Here Today... Gone To Hell!

... that followed him (and all the members post UYI era), supported him with Chinese Democracy for the past 20 years?? A lot of fans were born at that time and only came to see this GNR incarnation with Tommy, Finck, Fortus, Buckethead, Ron, DJ Ashba beeing in the band more than the "originals" ?

 ???

Like what?



/jarmo

Say what?  We already know that Bucket, Robin, Bumble, Dj and possibly Tommy, aren't in the band anymore by their own choice.

I dont think Axl fired anyone...they maybe gor sick of all the pressure and push backs for filling someone else's shoes...and since Duff was closer to Axl these past years, it was natural that Axl and Slash would at least have some conversations to dispel any remaining negativity. It was something natural I think...

well we dont even really know whats going on yet. he hasnt really definitively ditched the cd fans or anything, who knows what he has up his sleeve.

I don?t think that was "natural" at all. Axl called Slash a cancer and wished he had never had him on the band (he was angry? maybe). But what I?m saying is: maybe there?s a lot of fans that prefer the CD era than the old line ups? Axl with the old guys spent 10 years together, with the "nugnr" line ups, 20 years.

Five of the CD Era gunners aren't in the band anymore!!!  There's nothing more to say about it unless he's going to address the material they worked on that didn't get onto CD.  And we all know he's not going to address that so, again, there's nothing for him to say!!!

I've been a fan of Guns n' Roses ("olde" & "nu") since 1987. As an "old" GnR fan from way back (& I wasn't like 5 in '87, I was 20, so I was rockin' out to AFD while chugging Mad Dog and doing lines), I didn't feel like Axl should have to say anything to fans like me when he returned with a new lineup, and then another lineup... I was just excited for any GnFnR Axl was serving up, and if some new music came with it, all the better. So for the "NU" fans who are disappointed... The Nu GNR was your original lineup, and now the lineup has changed once again... Going backwards in time now. While still moving forward. It's like a season of "Lost". I recommend strapping yourself in and enjoy whatever the future brings. Welcome to Axlworld.

There is only GunsnRoses.  NuGNR was a somewhat derogatory term created by disgruntled fans who wanted Slash back.  Slash is back so let that term go. Axl himself said he was appreciative to all the line ups when he accepted his lifetime achievement award at the Golden Gods. He does not  need to say anything else.

Me and Axl use the term NuGNR all the time and we're both fans of all the line-ups.  ::)

I get why you're asking - but it ain't happening

He owns a product and welcomes all who want to come along for the ride. Like it or not, the "era" of the NuGnr as it's referred to, produced one whole album in all of that time and a lot of the ideas for it were born well before the latest version of the Gn'r lineup was even formed.

+1

I think it's perfectly logical


Not too bash one line up over another but I think we need to stop quoting time frames, what does that have to do with anything? 1985-1993 yielded much more music. Starting in 1985 you got (in order) Live Like a Suicide, Appetite, Lies, Use Your Illusion 1 and 2, The Spaghetti Incident. They were winning major industry awards, releasing singles (I'll leave out videos, but new acts do release videos and see significant play on things like Vevo). Since then, even if you remove 1994-1997, we are looking at 17 years with one album and a single for a movie (OMG)... I won't count the Live Album and Greatest Hits covering the 85-93 period... The impact of the 2 people that came back is far greater than the 7 that have left from the CD Era.

What I won't do is question your opinion, or your feeling for members. That means to you what it means to you and no there is no reason to argue it with you, if you think Tommy is better than Duff or Robin is better than Slash all the power to you. With that said I love the people who want to tell Axl how he should feel about Slash,... That is up to him, he can forgive or hate anyone for what ever reason, and as quickly forgive... My quote above is just my guess of how things could have been smoothed out, but I don't know and neither do you, so how can how judge him negatively for it.

For the last 15 years all I heard from 'Axl fans' was that it's his band and he doesn't owe you (me) anything... not a show, song, album, setlist, or an explanation... well the same goes now, he doesn't owe CD Era (NuGNR) fans an explanation... 'it is what it is'

Great post.

I was born in 1995 and i discovered GNR when i was probably five. So yes i grew up with 2000-15 era GNR.

