Here Today... Gone To Hell!

Primus, Tom Waits, Guns N Roses, Praxis - Brain's worked with all of them (he was a member of GNR for 6 years). He talks about the aforementioned as well as what he's been up to recently - Composing for film. He also tells some great Buckethead stories. Great hang. Recorded in Venice Beach, California February 2015

Listen: http://idhitthatpodcast.podomatic.com/entry/2015-03-03T09_15_15-08_00 (http://idhitthatpodcast.podomatic.com/entry/2015-03-03T09_15_15-08_00)

Source: http://idhitthatpodcast.podomatic.com/ (http://idhitthatpodcast.podomatic.com/)

---

He talks about coming to the realization that he doesn't wanna keep touring forever and started learning using computers.



From 38:30 on he talks about Buckethead ("he was talking with a puppet" [the host and Brain laugh]), introducing him to people, how he got involved with GN'R.

Talking about Buckethead in GN'R:
"What wore out the managers. There's millions of Dollars on the line, and they're [managers] talking to a fucking puppet. So finally, he just went MIA, and the only way to get a hold of him was through me. And it was kinda fun. I mean, at that point I was like "Oh, ok, to get a hold of the main guy keeping it together, Slash's replacement, was to go through me. I kinda felt like a big cock, you know... Whatever."

Later on "He kinda got off on that, that it wore everybody out and that I was together enough to speak for him."

He says Buckehead probably did this to protect himself.

"You couldn't get a hold of him for a month. We're going tour coming, is he coming? I don't know if he's gonna show up."

Says Buckethead would go MIA, and nobody knew where he was.

---

"He signed his contract with Axl at Disneyland."

"Even at rehearsal, he had the mask on. Nobody ever saw him."

And Axl loved it?
"Yeah. I mean. How could you not love it? That was... It was awesome. It was the greatest. Every time was like what mask is he gonna walk in this time?"

"That was his thing"


After the 1:00:00 mark Brain says Josh recommended Buckethead to GN'R. Ozzy Osbourne had already been interested in hiring Buckethead, but it didn't happen for some reason.
At that point Primus was ending, so Brain was available when Josh left.

Brain was not sure if he was into rock music at that point.

Axl invited Brain to come and meet everybody.
He's flown down First Class and driven to the studio in a nice car, he meets Axl there ("he was super cool"). Three months later, Tommy calls him and invites him down to L.A. again to jam.

They jam and Brain says he sucked because he didn't know any of the songs. Then he realizes he'll look like a douche for not learning them and he asked Tommy for a day to learn them.
He comes back and gets a new drum set up. Stayed up all night to learn the songs.

"Then I felt like this is the real deal"

He says he listened to Appetite "this is a well crafted album"

He talks about rehearsing for Rock In Rio and how they did a whole set with pyro and confetti so Axl could see the show.

He says Axl was always good to him.

Brain said he left when his kid was born, he didn't wanna tour anymore and wanted to focus on composing.

He says he hasn't talked to Buckethead for two years.


Talking about recording a song.

"Axl knows his shit".

Brain replays the part of a song, Axl listens to the recording of the song and notices that Brain had missed a kick drum compared to an earlier take.

"I was like Wow! He caught that!"




/jarmo

Interesting insight , also I think it gives great credence to the fact that Axl indeed was always completely involved with the band and that not all is as it seems when people blame Axl for such and such, great find, gave me a clearer picture of a period of time that was more not readily known. Thanks!

Buckethead was clearly not the the right fit for GNR. Managers talking with a puppet????? WTF.

I must say it was quite hilarious envisioning the absurdity of the situation that Brain described. "Theres millions of dollars on the line, and here you have managers trying to do a negotiation with a puppet".

Brain's account of what happened kind of backs up the reasoning Axl had for canceling Rock in Rio in 2004. Buckethead being MIA for months at the time, with no means to contact him. Too bad really, I liked Bucket's guitar playing in Guns.

100 percent.. Very insightful. You can't help but chuckle about this while interview ...

Bucket head sounds like a special guy ...

Between his puppets and axl showing up for rehearsals at 4 am ... They were destined for greatness!

Remember this?


http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/news/shownews.php?newsid=997




/jarmo

This sure was a,weird time for guns

I wish things would of worked out better with bucket and guns   I really think if he had stuck around we may of seen the album come out a little sooner.  And well would of had some great tours.  If not a great rio concert

Yeah, I think Axl needed to draw a line between the business side and the creative side of Buckethead. One of those just didn't work out with Guns.

It's quite sad actually, because I think Bucket brought out some good creative stuff in Axl. It's probably also why Axl said in recent times that he would still love to do something with Bucket, he gets a kick out of him. I just don't think it would ever work as a full-time thing, which the previous stint kinda proved.

Not exactly the same, but I think the relationship could be compared to Axl/Izzy.

Buckethead was a great guitarist for GN'R. I mean he and Robin had created most of the lead guitar parts on CD. So sad that his membership only lasted for five years.

I think I am listening to a different interview from the one transcribed up there.

How so?

The transcript omits most of the juicy soap opera details. Quoting from memory (so do not accuse me if I have not got the statements word for word), ''Freese quits because he is bored sitting around for 3 years''. Brain himself quits because he is sick of the concert delays, ''Axl having a fuckin back massage while a riot happens''. The crazy story of how Chinese was being recorded? Feeding tapes between them and pizza delivery boy (why wasn't Axl in the studio with them)? The total chaos of Rio 3 rehearsals.

It is a wonderful interview, it really is, but the picture that emerges is complete chaos and confusion.

Yeah, well.. I don't think it was Jarmo's intention to bring the emotion of the interview with his bullet points. I think he summed up the interview pretty well.

But yeah, the interview is of course better if you listen to it and get all the details.

Thanks for posting this.  I will actually listen to this interview now, where as before I wouldn't have

The whole story of the making of the album CD is something that really intreages me.  I would love for a book to come out about the whole process

It's really nothing new in the interview about the recording of Chinese except the detail about working on a song for two weeks and then sending a tape to Axl.

But I'm with you, I hope we'll get a lot more details about that process at some point. A book would've been great. Brain actually said that he thinks every member who's been in Guns probably has enough stories to write a book.

Great point, Brain's latest interview confirms every word (to those that doubt every word )

But that is about as good a revelation about that album, as any we get.

Hardly a "revelation". :hihi:

It's a pretty commonly known fact that GNR sends songs, and pieces of songs back and forth to work on, they did it for the Illusions as well.

Yeah, the point was that TheBaconman wasn't gonna listen to the interview based on the transcript Jarmo gave. That revelation was included in his transcript, and was basically the only new thing about the recording of Chinese.

There is a bit about them recording about The Village in Sonica Monica also. It is a snippet anyhow.

Yes, this isn't new. Brain have talked extensively about this in other interviews.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkGsRv1JB1o

I disagree. The latter was just Axl and Slash sending demos and talking over the phone. This was the entire band (minus Axl) laying down final studio tracks with Axl, thirty minutes driving distance away. I also get the impression that much of the album was recorded this way. I find it quite revealing.

Fair enough but I am scraping the barrel. Give me a break here lol - we are starved!

I will listen to the interview when I get time.    Right now I am booked for the night watchng a stupid blue ray.    The new hunger games    One hour in and half a 40oz of vodka gone.    Brutal movie.   Look for my review in the movie section

I have seen a few Brain interviews on YouTube.  He has talked about his experience in GNR many times.   The one thing I really like about him is.  He says it all with a smile.  The same with Josh as he does his interviews.    Don't ever forget most of the writters/band members of the album CD were just kids     Very youbg guys being employed buy one of the biggest rock stars of all time.   They were all a total cast of characters.    Not ever story will point Axl in the best light.    Who cares.  It's all very cool

I'm sure you have proof positive that nobody in the band except Slash and Axl ever sent copies back and forth, or played and contributed on a song that was sent to someone, right?

In this era of improved programs, digital files and DAWs it is quite possible that bands don't operate in a way you think they should.

"The majority of things are done on the phone, until we actually get in the studio. A lot of things over the phone and sending tapes back and forth. And we've done this for years." (Axl, Rockline, 01/03/94)

 "In the mixing stages, Bob Clearmountain was fired for a covert plan to use sampled drums and Sex Pistols producer Bill Price was brought in, with Slash mailing daily samples out to Axl's house in Malibu for his approval."
http://www.musicradar.com/us/news/guitars/the-story-of-guns-n-roses-use-your-illusion-i-ii-496629


On New music: "All the guys are writing, and we recorded a lot of songs over the years. We'll figure out what we feel best about. Chinese was done in piecemeal with one person here and one there at different times. Appetite for Destruction was the only thing written with lyrics and melody fitting the guitar parts at the same time. After that, I got a barrage of guitar songs that I was supposed to put words to, and I don't know if that was the best thing for Guns. I do want to lean more toward lyrics and melody."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/music/2012/10/30/axl-rose-on-gnr-music-more/1669329/

Revealing? That Axl wasn't always present breathing down the neck of the band when they were recording?
And you think he was in the studio watching the the old band when they recorded Use Your Illusion for example?
Ok. Whatever.....


I think the revealing part was that Brain has nothing bad to say about Axl at all!
No matter how you spin it. 





/jarmo

I think this neatly demonstrates our different approaches when listening to interviews such as this. I listened to that and couldn't believe the craziness of the band and the stories Brain was telling. I laughed along at the wacky nature of it all (which is very much Brain and the interviewers mindset also). And yes, this band does seem to be ran in a chaotic manner. I believe most sane people would have listened to it in that frame of mind.

You listened to that and immediately sensed an opportunity to propagandize W. Axl Rose.
 

Unlike you, I wasn't looking for something in it.
You were looking for something and surprise surprise, found it.



So you're saying?

This kind of shit isn't surprising coming from you.



