Here Today... Gone To Hell!

http://rockreflected.com/1/post/2015/02/interview-dj-ashba-of-guns-n-roses-and-sixx-am-talks-modern-vintage-guitar-idols-horror-flicks.html (http://rockreflected.com/1/post/2015/02/interview-dj-ashba-of-guns-n-roses-and-sixx-am-talks-modern-vintage-guitar-idols-horror-flicks.html)

Add that to the mix..haha

This line is about 3 years old now... "Our main focus right now is obviously putting together the next Guns record and we've got tons of material. It's just a matter of sitting down and sifting through the pieces"

you do have to laugh at the timing of that..... :hihi:

I'm sensing a comeback of MASSIVE proportions is imminent with the release of new "remix" single Blood in the Water....Sing it "I see blood in the water" say what?? "blood in the water"! The Blood in the water world tour 2015

Richard Fortus is in Cuba, Dj Ashba is in Japan and Bumblefoot is in another asian country. I don't think they will go back to the studio as soon as possible.

Nice find, thanks for posting!



/jarmo

So, given the timestamp on this interview, does this mean we can stop clinging to the crutch that DJ and Richard's comments are so different because DJ made his months ago?

Three days is a long time, you know? Enough to go from, ''I don't think there's gonna be any touring soon'', to, ''we were talking about doing another huge tour''!!

Go ahead! Go for it!


By the way, he didn't say when.



/jarmo

I don't think DJ is doing this to be malicious or intentionally misleading.  I think he's doing it subconsciously.

Think of it like a politician's stump speech.  They say that shit over and over and over again at every stop.  The words come out through sheer muscle memory.

So, when DJ is interviewed, he just falls back on his stump speech.

It doesn't make him the Antichrist.  But it does suggest we don't have to take him super seriously.

It's a breath of fresh air, reading a member of gnr actually likes playing gnr music

Also it gnr would be record he couldn't live with out

Nice interview and you can tell DJ really does get it.  

So mb all this tour talk will be sourounding  the release of an album... 

Also just glad Dj said there was just talk of a tour.  Not a plan for one.   Big difference

That's a nice interview. If you can get over "he said this, and that guy said that" comparisons for a second.




/jarmo

When band member A says ''yes'', and band member B says ''no'', you do not think that is worth pondering over?

A says "we plan on doing it", B says "not soon".

What's the issue? Nobody said "never" or "tomorrow".




/jarmo

Talking about ''doing another huge tour'' presupposes that there will be ''touring''. The two statements flat out contradict each other, even when taking into consideration adverbial time spans.

It's a legit question.

Please, can you show me the quote where somebody said there'll never be a GN'R tour? Or any kind of time frame where two statements contradict each other. And I'm not talking about what Dj said last year versus what somebody said months later.

Thanks.




/jarmo

I think painstakingly trying to concoct a scenario where both guys are "right" and there is nothing to see here misses the point.

I think the real takeaway from the radically divergent statements is that there is no real plan right now.  And that's hardly the end of the world.

That was a good read. I'm glad DJ came into the band.

How can you not see the inherent contradiction between, ''I don't think there's gonna be any touring soon'', and, ''we were talking about doing another huge tour''. To put it another way, Fortus left these talks (assuming they happened) ''about doing another huge tour'' with the opinion that there is not ''gonna be any touring soon''.

I agree

I wasnt a fan of his at all.  Actually really didn't like him

But the guy really has grown on me and I think he adds a lot to the band and both guns and the fans are lucky to have him in the band

Is that your spin?

We don't plan on touring soon -> Don't expect a summer tour.
We were talking about doing a tour -> We were. They were talking. When? They might still might be thinking about it. Does it mean soon? No. Does it mean this year? Maybe, maybe not.


How many ways do I need to explain it to you that there's no lies involved?
Also, use your free thinking capabilities here. And not always to assume Dj lies to you.




/jarmo

I don't think anyone is saying guns is going to be touring soon.   So what's the problem

It could be possible that there have been talks to do a tour in the future.  

Neither of there statements contradict that

Hey, I can talk now about planning on eating a hamburger. But not soon.

Does that contradict what I said?




/jarmo

Nobody is saying there are 'lies'. That is you bringing Mr Straw Man out as per usual. There is however an inherent contradiction in the two statements. The touring issue, when brought up, produces (at minimum) a vague positive from Ashba, and a vague negative from Fortus.

Sweet Jesus, that?s a pretty semantic, hair splitting defense. 

So you think there are no inconsistencies between ?we?re going to be doing a lot more touring? and ?I don?t think there?s going to be any touring soon??  Ok.  Before, you noted the time separation between the interviews and said that something changed, sort of admitting the two statements are different, but that the difference in timing accounted for them so that each could be true without contradicting the other.  Now, are you saying these statements, even if they were made the same day, don?t contradict each other?

I like his solos more than I do any of the others.  Any except Bucket.

Sure is.

Screw you bitter unfans that have to ruin every discussion here with your negative crap and trying to discredit anyone associated with this band, nobody is lying, you aren't being deceived so STFU. :rant:

I enjoyed this interview, thanks for posting-! I like DJ a lot.

Well, that was helpful!

And who is calling DJ a liar?  All that's being said is that statements from both he and Richard don't match up.

Given that the big chief spend a good portion of yesterday furiously trying to sell that the inconsistency was due to the fact that DJ made his comments so long ago, its more than a fair question to ask what the new take was now that we have him saying it in an interview with a date stamp of yesterday.

Going so all in yesterday opens up the question today when new facts emerge that contradict yesterday's premise.

Rather than 'lying', I place the inconsistency on a lack of communication. Sometimes these members seem as, in the dark, as we are and therefore fall back on vague 'stock' statements: ''yes there are plans to tour; currently, it is a question of sitting down and sorting through the material'' etc.

If you want to show a clear cut contradiction, the case would be made more easily if both people cited a specific time frame.  For instance, if Richard said, I don't think we'll be doing any touring in 2015, and DJ said we will be doing a lot of touring in 2015, then you have a very clear cut contradiction.

As it is now, I'd say the statements are definitely confusing, possibly contradicting.

Ali

Agreed.  The answers always seem to be the same bullet points.  I'm not sure they ever really check back to see if things have changed.

I wonder if the basket was really a prank someone on the band played on him.

GnR's giving us the gift of missing them, so I'm sure we're going to see a lot of fake "leaks" coming and a wide variety of rumors.

One thing we probably won't see is a release date for the next GnR album. I think most of us would rather not know and let it happen when it happens.

I'm pretty sure we can safely say GN'R will tour again. The stock answer that gets me a little is the "we are sifting through songs to get working on". It's become comical.

My hope is that the songs are practically done and ready to go....

No I don't, both can be true!

But for people who dislike Dj, this is just another reason to!




/jarmo

Just re-read the revolver interview with Axl. It's all there.."we have what i call the second half of CD & a remix album & after Vegas we will look at what we are doing in that regard."

Exactly! A band like this look at months like mere mortals look at days. If the plan is to start a huge worldwide tour in January 2016 say it is still something that's in the pipeline. Most bands announce gigs nearly a year in advance now.

Richard could easily have meant until after Summer or whatever.

Yeah, but even this got parsed.

What does he mean by done?  Does he mean "done done", or just "done"?  That sort of thing.

Wiggle room had to be created, stat.

I agree with this. It seems to be a case of the two of them looking at a potential tour with different perspectives.

The case could be that they both know there are talks about doing a new tour, let's say one year into the future. One of them choose to look at it as a "big thing" coming up (giving no timeframe). The other one wants to give the fans a realistic idea of what to expect in the near future, knowing there are talks about a tour, but it's still a year ahead so nothing has been set in stone yet.

None of them are lying. It could be perceived as confusing for the fans with the two statements coming out at the same time, but I don't think that was their intention since one guy probably doesn't know how the other guy has worded himself in an interview.

This could well be.

I have always found DJ has more of a rose colored glasses view of the situation with GNR than most.  And perhaps his comment was a bit more what he hopes happens versus what will happen.

True.  But the justification the other day (from Jarmo) was the difference in time between the interviews, and (in Jarmo's words) "something changed" from when DJ gave his interview last year.  Now, we're saying that, all along, both statements are true, so actually nothing changed.

No one else finds that interesting?

Yeah, that's what I was getting at.

Jarmo was pretty over the top that the time between the comments was the reason for the difference in comments.

So, when it comes out that DJ is still saying that in the here and now...its very fair to ask about it.

I think the situation is interesting and confusing.  But, until someone asks for a specific timeframe that Richard and/or DJ are talking about, I think this is just going to be an open discussion.

Ali

There is no contradiction there, one statement says soon, the other doesn't

If you look at someone like Andre Rieu, he will be planning for 12-24 months ahead because of the complexity of his show. Just because something isn't happening soon, doesn't mean it is not happening.

I don't know how much Jarmo knows about the ongoings in the band at the moment, but it could be Jarmo was just giving his opinion on what could be the reason for that to happen? Sort of giving a plausible explanation to that situation.

We are all just speculating here..

I think there is a lot of clutching straws going on here, to make these two statements fit.

So, you think one of them are deliberately lying? What would be the point of that?

Recap time!

September 2014 - Dj says the band plans to tour in 2015
February 2015 - Richard says there's no tour soon.
February 2015 - Dj says the band plans to tour.

The way I see it, using common sense, and without the agenda to try to make band members look like liars, is that between Dj's first comment and Richard's comment, plans changed. Or Dj's "tour in 2015" doesn't mean whatever Richard considers soon. That could also be the case.

The second comment from Dj does not specify when that planned tour would take place, or where. It's pretty open to interpretation. Some of you use that gap to make it seem like he's lying. Also, that comment, just like Richard's comment about GN'R still existing, could just be a way from Dj to calm certain people down regarding the whole "OMG! GN'R is over!" theories.



/jarmo

See above.

Answer the question. Why do you think they are lying to you, at all times.



/jarmo

There is something really sinister that happens on this forum, through the introduction of Strawman arguments. The first - the only people - to bring up 'liars', 'lying', was Jarmo and Emily. At no point have I, DGX or Ginger (I believe) ever accused these two members of 'lying'.

I am not going to defend an opinion that I do not possess and did not even state to began with!!

To reiterate,

Personally, I think Richard was being totally honest and DJ was being a bit pie in the sky, as he is a lot of the time.

So what's the point of you pointing this out?

What's your endgame? Is it a pity party with DX?



/jarmo

Yeah, its crazy.  But I'm used to it from those two.

I don't take it personal.  And still try and cobble together a coherent conversation out of it (easier said than done, sometimes).

This all started with this :


That's all what was said.

I was looking for you reaction to the fact you spent a lot of time and energy on a premise that was disproven by the posting of this interview.

I posted a recap explaining it all.

Just read it please, don't try to think how I feel or what I think. Just read the post. :)  : ok:



/jarmo

Look, I didn't read your previous comments on this page, sorry. I was just asking a question based on the last comment you made.


The two statements doesn't "flat out contradict each other" as you said. One of them are giving a vague time frame while the other one doesn't give one at all. If the tour is planned for say December of this year, then it really comes down to Richard's definition of "soon". For all we know he's looking two months into the future with his tour comment.

You don't have to stretch things very far to make the two comments match. This could easily have a natural explanation.

None of the comments contradict each other. These people are too stubborn to realize it.





/jarmo

No problems. It is just I get this from certain other members (I think I am now a 'DJ Hater' also!)


Hmm, it is a hard sell for me - I am sorry. Firstly, you would have to assume that Ashba's long term plans are very, futuristic, in order to eradicate the 'soon'. Secondly, both statements have that vague, informality, we are used to.

PAY NO ATTENTION TO THAT MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN!!

Why are you here if you're not gonna read what I posted?


Since you seem confused, I'll link it to you: http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/board/index.php?topic=66151.msg1380860#msg1380860


It's not my fault you're too busy finding your caps lock key instead of reading what's been said. Focus on one thing at the time.




/jarmo

Then, other than one of them lying, what is your reasoning for them to come out and say what they did?