I sure hope that like you said we will get a new season of Lost, instead of re-runs of Seasons 1 and 2. (great show by the way)

There are (supposedly) going to be more NuGunners (3) than OldGunners (2) onstage at Coachella with Axl and Dizzy.

oh come on Jarmo.

I know you'll wield the ''he doesn't owe you anything, he doesn't have to explain anything'' but I also know that you would like to know (if you already know it, i'm pretty sure you were feeling like me and lots of others before knowing it) how can a person go from ''There's zero possibility of me having anything to do with Slash other than by ambush, and that wouldn't be pretty" / ''not in this lifetime'' / ''Slash either should not have been in Guns to begin with or should have left after Lies. In a nutshell, personally I consider him a cancer and better removed, avoided" to announcing 2 dates in a collosal rock festival including that ''cancer'' dude without any fucking scales.

I can understand 99.9% of the fans in the world, maybe 99.9% of the people who bought tickets to Coachella to see they reunited may not need any explanation. But as for me, and many other fans (0,1% is still a pretty good ammount of people in such a gigantic fanbase), it's very difficult to understand and diggest. Musically-wise it's just impossible to understand IMO: going from Brain/Bucket/Finck to Slash and who knows what other rhythm guitarist and drummer is a massive downgrade to my eyes. And probably a death sentence to the chances of seeing the unreleased stuff from ChiDem era to see the light of the day some day. It's absolutely sad.

I dont think I can be qualified as a hater: i've traveled to seven different countries to see this band 16 times in 4 years, and because i've spent 12 fucking years defending the new incarnation of the band against all odds and the majority of the members of this message board who are now merciless bashing the past and celebrating the ''reunion''. Geez, some people here think ChiDem should be now ERASED from GNR's history!

In response to RnT, I think YES: Axl should say something.

Axl will say something to the NUGNR fans.  When he does the band introductions, he's going to say:  "on keys: Chris MotherGoose Pitman; on drums: Frank Thunderchucker Ferrer; and on guitar:  Mr. Richard Fortus!!!

^ good point! i think their presences are a good sign for cd era fans. i dont think all the cd2 material will be ditched completely.

What Im seeing is that the NUfans are just as intolerant as the Oldfans  :hihi:

So, like, are you going to be the resident Debbie Downer who shits on everything from here on out...because you're pissed Bumblefoot isn't around anymore?  I don't know what sort of "explanation" you're looking for from Axl.  Frankly, you sound high.

You're not a Nuhater, you're an Oldhater.

Saying Stuff like Going from Bucket to Slash is a downgrade, kind of does make you a hater of the current lineup.

What you need to do is do what some of us did when Axl came with a bunch of different dudes: Accept it or say goodbye !

LOL-  Been a fan since the late 80's, it has ALL been GNR- no NU, no "hired hands", or any of the rest of that terminology.

When I want to refer to a particular lineup, I simply refer to the year- such as GNR 01' or GNR 91.

It isn't rocket medicine  ::)

Soooo Excited to be attending Coachella!

I think we are living in more tolerant times.

Pitman, Fortus, and Frank are apparently on board still.

and Hooray for that!

it does make more sense and that's the way I see it too,  however you do piss on Ashba just like Esteban is pissing on Slash.  So you fall in the hater category just as well.

It's rocket science or brain surgery or NuGNR.
Even Axl never called it rocket medicine.  :hihi:

I know my options, thank you. And I also know my choice: accepting it like a grown up and a racional being. Im not going to invent a derogatory term to call this band like a fucking 4 years old whiny kid, Im not going to deny the band's identity as ''Guns N' Roses'', and I will be attending the shows and buying whatever they put in the market as I always did. As long as Axl is there, you can count me in.

Duh! It's a joke phrase- I'm well aware of the original phrasing  :-* It has ALL been GNR to me- no other terms needed.

Can't wait until April! This is going to be great! So glad I was able to get tickets and attend!

I prefer 'Classic Era' and 'CD Era', but I haven't thought of what to call this.


What I don't get is the people who are drawing the line at Bucket or Robin vs. Slash... Axl didn't make that decision... they left on there own and Bucket was over a decade ago. He hasn't stepped foot on a GnR stage since 2002, and really wasn't around much after that in any capacity. Axl didn't choose to take a step back... Bucket, Robin, and Brain all left, and as long as we are sharing opinions, the better drummer stayed in Frank. Brain was borderline terrible on songs like You Could Be Mine... I am not a CD Era purist but Frank could be the best drummer the band has ever had.