/jarmo

Brain emphasized several times that nothing was a slate against Axl and GNR, he loved his time with them. He had nothing against Axl either, he observed the craziness of being in the band and he accepted it for what it is. Jarmo didn't need to twist anything to "propagandize" Axl. Sure being in Guns seems to be a wild ride, but I didn't get the impression that Brain regretted any of it.

I can understand his reasoning for leaving when his girl was born, as he had already decided 10 years earlier that the touring life was not something he would like to do for the rest of his life.

Yes, he mentions stating to get into computers and composing before Rock In Rio in 2001.

But of course it's easier to say "he stopped touring because of Axl" because that's what makes sense in one's "sane" mind.  ::)




/jarmo

You lot could spin a skyscraper.

Sure Brain described the experience as somewhat crazy and maybe surreal, but I got the feeling he had a good time. Did you get any other impression?

Do you get the feeling that Brain was regretful of the whole experience with the band, that this was something he rather would be without?

If Brain had anything against Axl or the band, why would he still work for them, making the remix album and even join them on stage a few years ago? Is that a person who rather wouldn't have anything to do with the band or is it simply a man who does what he was set out to do, be a composer and staying off the road?

It's not a spin on my part, I acknowledge that what he described was a surreal and crazy situation.

Get back to me regarding that veiled insult.
Thanks.




He gets the impression he wants to get, and yet he labels himself sane....

Isn't it telling that instead of answering, he replied with the above nonsense? In addition to the nonsense posted earlier.





/jarmo

I actually totally agree with this, 100%. It was jarmo who introduced the 'saying bad things about Axl' straw man. Brain seems to have walked away from Guns with something like a 90% positive experience overall. He does not seem to have regretted it. But it is chaos which he describes, completely unprofessional, crazy. And he did cite Axl's concert delays as a reason for leaving. That was my point. But then the usual straw mans appeared in order to make you arguing for something you did not even believe in yourself which is the usual HTGTH tactic.

Maybe one of the reasons. Not the sole reason as he already envisioned himself sitting behind a desk not having to travel the world every year.

If touring was his passion in life, I'm sure he would have liked to continued with Guns.



I think the environment is also to blame, they were allowed to do pretty much whatever they wanted. A result of being such a big band in that period of time I guess. It seemed like money was never an issue.

That's in your mind. He didn't want to keep touring forever. He wanted to get into composing, and then he had a kid.

He hasn't really toured since. Doesn't that tell you something?



By the way, once again asking you to clarify your veiled insult. Since you're free to spin things people say, I can do the same.
Are you sure you want to try to insult members of this board as not being sane because they're not looking for things in an interview like you are?




/jarmo

I really still have to listen to this interview, so I don't want to comment on too much before that

But

Why is there anything to blame?

If it was a crazy atmosphere and people where total characters    What's wrong with any of that?  

Even if some of the concert delays where one of the reasons brain left....    Why is that a bad thing?  I don't see these things as negatives.   It's actually pretty cool.

Some like to use it as a reason so they can continue the "It's Axl's fault" routine. It's been that way for decades now.

Don't expect them to change or even acknowledge the fact that Brain actually complimented Axl!



/jarmo

Lot of bigger bands with more money than Axl do not have that madness. Can you imagine Jagger not showing up for rehearsals before a huge gig, only to turn up in the early morning insisting on a very weary Richards/Watts/Wood to go through everything again before him, sitting there nonchalantly on a chair? Can you imagine Chinese Democracy levels of studio wastage happening with a Springsteen album?

Yeah, "blame" was maybe the wrong word, it sounded like they had a pretty good time. I only used the word in context with mortis' comment.

I semi, agree. I have never been obsessed with this 'negative' 'positive' thing anyway. This is this board. This is jarmo's mantra. Real life does not work like that, between two clearly demarcated binary opposites.

The reason I say 'semi' when I agreed there with you is there is, much of this that is detrimental to the continuation of a line-up or the release of music. Everyone (except for Jarmo) wonders why 'Axl does not release music?'' There is your answer, in that interview. It is impossible to release music with that sort of working regime. A lot of people question why band members leave? Brain specifically states Freese left because he was 'tired of sitting around for three years doing nothing'. Brain says, he left because of the concert delays.

It is all there in the interview.

Yeah, you don't see the bass player in the Stones getting a solo spot in their shows.





Really? That's the main reason?
He says he got worn out of the late shows. Doesn't say he left mainly because of that.

He actually says the whole experience was cool and he just got older and didn't wanna do it anymore.

Direct quote: "I left because, you know, I had a kid and I just thought wanted really get this composing thing going. I wanted to give it a shot."

"How many more shows do I need to play? I toured the world three or four times...."


There you go.




/jarmo

At this point all the money came from the record company, I guess they regarded Axl/GNR as pretty big since they just poured money into the project.

I think it's wrong to compare this version of GNR with The Rolling Stones and Springsteen. Axl was doing something that really hadn't been done before, rebuilding a band that already had achieved enormous success. It was a brand new band really, he brought together people from all angles and was trying to make this work. It wasn't a group of people who knew each other inside out and could just write an album from the get go. They were allowed to use the time they needed to get in sync, that's my estimation of it anyway.

Sure there seems to be a lot of down-time, and the reason for it is not something we know 100%. I don't think Axl just decided to kick back and rest for 2 years just for the hell of it. We do know he was involved with a lot of legal business at the time.

I am pretty sure jagger is a bit of a character in his own right....

I don't see anything wrong with Axl showing up late or not at all to the studio.   Everything you mentioned above.  If it did happen is not bad.  

I think it's actually pretty funny and cool.  

Thanks for transcribing the parts that you did. When I get some time, I'll check out the links.

My take away from all this is that (even though the puppet thing was funny) Buckethead comes off as irresponsible.
Probably not a popular sentiment, but if the band that employed you is trying to tour and they can't find you . . .

Brain came off as pretty reasonable. I caught a few GnR shows with him and was impressed, although that wasn't really surprising. While I've never been a big fan of Primus, that band had some super talented musicians in it.

Again, I never said it was 'wrong or 'bad' per se. I said it goes a long way in explaining a lot about why there have been multiple band members and an inability to release new material. If you think band members leaving because of Axl's inactivity is 'cool', then you are perfectly entitled to that view of course. It is all in the interview.



Probably because the Stones officially do not possess a bass player!!

Maybe Buckethead might not have been ready to deal with the business side of being in a big band like GN'R, and it was his way of distancing himself from that.

But yeah, it made things more complicated for all involved it seems.





Exactly.

Different band, different way of doing things.



In case you missed this edit to my earlier post:

Direct quote: "I left because, you know, I had a kid and I just thought wanted really get this composing thing going. I wanted to give it a shot."

"How many more shows do I need to play? I toured the world three or four times...."



/jarmo

Could very well be. We don't know much of Bucket's personality as we've never seen his face or even had a 'real' interview with the guy. I can imagine it being a huge shift for a person who's used to depend only on himself, and having a totally different level of pressure. Some can deal with it just fine and it can be harder for others.

Paul Tobias wanted out of the touring, that's a guy who probably works better in a behind the scenes setting. Nothing wrong with that, people are different.

The whole process sounds incredibly dysfunctional and disjointed.

How "interesting" and "fascinating" one finds it tends to be in the eye of the beholder.

They seem to have recorded a lot of stuff. Even though a lot of it isn't what ended up as parts of any song, I still would be interested to hear some of the ideas that was thrown around. To me it seems like they were left with a lot of creative freedom, and there was a lot of exploring. Even if the whole thing seems to be rather 'unorganized' just from the few stories we've got, I think they enjoyed doing what they did at the time.

As time passed and the frustration came of not seeing the fruits of their labor, that's also understandable.

Personally I hope some of them kept some sort of journal or video taped the process, so it could be used as a documentation either in book or video format for the fans. I think that would have been real cool to read or watch.

Brain Is Cool, Thanks

 :smoking:

I have never been a Brain fan, but great interview. I always felt he was there for the check and didn't care about the band. Interesting stuff on Bucket, I thought he took the mask off around the band, apparently not. Would get annoying after a while, but kinda funny too.

There was a chicken coop and hardcore porn...and an entirely different band (APC) was created.  Arguably they had too much creative freedom and time to explore.

APC is pretty great!  ;)

Agree.  I saw them with NIN in the early 2000?s, good show. 

I find this entire time period equal parts fascinating/depressing.  So much music was (allegedly) created during a period of time that was (arguably) very unstructured and chaotic.  These interviews shed light on the mystery surrounding the making of CD.  It's depressing (not in a "I'm on the ledge" type depressing) but depressing in the sense that this chaotic environment, which maybe helped them create the music, was unsustainable, and that the inactivity (or artistic integrity) led to its breakup.  It's fascinating that anything ultimately got released (plus the Bucket and APC stories).   

I have not listened to Brain?s interview yet, but from the comments it sounds like he left for a myriad of reasons, one being no interest in touring/traveling away from family, another being he was tired of the concert delays.  Is that a fair assessment?  If so, then it?s just a matter of what you give more weight to as the primary motivation for leaving.  The battle lines here have clearly been drawn.

Yeah, apparently this can be interpreted in multiple ways:

"I left because, you know, I had a kid and I just thought wanted really get this composing thing going. I wanted to give it a shot."

"How many more shows do I need to play? I toured the world three or four times...."

Even before his first big gig with GN'R (Rock In Rio 2001), he was getting into computers and music.

The usual suspects, spin all this into meaning Brain left mainly because he didn't feel like playing shows later in the evening.





/jarmo

Did you listen to the whole interview?  I have not, so my question still remains:  is it a fair assessment to say he left for multiple reasons, one being no interest in touring/traveling away from family, another being he was tired of the concert delays?

I don't see any spin there. 

Why would you take up the cause of the idiots and defend their attempt to yet again demonize some aspect of GNR without listening to the entire audio? Are you waiting for someone to transcribe the entire thing?

It is clear after hearing the entire audio that Brain was primarily tired of touring, and he describes feeling like the beat up road cases used to transport equipment.

This was a very interesting interview, despite the usual bunch attempting to make it negative and somehow dark.

I enjoyed the part about Bucket making everyone talk to Herbie, truly an eccentric creative genius.  :hihi:

I listened to it. I posted a recap and several direct quotes from it.

There were multiple reasons, the spin some put on it is to make the late shows be a bigger factor than it seems from the interview itself!



/jarmo

Really?  Equal parts?  That's interesting.  I'd have pegged you differently, frankly.

I would think that there would be an almost exact inverse proportion of people finding this all "fascinating" and "interesting" to the number of people that considered this a huge clusterfuck that had little hope of success and no real sustainable way to run a professional operation.  I really didn't figure there was much crossover there.  I would think you are in one camp or the other.

I would think it only retains the "fascinating" and "interesting" labels if the payoff was far more than we got.  One album and another one that maybe, someday, perhaps, if things break right, but don't stay up nights waiting for it...comes out? 

Right now, is all that really all that compelling for 14 songs in 14 years?

He goes on about his frustration with the gig delays at length and even makes a joke at Axl's expense (about Axl having a back massage while a crowd went riotous). I have not got time to transcribe these sections but it is all there in the interview. Listen to it. Basically, Jarmo has omitted all of the juicy anecdotes and humour in his transcription and produced a tame boring summary consisting of platitudes. In reality, the interview is 'gossipy'. Brain and the interviewer are basically laughing at the craziness and bullshit, that is new gnr. It is full of talking points and revelations. As I said, listen to it.

C'mon, man.  You know the deal.

Yeah, that may be a bit confusing.  Let me try and clarify.

Fascinating in the sense that a car crash is fascinating.  It?s interesting in that it?s completely unbelievable, but then you hear multiple stories about chicken coops and puppets, and you think, ?holy shit, that was really going on.?  Management negotiated with a puppet!  Axl took Bucket to Disneyland, etc.  I find that stuff fascinating.  To me, it makes anyone that tries to explain this time period away as no big deal, just another band reforming and working on music, not really credible.  No other band had this sort of shit going on.

The depressing part speaks for itself really. 

Ah.  Yes, that makes more sense.

I could buy into how "fascinating" and "interesting" it was if the payoff was far greater.  Not that I consider Baz much of an authority on anything, but just for example's sake, let's suppose his quote about Axl wanting to release a trilogy was real world.  I think that would then cast this all in a VERY different light.

If they were able to say, look, this shit took like 7 years to put together.  Sometimes it was really cool, other times it was frustrating, and a good bit of the time it was ridiculous.  But in the end, you got 3 albums out of it.  You can see the fruits of our labor.  We are proud of what we did and stand behind it.

That sort of thing.

Let's hope this still happens. Richard and Dj still says that's the amount of material that they got from those sessions.

Some of the band members aren't in the band anymore, but I think it would be good for them to get to see/hear people's reactions to their material.

Yeah, I know some people don't believe that the material exists, but Tommy was pretty specific with the number of songs remaining from the Chinese recording period, 22.

I'd say more people believe it exists but won't come out for whatever reason than there are people that believe it flat out does not exist.

Like a few of them have said, a few different times...we didn't spend all that time in the studio doing nothing.  I absolutely believe that to be the case.

If I had to put a figure on it, I would say there is at least another album of finished material, maybe and album and a half.  Not sure I buy there are 2 more full albums.

Speaking as a betting man, I'd say getting 1 more is a longshot, but possible.  2 more is Loch Ness Monster territory.  Forget about that.

Some of the members weren't in the band anymore when Chinese Democracy was released in November 2008.

If there are indeed 22 songs ready, it all depends on how you want to divide that between albums.

Axl said 1 album is done, so that could mean a number of things. If he would like to have 14-16 songs on that album, there's pretty much half an album left. If he has say 11 songs ready to go on 1 album and the other 11 still need some tweaking, that's 1 album done and 1 almost done.

Bottom line, I just hope we'll get to hear the rest of the songs they recorded during that period. If it's on stand-alone albums or sprinkled in with songs written by the current line-up is not important.





There's been recent sightings of Nessie...  : ok:

Riotous? Is that from your memory again? We all know how well you remember things and then post them as facts.



Of course you don't. I gave you direct quotes and you still argue about them meaning something else.
Spin Master Mortis in the house!



Who here is shocked by the "revelations" that they spent a certain amount of time in the studio recording? Really, this is news to you?
I'm sorry that you didn't know this. If I was aware that this is such a revelation, maybe I would've focused on repeating this instead of the actual new bits!


Edited to add:
Here's a  Tommy interview about the recording: http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/articles/showarticle.php?articleid=174




So, does this mean you didn't like the band back in 2001 either then? :D
Just checking.




/jarmo

I am pretty happy with how the album CD turned out.  It gave me a couple of great songs that I would included in a guns n roses all time great list

So you are now not happy with the album?  Or just not satisfied with how the album didnt set all time record sales in the United states?  Or what about the years of touring after the album came out?  Where u not a fan of satisfied with them? 

I can be picky and critical of things I want to see in guns.  I may want to change the set lists or wish for new material. But what I got were some great live concerts to see live in support of this album.  And then I also got a pretty good album with a couple of great songs on it

I am very satisfied with the end product which came out of these years of recordong.   But just like being with a hot 19 year old blonde. Even when I am satisfied   I still want more

The forming of APC during these years is quite the story.  Guns guitar tech formed APC and there debute album may be more highly regarded and may have sold more than CD did

The whole song writting process has really never been done before.  By putting a bunch of highly regarded musicians in a studio and saying.  Ok write a album.....    Then ok I like what u did on that song, but I would like this solo in there and this drum line instead.   From this other song you guys wrote.   Crazy stuff

Then you have Buckethead.  Who is just a nut and I love reading anything that has to do with the guy

The story of the making of CD needs to be put into like a coffee table book.  Mb Kramer could write it

Are you really going to force me to transcribe it Jarmo? The results are not going to be pretty? It might even contain - SHOCK HORROR - a joke at Axl's expense!!


Haven't spun a thing.

FACT. Brain talks about his frustrations at Axl's delays at concert.

Case closed.


I found it more interesting, the method of how they recorded. The story of, 30 minute tapes being sent off at intervals was new to me. Is there anyone in here who knew this story previously? No. Didn't think so. The story of the Rio 3 rehearsal was also new to me although I knew Axl hadn't rehearsed for that particular show. Anyone know this story before, the story of Axl insisting the band play in the morning with full pyrotechnics? No, didn't think so. Case closed.

Yes!

Go ahead. I know what he said. I wanna see your quote about the riotous crowd!

He said: "The thing that wore me out was.. At first I thought it was funny, I thought it was cool, to be like at a gig that was supposed to start at ten, or maybe like even earlier, 8:30-9, and now it's 12:30 and the crowd's going crazy. And Axl's still getting his massage. And you know, the tension and whatever".

Go ahead, transcribe the riotous part!



 




Case closed?

Actual quote from Brain without the added MortisMurphy interpretation spin on it: "I left because, you know, I had a kid and I just thought wanted really get this composing thing going. I wanted to give it a shot."



Why do you answer your own questions Mr "It was on sale for $1.99 the week after its release"?





And this part was in the recap I posted.

Any sane person who listened wouldn't put the spin on the interview you do because many of the things weren't news to them.

By the way, it's not news to most GN'R fans that Axl prefers to do stuff at nigh or that he has trouble being on time. It's not shocking at all!





/jarmo

Yeah, would be cool.

I'm just not sure its realistic from a time standpoint.  These guys aren't getting any younger.  And will still don't know when the next one will be, let alone the one after that.

I think anything past one more album is gravy.

No, no, not that.

I just don't know I see the supposed epicness of sessions that have only produced so little.  Its not that I have a problem with material, there's just not much of it.

I was saying the 7 year odyssey in the studio is a better story if it produced 2, or even 3 albums worth of stuff to hear.  Then, you could sell how it may have taken 7 years, but look at the output.

But, 14 songs in 14 years?  I don't know.  I think its tough to find their studio adventures as charming, I suppose.

But perhaps I'd feel differently after hearing the next album.  I'm just not there yet.

You are a stickler for semantics, Jarmo. When I used the word 'riotous' I thought I had made it clear that I was merely paraphrasing, not transcribing. Here is my original, quoted in full,


Just where are the parenthesis which would mislead someone into thinking I am offering transcription?  I even say, ''I have not got time to transcribe these sections''. It is obvious that I am quoting from memory, writing in first person. Please point out then, where I have intentionally misled anyone by passing off paraphrased passages as transcriptions? But regardless, you have answered this for me by quoting this,


It is not a great etymological leap from, 'a crowd going crazy', 'tension', to 'riotous'. Note well the following first definition,


Thanks for providing the Axl insult by the way, 'Axl's still getting his massage'. You have saved me the hard work.

Yeah, funny how you choose a word like that! Wonder why!
Why not use a word like anxious? Nah, riotous makes more sense.



You should be the last person coming here to discuss anything and using your memory as reference. Next time, check the facts first.
Like any sane person would.




Oh please. Wanna compete regarding suitable words?

Look up anxious.





Why is that an insult?

Oh wait, this is news to you as well? That sometimes that is part of the preparation for a gig?

This from an article published in 1992:

Gasp! No way!
I suggest you stop now with whatever you think is shocking and news to you. 




/jarmo

It makes me depressed and cringe as to what happened to my favorite band. At least now DJ brings that old school  vibe of GNR.

Anxious?

