Here Today... Gone To Hell!

I used to be a huge fan of the UYI records but for a variety of reasons, lately, I've done a 180 on them. I actually think they're GNR's worst records. Great songs here and there, but plagued by terrible production and mixing which dates the records, and horrible drumming which lacks any feel. People on other forums complain about Frank or Brain, but on the UYIs, Matt sounds like a drum machine on some tracks. The guitars are mixed terribly, especially on the rhythm end, resulting in a sludgy mess. Go compare the production of the UYIs to Ten, Nevermind or any other big album of 1991 - all of those other albums sound much less dated.

CD on the other hand is solid, it's not all over the place, Axl's vocals are more consistent, the drums have a cool sound, it's a cohesive record that feels like a consistent idea, not a schizophrenic mishmash. My rating of GN'R's albums overall:

AFD
Lies
CD
TSI
UYI I
UYI II

Nope. I love the Illusions albums. They're filled with amazing tracks and I'm looking forward to hearing the songs revisited live with Slash and Duff. I'd never heard anything like it at the time. It blew me away. I admit when I first heard November Rain I had to stop the tape and pull it out to make sure I was still listening to Guns N Roses but after the first listen I thought it was class. There's gems like Don't Damn Me, Breakdown and Coma that I'm hoping we'll get to hear on this next tour. I have illusions and Appetite playing constantly in my car. I don't know when I've last listened to Chin Dem. For me, Better and IRS and There Was a Time are my favourites off that album but it lacks Slash's crunchy guitar which we will hear again in this next tour

To me the UYI's are the best two albums in the history of music. But, it's not only because of the music they hold, it's also because of the memories and how the albums are connected to my personal life. Nothing can take that place anymore 8)

And yes, CD is mixed better and is also a great album. But it's like comparing your first car to the latest one. There's just something you can't explain.

The Use Your Illusion albums are a watershed - historically and musically. Just the fact that they are the totality of the - then - biggest band on the planet releasing everything (pretty much).

In terms of quality they're really good and I'm on board with RS giving both discs 4/5.

There are some absolute classics on there and there are some under-the-radar gems (Breakdown, Bad Apples) but at the same time, the albums haven't aged that well. In some respects, they echo the same way as many gangsta rap albums from that time did. They're dated. Rap albums by the constant year-droppings ("nineteen ninety one mothaf*'ka.. yadda yadda yadda") and Illusions it's Get in the Ring and the sound effects dating an otherwise monstrous cool song (Coma).

Chinese Democracy will age much better. Just wait.

It's funny how certain ears hear things, and how opinions get applied...

If you removed all names (album and artists) and years, your take on UYI is my take (nearly word for word) on CD. I love Frank so this is not a shot at him at all, but I do feel like Brain was very mechanical, in fact to this day I really struggle figuring out what is Brain on drums and what might be Brain or Pitman using drum machines and synth for percussion/bass line sounds. To your point of 'aging' well, I think that has already failed in the past 8 years as the music was dated when it was released.

As far as a schizophrenic mishmash... that is sort of how Tommy described the recording of CD... maybe not thematically, but certainly from a production angle. Just look at the title track... there are 5 guitar players listed on that song (and more than likely even more guitar tracks) some of those tracks were laid down years apart (Bucket was out 5-6 years before the album was released and 3-4 years before Ron would have laid down his work on the track).

I prefer CD to AFD. It's too 80's for me.

Not even a little bit.

UYI is a great burger.  CD is Hamburger Helper without the hamburger.

Apples and Oranges

Of course not.

2 different bands.

That doesn't mean you can't prefer one. Just that they are difficult to compare.

That is about right for me too.

Love UYI great mix of styles, 30 new tracks. Took 4 years to get them, but 4 years for 30 tracks or 10 years for 14?

What?

CD is good, just when the dust settles it wasn't that good. It's got some great songs on it, but I find myself listening to UYI songs more and more.

I love Chinese Democracy. Like every GNR album there were some songs I could care less about but my two favorite GNR songs are Rocket Queen and TWAT. I hope they play it in Vegas.

I agree with this. Brain's drums may sound cristal clear, but it doesnt sound like a human being was playing them.
Ive said it before, but Matt's drums and the echo or reverb they had in the mix made the whole record sound grand, I think Slash said this in an interview.
Steven's contributions to AFD where in accordance to the rest of the bands contributions, they came from the street, they went fast and dirty. COWBELL !!


