding bands, local bands that never quite break, and world famous bands all the time. Regardless of playing and or songwriting ability. Skid Row for example... Sebastian Bach is an amazing talent, no major Adler like demons... if the other members could stand to be around him they would make a 10x the money they do as Skid Row featuring not Sebastian Bach on vocals. He comes off like an insufferable Douche Bag, so I'm assuming they can't be in the some room with him. That's Matt to an extent.

To the point made earlier, take boots from any era of this band and for my money the best live drumming in Matt. Brain sounded like a weak drum machine, Frank is certainly iffy on his timing, but there is a reason Frank is there.

someone like AC/DC you mean?
because he almost joined them, their manager retracted his offer because of his drugs problems.

but maybe AC/DC is not a big name in your book.

and the main reason of someone quitting a band or being fired is : "musical differences"

and everyone knows it means "I can't stand that guy anymore"  :hihi:


and I *understand* it's not easy to work with someone who fits perfectly your band
BUT is a pain in the ass at a personal level. what do you do? being stronger than that
and keep going, with tensions here and there, or find someone you get along with,
but compromising with your sound? most artists choose the easy way, "let's find
another guy"and sometimes it works but most part of the time I have the impression
they try to convince themselves the new guy is as good as the older one, but he's not.


I don't want to particularly romanticize difficult relationships between human being but in a
rock band context sometimes tensions gives awesome work, thinking about Faith No More's
Angel Dust for example.

They would absolutely qualify.  But, as you say, it didn't happen.

But returning to what I said...30 years.  Guy wasn't let go from GNR 20 minutes ago.

Substance abuse is definitely a concern.  But much like with "character issues" in sports, if you can play, you get a longer leash and unlimited looks from teams.  When you are only a so-so player, you aren't as fortunate.

well, he didn't because he was a junkie, not because he wasn't capable of.

the question is more what sort of drummer are you than can you play Dream Theater stuff.

Izzy Stradlin is not Buckethead, but he sounds good.
I never thought of Duff as a bass virtuoso like Billy Sheehan or Tony Levin, but he sounds good.
Steven is not Bill Bruford or Terry Bozzio, but he sounds good too.
in the band the only virtuoso was Slash, and he was not Jimi Hendrix or Eric Clapton either.


but they keep going together under a big name, that's the main difference.

You could even say that virtuoso players are very often boring, lack feeling, and are more interpreters than songwriters.

I could, but I'm trying to avoid stereotypes, I mean, when you're an artist, the more
technical you can be, the more freedom it gets you to express whatever you want to express.

but yes if you have nothing to say it's just a technical demonstration and it's boring I agree.

He actually plays better technically speaking than both these two, not knocking on either and especially Clapton, Slash is a virtuoso on a way higher level

Slash and Duff wouldn't have worked with him in Velvet Revolver if he was difficult to work with ,can you tell us exactly how many member GnR have had since their formation it must be near 50 at this stage with one member who has never left ,that tells you all you need to know about who is difficult to work with.

ahahahahaha  :rofl:

and Lemmy would have never called him to play on tour with Motorhead. Lemmy was bullshit free.

Different because in the news, the flashy thing that we see all the time is Drama related: alcohol - women - attitude - etc. Not being able to play doesnt make the news, but I would say its one of the main reasons why someone leaves a band ... in the real world that is..

Do you play? Because I do, and its waaaay Harder to play Slashs riffs and solos than Claptons

The fact that I used VR as an example means that it happened after they chose to be in a band with him again. And how did that band end? Matt Sorum and Weiland fighting....


Let's look at what the track record is with Matt and Slash for example.

GN'R - fired
Snakepit - quit over disagreements
VR - band broke up


To put it bluntly, there's a difference between playing live with Motorhead as a stand in drummer, and being part of a band.

Nobody's doubting his drumming skills, so relax. I'm just saying that maybe his personality doesn't work well in all bands. I know, I know, you think he's an amazing human being. That's fine.

You guys wonder why he's not back in GN'R, I give a possible reason and you get all defensive.




/jarmo

You're omitting almost all context though.

GNR - fired by Axl, not Slash. Many people have been fired by Axl over the years. It's also ignoring the power dynamic; if the exact same things happened but Matt lead the band, he probably would have fired Axl. Would that mean Axl was the troublemaker even though the actual behavior from either of them did not change, only the power dynamic? Is every employee that gets fired from a job automatically a bad employee?
Snakepit - Not true. He was still in GNR and Axl called him back to Guns so he couldn't tour the album.
VR - the entire band had relapsed and Scott Weiland bounced around between bands ever since because nobody could work with him. He may have had particular trouble getting along with Matt, but it's anyone's guess who was really in the wrong, and like most things in life, I'm sure both sides were being difficult.

plus, Jarmo, what you're saying about Matt is also true for Duff & Slash.

GNR? problems with lead singer
Velvet Revolver? problems with lead singer
Snakepit? two albums, two different lead singers

but I hear you, and I know what Scott said about Matt :

"The relationship I had with Matt became horrendous. He and I had come close to fist-fights
so many times that it’s ridiculous. He has an attitude with lead singers. It’s a problem he had
before Revolver – in Guns N’ Roses and The Cult. And, who knows, maybe even before that."

so yeah, probably the most difficult one of the 3 to deal with when you're a singer.

but he said too :

"When you think about it, isn’t it ironic that the band is regurgitating the same story that they did
with Axl Rose in their last band, where the lead singer was being demonised? Originally I thought:
“What a troll he must have been. What an evil man.” But you know what? I have to say that I have
an entirely different opinion of him today."

so, to end with this Matt thing before people think I'm a huge fan of the guy and collect all his cds & beers  :hihi: :

I understand he's difficult to deal with at some point when you're a singer, but not that much than the others.
I think there's a financial aspect to it, he's not that famous in the common public eye so why waste big money on him?
Frank is established as the GNR drummer since years now, and he's loyal to Axl.

No. I explained it all. Personality, not playing. Doesn't matter who did the firing....

Two people don't get along.

So when you know there's a risk of one person constantly creating drama, and all you want is a smooth sailing, maybe you see if there are other alternatives....



/jarmo

Yep.

Good rules of thumb in life :

- don't get involved in a land war in Asia
- don't travel anywhere with The Rock
- don't join a band with Slash in it

 :hihi:

to be fair he found a guy who can sing, write songs and has no bigger ego
than him and it works (yes, I'm talking about Myles Kennedy of course)

I listened to a podcast awhile back with someone involved in the business side of VR. Matt had a disagreement in that band about how much screen time he was getting in the videos compared to the others. So yeah, maybe these guys realized there are easier people to work with..

I’m not trying to pick a side in this whole Matt debate but ... I mean Jarmo does tour with all these guys so I’m sure he’s got some insight into what went on. I mean he’s pretty much spelled it out without exactly saying it upfront. To paraphrase ... Matt might be a great player but he’s a dick to play with long term. Just my two cents. Not even sure how this debate started. Heck, I thought the dude was still in the Cult until I saw the Atlanta show and realized he wasn’t. Although now that I think about it, isn’t Ian Astbury a dick, too? Haha. Cheers  :beer:

I don't really remember hearing about the subject to be honest... But it's just common sense to me.

You have a drummer, who's been in the band for years. Two guys are re-joining, and a new member is joining. That alone is some uncertainty in itself. Will everything work? Will everyone get along? Etc.

So why add more by bringing someone back who you might not have had such an amazing working relationship with in the past?




/jarmo

Again, that's Scott's opinion, which is obviously biased being one of the two people involved in said conflict. I could just as easily find an interview where Matt says he couldn't work with Scott and no wonder STP couldn't either.


Amazing how once he's not in a band with a singer who is bipolar or a notoriously hardcore addict, things go pretty smoothly.

Also, to act like Snakepit "broke up twice" is just false. The first album was a side project that wasn't intended to continue on. In fact, Slash wanted to keep touring but the support from Geffen was pulled once they broke even so he would return to Guns. Eric Dover still talks highly of Slash to this day. The 2nd incarnation had a junkie for a singer and Slash was the one who ended it because he had cleaned up. That's a sign of maturity and responsibility, if anything.

That's a much fairer way of putting it. You can not get along with somebody without it being anybody's fault or them being an asshole. Some personalities just don't jive with each other.

doesn"t explain why Eric Dover was not the singer of this second LP, and that was the point.
he was not available?  :hihi:

Slash didn't want the same singer. Have you not read any of his interviews from the time? Snakepit was never supposed to be a single lineup.