It could work but I used riotous because 'anxious' seems a bit timid. I am 'anxious' when my cat does not return home. It seems too timid a term to describe the actions of a potentially unpredictable, no-doubt semi-inebriated, surge of humanity that is a rock n' roll audience. It was a mere stylistic choice Jarmo.

It is a joke about Axl. 'Insult' is maybe a little strong but there is a definite joke at his expense present. He could have substituted 'doing yoga' for 'getting his massage'. He is tapping into a commonly held belief on Axl there.

I'm sorry the official definition doesn't suit you:



Sorry that your vocabulary can't seem to find a word not relating to a riot.




Substituting it for something like that would've made it a lie. So, nice try.
Yes, if you believe preparing for a gig is ridiculous, it's a joke.

  ::)




/jarmo

I see what you are getting at

For me personally I would rather have two all time great songs, than 100 songs that I would just skip over.  I am a fan of quality over quantity   

Now where mb you are looking at the situation as something that could of gone so much better.  You are looking at the situation and saying if things where done a little different the results would of been so much better

I am looking at the situation and am very very happy with the results   If Axl hadn't done what he did and used the process to get to the place that he got us all.  I would of never of gotten the chance to hear a good album that contains a couple of all time great songs.   I never would of got to see the band perform in concerts to support the album

Sure I want more music.  More interviews.  More concerts.  I admit I am a selfish greedy fan.  So what haha

I think if the process of writing the album CD was any different.  We wouldn't of gotten any of the great things I mentioned above

Jesus, Jarmo, it was a stylistic choice. I have already explained that I find 'anxious' too timid a term. 'Riotous', to me, seems more appropriate for a Guns N' Roses crowd 'going crazy', at 12:30 in the morning waiting for Axl to arrive. If it was an opera crowd and the overture was delayed by thirty minutes, I might be tempted by the word 'anxious'. Neither term are incorrect. I chose one, you prefer the other.

I cannot believe you are taking that joke as a mere factional rendering of the fact. You really cannot see the irreverent tone in that interview, can you, not just in that passage but whenever Axl and GN'R are discussed?

I agree with this.

Most artists are always excited about their latest release. Then a few years later, you go back to that album and you find yourself only listening to a handful of tracks.

Hasn't happened with Chinese Democracy.



Of course it is.




Well, the fact is, it's a fact! At least he didn't take your suggestion about saying Axl was doing yoga, or watching TV or something ridiculous like that.

Did you listen to the part about Buckethead's puppet? That wasn't a joke, but they were laughing until they probably had tears in their eyes. It's still a fact...





/jarmo

I thought this interview was very interesting.

But Jarmo.....I don't get why you're going out of your way to point out that Brain didn't badmouth Axl here. Hell, even Slash and Duff don't badmouth him in interviews these days. Plus it's not like anyone here seemed to be holding on to the belief that Brain left over some issue with Axl.

Au Contraire, feast your eyes on this spin from Moaning Mortis- :crying:

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Re: Brain interview (Feb 2015) on the I'd Hit That podcast
? Reply #60 on: Today at 04:18:44 PM ?
Reply with quote
He goes on about his frustration with the gig delays at length and even makes a joke at Axl's expense (about Axl having a back massage while a crowd went riotous). I have not got time to transcribe these sections but it is all there in the interview. Listen to it. Basically, Jarmo has omitted all of the juicy anecdotes and humour in his transcription and produced a tame boring summary consisting of platitudes. In reality, the interview is 'gossipy'. Brain and the interviewer are basically laughing at the craziness and bullshit, that is new gnr. It is full of talking points and revelations. As I said, listen to it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Again, I rest my case.

How ridiculous, you have no case and you aren't Perry Mason, you are simply an anonymous "fan" on an internet forum that is devoted to a band that you try to discredit, disparage, fantasize about, and paint in the worst possible colors on a repetitive and continual basis  because you apparently have personal issues.

Go whine somewhere else, some of us know better than to listen to your nonsense and drivel. :rant:

Its fascinating how someone can find so much time in his life with arguing with every board member about everything, when he doesnt like their opinions.

Seriously, dude...

Love it, how they crack up about Bucket talking via a puppet

The name is Herbie and not just "puppet".

Because some listen for things in interviews that they want to hear and then post about how this person said this and that. When in reality it's just spun that way.



/jarmo

Really?  No idea?

Please stop your pointless replies now.




/jarmo

I thought I might be able to shed some light.  Clear up the confusion.

I'm a helper by nature.

Then do it, add it to your post.

Smart ass.

Unless your next reply is on topic, it will be moderated accordingly. :)



/jarmo

I personally find it hilarious that Axl is getting a massage while the crowd is waiting... ha I really do...

Apparently Brain thought so too. Theres no spin there... it just looks bad.

But jarmo doesn't care for any of you to point it out... and if you come here just to point it out and get a rise out of him... then you are going to see his push back... there has to be a better way to express any gripes.

Other than that tho.. Everything Brain said was pretty much complimentary minus the silliness of the Buckethead stuff. (he was a disaster.. I don't care how great anybody think's he is as a player)

I don't get why someone can't see that there are some negative aspects Brain is pointing out and how obviously ridiculous he finds them (and which they are), like the rehearsals for Rio, or the waiting.

It shouldnt be too big of a deal to point out negative stuff about guns. Its not the end of the world.

Amazing talent.  But really, who's putting up with all that nonsense?

I suppose you could perhaps fault Axl for trying to cater to his bizarre whims, before then deciding it was out of control.

But I can't really fault Axl, or anyone, for not wanting to put up with that whole schtick.

I mean, that rehearsal thing is of course fucking ridiculous, but on the other hand its absolutely funny and just GNR. I dont think anyone in the world would do sth like that, and thats kinda cool

Well... my take was Axl was putting up with it.. and wanted to continue on with him.. he just couldn't get him back in the room.

They obviously were a toxic combination.

I can just picture Axl, sitting together with Bucket on the Haunted Mansion ride and having him sign the contract.  :rofl:

In a lot of ways, they were a great pair.  Two guys who would have a hell of a time finding other musicians to put up with their respective bullshit would have something of a kinship.

But the vastly different approaches each man had towards ambition and productivity did probably doom this from the start.

Thing I can't figure is why Bucket felt the need to drop out entirely.  Couldn't he have just done his stuff for GNR, and then told Axl to just call him whenever he finally got his shit together?  He could have very easily still done all his solo stuff while Axl dilly dallied, no?

But then you always have management people telling you what to do and what not to do.

You really need to stop pretending you speak behalf of me. Somebody asked me a question and I answered. There's no need for your off topic bullshit posts.

Take your comedy act somewhere else.





It's in the eye of the beholder.

Some of the stuff he said were turned into "he was making fun of Axl", and yet I didn't hear that. He was telling what he saw. Like the massage thing for example. It's safe to assume that could be part of Axl's pre show ritual. It wasn't meant to be funny as in how ridiculous it is that Axl's getting a massage.

I guess for some of you this would be ridiculous. I don't know, maybe it doesn't fit the image you have of him. That he actually prepares for the show.




If you put it in its proper context, it's not that ridiculous.

Many times before tours, there will be production rehearsals with the full production in place. Not just the band in a small room learning the songs, but an actual show on the same kind of stage they'll use on tour.

Considering this was before Rock In Rio, which is a festival, you can't do this at the venue itself. Otherwise you could do this the day before the first show on the tour at the venue of the first show.

And knowing what we know about Axl's preferred operating hours, it's not that surprising that it didn't happen during the day. :)




/jarmo

Going by what Brain said, Bucket was flat out scared by the business side of Guns. Lawyers going after him and all.. By his description, seems like he was paranoid at times.

Well, he is saying it in regard to the shows were they were late, like it would be 2hrs after they were supposed to be on stage, Brain in his room and Axl getting a massage (while people were going crazy).
You could see it as something that Brain couldnt comprehend, that Axl is getting a massage while people are going crazy bc of waiting, or that it was just description of what happened

To me, it sounded like he found it kind of silly

99.7% of the population finds that stuff silly.  The only ones that don't are Axl, and some of his fans that adopt all his opinions and thoughts as their own.

You will also get the faux exasperated "but that's how its always been!" routine.  As if a pattern of bad behavior has any bearing on the behavior's legitimacy.

They did the same thing before the 2009 tour started if I remember correctly. Didn't Bumble tweet about rehearsing on a "big-ass stage" or something?

A show with that kind of production needs that I think. With all the pyro going on at different times during the songs, that's something they need to have knowledge about.



I guess most of you have watched This Is It with Michael Jackson. That was an even bigger production and it seemed like they had that stage set-up for weeks in rehearsal.

Has anyone counted the amount "you know" and "like"? :D

Compared to the stories about Axl watching TV instead of being at a show, this isn't close to that.
And some people actually believed that.

Never mind the usual suspects and their usual veiled insults because their free thinking open mind can't comprehend simple things.





Put this in perspective again. Do you guys remember that show? Rock In Rio 2001?
It was kinda a big deal for Axl and the band.

Yet it's ridiculous that he wanted to see what the show would look like from the audience's point of view?
It was the return of GN'R and Axl.

Video taping it and watching it on a TV isn't the same thing. Neither is watching computer animations...




/jarmo

You sort of have to with a big stage set up.  Get your bearings.

The Rolling Stones play entire practice shows.  I don't mean playing the opening licks of something and then stopping to talk about how it goes.  I mean playing the entire show, for real, start finish.

I have a bootleg of them running through the entire show before their 1989 stadium tour.  Its like the best soundcheck ever.  It plays like an actual 30 song concert.

Brain said so himself. In the beginning he thought that's was kind of cool. As he got older, he would have preferred to start at 9 and be done by midnight. Seemed to me that this tied in with him wanting off the road and not wanting to be exhausted at the end of the show because the time was 2 or 3 am. It wasn't something he couldn't comprehend, but more like a life style he grew out of.

