Here Today... Gone To Hell!

Look, let's put our cards on the table here.

You have:
-No album in seven years, and no real signs of its release being of any real importance or being anywhere on the foreseeable horizon
-The band's two lead guitarists have quit within the past year, and the status of the band's bassist is uncertain.
-You have no news, and a promised window of when an announcement was supposed to be made regarding the band's status rapidly closing
-You have absolute and total radio silence on the state of the band from the only member who really matters, despite rumors of a reunion, rumors of the band being disbanded, and other rumors flying for the past year.

It would take Axl all of five minutes to say:

"Yeah, Slash and I are on friendly terms again, but a reunion (partial or full of either the Appetite or UYI lineups) isn't something either of us are interested in at this point in our lives"

or

"Despite the departures of Bumblefoot and DJ Ashba, things are moving forward within Guns N' Roses. Any rumors of the band being disbanded or the Appetite/UYI lineups reuniting are false. As of now, the band consists of myself, Richard Fortus, Tommy Stinson, Frank Ferrer, Dizzy Reed and Chris Pitman; We are currently searching for replacements for DJ and Bumblefoot. While I unfortunately can't give any definite deadlines about anything, I can say work on the new record is continuing, and I hope to see all of you guys on tour once our new members are in place! Thanks for all your support and patience  - love, Axl"

Would either of those two statements be that hard for Axl to write?

Axl doesnt owe you anything ok. You need to move on with your life  ;) :D

Neither of these statements would be hard to write.  But, for whatever reason, they can't be bothered.

I asked Fernando point blank his last time here if they felt there was some strategic advantage they thought they were achieving by being so tight lipped all the time.

However, much like the several other direct questions I asked him that day, he didn't offer an answer.

I think Axl already addressed all of these things, years ago....

If you're waiting, don't.  Live your life.  That's your responsibility not mine.  If it weren't to happen, you won't have missed anything.

Best answer he could give to any of these things, past, present, future.

Why is this quote always couched as the height of nobility?

It's not that I don't see his point, because I do.  I'm just confused why this is supposed to be some great comment to be lauded.

To me, it just sounds like another excuse.

I can see why you'd see it that way.  But at the end of the day, I see Axl's point more than I see yours.  People obsess and feel way too entitled to something happening that doesn't really have any bearing on their lives -- they just try to twist rationality until they can say that it does.

I can somewhat see your point because Axl gave a few statements that Chinese Democracy would come out before that point, and it didn't.  So you can say he broke his word and that disappointed us.  But overall, waiting around for Axl, his album, his next tour, news -- they all involve us spending our lives sitting around waiting on someone else.  That's on us, not Axl.

OK, fair enough.  I see that rationale.

Personally, I don't feel entitled to know who is in Guns N' Roses, or if and when they've another record coming out, but it would be nice to have some communication.  As far as I can see, there's nothing on their website listing the band members, let alone the kind of biographical information etc. that can help people build a kind of relationship (or even just give a damn).  Yeah, they (he, let's be honest) don't owe us anything, but let's not pretend to surprised if the world at large doesn't care about the band as it is now if they can't be arsed putting themselves out there. 

Right on the money, this post.

They are absolutely free to run things as they see fit.  No one has ever said otherwise.

The problem is that when some of us point out they are getting the results their approach is going to garner, and they get all offended.

Life is what you make it.  GNR has turned themselves into the epitome of a niche product.  One with very little relevance outside hardcore fans they developed 25 years ago, when they did run the operation like they gave a shit.

Some of the fans the band has today weren't born 25 years ago.

Hello?




/jarmo

Oh, then I take it all back.

Their outreach is tremendous, their marketing, savvy, and their business plan, the envy of the industry.

I get confused sometimes.

You mean most of the time.


Just because you look at yourself as some kind of example of a GN'R fan, doesn't mean what applies to you is true for everybody else.

Maybe you've missed the fact that a lot of GN'R fans were too young to experience the band in the 1980s/90s?
But it doesn't mean they're not fans or don't exist.

And yes, some saw the band for the first time on the last tour. Amazing isn't it?



/jarmo

LOLZ

Look, I know you have a whole floor routine of mental gymnastics you perform to make it seem like everything is super awesome and totally normal.

I share neither your compulsion for same, nor the benefits to carry that water.  So I can't partake.

Yeah, so much for being interested in discussions.