If Spirit, Mysteron (and probably pilferk) gets it, why can't the other two?




/jarmo

I read it.  I disagree with it.

What else am I supposed to do?  Be waterboarded until I do?

I forgot you're into water sports.



/jarmo

Rattle, rattle...

We plan on touring in 2015.
We won't tour soon.
We plan on going on tour.


No wonder Axl doesn't give lots of interviews. If that confuses you.



/jarmo

My own belief is there is a lack of communication between Axl/Team Brazil and the constituent parts of the band. This tallies in with what Ron said, about not being able to get a phone call down to management. I basically think, when bombarded with gnr questions, they fall back on vague platitudes. It is not deliberate lying. They can only have recourse to fall back on vague half-discussed plans, discussed at distant meetings. Probably one or two members are more, in the loop, and converse with each other. One of the only occasions when a band member spoke bluntly was, this occasion,


- Ron (March 2013)
http://www.blabbermouth.net/news/guns-n-roses-guitarist-bumblefoot-just-forget-about-a-new-record-until-it-happens/

This happened at a time when members such as Dizzy and DJ were discussing 'recording'. We are much closer to the reality here, I feel.

This seems very plausible.

Many times the answers are word for word the exact same thing.

It is fairly simple, some things happen soon, and some thing just happen. A birthday is May is soon, a birthday is January is not soon, taking into account an Earth Year as a frame of reference, but they both will happen

I see that point.

But maybe that's a better way to try and explain it than spending all of yesterday stomping your feet and pounding on the desk and insisting it was all because DJ's comments were from months ago.

Because then, when you get a new interview this morning dated yesterday and he says the same thing, you think....shit.

Committing so hard to the time difference as a reason suddenly looks like a bad play. 

Can some of you English speakers tell me if I'm contradicting myself here.

2014: I plan on eating a burger in 2015.
February 15: I don't plan on eating any burger soon.
February 19: I was thinking about eating one, and I plan on eating a burger.

Thanks!



/jarmo

The fact that two informal quotations can only be reconciled by an examination of the word, ''soon'', tells you something. Yes, they can be reconciled, but I prefer the explanation that they are both falling back on vagueness because of a dearth in information from the central core. It tallies, it actually explains, all of these comments, stretching back to around 2011/2012, the ''we need to sort out the material'' chestnut. It also fits with Bumblefoot's inability to phone management.

Yes, it's vague. But they don't contradict each other.

A lot of people do this. They say they wanna do something. Don't say when or remain vague. Others are very specific and won't say that unless they know they will.


Regarding the material, I think it's true. Judging by what's been said, I don't think there's an issue with not having anything recorded.




/jarmo

I'd have to think its largely done, by now.  My biggest question would be vocals.

Besides the fact that he gives no exact time, Dj's statement isn't very vague. They plan on touring.

Richard.. either he sits on the same information and wants it to be 100% before he wants to say anything publicly. Or, he's a bit out of the loop on the subject. No big deal really, he's been out doing side projects for some time. But, as he said, they're all fully committed to GN'R when the time comes. Hopefully the plan is now to release the stuff they have already recorded.

Great to see DJ doing still doing interviews. Must be hard when you know the inevitable questions are coming.
I actually did have to check the time stamp myself however to see if the interview I was reading was current or not.......
I don't care what anyone says that was polar opposite to what Richard said. 

 ''We were talking'' is a whole lot more vague than, ''we are''. I suppose it rests semantically on your reading of the adjective 'vague''. If you see concrete plans in Ashba's statement, be my guest...

"It looks like we're going to be doing a lot more touring"

He wouldn't say that unless it's based on something.

I'm not saying this is proof of anything being confirmed, but it seems to be in their plans.

It really seems like there is some BIG TIME miscommunication going on between the members. I don't think DJ nor Richard are lying. It seems to me that they don't know what is going on.

OH MY GOD!  I'm sorry guys (mort and DX), but I have no idea what you guys are even arguing about?  Are you guys upset?  Are you suggesting either DJ or Richard don't know what's going on?  Are you pissed at the band because you think Richards and DJ's comments contradict each other?  I honestly don't get it? 

DJ first says he's expecting a lot of touring in 2015. 
Richard then says no touring anytime soon. 
Then DJ says they will be touring. 

I don't understand all the fuss over these comments and find it quite amazing they've drawn this much attention out of you two.  Just because they aren't touring "soon" like Richard said, doesn't mean they aren't touring in 2015.  I believe Richard as I think Axl is focused on putting an album together first (what he mentioned last year).  And I believe DJ because once putting an album out happens, I believe they will tour.  Now maybe DJ expected touring to start sooner because he expected things to move faster, but so what?  Maybe some plans changed....I don't know.  But I think it's pretty clear from these statements and what we've heard over the past year, that they are focusing on an album and it seems like touring will follow.

Why do you guys dissect this shit to death?  I think it's pretty simple.  DX, you come across as someone with some intelligence so I don't get it?  Mort on the other hand I question...  It was like the time Jarmo and I were trying to explain how GNR's management during 2001 and 2002 was the same management and Mort just could not understand for the life of him what we were talking about.  "But 2002, it was Axl who showed up late to a concert...."  wtf... Lol.  ???  I made a comment a couple weeks ago as well that went right over morts head.  What's going on bro?

Yes it does, unless they are planning on doing a lot of touring.  Just not anytime soon.

I am neither 'upset' nor 'pissed' at anything. I am just raising a point about a topical piece for the process of, discussion and dissemination.

Does that make me the unintelligent member of the 'whiner' coalition? Oh well, I have been called much worse things. I freely admit that I have problems understanding Jarmo at the best of times.

If you look at my comments on all this, they are more about the reaction to the comments than the comments themselves.

I don't share the opinion these guys are on the same page.  But I've been focusing more on the folks who are militant and insistent that they match up, and the(at times) absurd lengths they will go to in attempts to explain it all away.  I was trying to get at why that is so paramount. 

I was more interested in some of the reactions around here than the comments themselves.  Because, frankly, unless its Axl talking, its not really worth taking all that seriously.  The rest of these band members don't seem to know shit about shit.   

So now it's absurd to point out that there's no secret conspiracy to lie to you (a joke!) or that they're not contracting each other, because you choose to put that spin on it?




/jarmo

More that I'm unclear why simply pointing out the comments don't match up is a man all battle stations situation.

It seemed to be VERY IMPORTANT that people not see any inconsistency.  And if you had that opinion, you needed to be corrected, and corrected with extreme prejudice.

It was just unacceptable to think that, based on some of the reactions.  I found that equal parts silly and over the top.

How do I explain this to you again? I post what I think, and I have disagree with something, I say so.

I disagree with some of you who go on and on about how these comments are all different and contradicting.


Why? Because:
#1: Dj's comments in 2014 could still apply. He said 2015.shows in 2015 could still happen if you're realistic.
#2: Richard'c comments on no touring soon does not contradict #1. Unless Dj mean in the same time frame as Richard is now talking about. If you assume that, then it's safe to say something changed between #1 and #2.
#3: Dj's latest comments do not give a time frame. Once again, you can spin it and claim he means the exact time frame Richard is talking about. But that's something you're grasping at, it's not exactly apparent if you read the comments.

Now, call that absurd, call me crazy, do whatever. But that's not absurd in my books. More like using common sense and going through what was said without some kind of hubris about finding discrepancies. Free thinking!

 :)

You whine about me pointing it out. I guess that's what keeps you busy.



/jarmo

Hmm, A and B seem inconsistent

- No, they are consistent

Well I think they are inconsistent so let's discuss this in a civilised manner

- Sure

At this point, most sane people merely thrash it out. Usually what happens is one of two things: either one party persuades the other as to their argument, or, both ultimately agree to disagree. It might become an interesting topic, with one or two diversions. But, we are on HTGTH so this happens instead,
 
- Why do you get off on calling them liars

But I have not called them liars

- You are a DJ hater

But I have not expressed any negativity towards DJ, whatsoever

- So you are calling them liars

I repeat, I never called them liars

- why do you come here, you are a negative whiner. Go away.

I am just throwing this question out here. Just ponder on this for a second: considering a lot is said about 'negativity' here, just ask yourself who are the negative people and who are the positive? I have never seen many of the so called 'whiners' launch a barrage of expletives. Just saying.

That?s what I find interesting too.  There?s inability for people to acknowledge that these statements are inconsistent is amazing.  #1 We are touring, #2 We have no plan to tour soon.  One is phrased in the positive and the other in the negative.  They are inconsistent?but man people are really going to absurd lengths to claim they naturally flow from each other.

Why?  It seems like there?s this fiction created where everything must viewed as humming right along, with no hiccups, all as planned.  If not, then you?ll go right to accusing us as calling DJ a liar (interesting you only said we?re accusing DJ of lying?wouldn?t the same hold true for Richard?), which no one has done.

The inconsistencies speak to a larger issue of communication within and between the band.  Ron has discussed this for years (but I guess we discount his (first hand) accounts because he?s now a persona non grata). 

That?s it.  No one?s lying?just that, IMO, no one knows what the fuck?s going on?they?re off touring and recording with their various side projects and maybe the phone will ring in 2015, or maybe the phone will not ring soon, or maybe it will ring.

Ditto.


This is your opinion.  I don't share it.  It happens.

But that was made clear some time ago.  I'm not sure why you keep re-typing it.  If it didn't land the first 5 times, why is the 6th restating of the same premise going to be the big breakthrough?

You, me, and several others here don't share that same fire to make everything appear normal and functional at all times, even if we have to stretch reason to its breaking point.

That's not as important to me, nor I imagine, to you.  If something comes up that makes things seems a little off with this band, we don't need to work overtime to explain how, technically, in a way, if you think about it...its all normal.  Nothing to see here.

Its the basis for a lot of the friction around here, us not having that same prime directive.

In fairness, some of these explanations are wonderful in their artifice. Who would have though Budweiser was funding Chinese Democracy 2?

Of course they are going to do a lot more touring

Fucking hell. For people who are so quick to criticize anything GN'R related, you sure are sensitive about adult language.
Did you buy the clean versions of GN'R albums too?

I had no idea this was such a concern.

Plenty of other people, besides the little clique of a few who show little positivity regarding GN'R, disagree with you on this topic. Funny innit.




It happens, but what also happens is that your idea of a discussion is to ridicule, generalize and claim you don't agree. But you can't say for sure that what I said is wrong. you just refuse to acknowledge it because in your  mind it's a "spin" and you can't have that. Even though you do the same exact thing all the time, spinning and twisting everything to fit the idea of Axl and GN'R that resides in your mind.




Straw man! Spin! Pity party!

I pointed out hat YOU have no clue. YOU assume that Universal magically changed their minds after Chinese came out and paid for everything. Where's the proof of your assumption? Nowhere to be seen. It's just that it fits whatever your idea is. You don't even WANT to entertain the idea that money made on tours, and possibly this commercial, is invested back into GN'R. Because if you did, suddenly your "pointless touring" seems like a pointless comment to make.  :peace:




/jarmo

I think he's saying that the "positive" and "loyal" people seem quicker and far more likely to pepper their stuff with juvenile pissy insults when they get a little hot and bothered.

And despite some of we whiny entitled types being both subjected to them, as well as having all sorts of horrible projections and fallacies thrown our way, we don't respond in kind.  Not in severity, and certainly not in frequency.  Though we are long past within our rights to do so.

You fired one off to me yesterday that was one line : "We know how much you like water sports".

That was it.  That was the entire post.  C'mon, man. 

Its not that I'm offended as much as I'm embarrassed for you when you do that stuff.  It makes you look petty and childish.  Having conviction and arguing a stance is laudable, but losing your cool when your stance isn't landing is not.



I guess I could roll with that.  That you may be right.

But, I may be right too.  Would you be willing to grant the same concession, however?  Based on the emotion in some of your posts thus far on the matter, it doesn't seem so.

You and I disagreeing is not exactly a "stop the presses!" type situation.  But we have a difference of opinion here.  It happens.