I think that's a good way to put it.

After awhile, its just not as cute anymore.

You either accept it, or you don't.

I assume most people who start working for GN'R would know the deal.



/jarmo

I didn't say it was ridiculous. I said it's normal. (Don't know if that was aimed at me...  ;))

We know Axl rarely sings in rehearsal anyways, so him watching the rehearsal is not a shocker. The only way I can understand why people are pointing fingers, is that Axl's operating on Axl-time, and therefore had the band play the entire set a 5 am. He could have showed up at 12 when they did the first rehearsal that night, would probably have been less brutal on the crew and the band.

I didn't catch if this was their last rehearsal before leaving for Rio. If it was, I can sort of understand that Axl wanted to have they play the set once, and then have a second, final walk-through before packing their gear.

How could Brain know? He never was really into GNR, as he said.

He said in the interview that he knew about the band's attitude and public image, but wasn't into that music scene at the time. GN'R being late has always been public knowledge, hasn't it?

To a point, yes.

But like every coach that thinks he's finally going to be the one to reach the pain in the ass player despite everyone else's failure at same, eventually, they reach the same point of frustration as all their predecessors.

Everyone leaves this band for the same reasons.  And they all knew the deal going in.  But they all think, this time, it will be different once they get in the mix.  They will change the game where others have failed.

Is there a better example of this in action than Ron?

I don't think that's true.

Izzy left because it all got too big.
Duff because of the business side I guess.
Slash because of a lot of things. Mainly musical differences and maybe personal reasons.
Paul because he wasn't comfortable on the stage.
Bucket.. business is my guess.
Robin quit almost a year after his last tour. My guess is the CD delay.
Ron... well if late-times is his excuse, I must say he picked a strange time to quit as Guns have been improving those more and more for each year.

Wrong. Robin left because he rejoined NIN .

Do you think he would've done that if CD came earlier?

for example Bumblefoot has releasead and promoted two solo albums in 2008 . So I can't see why not.

So... you're saying if CD would've been released earlier he wouldn't have quit GNR..

No. I basicly said that the release of CD didn't blocked any side project because there was not a lot of promotion and no touring (until the very end of 2009) anyway.

But if CD was released earlier, the tour would surely have started a lot sooner than the end of 2009. I think he would have stayed on board for the release and subsequent tour.

We can only assume what would have been and what not.

I guess you can say that he ultimately had to quit GN'R because he had joined (and committed to) NIN, and he had joined NIN as a result of the delay.

I agree with Spirit.  It was the absurd delay that led to Robin cashing out and going back to NIN.

Axl gave Robin far more artistic and creative freedom than Trent ever did.  On paper, GNR was the better deal.

In reality, he started to wonder if this thing was ever going to happen and took the surer gig, even if it wasn't as attractive artistically.

Of course GN'R was the better deal for him. Because in NIN he was "only" a part of the live-band.

An in-depth interview about GNR with Robin would have been interesting. CD was his first full-length album with him as the main lead guitar player. You have to wonder if he has regrets for pulling out at the time that he did. In hindsight, pretty much the worst possible time as the album came out merely 7 months after the fact.

He did get to record their next album after he joined.

Nah, just the ones who are looking for things that are ridiculous about their favorite band.





As far as I remember, Brain said that he thinks it was the day before the gear was gonna be shipped.


Did anybody pick up on the fact that Brain thought it was a great time when he was in GN'R?



/jarmo

I go back and forth on this point.

For starters, yes, I agree he left at the worst possible time.  Stays all that time then quits in the homestretch.  Like running 25 and a half miles of a marathon then stopping.

But, we are also only able to say that in hindsight.  At the time Robin left, what assurance did he have that the album would be out so soon afterwards?  So, in that sense, I'm sure he kicked himself when he first heard of the release date.

Using that same concept of hindsight, however, he is also able to look how things have been handled since it did come out.  Do you think he has any regrets?  I really don't.  Here's an album that was his first real chance to shine creatively, and the big chief in charge of it all doesn't seem to pay it any nevermind.  I think he'd have stronger regrets if the release and the time immediately after was handled at all competently, which is most certainly was not.

I have thought about it, and I think the release process would have been handled differently if Buckethead, Brain and Robin Finck had been in the band at the time. Think about it, three key players (four actually if we count Paul Tobias) from that album aren't around for the promotion round. Finck was one of the main contributors, so even with only him present from the above mentioned group I think the promotion could have been more prominent.

I think that could be one of the reasons that Axl just wanted to release the album and take the time to focus on touring with the current line-up. The vocalist and lead guitar player are normally the most known and sought-after interview objects when it comes to promoting an album. Axl was probably not comfortable doing interviews together with Bumble and Dj for this particular album. One of them recorded some riffs and some solos, while the other one isn't on the album. If things had worked out, Axl had probably envisioned doing radio and tv interviews together with Robin and Herbie.

So, I don't think the happenings in the aftermath of the record release necessarily would have been the same if Robin had stayed.

Great points all around.  Agree with all of that.

I think, overall, Axl might seem more into this if he still had the band he started all of this with back in 2000.

The release may have gone a lot differently if Azoff hadn't tried to Sabotage it in order to stage a reunion. People seem to underrate and overlook his toxic involvememt.

No idea why the usual idiots try to spin it that personal preparation for a gig and dress rehearsals for gigs are somehow unheard of and sinister.

Flipside, without Azoff, we might still be waiting for it.

Azoff was obviously something of a misadventure, but do we even have the 14 songs we got without him?  Axl might well still be taking a serious look at what he's doing in that regard without him.

Good thoughts here... I agree with all of this. But if he releases another album of all Bucket and Robin songs.. he is still going to have that dilemma in the future in terms of promoting it.

"So... Dj or player X who just joined.. tell us how you created that Riff? "

Yep.  So I really don't expect anything different next time around.

The release sans Azoff's presence may also have gone exceedingly well, with a correct booklet and multiple covers.
If Azoff hadn't gone behind the scenes and enabled the leaks in cahoots with Iovine , gotten rid of Robin, and tried other insiduous and underhanded ways to orchestrate a reunion by sabotaging the band and their projects, things may have turned out much differently.

See how easy it is to spin things using pure speculation and a good measure of bullshit? You aren't special, funny, nor talented. You simply have internet access and an agenda here.

I really don't expect anything different from you in attitude when the next release happens.

You are perpetually stuck in negative land, and are the mayor of Butthurt whinytown.

Irving Azoff secured the Best Buy deal right?

I can see that. It could maybe be worked around by mixing both old and new songs on the album, or release two albums either at the same time or with little time in-between. Or, release the remaining Chinese sessions as part of a Chinese Democracy special edition re-release.

If it's gonna be THE next album, stand-alone, with all Bucket and Robin material, I can see the same challenges arise when it comes to promotion. To be clear, as a hardcore fan I'm not that bothered by it. I will be super happy if the next album is from the Chinese era, but I can see some challenges from Axl's perspective.

Yep.

So for all his nefarious schemes, dastardly plans, and hidden agendas, he also secured the release of an album that looked like it was going to take an straight up Act Of Congress to get done.

That's worth something.

Yeah I am in the same boat. Don;t care who wrote or recorded the songs on the next album... not anymore.

As far as the challenges to promotion... I don't really care if Axl promotes the next record anymore either. So if that is a challenge... so be it!

Agreed, but do you really think that breaks his heart?

To me... yes... who knows when it would come out if not for a deal like that.

But... He screwed with Axl and had ulterior motives... so he's a bad guy.... I get it.

Not that much really. More so with Chinese in 2008 I think, it was his comeback album, created by a group of people that he felt could make his vision come to life.

Another aspect is Richard.. He was partly brought in because he could write, and going by what people have said in past interviews we'll hear a lot more of Richard on the next album.

But Fortus, Thal and Ferrer are not credited as songwriters on a single song. For me this is another sign that CD (and the other 22 unreleased songs Tommy was talking about) has already been finished in 1999-2000.

Not 1999-2000. Both Brain and Bucket have writing credits. There might have been an album ready, but not necessarily with the same track list of the finished product from 2008.

But I was talking about the next album, not CD. Richard is said to have more writing credits on the next one.

Also, 'songwriting' credit is very narrow.  That is lyrics/melody only.  Richard, DJ and the rest may very well compose most of the rhythm parts, solos, etc. on the next album but still may not get any songwriting credits. 

Yes, every person is responsible for his own instrument, so basically you come up with your own parts within the framework of the writer's melody.

So I have a general question, that this thread has brought up for me

In regards to, staying late at venues?.

So I have see/heard guns used to come on stage a little late and venues would be worried about paying workers overtime costs and union fines etc...   Which I understand

However, once the show is done guns and Axl are known for staying at these venues till well into the early hours of the morning.  An example of this would in Miaimi when Eddie trunk got that Axl interview at 5 am in the concert venue

So the questions are

Why is everyone so upset about these fines and overtime costs, when the band will be there till 7 am regardless

And who with the venue is still there with the band?  Is there some old janitor just hanging out with a big set of keys waiting for the boys to leave so he can lock the door?

Does that honestly affect your enjoyment of a song ? Very strange criteria for enjoying music. :nervous:

Very good points, I don't have some predetermined "bedtime" and haven't for over 20 years.

I see it as simply another reason for some idiots to complain. ;)

Its not just the cost.  Or even the inconvenience.

Its the obvious question why they have to make these special accomodations for one band when every other band on their level plays those same buildings every month of every year without such issues.

Put yourself in their spot.   Not a rabid Guns N' Roses fan, but just a rational human being and everyday worker.  Do they give a flying fuck how "rock n' roll" this all supposedly is?  Nope.  They just want to go home.

I am also not a fan of people that go to a guns show and complain about the start time.