Edit: Woody I was quoting your response, but more responding to who you were responding too.

Now we can call this 'Hybrid Era'  ;D

I agree about Frank, first time I heard the band play with Frank I felt he made a definite impact. The overall sound of the band improved.
At least live, he might be the best.

That definitely rolls off the tongue better than '3rd Times a Charm Era'

Frank is a great Drummer, I dropped by his Mule Kick going away party  : ok:

Didn't '3rd Times a Charm Era' start when BH left?  I think we're up to at least 'Come on 7!!! Era'

I was looking at it as the period that they toured on CD...which BTW have we spoken to the Guinness people to see if 2002-2014 is a record for touring on 1 album?

But I think the craps reference should have covered the Vegas Residency... This Era naming thing is hard.

That's a matter of tastes, and you should have noticed that the 2001-2006 lineup had three guys who were definitely not trying to ''imitate'' anyone but to translate their own styles to the songs. Check Robin playing the SCOM solo (you cant find 2 similar solos in 5 years), giving the impression he was just doing what his heart was dictating at that moment. Or the middle NR solo, criticized a lot at the moment by the ''purists'', or Buckethead doing his own thing on Nightrain, well, the same was for Brain. Do you REALLY think BRAIN (who is simply one of the most skilled drummers of our times, with an immense technique in many very complexes genres), cant ''copy bit-a-bit'' YCBM's intro? The intro for YCBM is one thing you learn to do in your third drum class... and this is exactly why I think DJ's addition to the band was the first step to make the band more ''old style'' maybe to sell more tickets... basically because he just copied everything (except for the TIL solo)

Jarmo will send me to the Dead Horse in a matter of seconds, I know... just cant believe how some fans underestimate the skills of musicians of the size of Bucket/Brain/Robin...

Slash & Duff are back and still some people are not satisfied..... Welcome to GnR land.

That's why I refer by years- it's not foolproof but it's fairly specific enough to designate which lineup I'm discussing.

There have always been too many AFD songs played on all the tours for any one GNR album to get that record.  But I'm sure every Era loves to drink Guinness!!!


By-the-By:  I consider myself more of a NuGNR Era fan.  And I'm obviously fine with that term.
I am also fine with most of the NuGNR members who are no longer in the band being gone.
I hope Tommy makes a few appearances in the Hybrid Era.

Funny thing, I own 21 GNR T-shirts, collected over the years- not a single one of them says NU-GNR- they ALL say Guns N' Roses! :D

It is absolutely a matter of tastes. I understand the love for Bucket because he is one of the most technically proficient guitar players out there, I don't 'dig' his style' but he is amazing. What I do not in anyway understand is the thought that not only is Robin in the same ballpark as Slash, but that people believe he is better (see what I did there)... Guitar God vs. guy that is a touring guitarist with a few writing credits on one major album and some other stuff that like 45 people have heard (and only because they visit these boards). I know I'm not going to change your mind because it is super subjective, I am onboard with you liking Robin more, but I don't see how anyone can say Robin is a better guitar player than Slash.

As far as Brain goes, he is great, I gave one example... and overall I think Frank is better for this band and it's material, Brain though did bring a lot to the engineering side when recording CD. With my YCBM example, it wasn't a beat for beat issue, it was that he 'pussyfooted' though that song... there was never any balls to it.

OK, I totally don't have time for this non-sense but I've seen it on Facebook and now here too. What is this thing about AXL having to say anything about the new members? Why on earth would he have to explain anything to anyone? Or the other thing I "like" is the thread someone started about being extremely sad because of Tommy is not in the band anymore??? Or another one from FB, one of DJ Ashba's female fans who is saying, quote [So my thoughts on this GNR ?reunion??
I never wanted one. I don?t like Slash.] end of the quote. Really, you don't like Slash, rather prefer another guitar player filling in while we could have the original member? And no disrespect, I actually like DJ Ashba, I think he does a good job with SIXX AM. Or comments from all over the internet like "Oh...if IZZY and Adler is not there than is not a reunion just a cash grab"!!

WTF people? Please don't get suicidal because of a band lineup changes!!! It's just fuckin' rock n roll!! Lineups change!! And there is no band in history that split and people didn't want it to be reunited and see the members who composed those songs play together again! That is normal, the only abnormal thing is that didn't happened fucking sooner!! And every new GNR member should have known that there is a possibility for reunion when they started to play in this band!

And this whole cash grab thing? Would seriously anyone think that any musician should get up there on stage and play for fucking free? So it won't be a cash grab? No one does that, except for starting bands!

And did anyone really think that maybe, just maybe IZZY is not down for a full touring gig? Or that maybe Stevie just can't keep it together for a full tour, no matter how much he wants it? But these details haven't even been announced yet...so who knows, might be guest appearances!


Ok, I could go on and on, but really I need to get back to work, because I don't work for free, I'm a successful business professional who works for money...which probably makes me just a cash grab...because I accept only consulting gigs that meet my hourly fee.

Let's not be drama rocket queens shall we?? Just sit back and enjoy that some of the guys that are responsible for composing the most recognizable anthems in rock history will play together again!

21?  Wow, then I guess you win. Congrats.

Some are tattered, some are in frames- some are replacements for the ones I lost or got stolen-  I lost 3 one time when the airline lost my suitcase.

Looking forward to increasing my collection this year  :peace:

It's not a concert shirt, but I had the old GNRONLINE.COM shirt walk off after a party one night at my apartment. That was a cool niche little piece of GnR history from the very dark late 90's.

I love all lineups of GNR, and grew quite fond of the last incarnation due to their live shows..Out of selfish reasons, I.e. Expected high demand for tickets, O was/am not 100% thrilled with a reunion...Am I excited? Yes, Am I planning on attending as many area shows? Yes! Would I have continued to support the CD lineup? Ab-so-f'ng-lutley!!

I stopped letting people borrow my concert Ts- It's so aggravating when they don't return them.  :rant:

Get on board or fuck off! Move on. Get over the past. Nobody owes you not one goddamn thing.

You know....that whole song and dance.  :hihi:


Axl himself referred to them as that.  Fans got bitched at for saying it for years yet when Axl called them that he wasn't bitched at for some reason.

It was just a way to differentiate between the two eras in discussions. I've used the term many times on forums but never saw the reason to in real life. For example, someone asks what your favorite band is, certainly wouldn't say new Guns N Roses.



EXCELLENT point.  :hihi:


In all fairness I think its a play on David Lee Roth's "It aint rocket surgery.." line.

That's exactly it.  Afd gnr was the biggest band in the world.  CD gnr wasn't selling out clubs at the end.  So you may love the CD lineup but in reality you are one of the few.   I loved it too but it was a niche act.

He kinda already did - "nobody owes you, not one God damn thing..."

I don't understand the sense of entitlement. If you're unhappy with the direction a band is going, you have options - don't see their shows, don't buy their records and merchandise.

Whatever the reasons may be - financial, personal, Axl is entitled to form his band however he sees fit.

Aside from "thank you for supporting Guns N' Roses over the years," what do fans want? Some long, drawn out explanation of the who, what, where, when and how this all happened? Axl doesn't ow that, or anything to anyone.

It was, I couldn't remember who said it right offhand- but I intentionally botched the line and went off script.

Here's what Axl said in the 2008 chats about "NuGuns"-

Axl:In regard to nuGuns, I get that sometimes it helps to be able to clarify. Personally I call this Guns and the Illusions or previous lineups old Guns.

Doesn't matter what he should say... he shoudn't have to say anything.

Any NUGn'R fan more than likely was a OLD Gn'R fan at some point first. So it doesn't matter.

At the end of the day, Guns N' Roses will be 86-95. The 00-15 Gn'R was good, but it isn't what any of us really wanted.

You don't speak for everyone, I have enjoyed every lineup of GNR, and I will enjoy seeing the lineup that shows up at coachella- so you can't say "it's not what any of us wanted".

That's how it is. GNR always tried to be as big as possible, bringing Slash and Duff back is the smartest move done by Axl in two decades.

Yeah he will. Axl is gonna dedicate Double Talkin Jive to all the people who are crying and moaning about DJ Ashba, Robin, CDII etc 

Careful what you wish for, you may have it   :smoking:

Sounds like many of you followed Axl's vision and peerless integrity like I did and now this feels like selling out a bit. Perhaps you ask yourself why he would choose to prostitute himself to live with fortune and shame. ;)

In all honesty though, for whatever reason it wasn't working was it. We weren't getting albums, tours were growing stale and most crucially Axl Rose, one of the greatest performers of all time, was starting to look like he didn't care anymore.

If these are the people he needs around to be The Axl Rose at this point, I'm glad they're there. Active Axl versus no Axl is a no brainer.

Some clarification on what's happening to the existing unreleased material would be nice along with a 'thanks to the members and supporters of recent lineups' buy it's not going to make or break my day either way. It's certainly not like we were right on the cusp of getting CD2 and 3 and then Slash came along and ruined that. There was no sign of an album. Something was wrong.

I don't think Axl should say something "for the NUGNR fans", but if Eddie Trunk is to be believed, he - and the other members - will hold a press conference at some point. I also believe that the Kimmel interview would be the place to explain some stuff, and it may still happen sometime in the future.

So there you go.

Well, it would be nice to know are we ever gonna hear unreleased material from CD -era. Like what happened to the remix album? what happened to the so called part 2 of the Chinese Democracy? Lot of fans supported the "NU-GNR" and have been waiting the new material for ages.

I totally understand that fans like to know about the band that they LOVE, so why most of you are such of assholes for RnT asking nicely stuff like that.

How is that particularly aimed at these so called "NUGNR fans"?
I'm sure the average rock fan would also be interested in hearing how it all happened. Hell, maybe even Debbie Downer who says nobody cares that they will play together again!

My question stands. What exactly is he now supposed to say to those particular singled out fans?
Many of us are Guns N' Roses fans and we don't really divide ourselves into smaller categories all the time. "I'm a fan of this GN'R, that GN'R, but not that one". No, I'm a fan of GN'R, period.



/jarmo

The only real difference in the lineups is that Slash and Duff have more star power than some of the other talented musicians who were part of GNR over the years.  Things evolve and change.  Exciting times ahead for GNR fans.  No apologies or explanations needed.  8)

While I certainly don' t agree with Esteban or any of his views or which version is more talented... he like many of us sees the eras of GNR as drastically different versions... not just one overall entity.

I don't think having that viewpoint deserves a lecture... I never have.

These recent developments really is the best of both worlds... it puts GNR at the fore front again... it will bring so many eye balls to everything they do, and should make it easier for a new GNR release that should feature music that has contributions from all the players over the years that people are so fond of around here.

Plus they didn't swap the CD era players out for Slash and Duff... they quit... a long time ago...

and then their replacements quit!

So the CD era of the band was finished anyway....

Yup... and they have that star power because of the iconic songs they helped create as a part of GNR .. having them back in the fold makes GNR so much easier to sell to the masses going forward...which as a result...hopefully will mean new music in our possession.

Perfectly stated.

Wouldn't change a word.

Oh boy...

On the points made regarding whether Axl has sold out, ya know, the whole 'prostitute' thing, going back to prior quotes he made about Slash, don't you think he has a right to change his mind?  People fight and reconcile all the time.  Axl said some things that were out of line, Slash said things out of line, there was misunderstanding through involved 3rd parties and the media, and ultimately they have been able to get back together for the fans.  So perhaps, its not about living with 'fortune and shame', but something that Axl feels he can stand behind for the right reasons.  Axl has always made choices that he feels are in his and the bands best interest, so why believe otherwise now?  

Plus.. and this may sound harsh...

when Slash, Duff and Matt all left ... the world wanted to know why... they were the biggest band in the world... and fans wanted answers...from all parties...


Now that the first two are back.... the world doesn't give a shit what happened to Ron thal and friends...

Well said.

Some people said some things never change... but time does heal most wounds.

I can think of one million musicians who can play GNR music impeccably.  Who cares ?

The original guys WROTE the fucking stuff.

What significant piece of GNR music have those guys you mention ever written ?

This is what I don't understand about the CD Era Fans complaining. If you were supporting the band and the axl rose vision, that thing ended a long time ago?.We were just waiting to see whether the recordings of said era would see the light of day? But that's a bit like The Stones releasing Rarities or Unheard songs from a 1969 album or something...

And he wasn't exactly burning the midnight oil getting all this exciting new music out, was he?

7 years now since the last album.  And not a peep about the next one.

So its hard to really sell this as the rug being pulled from under anyone.

Oh absolutely. I don't disagree with any of that. Grown adults change their mind about such things all the time and Axl's as entitled to do so as anyone else. My quoting Prostitute wasn't an attempt to slap him in the face with 'well you said this so you should stick to it for life'. Just a way of pointing out what a change in attitude he must have had at some point to be willing to step on stage with Slash again. It's a huge about-turn. A 180. And for the fans who supported him through it all something they're naturally going to be very curious about. But certainly it was always his decision to make and if the old wounds have been healed that's a very heartening thing indeed and good for everyone involved.

I can't recall a time when I've agreed with estebanf (certainly not on lineup preferences), but anybody who's read my posts knows I am not a bandwagon rider and I will play Devil's Advocate when necessary.


Firstly, as JAEBALL pointed out, estebanf doesn't deserve these childish "Get on board or fuck off!" lectures from the rest of the board just because he has an opinion.  Personally, I find plenty of reason within estebanf's opinion on Axl speaking out on something.

I don't necessarily believe the stage is the time or the place to issue any sort of statement on what transpired between Axl and Slash.  However, given everything that estebanf pointed out, that in a few short years, Axl went from calling Slash a cancer, saying he shouldn't have been in the band, swearing there'd be no reunion, etc. to reuniting with Slash onstage is a definite curiosity to myself and many fans.  I'd like to hear Axl's thoughts at some point on how he put all of that aside.

Does Axl "owe" me that?

Well, no.  I'm not the entitled type.  Never have been.  Hell, I've chastised others around here for feeling entitled.  But after the staggeringly vitriolic comments from Axl towards Slash over the years, it shouldn't be considered an unforgivable sin to wonder how Axl managed to put all that aside, and want to hear his thoughts on the issue.  If I had the opportunity to ask Axl anything, this is exactly what I would ask him.

That's how see it.  And I don't take my cues from some people on this board who seem to think that browbeating others into accepting the majority's view ("It's a reunion!  Just shut up and don't question it!") -- somehow makes them bigger fans than I am.  Wondering how the hell this happened doesn't mean I appreciate it any less.

Honestly, I think this is really just a business deal.  Don't think there was any real "come to Jesus" type moment for Axl.

I have also thought for at least 3-4 years now that he lost his fire for the whole CD era stuff.  I can't think of a better reason that explains his complete lack of motivation to move forward.  Especially compared to how he was approaching that right at the turn of the century when he was writing and recording and actually doing stuff.  Past few years have been total going through the motions time.

So, when his most recent crop of replacements cashed out, I just don't think he had the desire to try and put another band aid on the situation and keep trying.

I also largely suspect this option has been on the table for some time, with Duff making the pitch having already made the pitch to Slash.  And he just told Axl to give him a ring if he felt like doing it.

He's also human.  After awhile, I don't care how tough your resolve is, its got to wear on you when so few people care what you are doing.  When in the past, you were on top of the world.  I can't believe part of this whole reunion is not about wanting to be appreciated and relevant again.

Don't believe in that. In fact, he talked about that very thing in the last interview he's done.

Is suspect your only evidence of your opinion being correct is the fact that the album wasn't released? In your mind, since it wasn't released it must mean he doesn't want to put it out and/or has "no fire". Which I don't believe.... I could tell you why I don't believe that to be the case, but it seems like you've made up your mind already...





/jarmo

I'm contrasting the 2 situations.

All last decade he wrote and recorded new songs.  He played new songs at the shows.  He released a new album.  There was a sense he was moving forward and excited about doing it.

Past few years?  Residencies in Las Vegas built around a 25 year old album.  No new songs of any kind, and setlists that were showcasing fewer and fewer CD songs.  Nowhere on a new album.

You can debate the reasons for such a stark difference, I suppose, but only a fool could look at both situations and say they were the same.

And as for that interview, it was great to read at the time.  But lack of any sort of follow through on any level just makes that a bunch of talk.

So, if I could come up with reasons why they might've chosen not to play unreleased songs in 2014, would that make any difference to your opinion?
The same applies to the fact that no album has been released.

Because I suspect it won't.  Your mind's been made up.




/jarmo

Whereas you are all about different points of view, I guess.  Get real.

What would that conversation really be other than you refusing to concede I might have a point on some level, any level?

Shit, EVERY conversation you and I have is pretty much that, no?

- I propose something
- You take great offense and get all hot and bothered
- Throw out a bunch of totally unverifiable alternate reasons that "prove" I'm totally offbase
- Call me a bunch of names

That's prrreeeeeetttttttttty much every conversation we ever have.

Why did you get upset when I asked you if there's any use of me listing things that won't make any sense to you?
I was just asking, trying to save us some time. In my past experiences trying to discuss anything with you, as soon as something is said, that does not compute, you try to deflect and move on to something else....




Once again, you think I'm bothered. Wrong.
You on the other hand admitted to getting all annoyed by AdZ the other day.....

Relax.



/jarmo

Sure, throw 'em out.  Just two guys talking.

All I've done is give you my theory.  Why would you not offer yours?  We're both guessing.

But, and here's the rub, you tend to insist these conversation end with "so now you see why you're wrong."

Not really. But it would be nice to see some evidence of you actually taking something in and not just dismissing it because it goes against what you already believe.
Which is why I asked in the first place.


So you think the fact that the album wasn't released yet means Axl has "lost the fire".
I disagree.

I have seen no evidence that just because it didn't come out yet, that he has no interest in putting it out when the time is right.
Also, we haven't heard a word from him on the subject. So I don't agree with the assumption that since it didn't come out, and since he didn't say what he's been up to, it must mean nothing has been done regarding new music. We all manage to do many things in our lives without sharing it with everybody. I had a coffee a few hours ago, didn't tell anybody, but I still drank it.

In short, I don't believe in the quiet on the front being confirmation or evidence of a lack of interest in his own music. Maybe the contrary is true.... Maybe he's being quiet because it'll make the surprise that much bigger? Maybe he feels he talked too much last time? Maybe he just doesn't wanna give updates just for the sake of giving updates? Or before there's a plan? I don't think it's some kind of meter on how excited he is in his music.


The same applies to not playing unreleased songs live. I don't believe there's a rule that states if you play some unreleased song live, it means you believe in it and you're excited about it, and if not, the opposite must be true, It could just simply be because they tried the other way in the past and decided not to do it on the last tour. Why play new unreleased songs at shows when you don't have a release date for the song? Just to prove you "believe" in that song? Well, does this mean he believes in Silkworms more than say This I Love (which was only performed live after the album was released)?

He could be excited about the new music and telling everybody around him about all these songs, and we wouldn't know.


There you go.



/jarmo

No, all that's fair, Jarmo.

As for playing the new songs, I was just contrasting the 2 eras of touring.  I only think its weird it stopped because he showed a history of doing just that prior.

And I guess the inference I make is that when he played the new stuff in 2001/02 and 2006/07, he was saying to everyone "you gotta check out this new shit we've been doing, its awesome".

Do you think that's wrong?

Also, I think there as a difference. Prior to the album coming out, there was more of the "it's never coming out" talk.
So in that sense, playing a few (then unreleased) songs made sense.




I don't think that has changed.
Meaning, I don't think he feels less about the songs that are yet to be released.

But yes, part of the reason back then could've been to introduce the fans to some of what was to come. A slow introduction.




/jarmo

I often think a part of it (new songs not being played live) was because at least part of the reason it happened before was to demonstrate the new sound of a long delayed album. CD2, from what we know, was largely recorded at the same time as the first one. So we've already had our preview of it - Chinese Democracy.

That said it is a shame in all those years of post album release touring that we didn't hear at least one or two new songs. If the huge figures of unreleased material are true, one or two songs wouldn't have blown the load. Then again I can also see the hesitation. If people hear one new song after 6 or 7 years and think it sucks, do they give up on the whole thing? And which new song? One or two aren't likely to be representative of the whole set.

The fact remains the Vegas residencies and much of the post 2010 touring has been very heavily skewed to AFD and it's likely that any reunion touring will be the same way. It's what makes sense. It's what people will want to hear. Personally I'd love, if new material isn't where we're headed, a UYI heavy setlist but really, what are the chances? Hopefully Slash and Duff have a few favourites from the era that they'll get in the show's though. That'll be something, if not new, at least fresh.

(Side note: why does everyone in the online communities seem to think So Fine sucks? Would love to hear that again)

I really dug the versions from December 1991 to mid 1992 with Duff and Axl sharing vocals.

I don't believe anyone who says Chinese Democracy is better than AFD, Lies and UYI combined.

Given the difference in output it's tempting to see it as 10 years of something that worked against 20 of trying to make something work.

I don't think anyone is trying to say CD is better than all the rest combined objectively though. Just a matter of personal preference. In terms of amount of play I've probably listened to CD more than the early albums myself. Objectively it may be a confusing mess but that's part of its charm and what makes it so interesting. A lot to sink your teeth into. It's just a matter of what appeals to you. I can hear AFD and recognise it's the greater album by most standards and it's stood the test of time, all that. But it's a sleek, easily understood thing that doesn't leave much room for interpretation. It sounds like what it is - a bunch of hungry (for fame, girls, success, money) guys navigating the seedy world of 80's Hollywood. CD, for the most part, is a bit more thought provoking. And if we don't ever hear the rest it'll be a damn shame.

Tought provoking? Don?t see it. Maybe One In A Million or Civil War are, but there is nothing like that on CD.

Me neither.  I find it a "try hard" position.

Perhaps I would feel differently if I ever heard even one person that was a fan during their prime that ever says this.  I never have. 

I was in 6th grade when AFD came out, so I was able to experience their prime and understand and appreciate it.  I can't say I ever heard anyone around my age with that sort of pedigree that ranks CD as their best album.

I'm a grade behind you, and I have the same feeling. 87-93 with multiple albums (great music) and nonstop coverage of the band. Then a huge dead period, followed by non stop touring for an album that never seemed to be coming and in my opinion when it finally hit it shows the warts of being overworked. I just think Axl tried too hard to create his Sgt Pepper or White Album and should have just focused on releasing music... water would have found it's level and would have been great. Instead to many layers were added and changes made... for example cleaner versions of some of the demo's we heard over the years would have been better than what we got. Everyone try's to defend the album by saying it's guitar heavy like the electronic additions are the problem... when honestly the problem in some of those songs are that there is just too much happening and most of the 'too much' are guitars. For example Chinese Democracy has guitars by Bucket, Robin, Bumble, Paul, and Richard...and who knows how many of them are on more than one guitar track on that song. There are also songs that have both Brain and Frank of Drums (plus sub bass tracks by Chris)... That is just trying too hard.

That to me is why Appetite is so brilliant. sure there are random guitar fills, but it is 2 players and maybe 4 tracks. There are 5 guitar players on the song Chinese Democracy. With all of the recording additions, engineering, and tinkering there isn't one song that is ever going to be recognized by the rest of the world like Sweet Child O' Mine.

I get it if you grew up with the post 2000 GnR, you want it to be recognized as the best version... I just can't see how anyone who has lived through 87-2014 and seen all of it can truly say anything in post 2000 GNR was better than pre 93 GNR. I am not at all saying that you couldn't have enjoyed CD, or a specific song, or shows that you saw... I just can't get on board with thinking that any of it is 'better' than what the classic line up gave us. I think there is genius buried in the CD songs, it just got covered in an avalanche of production and multi-tracking. With that said I listen to it all the time. I have been listening to CD a lot since the recent news reflecting on the past. I pulled out audio and video from concerts I've attended (2002 Boston, 2006 Hammerstein, etc...) Things have been fun and frustrating at the same time over the past 15 years. BUT to this day 1993 St. Patrick's Day at the Boston Garden in a snow storm is the best GnR show I have attended (and it's not really even close).

Not so sure, some people  have said they take Buckethead,Fink, Brain,Tommy, BBF, DJ, Richard, etc over Slash, Duff and Izzy. If they meant what they say then it?s clear for them CD is better tan AFD, Lies and UYI.

everyone knows Appetite will stay their best album.

Chinese Democracy is equal to the Use Your Illusion albums, that's not that bad, by my standards.

No he shouldn't. NU GNR was what it was because of the actual "band"

Axl, Slash, Duff, Izzy and Steve/Matt

That is what people know, and that is why they cared about anything post 1996 for Guns N' Roses.

My favorite shows would have to be Indianapolis 91', The Hammerstein Shows in 06' and The Vegas Residencies in 12' and 14'- but there have been so many great shows with different lineups and from different eras it is so hard to choose.

I can truly say I have enjoyed every GNR show I have attended.