Here Today... Gone To Hell!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3n_f_JOkU9E

"A short documentary about one man's plan to get Guns N? Roses back back together. Growing up best friends with Slash and Axl, Marc Canter had a front row seat for the rise and fall of one of the greatest rock bands of all time. Nearly thirty years later, if anyone knows what it will take to get them back together it?s him."

Another of those "I'm the only one who can reunite them" bullshit claims but I still found this video interesting. Marc Canter is the one who wrote the "Reckless Road" book.

I watched this yesterday.

Can't imagine Axl is terribly thrilled with it.

He didn't actually state that he could reunite them... not that it matters

Cool video of Axl playing at his wedding... say what you want about this guy... but he was extremely close with both guys. Certainly, he was pushed from Axl's life.

I never really warmed to the whole Canter thing.  The dude seems WAY stuck in the distant past. 

When he talks, I kind of feel like I'm listening to Al Bundy talking about scoring 4 TDs in one game for Polk High.

I think you could say the same thing about any of us posting on a Guns N? Roses fan forum in 2015.

The major difference being that Marc was actually there, and has forgotten more about Guns N? Roses than we will ever know.
It?s also thanks to him that we have Reckless Road, which is a pretty fucking awesome document of the classic lineup.

Hahaha agreed.

I don't think he is malicious or out to make a dollar doe.

He wouldnt denounce Slash. therefore the powers at be put him on a list... then doing his thing on mygnr had to put a nail in the coffin. He seems naive about how that could be seen as a good thing in Axl's eyes.

Agreed... Everybody has on opinion but he was best friends with both guys, not some fan postin on the internet. He has a unique perspective. Unfortunately no longer, so when he answers about questions about how Axl might feel today... He is obviously just speculating, albeit from a different angle than most.

The book is aces.

What was doing his thing  ??? Any link available

There is a section on that site where he answers questions. Nothing outrageous or malicious. just his opinions on Classic GNR and stuff about old shows and setlists.

Sometimes people will ask why does a hate b and he gives pretty standard answers, nothing anybody hasn't heard before.

^
Thanks  : ok:

Im surprised this hasnt been moved to the Dead Horse section.

Let me take care of that for you.

Don't want to disappoint you.

Edited to add: There. Better now?


/jarmo

so, who don't think he can reunite GNR these days?

funny to see all the crows around a rumoured dead body.

Good Luck Mark!!!!

Crossfingers here. :peace:

That was the band i really felt in love... n i will love forever

A reunion just for money and nostalgia? nope.

Maybe a reunion for music? That is good?

Nope.

A reunion for 'money and nostalgia' would be terrible. Far better to play Appetite in casinos. Oh, wait...

Never really bought into all this supposed disdain if they reunited for "money and nostalgia".

You'd be there buying tickets with the rest of us.  Stop the madness.

Would we really expect an album?  Axl can't release songs that are done for 10 years.  But he's going to "dive in and find the monkey" with the old guys, post haste?

Not likely.

Certain fans who would wet themselves if there was a reunion are the same ones who've been whining about the "cash grab" and "pointless" touring. Ironic.




/jarmo

The argument could be pretty easily made that if you going to see a show built around a 25 year old album, there is more value in seeing the people that actually recorded it than seeing the fill-ins for the fill-ins do it.

I just find it hard to believe people would stick to their guns and not go see a reunion tour out of some artistic objection.  Its the very height of pointless conjecture as its never going to happen, but if it did, I don't think there would be many hold outs on that front.

Yeah... you would give anything to go see Buckethead and Robin play Sweet Child o Mine and Rocket Queen, but not Slash and Izzy...Funny.

Stay of Execution featuring everybody from Bucket to DJ and release all the left overs under that name and play some shows featuring those songs and then a classic/illusion reunion... that would cover every nut job on the internet wouldn't it?

Cannot apply to me since I have never coveted a reunion. An argument though can be made that, seeing as Axl is now a golden oldies act anyway with his new band, he may as well deliver the same 'nostalgia' with the creators of the nostalgia. The best argument after all against reuniting in my opinion was the prospect of new progressive music and not the same 'Snakepit' style albums.

That, or even on a more base level, just to do SOMETHING with the name and keys to the operation.

Instead, we have one album in 20 years.  And are starting to look very seriously at what they are doing in regard to releasing further music (once we figure out who is in the band).

Was it the Loder interview where he said "they didn't record all this music just to sit on it"?  Ah...memories.

Yeah. You could make that argument. But at the same time, you know it could be labeled the ultimate "cash grab". But obviously those people wouldn't make that kind of objections then now would they?  :hihi:




I disagree. I bet some would see it as the ultimate "sell out".

Another phrase often thrown around.



/jarmo

If Axl wanted to play with Slash or with whoever again for WHATEVER reason... People here who praise every thing he does or show ultimate support would all of a sudden think less of him?

Come on...It's Axl's life and his art... the people who are behind him 100 percent wouldn't knock him for any kind of reunion...

I think some of them would feel betrayed. Some people have that vibe.

Just like some never accepted the fact that Axl kept going. Two sides of the same coin.




/jarmo

Not for one second.  

There would be a new set of talking points how this was all good in the hood by close of business the day it was announced they were talking.

Slash would also undergo a miraculous recovery in perception, almost instantly.  

Isn't that how it went with all the others?  What other time Axl patched it up with one of the guys did people not get right onboard with it?

Izzy said some flat out brutal things about Axl, did he not?  Did anyone care once he got onstage and played 4th guitar on 'Patience'?  Nope.

There is always somebody who will HATE everything... Unfortunately, those people can't be helped.

With the exception of some fans who live and breathe with Bucket and Robins parts on Chinese and feel that is the only GNR lineup to them... nobody would be upset or not on board.

Yeah... all was forgiven with Duff and Izzy when they made amends... same would happen with Slash, not that I expect them to make amends.

Oh I know. I've dealt with plenty of that kind of people over the years!  :rofl:




I might be exaggerating a little. But there's some fans who would be a bit let down. Like they might feel like they supported Axl though it all only for him to go back to the old band.
Kinda like they were wrong and all those people who hated the (new) band and were clamoring for a reunion were right.



/jarmo

In a weird way, they are my favorite group of GNR fans.  Mostly for humor's sake.

They wax downright poetic about that line-up, don't they?  A line-up that was only together for what, 3 years?  Released nothing.  And really, did they even play 50 total shows?

But those guys go on like that line-up were the fucking Beatles of their time.

I like when they say they don't just want an album of stuff that line-up did, but a BOX SET.  Are you high?  Where is the market for that?  There isn't anything approaching consensus even within GNR fandom that stuff was utter brilliance.  And you think you can market a box set of their outtakes?

People are a trip.

Wouldn't you buy it?



/jarmo

I would... get all of those songs out.

Buckethead and Josh Freese would probably like to hear them .. because you know they don't remember what they did ha. 

I'd be interested in it as a lifelong Guns N' Roses fan.

But I damn sure wouldn't want to be in the pitch meeting trying to sell the label on funding and marketing it.

That's the kind of thing that might come out on some bootleg at some point.  An official release?  Be serious.

Is that a yes or no?


FYI, plenty of box sets have been released by bands less popular than GN'R. Wonder why since there's no market for them....




/jarmo

Yes he did.  Not with those words, but with his grand vision and presentation at the end about how Slash and Axl could be reunited.

If it is a choice of getting a reunion or the remaining Chinese outtakes, that is no choice at all. I would take the latter. But considering we have neither of those two, we have the worst possible scenario of all: a cash happy 1980s nostalgia act which does not even have the common decency to be bona fide nostalgia.

Why do you keep coming back to repeat the same boring lines week after week?

Your posts could've been made in 1995, 2005 or 2015.

You were gone for a while, it was pretty nice not to read your whining.  :peace:
Shouldn't you be on some AC/DC fan site talking about their exciting new tour when they'll play all those exciting (three) new tracks?



/jarmo

I agree.

Our latest voice of reason.

I doubt it. The first two of those years bring forth completely different historic scenarios.


It has been virtually dead. Face facts, the debates - what you consider 'whining' -  (and I am not just including myself in this) increase the activity here, tenfold. You yourself suddenly become a hive of activity whenever they surface, only to become a deaf mute whenever they disappear.


Is that a sarcastic joke about a band who smashed Chinese Democracy's sales figures in the same year, and are now out on a tour with a brand new album for their fans to enjoy?

Back to the Vegas my friend. Welcome to the Jungle and a bunch of casino chips beckon.

I'd be interested in an answer. :D






Yeah. They have a new exciting album and will possibly play three new songs on tour. Whoopee!
You should be so excited instead of wasting your time on a fan site for a band that doesn't do what you want.


I'd take GN'R in Vegas any day over AC/DC.

But that's just me, a GN'R fan.


/jarmo

I always find it very interesting when people who really disagree with the site's general tone and editorial policy then worry about site traffic, and use it as justification of their own ramblings.

It's so logically and intellectually bent, it makes me giggle.

AC/DC has played 3 new songs at their shows so far. Just like they did last time they toured. According to www.setlist.fm, their set consists of 24% songs from "Back in Black", 17% from "Rock or Bust". Compare that to GNR's latest run of Vegas shows where they played 22% from AFD and 14% from CD. Not exactly a huge disparity there.

True.  Then again, AC/DC is drawing from more than a 4 album/1 EP back catalog.

3 or 4 new songs is about what you are going to get from an arena/stadium act. 

But then you have U2.  If you go see them, you best have bought the new album.  The ZOO TV tour, the first 6 (sometimes more) songs were off 'Achtung Baby'.  Springsteen also hits you with a lot of his new stuff.  But they are the exceptions of acts on that level.

But CD is seven years old!! Rock or Bust is a brand new album. At the conclusion of the Rock or Bust tour, it will probably still be just around three years old.


I am a fan of music. I suppose that is where we differ. I like a lot of different acts and genres. I do not really feel the need to have a official ''best band'' or ''favourite band''. I get the impression that you only really like gnr.

But there is nothing there!! When a forum ceases to have posts, it basically ceases. Do you know how many forums have become ghost towns? What is the purpose of advocating a policy which can only lead to your own demise?

This is a fool's errand, mortis.

They have said, point blank, they aren't the least bit concerned with a day, or even a week, with no posts.

Its a textbook agree to disagree on this one.

I'm a fan of lots of music. But I don't go to those artists' fan sites.
I think the latest Marilyn Manson album is better then the previous one. But I don't post on any of his fan sites.
I'm a member of the Pearl l Jam fan club, don't take part in their forum at all though. Just two examples.

So there goes your theory.
Maybe it's just that you like to whine and feel important....




Still interested in an answer regarding the box set though. Yes? No? Third time I'm asking the same question. Nothing like acting like the question was never asked. More of the same.




/jarmo

personal one to you Jarmo, but, due to your position, did you meet Eddie at some occasion?
Axl is a fan too, do they know each other?

Like I said...I giggle.

It's not your forum. You don't like it here. You don't like the content, general opinions, or editorial policy.  You have zero vested interest in whether the lights stay on.

So how is anyone supposed to take seriously that your concern is ACTUALLY traffic levels? Your concern, honestly, is that you be allowed to speak your mind.  And this is just one (intellecually bent) way to try to justify why you should be allowed to. And, I suspect, a way to try to inflate your own sense self importance and to try to portray yourself as "important" to the community.  Honestly...you're not either (nor am I, and I have no illusions I am).

You're not the one paying to keep the lights on, jarmo is.  They'll stay on, traffic or no, until he feels the need to shut them out. Right?

Not to mention: Do you think traffic and hits are his primary reason for leaving those lights on? I don't.

Thus, even if the argument were sincere, it would be a moot point.

But keep doing it.  I enjoy the giggles.

My two favorite frontmen from my two favorite bands.  But I can't imagine what the hell would they have in common to talk about.

I knew that was going to be your retort. The time between albums is a different argument than complaining about the lack of new songs played in concert. Not many bands are pumping out albums every 2-3 years anymore. Might have something to do with the state of the music business. Now granted, GNR take that to an extreme, but it is what it is.

I still think it's hard to compare GNR to any band in the history of music. They've done things that no other bands have done, both good and bad. People are always referencing AC/DC, Metallica, Pearl Jam, etc. and asking why they can't conduct their business in a similar fashion. I'm not saying no other bands have been through their own adversities and such and managed to carry on. But it's not an even comparison, so it's useless to try IMHO. You prefer the way AC/DC has managed their career and how they've conducted themselves. That's fine. You're certainly entitled to that opinion. But just because they've done things a certain way doesn't mean that Guns, or any other band can follow the same model with similar results. It doesn't work that way.

I largely agree with all of this.

However, do you think its unfair to say that the way GNR does things is fairly fucked up?  And its probably not a coincidence that no other band emulates their approach?

A lot of times, this conversation gets bogged down in :

- that's how its always been!
- but there is no one like GNR!
- go follow some other band, asshole!

Really hoping we can avoid that.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm totally onboard with the notion you really can't compare GNR to other bands.  I just never bought into the nobility of it all.

I always say the reason comparing GNR to other bands is a lost cause is because only GNR has Axl, a wild card among wild cards.  I just have never accepted that just because he marches to his own beat, its always a well constructed tune.

No. Don't think I met anybody in that band.




It's kinda amazing how two people with different backgrounds can usually find something to talk about. This happens daily somewhere in the world!
Maybe they could talk about the weather.....

So, would you buy that hypothetical box set you or not? Asking for the fourth time. A simple yes or no question. Not asking for some kind of long explanation here.





/jarmo

You realize that without the "eccentricities", you also likely don't get the same creative output, right?

He is who he is. He does things the way he does things.  Some of it is genius, and makes a ton of sense (especially when we get full plates of info, which admittedly is rare), some of it...not so much.  Meh, welcome to humanity.  The difference is...for Axl..it all plays out on a MUCH larger stage.

A lot of this goes to the discussion of OTHER eccentric creative types in history.  There's lots of similarities if you look around.  Guns n Roses is unique, I think, in that the "eccentric creative type" has been left to completely drive the boat.  Again, there are examples of that in history...both successful and not so much.

All very true.  Agree with all of this.

You take yourself far too seriously.


The argument concerns a sarcastic comment by Jarmo regarding the number of inclusions from a new album into a setlist. Considering New guns have not released an album since 2008 while AC/DC have released one, on top of the album released in 2008 also, it does not seem to be a very fair quip to make. Yes, DC have included only a few new songs but that is still hypothetically three more songs than new guns could ever include since new guns do not release albums and therefore do not have any new material to draw from. Also AC/DC have a new album to enjoy and there is a sense of purpose for the touring.

A fair enough point but it does not rob us of the quizzical nature and freedom to ask, ''why?''. When Axl talks about a trilogy then does not release it, it is human instinct to ponder on 'what went wrong?'. It is a bit of a cop out (as a fan) to go, ''it is how Axl operates'' and leave it at that.

Yeah, and considering that you're here instead of some AC/DC site talking about how exciting it is that they added three new songs to their setlist a few weeks ago must mean it doesn't really matter to you that much!  :hihi:

 :D




/jarmo

Says the guy sweating other peoples web traffic....

The fact is....only one of us is trying to justify a reason to continue posting, and using a site he has no vested interest in's web hits to try to bolster his argument.

I'd say thats pretty good evidence of someone who takes what they say too seriously, and an overinflated sense of self importance.

I'm simply pointing out you..you probably arent to be taken seriously. Given context and history. Especially not on this particular topic.

But you sure do provide some giggles!

Yeah, I agree.  We sure play pretty fast and loose with what things he's said in the past that are able to be referenced.

The trilogy thing, that's on Bach though.  Did Axl himself ever say that?  I'm not sure he did.

But move past that one example.  Axl going on about how "we don't feel we have a label"?  Bring that one up freely.  That's on the approved list.  

"We've already recorded the second half of Chinese". Can't use that one as freely.  Because what does he mean by that?  Maybe its this, maybe its that, etc.  

Look, let's just cut the shit.  Axl statements where he's passing the buck, no worries.  Bring that shit on.  Part of the official record.

Axl's direct statements about things he's said and hasn't delivered on?  Well...let's hold off on that one.  We don't have "the facts" on that one.

So, let me ask you for the fifth time, would you buy the hypothetical box set that you'd be interested in but wouldn't want to tell the record company to release? Yes/No?




/jarmo

Pot. Kettle. Black.

I mean, seriously...the diametrically opposed povs espoused here do exactly the same thing, here. You are just as "guilty" as the people supporting the pov opposite yours. And theres absolutely nothing wrong with it.

Explain away, or contextualize, the comments that dont fit into your pov, take the ones that do as the gospel truth.

Dude..thats discussion. Other than adopting a hive mind, or becomng stepford fans, i'm not sure what you're looking for, here. You essentially described, above, every debate, ever, in history. We all interpret things different ways...nothing wrong with that. Is there?

I dont see the phrases in question edited or censored...so they are not verboten. They are just interpreted differently, given the inherited context. No?

I disagree.  In all my time here I have never seen either of the following occur :

A quote from Axl where he is passing the buck that we are told can be taken with a grain of salt.

A quote from Axl where something he said but he never delivered is accepted as him dropping the ball.

Can you think of any?  That's a serious question, not a flippant one.

Your point about debate is valid, but is it valid here?  If you want to tell me that I am more likely to "blame Axl" than others here, that's obviously valid.  But when the other side "blames Axl" precisely never, how interested is anyone in a debate?

The only debate I ever see referenced is why people asking (what are deemed) uncomfortable questions can't just leave.

And hey, that is what it is.  I know the deal, and I deal with it.  But I'm not sure I have to accept this is some bastion of open dialogue and dissenting viewpoints, do I?

You and I had a beef today.  We talked it out, and it ended with me making my case in spots, and conceding a number of points to you.  No hard feelings either way.

Take a second and consider this.  The people that come after me...have I ever made a good point, ever?

A person avoiding simple yes/no questions shouldn't talk about "uncomfortable questions".

I get it, you're avoiding me.
"Uncomfortable questions". Funny. :D




/jarmo

Many. Of both. By various posters....including you, gingerking, mortis,  jaeball, bacon, and many others, through 13 years of posting here.

Your language, above, though, slghtly implies that you are looking for those things from "them"...meaning those with the viewpoint opposite yours. Thats much more rare. I can really only speak for my own postings and say i have acknowledged both as equal possibilities where appropriate.

But the flip side is also true. I can only recall very rate cases where its been acknowledged, from those espousing a specific pov, that axl is offering up an explanation for a change necessitated by someone else, or that there might be good reason for a change in deliverables/promises.

Which was my point. You expect the one side to "budge", and bemoan the rarity of that event. I'm pointing you to the mirror. Both sides are just as unwavering.


Again, how often does one sife "cut axl a break"? It might not be never, but its pretty fucking close.

Pointer: You are not making your case to the opposite team in a debate. They are firmly tied to their position. You're pitching to "the judges".

I'd point out,  too, that if people werent interested in the debate/discussion, they wouldnt post. Sometimes, debate isnt about changing minds. Its just about the content, itself.

And finally.....you've also touched on why my time here is kess an less, and more and more sporadic.


I disagree. I think that question, sometimes, is raised. I dont think its the majority f the postings made. And...nobody has actually shown anyone involved, here, the proverbial door...so you have to think the question is, at least mostly, in earnest.

You seem to be defining "open dialogue" as "eventually everyone agrees with me". I dont think thats realistic. I dont even think its realistic to expect much movement in overall position. I think you present your case, probably repeat yourself a couple times and/or add some nuance, and then agree to disagree.  That doesnt happen here, nearly enough, as both sides perpetuate beating horses long past dead.

BUT:

I haven't seen anything you post deleted or edited.

You havent been banned.

You seem to present a dissenting pov, often and well.

There seem to be replies.

Right?

Those fit my definitions as "open dialogue with dissenting opinions"



 Maybe not. But we give and take in our discussions..both of us, i think. Thats the way we roll.

So the question is, BESIDES me, have any of them made a good point, ever? The ones who "come after you". Again, it goes both ways, and theres a trust and repore that gets you to that place. I see both sides do the exact same things, over and over, and then point the finger at "the other side" for doing it.

Part of it,  honestly, is the "jarmo as the site owner vs jarmo as a member of the community" stuff, too. His posts get taken as having more weight/importance/gravitas because he owns the place. Maybe thats as it should be, but i think a lot of "stuff" crops up around what is jarmo's opinion, and what is jarmo's site policy. Most of the time, Jarmo disagreeing, or arguing against you, doesnt mean a topic is verboten. It means he disagrees.

Could you hit me with some examples?  Not trying to be a dick, but I seriousy can't think of one of either.

Not that my memory is infallible, but I do read the site every day.



Somewhat, yes.

Tony Soprano said in one episode that "'Remember when' is the lowest form of conversation."  I disagree, however.  To me, the lowest form is "Yeah, me too."  Just never found that all that compelling.  I will always be more interested in talking with someone coming at something from a different angle.

I go out of my way to watch the cable news network that leans the other way, because I'm looking for a different viewpoint.

Take you and I.  We don't agree on much.  But I still think we have productive conversations, because I will find myself seeing something a different way, sometimes.  That has more value to me than an echo chamber where we just confirm each other's biases.

Pilferk, you're trying to have a discussion with a person who admitted that he can only focus on two or maybe three topics at once. Just keep that in mind.
Also, a person who claims he'd be the first to admit he was wrong. But that rarely happens because it's easier to skip the parts/posts he's wrong about, than to admit being wrong. ;)




/jarmo

Hahaha

Well, in order :

- yes it has
- yes it has
- been threatened with it more than once
- thank you
- yes, and to be fair, only very few are totally unreasonable

Besides the sly shot you took above by calling it "passing the buck"? ;)

I'll look for some specific examples, real and implied. There have been many in the next album thread, and others in the various business discussions. Might not get quotes til tomorrow, at least.

But you're essentially asking me to find posts from "your side" that question axls quotes about other people being responsible for "stuff" ( and not axl), and places where axl promised product, failed to deliver, and was "blamed".

I mean....the whole "slash is a liar" discussion is rife with the first part. As were the lawsuit discussions (both over gh and the subsequent suit by slash and duff). Hell the goldstein thread and the discussion of there being no way it was all dougs fault that the euro tour was cancelled (how could acl not know) is a great example.

And you bring up the best example of axl being accused of dropping the ball: the second half od chinese. Its starting with the next album thread, too...because there is an assumption (despite how cds release pkayed out) that there will be nothing this year. Also, back in '06...tons of it related to axl not having releaed cd when the irond were hot.

You honestly dont temember places where ANYONE has done that?


I'm with you on the productive type discussion. My preference, too. But you cant get that with everyone...for lots of reasons.

Not everyone works that way. It can still "work".  And sometimes, with work, you can morph things to be more in line with what youre looking for. But it takes (at least) two to tango.

If it has, i havent seen it. But fair enough.

It doesnt seem to happen often, or when i'm around. And i dont see you having a real lack of input, mostly.

Threatened, but in the cases i remember, it was about content (ie: attacking the poster, not the post), not topic/ideas (well, unless you consider calling someone an idiot an idea) And...threatened or not..you are still here. So.....

Im just sayin...theres a lot more open dialogue with dissenting opinions than many people think. Rep isnt quite reality.

Let's get this out of the way, just so we don't go through this every day.

What's the upside of me trying to talk to you lately?

Whenever we have a sustained conversation about anything anymore, literally...anything, you just get upset.  If you object to the term, then swap it out for anything that conveys "visibly unhappy with".  And as you grow increasingly "visibly unhappy with", you lash out with a bunch of posturing and threats.

So I'm supposed to be in a rush to answer your often completely antagonistic questions.  Which, let's be fair, I rolled with for a long time.  I did.  I thought we got some good stuff out of it.  Made some points, had some laughs.

But lately, once I hit you with something you either can't refute, or simply don't like for whatever reason, at that point, "I'm going to be gone soon"?

Well...what's in any of that for me?  You following me around trying to bait me like a feisty umpire?  And the second I disagree with you, I better watch it?

Who's seeking *that* out?  It's a completely adversarial situation with no way forward.

I'm not saying its forever, because that's a mighty long time.  But at least for a little while.

It's just not productive.

I do not get upset about your posts. Stop believing yourself.


You come to this fan site and blurt out all kinds of deep thoughts that you may or may not have, yet you don't feel the need to stand up for any of it.

You just like to go by as you know everything better than everybody else. Your "this makes sense to me, and I know my stuff so it must be that way" routines are only fantasies. Pilferk already pointed it out to you. Your "free thinking" is exclusively used to come up with all these negative scenarios that only exist in your mind, and then are typed out on a keyboard, for the rest of us to "marvel" at.


You made an ignorant comment about not wanting to "sell" the idea of a certain hypothetical boxset to the label. Now, what kind of life experience do you possess that makes you think you know whether or not that particular product would be a viable release? I'm curious.

Also, you failed to answer my simple question that can be answered with one word. Instead, you did your usual dance around the issue. So much for unconformable questions.

Instead of "yes" or "no", we get "I'd be interested". Interested in what? Obtaining it illegally without paying? Looking at it? What?

Are you aware that bands who have less fans and are less popular than GN'R have released boxsets? Do you believe that boxsets are aimed at the masses or do you think they are marketed towards a certain little group of said bands' fanbases?

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but you'd like to think of yourself as intelligent. Am I correct?
So how come you think of one thing, in this case "Nobody would buy it, so it makes no sense to put it out" isn't followed by a minute or two of free thinking where you can come up with maybe one or two reasons why it would make sense? I mean, just for the hell of it!

This isn't the first case when this has happened. It seems like you often can't figure out any possible explanations to anything that would explain a certain matter. You always the take simple way out and that is "this is how it is because the idea is already in my mind".

I find it somewhat puzzling how the people championing free thinking are so uninterested in using it for anything other than negativity.
If you manage to use it for the opposite, that's productive. Then you've learned something new.




/jarmo

I don't think its a viable pitch. 

If I am a person in a decision making capacity at the label, I don't see that as a viable commercial release.  A box set of outtakes, from an incarnation of the band that never made any sort of mark to begin with.

Forget the casual rock fan.  You don't even have consensus amongst dedicated GNR fans that it's a good idea.

End of the day, its a business.  The release does not make business sense.

Would I like it?  Sure.  I also have over 400 GNR bootlegs on a hard drive.  I'm a hard sell as the representative of your average consumer on this one.

And finally, I'm told time and again that there are all sort of factors preventing ONE RELEASE.  He can't get one album out.  Its the damn industry, its the damn label, its the damn kids today and their Spotify.  No shortage of reasons there hasn't been a single album in 7 years, going on 8.

But let's toss all that aside and argue for something triple that length, at triple that cost, with a long gone line-up that no one knows, and all for a smaller audience that might actually buy it anyway.

What business sense does this make?

You really want to do this?  Get a current album out.  Re-establish yourself.

Don't simply sit around "taking a serious look at what you are doing in the regard" of simply *talking* about a remix album of your LAST album, that didn't catch on.

Re-establish the brand.  Then we can talk about luxury projects like box sets of rarities and outtakes.

But right now, they hang up on you.  No matter how much I, personally, might be interested in such a thing.

And there you have it.

Probably because I am not as big an AC/DC fan as you make out. It is you who are obsessed with this, me being a DC fan, thing, remember?

You are over analysing (as usual) a rather flippant remark by me. Jarmo pointed out that the place has been peaceful in my absence. I merely replied that it has been 'completely dead' and that Jarmo's own post count declines when there is ever an absence of 'whiners'. Yes, I do take post traffic as some sort of indication of, a successful forum, but your straw man remarks about Jarmo's ownership are unnecessary and rather, stating the obvious.

I am trying to envision the type of forum desired if posters like me disappeared. From my perspective it could only exist of,

Poster A: ''jee, golly gosh. Axl sure is swell''
B: ''sure is. Isn't Chinese Democracy a good album?''
A: ''Sure is. Cannot wait for another residency''
B: ''whoop e doo da''

If you remove every possible source of, negativity, that is all you are left with really.

I'm not over analysing, anything (though I know how much you hate it when people actually look at your words substantively because of how poorly they often hold up under scrutiny).  YOU engaged ME when I commented (in less than 50 words)  that I find such remarks, fippant or not, funny.  To me, they are.  The fact YOU find the fact I see them as funny as being worthy of extended argument, or objection, speaks more of you, and to your posts and posting, than anything I've done in this conversation. Talk about overanalyzing an off handed comment...here's my original post that lit this off:


Man, I must have really hit a nerve! Talk about someone who takes themselves too seriously....gods forbid someone find humor at your expense.

Your "flippant remark" gets pointed out, a lot, by various posters in the same types of conversations...and most of those posters feel the same way about the site.  And I chuckle every time.  Because those comments are disingenious and intellectually bent at their core. The fact you took issue with my giggles, again, speaks more about YOU than it does about me.

You commented on post traffic/activity levels.  As a justification for why you should continue to post (or as a counterpoint to jarmo saying it was nice while you were "away", which amounts to the same thing).  Wiggle away to try to get off the hook, but you did. If you want to be intellectually bent (more than you have been in this tangent), and deny that. or try to tell everyone you meant something differrent...go for it.  Nobody will buy what you're selling, though. It's obvious and clear what you meant. "If I'm not here, nobody posts, so you/this place is better off with me posting".

That's intellecutally bent, and I find it quite funny.

To sum up:

1) Whether you use traffic as a metric for success is irrelevant.  You're not paying to keep the lights on.

2) You have said, time and again, that you disagree with pretty much every administrative "thing" the site represents/does. So you generally don't like the way the place is run.

3) Since you have zero vested interest in the construct continuing, it's intellectually bent to cite the place being "dead" as justification as to why you should post.  Because whether there is traffic or not has ZERO effect on you. Nothing. Because of both 1 and 2, above. In fact, one would think, if the lights go off due to low traffic (it won't) that would, in fact, prove you point.

It's a very simple logical path to walk down.  It's not a straw man (I'm not sure you really know what that term means, in terms of the logical fallacy terminology). I'm not setting up an argument, ascribing it to you, so I can knock it down.  I'm observing performed behavior and chuckling at the humor it generates.

It's incredibly funny to watch you, and others, do the same thing over and over. It's amusing. I giggle.

Why you think you need to question WHY I find it funny, and get a long, drawn out, explanation as to why I giggle, I have no idea.  But, there you have it.  The joke has now been explained to death, to the guy who "doesn't get it".


See, that's a different argument, entirely.  And not the conversation we're having.  Since I made no comment to indicate that a) I think you should leave or b) that I think the contrarian POV should be eliminated at htgth, I'd point out that YOU just set up the straw man. Interesting, no? In any event, you should make THAT point to "whoever" you're having THAT conversation with. Maybe it will make sense in that context.

It certainly would have been less funny, and made more sense, as a response to jarmos comments.

#1: It would be from Guns N' Roses
#2: It would feature unreleased material sung by Axl Rose from a period of "mystery".



I did forget them. I already asked whether or not you are aware of these boxsets being marketed toward the masses or not.
That's why they often release a regular or double cd of the "best" bits for the average Joe to buy download. Or at least if there's a new version of the original album involved, they release that as a stand alone.




You also got those bootlegs for free. Doesn't really say anything other than you like free stuff!

Would you buy it?




Haha. It's only supposed to be a lighthearted discussion about a hypothetical boxset of outtakes from a period when we didn't have a lot of news to talk about.
There was no argument when the hypothetical material should be released. Nothing. So all your other arguments are void. Sorry.

Once again, you proved that your free thinking capabilities are kinda limited.





You're the one going on about how great they are! Neil Young and them. :D

So you pretty much admitted that you're not really a fan of anything. Yet you come to this band's fan site...




/jarmo

Come on guys...

We all don't agree about certain stuff.. but its the same thing in every thread... Mortis you don't like GNR at all anymore... at least DX does

Lets keep the bashing to the people who deserve it and the topic at hand... like evil unloyal Deli owners.

I am a 'fan' of a lot of music, from Shostakovich to Motown, from Sinatra to Metallica.

As I said, I like a lot of music too but I don't go on those artists fan sites only to complain about what they're not doing.




/jarmo

I don't think the "mystery" angle has near the hook you seem to think it does.

The general public considers what Axl has done the past 20 years a gross misadventure.  And even among GNR fans, there is hardly consensus that these supposed outtakes are in demand.  We still have people to this day that think Buckethead was a joke and still can't accept he was in the band.

So you are down to the segment of the segment of the fanbase at this point.  I understand and agree with your point that box sets are geared towards the diehards.  But plainly put, there aren't near enough of them left to justify the expense of producing and marketing this sort of thing.  At least, not right now.



It doesn't say that at all.  I was never given the option to buy officially released bootlegs.

I have with other bands.  Other bands have made such things available officially, and I bought a good number of them.  This band has never given me that option.  There are not official bootlegs out there that I am not buying, but rather stealing instead.  Doesn't exist.

The only thing this band has given me on that front was a comically doctored live compilation album.  And I bought it the day it came out.  I don't listen to it, because its an incredibly flawed product and a very poor representation of the band as a live act in their prime.  But I have it, bought officially.

The whole about the bootlegs I have was not to establish "I like free stuff".  It was to establish that I am a very poor example of the average consumer when it comes to this band.  So if you want to talk about a null and void argument, here it is.  I am in the .0001% when it comes to this band.  The fact I would buy it is not really relevant when it comes to whether this would be a viable commercial release.  Its like arguing a sequel to a movie should be greenlit, because you know a diehard fan that would go see it 6 times.  That diehard fan is not representative of the general populance, or even the fandom of that particular movie franchise.

But you seek out and pretty much only talk to such people.  You couldn't ignore him on a bet.

Do you honestly think the board overall is better served by you seeking him out in every thread and picking an inevitable fight with him?  Like JAEBALL just said, its always the same song and dance. 

Why do you invite it, if it allegedly bothers you so much?

We have had this argument about a million times now. I repeat, you see 'whining' whereas I see objective reactions to the current situation with the band as it is now.

You seem to have a habit of replying to innocuous flippant asides with over wrought self indulgent analyse. All this and I still have not recovered from 'riotous' gate!

Really? You're not curious to hear what the band was up to during those years?




Once again, how do I explain this.... This kind of release would not be aimed at the general public. How many times does this need to be repeated?
Do you think the general public ran out and bought the Adore boxset by the Smashing Pumpkins?
Let go of this thought that since the general public isn't interested, it's a bad idea. Enough already. Some free thinking!  ;)




Exactly. Not every fan is gonna shell out $50-100 for a boxset.
It's common sense!

It's not for everybody.







You: I have X number of bootlegs.

You failed to mention you didn't pay for them. Suddenly your investment in the band seems less "grand".

That's the point. Nothing said about whether or not you had the option of buying it.
Are you telling me if you had the change you would've bought all those shows?




You still don't seem to understand how some things can be aimed at a certain group of a bigger group.

A movie? That's your analogy?
Ever heard of indie movies? The masses rarely go see those, yet they are made.

There's also plenty of records released that sell maybe a few hundred copies. Why do they make those?
Why do bands tour when they can't sell out stadiums? What's the point?  ;)


Assuming you have a bunch of outtakes, the recordings have been paid for already. It's not exactly like a movie that would have to shoot first!
A better analogy would have been if the second movie was shot at the time of the first, but then not released for some reason. The only thing left was to cut it and release it.



I didn't invite him. He invited himself. :D
You're saying we'd be better off kicking him out?




/jarmo

RIGHT, it's me.  If you think anyone but you is buying that...I got a bridge to sell you. It's a convenient way to try to wiggle out when you're made to look "bad", though. I'll give you that. And it's just as intellectually bent as the words that got you into this.

Maybe it's time for you to wonder why your words get analyzed...and be a little more introspective. Cause trust me...every objective eye here knows it's you, not me. In fact..let me couch that: I think you KNOW why they get analyzed...and you get your jollies off the conflict.  Honestly, my first impression of you was "board warrior troll". I've dropped the board warrior conception...but I'm still not convinced you're not here just trolling for fun.  And none of this conversation has helped that perception.

And you'll never recover. Because each time someone (and it hasn't just been me) actually subjects your words to any sort of scrutiny, they fall apart. And then you try the same tired tactics to get out from under what you said. You backpedal. You twist on the hook.  It's obvious, it shows a complete lack of conviction or willingness to stand behind what you say, and it essentially means you're not to be taken seriously.

Here's a hint: If you don't like being taken to task for saying stupid, funny shit...stop saying stupid, (unintenionally) funny, shit.

But, in any event, Mo Vaughn.  Continue to provide the giggles....and I'll continue to point out where they occur. If you don't like it, tough shit.

I am one person.  A lifelong fan that would always be interested in anything and everything.  I am far more exception than rule.  

A label needs more than guys like me that would buy this totally unprompted and without one cent spent on marketing to justify its cost to produce.

Its just a numbers thing.  Aren't enough guys like me willing to shell out big bucks for a 3 or 4 CD set of outtakes and demos.

This all started because you took great offense at my saying I would not want to have to sell the label on this sort of project right now.  Those numbers are why I say that.



Looks we'll have to do it a few more times, because you still can't accept the reality.

There aren't enough dedicated diehard GNR fans to justify this.  Axl has not only alienated the casual guy, he's alienated a good bit of his established fanbase.

We see people here everyday (and far more at other boards) who felt CD was decent, not great.  They still bought it, but were lukewarm.

What in the hell would make me think they are clamoring to fork over big cash for outtakes that couldn't make the 14 track album they bought and didn't love?



No, its not.

But you might have a better chance at success if, god willing, a new album actually came out that people dug.  Perhaps at that point, they are more receptive to wanting more of that.

As of right now, we just don't have enough people that are looking to hear the tracks that couldn't beat out 'Rhiad & The Bedouins' for a slot on the album that has come out that they did buy.

Perhaps that changes if the next album were to contain something that actually made an impact with the people.  At that point, you might be inclined to hear more.  You aren't now.



Hell yeah.  If there was an official CD from the Paris show, I'd have bought it.  There never was.  So I have a bootleg copy.

I have several bootlegs that I like, but are of dubious quality.  I would absolutely LOVE a chance to buy a soundboard version of them put out by the band.

You can't fault a guy for not paying for something he never had the option to.  The only thing sillier than that notion, is this one that a guy that scoured the internet for YEARS to track every single concert they could get (some of total dogshit quality) is not a dedicated fan.  Its the definition of a dedicated fan.  I never searched far and wide for a summer of 1991 concert YEARS later because I didn't buy the official releases.  Of course I did.  I have not beaten the band out of a dime.  And no one spends al that time and effort that is not crazy into the band in question.



An exact argument I have made for YEARS now about Axl's magical mystery vault of songs already paid for and recorded.

Let's pray for a miracle there is even a single album release before we start talking about pie in the sky box sets of outtakes.



Life is a constant cost benefit analysis.  So when you see one of his posts that just steams your bean, you could :

#1.  Let it pass without comment.  It sinks down the page.

#2.  Not be able to quote it fast enough and pick it apart line by line, thus giving it far more attention than it ever could have gotten on its own.  And extending its shelf life from one post to a bang you head against the wall argument that goes on for 3 pages.

You pick option #2, every time.  Your spin is that you just can't let it pass.  I would suggest you absolutely could, but you rather relish these bickering sessions.  Nothing else makes sense.

Obviously, you are going to do what you are going to do.  But its quite literally impossible to garner any sympathy for you, because you enable it.  Its like the kid that has already scalded himself 6 times and still grabs that pot off the stove a 7th time.

Oh, you got burned?  Well, you don't say.

Could you break down the costs involved for me then?

I'm curious.


Once again, something like this isn't aimed at everybody who bought Chinese Democracy. It's not supposed to go platinum.





A limited edition boxset sold at gunsnroses.com for let's say $75. Really? How many would you need to sell to make a profit?

Once again, I'm curious about your numbers. You must have some ind of information on this since everything seems to be a bad idea. Remix album, boxset.... Things I assumed fans would like to have the opportunity to purchase. But not you, Mr. Record Company Executive.


Tone down your positivity!  :hihi:







No. Would you buy 400 bootlegs! That's your number. That's the question. Not whether or not you'd buy one.
Would you own 400 live albums if you had to pay for each one. That's the magical question.





Do I look for your sympathy? No.
:)



/jarmo

If your answer was just going to be that unless I work at a record company I'm not allowed to have an opinion, why ask the question in the first place?

Presumably, that cuts both ways, yes?  If I thought this was the greatest idea in the history of ideas, would my opinion then be OK to express?  It's not like I'd suddenly have the industry experience, or my lack of such is no longer a roadbock, simply because I came down on the other side.

Right?



No, probably not.

Would I have over 200?  Yeah, I probably would.  I just double checked my iTunes, and I have 97 GNR concerts on there, right now. 

But there are any number of interesting setlists where no bootleg exits, so I'd want those.  And there are a number of ones in iffy quality that I have on the hard drive, but not the iPod. 

So if I could get a decent copy of the show from their website?  I'd be 'bout it, 'bout it.

Why don't you just present the numbers?
What kind of calculations did you do to come to the conclusion?


I'm thinking that in this day an age, you could make it a viable product. What am I basing that on?
Well, the fact that there's a fan base out there. The fact that it's been paid and recorded. And the fact that bands with smaller fan bases have managed to make similar releases work.
Am i assuming this would sell a million copies? No.

Now, it's your turn. :)



Regarding your live albums. Isn't that yet another product with limited interest? Yet, some bands release them....
Joe Average isn't gonna buy some show because they played that song.... But the hardcore fan might.




/jarmo

Agreed.

You would only incur costs if you were going to touch them up.  Like whatever the fuck they did to ruin 'Live Era'.  Not money well spent.

But if you are already recording the show at the board to release as is, you are all set.  If you do them digitally through the website, you don't even have to worry about packaging.

Your market would be limited, sure.  Completists, people at that particular show, and the guy who wants the show with the good version of <insert song here>.

I would channel some of this newfound energy you have into simply getting the next album out.

You are making all the same arguments many of us have made for years now, and all would apply to a regular album as well as some expansive box set.

For your lips to Axl's ears, I say.

I'm gonna jump in here, a bit:

I think you could make a business case for releasing a limited edition (far less than 100k of them, maybe less than 50k) boxed set with "outtakes", alternate cuts, remixes, etc.  Do a small run to keep production costs low.  Limited direct marketing (maybe just to the GnR fan club/mailing list), so that would be low cost.  The press would pick it up, which would do some of your marketing for you. I mean, look at what they did with the "unauthorized" live show release CD that we talked about recently...most of the major outlets covered that it was coming, and that's from a rinky dink no name studio of old shows, that everyone has heard, from an unauthorized source.  Given the rarities, limited edition nature, etc...you could charge a premium price for it ($100, say). Hell, thrown in something hand signed by the band, you might get almost double that.

You're not going to MAKE a mint, but you're not going to really spend a whole lot, either. But I think you could go in and make a decent business case for it.

The issue is this: This only works if you've either given up on using any of that material on a future album OR if you know exactly what's going on that future release, so you can keep it out of the box set.  The one objection I can see the label having is in reducing the demand/market for the future "big" release.  I think we saw some of that with the leaks, and I think the label knows that any "official" release of new tracks is going to mean those tracks are "in the wild".  If 3 or 4 of them were then slated for use on the new "big" release...well, I don't think the label would be on board with that.

At the end of the day, I think it's doable.  Like any niche release, there are hurdles you'd have to overcome, and issues you'd have to address.  I don't think they're insurmountable, though.

And...finally...I'd buy it.

There's still work involved. It's not just record it and it's done.
There's some work involved. You'd probably have to mix it. Then actually make it available to be sold.


Regarding the boxset, care to present some numbers or whatever it is you base your opinion on?

Ever heard of something that's limited edition? Obviously, if they press say 2000 copies of something, it's only gonna sell 2000 copies. Does it mean that since it's only selling that many, it must be a loss?
Wait, maybe the budget was made based on selling 1000 copies, and everything past that you'd be making a profit.... Could it be?




/jarmo

I agree.

Axl is claiming they already have "what I'd call the second half of 'Chinese' recorded."  That would have to come out before any box set of leftovers.

No.



Sure, why not?

Yeah, it's not "free", for sure.  Mix, master, production, marketing, and distribution.  But you can limit some of those.  You can limit the marketing by reducing scope.  You can reduce production by keeping the run low (but not so low as to create a "per unit" premium), and by potentially centralizing distribution (like, for example, only selling through GnR.com or contracting with a specific chain/retailer/distribution portal).


I'm not sure this is directed at me.  But we've seen Pink Floyd, Aerosmith, The Rolling Stones, the Beatles, and others do similar things...either during "down times" (one of the Aerosmith box sets was during a period of 4-ish years where there was no new material), or after they were really an active, productive, band.

There are smaller, active, bands that have done it, too, and made it work.  Typically they include past material, alternates, out takes, etc...stuff that has been released, but in some alternate form, and maybe a couple/few of previously unreleased bonus tracks.  This would be SLIGHTLY different, but similar enough I think.

There's def a way to budget a smaller run to be profitable.

I'm not sure it has to be "out"..but they have to know what's going to be on it (generally). More specifically, they have to know what they're NOT going to include in the box set, because it has the potential to be on the next "new" album.

True.  But, with his track record, you really think they plan that far down the line?  I rather doubt it.

I imagine they'd take a "walk before you can run" type of stance and tell him to work on getting them even one album to release.  Only been 7 years.

It's certainly possible.

Ultimately, I think "thinking that far down the line" would sort of be the mandate from the label if they were listening to this pitch.

They'd make Axl decide: Either this is the burn through of all the old material (and then there are separate conversations about ROI given the cost of the material, etc) OR it's a rarities release, and he has to comb through and anything he releases in the box set is "verboten" for the next album (or any future albums). What happens in the box set stays in the box set.

And I can very clearly see a "well, if this material isn't "good enough" for the new album, and would otherwise just sit in the vault, maybe we can monetize it" POV from the label.  In exactly this kind of format.  BIG bang for your buck. You're getting a premium price for what is essentially vault fodder. THATS the way you pitch it to them. From my limited experience, I think they'd eat that shit up.

This is why I could never buy into that narrative that the label would rather never release anything out of...I don't know, spite? 

What sense does that make?  Don't you want to recoup whatever you can from the boatload of cash you sunk into this whole thing?

Just some quick numbers:

You do 20 to 30 tracks (basically, 2 discs) of rarities, remixes, and "outtakes".  Nice, foil embossed, numbered "interesting" packaging. Hard bound Booklet with some "history" of that period of time (1996 - 2008), nice linear notes, and lyrics to all the songs Include some sort of swag item (a GnR themed flash drive with all the tracks in digital format?), and a hand signed, slightly larger than post card sized, "something" (artwork, band picture, etc).

I think you could get close to $150 for that. That sound fair?

Figure a production run of 25k units (it would probably be more like 50k units, but...)

That's roughly 3.75 million in revenue.

None of those physical items have super high production costs. I've sourced 100 pg hardbound books and flash drives, every year. You're talking maybe $8 a unit, combined. Packaging would depend on what they do. The signed "something" would cost time for the artists, but the physical item would cost a couple pennies. I think you negotiate "signing time" into the split, rather than up front costs.  

I can easily see head room, at that number, to fit the rest of the costs, based on my admittedly limited knowledge.

And I can see the label thinking getting an extra million-ish, in profit, would be worthwhile if the material being used didn't have another way to be monetized.

Not "spite", necessarily.  It LOOKS like spite, but it's actually very calculated ROI calculations that don't take into account any shred of humanity.

And it happens. Labels have no soul. They are about money. 100%, completely, about money. Not helping the artist, not the artists best interests, not the artists CREATIVE interests.  About monetizing every single thing they have the right to monetize in the biggest way.

Which largely means telling the artist to go fuck off when they don't think the "thing" the artist is bringing to the label is the best, biggest, and most profitable use of that contracted item.

And label EXECUTIVES are, largely, power mad dickheads....but that's another conversation.

I'm not sure if that fetches $150.

But all those extras would require some pretty heavy lifting on the cooperation front from Axl.

No it wasn't. It wasn't aimed at you, I know you're able to think freely outside of the "this is what makes sense to me so it must be that way" box.


All I've tried is to have a lighthearted conversation about a hypothetical boxset. One thing only. Like one tiny isolated piece of the puzzle. But this guy can't deal with it, he goes on and on about the rest of the puzzle, which isn't the thing I was trying to have a discussion about in the first place.

He can't focus on it. He can't just disregard all his negativity even for a few minutes and have a different look at it. Nope. Not possible.


You on the other hand, thanks for saying what I've been trying to get across for a while.  : ok:




/jarmo

$150 would be pretty close to the going rate for other bands similar releases. Pink floyds dark side of the moon immersive anniversary edition was around $140, for example. Granted, it had six discs...but a lot of that is padded with previously released dvds/live shows (though not in dvd or blu ray). And no "new" material (as in, previously unheard songs) at all. There were some remixes and a remaster of the original disc, which were previously unreleased. And the tchotchkes included are lame...scarf, marbles, collector cards (aka pink floyd baseball cards) and coasters? Certailnly no hand signed autographs.

You could add a couple discs to the gnr box set by including appetite for democracy bluray and cd combo. You could also release one of the live shows that gnr online streamed, on a disc, throw in a copy of cd, with "the right cover and booklet". None of that really incurs  much additional cost.

It requires approval, participation in mixing, mastering, and selection.  And 25k signatures.

The first four are no different than any release.

The last is onerous, but...if hulk hogan can manage roughly 500k, across all platforms, for the limited edition of wwe2k15, i trust axl could manage 25k.

Self indulgent nonsense as usual.

Thanks for further making my point.

Just let me know when you're ready to pay for that bridge....

Until then...feel free to have the last word.  You seem to need it oh so badly.

This is straight from the Internet message board handbook for Dummies!

Don't you know that's how you win debates? You ignore the points made by the other guy and turn to insults. :D

 :rofl:



/jarmo

Yeah, I'm aware.  It's one of the reasons my troll radar goes off, and why I dropped "the board warrior" notion.

Yeah, life's hard.

I'd be more interested in a throw in like that, a live show, then I would liner notes.

Liner notes and packaging never meant much to me anyway, but certainly not since the iPod came on the scene.

Yeah, packaging, etc, not my thing either. I mean..don't get me wrong..it's NICE. But it's not what drives me to buy.

But to a LOT of collectors, that IS their thing.  You want to, at the lowest total cost, appeal to as many of that "type" of buyer as you can.

So you get your extra material..they get their packaging, the other guy gets the tchotchkes.  Whatever parts you from the ducats.

Oh yeah, you'd have to go all out on packaging if you are charging that kind of coin.

I never realized how important packaging and artwork was to people until the whole dust-up with the booklet for CD.  Hearing people say they would buy it all over again, with no new or different material, just for a different cover?

That's dedication.

Not really. What's hard is having a discussion with a brick wall. Or you.
Similar experiences.




You can copy the music and put in on your device. But looking at a picture on a screen isn't the same as flipping through a proper booklet/book with the artwork. Or even opening up a box, gatefold vinyl or whatever.
You can't recreate that part. Or copy it for everybody to download for free.





/jarmo

I have not even got the effort. It is not worth my time. It is rather like when the two of you went completely overboard over the word, 'riotous'. It is not worth my time replying to that sort of anal behaviour. I may as well beat my head against a wall.

Who's forcing you to?  Is he armed?

I laid out in detail why I think what I think about the viability of a box set of CD outtakes.  You didn't like it.  Oh well.

Your details are self centered and you're unable to take in information and think of something else. It's all "but I don't want it, so it can't be a good idea".

Every step of the way, somebody needs to hold your hand and explain everything. No free thinking on your part.


A box set is a bad idea because it won't sell? The counter argument to that is, you budget it to sell less, make the calculations and then think again. You're not interested in taking the discussion this far, you've already moved on to something else because "I wouldn't buy it and neither would Joe Average".

You can't make public service announcements such as "that's not how business works" and then offer so little understanding of how things might work. It makes no sense.

You come across as somebody who wants to think they know stuff, but often you've managed to prove how little you actually know. I know it's maybe not how you might see yourself. But that's life. No shame in admitting you don't know shit about shit.

I don't know a lot, if anything, about the music business. But I sure as hell wouldn't say "no" to everything considering how many less popular acts have released expensive boxsets and obviously they didn't just calculate to make a loss on those...




/jarmo

Yup, I get it.  It's the benefits of "physical" vs digital. The feel of the page, smell of the paper/vinyl.

For some folks (maybe a lot of them), those things, mentioned, would be a driving force. I can see why it would be compelling. You have an object sitting on your shelf..to display, to look over any time the mood strikes (without tech), to caress....MY PRECIOUS..Oh, wait, sorry...where was I again? Oh, yeah!

For me, it would be the material/content (some of which IS better, I guess, in physical, (linear notes, pictures, etc) format), some of it is the obsessive completionist in me, and some of it is the "that's just fucking cool", chase the shinies nature of my being.

And that's OK.  Something for everyone!

You sure do spend a lot of time psycho analyzing a guy that you could allegedly take or leave.

Thanks, though.  I'll be sure to take it all under advisement.  Bet that.

Took me about 15 seconds. You're not the first of this type I've encountered since I started to use the Internet back in the 1990s....  : ok:



That's the one thing you can't just copy and distribute digitally.
The audio and video. Sure. The rest, not so easy.

That's where the value is these days... Just look at all those super ultra deluxe box sets. They often come with the same music as the cheaper edition(s), but there's just more stuff. Posters, postcards, books, pins, shirts, stickers...




/jarmo
 

You might also have to do something like Bob Dylan does with his re-issues.

He offers the full monty package, which is what you are talking about.  All sorts of bells and whistles.

But, there is also an option to just buy the CD(s) themselves.  That's likely the direction I would go if they ever put something like this out.

Did they also live rent free in your head?  Does seem sort of crowded in here, now that I think about it.

See, that's the kicker.  I think, if you do that, you instantly canablize the market for the product.  You just demonstrated why that might be.

You'll get folks who will buy the boxed set BECAUSE it's the only way to get at that material, legally.

I think selling the individual disks at $10, or whatever, means you sell less $150 box sets. I don't know how MANY less, but...that's 15:1 ratio in revenue.  For every 1 box set you lose, you have to sell 15 of those individual discs to make up for the lost revenue.

That material has to be exclusive to THAT set to really monetize it properly, IMHO.  That's what justfies the premium price.

(And yes, I know we're ignoring the elephant wearing the eyepatch and saying "ARGGGGHHHH" in the corner of the room).

Hahahaha

I agree with you.

Dad is a huge Dylan and will often splurge for whatever he put out.  Yet not always.

Not every re-issue is 'Blood On The Tracks'.  Sometimes, its 'Self Portrait'.

Yet another case of you thinking you know stuff, and taking yourself way too seriously..... :)



/jarmo

wheres part 2?

Here it is.
http://uproxx.com/music/2015/04/guns-and-roses-documentary-part-2/

thanks great video  : ok:

Did you attend any of the Casino shows?

Thought they were quit excellent myself.  Getting better and better as they progressed.

I dont know whats the problem if the reunion will be for money or not.... thats not our problem or issue. The music will born naturally.

If Ax or anyone do the reunion for music or whatever... will be money around!!! Like when GNR was poor and signed 4 first time....

And fuck the money. GnR can do the reunion by itself. And if the money comes.. good too.

I really think when Ax do eye contact with Slash in a hotel or walking in some backstage... thats it. Is impossible dont talk.

Sorry 4 the native english.

Loved Part 2 with Tom Zutaut.... has Part 3 made air yet?

Not yet, I understand it will involve some women from the day, will post when it comes out :)

Part 3 is up: http://uproxx.com/music/2015/05/guns-n-roses-part-3/

Nice.

There is another video on youtube that goes into more detail about Adriana (she is interviewed there too) where she talks about her relationship with Steven and then goes on to do "Rocket Queen".

Was coming to post that  :peace:

No new info on this video, wasn't expecting any though.