Presumably, somewhere along the line in your life, you have run into someone with a different opinion on something.  Is this how you always handle it?  Just attempt to browbeat the person into denouncing their opinion as bullshit and accepting yours as the gospel truth? 

We have differing interpretations of some pretty vauge statements.  Subjectivity all around.  Let's not pretend we are arguing if 2+2 equals 4, here.

You mean like pity party?


No, you don't!
You just tell others to fuck off and go away.



I think I said I didn't know you liked water sports after you made a remark about how I was supposedly torturing you. Hence, it was a response to you. Don't play innocent, no time for your pity party.




It's called a joke. You've yet to make me lose my cool. No matter how much you try to convince yourself of the opposite.

You on the other hand..... Well, people living in glass houses.



I look at both sides, whatever info is available. I don't count your personal spin opinion as a fact.

Just because you say "this contradicts that" doesn't make, whatever conclusion I came to by looking at the actual comments, invalid. Sorry.




/jarmo

One time.  One time in a year and a half I said "go away".  Once.

We had to peel you off the fucking ceiling about it too.  Now imagine if I got that worked up every time you told me I was stupid, a cartoon, a disloyal fan, etc.



You know, this is going to start to ring a lot truer when so many of your posts stop being laced with terms and expressions I use.  Which sometimes are still used, even if talking to other people.  Not a ringing endorsement you don't give me much of a second thought.

And that goes doubly so for the loss of a "karma point" (whatever the hell that even is) I took yesterday when you got annoyed with me in the heat of the moment. 

Your actions don't support your claims on this one, I'm afraid.

So? You did. I don't recall telling you to fuck off.



Not really, but once again, your perception differs from reality.
Yes, you come off as a whiny fan. Those are the cards you dealt me! I had to ASK you guys to say something nice about GN'R, and only then did you manage.
Sorry, that's how you appear. Don't like it? Well, have fun at the one man pity party!




It's funny. I find your over use of select phrases amusing. Because most of them apply to yourself. You just refuse to see it. :D


If you keep posting stupid pointless "I agree" kind of posts and attacks on a person, you'll get warned. Simple as that. Cry about it all you want.


For such an alleged big grown man who's quick to dish out things he doesn't like about GN'R, and self confessed smart ass, you sure can't take any similar comments about yourself.



/jarmo

Well, I'm fairly certain we are boring the folks with our little squabble here, so probably best to move on.

I'm not unhappy with the exchange.  The people will ultimately decide how it went for both of us.

I'm curious now, what are karma points???

We use them as warnings. So we can keep track of who doesn't respect our guidelines here.




/jarmo

I am not over sensitive in the slightest. The reason I bring is up is, you make a big deal about the noun 'negativity'. You claim to avoid negativity in your own life - correct? Well I hate to tell you this but the negative posts here are sure as hell not coming from me, nor anyone else disparaged as a 'whiner'. I mean, if this is a mygnr, ''fuck you'', ''no fuck you and your mother'', type deal, at least admit as much and dispense with the hypocrisy and moral cant.


I never made such a statement.

You know that annoying kid in school who rats on you to the teacher, going ''nah nah nah-nah-nah'', for smashing a window with your footballer. Similar scenario.

How does one get a positive number?  People who are extra respectful?

Negative in this sense, looking for things you don't agree with and focusing on that. At all times.
Being too stubborn to be open to other views than those that live in your head even when you've been proven wrong.
You're guilty of plenty of that.





Really? So I can't generalize and ridicule you the way you try to do the same to me?
But, fact remains, you never explained yourself properly. "I'm not listening to you LA-LA-LA! So whatever you say can't change my mind! LA-LA-LA!". That's you in a nutshell. Yes, a generalization!

This is what happens with you lot. You run away and start making jokes when there's nowhere else to run. Then, it's suddenly about how I'm mean to you guys. My posts are being compared to torture, and I make a joke about it and I'm mean? That's just amazing. :D





Nowhere near. But whatever floats your boat to the pity party island. :)




We vote in the secret meetings held in secret locations where you're not invited. Sorry.  :peace:



/jarmo

The Bizzarro home world?

Where down is up, left is right, and GNR fans have it good.

True, I would not fit in.  Fair enough.

Say what you will, but can't we all just agree that Jason Mamoa looks amazing as Aquaman in Batman v Superman?!

http://cdn.screenrant.com/wp-content/uploads/Batman-V-Superman-Jason-Mamoa-Aquaman-Image.jpg

See? Another one of your veiled insulting "jokes".
And then you cry when I make jokes about you.


The irony of it all is that it's the same handful of people who stand out and the same ones who keep complaining about how I conduct myself. If they're so supportive, positive, regular and average, how come they stand out as whiny "every day is Festivus" kind of fans? Plenty of others don't stand out. Only a handful do. Yet they like us to believe they're like the rest of us.




/jarmo

Nah, give me Vinny Chase.

I do see the point you are making, for the most part.

But just as an aside, what percentage of your posts do you reckon are you talking to these people you are describing?  I'd wager its pretty damn high.

You hate us but you love us, you know?

Hahaha...Someone had to say it.

Agreed.  Very much looking forward to BvS and the JL and stand-alone Aquaman movies now.  A refreshing take on the character visually.

Ali

Yup.  People poo-pooed Man of Steel for being too dark & violent, but as a comic fan, I was quite happy to see new life breathed into old Supes, and am very excited to see Snyder expand his vision for the DC universe onscreen.  And c'mon, who doesn't want to see Batman & Superman duke it out onscreen?

Why don't you start by be the big man you claim to be and apologize for being such a hypocrite? You spend all this time today complaining about how I made a mean joke as a response to your comparison between torture and my posts. Now, what do you do? More of the same.

Lead by example, and apologize.
All this just means your complaints regarding my conduct will ignored in the future. Your own doing.  : ok:


Regarding movie talk- > The Jungle.
Thanks.



/jarmo

The one brief scene they showed where he is running down the boardwalk in his tux and dives in the water, I remember thinking...man, I kind of want to see that movie.

Sorry, I figured since this topic was being utterly derailed, we could at least discuss something interesting.  ::)

If the water sports line was in response to my waterboarding joke, I guess I can't get too upset about it.  Its pretty much the same thing.  So yeah, I apologize.

Of course, I'm also bookmarking this post.  Beeeeleeeeeeedat.

But Jarmo, you have to see the other point I made (which you ignored), no?

When I see you are the last post in the thread, I pretty much have a 1 in 5 chance of knowing who's post you have quoted and responded to.  Because its always one of the same people, the very people you seem to think are a virus.

You see this, right?

Umm, that ship has sailed. The irony of the situation is that you complain about how mean I was to you, in reality I only said that as a response to something you said. After the complaint was dealt with, you once again feel the need to post a veiled insult.

You just couldn't let it be. And still didn't apologize for that. Actions, not words.


Regarding who or what I reply to. Yes, I often respond to the silly claims made by this handful of (in their own minds) regular supportive fans. They post a lot of shit I just can't relate to.



/jarmo

So you ask for an apology, I give you one, and you tell me the ship has sailed.

Whatever, dude.  Like it would have mattered anyway.  But I still tried.



So you seek out daily conversations with people you can't relate to, at the expense of people of like mind that post here every day that you totally ignore.

Well, that makes a lot of sense.

 :rofl:

You apologized for the wrong fucking thing. That was the "issue" point!
You just showed what a hypocrite you are. Complaining about a joke that was a direct response to your insult, and then once that was dealt with, you fire back with another veiled insult. You stay classy!



Do you want me to repeat myself again? How many times does it take to make poor you comprehend that I respond to things I either find bullshit, wrong or interesting (this one's not applicable to you)?
I thought I had made this clear a number of times. No?

It's part of having a discussion! Something you claim to be interested in, yet often act the opposite.
I'm beginning to think that you're not really interested in discussions after all.




/jarmo

Stinson's 'out of a loop'.

http://www.wmmr.com/shows/matt-cord/blogentry.aspx?BlogEntryID=10669552

Basically confirms my hypothesis.

That when nothing is going on with GN'R, there's no news to share with the band members who are out touring with their other bands?



/jarmo

That, they are 'out of the loop'.

Hm, he did say he was out of a loop, and "that's the cyclical event there".

"Do you know if there will be a new Replacements album?"

"Oh, that's the million dollar question. I know nothing man."


In case you couldn't tell, he gave a non answer. Same thing he did when he was asked about The Replacements. I think he was just referring to how Guns works in cycles, and how right now he's in one of the phases where he can have free time to do what he wants. Whatever Guns is doing right now, he doesn't want to talk about it. Perhaps for the same reasons he doesn't want to talk about the New Replacement album.

I think he means he is ''out of the loop'' - exactly what he stated.

Quotes don't exist in a vacuum bud. Please don't make me illustrate why taking quotes out of context is silly, you should know better. Or maybe you are right and he really doesn't know what is going on with GNR or the new Replacements album. Sometimes when I don't want to talk about something I say "I don't know about that". Ever done it?

Honestly, this concoction of people not knowing what is going on with their own band is a pretty hard sell for me. Maybe he really doesn't know, but I think there's a better chance that he knows than doesn't know. Just based off of common sense.

He said ''and Guns, I am not sure what is going on with that - I am kinda out of a loop on that a little bit''. It is about as transparent as you can get! Why create a complicated fudge when none exists.

Well Mortis, I don't agree but I'm not gonna keep the argument going because I've already made my point. And you know, I could be wrong. Maybe he has no idea what is going on with Guns. No fuckin' clue, no idea, no nothin', doesn't even have Axl's phone number, and if he does, Axl aint talkin'. But that just sounds like more of the same old weird 24/7 around the clock anti GNR conspiracy shit to me.

I think he it was more a non answer , trust me he knows about the issues with Ron, and I'm sure hes abreast with Axl and what hes doing, and this wasn't the venue nor the type of interview to go into those issues, it was a brief talk about the fact that they are playing in Philly, bottom line,a quick here is what we(The Replacments are doing)  not the fucking inquisition of Tommy, for shits sake Mortis, you really are on another fucking plane.lol

Why would Tommy know about any of that stuff? It's none of his business.  :hihi:

Why is it such a bizarre theory, that the communication is poor from management? Ron has mentioned communication problems before in the past,


http://www.glidemagazine.com/119059/ron-bumblefoot-thal-guns-n-roses-interview/

If somebody says they are 'out of the loop', I can only presume they are, 'out of the loop'! I have to take the guy at his word!

Seriously?

You're just looking for things that you want to be there.

Right now, there's not a lot going on in the GN'R world. Tommy's focusing on the Replacements. What kind of information does he need from GN'R right now to make you happy?
"Hey, Tommy! We don't have any shows booked for any time soon. Ok?".

I'm sure he'll be in the loop as soon as something's going on. In the mean time, keep looking for clues.



Regarding your evidence. Sometimes you get an offer to do a gig, or gigs, and you take it. It's not the first time GN'R did something on short notice. 



/jarmo
 

In that kind of situation, I don't see why he wouldn't say "Hey guys I got these serious medical issues so I can't play, should have told me sooner, sorry." What was Axl going to say? "YOU WHAT? MEDICAL ISSUES!?!?!?!? GET OUT OF MY BAND YOU DISPOSABLE SON OF A BITCH!"

Clearly an issue like that (a fucked up spine), if brought up directly and clearly, is not going to be ignored. My dad got hurt at work recently. The law protects him quite a bit, he isn't able to be fired or forced to work during the time that he is hurt. This is America man, Axl is not Kim Jong Il.

Well this place is always good for a laugh. Hope you all have a nice Monday tomorrow.

I do not 'want' them (communication problems) to be there: I merely believe they are, there.

You avoided the question.

If you go on holidays, and you're out of the loop regarding your work place. Does that mean there's a communication problem? Not necessarily. You're on holidays!




/jarmo

True but it is an opinion I hold based on, accumulative evidence.

Obviously even when the so called evidence doesn't add up.
In other words, you don't need evidence.



/jarmo

I have already given you another Ron interview.

Besides the one I replied to you about already?

As I said, these two cases have nothing in common. Even using that old Ron interview to prove your point is a stretch. It wasn't the first, or only, time GN'R have announced shows on a short notice.
In addition to that, the fact is that the tour wasn't a "three week tour, or four weeks" with "another three weeks of shows". The tour was in February and March 2012. It was four weeks in total.




/jarmo

You are defending the policy of a management who obviously have the guitarist in the current position he is now, probably out of the band, over just such a wonderful policy! If it is 'happiness in paradise' as you claim, the onus is certainly on you here to prove it so.

I guess I'm in the minority here, since I don't blame management for the issues this band faces.

The thing is though...I love the new lineup. But the idea was it's supposed to be a band. Guns N' Roses is supposed to be GN'R, a band, right? Not Axl and a bunch of employees working under him. Usually a band is a group of guys on the same level with things. Not just one guy making the plans uniltarily and then telling the others "this is what we're doing." Like I doubt Mick Jagger books dates and then tells Keith and Keith "Ok, we're touring on these dates, be there, thanks."

I image the job offer went like this.

You can play *instument*. We like your work.
We will make you rich and you will get exposure
Band management decides ALL other aspects
Accept YES/NO

Instead of once again trying to ridicule what I said, just prove that I'm wrong.
I pointed out that your evidence has factual errors and your other evidence isn't even evidence. There you go.



Mick has more control than you think.




/jarmo

Jarmo, what I have bolded is evidence that the communication between the management and members is woeful,


http://www.glidemagazine.com/119059/ron-bumblefoot-thal-guns-n-roses-interview/

There is no way you can spin your way out of that.

The dates don't add up.

In 2012, they started their tour on Feb 10th.  Their show in Philly was on Feb 27th (about 2 weeks later).

They did 6 more shows, over 2 more weeks (ending March 12th).

Their next show in 2012 was on May 11th, in Russia.

Their last show in 2011 had been Dec 31, 2011.

What he's saying doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

In addition, here's the report from his car accident (I'm assuming this is the one) from June of 2011:

http://www.popeater.com/2011/06/03/bumblefoot-survives-car-crash/

And with humor intact -- on Thursday (June 2), he tweeted, "Medical checkup this morning, don't seem to have any major issues other than a hairy back and a funny voice...," attaching a link to a YouTube clip of Metallica's song 'Whiplash.'

He said this in other articles, more recently after the crash:

He added: ?SUV just ploughed into me at full speed. My car is totalled and two other cars she smashed me into. I?m well enough to tweet, which means I?m not dead yet.?

The guitarist spent yesterday arranging a rental car and filing his insurance claim, saying: ?I?ve spent 24 hours dealing with car rental, insurance and collision folks, banks and police ? as the injuries begin to reveal themselves.?

Responding to well-wishers he added: ?Oh, please ? I?m in Guns n?fucking Roses. This is all like a walk in the park!?

We are not discussion the dates though, we are discussing communication.

Um...but if the dates are wrong, and the content of the interview was wrong, and his recollection is incorrect (or, worse, hyperbole)..there was no communication breakdown to be had.  If he had meds for 4 weeks, and the tour was 4 weeks long...what was there to communicate, exactly?

Again, if the dates don't add up....as a basis for showing a "lack of communication"....it doesn't hold up very well.

And yes, I know that, on 2/21/12, they announced an extension of that theater tour.

I question whether, given Ron's "mis-remembering" of everything else in that interview (dates, duration, etc), that he was not told about it til that moment. If he's "mis-remembering", or engaging in hyperbole, in just about EVERYTHING else he says there...why is that bit still credible, exactly?

It?s not hard for me to fathom a lack of communication between the band members themselves, or band members and management.
I?d be far more surprised to hear that they are all on the same page.

DJ has been in the band 6 years, without a note of original GN?R music to his credit.
To put that in perspective, the classic lineup managed their entire discography in 6 years.

Maybe there was some great master plan at one point, but clearly it?s been misplaced.
Maybe it?s in the ?vault? along with UYI III, CD II & III, but they forgot the combination.
Or maybe the plan was to become solely a touring act, in which case, only Bumblefoot seems to have been misinformed.
The others seem content aboard the gravy train.

I'm sure there are mis-steps and issues that crop up.  I doubt it's all smooth sailing, rainbows, and unicorns. I'm SURE there are communication issues between everyone involved. And I'm sure, when they occur, like with all communication issues, there is blame to be doled out to all involved.

I don't think communication issues with management are a huge "causal" issue, though.

If the dates are wrong, then it puts a serious doubt in my mind how much of the entire statement is credible or believable.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was trying to get across. :)

Or maybe you don't know the plan and this entire statement is uneducated and uninformed speculation.

or maybe I do know, but you don?t know that I know, in turn making your statement about my statement uneducated and uninformed speculation.

In that case, I'd invite you to share your qualifications, your experience, and "the plan" with the rest of us, so we can discuss it.

If you're going to "big time" someone, and say "maybe you know".....then do it right.

Otherwise....I think we all pretty much assume that the poster on the other side of the keyboard is a "normal joe".  Which means Emily's post is pretty much relevant.

And yours, unless you're willing to provide context, isn't.

Would probably be fun to formulate a hypothetical GN'R business plan, but best I refrain.
Just a little levity, Pilferk.
Clearly went over like a lead balloon, so my apologies for the lackluster material/delivery.
I confess, I am not an insider.

Thing's always change... that's important to remember around here...

I knew you were going for a joke.. but I am familiar with ur post's.

Sorry...my fault.

Sometimes sarcasm and humor are tough to figure out in prose...especially when you've read similar stuff, from OTHER posters, who deliver it with complete sincerity.

Gotta know the room. ;)

Here...there...in life..in general.

:)

So true...Just more frequently with GNR stuff  :)

I already replied!




Factual error!

Tommy focusing on the Replacements at the moment and GN'R being on hiatus with no scheduled shows, what do you expect?



/jarmo

I agree.

I suppose it is a sure sign that a person is not, politically correct (around here), when he can be accused of 'lying'; Ron has stepped from The Truman Show and into to the real world. He has lost his Axl invulnerability cloak and is therefore, open to all manner of accusations.

First up, that interpretation is, quite frankly, you trying to bolster your own POV (of the band and of the forum)...not necessarily reality.  The change in perception, regarding Ron, can be directly attributed to his recent comments and perceived unprofessionalism. No?

Second, Nobody accused him of anything.

The facts are the facts. He was either incorrect, or he was engaging in hyperbole.

Right?

What other options are there?

So, you're left with that lens to view all of it.  If a LOT of it is demonstrably and incorrectly remembered, or exagerated (it doesn't really matter which), it calls into question ALL of it.

You can't just pick the pieces that support your point of view, and figure THOSE are the truths, and the "other pieces" are the innaccuracies.  The truth is..you don't know.

Sort of true.

Talking about Ron like this as recently as one year ago would never be tolerated.

Ok. Yet another spin! Nobody said he lied. It was pointed out that your "evidence" contained a factual error and that it was not the first time GN'R announced shows on a short notice.

Why don't you explain how a tour that's about four weeks in total can go from three-four weeks and then allegedly having an additional three weeks of shows added to it. That would make the tour six-seven weeks in total.
What tour is this?

You still did not respond to anything I said. Simply put, you ignore it because it's not convenient for your agenda that you're pushing here.





/jarmo

That might be more a reflection on Ron's recent comments, and less a reflection on the forum, itself.

YMMV.

My concern was never the itinerary to begin with. I will take your word for it Jarmo.


Ron is currently entering the abyss to be greeted by his compatriots, Slash and Buckethead. He is like Superman when he was stripped of his special powers and had to live as a normal human. How will Ron cope without complex webs of HTGTH penned apologia shielding from every possible mistake or failing? Tune in next week..

But isn't that the very thing mortismurphy is saying?

Ron's comments have cost him the favored status and protection one gets around here being a member in good standing.

There are any number of anti-DJ threads that could be made, pretty much on any given day.  But make one of those and see how long it lasts.

No, it's not.  He's saying it's a reflection of the forum and that there was "protection"....as you imply, above.

I'm saying it's a reflection of the man, himself. That the "protection" never existed in the way you're implying...there just wasn't enough legit material to "go after" him, prior to this.

There is a big difference.

As for Anti-DJ threads....of what type?  "I don't like him, I think he's a poser, he's not very talented, he's not Slash"?  Yeah, not surprised.

Has he, himself, made comments that paint himself as unprofessional/etc?  Those are getting deleted? I guess I've missed them....

Well, he had a Twitter post just last week looking to fight big bad mean people on the internet.  Made him seem 13 years old.

Um, yup. I'd say the worst you can say is that he's an idealist, based on that tweet/fb post.  And, for what it's worth, I largely agree with his POV.  The net can be, especially for public figures, a big internet scum bucket with a bunch of morons who wouldn't say a lot of the shit they do face to face. And I don't see DJ looking to fight them...I see him commenting on the fact that, were those folks to spout off to EVERYONE the way they do on the net..they'd likely get their teeth handed to them in "the real world".  I think that's a pretty common sentiment (and one I've seen echoed in various places).  So...um...not sure how that's relevant.

I get that it might offend certain fans, with certain types of points of view, who might not like it. Just like some previous Axl posts offended those folks. But, by and large, I don't think those threads ("I feel targeted by DJ") are all that relevant to the band.  They're relevant to YOU (edit: Meaning, the global "YOU" who feel targeted, not any specific "YOU")....

SO, that being said...I'm not sure that's worthy of an "anti-DJ" thread.  It doesn't paint him as unprofessional. It doesn't reflect poorly on his placement in the band. It paints him as a guy who doesn't like the constant bullshit, complaining, and, yes, whining directed his way. 

And..that pretty much makes my point for me.  There is a STUNNING difference between a FB diatribe against internet trolls, and your feelings toward them...and Ron's recent statements.

So your concern is that GN'R added more shows to the tour without consulting one of the guitar players?
This is the same guy who ranted about that surprise show in France in 2012. Nobody else went on a Twitter rant about it.... Then it turns out that he enjoyed it.  :)




/jarmo

The Jarmo of 2013 would have banned your ass.

You've got a statement full of demonstrable inaccuracies surrounding the itinerary, timeline, etc.  

You also have earlier statements that directly contradict parts of that statement (re: his health and the severity of his back injury), calling into question THOSE parts.

You have other parts of the statement are of indeterminate accuracy.

So, how do you know the parts of the statement that are of indeterminate accuracy are, in fact, accurate?

Therefore, the itinerary discussion is relevant, and SHOULD be a concern.

Point being: It's not great evidence to support an argument of a lack of communication. Or at least not a lack by the bands management.

RON'S communication skills, maybe......

Are you gonna address the issue or not? This is typical you. Run away!


People get frustrated, tired, whatever and say things. Then look back and go "hey, that was actually fun!". These things happen.
The fact that you use these kinds of comments as evidence proves a few things. You're obviously looking for reasons to dislike management.


By the way, the 2013, or 2015 Jarmo has no problem banning you. :)
And I don't know how you would know that considering your decade long exile between 2004 and 2014. Unless...



/jarmo

Really? Because he didn't ban anyone, that I can recall, when that discussion cropped up in 2012.

I think a couple threads got deleted, and a couple more got consolidated...but I don't recall anyone being banned.

Funny....I can't recall the last person who was banned over a topic, recently.....

Can I be frank?

I think he's looking for just that..to garner his "martyr" badge.  More and more, it seems that way.

But, that's JHMO.

Relax, it was a joke.

It was not anything to do with any contradictions in the itinerary - as I said, I will take your word for it. If you want to discuss 2013 tours, you are arguing with the wrong guy.

Yeah....not really that funny. Or ironic. Or sarcastic. Again, sometimes it's hard to ferret out humor in prose when you see that stuff posted, seriously, over and over again.

As an aside: D-X is better at that stuff.....

I am sure you are correct.

I got that. You're saying that the fact that the band extended their tour with some shows. without asking one of the guitar players, proves there's miscommunication. I just don't agree.

Because GN'R has done this before, and after that. It happens. Most people here actually love those surprises.

In July 2006 in London, Axl announced a gig later that night at a club in London. They did an acoustic show in Paris in 2010. There's the NYC shows in 2010 as well. Moscow 2010....

Even last year, they announced the last two Brazilian shows after all the others....




/jarmo
 

Hey, thanks man.

See, THATS a joke!

 :rofl:

You have zero wit

You have the worst humour

Why do you keep posting on  fan site designed to. ..;;;;;    Ya forget it


Why the moderators let you post is beyond me.   

When every comment you have is negative. Not funny.  Has nothing to better the present band. Has no worth in really responding too.  Other in the $1.99, worthless thoughts of a guy who couldn't even respond to to the the last gnr album.....   When it was released.  But seems to feel fit to respond to it 10 years later.    ...?

...??   It matters like a phone call I never answered 10 years ago...   Know one cares

What do you expect me to say to this?

Did Ron not once come on here and protest that Jarmo not make him out like a liar?? Something about equipment.

Yes.

It was for the surprise show in St Tropez. I thought he had at least one of his guitars with him for the show, but he said it was a rental one.

Anyway, I didn't agree with him about that Twitter rant back in 2012 as I pointed out back then.
You can tell that out to anyone who thinks I've changed.

Of course those people weren't here back then, so they just assume I changed because it fits that idea in their minds. Once again, don't let facts bother you! ;)
Edited to add: This mortismurphy character used to post here in 2004, then he was gone for about a decade and resurfaced last year.



/jarmo

Mortis Murphy, AKA Diesel Daisy on MYGNR if I'm not mistaken? I, can't,think of, anyone, else, that, uses, commas, like, this. If you two aren't the same guy I would be really surprised (please correct me if I'm wrong). If there's one thing I agree with Mort on, it's that Neil Young is the shit. And actually, I never checked out Neil Young before he was brought up here so I do have Mort to thank for that.


That was too good!

He visits two forums to whine and voice his endless complaints? What a dreary miserable little person he must be.

I liked the Frank joke too, that is humor :D

Wow.

That's a big claim to make to not even be sure about.

Never seen an accusation about being someone else go well.

Interesting that he's on another site so much that he's comparing the grammatical tendencies of posters to people here.  If overuse of commas is all the "evidence" you got, I'd say it's pretty flimsy.  And why call a person out in the first place?  Trying to boost your online image?  Where have I heard that before?

The amount of gnr inter forum bs is amazing...

I decided I didn't care for msl's site and politely wished them well...and I got blasted for it..

Truth is I just didn't care for the way people interacted there...I wasn't trying to insult anybody. Same goes with mygnr which is why I have always came here to post

It's just a rock band...that I like to discuss..people take this shit too seriously...

And even if this accusation about mortis is true...who the hell cares..why go there? Just ignore his posts ...I do...

Not me I am afraid. The only other forums I post on now are two Neil Young forums, and occasionally the (official) Queen forum. Ain't it cool once in a blue moon. I did post on gnronline and was also a member of the DnB list. I think I posted under, murphy or some variant of my second name.

Too bad you were gone when things were happening. Judging by your posting history, you were gone for over a decade between 2004 and last year!

No wonder you seem so bitter. You missed probably the most exciting era of the band since the early 1990s!




/jarmo

A lot of interest in me!

It just gets weird.

Because when you finally say it, you've already been thinking it for a bit.  So you are pretty sure, at least, in your own mind.

The other person is obviously going to deny it.

Where does it go from there?  Do you double down as the accuser, making you look a little too committed?  Try and joke it away?

Next thing you know, its 3 pages later.  And everyone is uncomfortable.

With this community, I see a lot of the same names on all boards. 

I always pegged us as people who pretty much are who they are.

The only name changers tend to be the banned.

Woo-hoo!!  Represent, son!

What ever happened to Jeff?  Did he ever make to any of these boards?  Anyone know?

Yeah, funny coincidence don't you think? Ten years gone and there you are again! Just in time to complain when things quieted down!




I don't remember seeing him on message boards.




/jarmo

This is the only one that I check out and participate in. I've been reading this message board since it first began. It was this, Jeff's website, OnlineOnslaught, Scoops wrestling, and NY Giants football when I was in college. Now I don't have the time so I only check this one for Guns news.

When did you say I joined? 2004? Active year.

Touche/

 :smoking:

So with every over the to comment you make.  You question this posters comment with a


Wow

Like you are so shocked someone said something?


Get over yourself

I am glad you are picking up on this. 

The guy cone sternly complains about the albums CD.

But during the time the album was released.  He was a registered user of this forum.  But had nothing to say for nearly ten years....

I am not one to say anything negative. 

Really..

But if you are in jail.   Locked up and getting it.....     I really don't care what you have to say. 

And either does bubba

So this is another post where you talk about how you post at other forums?

Do you know a guy name Steve?,....

He owes me 20

Get over yourself.    And your pathetic talking about how you post at other forums. 

It's not all about you.

I am glad you are picking up on this. 

The guy cone sternly complains about the albums CD.

But during the time the album was released.  He was a registered user of this forum.  But had nothing to say for nearly ten years....

I am not one to say anything negative. 

Really..

But if you are in jail.   Locked up and getting it.....     I really don't care what you have to say. 

And either does bubba

Lol

Don't make me say it one more time

I think Jeff is working as a sports photographer now

Jeff posted to the alt.gnr newsgroup in the 90s

This Bacon chap makes no sense and is not a poster I've seen until recently. I know grammar is something we don't mention...but really!

Well, just a reflection on how you didn't post during any of those years when the band was doing exciting things.
Maybe there's a personal reason for this, or not. But it's ironic that you just pop out when GN'R is on a hiatus.




/jarmo

It depends.  I registered here many moons ago, but didn't start posting until 2013.

Reasons were twofold.  One, I had sort of believed all the horrible things I heard about this place.  And to while I have not found anywhere near the level of censorship I was led to believe goes on here, the fact is that when I did sign up here, I think 4 of my first 5 posts were deleted outright.  So I bounced. 

Reason I eventually wandered over here, censorship or no, was that the two other GNR forums I was at basically totally gave up discussing the current situation in any serious way.  Not that I don't have some laughs at those other places, but they look at you a little askew when you try to ask a serious question or start a new topic.  Because they operate under the mindset this is all a joke anymore and discussing it in real world terms is a waste of time.

I don't know what mortismurphy's deal was, exactly.  But I'm not sure we need to go all in on the sleeper agent theory.

Bacon likes to have a cocktail or two...

His posts are structured like a ransom note and the content is the equivalent of a late night drunk dial.

At least lately.  Not sure what's going on there.

Yeah, it's really weird.  I guess one way to handle it is to not address it and hope the storm passes.

Is it really that big of a deal to say I thought he was someone else? Their attitudes seem pretty much in alignment. I noticed they had a similar writing style a while back, it's more than just the commas. It's not like I'm confusing Mr T for Hulk Hogan here, if those two aren't the same guy then they should be friends. But yeah, you guys are right that a claim like that can't really go anywhere. Even if it was him, there would be no way to prove it. I wasn't planning on pushing the issue, I just figured if the two were the same guy and the dude had some balls he might come out and admit it, and that would have been interesting.

I read every GNR forum from time to time because quite frankly, I am an obsessed fan. It was something I wondered about right away... "Is this guy and Mortis Murphy the same guy?" a long time ago.

Anyway I guess the claim doesn't go anywhere from there. If he was the guy then it would be more obvious where he is coming from. But why he would admit that, I have no clue and that's the part I didn't think through. But I like all the "OH MY GOD I CAN'T BELIEVE HE DID THAT". Oh no, my internet reputation is ruined forever. If you two truly aren't the same guy, then my apologies, btw.

I don't do anything for my online reputation's sake. I am just tired of you guys (in particular DX and Mortis Murphy, but Ginger is annoying too). I would be able to take you a lot more seriously if you weren't on here 24/7 pushing the same old shit over and over. Give it a fucking rest, Jesus Christ. I'm not the only one with this opinion. But you know, that's just my two cents. I'm sure I have my online etiquette downfalls as well. I can hear it now, "click click click fuck you redneck rudy". Happy posting to you.

I don't have any beef with you, rudy.  Never got the vibe any of those other fellas do either.

Just as an aside, isn't it a bit quizzical that the people around here who get the absolute worst shit said both about them and to them directly never seem to respond in kind or get angry with anybody?

Are you kidding me? I am no angel, but don't go pretending you are. It's not that I have a beef with you. It's just that I have to deal with you all the time, no matter how you look at it. How am I going to ignore your posts when half of the thread consists of your posts?

It's like living in a house where your roommate never leaves. There are signs of him everywhere. Even when you go to your room, he is playing loud music. You just can't escape the guy. It's overwhelming sometimes. But then what am I doing telling you that? It's not really my place. If Jarmo allows it, then I guess that's just the way it is. We are both living in his house after all. He is a nice guy, I have that to say about him. And patient.

There are any number of posters here that have never even addressed me.  Nor I, them.

And the reason for that is pretty cut and dried.  Neither of us has any real interest in what the other person is saying.  Makes sense, right?

But then we have your situation.  Not only are you not interested, which is simple enough.  But in addition to not having interest, you don't agree with what I'm saying, what I'm saying makes you visibly angry, and you don't like or respect me in any way.  I would peg myself (or anyone else you have labeled a troublemaker, dissident, all around piece of shit, etc.) as just about the last people in the world you would pay attention to, no?

Your post reminds me of the guy that calls the talk radio station and complains about the topic being discussed.  Is that a great use of your phone call?  Or might you be better served introducing a new topic or pushing things in what you deem a more interesting direction?

Just some thoughts.

Jarmo I was working abroad off-and-on for four years of that and only had access to the internet sporadically. I used to check HTGTH for updates but was too busy to post.

Also when did I join? 2003? 2004? That was a hiatus. Probably many people have joined gnr forums when the band has been on hiatus. GNR have had a lot of hiatuses.

Why do you have to deal with any of us?  It?s quite simple to just ignore our posts, unlike your smelly roommate blaring Nickleback.  And, for the record, I don?t have any issue with you at all.  I think you?re a bit effusive in your praise for CD and the current state of Guns n Roses?but whatever.  We all can?t agree on everything. 

I do find it interesting that your solution for people who annoy you is for them to stop posting.  Do you want this place to just be full of Happy Chris Day, like-minded people who think every year is the greatest the band?s ever had, and that it?s obviously only going to get better?  Would be kind of boring, IMO.

Fair enough. Just ironic that you kinda "missed out" on that decade.




Sometimes it seems like that's what some want. They want to be able to spread their negative digital diarrhea without any consequences whatsoever. "Don't like it? ignore it!" is the solution. Guess what, it's not. Ignoring it won't make the crap go away and after a while the whole place will stink!




/jarmo

Now you, I sort of understand.  At least, to a point.

As a shaper of the band message and general caretaker of the site's direction, I can see why you would have motivation to engage people you don't like.  That's the job, as you see it.

Of course, with you, what I don't get is why such people are the ONLY ones you seem to talk to.  I can get why you think its your duty to "correct the record", but I'm a bit confused why its not mixed in with conversations with other people from whom never is heard a discouraging word.

I did not miss out on it though. I was active on gnronline until it was pulled. This was around the time Oh My God came out? 99ish? Then there was another place a few people went but I cannot for the life of me remember the name. It was ran by an Argentinean guy I think. I did not post much there. I remember the Rio 3 leaks and 2002 tour. Then 2004ish I was working abroad a lot. You have to remember though that I saw the band four times and bought cd on the day of release during this period. It is not like I suddenly ditched the band because they were producing the goods.

I don't post just "I agree". Waste of time. Unless I got something to add, I'll rather not post than just add "I agree".
Disagreeing on the other hand, there's often a reason to why, which is what I post.



What I meant was that you missed the online discussions during that era.
Who knows, maybe things would've been more to your liking back then. On the other hand, since you came back, it's been one long whine fest.... Unfortunate.



/jarmo

Ah.  That makes sense, I suppose.

Bingo! I agree with something else Jarmo said a while back about how he can't see why any fan would stand for this kind of shit. I'm not going to drag this out, I don't have time for the whole forum warrior thing, but Jarmo summed it up real well. This place gets stinky quick. I wish my roommate would stop eating so many damn chili dogs and shitting himself on the couch. I don't dislike any of you guys, I'm sure if we met at a concert or in person we'd have a blast, but come on already. Shits getting old. There has to be something better to do with your time.

 :peace:

I agree with the poster above. I don't post much anymore, but i visit this forum at least once a day to see if there is any news or interesting discussions. Every time there is an interesting topic the thread is usually filled up with shit.. same old boring criticism of this or that.

I can totally understand that some fans want music from GNR. I am also a Tool fan, so.. my two favorite bands don't release music very often. Its kinda interesting how Tool get this quality stamp by taking their time in writing and recording new stuff, wile GNR fans freak out and act like everything  the band/Axl/Management does is wrong.

I don't argue that i understand everything that happens in the GNR world. I know things can be a bit weird sometimes. But i guess thats just how thing works. But to read about how people think things should be does not interest me at all. I don't care what people think about Team Brazil, how many times DJ has used the same quote and overanalyzing twitter messages. I care about the music we have, i like reading good interviews and have discussions about music, shows and other music related stuff. When we get information and news about things thats awesome. So please stick to the subject in the topic. Drop all the nonsense criticism and drama! Its just not interesting reading.

This sounds noble, in theory.

But how can you deny that if we only talked about new things that happen, there would be days, weeks, months...and yes, sometimes actual entire years, where there would be no posts here.

I get what you are saying, really I do.  But I think your purity test on posting leads to a ghost town for stretches of time, sometimes, long ones.

Can you get through an entire year like 2005 just by talking about how much we like all 'Rocket Queen'?  Jarmo himself just said today he doesn't find "I agree" posting all that constructive. 

I think the point is they're ok with that as long as it means no objective negative posts.

To be clear. I don't have anything against people who are frustrated or have negative views on thing, it simply just don't interest me anymore. Im not against "objective" or "negative" posts. Its just how this place is flooded with the same old same old same old same old same old over and over again. Yeah! There are things i think is weird to. If i was Axl i would probably throw the fans a bone a bit more often, just to calm them down or give them something to discuss or wait for. Im all for objectivity so don't try to label me as I'm not Ginger King. But do we have to have the same criticism flooding every fucking thread in here? Can we have at least a couple of thread were people don't start attacking each other because of discussions and personal agendas made in under other topics?

Im with Nytunz in pretty much everything. Pretty much all thread , look at this one what are we doing, ?  We certainly aren't discussing the topic at hand. Much of the same old , same old, has a place its called dead horse, where you can go on and on and on over the same old , there are plenty of threads there that are actually about a lot of the stuff that gets brought up time and again in all these threads. And so beit if there are less posts, seems most times its just to hear yourselves typing that most  everyone else gets to read, or in my case and some others rather not read,as so much of it has been talked to death.Anyone remotely new who may come around, as there are young people out there that are just getting into GNR etc, and music in general are probably scared shit to say anything cause all they see is thread after thread of negative crap. Or at the very least thread after thread of complaints and moaning, sure way to turn off any person thinking about maybe joining in a discussion of a band they may want to know about.

So what?

Seriously...so what if the forum is silent?

I don't feel, or see, the need to create content simply to create it.

Sorry, the "if there wasnt negativity, there would be nothing" argument you've made before just rings hollow to me. It seems like a lame attempt at justification.

Just say "cause i feel like it".

One mans objective is another mans subjective, here.

Sorry, Ginger...its hard to label anything posted, from either side of any of these "arguments", as objective. I'm sure you think it is..but you have to know you are viewing it through your own bias.

 I'm sure you see your side as "realistic"...but I think its fair to say, in lots of cases, there are different interpretations of "realistic".

I go to Big Blue View for NY Giants news after reading the message board here. The admin of that board gets Giants news and he has an in with the Giants front office and coach. Does he he allow negative posts on his websites? Yep, he does. The message board this past season was brutal. You think what gets posted here is bad and negative. Check out some of the posts from this season when the Giants were terrible and you'll see what I'm talking about. What DX, Ginger King, Jaeball  and Mortis says here is nothing compared to the negativity of what when on there.

Opposing viewpoints are fine.  Not everything in life is going to be hunky dory. You actually need an opposing viewpoint to improve upon yourself and work at things.  

They were soooooo terrible this year. Glimmers of hope that maybe, finally, they were "getting" the new offense at the end of tHe year....but they need help, and fast.

And.....i don't mind opposing viewpoints. They do make things interesting. BUT, rehashing the same things over and over, and reading the exact same reasoning/points/stories over and over....it does get boring. The umpteenth time we rehash "the name game", amongst pretty mch the same posters, saying the same things.....blech!

You're once again using the age old excuse, that objectivity is labeled as negativity.

The truth is, these so called objective fans, are as biased as anybody else. Just because you label the whining (yes, I used the W word there, don't get offended) as objective, or as an honest opinion, doesn't mean it's not negative. It doesn't mean it's not based on a negative view point of a person with an agenda.

It just seems like some of these people are truly too concerned with how they are viewed by strangers on the Internet. Gotta stay "objective"! What for? They're posting on fucking fan sites!
Are they trying to win the Pulitzer prize?




/jarmo

Hey hey hey I might voice my displeasure with something business related with the band once in a while... But I like the current band ! So don't lump me in with Mortis ! Ha

Lol. I hear ya. I like the current band as well. It is the business side that I'm not thrilled with along with maybe one or two songs like Scraped and Rhiad.. Pilferk, Giants will be fine next season. Spags is back coaching the D. 

Kind of defeats the point of a message board forum, no?

I'm seriously asking.  What is the point of a forum where a whole day goes with no posts?

Who benefits?

Hey, I'm a Rams fan.  Spags can eat a dick. 

Not just a bad head coach, even the D wasn't anything to write home about.

So when nothing is new....you continuesly bitch about the same things?  I have an idea...if it's slow in the GNR world, do something else! 

Sort of legit here.  I do see what you are going for.

But I think you go a little far with it.  If you accept the premise that simply not being Johnny Sunshine all the time means you live to be negative, then it works.

But as I said, that's a bit far to take it.  Maybe some people just aren't Johnny Sunshine.  No ulterior motive.



This point, however, doesn't make much sense.

Even if I were to accept your premise everyone you disagree with is simply looking to score sort of cool points (and for the record, I very much do not accept that premise) your logic is flawed.

In terms of appearances or cool points with GNR fandom as a whole, none of we supposed dissidents are gaining any stature with the peeps by even posting here.  To most, we are out of our minds.  I don't happen to share that view, obviously, but that's the general consensus.  They think we've checked our brains at the door even coming here.  I can assure you the others aren't scoring what is said or not said by any of us while we are here.

Even if you want to keep it just to this site, who exactly are we impressing?  In the past 2 pages alone, 3 people have told me to go fuck myself.  If I'm impressing these people, they sure are playing it close to the vest.

Nope.  I don't think volume or activity defines a things purpose or intent.

It might define it's perceived level of success...but that's jarmo's worry, not yours or mine, as it's his "endeavor". It did just fine before you (or I) started posting.  I expect it will be doing quite well (by jarmo's definition) until jarmo decides he's tired of running it, and switches off the lights.


Again, I don't see the point of creating noise, just for the sake of noise.  The point would be to have relevant, interesting, discussion and not just "noise" for the sake of it.

Quality over quantity.

I belong to a number of forums that can go silent for days (sometimes weeks) at a time...that have activity levels that ebb and wane based on the time of year, or with material release, or just with community "distractedness".  But, when stuff goes down, that's where I visit (as does a sizable contingent of other folks) to discuss that topic. 

They are still what they are, what they were intended to be, and what they'll likely always be.


Ummm...why does someone have to benefit?  And that's not just to the point above but...I'm under no illusion that anyone "benefits" from reading the words I type on the screen, either way.

With that, I throw back to you: Why do you care?  I mean, you're not jarmo's biggest fan, you've let it be known that you're not a big fan of the "tone" of much of the discussion that goes on here, and you generally don't seem to agree with the prevailing POV's that are posted here.  So, that being said...why do you care if the place is successful or not?  If the complete lack of material ultimately ended with the "death" of HTGTH (unlikely, IMHO), I'm not sure why you'd care?  I mean..wouldn't that validate your point of view on the  place? A bit of "natural selection"?

Nah..you're not setting out to be anyone's "savior".  You're not trying to keep the lights on, so to speak. There is no altruistic ulterior motive.  That's all disingenious smokescreens (and thin ones, at that) and poppycock.

You post cause you feel like it. 

You might want to read the point again.  I know you're linking previous "stuff" to this point..but I'm not sure you can.  You're essentially disagreeing with a point that's not being made in the text you're quoting.  The "strangers on the internet" he's talking about are the ones reading THIS forum.

All he's really saying is that:

a) Objectivity is pretty much absent

b) There's no reason to try to appear "objective".  There's no benefit to BEING objective.  There's no expectation that you are trying to be, or that you are, objective.  Not in this forum/medium (a fan forum).  You are not engaging in a journo/editorial medium, where there is some expectation (and reward...thus the Pulitzer mention) of objectivity.

If the need to discuss right or wrong things done by Axl, Management, fans etc. is so important. Maybe there should be a topic called bitching! Maybe that would prevent other treads from ending up as garbage bins with uninteresting discussions.

Like i said earlier. A little bit of discussion concerning the how things are done in GNR/Management or fan views is ok by me, as long as its not ruining the subject of the threads, and end up "off topic" all the time.

You're making a generalization. I only pointed out that people try to act objective. When in reality they're not. On fan sites of all places. The last place anybody would go to look for objective views on the band.

It's used as an excuse to post negative views. Just because somebody finds faults in every situation doesn't make that an objective look on those situations. It might just as well mean they were just looking for faults to begin with and focused on that.

Sometimes it seems like everything has to be followed by a BUT. "I enjoyed the show, it was amazing, BUT...." Just to not appear too much like a fan. All in the name of "objectivity".




/jarmo

Agree.  I also go to Big Blue View for G-Men news (sidenote: who do you want them to pick at #9?) and that's why I am somewhat surprised that my comments (and some others here) are viewed as negative.  It seems that if you disagree with anything Jarmo says, if you veer off the message at all, you're negative (and whining, entitled, etc., etc.).  The world is not just "Jarmo and friends" and "negative motherfuckers".  There are clearly degrees to which people view certain things (for example, I have no problem with a Vegas residency, strippers, and flying pianos) yet we all get lumped in the same bucket regardless.

It's not that black and white.  But it seems that some people here can't take any sort of opinion that doesn't end with the band is right and wins again. 

Nah, the fanbase would not be better served if this place closed.

As for why I care, its not that I care about this site, per se.  When I was asking you what the hell the is the point of a forum where you'd be cool with no new posts for days at a time, it was more of a general statement.  Its just a concept that makes no sense to me.

It's like throwing a party and saying you don't care if anyone shows up.

Sounds like you are making a generalization as well.

Best example I can think of would be clips of concerts.  Axl either sounds good or he doesn't.  There have been clips posted here where I've said he sounds great, and ones where I've said he sounds awful.  That opinion is based on how the man sounds.  What control do I have over that?  He either sounds good or he doesn't.  Just as I would hardly expect someone to say he sounded awful when he sounded good, I wouldn't expect someone to say he sounded great when he sounded awful.

But if your feeling is that if he sounds great, you say so, but if he sounds bad, you say nothing...that's where we come to a fork in the road.  He sounds how he sounds.  I just don't see the point in joining in a mass delusion that doesn't paint an accurate picture of the situation.  Who, exactly, am I fooling with that?

Key point here.

Do I tend to side with a guy like you or mortismurphy more so than not?  Clearly, I do.  But that doesn't mean we are all in lockstep.

Your Vegas example is a great one.  mortis hates it.  I not only don't hate it, I think its kind of cool.  I also don't think its all that different than who this band has always been.  And when he goes down that road that its an embarrassment, I don't even enter the conversation because its not what I think.

Yet I constatnly have to hear how he and I, or I and you...we are all in some sort of groupthink conspiracy to act in concert to bring the forum down. 

I?ll add my 2 cents here and there, but don?t post a ton because I know my viewpoint isn?t shared by the majority on this forum.
That?s also part of the allure, though. Even though I?m not super high on CD era Guns, some aspects, mainly Axl?s decision making, fascinate me to this day.
It?s also interesting to hear viewpoints from other fans that contrast so starkly against my own.

Definitely not seeking attention. No offense intended to anyone, but where I?m from, the last thing being a 34 year old posting on a GN?R fan forum gets you is looking cool.

I don?t care if it?s Richard?s birthday, or if DJ is slinging a new guitar. Don?t really care what any of current day GN?R, outside of Axl, maybe Dizzy, has to say in interviews, or about their side projects. That stuff doesn?t interest me, but I agree that every thread seems to bleed into the same subjects. A lot of the tired.

Call me crazy, but yeah, the ?name? discussion still interests me, because no matter how strongly either side feels about it, it isn?t a black and white issue.
I understand the majority of posters here are over it, and get that. Makes sense to keep it in the ?Dead Horse? section.

I don?t understand the stigma attached to Dead Horse. I mean, it?s a great fucking song for starters. In fact I?m gonna listen to it right now.
I think Dead Horse is where it?s at.  Why not create threads for the topics that are preferred to be left outside of the main section, and then all of us whiny, negative degenerate disillusioned scumbags with entitlement issues can have a pity party until the cows come home?

Then you guys can take your revenge, and troll us with your sunshine and rainbows.

Two things on this :

I also still see some value in the conversation, but mostly because its talking with fellow fans.  Who else would one talk to about such a thing?  Only fellow GNR fans even care, pro or con.

But another thing I think can be a bit of a misnomer is that entire discussions are started about it.  A lot of times, at least to me, the conversation will progress and meander to certain areas (like the name, or the setlist, what have you) where its either used as example or something to make a larger point.

But its not like anyone is proclaiming : "I now wish to talk about the name, and all other aspects of this conversation will cease."

Not really.  But it comes up from time to time in the flow of conversation, because face it, its one of the bigger events in this band's history.

I agree with this (and LongGoneDay?s post).  Take this topic, for example.  The first 6 pages are about DJ?s interview?and then it veers off course to talk about karma points, Aquaman, and Tommy?s interview.

It?s not like, on page 1, someone commented on DJ?s interview and the next post was, ?ok but let?s talk about the setlist.?

Things naturally degrade evolve over time, and we inevitably go on tangents.  I would submit that 6 pages straight about an interview we all could give in our sleep is a lot.  I mean, we should all get karma points for that shit.

Yeah, once you do those first few pages on a topic, you've pretty much talked it out.

I've suggested several times that by only having 3 or 4 active threads at a time, its basically impossible to keep "on topic".

But the time you hit page 22 of whatever topic, odds are, the conversation has shifted several times.

Then the issue is with your concept of what a forum HAS to be, to be a forum.  Not with the construct itself.

Volume and activity is, mostly, irrelevant.

It's a place to discuss things.  As long as it's open, and it exists, it "is" what it is.

It might not be what YOU want it to be, but, again, irrelevant.  Since it's not "yours".

I like your party analogy. It fits very well.  But, perhaps, not for the reasons you think.

When I throw a party, I'd rather have a party of 20 people who are fun to hang out with vs 100 who are likely to trash my house.  I'd rather have a low, but steady, buzz of conversation vs a jet plane equivalent roar of sheer, unstructured, noise.

And since I'm throwing the party...that matters.  It's still a party: MY party.

I also control the guest list...and if a guest gets insulting, or insults my guest, or behaves contrary to my expectations of "good behavior", I would politely (and then, not so politely) ask them to leave.

Like I said..it's a good analogy..but perhaps not for the reasons you think.

And therein lies the real heart of the issue.

You discount anything that falls outside what YOU think is an accurate picture (which may, or may not be) as a "mass delusion".  Rather than a different, and equally possible, or equally valid point of view.  Based on a different perception.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

You (and mortis) do the EXACT same thing.  I can't count the number of times I've been lumped into jarmo's point, by both of you, when I have, in fact, been making a different point, entirely. When it's been argued that "we" are making an argument. That "those with the rose colored glasses" just aren't seeing things clearly.

I'd suggest..if you don't want to be lumped in...don't lump in yourself.

But...it's the same shit.  Nothing new, at all. It's the SAME conversation, with the same people, making the same points, and constructing the same arguments.

I understand all the above points, made from all the above posters (D-X's was just the last in the train)...but it's still reading the same exact things. It's BORING.

Sure...it's volume.   Sure, it's adding to the post/page count.  But...honestly...I'd rather silence.  JMHO.

I'm finding myself less and less interested in participating.  I lurked for a LONG time, again..because it got so monotonous and repetitive.  I've been back, lately...but, honestly....it's starting to feel that way again.

Yes, I'm talking about a certain little group of people.
Yet you seem take everything I say personally.

I'm not talking about you. Maybe you're part of that group, I don't know.
It's a behavior I've noticed over time and it popped up here with the argument about objective posts.





Exactly.

And I think some of these people doing it, are either "newbies" or just plain ignorant.
When this board started, we added the Dead Hose section for this specific reason. A bunch of us had been on the old boards, we had discussed the name issue already, for example. New people join and they can't wait to talk about that same issue, to them it's fresh. Yet, for the rest of us, it's just like one long Festivus.

This kind of behavior has been repeated ever since.




/jarmo

I thought by the time of the Vegas residency in June, he sounded good.  I said so.  Clips were posted and I lauded them.

But the shows in March were not good, as far as his vocals went.  And even if you want to tell me "good" is in the eye of the beholder, I would then challenge you to say with a straight face that you can stack up side by side a clip of Axl from Vegas in June and Axl in South America in March and say...yep, same thing.

There is no way that is the case.  At bare minimum, you have to concede they sound different.  If you want to try and sell that March was still good, that's your prerogative.  You can do what you wanna do.  But what you can't tell me is that they are the same.

That's fair, I think.

You're trying to get specific. But, at the end of the day, you're reenforcing the case: If people don't share your opinion, they're "delusional".

The larger issue is...your general POV (and yes, I'm generalizing) is depicted in the statement I bolded.

I didn't tell you they were the same, or one was better...so, again...lumping. If "someone" did....fine and dandy. But your wording was "mass delusion".....

My point is that the bolded statement is, really, indicative of the heart of the issue, here.

Great.

But I'm giving you a specific example and I'd like your feedback on it.

Am I off base viewing it that way, in your opinion?  Was there not a discernible difference there?

Sorry, I'm not interested in deflecting to a specific example, because it doesn't address the point I made.  I'm not here to play referee between you and whoever that specific person was.

However, I would say you're off base in projecting your aesthtic perception as being the only correct one and everyone else is delusional.

If you want to argue the wheretofore's and whys yours is the superior perception....have at it...with the person who objected.

I'm suggesting, though, that when the jumping off point is: If you all don't share my opinion, you're under the influence of a mass delusion....THATS a problem.  Because, really, it stalls any ACTUAL discussion.

Well, that's lame.  All due respect.

I'm not asking you for a check or a blood donation.  It was a simple question.  Who gives a fuck who said what when about what.  I'm asking you, right now, and you are stonewalling.

I should tell you that the perception of ducking something like this in this manner sure looks like you not wanting to address an inconvenient point.  I'm sure you will deny that vehemently and treat me to another spiffy lecture, but if that's all you got, save yourself the typing and we'll just move on.

I don't think D-X is saying that his perception is the only correct one.   I think what he's saying is that there is a difference between the March shows and June shows.  The difference is clearly noticeable.

Now, I guess it's possible you can say that both performances were good (in your opinion) but that one was better.  I think he means (and I agree) that anyone who says there is no difference is being delusional (to use your word).

No, it's not lame.  It's a lack of interest. I just don't care about your previous spats. They don't have anything to do with me unless I was a participant.  I wasn't (and there was likely a reason for that).

I care more about the overarching point of view you tend to embody, so that's what I choose to talk about (and you're trying to derail, deflect or ignore), because we are so often at odds when it comes to POV. It effects me, so I find THAT interesting.  If you'd like to revive the discussion in question with the person who was involved..go for it!  But...a mass delusion involves a large group of folks...not just one.


I'm not stonewalling.  I just don't care.  It's not pertinent to the point I made.  It's you trying to derail, deflect, or wiggle out, of the fact you basically posted your general point of view and philosophy, which doesn't paint you in a very stellar light.  

Just own it. Or try to change it. Your choice.


No, it's you trying to set up something, anything, that might, through smoke and mirrors, look that way (maybe). It's you trying, very hard, to make ME look bad, to minimize the incredibly valid points being raised.  Honestly, it's tactics, not a genuine point.

It's also not a point I have an opinion on because it involves a very specific conversation that I wasn't any part of, at any point. I don't even think I recall it. It's not an "inconvenient point", it's an irrelevant one.  

Because most every post you make, and every discussion you enter into, upholds the philosophy/pov I'm pointing out. It's right there, in your own words, bolded for all to see.  And I suspect the view when the mirror is getting held up is making you a bit uncomfortable, so you're trying to find an "out". You're trying to deflect, or create some construct, that justifies you to discount every opposing viewpoint, in ever situation.  Or to create a specific situation (after the fact) that might loosely justify the words you wrote.  And maybe you'll even convince some folks that's all it was.  But....there's too much evidence to the contrary.  Reading that line, honestly, flipped the switch and lit up the lightbulb for me.  I get it,now.

I, likewise, get that you might not like "the lecture", but you've been pretty involved in telling everyone else listening the ins and outs of how to treat the "opposition".  I'm just pointing out....those in glass houses and all that.   You laid out, for all to see, just what you think of those you view as YOUR opposition, and thier opinions/POV.  

He used it as an example, to bolster a larger point.

An example is meant to represent a larger number of similar things.

I don't care, one whit, how he ACTUALLY felt, in terms of the samples. It's not relevant.  It's use as example is the important part.

But, used as an example, with the closing that essentially says "If you don't agree with me, you're suffering from a mass delusion"....would seem to indicate that's how he views most of the encounters he's using the example to represent. No?

Yeah, basically.

He introduced the point that he takes exception to my use of the term "mass delusion".  And the first example off the top of my head, was those 2 sets of shows.

In my opinion, saying the March shows sounded good was untrue, as I do not feel he sounded good.  And I see no value in saying something I don't believe.  Certainly not under the flimsy rationale that its somehow my duty as a fan to do so.  As I said in that earlier post, who am I fooling with that?

And then, to throw him a bone, I said even if you want to say one person's good might be different from another (a legit point) I then introduced the contrast between the two, which is not subjective at all.  They sound very different.

Correct.

But can you not do two things at one time?  I get the point you are trying to make about me.  And, from what I see, I am not even giving you a problem about it.  Have I told you that you were totally offbase, I felt that was unfair, etc?  I have not.  That alone suggests I accept what you are saying, at least on some level.

But then, separate from all that, I asked you a question you ducked.  I tried again.  More ducking. 

In my experience, a guy passing on it once is one thing.  A guy passing a second time and stating he's never going to answer it, at that point, the focus becomes why there are so unwilling?  There must be some reason.

Can't we say concurrently that what you are saying about me might have merit, but also give your opinion on a direct question about something else?  Does you answering a question about those 2 sets of vocals somehow detract from your read of me?  Is it even related, I'd even ask.

Then..there you go.  That's the only point I was interested in, or was trying to make.

You owned it.


I'm not ducking.  Ducking implies that I would be expected to have an answer or opinion. I see zero reason why there would be some expectation that I'd have an opinion on this.

I just don't. It wasn't (and isn't) relevant to the point. And I wasn't (as far as I recall) an active participant at the time. 

Did this interaction really stick in your craw so much, you need someone to revisit it for you?


Because the guy doesn't find any of it interesting, or relevant.  And has no interest in weighing in on something he wasn't involved in, or has any real knowledge of (as I said, I don't even recall the situation/conversation).

Likely, since I do read most of the new stuff, I read it at the time and passed on participating. If I'd had an opinion, I probably would have presented it then. Did I?


I gave you my opinion: I don't have one.  I don't care. I don't see it as a relevant tangent.  It's really that simple.  Nothing else. Just ambivalence.

Tell you what: If my opinion really means THAT much to you, you can link me the old conversation, in sum total, and I'll take some time over the next couple days to re-read it and draft my dissertation on it. Include links to the concert snippets, too, if they're not included in the convo.

There are no archives to dig up, man.  It was just a question put to you, and only you.  Right here, right now, today.

If you don't want to address it, you don't want to address it.  Is what it is.

I don't have enough interest, information, or impetus to address it. It's that simple....

Are you, ultimately, trying to say there are two sides to the coin?  Is that where you're going?

'Cause, if it is, I think I've already weighed in on that one...

No worries.

Yeah, that's what I don't get either.  I think that Axl isn't good at techno/industrial rock music such as Rhiad or My World. It's not his forte and background to be quite honest with you. The moment you say that here though you are deemed a hater. Over at Big Blue View, I sometimes wonder if these fans are Giant fans or not due to how harsh the criticism of Coughlin, Reese, and Eli can get.  Additionally, I like the Vegas residency. I wish he would do one at MSG or Prudential Center.

I don't want to veer to far off from GNR, but I would like the Giants to draft an offensive lineman or the WR Cooper.

Ultimately, this is a forum promoting 'positivity', correct? Would ad hominem attacks be filed under 'negativity'? I think they would. Where are the ad hominem attacks coming from?  I do not see many coming from dgx or ginger, or even in fairness some of the people defending against these so called 'whiners'. You would expect such instruments of positivity to, appear positive, but no. Just using my example,

- you are a 'whiner' if you do not agree with the politics here. We have established that.

-'Go away; - I actually had some guy messaging that to my inbox. I got a message with a conspicuous Axl picture telling me to 'go away'. Bacon repeated this line merely a few days ago. I have never personally felt the need to tell anyone to ''go away''. If they disagreed with me I would prefer them to debate it out like a man.
 
- you are posting as other people somewhere else. Where does this rubbish come from. Grammar? But surely grammar is correct or incorrect?

- ''Whiney shit'' or some other insult. A 'prat' if I remember correctly.

- ''zero humour''. Again Bacon, before descending into zero grammar.

- Lies.

- frightening levels of analyse into posting history. I found myself explaining why I could not post in the year, 2006 (or whenever gnr were doing something which was actually good for a change - which is rare) based on work history. And then I asked myself, 'why am I actually doing this?'

And then there are the straw men.

The straw men are particularly infuriating as they make it impossible to debate anything in any real sense. ''That statement contradicts'' ''why are you saying DJ is lying'' ''but I never said he is lying, just that there is a contradiction'' ''why are you accusing DJ of lying'' (it is always DJ but never Ron now for some odd reason). Impossible to have any reasonable conversation with people this irrational.

Fundamentally though, a fan base is only as good as their artist.  If you want sycophants, you will get sycophants.

Maybe the forum should close until there's something new to talk about?

Nope.  I don't think you have to take ANY actual action in relation to the forum operation. Why would you?

Again, there seems to be this weird misconception that "activity levels" define the construct of a message board.  It doesn't.

Besides, there's often "new stuff" to talk about.  We've had a flurry of new topics over the past couple weeks.

The fact they end up tangenting into the "boring stuff".....I hardly think that's reason to turn the lights off.  It might be reason to start moderating those threads and mass c&p ing that stuff over to dead horse.

- and you "drink the kool aid" or are "delusional" if you have a generally positive attitude or AGREE with some of the politics here


- "rose colored glasses", "imbecile", "Pravda readers", "zombified propagandising zealot", "that type of fan is completely absurd", "Axl apologist", "sycophant", "delusional", "irrational" "swinging from Axl's nut", "toeing the company line", "hypocrit"....shall I go on?  It goes both ways, my friend.

You are VERY accepting of the viewpoint "this is not gnr", and various others.  You put forth the idea these are valid alternate POV's than the ones expressed by a contingent here at HTGTH, and argue that they should not be diminished by being labeled, as you point out, above.  Great. Fair enough, and I'm with you.

And then, you are almost completely intolerant of the opposite side.  You paint the "critical" fan as being superior to the less critical, or "positive" or however you want to label it, fan.  And then you "label", or categorize, the opposing viewpoint in exactly the same ways you object to having the viewpoint you are most sympathetic to being "labeled".

You want "open mindedness", and then poo poo on the opposing viewpoint in exactly the ways you object to.


I started that, and, quite frankly, it's true. I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings (truly). Your sense of humor largely doesn't come across in your prose. That's not meant as an ad hominem attack...it doesn't make me think less of you or your posts. It was meant as an explanation as to why you got serious responses to what you intended as a joke.  I've noticed I'm not the first to fall into that particular pitfall with your "joke" posts.  And, honestly, I don't mind if you have to clarify later...I'm just explaining to you why it keeps happening.

Really...sorry if that bugged you.


The album?  Sure, it's often a topic of conversation.

In terms of "about you"....specifics?  Because other than the "he's that other poster"....I'm not sure I can think of any.  You might not like the characterization of your opinions, but I'd suggest that others don't really like YOUR characterizations of their positions, either.


Like jarmos post history is often analyzed?

I agree on this front, but I apply it globally: The threads should be about the topic, not the people posting in it.  And yet...lots of topics (certainly more than the instance you're thinking of here) end up being about "the posters", and I'd offer up more often than not, it's about jarmo.


It goes both way, man.  You've done it too, so has D-X, so have others.  TO ME.  You BOTH, in the course of a week, on slightly different topics, created, ascribed, and argued against an opinion for me.  I'm not trying to draw D-X into the discussion, either, or lump you together.  I"m just trying to point out that....it's common on both sides of the "pov spectrum".

What's ironic is: You take issue, in a batch of posts, of people saying you're accusing certain band members of lying. You bemoan the straw man and say you never said that.

A few days later? You do the EXACT same thing, in discussing a previous Ron interview.  You insist that people (me, included) are saying Ron is lying..when nobody has actually said that.  I can think of no clearer example, here, of things going both ways.

I agree, it can be annoying. But it isn't a tactic reserved for those holding an opposing viewpoint to yours.


Surely you see the irony of closing a post about ad hominem attacks with the above. Right?

There is a LOT of Pot. Kettle. Black. moments in your post, above.  And, once again, we're decending into discussions about posters...and not the topic.

Are you scared that it's that easy to see your posts?
Don't be scared.

This coming from a guy who made a statement like "the 2012 Jarmo would've banned you". Amusing.




It's rare that GN'R does something good? You're on the wrong fucking site.





I think it's time for your decade long break again.




/jarmo

A little more (or really, any) levity probably wouldn't kill us. 

Ever think maybe it would ease some of the tension if everyone wasn't so guarded and took everything so seriously?

Agree.  IMO, a fan forum should talk about the good, the bad, and the ugly.  It should discuss all things Guns n Roses.  It seems like the mantra here is to not only focus on the good, but pretend the bad and the ugly don't exist.  If that's the stated purpose, then so be it.  It's your playground.

Here, the overwhelming amount of posters and topics are positive.  I'll grant you it's a difficult thing to balance, and some sites focus more on the negative and the absurd way too much.  I just don't see the benefit of insulating yourself from it.

I just mean we could joke around with each other a bit more.  Would have to lighten the mood, I should think.

The amount of distrust and wariness around here is pretty goofy, I think.  You never see anyone joke around.  This is SERIOUS BUSINESS, this talking about a rock band stuff.

Criticism is fine. As you can see, people are freely posting their displeasures. They're not being censored. But to bring up the same tired points every single day is extremely tiresome. What's the point? Nothing new is being brought to the table. Talk about beating a Dead Horse. If that leads to extended periods of inactivity here, so be it. But, do as you please. I rarely post here anymore because it's the same boring discussion every day. Which, I personally think is worse than there just being nothing new to talk about. It seems like a colossal waste of time to me. But whatever, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and are free to use their time as they see fit.

You really can't say people aren't free to speak around here.

You may get ripped apart and called every name in the book, but you can still speak your mind.

It comes down to the single little thing I keep bringing up time and time again, and none of you seem to get it. Instead you repeat this ad nausea.
If GN'R is a band that constantly upsets you year after year, this isn't the message board for you. If it's that "horrible" to be a fan, go somewhere else. Debbie Downers are free to find other places to post.

The fact that some of you have to be challenged to say something nice about the band once in a while speaks volumes. That shouldn't have to be the case. Therefore it's obvious that these kinds of fans might not exactly be the "target audience" for this board.

Here we are, another month, the same people and the same complaints about how this site is run.



/jarmo

I understand the point you are making, and I accept it.

But, to look at this from a different angle, isn't sort of understood that we like the band if we are still coming here everyday?  Like, isn't it a given?

Isn't there it at least some redundancy involved in constant reaffirmations of that premise?

I agree.

"Can't we all just get along"?

Ugh?again with the we?re constantly negative and upset with GnR.  Just.  Not.  True.  For sure, I question some of their actions (or non-actions) more than you, but I?m not constantly bemoaning the state of affairs (or letting it affect my life in any way). 

Also, we don?t only point out positives when there?s a gun to our head.  Many times, there will be (unsolicited) posts from people speaking positively.  You seem to ignore these, or just chalk it up to we?re just saying something nice so can double down on the negative later.

If anyone here is not a fan of Axl and GnR, I would submit that it?s weird that they?re here. 

I agree totally. And it's funny because, if any of us (well, most of us) were to meet up at a show, I'm sure we'd crush a few beers and have a grand ole time...

But see...that's the point.  You're just perpetuating the "us vs them" thing that permeates so many of the threads and discussions.  You're looking at it from your pov, and your pov only. And taking the piss out of the opposing view point. Granted, in a somewhat more passive aggressive way, but...

It's all about tone and respect for other people's POV.  Its hard, given where the tone goes, and the lack of respect shown (and I'm not pointing, specifically, at one side or another) to embed humor.  Or to recognize it.  

Many of us did...maybe not the current most prolific posters, but....back in 2006, before the Hammerstein shows.  Fans literally from around the world congregated, pre-show, to shoot the shit and get our drink on Then, after our show, a bunch of us when out and grabbed a late (early?) breakfast.

One of my favorite GnR "nights", ever.  And some folks were there for the FULL compliment of shows...

I watched the show with you Pilferk....the Monday night show in the balcony...you and Jazjme....I use to be Madagas on this board back during that timeframe....darknemus was there as well.

Hey, man!!  What a fucking awesome night that was!!

no doubt...great show. I went to the 17th (wed) show as well when Izzy and Kid Rock came out.....awesome 3 days in New York as I went to a Yankees game on Tuesday. I sat right on top of the dugout in the old stadium.

Of course, after the Monday night show I got a nice little 4 hour taxi ride trying to get my ass from Manhattan to Queens....drunk as a skunk. I may have been taken advantage of! Dumb Southern redneck on his own in the big city.  :hihi:

Just looking through my Hammerstein DVD's...funny, I have 5/12, 5/14, 5/15, and 5/17. But not 5/16.  I was pretty sure I had it, so now I gotta do some more hunting. :)

Of course people like the band. But what exactly is it that they like? The band that existed until 1996? In 2002?
Sometimes it seems to be very defined and filled with conditions.

"Until this and that happens, I'll be disgruntled and posting bullshit complaints week after week".

Not interested. Move on.



/jarmo

There is no 5/16.

The music.  Its all about the music.

Can't say I've seen too many disagreements about the music itself, which is obviously the reason all of us became fans in the first place.

Totally Kick ass night!! oh @pilferk, I'm pretty sure there wasn't a 5/16 show   :hihi: : ok: :beer:

Well there you go, then! No wonder I can't find it!