Then you here reasons for complaining like. They have to work in the morning, what about the children!, what about public transportation shutting down

Who cares really.  Some people need to get out of there own little bubble.   If you don't know that guns may come on stage a little late, you are not a fan and go crawl back under that rock you have been living under.   These are the same,people that are probably asking me to sit down cause they don't want to stand at a rock show.  Guess what I have kids. I work, you go to concert.  You figure this stuff out.   It's not hard

Rant over

Haha

Agreed.

It doesn't affect whether I enjoy the song.  But it certainly affects how seriously I can take the guys onstage as a legit band.

CD showed me that the guys who put that album together were a pretty decent band.  But the guys who wound up playing the songs onstage?  I have no idea what they are capable of as a band.

and we don't seem terribly interested in finding out either.  Which is either quizzical or alarming, depending on your interpretation of the concept of a band.

Haha, I would definitely enjoy meeting up with you at a show.

Some are merely complaining to complain, it is like they have some sick fascination with the negative aspects of everything, or maybe they are simply drags in real life.

Misery may love company but it won't be mine  :beer:

***DISCLAIMER : I did not introduce this topic.  I am simply commenting on it as a topic that came up.***

I think you are oversimplifying it more than a wee bit.  

Telling someone to sit down in front of you is the same as telling someone that to see a concert, they might have to take off work the next day?  They are the same to you?

***DISCLAIMER I WILL TYPE IN ASTERISKS TO DRAW ATTENTION TO MYSELF AND MY WHINING***

 :crying:

So just for the sake of discussion I am going to throw this out there

So Axl may have 22 songs already in the bag.   Very close to being called finished if not already

This November he releases a 14 track album.  Now this album is just full of older songs, as mentioned above.  The 22

Now about 3/4 of the current band will not be credited as being on the album

I personally wouldn't care, as it doesn't take away my enjoyment at all from listening to the music

But do you think it takes away the enjoyment of this current band. Once again having to play someone else's songs?

Do you think Frank has been given a chance to even hear any of these 22 songs let alone learn how to play them?  

I would say they would all have to learn how to play theses songs that someone else wrote

Again, just tossing that out there.  For all I know the boys have all reworked the material to but the current bands spin on it

Oh yeah.  Like I really need to take special steps to get you to pay attention to me, sweetheart.

This is real easy.

Take the line up that completed the most recent tours : Rose/Ashba/Fortus/Thal/Stinson/Reed/Pittman/Ferrer

What can they do as a band?  I have no earthly idea.  No clue.  I have zero indication what those 8 guys would create if they got down to it.

But this does not affect my enjoyment of anything on CD.  Or anything on any next album, which will be more of the same in terms of songs done by NOT these guys.  If the songs are good, the songs are good.

But is it the work of those 8 guys on the stage?  Absolutely not.  Those 8 fellas, I can't speak on what they would do if let loose.  No one can.

Poor you, so attention deprived, so desperate  :crying:

Not your "sweetheart" that is offensive and sexist. Don't make me come up with a pet name for you ;)

What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

I welcome all nicknames.  I feel you and I have that sort of chummy rapport.

As a music fan, don't you find it really silly and very surface level that some "fans" would limit their enjoyment of new music simply because of who has songwriting credits?

You bring up very interesting and intriguing points  : ok:

Yes those two groups of people are the same to me. Part of the unwashed masses stuck in there own little world   There are many more types of people that I can toss in the unwashed group.  The airplane bums, (people that stand up when the plane lands, like some how they are going to now get off quicker.  The people that stand right as close to the baggage carousel blocking people behind them, like there bag is going to be the first off, never is). I could go on and on

Back to the concerts though.  U know what you are getting with a guns n roses show.  If you can't be out late.  Don't go. Don't try and blame the band and get them to conform to your own little world.  For a night conform to the bands world

I have to work, I have kids, I may live a far ways away from the venue.  But I also find a way to figure it all out and enjoy myself  

I couldn't care less who has song writing credits, being a fan.  It should never take away from the enjoyment we get from listening to the music

Sure we all have our fav artists we would want to hear from the most.   But as a fan of Axl and the band , it doesn't really matter to me

To the current band members it may be a bigger deal

I agree, some can't separate their entitlement issues from the sheer appreciation of music as an art form.

Some people mistakenly think they have some sort of input into production, management, songwriting and selection of band members simply because they purchased a few albums or attended a few shows.

I'm very much looking forward to the next album and touring cycle  :beer:

Well, I could not disagree with that in strong enough terms.

Saying someone at the show asking you to sit down is analogous to a person having to take a day off from work to see a simple rock show are not the least bit analogous to me.

You are attempting to compare a situation of undefined, "just be cool, bro" concertgoing etiquette with real world responsibilities any functioning adult is going to have in their actual lives.



And bully for you.

I could also do it.  We own our own business.  If I need off, I double check with myself, and I approve it.

Am I everybody?  Of course not.  I'm fortunate.  Not everyone is.  

And even if you want to revert right back telling fans to shut their fucking yap and just make it happen, well, not everyone can.  Maybe they can't afford the added cost of an all night babysitter.  Or an exorbinant late night cab ride home.  Or a missed day of work.

And "well, fuck 'em then" is fine as a lark on a message board.  That's just two dudes talking.  As an actual legit business plan, its pretty bonkers.  There's a reason no other major band runs things this way.  Its bad business.  No rational band will take a 75% filled place of indeterminate size over a 100% attendance in a good spot.

For what?  To say you are keeping some sort of vague spirit of rock n' roll burning?

You keep repeating this like someone is making that point.  Where is that happening?



This, I agree with.  These guys are incredible sports.

They are upset because GN'R doesn't do what the Bon Jovis of the world are doing. In other words, GN'R is different. It upsets several fans because they don't like it! God damn it!
They don't even attend shows in their neighborhood, but it upsets them! For years.




Security and stuff like that.

I think the cleaners come to work in the morning.  :hihi:





/jarmo

If someone's life is so strict they can change there mon to fri 9-5 routine.  Or they are struggling in life and can't afford to take time off work or just can't take time off work.  Or have young kids and can't find someone to watch them.  Then going to a guns n roses concert may not be the best option for you

Again you know what you get when u go to a guns n roses show.  It may start late and it may go 3 hrs.   And I would suggest joe blow rock fan would know that.   Mb guns should just promote and anounce that the show will start very late.  So there is no room for complaints.  I know what u get when you buy the ticket.   But I don't think they have to.  They have been around long enough and chances are this is not the first time they are putting a show on in your city

The kids issue really bothers me.  The excuse of not having a babysitter.   Then don't go!!!!  Stay home with your little kids.  I will bring up the airports again. As on a recent flight there has a handful of new born babies flying with there you g parents to a very remote hot destination.  Crying and screaming the whole flight.   Well I am really sure these 2 month old babies are really getting a lot out of this trip.   My eardrums sure did.  But these are the parents that are caught up in there own little world.  As they want to go on a trip!!!   Wait till your kids are a little bigger to go on a trip.  So people don't have to listen to screaming and get hit by stollers.   If you have little kids at home and are worried about a sitter now because husband and wife want to check out gnr.  Mb don't go.  Mb wait a few years till the kids get bigger so u have one less thing to worry about

And I'd agree.

But I am a person that has zero problem saying "that's the way its always been and will not change" and follow it right up with "...but its fucking stupid and might cost some fans a chance to see the band."

I hold both positions on this particular topic. 

Hold them both under no illusions things will ever, ever change.  But I also don't see the rationale that simply because its my favorite band doing things in this manner, I'm supposed to not say what I think of it.  Or, even worse, try and church it up and explain how its all awesome.

Is what it is.  And like you say, we all know the deal.

On the other hand, you seem to have a problem with saying: "That's how Axl is, and I respect it since he goes on when he's ready to perform at his best for two-three hours instead of faking it for an hour and a half".




/jarmo

I would have a problem saying it because I don't believe it.

Much as you would presumably roll your eyes at what I'm saying, I roll my eyes at that.

Different perspectives, is all.

I strongly disagree with you. Axl needs to realize that his fanbase is much older now than before. Some people can't get off of work or find a baby sitter. For me, I work at Bloomberg which is very busy and competitive in the company. Although I have 27 vacation days this year since I've been there for 14 years, it's hard for me to  take off sometimes. It's just the nature of the business that I'm in.  Another example is Slash & Aerosmith. They were the Prudential Center in Newark back in November. The concert was on a Wednesday. My friend couldn't find a babysitter for the night. He also didn't want to take the next day off. I felt the same way since it was in the middle of the week.

Rock bands of the 80s & 90s have to realize that they are old along with the fans. There just comes up a point where you can't expect your fans to be at your concerts since they now have responsibilities. It's a part of life.  

Yep.

And its a shame that things devolve right to "that's how it always was!" or "then stay home, loser."

Totally misses the point being made.

Hey not everyone is meant to go to a concert

So a band that does not tour that often hi would like them to conform to the masses and work on a better performing schedual that appeals to a wider range of fans that would other wise not be able to make the show

I say this wider range of fans should conform to the band.  That doesn't tour that often and you may not be able to see for a while.  If for one night and one morning you in your life can't conform to the bands scedual I say you shouldn't be there

It's like me saying I wish some of my all time fav European bands would travel to Canada and play shows closer to me.  I want them to conform to what I want.  No that's not how it should work.  If I want to see one of these bands I conform to there schedual and travel to see them.  If I can't travel.  I don't start a giant fuss about how they never tour Canada!   If you can't make it to a gnr show you can't....    Don't expect the band to change to fit your needs. 

That's the thing though.  I'm not sure anyone is planting a flag in the ground and calling for revolution on the subject.

We all know the deal.  Shit ain't gonna change.

It just comes down to some seeing it as an unfortunate circumstance that can lead to difficulty for some of the band's fans, and others feeling its their duty to attempt to shame and belittle anyone that dares utter that aloud.  As if they are somehow dissing the band by pointing this out.

I don't see that connection.

I can only speak for myself, obviously.  But if someone told me they couldn't do a mid-week show because of work, or because a sitter or special transportation would put the pinch on them financially, I would never then make fun of them for it.  Nor question their fandom, generally tell them to fuck off, and go follow some other band, you loser.

Those are horrible things to say to a person.  Over a rock concert?

Nah.

Ya I see it two ways for myself

It's the way it is and you and everyone should know that

And

I actually like the late start times.  I like making an event out of it. Not just a concert but an event.  I would of loved to of been in vegas in the early 2000s when they came on stage at 330 in the morning

To be honest, it worked out great for me.

The place I saw them had a lobby where you could mill about, and get your drink on.  Liquor, not just the usual $8 Budweisers.

Got there, skipped the opening act entirely, and just hung in the lobby.  Everyone had a blast.  Didn't go to my seat until the house lights dimmed at 11:10 PM.  In my seat by 11:15, they played for three hours.  Great time had by all.

But, a couple things.

I'm a single guy with no responsibilities.  Even if I wasn't it, the show was on a Saturday night.  It all worked out for me.

But I talked to more than one person in that lobby that said if the show was not on a weekend, they would have missed it.  And, to be honest, I'm not sure I didn't feel the same way.  Not that I wouldn't do it, but there would be a factor there that is not present for any other midweek concert I would go to.

In fact, that's the reason I didn't go see them 3 months later at a small spot here in Philly.  It was like, a Tuesday.  Figured it was largely the exact same show I just saw, so fuck it.  Also knew no one else but me would sign on for that operation with work the next day.

But, hearing that bootleg now, wish I'd gone.  Axl's strongest vocal performance of that year (2012) and...probably better than anything I heard in 2011 either.  He was awesome. 

I missed out.  Shit happens.

I think the idea is if you don't like it, don't go.  If Axl's ok with losing business because of the start times, thats his choice.  No idea how much of an impact it has on sales, but clearly its more than nothing.

Just to add, Slash/Aerosmith had a tough time selling out the Prudential Center arena. The tickets were available for a really good discount on Groupon a month before the concert happened. I think if the concert was on a Thursday, Friday or Saturday, it would have easily sold out.  

For me, I'm going to see AC/DC on August 26th. In the U.S., the financial services sector tends to be slow in August, especially the last two weeks. Everyone tries to squeeze in a vacation before school starts. If the concert was on a Wednesday at any other time (like Slash/Aerosmith), I wouldn't go. However, it falls on the right time  for me so I'm going.  

Funny or not I still have two unused/unreturned tickets for the tour that got canceled when bucket left... (Arnhem, Netherlands I think) It was actually many years later that I knew why this tour was canceled.

If people want to complain about start times...I got off work, drove 2 1/2 hrs to the Hartford show, made it for Sebastian Bach, stayed till the end at 3:30ish and made it back for an 8am start time at work. It was TOTALLY worth it. Greatest concert ever. I would do it again in a minute.  : ok:

OH, COME ON! It was an intentionally inflamative choice, with an intentionally negative connotation. It wasn't stylistic. It was meant to invoke flashbacks to previous RIOTS at GnR shows. Period.

Just fucking own it, already. Jesus....

Edit: And yes, I know I'm late to the party.....Boston all weekend. Interesting conversations with the Harmonix guys (makers of Rock band). :)

I like how no one takes into account the people who work at said venues. Granted a lot of them are union workers who are getting paid overtime but some of them also have families who they have to go home too. It doesn't just affect the fans who go to the shows.

Nobody forces the promoter and venue to book the show, nobody forces the fan to buy a ticket, nobody forces the band members and crew to sign up for the tour. It is what it is at this point so enough about late starts. I am personally sick of hearing about it.   >:(

Agreed. It's not ideal. I have always had mixed feelings on this topic. But they say that's life right?

Yeah, its never going to change.  We all know that.

But I wonder if the people "sick of hearing about it" might be more accurate phrasing it "I'm sick of trying to have to put a good face on this".

Even the people supposedly bitching about this all, to a man, concede its how it is and will never, ever will change.  So its not about some sort of preposterous assertion anyone is trying to get Axl to change his ways.  They are just pointing out some drawbacks to the approach, which are very real world.

So isn't what "people are sick of" is having to address those points, and they'd rather they just not be brought up?

Just a theory.

The story that Brain told about the rehearsal before Rock in Rio was crazy. It seems to me that Axl just needs a regular guy friend to tell him "hey, that kinda stuff is messed up".

Sorry, no.

We all have jobs where, sometimes, we are pressed into working OT, or being at work longer than we anticipate.  I've pulled 30+ hour shifts before, when an upgrade goes sideways. I've worked, in my younger days, VERY late nights (and very early mornings) IN a venue, when something needed addressing before/during/after a show.

Yes, it sucks. Yes, I appreciate that they might be sacrificing some sleep (because who is hanging out with their family at midnight, that couldn't do so at 2 AM?).

But do I feel like they should be "taken into account"? Not so much. They're getting paid, and paid relatively well for the OT....and it's part of what you sign up for when you work in a venue (I know, I've done it).

Meh...

The release was coming either way. The best buy thing was simply the best deal to be made for it.  Credit where credit is due.

And then he apparently went AWOL, dealing with his integration into LiveNation and TM, in the run up.  So it wasn't all unicorns and rainbows.

I like how you don't read all the posts:







Don't worry, its about time for the old name debate to come back. Soon... Or is it time for the setlist discussion?

 :rofl:



/jarmo

Is that why people kept leaving the band?  Because that release was coming either way?

Look, I get Azoff is on the Antichrist list because he suggested what any remotely competent manager would suggest to Axl.

But we were nowhere on getting that album out before him.  Axl had been diddling for YEARS.

So shit on the guy if you want, and I'm not going to go all out lauding him as some great man.  But he succeeded for us where countless other failed.

I might be mistaken, but I think the recording sessions had ended a couple of months before Azoff was hired. They were already in release talks with the record company when he arrived.

Giving credit to Azoff???  Someone's jonesing for a Karma point reduction...

Going by the accounts of Axl, it wasn't just a 'suggestion to Axl' as you say. It was a scheme to make it happen, forcing him in a position to do it.

So think of it like a Governor or a President with job numbers.  You get credit when things are good, and take heat when they are bad. 

Well...yeah.

Hey, hey, HEY!!  That's enough out of you, mister.

I'm just saying that they seemed to be closer to a release than ever at the time of Azoff's arrival. He probably helped speed up the process further, but I think it would have come out anyway.

I think your theory is spot on.  There?s not so much an argument for it as there is a justification for it, which usually falls into one of two camps.  The ?it?s always been like this? camp (note: are you still acting the same way you were 20+ years ago???), and the artistic integrity camp (it takes time for Axl to get ready), which has the not so subtle ?you?re an asshole for wanting Axl to do things on your schedule.?

Yeah, but when?  2011 would qualify for "came out eventually" too, no?

The "it takes time for Axl to get ready" bit is the part I find the goofiest.

What people are actually telling you is not that Axl needs a certain amount of prep time, but actually that its literally dependent on a clock.  The prep can't start until a certain time.

If you tell me that he needs 3 hours to get ready, fine.  So why can't you start that process earlier?  Why do you not get rolling on that until 8-9PM?

Is the argument seriously being made that its not a conscious decision on Axl's part when he chooses to start this prep of his?  Of course it is.  And its not bound by anything other than his personal choice to do it that way.

Impossible for me to know.. All we know is that they were further in the release process than ever before. Take 2006 as an example, we all thought it would come out then. We later learned that they weren't done with the recording sessions at the time they said 'it would come out that year'. In the beginning of 2008 the recording sessions were done.

All true.

But, just for examples sake, let's take 2 guys and start them at the same point, when recording was done.

The two guys are Merck and Azoff.  You have a lot of confidence Merck gets the same good deal, as favorable, as quickly?  I don't.

I'm not putting Azoff up for sainthood, but he does deserve some credit.  He's a guy with a lot of clout in the business that gets shit done.

I'm not denying that Azoff probably was the catalyst for getting CD out at the time it did come out. Merck... I don't know. I guess he never got to show his negotiation skills with the record company about the release itself, as Axl needed to complete the recording first. Merck might have had great success in dealing with the record company about the release strategy if he had stayed and been given the chance.

Azoff never dealed with completing the recording sessions.

Ugh, what don't you like about the setlist now, Jarmo?  :)

Maybe I make too much out of this, but I will never get over the whole "13 Tuesday lefts / it could just show up in the store" debacle.

Just such a preposterous statement to make for a manager of a big time band.

Not very smart I agree.

The recording was completed in early 2007. It was posted on gunsnroses.com in February 2007.

Axl announced the management thing in March 2008.




Haha!

Don't worry, it's coming.
We've already went from the topic of the thread into late starts into how amazing Azoff is.

Soon, somebody will bring up how upset they are regarding the album's promotion.....




/jarmo

  Being a vocalist I'd imagine is a whole different ball game to playing an instrument. I suppose those that play instrument, have some degree of warming up but its their "digits" that ultimately earn the wages, along with being in the zone mentally. With Axl, its not just his vocal cords that need to be right, his preperation is as a frontman, andnot like Liam Gallager of Oasis, who just stands still, Axl has to be in the zone in regards to be physically right.

 Does Axl still get stage fright? I'd be shocked if doesn't have some kind of trepidation to work through, and loads of the top acts all go through that. Again that's another part of the act that to a large degree, goes un-noticed, or at least un remarked upon. If Axl trips up he's there to be shot at, no ifs, no buts, Axls role if far more intense than any other band member....And as such, deserves that time to deliver a 180 minute kick ass show. :smoking:

Agreed all around.

I just don't buy the argument this process simply cannot start before, say, 8 PM.  It doesn't start until then because that's when Axl chooses to start it.

That's all.

Hot shot, I got know skin in the game either way and am not here to address any points negatively or positively. I am simply stating what the facts are and will leave all bullshit "theories" to loudmouth, knucklehead, Yankee smartasses like yourself.

He could start the so called process the day before and it still doesn't guarantee the show to start at your convenience!

Educate yourself. Read some articles (http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/articles/showarticle.php?articleid=182). Don't just sit there thinking you have a clue.

You probably assume this is like warming up for a game. Run for X minutes, stretch, done, ready. If it was simple like that you could assume your logic works. But it's not.
Wake up with a sore throat versus not. See, that alone makes the schedule different.




/jarmo

Have we even met?

Is there anything in that post that addresses you specifically in some way?  When I direct posts at specific people, I quote a post of theirs as an introduction to my response.  Did that happen?

You need to chillax, soldier.

I read that article when it came out.

Shit, you and I have specifically talked about that very article, several times now.

Shit, it seems like you read things and either don't understand them or ignore what's said.



/jarmo

Perhaps I'm just not as willing an audience.

And perhaps too willing to think a few steps ahead.  Or, at all.

Absolute rubbish. It is a perfectly apt word as demonstrated by my dictionary quotation and I am perfectly entitled to use it. 'Riotous'? A word so controversial it sends HTGTH in an uproar lol!!

Yeah, you're right. Thinking and you don't mix.  :)



You think too highly of the effect you have on this board.   :-*

If it was anybody else, it would probably be true.
Now it was you, just a funny coincidence that somebody who's celebrating Festivus with Airing of Grievances 365 days of the year uses the word? Right.




/jarmo

I did not give the word a second though when typing it. (I might have opted for 'turbulent', but I suppose that would have upset HTGTH also?) The reaction here has been completely over the top. To repeat, 'riotous': ''unrestrained: loud, conspicuous, and unrestrained'' - yes, I have no problems with the usage of the word in that context. 

I think the point pilferk made, at least, the one I made, is that you use a word automatically that fits your agenda/image of GN'R.

You think a certain way of GN'R, in that sense your choice of word is logical.

Everything has a reason.
Simple as that.

Just like asking somebody who never liked GN'R to write a gig or album review. The starting point isn't at the same place where somebody who loves the band starts from.




/jarmo

''Unrestrained: loud, conspicuous'' to describe a crowd before the arrival of a late Axl Rose. Just, what is your problem with the term?

We've explained it to you numerous times already.
Not exactly shocked that somebody who's shown little support for GN'R here, would use a word that starts with riot.




/jarmo

Well, Axl is not exactly an angel on this front. Axl incited riots read like a regimental battle roll call,

St Louis 91
Montreal 92
Vancouver 02
Philadelphia 02

Then there are the numerous other temper tantrums (Chile 92), shortened shows (Newcastle 06), incidents (Dublin 2010) and late arrivals.

In light of the evidence, should usage of 'riotous' be so surprising?

shortened shows? really? A short show is a long one.......here we go with the setlist argument Jarmo. : ok:

Well I certainly do not want that argument! It is Jarmo insisting pursuing this absurd controversy over the wholly innocuous adjective 'riotous'. Considering Axl is no stranger to 'riots', it does not seem that an inappropriate term. Although that was not really my illustration with the original use of the term, I am trying to establish just why it is so offensive to the semantics here!

message for mortismurphy; "I can see you typing away, you think you're so smart - why don't ya just

(http://robbwolf.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/AxlRose-FlipOff2.jpg)

[/b]

you and your moaning is boring

Thanks.

Based on the picture, this is a message I can presume comes from W. Axl Rose himself (of a certain vintage)?

Various reasons, some of them inactivity, over many years.


1) Not the Antichrist
2) A bit more than a "suggest to Axl", by all accounts
3) A "remotely competent" manager knows his client well enough to know what is, and isn't, off limits
4) A "remotely competent" manager is above board with his client in all his dealings
5) A "remotely competent" manager doesn't abandon his clients, in their hour of need essentially, to concentrate on, and further, their new corporate career.

There was a LOT more about Azoff than simply the reunion suggestion that made him a poor manager


Maybe so.  My comment was more in line with Azoff making the best buy deal being the impetus for the album coming out.  I think the album was ready, and THEN the best buy deal was made.  How much Azoff had to do with getting the album out (and not just being "right place/right time") we can debate.


He was at the helm when it occurred.  Some of the documentation filed in the Axl/Azoff lawsuit calls into question (and not just the stuff Axl filed) how much he actually had to do with encouraging it's release.

Correct. At least according to a lot of the documentation filed as part of the Axl/Azoff lawsuit.

Nope.  Sorry, that just doesn't apply.

You're saying the guy wasn't all bad, in one breath, because he basically was in the right place at the right time.

The best buy deal was a good deal, financially.  Credit where it's due. It's probably the best distribution deal they could have made (though it came with it's own challenges).

But, like I said (and you objected to)..the album was coming out, Azoff or no.  Thus...meh.

Shouldnt this thread be at the Ex gunners section?

Brain made pretty clear in this interview that he is out of the band.

He was and is a guy, at that point, living on past laurels.

He did get a good deal done.

But he's also widely regarded as a snake and an asshole in the industry.  And that was only furthered by his (unsuccessful) run with LiveNation and TM.

I think you're giving him WAY too much credit.  He deserves a bit, for that one deal.

He deserves FAR more shade for some of the other shenanigans he pulled.

I think the "Merck vs Azoff" debate is seperate from the conversation we're having here.  Was Azoff better than Merck? Maybe.  I'm not sure that's high praise, given some of the debacles Merck presided over.

And...Merck was a great guy.  He truly cared about the band.  I just think he might have been out of his depth at that place and at that time with GnR.

You're wallowing in so much BS...I'm almost willing to get you a shovel.

Everyone reading what you wrote knows why you chose the word.  You can "play dumb" all you want...but it just detracts from any point you're making.

You have the same MO.  You make an inflamatory, or less than apt word choice, and then go to the dictionary to try to justify it's use (knowing, full well, the actual reasoning in play).

Is it semantically apt? Sure..but the word was chosen for a specific purpose...to inflame and incite.  Period.

If you won't own it...great.  It just continues to color your continued participation in the discussions here. Honestly, I'm at the point where it's time to realize that nothing you say should be taken seriously.

Really? I thought it was a "stylistic choice"?

I think you are reading far to much into this!

I think we're all reading exactly what you put on the page, and we're doing exactly what you expected to be done, when choosing that word.

And we pretty much all know it.

You, yourself, pointed out why it's a poor choice of words....looking back on past ACTUAL riots....demonstrating that "riotous", in relation to GnR, would give imagery of ACTUAL riots (which, in point of fact, did not take place in relation to Brain's story). It's inflammatory. It was meant to incite anger and angry response from other posters.

And yet you still defend it.

You can argue til you're blue in the face that's not the case. Nobody's going to buy it.

I'd have a lot more respect for you if you'd just own it.

I stand corrected. I think you are reading far far too much into this!

Well, either you had a purpose or you made a blunder in prose so boneheaded as to paint everything else you post as being from questionable intellect.

I'm actually giving you the benefit of the doubt.

But either way....

I think I ehh, wrote the adjective 'riotous'!!

So, what you're saying is, you're so tone deaf to GnR history that you wouldn't see how that word might harken back to ACTUAL riots, and give the impression/implication that there was an ACTUAL riot going on while Axl was getting that massage.  That using that word would obfuscate any actual point you're making by being inflammatory?

Really?

Sorry, I don't buy it.  And I doubt anybody else does either.

But, if that's REALLY the case...I harken back to my previous post.

It is actually frightening, disturbing even, the levels of hyperbolic offense taken at such an innocuous word! But rolling with it for one second...

I think Brain described the crowd as 'crazy', 'going crazy'. I was paraphrasing (of which, I freely acknowledged at the time), some seven or so hours after originally listening to this interview (this was before Jarmo posted a complete transcription of the passage) and used 'riotous' over 'crazy'.

Do you really want to continue with this as it is dull beyond belief?

Nope, I think you've made my point for me stunningly well!  Your insistence that, in this setting, and in this context, the word was "Innocuous" (after, yourself, pointing out it's connection to GnR history) better makes my point than anything else I could add.

And I agree: It IS dull...though for likely entirely different reasons than you do.

There are two readings of the word 'riotous'. There is a generalised reading, 'crazy, unruly, turbulent', and a more specific reason, meaning someone or something is 'liable to riot'. Correct? Now, I implied the former. When I discussed the riots in connection with GN'R, I was sort of, rolling with Jarmo's opinion for sake of argument. Because, in truth, even if I did imply the latter rendering, I still do not find that usage that controversial. Let's face it, 'no Axl' and there is a more than decent chance that the crowd will riot. Axl's reputation rather proceeds him. And Brain toured with them in 2002. That tour alone included two riots!

You said you thought this was dull...yet...you're still going.

Seriously, you can stop making my case for me!

A last hurrah on, 'riotousgate'.

Like I said, you're "paraphrasing" what was said and the first word that came to mind, you used. The reasons are that you want to use that word because it fits the picture you have of GNR and because you like to stir shit up.

Simple.

I'm glad you find it frightening that some here are calling your bullshit.  : ok:



But he's still involved. Just not touring.




/jarmo

In your, incorrect, opinion.

No, not incorrect. Just different.
Just like 99% of your opinions are based on assumptions and wishful thinking, two can play that game.

Just like some of you are free to dismiss facts and things said because it doesn't matter to you, the same can be applied to you. So yeah, you can deny it all you want. That's how it looks to me. :D



/jarmo