Saying only people who became GN'R fans 25 years ago are interested in the band today, can easily be checked if you ever attend a show and look around you.
Or, if that's too much to ask for, just check the Internet...

More of the same silly generalizations from you to try to prove a non-existing point.


"Oh no, somebody told me I'm wrong about something. I better pretend it didn't happen...."  :D




/jarmo

It's like the "if/then" hypothesis from hell, Jarmo. 

IF they have fans that became fans post 1993, THEN they are doing a hell of a job on the business end.

That's preposterous.  If that's an opinion you hold, I neither share it, nor think I'd have too much trouble finding people to join me in dismissing it.

As usual, you take a inconvenient subject you don't like (this band is run pretty shoddily, lo these past 15-20 years) and take one point of a post to focus on instread (most of their hardcore fans are people from way the hell back) under the insane rationale that if you can disprove that...why, it all falls apart!!

As if that somehow disproves the part you don't like. 

Sorry, charlie.  Not the way the world works.

Your conspiracy theories are amusing.

You post rubbish and I point it out. Simple as that.


The fact that the biggest group of people who liked my Facebook page for this site aren't people who were fans 25 years ago says something.
The fact that a big number of concert attendees were hardly born 25 years ago says something.

For you, this makes zero sense.

I couldn't care less what your opinion on how the band handles its business is. I know how little you know.
I see you post bullshit and I'll correct you with the facts I have. You refuse to take any of it in and try to make it about me. What else is new?

Yes, there are hardcore fans who bought Appetite when they were in school or after. Yes, yes.

There's also fans who were born in the 1990s and never experienced any of the MTV VMAs live on TV or watched GN'R on PPV.

Edited to add: So, in short, they didn't "develop" all hardcore fans 25 years ago. No matter how much you want it to be true.



/jarmo

Count up all the under 25 fans you want.  Have them over for pizza.  Do a big Instagram group shot where they all flip me off.  Live it up.

What changes about :

A terrible record of communication + a terrible record of promotion + a terrible record of reliability = a steep decline in both relevance and impact

What's it change?  Nada.

You seized on a throwaway point to try and change the conversation because the actual point being discussed was a stone cold loser to try and champion.

Not the first or the last time you'll try it.  Not the last time I'll systematically and calmly discredit it.

It's our thing.

You post something as a fact, I correct you. You try to ridicule me and go on and on about other stuff I have very little interest in talking about with you.

Why not just admit you were wrong?

Then we can continue.



/jarmo


Ps You were wrong..... Wrong! :o

I'm all set, thanks.

Said my bit up there already, feel it stands up.

As suspected.
You just can't admit to being wrong. I think you might have done it once or twice.
And you got the nerve to talk about so called terrible records...  :rofl:


To anybody else that don't get it. This guy posts a fact that's obviously wrong, then gets upset because I correct him, and refuse to discuss his tired old opinion on things he has limited understanding of, due to his lack of skills to take in information.

Edited to add: You really shouldn't talk about "terrine record of reliability".... Or I might remind you of your past posts on the subject. Again! :D


/jarmo

Jarmo, what am I supposed to be copping to here?

That you have some anecdotal yarn about some random Facebook page that just blows this WHOLE CASE wide open?

Is that the thing?  Is that what we're down to now?

Let's just go ahead and try and clear this up.  I hate loose ends.

I say this :


But, you...you don't like that. 

So you come back over the top with this :


And, from this little point/counterpoint, we've determined :

I am "wrong" about my opinion this band has very little relevance outside longer term established hardcore fans...

...because you have some anecdotal story about a Facebook page and some members of a live crowd?

I'd like to you to be clear here.  I want to make sure we get to the bottom of this, given your obvious level of interest.

Anecdotal?

Are you serious?

You make a claim that the band's hardcore fans were all there 25 years ago. I point out exactly why you're wrong, that a large number of the hardcore fans weren't even born then. Then you can't take this info in, but you got time to ridicule it though.


So yeah, the band is relevant to a lot of people who weren't fans 25 years ago. Sorry. I know you don't wanna hear about it, I know you don't wanna be presented with actual facts that can be backed up. It's too much! Because you know what you know, and that must be true.


Unfortunately for you, that's not always how things go.
Sorry!

Also, the rest of your post is you old opinions on things that have been talked about. Yet again, you keep repeating the same old. There's not even a hint of you learning anything new, or actually taking anything you might have read posted by somebody else into account. You're not interested in discussions, you're just interested in hearing your own voice (in your head as you read out your own posts).



/jarmo

I think the majority of people that still give a shit about this band are older school fans, yes.

Older school fans that were such big Axl fans, they stuck with him through all this nonsense.  Yes.  I believe that.

If you disagree with that, so be it. 

But a random Facebook page and those people you saw at that show that time are *not quite* the slam dunks you seem to think they are when it comes to refuting that point.  Not in my opinion.

If you think they are, great.

Yet a lot of that rant seems to be about me, doesn't it?  Not the actual topic. 

I think you got some issues, Stan.

A random FB page? How is it random? It's related to to band these people are fans of.
I don't get how that's random and not a way to describe the average hardcore fans on Facebook.

Also, I told you about younger fans attending shows.
Two real word examples. But you refuse to acknowledge any of it because it goes against what you already know.

Not all hardcore fans were around 25 years ago. Sorry.



I got issues? Coming from you, I take that as a compliment.




/jarmo

It's repeatedly stated all the time how little online GNR fans make up of the entire fanbase.

Now, all of the sudden, a certain contingent of online GNR fans represents a plurality of GNR fans, if you feel it helps you on something?

Well, that's mighty convenient.

For what it's worth, I'm 26.  I got into Guns N' Roses after the Greatest Hits came out - but I was about the right age to be getting into rock music anyway, and GNR were always kind of there in the background.  I like the band, I like most of their work, I think Chinese Democracy is a very good album, but their relevance and impact on my peers is pretty marginal.  Friends of mine, rock and metal fans, know and love Sweet Child, Paradise City and the old hits, but nobody ever talks about Shackler's Revenge or would recognise Street of Dreams if you played it to them.  Classic Rock has, I would say, a cohort of fans in any generation, but I think most classic rock fans of my age and younger would think of Guns N' Roses in the same way as Led Zep, Deep Purple or Hendrix.  Or, at best, in the same way as the likes of AC/DC - still around, decent live show, may occasionally put out new records, but interesting primarily if not exclusively for songs they put out decades ago, and never thought of as among the leaders of the pack of contemporary rock music.

I wouldn?t be surprised if Guns N? Roses lost as many fans as they gained with the release of Chinese Democracy.
I don?t know anyone that liked it, but I know a lot of people that would wear out the skip button if I put it on.

I?d say GN?R has always been among the more popular bands in my circle, and probably always will be(?87-?93), but Chinese Democracy was the moment my friends totally lost interest in the future of Axl and what he calls Guns N? Roses.

The next fan of Chinese Democracy that I meet in person will be the first.

Let me explain it to you once again.

You made a case that all hardcore fans were fans already 25 years ago.

I made a case why I think you're (once again) wrong and offered proof to back it up.

Nowhere did I make the claim that all hardcore fans are either online or on Facebook. That's just plain stupidity.
That's more of your defense tactic. Try to ridicule something that proves you to be wrong so you never need to admit being wrong.


In essence, you're wrong and can't handle it. Sorry!





Thanks for sharing that.

Apparently if you believe certain self-proclaimed Internet experts, you don't exist. :hihi:




/jarmo

Agreed all around.

That last point especially.  Whenever one of those life or death battles crops up amount how many copies it sold, that's always my thought too. 

"It was 3 million"..."It was 5 million"..."You are counting copies Best Buy was forced to buy, not copies that actually sold"..."You know, a lot of bands would be thrilled to have sold that much in this day and age".

All this hand wringing and chest puffing.  And for what?

At the end of the day, how come I don't know one other human being that could tell you anything about the album past its name?  How is that not a bigger deal?

All the more so when I can count several GNR fans amongst my friends and aquaintences, but all people that gave no fucks about anything Axl has done in 20 years.

No, I didn't. 

Nowhere in my post does it say "all".  Not in the original post, nor when I requoted it, nor is there any evidence I edited it to take out the word "all".

You have propped up a strawman, because it sure beats the shit out of having to have a substantive conversation about the gross mismanagement and poor decisions that have left the band where they are today.

I don't share your passion for having to avoid uncomfortable topics.  Never have, never will.

Maybe running to any thread like a dog that hears the dinner bell every time you see I was the last post is not the play if its going to lead to this sort of hysterical output.

Your little grudge is pass?.  Move on.  Even Emily and I get on these days.  Join me or avoid me.

So instead of pointing it out, you kept arguing?  :rofl:

Your post and opinion is faulty. I provided info. You ignored it as usual so you can always be right.

I'm sorry you never encountered hardcore fans who are younger than you. Also, nice job ignoring the rest of the post. More of the usual.




Don't flatter yourself.  :P

Start learning some new tricks and we'll see how it goes. Maybe if you actually managed to take something in for once, things would be different. But instead, you keep repeating the same old bullcrap.



Edited to add:



Obviously since they have hardcore fans who weren't around 25 years ago, they have relevance outside of your group.

So, you're wrong.



/jarmo

'

That's super.  Glad we cleared that up.

Tell you how this is going to go, sport. 

Whatever humor I once found in fighting with you in every single god damn post has long been exhausted.  The last time I got fed up with your unrequited crush, I just started ignoring you.  Only to then have you follow me around thread to thread, quoting what I said either directly or indirectly, and doing the equivalent of waving your arms and shouting my name in the hopes I might again pay you some attention.

Eventually, I bit.  So that part is on me.

But then, God sent me mortismurphy, and you made him your new stalking victim.  Once he got tired of you and left, it seems custody has reverted back to me, but I'm not interested.

So we are going to go back to how things were.  I have an entire site full of people that want to talk about issues and have some fun, and one lunatic who wants to follow me around and talk about me.

I'm going to stick with the former and exorcise the latter.  Should you ever grow up, we can revisit.

Good luck with your next object of affection.  I hope they have my patience.

This from a person who claims to be interested in discussions.

Yet, he feels it's his right to say whatever ridiculous things that comes to his mind without anybody ever daring to question what the hell he actually said.

I told you how things appear to me. If you managed to act the way most people act in a discussion, I wouldn't make those observations.
But that never happens...

So now it's my fault that you're acting like a pompous know it all with no concept of how to take in information, process it and come to a new conclusion based on it? That makes sense.
 



Enjoy the pity party! Poor you.  :beer:



By the way, your personal insults have no place here.
You just keep proving how incapable you are of what you claim you're after. Personal insults....Didn't you claim you were above all that?  :rofl:






/jarmo

You are not the problem. The problem is the oficial GN?R social media and those fans participating there (mostly new ones) Fans who don`t speak English so very few people can understand what they are saying. Those who speak English all they say is "come to Brazil" or "Axl I love you". They don`t really discuss performance or music.

Also there are others posting selfies and pictures of their tattoos  or their towel with a GN`R logo

Well I couldn`t care less about all that. So I?m not around those people

It takes a bit of courage to speak in a language you're not 100% comfortable in speaking.

"Come to Brazil" is actually supportive, even though after seeing it as a comment to everything, it can get a bit too much.  :hihi:




/jarmo

What is it exactly about Brazil and GNR? I never understood. Or is Brazil like that with a bunch of acts from that genre?

Hard rock and heavy metal are way more popular, and perhaps accepted, in some countries compared to say the USA. People are less inclined to follow trends maybe?

Regarding Brazil and GN'R. There's history between the two.

First time GN'R went there was for Rock In Rio in 1991.
As far as I remember, GN'R was probably if not the biggest, then among the biggest, international bands in Brazil at the time.

Sure, they were huge all over the world. But it's different when you're in a country that doesn't necessarily (at the time) get all the bands when they tour.
If you lived in Western Europe, Canada or something similar in the early 90s, you'd have chances to see bands come around on tour. Brazil, maybe not so much.

In addition, I wouldn't even say for sure that hard rock music is the most popular genre in Brazil.... So it's not because everybody listens to hard rock.




/jarmo

They are very passionate. I guess it is the soccer culture. They bring soccer like atmosphere to the shows. And they are proud of Team Brazil and I don`t blame them. But they don`t have a clue. If tomorrow you take the stage with Axl as lead guitar they are gonna love you no matter what. You could be the worst guitar player in the world. And yet some of them are gonna say you are better than Slash

Yep.  We've all seen the shot of the girl in the fright wig with her ridiculous banner about Ashba.

I think crowds down there are amazing in terms of their energy.  But while I think it makes for a cool spectacle to see, and can make a great crowd on a live album or bootleg, I would NEVER want to be in one and be expected to conform to that non-stop rah-rah bullshit.

It reminds me of the student section at college football games.  Only in this case, the student section is the whole stadium.

The funny thing is that crowds are similar in places like Portugal, Spain, Italy....

Also, you're making a big generalization. But what's new?




Yeah, imagine a crowd that is into it instead of being there to judge it.
Oh the horror.




/jarmo