Here Today... Gone To Hell!

So it looks like the CD era has closed. With the reunion on full swing for sure now and rumors flying over a tour and now a special LA show possibly in Feb., what do you think about the 1998-2014 CD era? 2015 is left out simply because they didn't do anything at all. I started with 1998 because by that point everyone was out of the band besides Axl, Tobias and Dizzy Reed I believe, and Tommy Stinson joined that year, so in theory that was when the New Guns N' Roses started.

So what are your thoughts on this era? What are your favorite moments? How does CD hold up 7 years removed from its release?

Lots of touring and it introduced us to some great musicians...As for me I grew to like the 3 guitar approach in the live setting.....CD had some fantastic moments, stuff I would never have imagined on a GNR album and some that sounded like expansions from the UYI era...I surely will miss the CD era of GNR, but am anticipating the next chapter..

Still think CD is their third best album (after Appetite and Illusion 2). Still listen to it all the time and am always hearing more depth and new things in it. One of the most underrated albums of all time in my view.

I loved the whole CD area.

I still listen to the songs 15 years after we first heard some of them. So yeah, I think it holds up pretty good. The guitar work is awesome and I'm always listening with headphones paying close attention to the details.

I was fascineted about the CD era with all the mistery and new elements being throwing out all over the place. I still hope for more songs of that era to surface.

What "rumors" flying around?  From that alternative nation article?  Not saying they won't play a show in LA before Coachella, but what kind of sources does alternative nation have?

I honestly don't think they have any verifiable sources for much of what they post-. But- the things they post get re-posted by forums, so the circle continues on and on.

...the CD era was interesting from a rock and roll history perspective. NO DOUBT. However, it did leave me with a lot of "shoulda coulda woulda's"....we had some top shelf musicians and a lot of potential. Amazing moments and cringe worthy moments but I guess that is Gnr throughout their whole history. My one big regret is that Axl didn't give us his full vision and release all that music at one time. Shock and Awe so to say.

Anyhow, we will hear that music at some point but who knows what changes will have been made. I have faith though and can't wait to hear what these songs ultimately sound like.  :peace:

Hey,,, Hey, Hey,, Calm !!!

- New Music With LineUp 2016
- New Music From ChinDem Era

 :smoking:

It was an interesting period.  It gave us one very good album (so far...), but as someone who didn't mind too much that Slash and co. weren't around*, there's a sense of frustration and "what if" about how it all happened (or didn't).  That a cast of such excellent musicians collaborated for such a long time and only released one album in that time is a damn shame.  But really, we'll never be able to assess the period fully without hearing what else they made in that time.  I hope we get that chance.



*Not that I object to them being back, not by any means.  I was reconciled to GNR without them, and looking forward to new music.

100% conflicted about the legacy. Really too many thoughts on the matter. Just happy we are where we are right now with Slash and Duff back in the mix.

These rumors. Chill out. Billboard reported as has like a lot of others about a stadium tour, and the LA show is from alternative yes...

Chill out?  Was I upset?

 I feel the same way.

As for the legacy of CHinese Democracy on the positive side, I think that Chinese Democracy reminded recording artists about sound quality. The record is crystal clear and it had an enormous contrast with death magnetic, Metallica's album, which despite being good had a terrible sound. Loudness had been on a steady rise up to that point and I think those two records made a difference.

On the negative side. Overproduction, and label intrusion, which Ive found out recently are both related.

No artist should ask a suit whether he likes their music.

1. I discovered many great musicians, who came to GNR and went out again.
2. I discovered many side projects, either from ex-members or their ex-bands.
3. I discovered many, many other bands - because without GNR active, I just had to start searching for other bands and other styles.

without GNR effectively on hiatus almost all the time, this wouldn't be even possible - and man it was a journey! and still is 8)

What do you mean? Did Chinese sound get influenced by label in the final mix?

It's the era of the band where I grew up. Kind of.  :hihi:
Lots and lots of great memories that relate to the album and the tour.

The album is still amazing and every time you listen to it, it still sounds fresh.  8)



/jarmo

From a national view it is looked on as a negative or down time overall.  The CD LP was enjoyed by the rabid fans, but many casual fans of the band and music barely paid attention to it shortly after release.  To many here that era will go down as a great one, as many enjoyed the powerful live performances, and the quiality musicians Axl brought on board.  Esp in the time between 06-10 where Axl was performing at a VERY high level.  CD while it didnt have the massive hits was very solid, and had a lot of nuances for repeated listening. 

So to answer the proposed question it all depends on whose point of view.  The general nation feeling or the feeling from the hard core fan base?

For me CD is a masterpiece.
The majority of the songs are epic,lyrics-guitars-sound quality and everything about this album is legendary.
Also it marked a period when let's say "true" fans got "onboard" and the rest....didn't. Being patient for all those years payed off.

Excelent Friend !!!

 :beer:

It's True !!!

 :beer:

for me, a big part of enjoying legendary bands like zeppelin and gnr is that common denominator known by every stoned and untameable beard weilding rock and roll sage (aka uncle__) as rock and roll lore. it is larger than life and out of the ordinary, excessive, and downright captivating. unintangible as its value may be, the cd era was filled to the brim, overflowing with, ready to burst and ejaculating from every one of its innumerable and bottomless blackholes and black boxes, more countless than the  fragmented shifting political alliances of 18th century madagascar, this otherworldly substance, more holy than the omnipresent active element Okidanokh amen. i wouldnt be surprised if axls private vault radiated and pulsed, and when unlocked, sucked nearby people inside like unexpecting players of Jumanji. a film or book conveying the details of this era, those both known and unkown to everyday and hardcore fans alike, would no doubt be among the most fascinating stories surrounding an artist, his vision, and his journey ever told.

the greatest part of it all is that when people look back at this time, they have unlimited access to a tangible piece of the legend, or you could even say, the very heart of the legend; the album itself. Chinese Motherfuckin Democracy. and as for that album, if you have the ears to listen, it will speak for itself.

A placeholder.

A way to keep the homefires burning, and an opportunity to continue to listen to and appreciate my favorite frontman of alltime.

For me, it's a very conflicted, ambivalent record, and I love that about it.  It so perfectly captures the difficult to reconcile feelings of past failed relationships / tortured experiences.  Regret, resignation/defeat, justification, anger, retribution, needing to get on with life, resoluteness... so much stuff... and never sure which feeling among all those is prevailing.  And what's also great is how the musical layered complexity matches the complexity and paradoxes of the album's themes.  It's a very personal, intense record for me, not something I can listen to casually during my mass transit commute. 

I don't know about the legacy of NuGnR but for me personally I got an amazing album out of it and got to see them play live 4 times. Since the reunion was announced I've found myself listening to the old stuff much more and its sounding pretty fresh because for the last 7 years I've been listening to CD whenever I get the chance to listen to music. Nu GnR, Classic GnR, Reformed GnR I'm easy any way as long as Axl is happy and performing, new music will be awesome whenever he is ready.

It's an interesting but difficult to answer question because there are several avenues to attack it from.

1. What does it mean to me
2. What does it mean to Axl/the band
3. What does it mean to the bands legacy in the industry

For me it means a few different things... First it came out within days of my thirtieth birthday, so what was funny is nearly everyone I knew got it for me on either CD or Vinyl. Secondly my first child was born a few months earlier so it is one of those things where the lyrical content doesn't line up exactly, but as soon as I hear those songs (in album form of course) I am transported back to that time. For that the album will always hold a special place in my heart. Thirdly though there is a little disappointment, some of it falls on my because I gave in to the temptation of the leaks which sort of killed the surprise of the album and in some cases I thought the rawer older demo's sound better than the final product... the wait built up so much anticipation that for me wasn't met... but being transported beck to a time when my daughter was months old by slapping on some headphones or driving to work is really cool so that for me outweighs any negatives I can find my nit picking.

For the band I can't begin to imagine or put into words what each individual song or riff that they added means, but it is obvious from the journey it took to reach us that it is very powerful and important to everyone who participated in it's creation.

As far as CD's impact on the bands overall legacy within the industry/music scene... That is really up for debate/individual interpretation. Some people will point to strong reviews and strong (for the time period) album sales. Others will point to typically sarcastic articles written about the band that usually poke fun at the revolving lineup and the lack of 'classic' (don't want to bring down the wrath of the 'original' truthers by using the wrong word there) members... The 'look' of the band and the spottiness of the performances where they were available for large public consumption (2002 VMA, Bridge School, etc...) tend to mark this period. While I understand that times change and sounds change a lot of people were expecting something that sounded like a GnR, VR, or even Slash record... what they got was different and wasn't given a chance. When people outside of these boards get asked to rank albums, I would think it would fall dead last... same could be said for songs, the general public would list Jungle, SCOM, Paradise City, Patience, Don't Cry, November Rain, YCBM, and other songs that to this day get rock radio play over anything from CD because it unfortunately never made a wide splash. I know people who bought it that gave it one listen and never picked it up again... I also know people like me that own multiple copies from being gifted it (so you have to wonder how much that means to sales...)

I do think people need to fall back to question one, what does it mean to you?, and not put to much stock in what it means for the bands legacy with anyone else... the fact that it lacks a member as largely know, recognized, and respected like Slash will always be a black mark... but that shouldn't ruin your enjoyment of it.

According to Tommy it was. Let me see whether I can find the quote.

"It was a bummer. Most of the songs that are on the record now were done 10 f*cking years ago. But all the talking heads in the mix were saying, Make 'em sound better! Make 'em sound better!' So we kept redoing this and that. And it ended up coming back down to the same f*cking songs that they were 10 years ago, except that now they were a super-dense mishmash of a bunch of instrumentation."

Looked like you were questioning what I said... so yeah chill out.

Well put. I got into Guns N' Roses in the summer of 2000. Which was a fantastic time to get into them with all of the hype and the comeback in RiR etc...

It does sound very fresh still.

I guess I'll put down what I think of it in general...

The album itself is very good. Was it worth the 10 year wait? Or 8 year wait however you want to look at it? NO.

Then again, NO ALBUM is. That is the biggest thing with this album, people attach it to delays and being late and the most expensive record ever etc... For what it is... it is very good, but not great I think. It has some filler on there, and the bad part about it for me is that we'd heard like 5 songs off the album for years live on and off. So when it finally came out, you were kinda getting a EP in some ways. Studio versions were obviously better and had a finished feel to them sure... but you weren't getting an entire 14 new songs.

I was and still am very happy that it came out. I had 3 copies of it at 1 point and I still have the vinyl of it too. The writing credits are incredibly interesting to read lmao.

I do think that as time passes the album will get more praise. Like 10 years from now I think it won't make any all time great album lists or anything, but I think it will be in that "underrated" album discussion.

To compare the quality of music with OTHER Gn'R releases... It is obviously better than Lies, which wasn't an actual LP though. It's better than the cover album TSI sure. that is obvious too, but is it better than AFD and either UYI album?

No, I don't think so. It CLEARLY isn't better than Appetite, and Use Your Illusion II. Maybe it is even with UYI I? I don't know. It is either close to even with it, or even with it. It is still hard for me to say.

Taste is subjective, have talked with some people that prefer CD to appetite- people like what they like.

yeah Tastes are different.

For Me as a kid I had only heard Wttj, Sweetchild and Paradise city on the TV, I bought UYI on cassette and loved it 100%. So I thought hey Im going to go and listen to all of appetite. And at first it was like an acquired taste, I didnt like all of the songs immediatly they way I did the 3 singles, of course after repeated listening I ended up loving all songs. But I still prefer UYI.

Agreed, that's why I always wonder about these types of topics. I feel the person asking the question is just looking for people to validate their feelings either positive or negative on the topic. Which is why in my last post I said be happy that it means what it means to you (the listener)... If you ask 100 people and 99 agree with you, the loudest one always seems to be the one that disagrees and you feel the need to get dragged into an argument to change their mind... Music/art is highly subjective it's in the eye or the ear of the beholder, but we always look for a metric to measure it, and when that doesn't validate our opinion we want to devalue that metric...

I'll never forget when I was in college and Alanis Morissette released her first album which also was around the same period that the Hootie and the Blowfish debut hit... shortly they were overtaking AFD for the best selling debut album of all time. I was wondering how stupid people could be, there was no possible way people thought that was better... now 20+ years later I am laughing that I let it bother me for a second, but that is what music and fandom will do to you sometimes.

Right of course that is my opinion... but universally people like AFD to CD

If you think CD is a better album than Appetite then that's fine. That is your taste... but you can't really compare an album that took under 1 month to record and is their best universally acclaimed album over CD right?

I mean am I crazy here? To say CD is better than AFD is simply your opinion too, and that is fine, but I think no matter how you look at it you're fucking nuts if you think CD is a better album than AFD.

It simply isn't. Yeah that is my opinion, based on boat loads of facts. Oh yes... facts. Sales, reviews... impact, impression etc...

R E C O R D I N G time...

10 years to 1 month or so?

Yeah.. it is my opinion right? Get real. It is ALMOST everyone's opinion...

yep you just lost.

I can't believe I am even involving myself in this and taking a counterpoint... I agree with your assessment of AFD over CD... but that is my opinion. I grew up in the 80's, it was the first album that I ever fell in love with front to back For me there is no comparison, it is AFD and everything else.

BUT... you will notice I said 'for me' 'I' 'my opinion'... that is what this is all about. Take out album sales because they don't mean the same thing, streaming and illegal downloads cut into that business a long time ago. Someone may have seen this band for the first time in the mid 2000's, so they know the new lineup, they love their sound and tone. When the album came out that was 'their' version of the band. They listen to CD back to front without finding a weak point. How do you tell that person they are wrong? Is it because it isn't your favorite, my favorite, or Slash's favorite? How does that make them wrong?

Not going to get involved in any of the arguments here, but for me the CD era is one of the most exciting/bizarre/disappointing eras of any band I've ever seen.  I'll explain:

Exciting
In my later years in high school my friends and I had GNR on rotation CONSTANTLY.  We were high school kids working a summer job at the local pool club in town.  We drank after hours and blasted GNR and talked endlessly about what Axl was up to.  When Spin magazine released the 'What the World Needs Now is Axl Rose' article we went batshit.  We analyzed every word of every interview in that magazine about the band.  When I went to college my passion for the band continued.  The House of Blues show happened and if I had the money at the time I would have been there without a doubt.  Sadly it didn't happen.  Then the VMAs happened, and although it was for all intents and purposes a subpar showing from Axl, it was so exciting.  The 2002 tour was announced, I had 2nd row tickets to see the band in South Carolina as I was in college in North Carolina at the time.  I could not wait to see the band live finally.  Then... well....

Bizarre  
The Philly riot happened and the tour was off.  I was D-E-V-A-S-T-A-T-E-D.  Then we didn't hear from the band for years.  That period was definitely the darkest years of GNR.  Everything that Axl had worked so hard for was seemingly gone without a trace.  We never got updates from the band, we knew nothing.  Buckethead decided to bolt.  I was so positive that a new album was coming in 2002 and I was convinced it would never see the light of day.  Mike Piazza of all people leaked IRS out of nowhere.  The 2006 tour was announced as were the Hammerstein shows.  We never knew who replaced Buckethead until the night of the first NYC show.  Welcome to the band Bumblefoot!  I attended 3 of the 4 Hammerstein shows and I was feeling great.  The shows were amazing, Axl sounded friggin phenomenal, but after those Hammerstein shows GNR kept playing essentially the same setlist at all shows.

Disappointing
The same set lists continued.  How could a band play essentially the same set list in the same order for over a decade?  CD was released and I was so excited.  I preordered the CD and vinyl and my then girlfriend/now wife went with me to pick up the record.  I had avoided almost all of the leaks because I wanted to hear Axl's vision of the album without having preconceptions.  I took off work the next day and we pounded Nightrain all night while listening to the record.  I loved it.... until I gave it a few more listens.  I have not listened to CD in years now.  I listen to There Was a Time every now and again, but that is the only song I really listen to.  DJ Ashba joined the band and Finck was out.  I avoided all set lists post-CD so that I could be surprised by the new set when I finally got to see GNR.  I saw them at the Meadowlands in NJ and had never watched footage of any show, I vanished from all GNR message boards for years.  I HATED DJ Ashba instantly.  He completely ruined the band live for me.  I went to the UCAP shows in NYC (all of them) and while they were fun and I had a good time, it was still the same setlist and DJ was there.  

In summary, the CD era of the band for me was like this old saying:  In like a lion, out like a lamb.  I am glad its over honestly, but I still look back fondly at those early days of the CD-era band.  Maybe its because I am a sentimental guy and I associate it with my youth, but I remember how pumped I was for GNR at the time.  I hope this new chapter in GNR brings that same excitement for me.  Right now I am cautiously optimistic and I am hoping these shows actually happen.  We'll see I guess!

I could be wrong, but from what I've seen and heard the setlist was anything but "The same" the past 10 years

Ummm really?  You are telling me that you couldn't guess and probably be right 90% of the time what the next song in their set would be since the HOB show?  I think I can count on one hand how many times they didn't open with Chinese Democracy or WTTJ.  And those were usually special shows that the public was not invited to.  I wish I was like you and felt like I was seeing something new everytime I saw the band.  It was the set list issue that caused me to skip Randalls Island and Brooklyn Bowl when the band came through here, and I am glad I did. 

Hold on. This is about Chinese Democracy's legacy.

I'm not gonna have yet another thread turn into a Dead Horse topic....
Lately every other thread seems to turn into the kind of stuff we've discussed plenty in the last 10-15 years or so. Sometimes it's hard to tell there's actually any recent news.

Now, back on topic.  : ok:



/jarmo

CD Era was very exciting in 2001 after RIR. I do feel there was a lot of wasted time. Its a shame only 1 album came to light. 2006 was a great time as was their return to touring in 09.

I personally am super excited for this next chapter. People ask, can GNR become relevant in 2016? Fuck yeah!

As far as it's legacy... like it or not...It's always going to be known as the GNR record without Slash Duff and Izzy. I think that is obvious.

Some great songs on this album... that will most likely never get their fair shake in hard rock history because of the above.

There will never ever be an article or a breakdown or a review of CD in the future without the mention that it was missing those guys.

But.... I was responding to what the legacy of Chinese Democracy is to me and explaining why.  Perhaps next time I will just say "Awesome" or "shitty" with no explanation  ???

From 2003-2006 or so I was pretty sad about everything.

I had tickets to the Nashville show in 2006 that was postponed to Jan 2007 then cancelled... I was really down.

I had to wait unti 2011 to see them finally.

I'm not saying it is wrong based on preference. People can like whatever they want. In the end it is opinion. No one can definitively state that AFD is worse than CD though.

But yes, as Jarmo stated. Back on topic people.

I think the whole setlist conversation has ts place elsewhere.
Sorry that you find the setlist discussion interesting in 2016 and it's such a big part of the album's legacy for you.




/jarmo

First - Peace :peace:

2nd - I think it was because you reacted kinda nasty for no reason.
I really wasn't starting anything - even said "I could be wrong" - sometimes these things don't translate well...

Back on point!

I still think we will hear some CD track like Better in a movie somehow. It happened before: Bohemian Rhapsody was never at the top charts in US untill the Wayne's World came out with that scene in the 90s. :P

Thanks. I've seen this one before, just didn't remember about it untill you posted it.

I don't know, but it doesn't seem too hard to just strip down the layers and use whatever you think it sounds good on the mix.  I remember reading Axl talking about the record here at the ending of 2008, when someone asked about Scraped leftover scratch or Bumble's ending solo in Catcher that ends with a dry cut... He said something like "every sound in the album was meant to be there".

I think the album is awesome. I've played songs from it for many people--on jukeboxes, at work, in my car... and what I found was that the people who thought CD sucked actually thought it was pretty fucking awesome...once they listened to it! So many people dismissed it because they "heard" that it sucked or whatever. First of all, what a fucking lame reason not to give something a listen. Secondly, their loss. I enjoyed every show I saw during the CD era. I wish I would've seen more. Of course, like all of us here, I only wish we could've heard more of what the band recorded. If it's true that the band is going to perform CD era songs (& I REALLY hope they do!), I hope that when these "fans" that climb back aboard hear the songs, they'll think they're awesome and check out the rest of the album. The funny thing is, a lot of those people will probably think they're hearing some kickass brand new song, only to find out its from Chinese Democracy. I personally believe that CD will stand the test of time and get the respect it deserves.

Unfortunate to hear, but sadly this does happen. Lends to the notion that if this album didn't have Axl or the Gn'r name associated with it, some naive folks
would think differently - which is kind of hard to fathom but it's sadly true in some cases

For me, it was just good to hear Axl sing again. There are some good songs, but not great. Once when the album aged, I stopped listening to its entirety.  If I do listen to it, it's just for TWAT, Better, Street of Dreams, CD and I.R.S.  I think it was overproduced. As far as the band,  I'm glad that Buckethead and Finck are gone. As I stated before I did like DJ and Bumblefoot since they were most likely to bring back that GNR sound.

CD is the GNR album that i listen to the most of all of their albums. After more than 7 years (that went fast, that sunday morning dosent seem long ago at all) Its not because its the newest one.

So it has held up great for me. Considering both Illusions are my favorite records, not only by gnr but by anyone. Chinese is almost just as great.

You're telling me to Strip down the layers? I don't know how to do that? :(

On scrapped I believe they where playing with Cut n' paste creatively, it doesnt bother me, I actually think it was original and cool. Catcher does feel dense though with too much going on and I think its a perfect example of what Tommy was talking about.

That 2001-02 lineup had massive potential. It was a super group. I'd love to hear the Beavan sessions because that is Chinese Democracy before the label decided to screw the pooch and play a big role in sending it to purgatory. Axl wanted it out then but Iovine and whoever else was involved in cluster fucking it should've been horse whipped for pretty much forcing them to continually add layer after layer to the same damn songs.  Stinson's post CD release interviews were eye opening to say the least and Axl also briefly mentioned some of that shit in the forum chats.       



Hell...Buckmaster and Beltrami worked on completely different songs yet on the finished album wound up being on the same songs together. Strange.

Beltrami:


[GNR] was sort of just work for hire. [...] I met with Axl and he played me these songs, asked me my ideas about them, and I told him what I thought they needed. They gave me four songs to orchestrate. [...] A song called 'Seven,' which is the one [...] I actually wrote a guitar part [on]. There was one called 'Thyme,' one called 'The General,' one called 'Leave Me Alone.'" (Marco Beltrami, IGN, 07/20/03)


"Leave Me Alone," "Seven," and "The General" could also feature on the new album. These three A-listed songs were worked on by Marco Beltrami, especially "Seven," which Marco deems as the best of the three songs. It has also been reported that Marco worked on a fourth track, "Thyme." However, this song was not worked on subsequent to Marco's work in October 2002. (Jeff Leeds, Sp1at website, 06/05)


-----

Buckmaster:


"Paul Buckmaster, a British arranger [...] met Rose in July at LA's Village Recorder studio complex. 'Axl was supposed to be there at 3pm, but turned up at 5,' says Buckmaster. [...] 'Axl [had] recently returned from Malaysia or Indonesia. [...] He [...] ran me through four songs that he wanted to put strings over. [...] We'd be listening to a guitar part and he'd say, 'That's not nearly loud enough'. Anyone else would have said that it was the loudest guitar sound ever recorded.'" (The Times, 03/18/05)

"According to Buckmaster's official discography/list of credits, which can be viewed at this location, he has served as the arranger and conductor on the tracks 'Blues', 'TWAT', 'Madagascar' and 'Prostitute'." (Blabbermouth, 11/23/04)

-----------------

Chinese Democracy album credits:

Street of Dreams:

Paul Buckmaster - Orchestra
Marco Beltrami - Orchestra

There Was A Time:

Paul Buckmaster - Orchestra
Marco Beltrami - Orchestra

Madagascar:

Paul Buckmaster - Orchestra
Marco Beltrami - Orchestra


Prostitute:

Paul Buckmaster - Orchestra
Marco Beltrami - Orchestra


This I Love:

Marco Beltrami - Orchestra

-------------------------------

What happened?




Yep. Tommy made other comments regarding that as well.  Ezrin also mentioned this aspect of the tracks...

I agreed to go there immediately and listen to a bunch of stuff. What I heard was ? I don?t know how to say this without be insulting, I don?t want to be insulting because he worked very hard on it ? but what I heard was something that he had painted over too many times. So, by the time I heard it, the original content was lost and it was just a highly produced piece of something?

---------

Ezrin was harsh but I bet that 2001 album(s) is incredible. I'd take it over a reunion and/or CD2 with Ashba and Ron any day of the week.

Best thing about the reunion is some of that material might get released in some form. I assume the label is going to want to capitalize on the reunion buzz.

I tend to wonder if those were 'working titles' from the time they touched them. As an example Street of Dreams was The Blues... and he uses 'Street of Dreams' in one line... Prostitute was only used once in that song also could there have been a different title? Where 'Leave me Alone' is a line from Madagascar, could that have been an early working title? is Thyme 'There was a Time'?

Yeah some songs did have working titles(Lies They Tell for Scraped) but its more likely that both their arrangements(at least some of it) were layered into the same songs, especially when taking into account how various people have described the continual additions of layers to the material throughout the saga. Once people started making their own mixes with those Rock Band files you could hear what are pretty much entire songs buried underneath. I've heard mixes that sound nothing like they do on the album.

You really think Seven, Thyme, The General, and Leave Me Alone were working titles for The Blues, Madagascar, TWAT, and Prostitute?

It's hard to know what to think about it all at this point. Maybe when we're a bit further removed from it all and we see how/if CD is absorbed into any ongoing version of Guns things will be a bit clearer. Yes, I loved the album. And the 2010 show I attended, and the 2006 one. 2002 seemed very, very different to me than what we ended up with. I think Buckethead's departure had an extremely significant effect on changing Axl's vision of what post-Slash Guns could be.

As long as perhaps 75% of what the various CD era lineups recorded remains unreleased I think there'll always be a portion of fans who think there's unfinished business and can't quite put the lid on the era. But largely the fanbase has moved on from it, as has the media, and seemingly now, the band.