CD sounded dated when it came out. Similar to how the last Pink Floyd sounds.
I think some of it has to do with technology. Computer effects  sound modern when they come out, but a few years later they sound dated. Similar to trip-hop in the 90's.
I don't agree with the effects on Coma, I think they are pretty good still. Plus, the album didnt have that much of effects, and they where not really effects, but rather sounds recorded and pasted on songs.


But If Im to listen to a band for the drums I go with Black Sabbath.


Edit: I also don't agree about TEN from Pearl Jam having aged well. They remastered the album a few years ago, and while it was more clear than the original recordings it lost something. But it made me realize that the original recordings sound like they where  recorded in a hole. Which isn't so bad cause that's where the magic happened. But it definitely has issues.

This is a question only for people who prefer CD over the UYIs.

What is the point here? Comparing musicians?

AFD
LIES
ILUSSIONS
CHINESE DEMOCRACY

All By Period  8)

Bonus Track:

TSI
LIVE-ERA
GREATEST HITS

the best of the Illusions beats the best of CD hands down...the elephant in the room is the Chinese material we haven't heard.

For my money, it is VERY hard to beat November Rain, Coma, Civil War, Estranged, Locomotive, Breakdown....just HUGE tracks that even TWAT kinda pales in comparison to.

My perfect world would have been CD as a double album when released in 2008....then we would have been able to properly line them up against each other.

This is a great point.  We are judging what is, essentially, half the work.

That being said, I never really bought into this notion that they willingly sat on a bunch of killer stuff and put out lesser songs.  That doesn't make much sense to me.

I prefer Tuna Helper myself Clark - Cousin Eddie

^ Agree with DG-X. To use a sports analogy, you play for today. It makes no sense to hold back your ace material for a later date to accomplish what? A great follow up?

As for the topic at hand: I prefer UYI to CD. Better songs across the board, iconic guitar sounds and riffs.

And dig- newer isn't always better. In many respects the fact that albums date themselves make them that much more special. Look around, every other band is talking about returning to tape and recording in the old studios of yesteryear. I love old Hank Williams albums and Motown precisely because they are a musical snapshot (old reference I know) of those eras.

Maybe in a thousand years people will look at an American muscle car and chuckle "how quaint", but take a ride in one if you can, it sure beats the hell out of a Prius. Just remember to bring your favorite cassette of Guns!

Just a discussion of opinions I think! One of the main reasons for a fan forum to exist.

Hahahaha

Nice.

That's what I meant, you just can't compare the two, it's two different bands.

By the way, if it weren't for the superiority of the UYI's, there would be no CD to speak of ...

But isn't the great thing about music is that it is subjective. To us outsiders we say why would they sit on all this great material for it not to be released giving the implication that the best stuff has already come out. For all we know whatever material may come in the future some may say WOW this is even better then Chi Dem and some may say well this is why they held onto it for sooo long it was ok at best. I know we all hate the waiting game in this music world we live in but all you can do is wait and let whatever comes out determine the fate of the music.

I struggle to find anything on CD that sounds dated aside from Shackler's intro riff IMHO.

I agree.  Of all the knocks the album has, some quite legit, that one never rang true to me.

You are kidding right ?

While I do love The blues (SOD), and I consider the song to be one of the best CD has, I think it sounds dated.

And why is that?

To me what makes a track sounding dated is the arrangement, a clich? (as in the Shackler's example), maybe the recording technique, or the tone of particular instruments. I don't hear anything wrong on SOD.

You can't compare apples to oranges.

Why not? both of them are fruits?

Thing is, the UYIs might have the better collection of songs and they likely do, but the execution is so horrible....I mean, go back and listen to those albums. The production is terrible, utterly slick and sterile, on every song. The drums sound on some songs like a metronome. There's no life or feel to them the way there is on AFD, Lies or CD. They seriously drag down the record and many songs. I mean, a song like Bad Apples is supposed to be really funky, and you've just got Matt thumping away like a drum machine on it. I mean, listen to how weird his drums sound on the intro to 14 Years! Then, all the unneeded sound effects and corny overdubs (KOHD phone call, COOL RANCH DRESSING, the bubble sounds on Garden of Eden, GET DOWN WITH YO BAD SELF)...It turns the record into a cheesefest, and again, that production kills the record. Go listen to Ten, Metallica, Nevermind, Badmotorfinger, and then the UYIs back to back. Go listen to AFD, then the UYIs, back to back, and you'll get what I'm saying about the production. Great songs in theory plagued by almost unlistenable production and some of the worst drumming I've ever heard.

The sentimentality of the song, a bit poppish or melodramatic at times. Im not knocking the song when I say this, but this was more akin to 80's and 90's songs.
The tone of the guitar does sound a bit dated as well, the grand piano and the violins. I mean, you can use a piano and violins, but there is something in the sound, maybe the way it was recorded, or the instruments, it sounds like it comes from an early 90's song.
Again, Im not knocking the song, I love it, but it feels like early 90's to me. Not 2008.

Now you're just begging to be thrown eggs at you  :hihi:

So, wait a sec.  Let me see if I am understanding this.

We are knocking the UYI for silly sound effects.  And holding up as example of what should be is an album with :

- a title track with a comically long and pretentious intro
- whatever that in in the middle of 'Better'
- whatever that is in the middle of 'If The World'
- the Cookie Monster backing vocals in 'There Was A Time'
- the vocal intro to 'Scraped'
- basically the entire song, 'Rhiad & The Bedouins'
- movie quotes in the middle of 'Madagascar'
- the glug-glug water sound in 'Prostitute'

Now, I want to be clear about something.

This isn't so much shitting all over CD and defending UYI as it is pointing out both the inconsistency of the criticisms, as well as illustrating that's pretty much what this band is.  Their songs have stuff like this present in all 3 albums.

Well it was, but since he cried like a baby and kept the Gn'R name, the same standards apply. Sorry!

I wasn't saying you were knocking the song, sorry if it sounded like that.

I see where you came from, but I disagree. I actually think the piano sounds like a real grand piano instead of just a flat baddly recorded regular piano or even the Korg synths people uses these days. About the guitars, I'm not sure if you meant everyone. Maybe the last added Bumblefoot on top does the damage for you? Also, the violins seems ok to me, no complain about it. Maybe it's just a matter of taste.

Every time I see people dissing this song like its as electronic as My World. It is actually one of the most guitar driven of the album. The keys on that are not as proeminent as in Chinese Democracy. I don't know if it's just the intro or the tone of the guitars, but I do feel Riad gets undeserved trash.

Either UYI album is better than CD... it isn't even close. CD is over produced and over done. You can tell each song was reworked like 3-6 times. I agree DX

Its one of the least organic rock albums I can recall.

People talk about Sorum's drumming being mechanical, but the entire CD album has a Dr. Frankenstein quality to it where you can clearly tell songs were cobbled together over different times.

What is that?  Lifelike?

Yeah. I agree. CD always came off like a really really worn down fishing boat, that floats well, and works well, but its got a used motor, and lots of patches and duct tape kinda feel to it.

It was a new album, but it just had this worn out, old spit and tape feel too it. Like I had heard 4 or 5 of the songs live for like 6 years or so when it came out. Then since they jerked off for several years all together, it leaked. So obviously I listened to the leaks.. (which in this case is very much okay since it took FOREVER to come out)

So when I bought the album day 1, I had 5 songs I had worn out live... the other 6 I had heard leaks of for months, and 3 new songs.

So basically it was like getting 3 new songs in some ways. Yeah it really does feel not as cohesive.

Maybe that's because it had like 200 guitarists on there? lol

It was just the band's famous name, with the original singer/writer with a bunch of dudes basically. it was good though. Considering it all.

I mean when you really really think about it... it's pretty mindblowing. It was like an open door band. Huge, Finck, Bucket, Bumble, Fortus

That's 5 guys that it took to do what Izzy and Slash did better.

I find most people employing the term "overproduced" don't have an inkling of what they are talking about.

It is rich, multi-textured and layered, can best be appreciated on a quality stereo system. It doesn't suffer from over compression like several other albums from that time period.

Here's a great article from Bob Ludwig:

Guns ?N Roses:
Dynamics and quality win the Loudness Wars


Bob Ludwig:

On Sunday, November 23rd the new Guns ?N Roses record Chinese Democracy was finally released after many years of waiting and many millions spent making it. 14 different recording studios are credited. I was thrilled to have been chosen to master the album.

In October, when I first heard some of final mixes which were incredibly multi-layered and dense, I was surprised by two things: The mixes were so finally honed that doing the smallest move sounded like I had done a lot and also that adding the typical amount of compression used in mastering these days took the life and musicality out of the recordings in a big way.

The trial disc I submitted to the producers had 3 versions: The one I personally liked had no compression that was used just for loudness, only compression that was needed for great sounding rock and roll. Then, knowing how competitive everything is these days, I made two more masterings, one with more compression and another with yet more compression, but even the loudest one wasn?t remotely as loud as some recent CDs. Hoping that at least one of these would satisfy Axl and Caram Costanzo, the co-producers of the record, I was floored when I heard they decided to go with my full dynamics version and the loudness-for-loudness-sake versions be damned.

I think the fan and press backlash against the recent heavily compressed recordings finally set the context for someone to take a stand and return to putting music and dynamics above shear level.

The dynamics vs. volume trade-offs include the act of simply turning your playback volume clockwise a little. True, when shopping the iTunes store your song may not blast out as loudly as other songs. When trying to impress the radio station PD it may be an issue if you don?t have the guaranteed attention this record deserves, however level on the radio broadcast is NOT an issue. As I have been lecturing to people for years, the radio stations are all in competition with each other and they all have devices to make loud things soft and soft things loud and indeed, I heard a critic?s review of Chinese Democracy on NPR and the song examples they played screamed over my portable radio. Even with the radio station compression you can still hear detail in the car? amazing!
I?m hoping that Chinese Democracy will mark the beginning of people returning to sane levels and musicality triumphing over distortion and grunge. I have already seen a new awareness and appreciation for quality from some other producers, I pray it is the end of the level wars.

Gateway Mastering & DVD

The people who pieced it together did amazing things... the issue is the layers weren't/aren't needed. The title track is the easiest to point to... there is a nearly 1 minute completely unnecessary intro before the first of five guitar players strikes the first musical chord of the song. Every person to strap on a guitar from 2000-2008 was recorded for the song... Even Tommy has called the whole thing overkill. Frankly I find it amazing it is as good as it is with the bloat of it all.

It's why I hope that if the rumors of Slash and Duff recording CD era tracks are true, they drop all 'former' members of the process for the 2016 line up. Everyone can get their credit in the liner notes, but it needs to be trimmed back this time.

It is merely your opinion that layers "weren't needed"

Apparently they were wanted, or the Album version wouldnt contain them.

Beautiful thing about creating, whether it is a painting or a song - you get to finish it the way you want to, regardless of what others in various levels of association or non-association may want or think.

It is overproduced. But not the way people use to think.

Chinese Democracy has an intro? Big deal. Check the song One Vision from Queen, from which Axl clearly got inspired (and it has similar power chord riff after that). Nobody ever complained about that. But because you got to know the song without it, you think is "unnecessary".

CD also has multiple guitar players. Yes it true. Does the 5 guitarists play the very same thing at the very same time in the song? No. The power chord progression in the chorus and at the ending were Robin and Paul's work, while Bumble is riffing along and Bucket gets the leads througout those sections. It's not different from what Locomotive had it: only that instead of multiple players, the (at least 4) guitar tracks layered were all Slash.

At the same time, Catcher was completly rearranged adn there's no Brian May there. Also, no Buckethead or Richard. Why is that? It's just how they thought what the sound should have.

So the "problem" isn't about layers. It is the arrangement and the mixing. Which is very different from mastering, which is the subject of the Loudness Wars article Emily posted. Yeah, the album is really good at dynamics and sound levels, with not nearly as much compression as some other stuff, like Metallica's album from 2008 (forgot its name). And it's awesome to listen to CD with both good and bad earphones.

Mixing is another thing. It's about which layers do you think should pop out in the cohesive sound of the track. Should you put Paul Tobias guitar in SFTD as loud as Slash's? Should you bury Izzy's rhythm in almost every single track in Illusions? Those were all decisions made in the mixing board.

The arrangement in the other hand was kinda weird. It's not something they came up while playing and rehearsing.. It's the result of several years of sessions, but a lot of it sounded like it was worked on in the pre-mixing stage with the Pro Tools editing it. It was before the final mixes, but already with stuff recorded - hence why the demos had lots of the same performances/layers used in the final version. The only exceptions to me are the Bumblefoot and Frank's additions, which may have came out as they were rehearsing for the ongoing tour in 2006/07. Or maybe they were all ideas that those two came up with alone, but even in that case, it was after they had played half of those songs as a band on tour, which certainly changed their perspective.

IMHO, the mixing and arrangement are not as bad as people say. Maybe if they didn't know the songs and how long it took to release it, they would never think about them as that overproduced. I do think the mixing should have took the more traditional approach, tho, with the same pattern from AFD, Illusions and TSI - the lead guitar player always on the right side of the stereo, the rhythm on the left. Bass should be proeminent (that's a mixing issue I had with it). But that's just my personal feelings, I still love the sound of the album and its complexity.

I wholeheartedly agree that it is my opinion that the sheer volume of the layers wasn't needed and not some irrefutable fact... BUT I would argue with your take that they were wanted, because at least Tommy Stinson doesn't agree with that assessment and has made it know via interveiw. If everyone in the band had their way this would have been released years earlier in a more organic format.

I just don't get the maniacal need to defend Chinese Democracy like it is the mystical Wyld Stallyns album that brought world peace from Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure. It is a really good album, I think it could have been better (again in my opinion)... but I wouldn't put it at the top of any list and certainly not ahead of any of GnR's previous full length albums.

I agree. I think there's something wrong with the album, and Tommy knows it too. But I think this time It was not a problem of Axl and the boys recording tons of layers because they thought they where cool, but rather because the label told them to keep working on the songs to make them sound cooler.

CD in its essence was raped by the label. Tommy said it, and when he said it, the impression I had that something was wrong with the songs made perfect sense.

It was raped by the label when they were recording. By 2007, they could just not use every layer or rerecording once they got to the final mix. It was a creative decision probably made by Axl and Caram to release the album as it was in 2008 instead of strip it down to get a more organic feel.

I do think Axl thought it was appropriate to go along with it, or find a middle ground.

That doesnt mean it was a good idea.

Tommy was only a band member at the time, he didn't mix, master or produce the album, so I take what he supposedly said with a grain of salt.

Axl/Caram produced- and it's an excellent album, despite some "fans" attempts to play amateur armchair critic and e-producer.

Tommy was only a band member, he didn't mix, master or produce the album.

I don't get the maniacal need of some "fans" to constantly find fault and attempt to play pretend producer, and offer up unsolicited amateur advice concerning mixing, mastering and production.

It's easy to say the UYI records sound dated (and they do), but then again they were made 25 years ago.  Let's give it a quarter of a century before we make that call on CD.  Though, as has been said by many others, even by 2008 the industrial sounds were already in some respects a bit behind in the times. 

Not that sounding like your own time, or not being at the forefront is necessarily a bad thing.  One of my favourite songs on UYI is Double Talkin Jive, which is also the most distinctly early-90s sounding song you can imagine (the guitar sound for Slash's solo stands out). 

The thing about UYI is that because it has so many songs, and covers so many styles of music, it can sound kind of messy and inconsistent.  CD is more straightforward and focused. 

The fact that Tommy didn't mix master or produce the album has nothing to do with his opinion of it. That's not his job.

Fact is, he worked and reworked on the album, we're basically agreeing with him in saying they they worked and reworked on the songs too much. All that came before mixing and mastering.

Deciding to record tracks and tracks of instruments on top of each other has nothing to do with producing, mastering and mixing.

I would even say that the producing mastering and mixing was top notch.

I'm very aware that Stinson didn't mix, master or produce the album- that's why I said it- Duh- I'm also very aware the order that recording/working on, mixing and mastering occur in, and no- that wasn't his job, you're right- not his call either.

You're free to agree with his opinion, or anyone else's -- at the end of the day it's still just that, an opinion.

I personally think that the album sounds great, and obviously was intended to sound the way it does, thus -it's on the album release.

I splurged last year and bought a pair of Sennheiser headphones for my stereo- Chinese Democracy sounds glorious through those, and I am still finding bits and nuances that I haven't heard before- amazing Album.

 :confused:

Yeah I think it simply built up this mystic kinda feel. Like people wanted it to be this crazy good thing, this perfect thing. They wanted it to have take 10 years in the making/12 years since Slash quit and be this amazing better than Appetite For Destruction album. They wanted it (the fans) to be this insanely great masterpiece.

We are talking about an "album" here by the way guys, and as an album its just good. That's it. It is underrated I think, people simply attach the time it took to release with what is on it. If it comes out in 2002, and sounds about the same (less layers) then I think it is perceived much different.

I just hope to God that they bury CD, put out something fresh. There's nothing wrong with an old school rock sound, or a UYI piano era sounding album. Not everything has to be synthed and keyboards and stupid shit.

Guns N' Roses lacked bite and attitude. I don't they can ever replicate that now, as they are older and drama/tension creates special thing sometimes, but maybe they can come close? Who knows. There's a lot they could do, release and write about.

Chinese Democracy doesn't even come close to either UYI album. It just seems forced as an album and it is clearly patched up sounding. It does sound fresh and unique, but at the same time it sounds like it is in chunks... like 3 different groupings of songs. Bloated songs like TWAT and Shackler's (the sound of it makes it bloated) and Prostitute...

Hell the only songs on CD that stand next to anything Guns N' Roses before 1997 is "This I Love", "Chinese Democracy" and "Sorry" maybe. Everything else is just bland to good. Nothing special.

What a great, original, thought provoking response!

Fun fact- Years ago there was a rule about responding merely using an emoticon- check the rules, its probably still there.

What part of "I'm aware that Stimson didn't mix, master, or produce the album" is causing you confusion? Its a pretty straightforward statement.

How many people sill say that their favorite version is still RIR III?  I know I I'm one of them.

That's a good, tight rocker.  Its also under 3 minutes, start to finish. 

Even the 2002 version, which adds more to the solo portion, I still prefer it to any version with the intro, live or studio.

Hahaha.  Love the analogy.

My personal feeling is that people are overeffusive with the love because they feel that is their duty, to pushback against what they see at the unfair hate it gets.

Even if its not your bag, you'd have to be crazy to concede there are not good songs on there.  But I'm with you that I don't need to go totally overboard about it.

Every list has to have a last spot.  Every team has to have a last pick.  Way of the world.

I'm one of those who thinks that Chinese Democracy (the album, I mean) could have been stripped back a fair bit to its benefit.  Allowing the songs a bit more freedom to breathe, if you get my drift.*  Even so, I don't think there's anything especially wrong with the into to Chinese Democracy (the song).  I listen to a lot of metal, and self-indulgent intros that go on for too long are hardly uncommon in many kinds of metal, so the one on CD maybe seems less egregious to me than it maybe otherwise might... but even so, I like it.  It's like after so many years of waiting, you put the record on for the first time, and Axl's still going to tease the wait out for a wee bit longer.  Works well, methinks.





*Bj?rk's album Med?lla was released almost entirely a cappella for this reason.  When recording it, she found that the songs were getting lost under the layers and layers of instrumentation she kept adding to them, so she stripped them right back to let them stand on their own.  Not that I think CD would have been good a cappella, but sometimes less is more...

Ok, Ill translate the emoticon for you:

"Im again caught up in a useless conversation with Emily. She will always want to have the last response even if she stops making sense. "

You are the one confused. We are all aware Stinson didnt mix master or produce the album. You're just twisting shit into oblivion to seem like a rebel once again.

Im not going there, I like sanity, thank you.
You can have the last word.

Ahhh- so you translated your emoticon into a personal attack because you are unable to intelligently debate or discuss the topic- gotcha!  :hihi:

Not "twisting" a thing, was merely stating since Stinson wasn't involved in the mixing/mastering/production his comments should be taken from that viewpoint...not that difficult of a concept to comprehend or grasp.

I'm a rebel???

They are like my kids..  its hard to pick a favorite because I love all of them.     UYI is very nostaligic and has masterpieces like November Rain and Estranged, which might give that an edge.. but CD has some great tracks, which in my opinion, fit well with the rest of the catalogue.

For myself, UYI albums said laid back and fun rock n roll mostly. It just feels more wide open and crazy.

CD feels really dense for me, like thick and dense to listen to. I have to be in the correct mood to deal with it.

It's still a great album.

Would be my pick too. AFD is one the best albums ever made!  :drool: