Here Today... Gone To Hell!

For some reason, even though we've had periods with months of tour breaks in the past 6 years, I feel this break is different. I'm slowly getting back to a 2006 sort of feeling, in anticipation of the next move.

Axl was handing out Chinese Democracy platinum awards to everyone who had a part in GN'R in recent time and my personal opinion on that is that he was closing out the Chinese Democracy chapter of GN'R. New adventures ahead.

I can remember the excitement of new shows getting announced starting in February of 2006 if I remember correctly. The wait had been considerably longer back then of course, but still I feel that this time there's something similar in the air. Of course, that feeling will not kick in 100% until the first show has been announced, hopefully this time to coincide with an album.

Can you guys remember how you felt back in 2006? For me, that was the real comeback for Axl. I remember 2001/2 fondly, but in a different way for some reason.

I have a strong feeling that if there are shows getting announced before there's an album, this time they'll play some new songs. I know, I know.... we say this e-v-e-r-y time they start a new leg of a tour. But, like I said, my experience of this whole thing is that they closed out their newest album with the last run in Vegas.



Finally, I would like to say that I hope to once again see a forum that'll pretty much explode with people and posts, especially during their first new show. It's pretty fun.

You mention 2006. But, December 2009 often gets overlooked.

The first shows of the band since the album was released. The first with Dj.

2006 was, as you say, the return of Axl. 2009 was similar, but it was also the return of GN'R with an album out.




/jarmo

2009/2010 was big, I agree with you there. And what a payoff we got as fans! Huge setlists, biggest production in years and an Axl who sounded better than ever.

I think of 2006 differently though, just because they hadn't released the album yet and the setlist was a total surprise in the first shows. Of course, I don't know if that's the way it'll go down this time around but right now, that's the feeling I have. Hopeful and nostalgic (it's been 9 years after all).  :)

I guess the fact that there was several interviews with Axl just ahead and during the tour starting in 2006 added to the excitement.

2001/02 was like the toe in the water test for the comeback.  I think it was obvious he was not quite ready.  But I think he needed to get that out of the way.

2006 though, he was awesome.  In great shape, in great voice.  And the shows seemed more like their own thing.  2002 really seemed like a GNR coverband with as of then unheard songs mixed in.  2006 seemed more like a band.

2009/10 are the best shows since the album came out.  I don't think its close either.

What's next?  Well, I think he only really has one more big move left.  One more album one more tour behind said album.  He's not a kid anymore. 

I hope he has one more great run.  I hope he uses this time off the past year and however longer it goes to get in good shape, good voice, and do it all right one more time.  That would be awesome.

Do I expect it? 

Not really, to be honest.  I'm pretty much giving you the best case scenario there.

When it comes to his voice, I'm not an expert on the workings of the human singing voice. I do know that he sounded very good at the last Vegas shows, so to me that tells me he still has it in him.

I suspect that 2009/2010 was Axl going full throttle at all times and when that caused a lot of wear to his voice, he gave more controlled performances in the following years, for durability really.

2006 was also different in the sense that we didn't know the guitar player replacing Buckethead.

Some new songs performed for the first time as well.

But then in 2009, it was like it was for real. First tour since the album, more new songs, more longer shows....




/jarmo

Yes, I've seen that speculated as well.  And it could be, if you listen to the bootlegs of that time.

I thought he sounded good in Vegas in 2014 after sounding pretty rough in South America.  I'd love a quality bootleg of one of the last few nights in Vegas, great shows.

Agreed all around.

And 2006 was cool when they played the leaks we had all been playing non-stop for 3 months.  It gave you an impression this actually was going to happen.

You really shouldn't post things like that. It's like scoring in an open net! :D


The next chapter will be interesting. For the real fans.
In a way, it might be like 2006. If they decide to keep the guitar player situation secret.





/jarmo

Yes, I loved both years for different reasons. In 2009 you could be pretty sure that they wouldn't play any new unheard original material ? it was after all the Chinese Democracy tour. But still, there were a lot of songs from that album that had never been performed live and that was exciting. A new guitar player was also something I remember being curious about.

2006 was more about a mysterious atmosphere surrounding Guns N' Roses. They had been gone for years and we had no idea of what to expect really. We're sort of in a similar situation now, with band members being in or out? Is there a new album coming out? Stay of Execution? Chinese Democracy 2? There are lots of things up in the air...

I have no clue what to expect the next time we hear from Axl... and its becoming clear it's most likely going to be a little while considering all the commitments Richard and DJ seem to have lined up...

Who is in the touring band really doesn't interest me much...I personally hope Duff is the bass player.. but that's about it.

I really just hope to hear some of Axl's hidden gems , the next time he performs.

See, and my original post had a line right after that saying, "But I would not force even my enemies to listen to the South American shows."

But I thought, hey...why break balls?  But, I mean, if you want to break balls...

Just hypothetically, if say Buckethead was back it wouldn't interest you?

That would be a miracle.  And awesome.

No matter what you add, doesn't change the fact that it can be summed up in one word: Karma.

Next time you want a bootleg of a show, don't tell people to stay home!
Now, go play with those balls.....  : ok:

Ironic innit!



/jarmo

Man, I have got an Inigo Montoya t-shirt with your name all over it, my friend.

Do we do Secret Santa here?  I call Jarmo.

Like I said, open net.

I got an iPod manual with your name on it, it explains the repeat feature so you don't need to put the same songs X times in a playlist to play the same song over and over.  :)




/jarmo

Yes but only because I assume he created a lot of the guitar parts that will be featured on the next record. So yeah of course I'd always prefer to see the person responsible for the song on stage. However I can't say I have ever been a fan of Bucket's whole package.

So if Ron is gone.. he'd be my first choice to step back in to that role for that reason.

Why do you think Bucket would be back after he's been gone for over a decade?




/jarmo

The whole schtick is goofy, no question.  And this is a wrestling fan saying that.

But the dude can flat out play.  That's all I care about.  I like a number of musicians and athletes that are weirdos and/or jerks off the field or the stage.  Never really bothered me.

I also think if hell froze over and both Bucket and/or Robin came back, it might reignite some of Axl's (hopefully) dormant fire.  For the reasons you said, that's who created the music they are playing.

Oh I don't ... I think Saul is more plausible than him.

Oh, NEVER gonna happen.  I see no plausible scenario.

Haha, yeah, so do I.

I was just wondering if it didn't matter to you at all, or if it means something to you.

So, you do care a little bit?  :P

Lawyered!

I figure it will be some other guy I never heard of.  I didn't know Ron from a hole in the wall when he joined.  Hell, I never knew anything about the guy he replaced either.

I don't think anyone think that'll happen. I only brought it in as a hypothetical example.

Hahaha.  See, now this is funny.

I truly thought the repeat was for the whole playlist.

Great success! You learned something new.



Hypothetical discussions can be fun. :)



/jarmo

Ha yes I do prefer somebody who was involved with GNR in the past over another completely new guy.

Yeah, but everybody that leaves seems to burn the boats.

The amount of ex players that have come back to play shows greatly out weighs that of the ones that have never.

Who hasn't come back.  Slash, Bucket and Steven.   I will count Axl singing with Gilby in LA as a show

you forgot Brain, I think

Matt, Josh, Paul (maybe in the studio).

Brain did play bongos at one gnr show in 2012.

I remember being at the Hammerstein shows in 06 and the anticipation in the air before they finally came out. Great show, great atmosphere. Band sounded tight. Axl was definitely on fire that night.
I dont think it would be the same type of anticipation in 2015. Unless it was a reunion. ( This from a guy who hasnt been calling for one)

Yeah, but those are one offs.  I'm talking as a full time guy on a tour.

Bucket and Robin helped create this material and want nothing to do with it. 

Would you? Unless your in it for the money or for the exposure that it provides in order to market other ventures. I think that whoever is in this band will always have to deal with the burden of being in one of the most legendary bands of all time.

Bucket got wise pretty quick. 

But I don't get Robin.  He eventually arrived at the same conclusion Bucket did, but not before staying on for 6 more years.

If you want nothing to do with the material, you'd assume guesting on a song you wrote at a show would be out of the question? Yet, that's what Robin did.

There's a difference between making assumptions and stating exaggerations as facts.



/jarmo

Oh, you mean like a one off?  I guess I should have said that.

Actually...

You mention a one off, then say they want nothing to do with it.

Somewhat of an oxymoron.




/jarmo

Well, let's assume for the sake of argument another album does actually come out.  Robin has to be all over it, right? 

Do you think there is much chance he will come back in any real capacity to support it?

Bucket won't even allow discussion of his time with the band.  Hard to argue he's all that enthused about it.

Will he come back? I don't think so. He seems happy doing what he's doing.
Does that mean he wants nothing to do with it? No.

If he goes out in public and announces he wants nothing to do with it, you might have a point. Until then, you're just exaggerating again.



/jarmo

What's Robin doing now anyways?

Always been crazy to me that he was around for so many years and bolts right before the release...

I can't help but think if communication between all parties were better things like that wouldn't happen.

I don't think we'll ever get to know his reasoning behind that. He hasn't commented on his leaving as far as I know.

Unfortunately... his silence a long with Bucket on all things GNR and those songs make you believe that it's not important to them and don't care about their time with Axl.

Doesn't mean its true... but that's what it looks like.

Plenty of GN'R talk here: http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/interviews/interviews/robin_finck_ive_been_very_blessed_with_the_opportunities_and_ive_enjoyed_saying_yes_to_them.html



/jarmo

Thanks! Somehow I've missed this interview.  :)


He seems to have only good memories from his time in Guns. Praises Buckethead as well, it doesn't come off as it was any friction between them, as it has been speculated in the past.

Pretty funny that part of the reason Robin came back after leaving the first time and they ended up being 3 guitar players, was that Bucket was improvising so much when playing the old songs that they needed the 3rd player as an anchor to the melody.  :hihi:

I never saw that interview either, or at least don't remember it.  Cool

Still don't understand the timing of his departure.

Not sure how certain Axl was that Chinese would get released soon at the time Robin left. If it was still up in the air, I can understand him joining NIN again with some uncertainty around GNR.

If the whole band knew that the release was just months away, it's more of a mystery. Robin leaving was probably the major holdup for the subsequent tour.

My guess is that because GNR were neither recording nor touring then (nor any plans to tour at the time), he was not generating any income.  Under that circumstance, if an opportunity with NIN arises and you can make money again, it's hard to say no to that.  Perhaps if CD had been released sooner, he would have had an income stream from his royalty shares on that album and so would have been in a better position to say no to Reznor.

I'm not sure if the band members were in 2008, but in the "dark years" of 2003-2005 they were on a retainer per Brain. Though, touring with NIN would probably generate more money for him personally.

You've been working on your own solo album?

Yeah. I was in the throes of that when Trent called me for this tour and so I'm looking to get into that when this tour lands at some point next year. I've really been woodshedding on my own and the songs are born on piano or guitar and building them up from there. But I have yet to introduce them to any wall of noise just yet.

This is from the interview, Jarmo linked.

Looking forward to that.  :)

I'd be surprised if they were still on retainer in 2008... I think the label had cut off funding by then, so I doubt Axl would have been paying the band members out of his own pocket while they were sitting at home.

I think the timing is pretty logical. NIN were getting short of a lead guitarist, and getting ready to tour the world.  
Guns were on a break.

Robin accepted to join NIN. leaving Guns the options. 1 Wait for Robin. 2. Finding a new guitarist.

Looking foward to a Robin Fink solo album indeed.

Funny thing is, NIN played their last show in the Wave Goodbye tour on September 10, 2009 and then went on hiatus. Robin could actually have joined Guns in Taiwan for the first show in 2009. But by then Dj had already joined...

So they decided to move on without waiting on Robin. Or maybe Robin said that he dosent want to to continue with guns.

But its quite strange that since Robin joined NIN in 2008 GN'R and NINs tours has crossed paths only in 2014.

There is a certain truth to this over the too statement

If bucket and Robin really liked and we're proud of the material they created during CD. Why haven't they ever played anything from it, during the other live concerts.   I have never seen bucket break out one of his guns solos.  Or Robin try and play anything from guns live.

Most,other guys that are in bands that have written songs, once they leave.  Take a a couple as there own to play on there own live.

I think so.

Bucket is clear cut as can be.  He forbade discussion of his time with GNR on his site, the only one of the myriad of projects he is involved where that happened.  Not the actions of a man that left with good feelings.

With Robin, just look at the facts.  Axl gave him more of a chance to show his creative wares than Trent ever did.  Robin spends the better part of a decade on the project.  When the payoff is about to come (finally) he bolts to go back to being a session musician/touring band guy for Trent.  Who is picking that set-up if they are happy where they are?

As for playing stuff he did with GNR live, Trent is unlikely to allow that given how he feels about Axl.  He trolls him pretty hard.  So that part does not surprise me.

Has Robin done any solo shows since leaving guns?  Or has it all been with NIN

I think there was talk of a solo album at some point.  But I don't think it ever happened.

Well I read the interview where Robin talks about that solo album and gnr....   

But I doubt his solo album would have anything to do with anything he did with guns as well

What I was getting at was, has Robin done any solo live shows...  Outside of guns, outside of NIN....  I would like to know if he has, if he broke out any of his guns work

I don't think he has done solo shows, more like he's played with other people.



/jarmo

Here is the extent of Robin Finck's ascap writing credits. He is going to do a solo show of songs he wrote with 8 other people?  :rofl:

1.BETTER Work ID: 323536438

2.CATCHER IN THE RYE Work ID: 334474378

3.CHINESE DEMOCRACY Work ID: 334393698

4.PROSTITUTE Work ID: 463436497

5.RIAD N' THE BEDOUINS Work ID: 482479334

6.SHACKLER S REVENGE Work ID: 495999098

7.STREET OF DREAMS Work ID: 497227195

evidently Trent doesn't hand out writing credits as generously as Axl!  :hihi:

And this is what I was getting at.  Axl gave Robin way more of a chance to express himself than Trent ever did.

So if you have a choice between a band where you were allowed great input and freedom versus one where you are just a hired hand session type of guy, why would you pick the latter unless things with the former went south?

Well, exercising my free thinking here. You want to play live? Or it pays the bills? Or you had a fun time with the band in the past and it seems like a good idea? Or it fits your schedule?





/jarmo

Sure.  Or it could be the thing I said.

Aren't you the guy in the other thread telling me that you are about different opinions?  Well, we got one here, looks like. 

You have what you think, and I have what I think.  The big difference is that I'm not going to jump up and down until you agree to recant yours. 

We just see it differently, guy.  If you agree, great.  If you disagree, hey, that's life. 

Except my points are based on common sense and not feelings.

You think that because he quit, something must've upset him. So he can't under no circumstances be happy about his time in GN'R, or want anything to do with them.
You feel this is how it is. Taking in information does not matter. The feeling is there, not changing. Robin got upset and quit. That's it. That makes sense to you.

Other people look at it and go "ah, makes sense. GN'R wasn't touring, Robin got an offer from his old friend and took it. Then GN'R hired Dj so the vacancy was occupied".

I bet even if Robin told you that you're wrong, you'd think he's just protecting Axl!  :rofl:



/jarmo

Hmm, I'm not so sure about that in this case.

Both of us are giving very plausible reasons why things went how they want.  But what is the disconnect?

I would argue its you pushing back hard on what you see as a negative connotation.  It bothers you.  That's emotion, not just cold, detached analysis of facts on the ground.

I don't dismiss out of hand what you have suggested, because it all makes sense, on paper.  If that's what you think, that's what you think.  And maybe its right.  Fine by me.  I don't agree, but I can't rule it out.

But what I think?  Unacceptable.  I need to stop saying it and I need to stop saying it right now.  Because its not a picture you want to see painted.  Nowhere am I claiming that my opinion is the gospel truth.  But, to you, even suggesting it is out of bounds.

That's a emotional response.

What you say is always based on the image in your head. Nobody likes to be wrong. You really want to believe you have an understanding of what these people think and how they work. After all, you bought the albums and copied them for your friends. you know your stuff. Or so you'd like to think.

From my experiences, you don't always quit a job, change a school, stop hanging out with somebody or whatever because you don't like it. Things just happen. It's life.
Anything GN'R related to you, is based on the simple fact that they can't stand being in GN'R. It's never that person, it's always GN'R. Because that's the image in your head.




/jarmo

We seem to be shifting more from the topic at hand to long standing problems you have with me, personally.  Which I think are well documented.

And will be brought up again during the next topic we disagree on.  You tend to not need much of an opening to start talking about me the person instead of the topic.

I've come to accept that's just how things are.  Such is life.

In order to "argue", it helps to understand why the other person is saying what he's saying. Hence I'm explaining the difference between what makes "sense" to you, and what makes sense to me.
I know, this requires some free thinking. But, it's not really a whole lot of it. Maybe it's too much for some.



/jarmo

I guess I got just confused.

Confused how a discussion about why Robin left the band winds up coming back a comment I made, a year ago now, about burning CDs for some friends.

That's on me, I suppose.  Looking at it now, the connection is pretty obvious.  I don't think you can have the Robin leaving discussion without it, really.

Haha! I used it in a descriptive manner. Just a little harmless ball busting.

Like I said, I described why you say the things you say. I painted a picture using words. Maybe it was too many words.  :-\



/jarmo

Yeah, you're getting better with that.  Credit where its due.

Thanks, but I think it's been pretty constant at least for quite some time now...  :D



/jarmo

Robin could go back to GNR but it would probably be more about working on existing songs he took part in. No one knows what Axl has planned and he seems to like it that way.

The next live performance probably comes down to what offers someone sends them to do shows and add some gigs surrounding those dates, and maybe there will be new songs.

gOOd iDEa

 :beer: