Here Today... Gone To Hell!

I've been trying to find a silver lining in all of this, and I think I may have found it...

In pretty much every interview DJ did from 2010-2014, he always made it a point to say that he did not join GNR just to "fill in" and would mention his desire to both write AND produce the next Guns record.  He would regularly mention the 10 demos he sent Axl and how it was a matter of time before they dug into them.  Ron quipped several times in various interviews that he wasn't interested in emailing tracks written by previous members back and forth, and that he only was interested in recording together as a group.

We know Axl had/has been doing...something...in the studio with Chris.  We know that he has at least two more albums worth of material left over from the Chinese sessions. We also know those tracks contain OTHER guitarists, and were largely, if not, completely finished.  Could it be that DJ caught wind that the next album WOULD NOT contain anything he wrote and, if he continued with Guns next year, it would simply involve him "filling in" when said tracks are released?  Meaning, touring on yet another GNR album written and largely recorded by previous guitarists, like he did for Chinese.

In a strange way, DJ's exit may possibly hint that we might just be closer to the forthcoming album that we may have thought.

Could DJ's (and to a lesser extent Ron's) exit mean that Chinese Democracy II/Stay Of Execution may be around the corner? Thoughts?

I think this might be the case too.

And, another silver lining might be that, without them around, they don't even need to be on the album.  Meaning it could be Bucket/Robin stuff untouched, which a lot of people always said they preferred.

That's my hope as well.  If they were still around, Axl may have felt inclined to shoe-horn them onto the album somehow.  Now he's free to release the tracks however he wishes, featuring whoever he wishes.

I think there's a chance we'll hear Ron on the next release, but that doesn't make a difference time-wise anyways since he probably recorded those guitar parts years ago.

Agreed, particularly on 'Atlas Shrugged'. I'm not aware of DJ ever recording on any of those tracks, unless it was done under the radar. 

So, if Robin decides to re-join and if they somehow can lure Bucket back into his chicken coop, I would be a very happy man on the next tour!  :D

Right, Bucket, who has released 600 albums the last years and left because of lack of productivity, would come back to GNR who havent been doing anything the past years.

Gotcha

Oh man, I would be beside myself.  I've always thought that Robin & Bucket's guitar styles complimented eachother to an insane degree.  That said, a Bucket return seems almost as unlikely as Axl & Slash taking the stage together again.  I think Bucket's feelings were really hurt during his exit, and I have no idea if things between him and Axl are cool.  Whereas we know Robin is still chummy with everyone, including Axl.

I place Slash and Bucket as equally probable for a return.

I agree. We're closer to the new album than most of people think. Just my 2 cents.

Honestly, I'd be more than happy with Robin and Richard as a duo going forward.  Their chemistry is also extremely dynamic and I'd love to see that live again.

It sounds weird to say, "Gee, now that 1/4 of the band has left they can now release new music" but I think you may be right. 

To the OP:

I both hope and have a slight feeling we'll hear music next year, and it'll be as you say, the second part of Chinese.

Frank was playing on nearly every track on Chinese, so I think he probably features just as much on CD2.
Richard will get more air time and writing credits.
Tommy plays on all tracks, same with Dizzy and Chris.
Axl... well.

DJ & Ron, the two guys who left. They don't have any writing credits on the Chinese leftovers. One of them is probably not even on the record.


It is as you say, probably not a coincidence that it's DJ & Ron who went away now.

It does I know. But seeing how they were the two most outspoken members regarding their "vision" for what the next GNR album should be, it does free Axl up quite a bit to release whatever the hell he wants.  Which, ultimately, is better for the fans.

Ahh.. I see. You think I was being serious about Bucket.

 :no:

I think this was a bigger problem for Dj & Ron than Axl.

Knowing Axl, he's probably known what the tracklisting for the next album was going to be since 2010.  It likely just took DJ and Ron this long to learn that the tracks had been laid long before they decided to throw their 2 cents into the ring regarding the next album.  :hihi:

All evidence has indicated that Axl's desire is for the next release to be comprised of those songs and not of brand new recordings by the 2009-2014 lineup. 

Ron and DJ both expressed numerous times their desire was to do something new but that never materialized (I think a couple years back Ron expressed his discontent that any release at this point would be comprised of unreleased songs from the CD era, not new songs by the then-current lineup)

I would've liked to hear what the most recent iteration could come up with but the I'm more interested in hearing the rest of the stuff from Bucket/Robin/Fortus. 

At this point I just hope we get to hear final versions the remaining the CD-era songs.  Anything else is icing on the cake. 

They were never in the "band", in my opinion.

Just touring musicians that never contributed anything of note creatively under the Guns N' Roses banner.

My sentiments exactly.  If we can get to hear the remaining unreleased tracks, I will consider that a major victory both for the fans and Axl.  Anything additional that the band puts out in our lifetime would be viewed as a bonus by this fan.

I know would definitely want to hear Robin and Bucket's work untouched too. Plus remember Axl said Robins part on the next were already done, and that was after Robin rejoined NIN

Fernando...

You have chimed in a little bit about Ron

What about DJ? Was Axl blindsided this?

New album would be wonderful...But regaining the live chemistry of Ron/DJ era GN'R may not be so easy....

I don't think there was much chemistry between DJ & Ron TBH.  Now, Richard and Robin, THAT was some beautiful chemistry. See their duo performance of 'Beautiful' from 06-07 for reference. Either way, I'm hoping the concentration behind the scenes is more about getting the next album out than worrying about the touring lineup.

If 2016 ends with The General on my Apple Music playlist, all will be well in my book.  : ok:

It's TRUE

 :smoking:

+1 to this.
anyway, I don't think this matters too much. this "band" or we should better say "project" is not really based on any bandmembers and any actual release still includes parts recorded many years ago. so if we're gonna get a record sometime in the next 15-20 years or so, we can still count with Ron's or DJ's parts on it, as well as Bucket's or Robin's.
if.

How about some "fans" call it what it is -Guns N' Roses, yes it is a band.

Am looking forward to the next release.

It doesn't matter what you call it.  Music is the only thing that matters.

right. and if there's zero music, zero releases, zero promotion, zero activity (besides various band members giving up and leaving) - you know what I mean :)

What?




/jarmo

I would imagine that Ron & DJ's subsequent departures from Guns basically solidifies that the next release will consist solely of unreleased Chi Dem era tracks.  Which to me is such fantastic news.  The lineup that created that music was so creative and diverse, a full album of unreleased material from those sessions is pretty much the coolest thing I could hope for.

I just hope the 'new' CD era material is a little more Robin heavy than Bucket heavy... Two of the more bucket influenced tracks on CD (Shacklers and Scraped) are my least favorite of the 14 tracks.

Looking forward to the track Axl said has an awesome Stevie Ray Vaughn-style solo :drool:

I'm really curious as to just how much, if any, of Bucket's parts appear on the next release.  We know that a good portion of the album was recorded while he was still in the band from 2000-2003. I guess it would be a matter of Robin/Richard/Ron recording over his parts from 2004-2007. I wouldn't imagine Axl would be inclined to choose a Ron solo over Bucket's since he's no longer in the band, and has made a point to talk about how miserable he was in Guns in various interviews.

Richard recently stated that his favorite unreleased track features a great solo from Robin, so I think it's a good bet that he'll feature pretty heavily on the next release.

That quote always stuck with me too.

Just can't imagine how that fits in with the CD era sound.

Soul Monster (Leave Me Alone) & The General have me the most intrigued.

His solo in TWAT was pretty badass though

it probably means that there will not be any new guitar players this year, and well into 2016.
IMO  it would be wise to say.... "fk it" lets just chill... and see what happens... and make a sober decission.

really no point hiring a new guitar player right away. They/he need to get a grasp of situation/emotions... and decide then.

Fernando, Dr. Sin (one of the best brazilian hard rock band of all time) is over, and of course you know how awsome Edu Ardanuy is. Go get him!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZggY19fs1_g

That's interesting, definitely two of my favourites in terms of the heavier material, especially Shacklers.. live it's just awesome.  The sheer amount of guitars on Scaped is awesome too.

I like Scraped more than Shackler's...Sorry is a Bucket tune too...great song imo.

I don't get some of the negativity thrown at Shackler's. After Better & TWAT it's probably my third favorite track on the album.  It's structure is creative as heck, and Ron's fretless solo is pretty mean. Not to mention, it kills live.

I'm hoping we see more 'outside the box' tracks like this on the forthcoming album....Whenever the hell that comes out.  :-\

Yeah, Shacklers is great live, and on the album.

I assume some don't like it because it's different.




/jarmo

Three of my favorites, I listened through headphones last night and I'm always amazed at how really great these songs are. :)

I like it a lot.  Its pretty catchy and some great guitarwork.

But it takes heat because its a pretty radical departure from the established GNR sound.  Which, while I don't dispute, I still can't believe people were still on that by the time it came out.

Yeah, I remember the first time I listened to it in 2008 I was blown away by how "different" it was, even from the other Chinese tracks we heard up to that point.  There's just so much going on, I could see why it would scare away traditional "rawk" fans.

Edit: I'm hoping the final version of 'Silkworms' has just as much going on, assuming we get to hear it one of these years.  :hihi:

Anything out of the ordinary is often scary at first.





/jarmo

The thing with Shacklers is, I think it sounds different at first but then when you really listen to it.. it kind of just sounds like a really heavy GN'R tune?

I pretty much agree.

The guitarwork is obviously drastically different.  But the overall song structure is not that far off.

But that's the thing, if you can't get over that hump...

The same applies to other songs as well.

And yet, Paradise City has a synth in it!  :hihi:




/jarmo

Shackler's is a catchy song, and honestly, the more 'experimental' songs, the ones that deviated more from the traditional GN'R sound, were my favorite on the record.
The songs I love off of CD seem to be the ones most hate:

Riad
Shackler's
Scraped
This I Love
If The World

I don't think it's even that drastically different if you listen to the rhythm of the fills, excluding the (good) insanity of the solo it's arguably just lower..

Durring the years we were waiting for an official release, and really only heard CD, Maddy, 'The Blues', and Riad... I tried giving Buckets solo work a try and could never attach myself to it.

I love the guitar work he did on songs that were influenced more by Robin (like TWAT which was brought up). I just can't get used to entire songs that are based off his riffs and ideas. Even Axl's vocal work is overboard, over processed and over produced (IMO) on songs like Shacklers, Scraped, and Sorry. I've tried to let them grow on me... and while I can certainly sit and listen to the album front to back with no problem, I find myself (for example) when I know my car ride is running short skipping Shacklers to get to Better, skipping Scraped to get to Riad or Sorry to get to IRS.

As far as the 'Stevie Ray Vaughn' Solo... I don't know if this has been specifically disproven in an interview, but just reading through Chinese Whispers I tended to think he is talking about the 'bluesy' solo in This I Love.

But didn't we hear this in the chats, AFTER the album was out?

I thought that's where that came from.

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/articles/showarticle.php?articleid=168

Ya, looks like it's from a Del James interview... thought it was an older quote. [EDIT] GNR2014 beat me to it with the link.

That feel though from the TIL solo, is what I love/loved about GnR... so if that is me being a 'RAWK' fan like someone said earlier... so be it. I just don't 'feel' it during bucket playing with his kill switch and playing a guitar like a slap bass.

Robin's TIL solo is awesome.  His best stuff, I think.

I want to hear more from the Bucket/Finck era. Some of the solos on Chinese (TWAT, TIL) are awesome.

I always felt this was a band based around the guitars.  Its why I never really care who the drummer is.

And I agree, the guitar work on that album is very strong.

Most of my friends who like rock n' roll and such, enjoy Chinese Democracy. Most of the tracks.

But I have yet to hear one say they like Shackler's, Rhiad or Scraped. Even a very good friend of mine, hardcore Guns fan who grew up on them and is a musicican himself and totally fascinated by Axl's voice and performances, simply can not bring himself to listen to Scraped or Rhiad.

Weird.

That said, as someone mentioned here above, to me Shackler's is Democracy's Brownstone.



 

Hey, that's another thing we agree on.


I think I've mentioned it before, but Chinese is a guitar heavy album in a time when other bands used less guitars.
But a lot of people seemed to overlook that because they heard keyboards and samples.  :hihi:



/jarmo

That's very strange, reminds me of how The Stones' Exile on Main Street was really panned by both fans and critics, only to be appreciated years later.

I personally think the music on CD is very strong, some narrow-minded individuals won't give it a chance because they perceive it as different, or a departure- when in reality it is just a continuation and an evolution much in the way that the Illusions were an evolution from Appetite.

Shackler would have been a great first single, it's catchy, rock, and modern.

It?s really not that strange.

Exile on Main Street is one of the greatest records of all time, and stylistically not far off from Beggars, Let it Bleed, Sticky etc.

Chinese Democracy is not a continuation, and it?s not an evolution. It is different. It is a departure.
That?s not a narrow minded view, that?s the reality of the situation.

The band that crafted AFD, Lies and the Illusions imploded.
An entirely new band of players was assembled. People with different musical backgrounds, influences, life experiences and playing styles.
They happened to play under the same banner, but that is essentially where the similarities end.

Revolution would be a more appropriate description.

It is not a departure lyrically....how is SOD or Catcher or TWAT or Sorry or Irs or This I love or Madagascar far off the Illusions?

I think if it sounds like an evolution to your ears, than that is all that matters.
I, and most, would certainly not agree, but you could say the band was successful in making a record that sounds like a natural progression.
But the fact remains, they had no hand in the prior records. For all we know, they never heard, or liked the prior records.

Do you think Bumblefoot wanted to expand upon Slash?s sound? or leave his own mark as a musician?
Does anyone truly believe a song like Shackler?s Revenge is a sound Izzy Stradlin would be interested in playing/crafting?
And even if you think he would/could, isn?t that a disservice to Buckethead?

It?s a different set of musicians, and they are not interchangeable.

Axl?s lyrics, sure, you can file those under evolution as he was there.
In some ways, Street of Dreams sounds like November Rain light to my ears, or a UYI B-Side because of Axl?s voice and piano but the guitars, as great as they sound, do not sound like an evolution from prior records. They sound like different players altogether. Because that?s exactly what they are.

It?s not meant as a knock to say it?s not an evolution. There are songs I rather enjoy on Chinese, but would never make the leap that it?s the progression of Guns N? Roses, when it?s an entirely different set of players. If that were the case, let?s say Axl get?s drunk and decides to sell the GN?R name to Izzy.
Izzy (and Dizzy for good measure) then put a mariachi band together and records, releases Use Your Illusion IV, the search for III, the next day. Would that be an evolution of the GN?R sound? Is just having a player from previous records, and the rights to the name all you need?

Agreed. 

It's a fork in the road, not a continuation down the same stretch of highway.

I think you went a step too far with 'Sorry'.  'Sorry' would sound totally out of place on UYI albums.  Though I do agree the others would fit.

Great points.

I like that last paragraph, in particular.  Its why you have to be careful how rigidly you define things to make them work in your head.

I don't think..and I know I'm in the minority, here...that MOST of CD is a HUGE departure from the Axl contributions to the Illusions.  In fact, I can see a pretty clear musical evolution/genesis from there to here.

BUT, that being said, CD is considered such a radical departure from AFD and UYI because, IMHO, you don't have the Slash/Duff/Izzy contributions.  So, without those "mix ins", the overall sound of the album is (understandably) different.

I don't really see the guitars as an evolution as they are radically different in style than UYI.....more the increase of keyboards, orchestral arrangements, etc as a logical evolution of Axl's contributions to the Illusions. Really, it is evolution musically and lyrically on Axl's part. 

I don't know...just rambling.  :nervous:

It isn't an "entirely" different band, you still have the main song/lyric writer present, and steering- Some of the songs are very different than Appetite, but you can say that of the illusions as well.

My comparison to Exile seems to have been misinterpreted, sure it is a great album- BUT it was at first reviled by critics  read up on your music history. I think in time, like exile-chidem will be appreciated more.

While different, and recorded by a different lineup, I do think Chidem retained the GNR flavor, I can hear echoes and various similarities with other GNR songs in many of the cuts- so, yes I think it is both a new beginning as well as an evolution of previous albums.

Well, unless things have drastically changed since that 2009 interview, he DID say the "same players" are featured on the next album, as in primarily Robin & Buckethead, with maybe some bits from Ron and Richard.

We can only hope the upcoming news Fernando & Frank have mentioned is regarding its release.

Fair enough.

I got your Exile comparison.
It?s my desert island album, so I?ve read up on it?s history more than I?d care to admit.

I love the Stones, but would take 'Let It Bleed' or 'Sticky Fingers' over 'Exile'.

I even think 'Some Girls' is a dark horse.

Some Girls is the quintessential "Ronnie" Stones album IMO.  Mixed his country flare from Faces with Keith's dirty rhythms. Pure Magic.

I always go back and forth as to whether my favorite Stones album is Sticky Fingers or Exile though.  Every time I hear 'Rocks Off' I'm just transported.  Such a dirty, mean track.  Then again, Sticky Fingers could win just for Mick Taylor's insane solo on 'Sway'.  God I fuckin' love the Stones.

Sway eh? Remember when GN'R covered it?




/jarmo

Holy crap, I totally forgot they covered that with Izzy in '06.  Just gave it a listen.  Man Axl was really into the lyrics.  The man has good tastes haha.

I would agree, I feel that of the 14 songs, there are really only 3 (Shackler, Scraped, and Sorry) that are a big change from previous GnR material and I chock that up to the larger influence on those songs from Buckethead (they are his only writing and arraignment credits). Again, I am not saying they are terrible, they just aren't my cup of tea. I bought a lot of his solo material in the early to mid 2000's and tried to make myself like it but I just can't.

The other 11 tracks, I love... call me 'closed minded' but Buckethead in my opinion doesn't write good music. I'm sure there are artists and styles of music people on this forum can't get on board with, which is to be expected, but as an example if you hate country music and suddenly they hire a bluegrass guitar player and he writes a song that makes CD2 (or whatever it will be called) you don't have to like it just because it was released under the name GnR.

I think that's what the majority of the die-hard fans desire, including me of course. My perception is there is a lot of very strong material floating around, and Axl -being a perfectionist as he is- doesn't want to discard it just because the exact personnel that created it is not in the band right now. I also think the previous 10 years of the release of ChiDem were a very productive (creatively) time for Axl (for lots of reasons), and time made him realise DJ and Ron are very very far from Robin and Bucket in terms of creativity and talent (in fact, I dont think you have to be the brightest person in the world to realise that).


I think this is the most likely option, and I really hope this is what actually happened. Knowing an album is in the works, that this album is going to have songs written in the good old days with Robin and Bucket (most talented persons that have been part of this band apart from Axl), and that DJ leaves the band because Axl showed no intention of letting him create stuff for the band (or the stuff DJ gave to Axl was not at ''GNR level'') would be all very GOOD NEWS for me.


At this point, in my very humble opinion, getting Robin back in the band and working with just 2 guitarists would be the best option (considering Bucket would never return to the band). Richard is an EXTREMELY talented guitarist that never had enough space in the band to totally prove it. And Robin... well, we all know who's robin onstage and inside a studio.


I'm also expecting to hear ''Silkworms''! i'm sure it will be a killer tune. I am a great fan of ''experimental'' songs. I love when artists, knowing what's the ''safe'' path to repeat success, choose to pick the difficult path of innovation. And Axl knows how to innovate, and Robin & Bucket were the perfect people to innovate (and that's why the old-school fans hate them), not the case of DJ and Ron at all.

Motley Crue - Saints Of Angels (Lp 2008)

Writing ----->  Nikki Sixx, James Michael, DJ Ashba & Marti Frederiksen

Guns N' Roses - Chinese Democracy (Lp 2008)

Writing -----> Robin Finck, Axl Rose, Buckethead, Tommy Stinson, Dizzy Reed, Cris Pitman.

Take Your Conclusion

 :smoking:

As for the Stones.....one day my fave is Sticky, one day it is Exile. Sway and Rocks Off for that matter are both fairly obscure Stones gems....in other words, not the big radio hits but easily 2 of their top shelf songs.

As for Bucket, I can take or leave Shacklers, Scraped and Sorry. However, his solos on the album are fuckin great, and I am quite sure there are a lot more we haven't heard yet.