The General and Seven I'm not sure... I wouldn't doubt though that Madagascar and TWAT had different or working titles... after all he has two songs from the same album that get their titles from basically a single word or phrase said once during the song (Street of Dreams and Prostitute) based on that it's not impossible to think that Madagascar could have had a working title 'Leave Me Alone' as it is a line from the song.

At the same time Use Your Illusion has The Garden and Garden of Eden so it isn't incomprehensible to think that Thyme and There was a Time were different songs from the same session. I just picture Axl or other band members talking in shorthand and calling There Was A Time, 'Thyme' or something like that...

This is the reason why I would love for Axl to sit down and either write a full memoir with Del James, or just a breakdown of the story behind the CD sessions.

The name TWAT goes back to the late 90s. Madagascar had been performed a couple years before we ever heard of Thyme or Leave Me Alone. The General definitely cant be a working title for one of the four, same as Seven obviously.


From the Axl chats....

The bridge in "Elvis Presley and the Monster of Soul aka The Soul Monster (working title Leave Me Alone)" which will no doubt end up "Soul Monster".

Asked which song titles are real.....

A: Ides Of March, Oklahoma, Atlas Shrugged,  Oh My God, Silkworms , Down By The Ocean (Izzy), Leave Me Alone, Seven , The General , Thyme , Quick Song , Zodiac Most all titles subject to change w/out warning and r considered working titles. (Axl Rose, chinesedemocracy.com, Dec. 2008)

One of these days I have to go back and re-read his chats from that time frame...

for quite a comprehensive reference, see this post http://www.chinesedemocracy.com/forum/index.php/topic,45008.0.html
it's possibly not 100% complete, as some more leaks are out there, but the most valuable info are links to first mentions about songs.

that is some really deep insight. i have never picked up on this aspect of the record, how the paradoxical themes and musical complexity were so complimentary to one another. very good find, thank you for that! this is an all around interesting thread.

also love comas posts about subjectivity and not worrying about what it means to anyone else. thats definitely something important to remember.

it reminds me of being a kid and liking something. someone else doesnt like it and says "why do you even like that?", and then you feel insecure because you dont really know why, you just do. next thing you know you're going along with it, "yeah, i guess it is kind of stupid." but someday you just have to grow up and be independent in your likes and dislikes.

Not to hijack the thread and annoy anyone, however this is quite extensive list with references to almost every interview in regard to the sessions over the years and even used/published by Classic Rock magazine.

http://www.gnrevolution.com/viewtopic.php?id=5059

No, haha. I was talking about whoever mixed the album. :)

I agree with Scraped, not with Catcher. If you compare to the demo with Brian May, the song was actually rearranged by Bumblefoot and Brain in its core, lefting only the backbones: Axl melodies/lyrics, Tommy bass line, Dizzy piano and some of Robin's lead (after the 1st solo and during the chorus). Then Brain reworked the drums and Bumble recorded almost all the rhythm guitar and solos. To me, it actually sounds a lot "cleaner" than other songs like Madagascar and TWAT with  mudded guitars.

There is one title there I can't believe anyone took it seriously:

Yorch: I love Oh my God, but it really sounds like a demo, why? I'm sure we all would love a new version.

Axl: Because that's all it was, only at the time having just got it together only Jimmy Iovine knew that who wanted it to sell their soundtrack. I saw segments of the movie which were good. As a whole later not so much but it wasn't ready yet then. I did write an experimental piece inspired by the bits I'd seen called "Daddy Can the Devil do Mommy and me?"

It's an obvious joke about that scene in the movie.

well, of what we know, the overhauled version of Oh My God sounds similar to the old release (damn, was that 17 YEARS AGO???), only with added very prominent guitar layers. or maybe just one layer, I don't remember it correctly.

That guitar layer was Bumble's. I think those leaked tracks were just a guide to the soundboard guy to send the right mix to Bumble's in-ear piece in a live performance - which as we all know didn't happen. But we did see some footage of the setlist rehearsed with Going Down, OMG and Silkworms.

hmmm you might be right, it really sounds like some in-ear mix, how could I forget the old times, when 2002 in-ear mix bootlegs were floating around :D and yup, it sounds very much like Bumble's guitar. about Going Down, I'm not sure how to think about the song. it's much different from all others. yes, there seems to be a prominent guitar, much like the other samples, but it sounds like it was recorded in completely different studio or even year. and even more - it sounds spot on, like it was recorded during short times, without numerous overhauls, re-recordings and added layers, as was the case of most other ChiDem songs.

I don't know if we can really talk about leaks here, but well... I think Going Down is different in style, but it has as many layers as CD songs, and it's just a demo not properly mixed. It's just that the leak has poor sound quality, but I can hear Robin's guitar (intro riff duet with Bumble and end of the solo stretching to the chorus), Bucket (outro with Robin) and even DJ (I think the solo is a duet with Bumble). Also, there's some accoustic guitar and keys going on.

oh, I'm sorry. in case this talk is not allowed here, mods please delete this :-X

As of now, I put Chinese Democracy as GN'R's fifth best album. Only a few songs that I enjoy listening to compared to the majority of songs I enjoy from the other albums. Overall, CD just isn't my genre/sound/type of music, but for everyone who places CD at the top or near the top of their album list, good for you and continue to enjoy listening.

Thank you sir!  Agreed, can't get caught up in opinion validation, but when in doubt, I am right and everyone else is wrong.   :hihi:

Sorry everyone in advance, but I'm compelled to post this:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfbKGY1z0yE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfbKGY1z0yE)   :D

Maybe its the mix, Im under the impression that the vocals are drowned by the rhythm guitars. Maybe its the effect they gave the guitars. LIke a chorus effect or something. Like many people I prefer the Brian May version, though not necessarily the solo. Im listening again right now: There's also too many background vocals and vocal harmonies :S The bass is a bit intrusive. There's a piano that doesn't make much sense (like at the end of november rain, just random notes)? Around minute 2 it gets better though.. It doesnt sound very clean to me though.  I think its a great song, but I'm not crazy about how it sounds.

What is weird though, is that Im not really against adding layer after layer after layer to a song, I think it works on some songs. I think Twat and Madagascar works well.

I too prefer the arrangement on the demo. I also like how less intrusive is May's guitar in the outro and I really loved the guitar sound in the rhythm.

I like Madagascar live because it sounds cleaner. In the album, at the ending, the riffs sounded mudded with all the orchestra and keys and vocals going on. TWAT is way better, but I still think it should have less power chord layers in the outro. I can hear the very faint guitars doing some nice fills (I think those were Axl's?) in the right speaker, but why the hell it's so buried in the mix? I dunno, doesn't seem to add much to be that way.

Yeah I always though Madagascar sounded better live a little bit too.

I think aside from the Vocals, it has more Oomph! it flows better, maybe due to the drummer which live sounds more organic and less perfectionist.

Definitley, it sounds good on the album, but live it feels like the guitars blow up . I always thought that 2002 VMA performance of it was really really good.

I prefer The rock In Rio 2001 , with ''hopefully it will express my sentiments''  :hihi:

that video actually made me blush. reminded me of watching muppet babies as a kid, and how emberassed id get when someome else was in the room and the characters broke out into a song. dude has a great voice though.


that is the classy way to do it! none of that "cd is not as good as so and so, im right and youre wrong so there!" 3rd grader shit. thank you for that.

I put the whole era of CD as a lost oppertunity the band should have kicked on after the rest they clearly needed but instead it imploded as we all know,the new era band while technically excellent were not the band everyone wanted to see,such a shame,as for the record itself its a good solid record but perhaps like Pink Floyds "the final cut"album it should have been an Axl solo album as the floyd album should have been a Roger Waters solo album.

Ah well all what if and whatevers

Good point on The Final Cut comparison - which I like quite a bit...but CD's use of so many different musicians and the obviously heavy guitar focus do make it a bit different...but vision-wise I'm with you.

I think Axl really tried to put his vision of what Guns N' Roses should be at the time. Maybe if it was a trully Axl solo album he would have made a lot of things different, like less guitars and more eletronic stuff.

I still have CD in my car and put in on occasionally.

What I have found with alot of my friends is that the album has grown on them over time.

Good observation Mysteron,
I keep a copy in my car too and many of my friends have grown to love it- with no overblown hype and no biased voices the music speaks for itself beautifully.

I like a lot of the songs in theory. I think the live versions absolutely kill the album versions. Tommy once said something along the lines of that the label basically had them keep redoing the songs and adding stuff on until it was just a "dense layer of instrumentation" - and he's sadly right. There's a lot of great ideas and beautiful melodies, but it's buried under so much stuff...I wish we would've gotten a "stripped down" CD. The demos from circa 1999 or so that leaked are actually great songs.

CD - Great rocker, doesn't need that overly long intro. I think Ron's rhythm parts add too much.
 
Shackler's - great song, catchy, needed a faster tempo and a bit rawer mix to be perfect

Better - The demo from 2006 is perfect

Street of Dreams - The version from Rio 2001 is beautiful, and I wish they'd kept this arrangment.

If The World - Again, great song but would've been better stripped down

Catcher in the Rye - again, great song but the 99 demo is better (and no, not because of Brian May)

Scraped - I love this song, except for the intro. Groovy, heavy rock - this is kinda what I was hoping all of CD would be.

Riad - Like this song a lot, but prefer the rawer 2002 live versions

Sorry - Don't like this song at all.

I.R.S. - Good song but I much prefer the grungier '99 demo

Madagascar - Again, Rio 2001 is the best version of this song. Axl's falsetto vocals I feel fit this song better than the rasp he uses on the studio version

This I Love - Love this song a lot, but feel the guitar solo wasn't necessary

Prostitute - It's okay...Not my favorite.

Can I say that I totally disagree with the above post. CD is a total masterpiece just the way it is. Still love to play it in my car.

I think a lot of people had listened too much of either the demo versions or the live versions of the songs before the actual studio album was finally released. So of course what you're used to hear is better/rawrer whatever.. than the final version is/was. But that being said I do agree that some songs (CD, Scraped, Madagascar) work better live than studio but that's only a good thing IMO. And I've found that Chi-Dem works best either on vinyl or/and with headphones. I hear new things everytime I listen to it that way. 
:beer:

THERE "WASN'T" A TIME? :hihi:

Haha  :hihi:  Apparently not!

T.W.A.Time I like....BUT I don't like the new intro, or the general overproduction on pre-solo bits. On early demos for example you could hear the strings in the background very clearly, and they added a perfect dramatic effect to the song, but in the final mix they're buried. Also the demon vocals on "It was the wrong time" bits weren't necessary IMO.

Interesting in 2016?  Nope don't think I said that.  Such a big part of the album's legacy for me?  Nope didn't say that either.  Was simply responding to the topic about Chinese Democracy's legacy.  Don't know how we can't talk about past events when discussing the legacy of an album that was released in 2008. 

Honestly, why don't we just move all CD album & era discussions to Dead Horse anyway?  We are debating the legacy of an album from 2008 with members who are not even a part of the band anymore. 

If members having left since it's recording is the criteria that disqualifies a record from discussion, we can't discuss anything GNR have ever released.

Ok, I'll try to explain better.

"What do you think of album X after all these years?"
"I like it, that song is nice, this song blah blah blah but the shows had the same setlist for a decade"

Obviously it seems like the setlist is somehow connected to the album for you.
Would the legacy be better if you just had stayed at home instead of seeing those songs live?  ???





/jarmo

I think both CD and Scraped intros are very Queen-ish. Just compare to One Vision and I Want It All.

huh, cd-intro is queenish? Is like techno/electronic in my view.

The concept is not that different from the One Vision intro:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cuXasbjhT8

omagad, ur right

  :hihi:

I had the same reaction

I'm not gonna go. Festivals is like, uhm... some kind of feelgood-consentrationcamps. Cheap danish beer and the works. Hell if I want to experience that again.

Will sit home and watch instead. Still trying to forget rio11. :(

:hihi:


I got Madagascar live. So No, the legacy is better with the live experience.

Hold on... these songs live have no bearing on the released album.

People don't go by a band's live performance of songs as their legacy. The album Chinese Democracy and it's legacy are directly tied to the actual album... ie  Compact Disc or Vinyl record.

Just because certain songs sound better live or whatever doesn't increase the album as a whole. I feel like this thread isn't what it should be. Yeah I think Madagascar is better live, but that doesn't influence my thinking on CD.

I think over time it will grow in this almost underground sort of way. Well if Gn'R do an actual reunion etc... the sales will pop for this album too.

I'm not wholly with you on that.  Some live performances are seen retrospectively as distilling the best (or, sometimes, worst) about an artist - either generally or at a certain point in their career.  Think of the Beatles' playing on Ed Sullivan or at Shea Stadium - both emblematic of them cracking America.  Or the Rooftop Concert, at the very end of their time together.  Elvis' 1968 Comeback Special, Bob Marley at the London Palladium... a lot of these gigs have become legendary performances that are just as important as records in the things that define a band's legacy - naturally they are more likely to have this status if they were recorded and are available as live albums or DVDs, or indeed as bootlegs.

I guess the question as it applies here is, does anything from the Chinese Democracy era have a similar function in the history of Guns N' Roses?  Maybe the Hammerstein gigs, or Rock in Rio III? 

You're reading into this too much I think.

Live recordings of shows aren't very accessible for alot of people sometimes. At the end of the day a band's albums on recorded physical or digital data will define them.

The CD of Chinese Democracy of Vinyl of it (however you listen) will define the legacy of the album.

No one is going to care about how the songs were performed live. They are pretty close to the same. Lets not kid ourselves here. Not like a version of Sorry is 5 times better live than the album version. Some songs might be a little better live, but that isn't going to change the way the album is percieved. The album stands on its own. That is what we are talking about.

I don't even know how Chinese Democracy in concert even gets involved with the Legacy.

Back on topic...

CD is an album I've not listened to in several weeks. Not because its good, but just because I'm more of an old Gn'R guy I think.

I still think it is AS GOOD as UYI stuff, and that isn't a bad thing.

I have never understood this argument.

If you didn't dig it, and many people didn't dig it, its because it didn't sound like Guns N' Roses to you.

Why will that change over time?

If 'It's So Easy' and 'Scraped' sounded like 2 different bands to you in 2008, why would it be any different in 2018?

Well it is pretty easy to understand if you think longer than 3 seconds dude.

Chinese Democracy came with  massive hype. Massive. I mean work on the album started in 1998 or 1999. It didn't come out until 9 or 10 years later. It got press for not being out.

That is called hype. Not to mention it was under the Guns N' Roses name. So when it hit stores it was criticized badly not for the music quality, but for the long term approach to it. It underwhelmed. It didn't even go #1 in the USA.

The sales of the record, and the singles charting was poor. So the taste it leaves in people's mouths is a good album that is overrated. (NON-Gn'R fans).

This album was not a good album to attract newer/younger fans. This album has definitely kinda been forgotten outside of the normal ring of Gn'R fans I think. Also I never stated I didn't like it. I like CD, it's good. Just not great as it was supposed to be.

SO like I said, in time... I think it will be looked back on in a better way, especially if this reunion goes well, and new fans see the classic lineup or something. Mostly if they put out a new album somehow. Then it would be the follow up to "Chinese Democracy" and guess what new fans are going to buy? The previous album.

The legacy of the album from a non fanboy perspective is that it is a "good"/"okay album that took way too long. I think the album will stand the test of time.

Agreed.

I just tend to roll my eyes at the talk that it was just too complex, a misunderstood masterpiece, or how it will appreciate over time.

Seems like wishful thinking to me.  And a coping mechanism to try and explain away why people didn't dig it.

People heard it and said "...nah, not for me".  It happens.

Didn't Axl say basically the same thing about the reaction he was expecting some people to have to the album?  I tried to find the quote but couldn't.

Yeah, it was something like that.  He did go into this with open eyes, really.

That quote?

Yes that's it.  Thank you.  :)

Pretty perfect summation, I think.

I do not think it sounds much like Guns N' Roses, for the most part.  But there are a few tunes on there I do truly love anyway.

well yeah, that song (or axl) didn't work very well on the album.


huh, if u drink water from a coca-cola bottle it is not good just because it doesn't taste cola?

I missed some of the punk voice-acrobatics, Vocaltracks were all polished and standard.

If you only like Cola and not water, than yes, it is not as good just because it isn't Cola.

This is the problem 'we' as fans have... you can't just accept that some people don't like something you like, or something isn't their style. I have friends who will really only listen to Country Music, but they tend to like bluesy/classic rock (like AFD)... they cringe when I have CD playing in the background at home or in the car when they are with me. It isn't their style... it isn't going to grow on them. Taste is subjective, they aren't wrong any more than you are for liking it. It means what it means to you... hold on to that, but don't let it bother you that it is never going to be universally recognized like Appetite.

＾if you give someone a glass of apple juice and accidentally tell them its milk, and they take a drink without looking at it, they are likely to spit it out thinking something is wrong with the milk. but then, after you tell them oh i meant apple juice, they will realize its perfectly good apple juice. presumptions and expectations can definitely affect an experience.

but yeah, i can see how cd just isnt for everyone. i have a friend that always tries to force hip hop on me. he used to not like it as well, but now he always tries to force me to pay attention to it when were together. not sure why he expects me to change. it actually makes me like hip hop even less.

i cant help it, i just feel stupid and awkward when i listen to it. its just not me.

I didn't like CD that much and most knew that gnr had changed line-up.

The CD era - well, it's provided a lot of live shows, so fans all over have got to see GN'R in action, which is great.  We've had a great album (in my opinion anyway), that I feel still holds up well today.  My only problem is that though, we've only had ONE album of new music.  To make this era even more of a legacy I think it needed more new music.  That's just my opinion and I'm sure many of you may disagree but I really feel that, say 15-16 years, with only one new record is maybe disappointing to some. 

However, with this mini-reunion happening, I'm hoping that a brand new era is going to bring us much more new music and a massive world tour.  Here's hoping anyway.

I think Axl pretty much nailed it for me.

it definitely is a complex album, and quite a modern one. too bad 1) it wasn't released in its original raw shape around 2000, 2) it was re-shaped and re-recorded so many times, that the original spirit is gone, replaced with quite a different sound in its final form, 3) many parts of it still sound like unfinished demos, 4) only this tiny piece of all recorded material got actually released.
wasted opportunities, talents, time and money - not that I mean it totally negative, I actually like most of the songs! just trying to find the realistic point of view :)

Has what has been established as what Coca-Cola is and tastes like already been around for 20 years?  Which people came to like and appreciate?

And then you changed the entire formula, but still stuck in a Coca-Cola bottle?  And then when people said they didn't like it, you asked them what their problem was because they had always been Coca-Cola fans, and still says Coca-Cola right on the bottle?

I believe this exact scenario played out, if memory serves.  It was called New Coke.  Didn't really land.

wrong logic. people now seem to be expecting 1989-1991 again. obviously not happening, because it was 25 years ago. GNR evolved, band members are not 25-30 years old anymore, but around 50. everything has changed. having some old chaps on the podium, pretending it's 1988 again, obviously can't work at all. the expectations seem a bit impossible, I think.

Bahaha, that reminds me of someone.
Well, at least it had Sugar !

Probably the understatement of the year :hihi:

 :-\


mhm

I might see this point if it was still the band that everyone knew and accepted as Guns N' Roses.

This, was not.  It was GNR in name only to most.  That's a tough sell.

What Axl attempted to do was basically unprecedented.  As he told Loder after the VMAs.  How do you rebuild something that was so huge back up from scratch with all new pieces?  Very, very hard.

Oddly, I think Axl was far more ready for the reaction than a lot of his fans were.  He seemed pretty open about how it was going to be different and some people weren't going to dig it.  He really never went down the road some here do about how its a straight line evolution and some fan you are, you motherfucker, you.  He never really did that.  I think he was far more realistic.

Yeah, Axl knew better about expectations. I still feel I get what he was trying to do in regards of the sound, but maybe he overlooked the style.

It does. But there is a lot surrounding the album besides the music itself. Prejudice is the biggest one - I know a lot of people who didn't like it before even hearing it. That's why I think it has a chance to grow over time. Not to be a huge hit, tho.

I think what will happen "over time" is that there will be a larger "re-evaluation" of Axl Rose, his career and his career choices- particularly if the regrouping is a success. In that context- I do think Chinese will get a second audience. Unfortunately, the kind of thing to trigger this sort of retrospective analysis IMHO will be something like Axl's passing (e.g. have spent a lot of time listening to Bowie's Berlin Trilogy albums last several days)- which is hopefully many, many moons from now obviously. In the meantime- as much as the "hype" and delays hurt Chinese- in a funny way- they kind of help prop it up now IMHO- as the "journey" to Chinese Democracy has attained a sort of "reference point" status in rock music history in terms of long-developing albums (along-side Smile). Of all the many albums that under-perform commercially- Chinese will be one of the few that is still remembered/referenced IMHO- if not for reasons directly pertaining to the music.

All that said- full disclosure- Chinese Democracy is my favorite album- by any artist- but that is a separate discussion. 8)

No question about it. 

But what about this?  That prejudice is a real thing.  But with Slash and Duff back in the fold now, will Axl get more slack?

Here is what I mean.  Will people be slower to really rip his vocals?  Will people suddenly be more receptive to CD songs if those guys are the ones playing them?

I don't think you can rule that out.

And? It be a greater popband yeah, but what about the music?

Actually I don't think so. If anything, people will get more curious about it.

Not ruling it out, I do think the prejudice may get even stronger. But maybe in its 10th anniversary it can be revisited? I dunno.


BTW I don't see any problem with his vocals on CD and didn't see much complain about it.

Oh no, not on the album.  I meant his live vocals from 2011-2014.

If he comes back with the same caliber of vocals, will people to slower to call him out on it, due to the appearance of Slash and Duff?  Are the same spotty vocals while standing next to DJ Ashba viewed the same way as when he's standing next to Slash?

This is something I fear.

I think a lot of people haven't really checked out GNR in the past 20 years , you know the kind, the kind that saw SLASH wasn't there, and upon 5 seconds of listening, dismissed NUGNR.
Those people will check them out now just  because of Slash is back. I fear with their negative opinion, they will look to slaughter GNR and especially Axl if he underperforms.

It's a 100% legitimate concern.

We're not supposed to say it out loud around here, I realize.  But no one is saying it to be a dick.  We all want this to be wildly successful. 

But you can't be blind to reality.  Axl must deliver because, yes, there are going to be a shitload of people seeing him for the first time in some time.

Footage from Coachella will be out there, and it will be good sound.  There will be no secrets on this thing, almost immediately.

I happen to think he will be ready to roll.  But am I worried?  Yeah, I'm worried.  I'm not going to sit here and bullshit.

wasnt there an axl quote where he mentioned something about the arrangement from TIL and said something about either how it will take people time to appreciate cd or take time for people to realize what he did? something along those lines?

I agree with this completely DX. I mean seeing them live would be just incredible. Axl's vocals have taken a dip for sure, but it is a lot harder to sing like him than play a instrument at his age.

It isn't his fault. He's just getting old. What I would like more than anything is for them to pop some albums out. I think in the studio Axl would be able to give his very best vocals where live he might struggle with certain rocker songs.

He vocals on "Nightrain" for example just aren't as good from 2011-14 as they have been. He's just getting older. It happens. In the studio he's have more area to perfect each song the way he wants it. I would rather have like 20 shows a year, and a new album ever 2 years than boat loads of shows and no new album ever.

I'm really really hoping to get some new stuff from the guys... and a box set of older stuff that has been tucked away sitting around.

I attended numerous shows in 2014 and he sounded great.

54 isn't ancient or geriatric and only looks "old' to the prepubescent crowd, age is relative from where you're looking.

So long as Axl does some decent prep work, I think he'll be fine.

We heard he wasn't at the first batch of rehearsals, which was discouraging.  Still time though.  And I still think he knows he has to be ready.

Yeah I mean he sounds good still, just not great.

There's a clear drop in his vocal range and quality though since 2006ish or just after. It's not a huge drop and he's still great live for sure. The older he gets the less likely his vocals might stay great.

Axl is one of the greatest vocalists ever. So his vocals "dropping" is really a small thing.

Also has one very difficult vocal style.

Axl is my favorite frontman ever, but my second is Eddie Vedder.  Eddie's vocal style, he can still easily do that shit when he's 70.

Axl's requires a lot more effort.

Was there ever a credible source to that claim?

I remember reading something about that on some forum, coming from Steven Tyler, but no source was presented. Makes me think it was made up.

However, it wouldn't be unusual for Axl to skip rehearsals. But, it's maybe not even any point in him being there at the beginning while the band figures out the music together anyways. Him singing for a full three months ahead might also present a risk of wear on the voice even before the tour starts. Better for the singer to join in the last weeks when the music starts to sound tight.

IMO the "drop" was clearly in 2011. Hell, in 2010 he sounded even better than 2006, at least to me.

I agree all the way. The Jungle/Nightrain any screetch songs are just going to get harder.

Eddie and someone like Myles Kennedy can probably sing that way forever.

Agree with all of that.

However, I think it would be better from a camaraderie standpoint if he at least stuck his head in.  Even if he's not singing.

Agreed.  That's where I see a change.

Although, oddly, I think he sounded a little weaker in 2011...then downright horrendous in 2012...but then kickass again by 2014.

Very strange.

Yeah in 2006 he sounded as good as he ever has. Awesome.

I saw him late 2011 and he sounded fantastic. It just wasn't as good as the old days or 2006ish. he was still very very good.

2014 was a rough year for him I think vocally.

You always bring this up... And I totally agree, but with a caveat. What you hear in person and what people hear on recordings/broadcasts are two totally different things.
I know being in Boston in 2002 at the Fleet Center and hearing the soundboard are almost like two different shows I though Axl and Robin sounded better live than when I listened back on CD and DVD. Same with the Hammerstein shows, I thought he sounded amazing like and I though it sounded weak on DVD (granted this is a less clear audience recording than the Boston Soundboard). I'm sure the people who were in the crowd in London and Las Vegas for the live broadcasted shows think they sound better than I do. Part of it is the acoustics of the venue and part of it is the adrenaline of the live experience.

What they could have to worry about is You Tube after the first 5 shows effecting the casual fan dropping money on the rumored Stadium tour if it 'sounds' like Axl is being blown off the stage by Slash... because I can tell you, like his material or not, he has been spot on flawless in his last few DVD releases.

I think it will be fine, but that is the risk...

I have not seen a credible source for that claim at all.

Terrible in South America, but solid by Vegas.

If you call up the clips from March down there, and then June up here...huge difference.

No-  he was more consistent in 2014 than in 1991.

I was relating my experience, and he sounded great to me- if I'm not mistaken Duff mentioned how good he sounded too.

I don't dwell on If's- waste of time.

If anything those are the songs he sounded the best on live even during his 'weak' period from 2011 to 2013 that people are mentioning. It's the songs where he was trying to sing more than scream to me that highlighted his weakness.

Could not agree more.

I know discrediting Youtube (when its convenient...certainly never seen it questioned when he sounds good) is a rich pastime around here, but the rest of the world is not similarly motivated.

If the first clips have him sounding like Vegas 2014, good.  If its sounds like Vegas 2012, not so good.

To fill stadiums, you need a lot of folks.  The less reason you can give them to doubt, the better.

I'm glad that's your opinion and not fact.

I find 'You Could Be Mine' to be a good measuring stick.

That is my opinion of course, I wasn't stating it or trying to pass it off as fact. I attended shows both years.

I agree with Emily, to a point.  Because she's so nice to me.

But seriously, if you call up those bootlegs from the summer of 1991, he sounds a little rough.  Certainly by the end of the US leg.

However, even at his worst in 1991 (whenever you deem that be) its nothing like early 2014.  

But right now we don't know if he's been at rehearsals, right? Maybe he is.

I understand your experience, but that is sort of uncommon... there are a small number of people who have attended as many shows as you, so those others do rely on places like youtube, and I don't think the experience translates to video as well.

You can't say his vocals in 1991 were not better than his vocals in 2014.

That's just fucking nuts.

He sounded better in 1991 than 2014.

No way in hell that is even a debate.

Fucking turncoat... :hihi:

All I know is the last time we heard Axl sing, he sounded good.  Really good.  I was getting people at work excited for the Vegas shows (ok I was bragging to my co-workers that I'm going to both shows) and they were questioning whether Axl's still got it.  I immediately sent around the 6/6/14 Jungle performance.  Needless to say, all were impressed that he's still got it.

I agree with your point, overall.  Other than 2006, I don't think any time in the relaunch he has sounded as good as he did back in the day.

But, the memory cheats.  If you compare the summer of 1991 with even the summer of 1992, world of difference there.  Sounds much better in 1992.

Yeah 92 was a little better

I'm just in shock that ANYONE... (it is Emily though) thinks that he sounded better in 2014 than in 1991

no fucking way

2006 was like one of the best though man. Wish I had seen him then.

wait

I had tickets to a show but it was postponed... then cancelled...

lol

Hahahaha.  Did the EXACT same thing with the EXACT same clip.

One of my brother's buddies posted some big long thing about tickets being $2,500 and then posting the Bridge School clip.  Which, let's be honest, is terrible.

So I swooped in to point out that was a one off benefit show where he was under the weather.  I did concede that he sounded like shit, but stressed that was not how he sounded every night.

And then I posted a clip of WTTJ from 6/6/14 to prove my point.  Again, conceding it's not exactly 1992 Axl, but still pretty damn good.

That's the weirdest thing about this place.  Here, I'm an enemy of the fucking state.  ANYWHERE ELSE...I'm considered and Axl fanboy/apologist.  A total mark.

Can you read?

I said more consistent in 2014 than in 1991.

How many shows did you attend in 91-92?

His 'rasp' in 91-93 is better than any point since... but his rasp lead to less technical proficiency. I think the story around Sebastian getting him in touch with his 'voice guy' after Axl blew out his voice in the first 2006 show has lead to what people view as weaker vocals, because when he feels his throat giving out, he begins singing more from his diaphragm... shows were constantly effected by his throat in the 90's (postponement etc...) that hasn't happened much since 2006.

Also to DX's point if you are not in tip top shape and you rely on a more technical style of singing than he employed live in the 90's you are going to sound weak as you lose a little air and endurance.

That's the cross we bear...

Maybe because here 99.995% of the time you're negative and criticizing everything Axl/NuGNR/TB/Jarmo does.  Whereas on those other sites 95% of your posts are pro-Axl/NuGNR/TB/Jarmo.

It's not weird.  Maybe you are subconsciously an attention whore that needs to post the opposite of the main direction of the thinking/focus on whichever site you happen to be on.  Maybe in your subconscious you think saying the opposite will make your posts stand out over everyone else's.

Least I hope it's subconscious.  :hihi:

Oh, I don't mean other sites.  I mean in life.

This has been the only GNR board I've posted at for a few years now.

But its an interesting juxtaposition.  If my brother, any of my friends, any of my peeps on Facebook...if I told them some of the charges I get leveled at me around here about both this band and Axl himself, they would laugh hysterically.

Doesn't matter if it's another site or "in life" as you say.  You're doing the same thing.  If someone says blue, (a good portion of the time) you're going to say green thinking your response will get more reaction because it's different from theirs. 

If someone in your real-life acquaintances says something negative about Axl/NuGNR/TB/etc., you're going to defend against the negativity because you're a fan.

You have to admit that the majority of your posts on HTGTH are negative against Axl/NuGNR/TB/Jarmo/etc.

Maybe you should let your real-life acquaintances read for themselves the things you post here and let them judge the level of the charges against you about both this band and Axl.

I've told those very people about this board.  They are like, 97% sure that I'm making a lot of you up.

After reading some of the things people post here, I question our existence too.  :hihi:

Just to be clear, I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't have an opposing view on things.


Also, I don't know what juxtaposition means.

I dont see it this way with DX at all. He is entitled to an opinion as much as anyone on this site or any other. I dont think he goes out of his way to garner more attention, i simply think that this sites owner has a every rose coloured outlook on GNR... and thats fine too.. but if you want interesting conversation, or even lets dare say debate, then DX tends to look like the bad guy in many peoples eyes because hes questioning things and legitimately so IMO.

I dont know the guy from a bar of soap, yet i dont see him being rude to the band, or Axl, it just grates people on here that he questions things and calls it as he sees it.. hes definitely not a hater of anything.

His negative comments will get 100 replies and an outcry...yet he makes many positives posts and they don't get any attention. You cant have it both ways.

That's the only bit that's frustrating. 

Look, I'm not an idiot.  I know some of my opinions are going to rub people the wrong way sometimes.  And the smartass thing falls flat with some.  That's life.

All I try and do is not get personal, not get juvenile, and walk after the conversation starts getting circular.

People here that fight with me tend to want to fight with me.  Call it our dynamic.  I don't take it personal. 

^^^ See thats the thing.... i see a thread like this asking for opinions on the legacy of CD.

I think... gee, id like to put my opinion in this thread but i know damn well ill just be called a hater of the band, and unsupportive, so generally i avoid threads like this and i just read them.

The only reason i even commented was because the charges being leveled at you above are the same charges i face on here generally. I think this place has very limited middle ground which is actually where i see myself.. yet im tarnished with the "you're a negative hater" brush. Couldn't be further from the truth in real life or on here.. but i guess perceptions are just that... doesn't make them real. And that may go both ways.... either way... i have a damn lot of positive things to say about this band in real life and on here, yet the only stuff that ever warrants a reply is when i offend someone with something they dont like.

Such is life i suppose.  ;)

cds legacy... if cd 2 really is on the way, the outcome could still be pretty up in the air with it being the 2nd half of it and all. i know people like to bust balls if one refers to the vault, but even beltrami said the best song he worked on was 7, and we still havent heard that one. maybe they werent just making it up when they said they were holding out on a lot of their big guns.

Suppose they get Slash and Duff on there.

How much would that change the song's sound overall, do you think?

massively. Slash's sound especially is very easy to distinguish.

In saying that.... thats only 50% of the problem....  the other 50% is definietely on Axl to deliver a song that is a bit more stripped back (just my opinion) and really give it a guns feel.

Just my 2 cents for what its worth.

I agree.

I think it changes the sound.  Frankly, probably more to something I'd rather hear.

But to a lot of folks, they want to see what that line-up did.  They want them as untouched as possible.

hard to say! if i had to guess, i would say not too radically. my reasoning would be because the songs were supposedly already done. to radically rework them could likely not be done fast enough to take advantage of the reunion hype. plus, i think axl is only willing to compromise the stuff he came up with so much, because it means a lot to him and hes worked very hard on it.

I'd say thats definitely true for the majority of people on this site... not so much in the rest of the world from my personal dealings with people. They couldnt even tell you who was in the band other then Axl since 1996.

Thats just the way it is... regardless of whether people on here want to admit that.

My interest level in anything to do with CD2 would spike massively if Slash and Duff are on it. No Doubt about it at all. But if they arent... then ill only be vaguely interested and that is on an account of Axl and Axl only.

fair point.... it would come down to how much time Axl and the other guys would be prepared to spend on this as to how different it could sound. Which just blurs the lines on this record even further. Everything surrounding this record is a major cluster fuck at the moment and its one reason why i don't think it will see the light of day.

That is crap. CD is stand alone.

Even if a CD II comes out it would be 8 years and counting roughly. That wouldn't tie into the legacy. You don't release a 2nd part to an album 8 years later and have that affect the previous album or tie into it.

Chinese Democracy's legacy is set for right now. THe only thing that can make it better is if the reunion produces new music and the songs from that album are heard by different people and it puffs that albums popularity/awareness of it.

If CD II is done... then why isn't it out? I don't get it.

I don't want Duff and Slash reworking that stuff. I would love to hear it but that would mess with the components of the band. Put it out as a double album maybe? That might confuse the fuck out of people though.

Just release the damn album man. What is the big deal? I hate it so much.

After that album is out let the guys tour behind it for a bit, then record something new. If this reunion this is "for real" and not just a big ass tour... I want CD II and NEW MUSIC/Box set unreleased stuff from Gn'R in the next 2-3 years.

Axl owns the name...

and we all know how and why... so its up to him right? ::)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKsJ75dQiJ4

Firstly.... if the record is finished, and axl does release it... whos going to tour behind it? Surely not Duff and Slash (unless it is reworked and they are on it) so i dont see it being released and toured. Because the other guys on it are long gone anyway.. so only 1 of 2 things can happen if he releases it... Axl releases it as it was... and theres no touring of it. Its just released... or Slash and duff end up on it.. they release it and a few songs off it creep into the set-list of the current tour... which i dont think will happen either.

What is more likely to happen is it sits in the vault and thats where it stays.. consigned to history as if it never happened, we get this tour... and maybe a few NEW songs from scratch.. if we get anything at all.

Yeah. Based off of Gn'R's history of disappointment in the last few years... we'll probably get a world tour, and maybe 1-2 new songs or something to test the market.

Even if the songs do well we probably won't get anything else. Maybe a best of down the road?

New music? As much as I hope and as much as I'd buy it up so fast... I just think that is wishful thinking. I hope I'm wrong so badly.

Just basing the whole 1 album in 15+ years.

I dont see the attraction of CD 2 personally.

I didnt like CD at all.. and if CD2 is more of the same i couldnt  care less for it. As for a remix album... i have even less interest in that if thats even possible.

I would just prefer to see the current line up (whatever that is might i ad) do something new if they have it in them. Failing that, if we dont get new music i can live with it, getting slash and Axl on stage again was a minor miracle anyway so im happy to watch this tour unfold. I am not as desperate for new music as i was once was... but if these guys can churn out one last album with some of Izzy's help, i think they may just have one last decent album in them.  ;)

i doubt the guys gonna altogether scrap music he spent so long and so much effort working on. i think it means a lot to him.

And thats a popular line of thought.

But the facts on where this album is at are non-existant. Yes Axl said that it was done... well where is it? And unless hes hellbent on releasing it.. (and there is no evidence to suggest he is) then it makes zero sense to release it with a tonne of mish-mashed players who are long gone. And it also makes no sense to release it now that the reunion is on and everyones focus is on that.. .UNLESS of course Duff and Slash are on it. Which there is no evidence to suggest either. Slash just finished his own world tour, when would he have had time to re-record his parts? By and large the rumours are they are rehearsing for this tour now and theyll be on the road in 8 weeks... i wouldnt hold your breath for CD2 anytime soon mate.

I'm sorry. This performance of Jungle is good, not great. I mean its not bad at all. It is the norm I guess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLEHLoc-G_M

this is what I want. This is as good as anything he's ever done vocally. It's fucking awesome.

This is like almost 10 years ago... so I doubt we can revisist this right? Who knows.

Im so glad I went to see them in 2006.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vq5x4tnVN0g my favorite era :-[

The issue I have with that Era, is that Axl's voice was kind of odd and Fink was technically sloppy. Both Axl and Fink where much better in 2006, though no BH.

For the people that grew up with this incarnation of the band I get that you had such a short window with Bucket and Robin together and that is a special time... but for my money 2002 is probably next to 11-12 the worst touring period of the band. Portions of the band were very tight, but Axl sounded awful most shows and Robin was dreadful... sloppy and out of tune isn't a style. He was much much better in 2006 and 2007, those Euro shows and the US tour was tough for him. I won't even get into 'the look' because it isn't a popular talk track, but hopefully we never see the football jersey's and baggy running pants again...

Yeah Finck did look stupid for a lot of it.

Axl's voice was very much hit and miss too during times.

2006 really was the best year vocally I think. I will never forget watching the 2002 VMAs. And remember how overwhelmed and out of breathe he seemed.

oh im not holding my breath. wouldnt be fair to me or to axl to do that.

i think the scrapping cd2+releasing entirely new music scenario is more far fetched than eventually seeing some form or another of cd2. i think, admittedly nothing more than think, that there is something in this reunion for axl, and its not just cash/fan service. i think that "something" is related to cd2.

you could say it was this or nothing, but i see him as the type that wouldnt be forced. i see him choosing the nothing option instead. the reason he didn't, in my opinion, is because he got something he really wanted out of the deal.

hes already rich, will probably rake in royalties for years to come even if he quit now, so its likely not the money.

pleasing the fans? i dont think he lets our wishes dictate his actions. dont think he has much of a need to feel validated by the masses or the media.

just happy to play with his old buds again? maybe.


hell i dont know. as is always the case with gnr, never say never and only time will tell.


cd will never come out! ... cd comes out.

band will never reunite!... band reunites.

cd2 will never be released!... ?

imagine if buckethead was in at 2006, BBF was rly good but...can't beat that claustrophobic gig in 2010 at that club tho :hihi:

I actually think the low point of '91 was Indiana. He's ragged at that show, his voice is shot.

Well, I'd like Taylor Swift and her BFF Karlie Kloss to mud wrestle for the opportunity to fuck me. 

I mean...if we're just wishing for stuff.

The point of posting WTTJ from the 6/6/14 is not that it shows Axl at his absolute best.  But it shows him at his most recent, and not sounding all that bad.  Certainly not sounding anything like the Bridge School thing.  Or any number of 2012 concerts, where its just a horror show, vocally.

Its trying to convince people to buy a ticket to see him in 2016.

Do you have a copy of the marathon show from 8.3.91 in Inglewood?  THAT is a shot voice.

Oddly, by the time he's in Europe just 2 weeks later, he sounds better.

I don't know man.  I watched the 1991 show in Indiana the other day.....and he sounded so bad on multiple songs.

It's a bit scratchy during that summer U.S. leg.  No question.

Still some great shows in that leg though.

This will sound odd to many, but the fact he sounds rough sometimes really doesn't bother me, I've watched the Indianna show multiple times and yeah in spots it's off but it's never overly bothered me because guns were sloppy at times back then and that was just part of it for me. I still like all the old shows and to be honest I'm not that not picky

That's just me though

Listen to Jungle at Indiana. His voice goes out and sounds like it might be his last concert.
His voice changed so much between 1992 and 1993. There were always rumors of his having vocal surgery in this time. If you listen to say, WTTJ back to back at Paris 1992, and Argentina 1993, it's believable. Or YCBM.

wow, he sounds crazy there. unbelievable voice. even though compared to his better performances its not as good, he still sounds awesome.

i wouldnt doubt hes had to have surgery. even rod stuart had to have surgery, maybe even more than once, and his voice doesnt seem nearly as harsh on the chords.

I liked CD a lot and still listen to it frequently. Some of the songs are right up there with the best written under the GNR label (TWAT, Street of Dreams, Sorry, Better, Maddy are classics). Other songs on the album are very good and listenable over and over (IRS, Shacklers, Catcher, maybe This I love). And some are not so good. Everyone has his/her own opinion so I won't list them. But the point is that the album was very solid and did not disrespect the GNR brand. Although I have been a GNR fan since the 1980s, I was able to see them only in the "new GNR" version so I was able to acquaint myself with some musicians I did not know previously. Will I follow their solo careers as I did Slash and Izzy? No, but that does not take away from the fact they were very good in GNR, and I appreciate all their efforts to live up to the GNR mystique that they inherited. So we'll see if the new/old GNR brings something new to the table and continues to grow or turns into a greatest hits band that plays only to make money. Time will tell.

best lald-screams was 02, some good ones 09+ aswell

Yeaaahhh,, ALBANY 2002

 :love: