Here Today... Gone To Hell!

I wonder who wrote this one?!!!!!


Just a quick THANKS to all the well wishers and likers of our FB page here. Every single first and last one that somehow adds up to over 27 million. Yep, even the loud, obnoxious, ornery, bad-mouthing individuals that show up with the snide, irrelevant, stupid-ass remarks about what THEY construe or fantasize and keep repeating or changing in some way shape or form that we haven't noticed yet so we can bounce them off the page. And the BIGGEST thanks to those who stick with us, fighting the good fight and who support GNR across the interwebs and most importantly REAL LIFE. Looking forward to catching a bunch of you out on the road soon! peace.

It's obvious.  ;)

That was nice.  Not long before they are on the road again.  :D

"Slashsbaconpit has no idea what's going on with the new album. Don't listen to him, he's crazy!"

In Yours Ass Trolls, great update

 :beer: :beer: :beer:

Ummm Axl.. ;). He's famous for run on sentences.

Yep, even the loud, obnoxious, ornery, bad-mouthing individuals that show up with the snide, irrelevant, stupid-ass remarks about what THEY construe or fantasize and keep repeating or changing in some way shape or form that we haven't noticed yet so we can bounce them off the page.

 :hihi: :hihi: :hihi:

Considering it wasn't signed....





/jarmo

I think I recognize some of Del's famous idioms in the part.  :hihi:

It doesn?t matter who wrote it. Axl is fully behind it. Axl likes to control everything. Other people wouldn?t write something like this without Axl?s support.

Haha!

Thanks for the laugh. :hihi:


Some really need to wake up and smell the coffee.



/jarmo

Oh fuckin' please.  ::)
90% of the GNR Facebook posts are about 1987 GNR.
You really think that's what Axl is all about?

how long until this pops up on some website with all these weird interpretations as to why it means no new music is coming out??  :P

Yes!!! Absolutely! I like his music. I admire his talent. I?m not a fan of who he is as a person. I don?t like him at all.

Another fan who "knows the person" because they're a fan.




/jarmo

Spoken like a true Slash-fan/reunionist.  ::)

One day Jarmo you will understand

Really? What exactly will I understand? Please enlighten me.




/jarmo

There is nothing I or anyone else can say. You need to put the pieces of the puzzle together going back to 1985 or earlier. And no, I don?t want a reunion although I?m a fan of the golden years. And sometimes I dream about seeing them together again. Duff, Slash, Izzy and Steven are doing fine on their own. I?m just happy they are alive

Well Doc, I think the DeLorean got misplaced so I can't go back to 1985 to find the pieces.  ;)


I'll give you a hint from personal experience. I've been told that apparently I'm nicer in person than I am on this board. So, go figure. If you think you know me by reading these words, think again. I think the same applies to most people.




/jarmo

Heh, here we go

Looks like the band have returned. Roll on 2014

this is true... unless you're named 'cotis'.

 :hihi: :hihi:

Sounds like someone is getting a little fire in their belly.  I like it.

LOL good one Jarmo!   That cracked me up  :rofl:

Is this all you have to say about Axl?s many human virtues? Now I see clearly that Axl is such great and amazing person. Pope Francis must be really jealous.

 ::)

You're using the head of the Catholic church as the measurement of of good somebody can be? Uh oh....

The fact remains, you judge a person by what you read.... Mostly written by others.


And you believe Axl wrote that update because you believe the things you read about him. No matter how ridiculous it seems if you actually think about it.



/jarmo

??? What does Slash have to do with this?

First of all I don?t have any obligation to like Axl Rose the person. Second you have spent great deal of time with him. So please tell me he is a beautiful and amazing person. Yes, I believe the things writen about Axl because those things don?t come from one source only. Many people over the years have said things about his character. Besides there are things Axl has said, done or written himself before this last statement on the GN?R facebook.

The only ridiculous thing about the facebook statement is that they have no right to say those things about fans. Fans have been dealing with a lot of things for 20 years. If there are fans who want a reunion. If there are fans who like Fink and not DJ. If there are fans who don?t like CD. If there are fans who want a new album. They have the right to speak freely about how they feel without having to deal with insults by the GN?R Camp.

The ridiculous thing is that you believe Axl micromanages every single detail about GN'R to the point where you think he posts Facebook updates....

They have "no right"? So "freedom of speech" only works one way? Isn't that special?
It's ok for you to spew out any kind of hateful negative crap but if the band says they don't agree with your behavior, they don't have the right to do so?


It amuses me to see the reaction from the people who have that opinion. Every time somebody in the GN'R camp dares to point out what they do, these people attack the person(s) doing so. Wonder why you're feeling singled out...




/jarmo

Of course they have no right to insult fans! Fans buy albums and tickets. Fans have been dealing with riots, cancelled tours, delays, members changes. And now fans have to deal with insults as well? They could?ve been a bit more politically correct and I say something like "... And to all those oppose, well..." if they wanted to say something to fans that complaint too much. I think there is more than one way to express something. I didn?t say Axl necessarilly wrote it. I said that even if someone else did it Axl knows about it. And he stands by every word in the statement.

I agree with you.... freedom of speech is freedom of speech...it should work both ways....


but the fans are the customer...and there are a lot of fans of the current version of GNR only because they became fans of what GNR did a long time ago...is it really good business to attack those people?

and unfortunately there does seem to be a pattern of resentment towards that part of the fan base... which kinda sucks , because all of the people involved are only in their current position based on what the past built


so in summary... i certainly understand where the "GNR camp" is coming from.. who likes being criticized?

but they should also probably curtail publically going after consumers... and remember why there are 27 million facebook followers....... there is a lot of history that built that

GNR boards should come with free migraine tablets I swear.
So we're talking about a band who became famous for not giving a flying F about what anybody thought about them... once declared as the most dangerous band in the world... and that should now somehow transform into a band that curtails publically, kissing the behinds of people who are attacking them and insulting individual bandmembers in the most vulgar and despicable way?

I just love it when people yell: "freedom of speech" declaring the internet as legal free room where they can bash on others who have been quite a lot more successful in their lives, so they don't have to deal with their own.
opinions are covered by freedom of speech; coating an opinion into an insult is definitely not! and people can easily voice their opinion without insults (a thing we do everyday in real life^^)
so when Guns reply to such comments explaining how they feel about them that is wrong? I can't even see an insult in that statement since nobody is attacked personnally for having that or this opinion, it's kept generally towards those who give their opinion using insults. so if anybody feels addressed... go figure.

I thought it was a very cute, honest and lovely way of saying "thank you" to the caring fans. and I also think it's about time boundaries are set for the haters, since they also adversely affect the people who would like to enjoy their favourite band without hassle, arguments and low life BS remarks.

double talking jive motherfuckers!  :-*

You're making a generalization. Which people who feel singled out always do.
Why don't I feel insulted by that post? I'm a fan too!




More generalizations. Would you also say the same fans rioted in Vancouver, St Louis and Montreal?
Of course not.

Read the fucking update. They're not insulting fans or attacking fans. Only people with some kind of weird wish to dislike GN'R more sees it that way.
You make it sound like all fans were insulted.

I'll give you an example.
If, for some reason, you would go see GN'R at a show and the person next to you throws shit and yells insults at the band. Would you A: think it's his/her right since (s)he's a fan who paid for the ticket or B. wish that person was escorted out of the venue?

How dare Axl or Tommy speak out against people throwing shit at the band at shows! They got no right to attack fans!
Nobody would be so stupid as to object to that! But when it happens on the Internet, it's ok. Poor "fans".


There's no resentment towards fans. The update spoke about a little clique of Internet trolls who only seek attention because for some reason they didn't get enough in their life. The same kind of people who go to shows to throw shit at the band. Actually, they even thanked those fans! How is that insulting or attacking....

Just because you bought an album in 1987 doesn't give you the right to act like a fucking ass clown on the Internet in 2014. Have some common sense and see what it was instead of constantly crying about how you feel insulted.




/jarmo

Exactly...you have the right to say what you want, but it's probably not wise to condemn the fan base that helped you to have such a large following.  Whether you like it or not, when people think Guns n Roses, they don't think CD (or Richard Fortus)...they think AFD, UYI, Axl, Slash, Duff, etc.  If you want that to change (as hard as that may be) then the current lineup needs to create and release music to distance themselves from the past.  Telling people to forget about the past (and ridiculing them in the process) ain't the way to do it.  Give them a reason to do it. 

Here's hoping 2014 provides the reason.

Once again.

They aren't attacking fans in general!
Read it again.
They, do, not, hate, their, fans.



Why is it that only the few fans who seem to object the most to Axl and GN'R these days are the ones who feel that GN'R attacked all fans?  :nervous:



/jarmo

Eh, that's debatable.   :P

Ok, maybe you're the exception....  :P




/jarmo

Could be.  Then again, Ron made fun of you in that video where he mimed you going "Hello. I. Am. Jarmo." like a robot and you're a "model fan".   :hihi:

What's your point?




/jarmo

My point is, while they may not exactly "hate" the fans, they sure as hell don't take us all that seriously, die-hard loyals included.

That all depends on the situation.



Anyway... I still don't understand how some of you seem to be condoning the hate aimed at your favorite band, or people around it, by select individuals on the Internet and when somebody speaks out against them, you attack that somebody.




/jarmo

I understand that fans crossed the line with comments and trolling all the time. But you have to understand that for a guy who loves Robin or Buckethead or Brain it is tough to deal with the fact that they are not there anymore. Not to mention the fans of the original GN?R. Or fans who want a new album. So they are angry and they express their anger in a very unpolite way. However managers shouldn?t put themselves at the same level of some angry fan or a mere troll. THIS IS WHAT I?M AGAINST!Managers, GN?R Camp or Axl himself must act in a professional, serious and mature way. They should be more business savvy.

So from the business perspective. That facebook statement it?s mere trolling. They could ignore those unhappy fans or they could address the issue using other kind of language. Axl thanked the fans on twitter. That facebook rant was unnecessary and out of place.

The same with the comments about the RHCP. Who gives a fuck about the RHCP??? Only Axl. So next time Axl should call Flea or Kiedis and tell them only

Axl again missed a good opportunity to talk about the up coming shows. I?d like to hear Axl talking about how proud he is of the band. How happy he is about touring again. This is just an example of things Axl should be telling fans and the general public. Rally the fans!!! Axl talks Super Bowl, NFL. So Axl should be spending time and effort in making the GN?R fans the GN?R #12 just like Seahawks fans are. He is doing exactly the opposite!

I don't think being a fan gives you carte blanche to say whatever you want, however you want.  Again, that goes back to a feeling of entitlement, IMO, as well as the bravery and/or stupidity that comes from the veil of anonymity the internet provides.  I don't think it really has anything to do with the "tough time" being faced by those who miss former members.

Could the post been worded differently?  Sure.  But, I don't think it was impolite.  I think it was honest and direct.

Ali

So in other words you should kiss the ass of the people who spread hate?


It's the Internet. The place everybody can be somebody, and that's great. But it also gives people the opportunity to act the way they would never do in "real" life. Somebody might be 14 or 40, you don't know. I bet if you actually met some of these people, you wouldn't take anything they say seriously. Because nobody would take a stranger on the street yelling that you're an idiot seriously. But on the Internet, that kind of behavior gets followers....



/jarmo

For anybody who is a sports fan..


fans yell and scream DISGUSTING things at players all the time....

its not right...

but if the athlete yells back at a fan... hes probably going to get suspended... or like the college bball player who just shoved a fan.... big no no no



so like I tried to convey earlier.... i just don't think whoever wrote that should be posting it... looks shitty , they should be bigger than that like the athlete is expected to be

just my opinion ... this has nothing to do with how I feel about Guns N roses or Axl whatever, in all walks of life... dont tank on the consumer

Well, people gets escorted out from shows if they need the attention.


But we're not talking about people at shows or sporting events. We're talking about the fact that some think it's their right to spew any kind of negative, hateful shit they want on the Internet. And it's aimed at people in YOUR FAVORITE band.

And you still think it's right.





/jarmo

I understand what you're saying, but in the case of the OK State player who shoved a fan, that was physical contact against a specific fan.

This GN'R Facebook post was not directed at any specific individual.

Ali

All people can do is base their opinion on what a person gives them.

If someone chooses to act like a lunatic in public, but in truth is a prince of a guy and just never shows that side, that's their prerogative, obviously.

But the shoulder shrugs about why people think what they may think about you are pretty disingenuous.  Its not exactly the riddle of the sphinx here.  Perception is often reality.

Most people just give an honest assessment.

The disconnect seems to be when people would rather not hear that assessment if its not all sunshine and puppy dog tails.  And if this is your favorite band, that's all you should ever say, apparently.  Everything is awesome.  And problems?  What problems?

Well, this isn't fantasyland.  People can only comment on the reality in front of them.

True, but we enable that.

A lot of fans make the "battered wife" comparison, but that's a bit much.  Domestic violence is a damn sight more serious than anything involving the goings on of a rock band.

But the reality is that for all the "complaints, complaints, complaints" (as a wise woman once said) we tolerate it.  In actuality, its pretty foolish for us to expect he is going to change.  For all the questioning of his motives and logic behind certain moves, we all stick around, don't we?

I am not arguing at all that some people should be given a muzzle....unfortunately GNR's up n down history brings out some of it... but thats not the point here

are some of the comments just nasty and unwarranted? of course they are

I just dont think its right or wise for any public entity to go after the consumer... thats all Im saying

Exactly.



You need to clarify what you said because they didn't go after the consumer, they just made a comment about a small number of people.


And I'm not saying you can't like the FB page because you only liked GN'R from 1987 to 1990 or whatever. Or only liked the band when Buckethead was in the band. That's your choice.
I object to the fact that some use the disguise of being a fan as an excuse to post hateful comments.

So if you bought some albums and concert tickets 20+ years ago, why is it ok for you to post shit about Axl, Dj or anybody in the band today?




/jarmo

Tough to win a fight you pick with your own fans.  Artists, athletes, whoever.  The chances the fan is going to say you have a point ain't great.

Lordy, I can see why he is called Hands Solo now. Who would want to be sharing a bed with you  :hihi:

Let Axl vent, let the fans enjoy it, and let 2014 be a good year for the fans that like GN'R now and want to get involved in the whole atmosphere of it all. You are a real buzzkill. Go away

  The GN?R Camp made a statement in their official Facebook. They better get used to the fact that there are fans who don?t like the new band nor CD.  This debate has been going on for about 15 years. Nobody can change how people think and what they like. And a statement like that only make things worst. Don?t you think it is a better strategy to make a statement about the up coming tour?

So you're against the whole update that thanked all fans for their support and only briefly mentioned hateful Internet trolls?
The same people you say you understand that it's wrong of them to do what they do...

I love how you took a positive message that thanked the fans, singled out basically a sentence, and made a big deal out of it it while managing to basically turn the whole message into something negative...





/jarmo

First off, I agree with you.

But look at the man at the top.  The most extensive promotion he did of his 10 years in the works album were those internet chats.  And how much time was spent on talking up the new album or putting the new guys over?  Compare that to how much time he spent shitting on Slash and message board moderators.

Why even include it? 

Do a quick cost/benefit analysis.  People who think that sort of statement has any relevance already think like that.  But you are going to get far more blowback over it than "right on!"s.

So why do it?

... while we ignore the hate aimed at your favorite band.....


Maybe the reason for all this is that you hate the band too so it's difficult for you to condemn that kind of behavior? We're talking about "knowing somebody" by reading their posts right? So the few of you obviously never had anything nice to say about the band, and since you bought some albums at some point, it's ok for you to hate the band and Axl all you want. And anybody who dares to speak out is "unprofessional".

You guys are pure comedy in your bitterness toward the band. Yet here you are, year after year... Trying to act like you're "real fans".

Oh no, I attacked all GN'R fans!

Yeah, that was a joke. I can make generalizations too you know?



Because it needed to be said at the time?

Chances are that if you speak out on something, somebody will get upset. We all know that. It's life.

But I still think it's telling that you're so sensitive to somebody speaking out against people filled with hate toward your favorite band. Yes, I keep repeating it because it can't be pointed out enough.
I just don't get it.

Some of you seem to have shown more understanding for these Internet trolls than toward the band. Amazing.
Do you use the same logic in other cases too? If somebody bullies your kid, are you gonna go "it's ok, he/she had a tough childhood"..... Or maybe you'd get mad at the person pointing out that the bullying isn't cool.



/jarmo

And I was told just last week to stop pointing out that you are little more than their freakin' shill running a state run media site.  The point was made, I was told.  Let it go, they said. 

Should I now chastise you for beating your own dead horse?  Or is this "different", because its you?

The reality is that if people are still bitter about the break up 17 god damn years later, they will never change.  But there are other of us out there that made our peace with the break up, but aren't going to be lectured about being "disloyal" because we dare notice when something gets fucked up.

All a comment like that one does is hurt.  It never helps.  The only ones that thinks it has merit are people they already have under the influence, such as yourself.

Hi DG, Axl is just being Axl.

Say something positive. You post here a lot, what is it about GN'R that keeps you here and gives you that buzz for the future. Somewhere inside is that thing we all have.

What? They? Who are they?


Yes, some people are still bitter. Yes, some people are still upset about a show being canceled over a decade ago. Some are still upset because there weren't enough interviews in 2008.

It's fine. How you life your life is your choice.

BUT, in my opinion, the behavior some of these people show isn't ok. It wouldn't be ok in real life, but because it's on the Internet and they're fans, some of you are justifying it as "allowed".
If I buy a coffee at Starbucks, it's ok to start yelling at the cashier that he's a moron? Maybe I'm bitter because my favorite barista quit, so it's ok for me to call the current barista a no talent loser?

If I made that kind of scene, chances are another customer would tell me to shut the fuck up and/or a manager would have me removed from the store. Nobody would object!



/jarmo

I thought there were enough good songs on CD that warranted continuing this band as a viable operation with a real future.

Sadly, Axl doesn't seem to share my view.  He'd rather take a touring band out every 2 years to play the same 25 songs.

What keeps me around?  Hope, and I'd argue rather pie in the sky hope, Axl proves me wrong and starts to give a shit again.

Jarmo gets all fired up about "200 shows!!" since DJ joined.  And how its a great victory for all of us that the band, you know, actually showed up to play them.  Score!

I hold out hope for some future output.  With each passing year, it seems less likely.  And I've already written off 2014.  And its...let's see,, Feburary 10th.

You are never going to convert a troll.

I have made the same argument to the Bring Back Adlers and other posters like him.  Why hang around just to stir the pot if you truly have no interest in the future? 

But its completely na?ve to think a few sharply worded digs will shut them up.  It emboldens them.  So why waste the time?

It's kinda funny when you read all those comments about how the band is always changing members and this line up has played more shows than the two Use Your Illusion line ups combined... Not that you care about that. So yeah, you can make fun of it.

Which is ironic since just a few days ago you kept pointing out how unreliable GN'R are.... So now you're making fun of me pointing out the number of shows they've played, and them playing all those shows, while you keep pointing out how GN'R might not show up. Congrats! Once again, something good, you managed to turn into "bad"... But it's in the eye of the beholder. :)




I don't think anybody's trying to shut them up or convert them.

In this case it was just a "yes, we are aware of what you're doing" kind of thing.




/jarmo

That was not a positive post I asked for.

You posted a sentence, then you just seem intent on criticising the band members and Jarmo.

This is a =fan= forum?

If you are not that, move on

Its swell.  But its a piece of the puzzle.  And its been 6 years now.

I am well on record with what I think.  And you rip me apart over it.  Despite the fact that most (if not all) the facts are on my side.

Here is what is probably our greatest difference.  If Axl shocked the fucking world and put out an album by year's end, I'd be right here saying I was wrong.  Putting it up in lights and letting everyone with eyes know I was wrong and was glad to be proven wrong.

You?  You're not doing that.  When another year passes without even a hint of a new album, you will make no such gesture.  But still be there to lecture anyone that dares point out the sad reality of the inactivity.

Its "funny" how "you" don't seem to "care" about "any" of "that".

I comment on the current situation.  If the band was releasing albums and seemed to give a damn, the tone and the content of the discussion is very different.  That's not my call.

As for your last bit, that's just laziness.  Even pointing that out is more than it deserves.

Like you pointing out to people who are excited about the Las Vegas shows that GN'R are unreliable while you make fun of them playing over 200 shows since this line up was formed?
I think you need to stay humble....





Me? Yeah, I'm not gonna say I was wrong about them putting out or not putting out an album when I made no such statements to begin with.
I hope they do, but until I know something I'm not gonna say either way. That's how I work. Assumptions based on nothing more than a hunch isn't my thing.




Sounds like it's frustrating for you to be a GN'R fan. Ever consider taking a break? Might be less stressful...



/jarmo

Ok, it is maybe laziness.

Look, you are looking for a 'viable future' on a band that released AFD 27 years ago. It is extraordinary to be treating a band that far forward so sharply. Where is the respect and the forethought, to be fair.

Maybe I am older and look at things differently, but my opinion is, you are just being a buzzkill like that other poster earlier. You are not offering anything to the fan that has been here for 20 years. I just do not see what you are trying to achieve with your comments.

I said I personally would not incur travel and lodging expenses to see them.  Come to town, I'm there.  Travel?  No thanks.  



Yeah, because you need to go see The Wizard.

Look, we can't both be right.  That's the bottom line.  I say I don't see a new album anytime soon.  If you think I'm out of line saying that, logic would dictate its because you think otherwise.  

Logic does not dictate that I am way off base (despite no evidence to refute my opinion) and anyone that wants to really take me to task on that can wimp out on taking a real stance.

Its a put or shut up situation when you take the hard stance you do.  You either believe it or you don't.  You don't get to tell others they are wrong and say you have no opinion.  Its not credible.

I am not looking for songs like 'Still Out Ta Get Me'.

But I was impressed enough with songs like 'There Was A Time', 'I.R.S.' and 'Prostitute' and would like to hear more of it.

Even if you have a 'put up or shut up' approach, post your opinion once, then move on.

You are wave after wave of negative.

People say, why do not people post here. Well, if you are reading wave after wave of negative, and you just wanted to post one positive comment, would you do it?

Be an upstanding, responsible fan. Post your post, but let others be.

If you post, say something positive and constructive, then offer arguments.

It works better that just being that guy who drives everyone to log off  : ok:

Jarmo responds to just about everything I post.  I'm not going to ignore him.  Message boards are based on dialogue.

I can't do much about the fact that every response to everything I write is how I should fuck off and am not a "real fan".  I play the cards I'm dealt.

So I just post how everything is awesome?

If the tour opens next month, Axl takes the stage on time and sounds great, my posts will reflect that reality.

If the tour opens with late start times and Axl in weak voice, well, my posts will reflect that reality. 

What my posts will NEVER reflect is a rosy outlook 24/7/365 when the facts on the ground do not support it.  I don't know any other way to have a credible dialogue.  All you can do as a person is comment on what you see and hear.

If, if, if

Of course, if you buy a ticket to the forthcoming concerts, and have a negative experience, then of course inform us.

But you have to buy a ticket, and you have go to a concert and offer up some reality to us. That is what it is about

If they come around, I will be buying that ticket.

Someone just posted a 2010 concert from Bucharest over at MYGNR.  I've been listening to it for a week and a half.  Axl sounds incredible.  Perhaps the strongest sounding I have heard him since the relaunch.

I very much hope that's how he sounds when they hit the road again.  I'd much rather be talking about how things are clicking then how they are misfiring.

Logic would dictate to me to establish what soon is first before making assumptions based around said word.

If you keep repeating something enough times, you'll get it right/wrong at some point. Do you get some kind of satisfaction from saying "no" all the time because you've been right from 2009 until today?

Maybe the difference is that some of us don't thrive on that kind of negative thinking. Maybe you're happy about GN'R not doing what you said they wouldn't do day after day, while some of us are happy with what they do... (insert some smart ass remark about low bar here)




/jarmo

If they come out and play three new songs at these concerts, no one is going to be talking about snarky Facebook posts.

That's the kind of shit that fills down time.  Its never going to get precedence over honest to god new positive developments.

That was a pretty good update ;D keep flaming back


lmao  :hihi:

I also drink latte (a LOT!), so I can imagine how ridiculous it would be.

By being negative, you are putting off the positive poster.

Let them post and let them be positive. If you are a fan, at least respect some of your other fans

Your arguments will be more interesting on another thread on another day

This all means you stop replying and posting. Let the fans on a fan forum now post

Yay

And you're lecturing a man who STARTED his (this) GNR fan-site on October 26, 1996.
Oh the irony!!! :lmao:
 

Haha, really?

5 days before GNArmegeddon.

Do you really buy that?  You think there are people just waiting to post positive comments, however, due to "negative" comments by some, they choose not to?  I find that hard to believe.  There are other GnR forums that are much more negative and have a lot more posters.  

And, what you call "negative" is nothing more than a realistic and objective view of things.  I don't see anything here that is negative (i.e. DJ sucks, Axl's fat, etc.).  That type of bullshit is negative and worthless.  But just because someone brings up legitimate criticisms (i.e. no new music even though this lineup has been together for several years 200+ shows, content to tour and play the hits) doesn't mean they should be lumped in with the former.  

There's a rush here to paint anyone that doesn't buy in hook, line and sinker as not a "true fan."  Sorry, but it's not all puppies and rainbows.  And yes, you can still be a "true fan" and ask questions and be critical about the current state of affairs.  Saying "it could be worse" or "don't post negative comments" isn't really a convincing response.  Nice try with the censorship, though.

If this forum was just filled with 100% positive, up with people, every day is better than the last, no decision that is made/is not made is wrong...well, there would be even fewer people that come here.  That would have more of a cult feel...if you're in you're in, and if you're not, well then you're not a true fan.

Totally agree, Ginger King. 

Thanks for that.  Agree 100%.

Yes but I don't think what your Mom says about you counts on here does it?  :rofl:
Just joking Jarmo, we are all nicer in person than we are when working.   : ok:

Very, very well said.  No one wants to hang at a GNR forum equivalent to Jonestown. Nor should anyone who speaks their opinion be criticized for not being a "true fan".  What nonsense.

That said, I'll take the occasional verbal slaps on the wrists here over the utter madhouse a certain other forum has become.

Despite what seems to be a growing reputation as a rabble rouser, I do try and color within the lines here.

I fully understand and even agree with not allowing tired reunion talk, "Axl is fat, LOL" type bullshit, and what have you.  Totally unproductive conversation.

But I'm a guy here day after damn day rooting for a new album.  How, by any defintion, am I not a "true fan"?  Are you kidding me?

Axl was talking about a small pocket of trolls who "liked" a GNR Facebook page.   I wouldn't classify all 27 million as fans.  I like Things on Facebook that I just decided to have on my news feed.  Doesn't mean I am a fan.   I think people are twisting this into more than it is.  Axl has been blasting his critics for years.  He is outspoken about that.  There are a ton of insults towards Axl in a lot of Facebook posts.  I like to dwell on the part where Axl thanks me as a fan.  And yes I am going to hop into an airplane and fly across the US to see Axl perform because there is no other front man on this planet I'd rather hear sing a song no matter what the setlist or band looks like.  If I can get a photo with Axl this time around, I will be very happy.   : ok:

It's like telling Chicago Cubs fans to stop rooting for a World Series "Just enjoy the damn game, at least they're playing, you're not a true fan!".  For whatever reason, that logic doesn't seem to exist in this dojo...

NO MERCY!!

The thing that some people here don?t want to understand is that fans don?t agree. And they don?t have to. If you ask fans what their favorite GN?R song is you?re gonna get like 100 different answers. There is no right answer and there is no wrong answer. It?s a matter of personal taste. But if Axl and his entourage demands that fans favorite song must be This I Love because they say so. It?s not gonna happen no matter what. They can?t change people?s taste. Are they going to troll those fans who like other songs? Are they going to call those fans not true fans? That?s not how it works

They have to understand that fans don?t agree. Fans don?t like the same things. And they have their own opinions for many reasons. The same happens when it comes to band members and albums. Even if the band makes 10 albums this year still there will be tons of all kind of opinions. Not all the fans are gonna like every single thing about every album. That doesn?t mean they are not true fans. It will always be impossible to have an unanimous opinion about things related to the band.

It is a good thing to have debates and different opinions. Sure there are ways to express an opinion.  A mod can ask not to use the word suck and instead use don?t like.

Get over the different tastes and poor fans had to endure the member changes over the years.
That's never been the issue!


Why don't you just say it's wrong for some of these assholes to post personal attacks against your favorite band on the Internet instead of trying make up excuses for their behavior?

But instead of doing that, you focus on how the band is being mean to their fans. Which is something you made up to draw focus from the real issue.



No, it's like having a few of you pointing out that they'll never make it there. And even if they're already there, they'lll point out how they'll lose every game because some old players quit.
Haven't you noticed how difficult it is for some to give the band any credit for anything?

Some of you are justifying your posts with being supportive. Support is something positive, yet if you look at the posts they hardly look that supportive or positive.
So the excuse is "I'm only negative to be supportive". How constructive!

What those of you with that mindset also seem to fail to realize is that some of us have been here before. We've seen your "support" over the years. It amounted to nothing. Just because you spent the early 2000s whining about there not being a new album, it didn't make the album come out any sooner. Yet, your positive thinking and track record is leading you to believe you'll have a better shot this time?

I'm sorry your "fan experience" is filled with misery and you can't find anything good about GN'R these days and hatred is justified with "they're fans, they're customers".
Cheer up. The band is active, things could be worse.

Yeah yeah yeah, low bar blah blah blah. At least I don't aim for the moon and spend decades whining about how I never get to jump over that bar.  :P




/jarmo

That last line here is a pisser.  Have you just discovered irony?

As for the people you are talking about, they don't matter.  A stupid troll is going to be a stupid troll forever.  You are never going to stop the Bring Back Adler types and their "personal attacks".  You write them off as lost causes.  They aren't interested in the current band and never will be.  So fuck 'em.

So they call the band mean names.  Who gives a shit?  They are morons.



Perhaps this is a just a personal thing, but I'm not going to go overboard effusive with the praise over them doing things a band is expected to do.  They announced a tour and then played the dates?  Holy shit, what trailblazers. 

Its obviously better they tour than literally do nothing, but its hard to get as fired up about the 11th leg of the same tour.  We never seem to be moving forward these past few years.  New gigs in 2002 or 2006 were enormous because we had nothing to go on for years.  At this point, I would wager just about all of us have seen some incarnation of the 'Chinese Democracy' tour.  Its time for the next step.  Long past time, actually.



No, that's blind fanaticism.  Hoping they put out another album in my lifetime is not "negative".  Its the exact opposite, actually.  But I'm not sure I, or any fan of the band, is ever out of line for simply asking why there seem to be no plans for such.  Who else would we talk to about such a thing than other Guns N' Roses fans? 

And the answer to that question is not "but they just announced dates, there is no pleasing you."  You are offering an answer that has nothing to do with the question being asked.

I don't know. Have I?

The part of the post wasn't aimed at you.




Finally we agree on something.

Still, I wasn't talking to you.  :D




Fair enough. BUT.... Aren't you the same person who kept saying they are more unreliable than other bands? So, keeping that in mind, shouldn't you be FUCKING ECSTATIC that things have improved?
Why do you get to eat the cake and keep it too? You can't have it both ways.... Either you keep lying to people about how GN'R always cancels shows and changes members, or you stick to the facts and give them some credit.




Ok, and how would that next step start? I mean, do you think the band doesn't know what to do?





I want them to put out an album too. But does it mean I have to put down the band? No, it doesn't. It also doesn't make the time between right now and the album's release date go any faster.
Be honest, did it seem like it worked out for you last time?

Focusing on the one thing you don't have instead of focusing on what you do have.... Yes, in your personal life that can make you achieve things. But in this case, it's a band that you're not in, so it really makes very little sense for you to do that.  :)


It's a pretty simple question at the end of the day. What does being a Debbie Downer achieve?


/jarmo

The same thing being Rose Coloredglasses achieves, apparently.  Nada.

You are way too hypersensitive.  You are making impassioned speeches against Facebook trolls for god's sake.  These are not people that represent the current fanbase.

And its 100% dishonest to lump myself, or anyone else frustrated by the lack of any sort of coherent direction forward, in with them.

I'm not making posts against trolls or lumping you with them. I agree with you, they're morons.

I'm pointing out that some are trying to justify their actions! With the "poor fans, it's not easy being a GN'R fan" excuse.
There's something weird when people post more about how "wrong" it is for somebody to speak out against the trolls than to speak out against the trolls.  :nervous:




How do you know what it achieves? You never tried it!  :hihi:

So you're pretty much saying that your constant complaints amount to nothing. Glad we got that sorted out. Doesn't it seem like a waste of time?

So you'd say feeling bitter/upset/angry/let down/insert your negative emotion, about your favorite band, is better than not feeling that way?
Would you say most people would like to surround themselves with people who are overly negative?




/jarmo

Human nature is to comment on what you see and hear. 

When the band is on the road or a new album comes out, that dominates the conversation.  We are being given something good to comment on.  When months, and sometimes an entire calendar year goes by with literally nothing happening, the talk is going to be about that.

You seem take the position that praise for the good should be shouted from the rooftops, but criticism over the bad should be kept to your damn self.  That's not reality.

If they come out next month and debut even one new song, that will be the dominant topic of conversation.  However, the flipside of that coin is that if they come out in March and play the same 21-23 song set in roughly the same order, that is likely to dominate the conversation.  Both reactions are valid reactions to what we were given.

You're avoiding the questions....

My stance is, hasn't changed, if you come to a Guns N' Roses fan site, you're there to support the band. Not to endlessly whine about things you have no control over. It's not constructive, productive or anything, just boring.

As I said, would you like to surround yourself with people who whine day in and and day out?




/jarmo

I do support the band.  I have no answer to your phony argument because I don't accept your false premise that I don't, but that's life in the big city.

Put it this way.  If I'm the worst "not a true fan" of this operation you come across, you've done well.

Ya know what's funny?  In my circle of friends, they know me as a die hard GNR fan of both the old and new lineups, and an avid supporter of Chinese Democracy.  I'm sure the same goes for you D-X.   Only here do we get scrutinized for wishing that Axl and the current management were doing better in terms of putting out more music, connecting with the fans and moving forward. 

See, but that's the catch here, isn't it? Not only do you have to be 100% on board with every single step the band takes, or doesn't take, you also have to be absolutely in love with management as well, despite their obvious inability to negotiate another record release, and connect with the fans in a non-condescending way.

You know what's funny? Changing the subject when you can't answer questions.

You guys support the band, but how come you hide it so well? :)




And here you are condemning the band for communicating with the fans and thanking us, even those people who aren't really fans.

I need to repeat myself because for some reason it doesn't register with you: You think you're the only fan who wants GN'R to put out more music? I'd say 99.9% of the fans on this message board would love that. The difference is that most of us don't think whining about it will change a single thing. Other than make every fucking thread into your personal WhineFest about how there's no news about the album or how shows don't matter.

We fucking get it. You want an album.

"Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?" that's what it reminds me of. We're not gonna get there faster just because you sit in the backseat asking every two minutes.




/jarmo

Spot on.

And yes, I have found the exact same thing.  To the people I know in real life, I am a GNR fanatic.  Everyone knows they have been my favorite band for at least 25 years.  I wear a GNR baseball cap everywhere I go.  Its the only hat of any kind I have worn for at least 5-6 years.  I have 2 yet to be worn spares at all times for when one needs to be replaced.

Then I come here.  Here, I'm "not a true fan".  I'm "not a supporter".

Oh yeah?  Bullshit.  To label me anything but a diehard fan of the band, both classic line-up and current incarnation, is a totally dishonest argument.  

If you are looking for a guy just waving the pom-poms, yeah, I'm not that guy.  That might be how you define a "true fan" or "supporter", but I don't share that view.  And if that means I'm some sort of lesser fan in your eyes, so be it.  But that's your problem, not mine.

OK, captain our captain...just what the fuck are we supposed to talk about?

You announce a tour date and 47 straight people respond with "Cool.  Can't wait"?

That's some stimulating conversation we are missing out on.

No one is under any delusion Axl gives a fuck what we think.  That's another of your tiresome strawmen you float in hopes of quashing anything other that rah-rah bullshit.

So, at this point, I think its fair to ask what makes YOU think that telling us to shut the fuck up and fall in line is going to get you anywhere?  Answer the question!  Why can't you answer the question!  ANSWER MY QUESTION!!!

You know Jarmo, you do that a lot, accusing people of not answering your questions.  I'm starting to think that they are, however, you're just not getting the answers you want.  I really don't know what to tell accept that's on you.



So, in other words, even if the next album is at the top of your list, do not talk about it or act openly disappointed when steps are taken that will inevitably delay it because, you know, it will not make it a reality any sooner.  I'm sorry, but that just doesn't seem very realistic.  I mean, isn't that pretty much the name of the game on a message board?  That is, discussing your opinions about, in our case, Guns N' Roses?  

It just seems like you're asking an awful lot of people who simply disagree with your mindset, and will cause you a great deal of pretty much unavoidable stress, especially when you consider how this operation is currently running and who is running it.

Of course that's what going on.  He doesn't so much ask questions as list our sins and demand we repent.  That's the "answer" he's after.

You of all people think it's fair to ask me questions after you've avoided plenty of questions aimed at yourself? That's amazing.
Keep trying to make fun of me. It's been tried before by other "real fans" who lack answers.


What does it do? It creates a more positive and constructive environment.

You claim you only post about things you see. Well then you only see specific things, things you can point out that are "wrong". That there's no new album for example. We all see that too, but we don't focus on it unlike you.

What kind of supportive fan points out that the band is unreliable only to make fun of them for concluding tours without being unreliable?



No, you just ignore the questions.

Here's one: Why is it so difficult to see you say something nice about the band besides something like "my friends think I'm a hardcore fan"?




Your opinion on GN'R: It sucks being a fan.
How far off am I?




All I'm trying to do is to understand what you get out of the constant whining and how come it's so difficult for you to find anything to be happy about in 2014?
It just sounds very depressing to me to constantly think everything sucks.

I just don't get it. "Right, time to login onto the GN'R fan site to complain about there not being an album today either"...



So, any plans to attend any of the 2014 shows announced so far?



/jarmo

We are back to how you define "support".  To you, its rah-rah all the time.  That's not support.  That's delusion.  But if you are going to hold firm on that, you are in for a lifetime of "just not getting it", I suspect.

I have made the example several times about the upcoming tour.  A new song or two, that's the discussion.  Shit, a new order of the same 21-23 song set would be the discussion.  I will be very active in that discussion if that's how it plays out.  And, suddenly, I guess I will cease not being "supportive".  Bully for me.

But let's make something clear right now.  If its the same exact setlist with no new changes, that is getting discussed as well.  It won't be as interesting or have as much staying power as actually talking about something new, but it will be said.  By me, and others.  Might as well make your peace with it.

No, really. Explain to me how that action was supportive of the band.
You did it, so please... Answer how your actions were supportive of GN'R.

You might be right, maybe our definitions of supportive are different. Because to me, putting down something somebody accomplished that you claim they couldn't accomplish, isn't supportive... But, you might see it differently, so please explain so I can understand your point of view on this particular matter. :)




Ok, so you want them to play something new. Nothing wrong with that.
Everybody has their "optimal dream setlist" and favorite songs....




/jarmo

Jarmo, really.  What do I like about Guns N' Roses?  Here: My copies of Appetite For Destruction, Use Your Illsusion, Chinese Democracy, the shows I went to in '02, '06, '10, '11 & '12.  I like all of those.  They're all great.

The fact that you put fans like us in a position to defend our status as a fucking "true fan" is absolutely ludicrous and does absolutely nothing for whatever cause you believe you're waving the flag for.  

Here's the facts: Even during the silent years 03-05, behind the scenes the band was creating and building towards something great.  Hell even for all of Azoff's evil intentions, he was the one who worked out a deal that got the album out, and made it a reality in our hands and ears.  The truth is, for all of their love for Axl, Team Brazil is an unproven management team and they afford us no reason to believe they are capable of negotiating the next album's release and moving Guns N' Roses forward in 2014.  

Sporadic touring of the hits is fine for what it is.  I'm sure the shows will be great.  That said, I'm not ashamed to say I want more for Guns N' Roses. You should too.

 : ok:




I'll explain something to you. And maybe you won't like this.

The thing I do is, if I see something I don't agree with, a post, a behavior or something, I say it.
Also, if you say something, I expect you to stand for it. If I call you out on posting something ridiculous, I expect you to be able to stand for what you said. It's pretty simple. If you don't stand for what you post/say, why are you doing it?





You make claims like this, and you have nothing to back it up other than assumptions. What exactly do you know about what they do and if it works?

Are you aware of how many management teams were let go between "The Spaghetti Incident?" and Chinese Democracy? How come not all of them succeeded in what you consider a success? You seem to make the kind of statement that GN'R needs better managers, when in reality lots of managers have come and gone.

Would you rather have a manager that the artist doesn't trust and doesn't know what the artists wants, or not?




/jarmo

Which action?

How about going ahead and buying a ticket to the first available show in my area since he no showed on me?  Which I did, on the first day of the pre-sale.

What that "supportive"?  I'd argue it was.  I'd sure dispute its me being some hater.



Well, we differ here.

You think its a herculean feat to schedule shows and then play them.  I consider that the job.  Its the business they've chosen.  And I'd argue the fact that we have to go out of our way to laud them for meeting their meeting their commitments is due to their failure to do so in the past.  Is there some other reason we should pop the champagne for a tour that concludes without a no show, storm off, or riot?  That's how it should be.  That's the job.



Truthfully, not exactly.  Yes, I'd love to hear a new song or two.  But I am not blind to the pitfalls of trying something brand new for a crowd that doesn't know it.  And that's fine.  (thought I would point out that they did allude to new songs being played)

Frankly, I can roll with simply a new order of songs and few substitutions here and there.  I'm talking really small time stuff, like swapping out an AFD song or two for a UYI song or two.  Or changing the handful of songs they play from CD.

The bottom line is that I just want to see something a little different.  I can't lie and say it won't be deflating if the night of the first show you are doing the song by song update of the setlist, and I can basically call them out before you type them.

You're still avoiding the question.

How is it supportive to spend pretty much years saying how unreliable the band is and then when they're not, make fun of them?
You keep doing it. Just answer the question and save the smart ass remarks for somebody else. Thanks.

"You can never do it, never, never, la la la"
"Oh you did? Well it doesn't matter. You should've done it before".

Supportive?



Don't know where that info came from, how the question/answer was worded or anything so it's hard to tell what it means.

Seen plenty of cases where things have been taken out of context before.  :hihi:




/jarmo

Think of it more like this.

We pretty much have to figure on Team Brazil being the bad guy, don't we?  Because the alternative is that Axl is 100% happy and onboard with their ramshackle way of doing things.  I think most of us would rather believe he's not and expects a little better.

And since you asked for examples, I have one : the VH-1 concert.

Most of us were excited about it.  And we made it appointment TV to catch it when it aired.  I, like most I assume, DVRed it.  For the record, I liked it.

And then what happened?  They pitched a fit and had all sort of problems with the presentation.  Wasn't happy with the songs selected.  Sent out a pissy release about it, resulting in GNR being the only of those concerts VH-1 did that will never get a replay.

I think to a lot of us, it was just another example of mismanagement.  If you are that concerned about what will be played, you don't clear that first?  Isn't that the job?  And even if you don't, a pissy release after the fact is the best way communicate that?  Is that professional?  Is there any real wonder it never got a replay?  And, presumably, will not get another one for any future tours?

And in terms of overall professionalism, gotta be honest, a lot of their stuff reads like stuff you might read from a fellow message board poster.  Is that a good thing?  Was "complaints, complaints, complaints" a good move?  How about Fernando calling us racists?  Is that a smart play you'd expect from professional management of a major act?  How about picking fights with message boards in general?  Is that the type of thing band's management does?

In closing, I just want to re-iterate you asked for examples.  In other words, you asked for "negativity", so that is what I have posted here.

You are kind of losing me here.  Where did I "make fun of them"? 

I'll also need clarification on the "pretty much years saying" bit, as I've only posed here on the regular about 3-4 months now.

The last passage is just you putting words in my mouth.  I have pointed out their track record has been bad in the past.  Because it was.  I don't see that as out of bounds.  I know they didn't show up in Philly because I was there ducking chairs being thrown over my head.  The fact that he actually did show up in Camden when I bought a ticket 9 years later was great, but it doesn't excuse what happened in 2002.  I can't just pretend that shit did not happen.

I don't wish a no show or a riot on anyone, because having it happen to me sucked.  But what are the chances if another one went down you'd be critical of it?

Yep.

As I said, saying somebody will never manage to do something and then belittling them when they do...
You claim they're unreliable and then say "Oh, everybody manages that" when they prove you wrong. How is that supportive? Still not understanding it.

Is it so difficult to say something like "that's pretty cool, they did something I doubted they could do. Kudos to the band"?
No matter if you think it's the least they should do. Because it's an improvement on something you've been complaining about for a while.



Sorry, what I meant was that your "they're unreliable" thing could've been said for years.



You forgot the show in 2012.




I don't agree with violence at shows.
People are there to have a good time.

But I'm also not gonna point fingers without knowing all the facts.  :P


/jarmo

Mid-week show, that one.  The Camden show was on a Saturday, so it didn't matter that he took the stage at 11:20 (which he did).

But I can't be asking friends to come with me to a show on a Tuesday where he might not wander out there until 11:20 and then play for 2 plus hours.  As I live in the burbs and not the city, that puts me home at about 2:30AM, at best.  With work a mere 5 hours away.  No good.

This would be a perfect example of the unreliable thing.  There is literally no other major band I would have these concerns about, seeing a midweek show.  Literally anyone else would have me back home by midnight or soon after.  Axl would be 5 songs into his set at that time. 



The problem here is that you can hide behind that forever.  To you, its still out of buonds to criticize 2002 because we don't have "the facts".  And so long as "the facts" are never forthcoming, it excuses it for all criticism?  Yeah, in fantasyland, maybe.

But we are getting lost in the weeds here.  Let's keep it big picture.

If another riot, storm off, or no show happened, you are damn right I'd be right back here asking you to comment on it.  I don't think a comment would be forthcoming, but after the enormous umbrage you have taken at the mere suggestion, you best believe I'd ask the question.  Because it would be my closing argument.

Whole lot of questions here, Jarmo.  And not one answer from you.

I'm not sore about it, but am going to ask you to keep this post in mind the next time you are all over someone's else shit for not answering even one of yours.

Fair is fair.

Still, they came back to your city.  : ok:



Last summer the US shows started between 10 and 11pm. Except the surprise show that was later as well as the Rocklahoma festival.
These were mostly club shows.

Before that the arena shows in Australia started between 8 and 9pm. In India in 2012, around 7pm. In Las Vegas, around 11pm.




Fantasyland? Is that where all the unanswered questions go?




You sure are into asking a lot of questions when in reality you avoid to answer simple ones....
Funny for a person who's proud to announce he'd be the first to admit he was wrong. But yet, has failed to do so when questioned:






We all react differently. Maybe you'd be happy if somebody did something they weren't supposed to and created a situation where you got blamed for it?




Talk about taking things out of context!

First issue, a poster comments on Beta's PERSONAL instagram account. It's not some "officialGNRmanagement" account. PERSONAL account! Not GN'R business! Once again, take responsibility for your own actions. You "troll" GN'R members or management's accounts, don't expect some kind of special prize.

Second issue, I didn't get the memo where I was called a racist. Once again, you look for reasons to dislike management. Did they single you out?

You never heard of artists speaking out against certain sites?

You sure convinced everybody that GN'R had better management in the past with those examples. The manager responded to a comment on her instegram and then another called out certain close minded people for posting hateful things on a forum. Damn, that must really mean they got no clue!

You really victimize yourself way too much in order to find things to dislike.
Nobody here in their right mind would be offended if I said "there's some hateful people on the Internet that are racist". Because you wouldn't feel I was speaking about you. But if somebody associated with the band makes a similar statement on a fan site, suddenly everybody there feel insulted and labeled a racist. Amazing.

The "objective super fans" who are quick to criticize the band sure get their feelings hurt and offended easily. What's next, Axl shouldn't use the word fuck anymore?



Yeah, those comments are so much more worse than "13 Tuesdays"....Oh, and working for a reunion. That's how management should be? Doing things against the artist's wishes?





/jarmo

No, the "13 Tuesdays" and "it might just show up one day" was one of the more ridiculous things I ever heard floated by a major act's manager.

In fact, I loved that open letter Axl put out in March 2007.  It was one of the rare times he seemed to offer updates, comment on how things were mishandled, and tell us he was trying to do better.

Stuff that only helps him.  And it takes like 5 minutes of his time.  As I recall, reaction was very positive.

The reunion thing?  I look at it like this.  Any new manager on the scene with even a scintilla of business acumen is going to ask Axl about it.  No other idea makes more business sense, and its not even close.  So you ask once, Axl makes a face, and then you don't bring it up again.  But any manager that gets the gig is going to ask that.  It would be a dereliction of his duty not to.

The only one that won't is Beta.  But she is also not some industry veteran.  Their relationship is more personal, so she knows that's a dead end.

I will say that any competent manager asks the reunion question once, then never again.  It would be foolish for him/her to not even ask, but equally foolish to persist with it once Axl says there is just no way in hell.

How do you explain that then? I thought you were going on and on about how bad current management is.



It was positive until he was called a liar for not delivering on that date in March.



And you know this is what happened?




I would say then you don't know anything about your client and I don't consider that professional at all.
That's the difference between now and then. Knowledge of the client.

Can you please answer my question now? That has nothing to do with management, who was better or who called who what? Thanks!





/jarmo

The current management has serious credibility issues with the fans and not a great track record of delivering much of anything for us.

Some dipshit comment Merck made 8 years ago now really has no bearing on the job they are doing now, which is a mixed bag, at absolute best.



I got my dates mixed up.  I thought the letter was in March.  It was actually in late 2006 and hinted a potential March 2007 date, right?

Initial reaction was positive though.  I didn't see any blowback until Axl missed his proposed March 2007 date by a full year and a half plus.  If it had come out in say, June 2007 instead of March, people would have rolled with it.  But another 18 months to get tracks that didn't sound a hell of a lot different than the leaks we had all already had for a year was a bit hard to swallow for most folks.



No, I said its what any competent manager would do.

A manger's main responsibility is to maximize opportunity for his client.  Simply put, nothing would be better business than a reunion.  They would be delinquent in their duty as manager to not ask at least once.



The difference between then and now is competence.  And by then, I mean 1987-1994.  By now, I mean 2001 or so onwards.

The best management they ever had was either Niven or Goldstien, take your pick.  No one that has come after has done anywhere near as good a job.  I highly doubt you'll agree, because you have been conditioned to hate them both as they are on the enemies list now.  But by any objective standard, no one post Goldstein has done as good a job.




What is this, 4th grade?  Are we handing out participation trophies here?

As I've said, multiple times now, if they take the stage on time and do a tour without incident, its a good thing.  Its also an expected thing that doesn't warrant excessive praise.  The fact you think it does is really just an indictment of how shitty things used to be. 

You seem to be angling for some answer where I'm going to say that since the last leg was incident free, all is forgiven.  Its not going to happen.  Nor is it terribly relevant.  Its a great sign for the future if they keep it up.  And if they do, I will say so.  They start hitting the stage at 11:30 again, I'm going to say that too.  So be ready.

 :hihi:

Who made you spokesperson for all fans?



A competent manager wouldn't go behind his client's back especially if he/she knew the client would never do what he/she is trying to achieve.
It's pretty simple thing to fix. You sit down and ask the client, what do you want to do?


Would you say the manager of Roger Waters has failed? Since Pink Floyd could make a lot of money if they reunited.
How about the manager(s) of the surviving members of Led Zeppelin? All these failures as managers who can't make these cash grab reunions happen...




That's funny. Are you saying people like Doc McGee and Irving Azoff are incompetent?




Based on what? Shows got canceled, there were riots and lots of drama on their watch. ;)
Let me guess, records released.

And since they are so highly successful managers. What re they doing today? I don't know, I'm curious. If you can title yourself "the best manager GN'R ever had", shouldn't you be somebody managing some huge band/artist today?

Maybe they are and I don't know because of my "list".  :hihi:



I have what now?
Where do you get this stuff? It's funny!




Again with the smart ass comments.



It warrants praise from you! That's all!
For once.

Nobody's expecting big fluffy clouds to appear or rainbows to shoot out of your....

Just a positive sentence giving some credit without any smart ass comments or any buts or ifs attached.
That's all I'm after Mr "I'll admit I was wrong". A very simple request.

You can't keep saying things are bad when in fact they improved and then refuse to acknowledge it. Not here.
Don't be scared!



They might, in Las Vegas. It's not a matinee. Sorry.
If the venue even lists a starting time at 11:45pm, don't expect to be in bed by 10pm...



/jarmo

We took a vote.  You were in the can.



Well, Rogers and Waters hate each other.  Its the only other band I've seen with the sheer level of dysfunction found with our boys.

That said, they still took the stage together one more time.  Axl wouldn't even enter the state of Ohio, much less attend the HOF to be honored with the others.

In terms of the job Pink Floyd and Roger Waters' respective management did after their break-up?  Better than Team Brazil.  Frankly, I would not invite the comparison, but you felt the need to, so there you are.



I don't think their body of work in the role of GNR management stands up to what Niven or Goldstien accomplished in the same big chair. 

You do?  Care to elaborate?




James Carville got Bill Clinton elected in 1992.  Never did another one.  Does this invalidate his work?

What did Niven and Goldstein do?  Got albums released, several successful world tours in major venues, a PPV concert.

The current crew?  Hey, how's that DVD coming?  Let me guess..."soon".  Right after that 'Better' video drops.




You would never show public support for anyone's on Axl's naughty list.  Knock it off.




It's a knack.  You either have it or you don't.



Things have improved.  Logically, for something to "improve" its because it needed improvement, yes?

You want to throw a parade for when they show up for announced gigs.  Why should that be news?  Well, we don't talk about that.




I agree Vegas is different.  Different town, different mindset.

Camden, NJ?  Really not much reason to come on at 11:20 PM unless its a conscious decision for your own goofball reasons.

And I got some more news for you.  If Axl truly cared about his fans, he wouldn't leave us to be walking to our cars at 2 AM in freakin' Camden, NJ.

My heavens you too!   When Axl speaks, it really creates a stir!   

So from around 2001 to present, you believe that Beta had/has no idea what lengths her predecessors have gone to in regards to the reunion issue nor does she have any idea what Axl's responses/reactions was to her predecessors tactics?? 

Seriously??   ::)

Hahaha

Its all in fun.  Little levity to pass a work day.

No, I'm not saying that at all.

Jarmo was asking about those other evil bastards before her who all tried to push a reunion on Axl.  Of course they did.  Its the obvious business move as a manager.

Beta, knowing him personally as she does, knows that's a non-starter. 

Didn't expect anything less from the spokesperson for all fans.



But not for the ultimate measure of how great the manager is, a big paycheck for a reunion tour. So it must be considered a failure?


And this is the fault of management because?




I think your "perfect" managers were the right people at the right time. If you look at being managers as a career, I'd say the two others have been pretty successful at their jobs. Excluding GN'R.




Tours? But a band is supposed to tour. It's no big deal! How is that an accomplishment? Everybody does it! I can't believe you'd list that as something worth mentioning. Not for you of all people.
Pay per view? Yeah, we had those. LA 2011, Chicago 2012, Las Vegas radio 2012..... No big deal to you.

Come on! You can't be serious. Are you?

Suddenly a tour is enough to be credited to a manager as something remarkable. But when GN'R did it in recent years, it's not.
You make no sense!

I think everybody can see how incoherent you are. Maybe the problem is your bias against the present.
 

Do you realize you're idolizing the managers who were there when the old band imploded?  You think managers should try to reunite the old band, that makes sense to you. But according to your "list", the two best managers were the ones that were there when that band line up ceased to exist. Ironic.

Also, wasn't Doug the manager still at some point in the early 2000s? So he was there for part of the period when GN'R didn't release albums. And there was a tour that was canceled in 2001... Sorry to have to tell you this... See there's been issues in the past too!



You would never say anything nice about the current. Knock it off.

I respect what those managers accomplished with the band.
You on the other hand have a hard time giving anything current any credit.



You have a knack for not making any sense. I'll give you credit for that.



If mankind didn't have a wish to improve, we still wouldn't have invented the wheel.
640k of memory should be enough... No need to improve.



No, but shouldn't you be man enough to admit you were wrong? Instead of a smart ass.... :)



I was there. It was a great show!



When I see somebody as incoherent and confused as this person, you just gotta shake your head.

A tour in 1992 = Yay, the band toured! Amazing!
A tour in 2012 = So what if they tour? Everybody does it.

What we got here is failure to make sense...



/jarmo

I was at the Camden show and had a wonderful time with my friend.  GNR shows end late.   If you haven't been following the band for the last 20+ years let me reiterate! They end late.  If they played for 90 minutes, you'd be out at 12:30.  They play longer than that.  If you are seeing them on a weekday, you better take off from work the next day.  This is how it is. 

I highly doubt the reason for no new record has anything to do with the Lebeis family.  Do you really think they keep Axl from recording?   Do they tear up the pages where he writes the lyrics?  Do they lock Axl out of the recording studios?   I highly doubt it. 


I will say and you may or may not agree but for me this holds true.  When I see Axl sing live, no matter what song, it is the most enjoyable form of live entertainment I can possibly experience in the year 2014.  The scale of fun is a 10 out of 10.  That is what is special to me.   

Stacked up side by side, I don't think its much of a debate.

We just have a fundamental difference on that one.  Certainly not one that's going to be solved with a few more zingers.

No, that's not how is.  That's how it is to see this particular band.  Every other band seems to operate on a more realistic schedule.

If there is another major act that says hey, so you have to take off work the next day, man the fuck up...I don't know them.

If your argument that its "how it is", there would be more examples of this sort of thing, no?  Its just how it is with this band.  Its not normal.

As for the show, yeah, I thought it was good.  I was able to walk right up to the side of the stage for the first 10 or so songs.  I thought he was very good that night.

 

No, I agree with you.  That part is on Axl.

Other than maybe a new act on the way up, I can't imagine a manager dictates that sort of thing.  Certainly not anyone on Axl's level at this point in his career. 

You seem to know your GNR.  I am not sure how you miscalculated what time you would be home?!!   I walked I to that particular show around 10:30 pm.  I also paid a lot to park close to the venue because I hate Camden!  :hihi:

Camden is rough, no doubt.  First time there to see Aerosmith, took a wrong turn on the way out.  Lost in Camden in the middle of the night : NO GOOD.

But I thought that venue was perfect for GNR.  The way you can hang in the lobby and have some drinks and then wander in at showtime.  Perfect.

If they come back to the area, I very much hope its there.

Off topic my friend but if the come back to the Garden State, House of blues Atlantic City is a must.  Stay at the Showboat for the night.  Trust me you will have a blast. 

You know what? Every thread... every discussion... all comes back to the same things....we are all to blame for that I guess


but thats all  because "Guns N Roses" has put out 12 songs in 20 years.... bottom line ...

That's what sucks .... do i lose sleep at night? no ... but it sure would be nice... and the fact that more doesnt seem to be any closer to coming out...


btw... i was very pissed i couldnt make it to the House of Blues AC !!!!!!!!!! considering I am there all the time ! but had a wedding that weekend

You're not wrong. 

15 songs in 23 years, and you would think by some of the responses we get that fans are asking the world of the band when rallying for the next album.  Huh.  :-\

Nobody would give a shit if Axl tweeted about miming or giraffes... which wouldnt turn in to a conversation about Slash, or Beta, or Stephanie Seymour...who is married and has 18 kids now...if there was a dvd , a video and album to talk about and enjoy instead

I saw Marilyn Manson there last year.  I agree, cool little venue.

Sure would be nice to have this and that, and that.... But the reality is that we don't.

So what makes you wake up every day and decide to login to a fan site to bitch and moan about what you don't have?


Also, I got a simple question for some of you. Have you noticed a certain bias against the current organization? Earlier I pointed out how it seems like old management teams are idolized for booking tours and Pay-per-Views, but when those things happen with the present organization, they are belittled as something normal that every band does. Would you say that kind of statements are fair and objective?

What it boils down to is this. Why is it so difficult to say something nice for a chance? We all know you're more than capable of complaining about what you don't have and what you "need". Are things really that bad for you in 2014 with a band that's actually been active for about four years now?

Remember last time people "needed" something and then it came out? A lot of the neediest people were the ones who apparently didn't need to album after all. Since they preferred the live versions of songs, the leaks and so on. Ironic.

 :)



/jarmo

yeah theyve been touring since 06 pretty consistently.... great... they also havent written one song in that time... ask Ron... he tells us that all the time

you might think thats great... but i think its a waste...


you want me to say something nice? ok... i have a blast every time ive gotten to see Axl perform... thats a fact

but the operation as a whole has a lot of leaks ...no pun intended


but how many times can we say this... and how man times can you defend it? ... and you are right... we should all just stop....

and for the record... im not the type who bashes Axl pseudo family for no reason or hates Chinese Democracy because it doesnt sound like Appetite

Ask Dj, he says the opposite.
Different points of view, different ways of seeing things. One guy wants to jam/write with the whole band, another might write a song idea on his own.




Would you agree that it's better to have the band touring and let other fans be able to experience that same feeling you did at the shows, than not?




My logic is different than yours.
Your logic: No tour -> Band must be in studio recording
My logic: No tour -> Band might be taking a break / band might be recording

To me it's simple.


/jarmo

I just think a lot of fans gas tanks are running on empty at this point.  For example, I spent a large chunk of my time at the various forums talking up and praising Chinese Democracy from the very first leaks in early '06, through the albums release, even up to the point where the 'real deal' Chinese Democracy tour finally hit the states in fall of 2011.  I even thought the UCAP tour was going to be a fun, intimate, way of closing out the Chinese Democracy era before looking to the next release, with is supposed to have already been recorded, per Axl.  But it didn't...It kept going....through the rest of 2012, then again in 2013, barring a surprise release in 2014, they're now going to continue to tour just for the sake of touring.

If I didn't have faith in Axl and the next album, and I didn't believe what is meant for the next album wasn't great, I wouldn't say anything.  I wouldn't care.  But I do.  As I said before, I'm not ashamed to say that I want more for Guns N' Roses than to just be a touring band, especially when you consider all the incredible unreleased tracks they have, just waiting to be released.  

well why do the two lead guitarists have such a varying take on the situation? seems odd to me

i absolutely am happy for anybody who gets to go and enjoy the shows like i do... and i never said i equate constant touring with being unable to record... why cant both be done ?

There it is, "waiting to be released".

So you'd rather wait for that to happen with nothing going on instead of waiting with some shows? I don't think anybody misses the 2003-2005 time period as a fan.




Not odd, different people talking about two different things.
Imagine this:
Dj: "Wow, this song idea is pretty cool, can't wait to play it for Axl!"
Ron: "We didn't write as a band yet".




Ah, so you see it. You don't think touring hinders recording.  : ok:



/jarmo

I never said it does hinder recording... still curious to know why both can't be done....

the results say Axl doesn't want to... that simple

Well, the band doesn't exactly have a stellar track record of being able to tour while also finishing up/negotiating an album release.  Remember 2006?

But, and I've said this before, better they continue to tour then do nothing at all, if those are the only two options.  I'm sure the shows will be great, and if they swing by Chicago, I'm totally there, as I've been on every other leg.  It's just a damn shame that an album that has been more or less done and dusted for several years now simply cannot find it's way to a release, whatever the reason.  

Who said that?

We're still busy with this lineup. We're gonna be busy ? we're gonna be busy all next year. We'll be putting out new stuff as soon as we can figure out what our deal is with labels, blah blah blah."

As to whether he feels that he bears any responsibility for the state of limbo he's in, Rose says: "You can say it's my fault, but to me it's like if you're on a plane and somebody trips you and the air marshal arrests you for falling ? like it's my fault for allowing somebody to trip me?"
Los Angeles Times - December 21st, 2011 (http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/articles/showarticle.php?articleid=185)


New music: "All the guys are writing, and we recorded a lot of songs over the years. We'll figure out what we feel best about. Chinese was done in piecemeal with one person here and one there at different times. Appetite for Destruction was the only thing written with lyrics and melody fitting the guitar parts at the same time. After that, I got a barrage of guitar songs that I was supposed to put words to, and I don't know if that was the best thing for Guns. I do want to lean more toward lyrics and melody."
USA Today - October 30th, 2012 (http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/articles/showarticle.php?articleid=183)




/jarmo

 I remember this interview.  I love how Axl did a classic Seinfeld "Yada yada yada" over what could have been the most interesting part of the interview, giving us a good idea as to exactly what stands between the fans and a new Guns album.

At this point I will believe it when I see it.... despite ur unwavering loyalty... you have to understand that no ?

Nobody here really minds if you don't believe something unless you see it.

But why do you need to keep reminding us that you're not seeing it, almost daily? We know!
That whole "I keep complaining about shit I have no control over because I want the best for the band" doesn't make sense. It's not constructive. It's just an easy way to regurgitate your recycled emotions from years ago.




The record company?



/jarmo

In what way?  Are they just flat-out refusing to put out another new GNR record?  Seems kinda harsh.

Maybe the label is holding out for a reunion, making any other guns release difficult?

Who knows. It's a damn shame that all that music is still unheard :(

No, they don't have to be refusing a release. Maybe they just haven't agreed with the artist on what/how things need to be done, for example.

In an optimal world for musicians and fans, the record company would just put out and support any record they were delivered and do what the musicians asked. Unfortunately, instead they seem more interested in polishing their quarterly numbers for their stockholders.


/jarmo

Kind of depressing that, in a sense, GNR are slaves to the label getting their shit together before they can get this next album out.  Screws the band and the fans, but hey, what do they care?  Imagine Dragons are making them money.  Weak.  ::)

It's just a possible scenario.

But it's apparent Axl and the band doesn't want to repeat the Chinese Democracy experience.

Rock albums don't sell like they used to. Albums don't sell like they used to. You used to get a song on the radio, a video on MTV, tour and your album would sell more. Nowadays? Radio plays Mumford & Sons, MTV is full of reality shows, people spend more money on Frappuccinos than music...



/jarmo

Yeah, that's the thing.  As much as I want the next album, it's clear that in no way is Axl willing to put another record in the same situation as Chinese Democracy, only to be abandoned the the moment it is released.  I wonder, what assurances is Axl looking for that they will not give him?  What is the correct way to market a hard rock album in 2014? 

Don't know anything about marketing and all that.

But from what I've seen, it seems like records are marketed for "everybody" and then considered failures because they don't sell what's expected. Maybe this has been done, I don't know, but how about you aim the sales to the fans you have and don't worry about all the Starbucks visiting Mumford & Sons fans? ;)

I think that's what independent companies/artists do. They know their fans, they're not trying to sell platinum and compete against Justin Bieber.


/jarmo

and for the record... I'm not the type who points things like this out to pseudo fans for no reason but referring to GNR management as 'Axl pseudo family' IS bashing.

Did anyone ever stop to think UMG may have awarded GNR a contract that includes another album, but the deal was agreed to when physical cd's were still a lucrative business?   Now, they may have crunched the numbers to know the deal is outdated so they don't want a new album.   

Gypsy, I have always loved your posts, but I am compelled to chime in here. Beta and her beautiful kids are not related by blood in any way to Axl Rose, but they ARE his family, his "pseudo-family."

I don't think any one means any disrespect by using this term.

We are all fans here.

Well there is a place where people still buy albums, in fact rock albums

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-26139327

Maybe Axl should move to England   :smoking:

I buy a handful of CDs every week.  :smoking:

yeah seriously... pseudo is by definition who they are... I didn't mean it as an insult

the same way some posters get attacked for always being negative... some posters need to chill out with the defense lawyer syndrome

Maybe Axl's reluctance has something to do with he knows that even tho the market is so different today... that if it doesnt sell like its 1992 he will be bashed for it anyway, even tho its not in any way possible sell like the old band did

just a thought

Jarmo, you keep reminding people that complaining about a new album won?t make it come any quicker.  True, but also pretending everything?s a ok, and that several years is the normal gestation period for an album (where we know (not actual knowledge but have been led to believe by pieces of information) most of the songs, in one form or another already exist), doesn?t really advance the ball either, does it?

Also, dismissing the fact that the current lineup, which has been stable and together for several years (200+ shows), has yet to write one note of one original song, also doesn?t move things along.  That?s a fact, confirmed by band members.  Sure, DJ may have written a riff or a lyric or two, but the band hasn?t recorded anything or sat together in a room to record.  Chalking that up to, well not everyone needs to be together to record an album, just glosses over the issue.

Your position seems to be to anyone that questions what?s going on: you don?t know the ?facts? (which, btw, will never be revealed to you), you?re wrong, you should be unconditionally happy with what you?ve got and you?re just a negative troll and not a true fan.

Sorry, I?m not going to have blind faith that things are on the up and up?and you can?t really fault people who want to take a see it when they believe it approach.  You quoted Axl?s comments from 2011 and 2012 about a new album and having to work things out with the label, blah, blah, blah.  What?s happened in the intervening 2 to 3 years?  We don?t know?and we?re left to speculate.  It?s either 100% the label?s fault, some combination of label plus GnR, or nothing?s wrong (and stop saying that it is, troll). 

All we got are Axl?s tweets on the Danish Zoo, which don?t shed much light on the topic.  But we?re not just going to wait and see what happens?that defeats the whole purpose of a forum. 

I'm not pretending. Are you?

My opinion is, if something is out of your hands, it's waste of time to complain about it year after year. It just makes that person sound like a whiny person. Who wants to be around those?
Maybe you're not aware of this, but we've been here before. Those years before Chinese came out. Exactly the same. Except there was no tours to talk about. No official web site. No Axl tweets. I'm talking about years like 2003-2005 now...


We're not talking about some kind of protests for human rights, against racism or something here. There's a lot of injustices in the world, yet not having a new GN'R album isn't really on that list.



Who's dismissing anything?

Some of you use that single quote as some kind of reason why nothing has been done regarding the next album. I simply don't agree.




No, my position is: If you got nothing nice to say about anything, you probably need to change your point of view because that kind of existence seems quite depressing. These same people who "question" things, aren't interested in hearing anything else than their point of view. I offer them a discussion, different point of views and what happens? I get attacked. 






I posted those quotes because it seems like some people "forgot". Those were his words about the issue. Do some of you believe him? Of course not.


Anyway, we're getting really off topic here. The update wasn't about this. It was about thanking all of us fans. And some of you felt targeted because whoever posted the update pointed out that some "trolls" like to frequent the GN'R Facebook page.



/jarmo

True.

But at some point, you pick yourself back up.  You don't spend wasted time just laying there feeling sorry for yourself.

I posted those quotes because it seems like some people "forgot". Those were his words about the issue. Do some of you believe him? Of course not.


Anyway, we're getting really off topic here. The update wasn't about this. It was about thanking all of us fans. And some of you felt targeted because whoever posted the update pointed out that some "trolls" like to frequent the GN'R Facebook page.



/jarmo


[/quote]

Fair enough.  Back on point.  The update wasn?t just about thanking the fans.  It was also about sending a big FU to the ?loud, obnoxious? individuals, whom you refer to as ?a little clique of internet trolls.?

If it is such a little clique of trolls, why even bother mentioning them?  I think it?s up for debate whether it was intended for a small group, or whether it?s aimed at anyone that isn?t 100% on message.

You seem to paint many of us with a broad brush where any criticism (whether of the true bullshit variety or legitimate comments about the direction/future of the band) are instantly labeled trolls and not ?true fans.?

To me, it seems like the same broad brush was used in the FB update.

I agree with Jarmo.  This site is rated "G" compared to the hate spewed on other GNR fan sites.  There are some people that say after day post in threads at other sites full of insults and attacks.  Some people also do it on Facebook.  It gets to the point where if you hate the band that much, you shouldn't be in the community.  It's not healthy for the the fan base, nor the individual wasting their own time posting.   Axl was talking about hateful trolls.  He wasn't talking about any of the people posting in this thread because I do believe behind the constructive criticism, there is a passionate fan in all of us.  If deep down you don't have that passion, move on, life is too short.   

Its not rocket science, I don't think.  The rest of the entire industry doesn't seem to just be a constant state of wonder of anything can ever get done.  Clearly, it can be done.

I would imagine step one is doing some proper interviews with people.  That takes, what, a phone call?  An hour of your time?

And an interview where you talk about your band, and your music, and what you will be doing.  You get people focused on your work.    

But not yet another rambling rendition of how hard life is and how its a constant struggle against the forces of evil.  That "woe is me" tale is not only long past tired at this point, its for damn sure not getting anyone excited about your latest endeavor.

This is my band.  I'm excited to play with these guys.  Here is what we did.  Check it out.

The usual misdirection point to cut this conversation off before it starts tends to start out "It's not 1991 anymore...".  But the topic is promotion and not a history lesson.  Just because albums don't sell like 20 years ago doesn't meant the same basic, fundamental concepts of promotion are extinct.

It's about want to.  

Agreed.

I see these guys on other sites with profile sigs about how the last GNR show was 7.17.93.  So why the hell are you still here? 

All true.

And just...why?  That's what it comes down to.  Why give negative people that don't like you and never will your time?  Fuck 'em.  Lost causes that don't matter. 

It muddles up what should be a good message.  "Hey, we're getting back out on the road.  See you out there in 2014!"  Done.

But not, "Hey, we're getting back out on the road.  Which I know some of you out there don't want to see, but that's just too damn bad.  You're just a bunch of god damn idiots anyway.  See the rest of you out there in 2014!"

From my point of view, there's many reasons why you'd bring an issue up.

I'll give you an example. There's people who will register on a fan forum, post shit and attack other posters. Sometimes followed with a "Ban me if you want, I don't care" message. What happens next? Some of them move on to the next forum and go on about how they were innocently banned by some evil dictator for "speaking the truth".

You can ignore it, or you can say "look, we know what you're doing and if you get kicked out, don't say you weren't warned". You can't hide behind the "I'm innocent" excuse after that.

Sometimes attack is the best defense. ;)


Not really.
There's two kinds of criticism: Constructive and pointless complaints for the sake of complaining.

Guess which one gets boring after a few years....

The whole true fans thing is a sore spot for some. I know that.
It's almost like questioning somebody's manhood (not talking about genitals here)!  :hihi: It can be hilarious at times.

Be honest. Don't you think it's a bit "worrying" if somebody would mistake you for not being a fan because of what you constantly say? Meaning, if you hardly ever say anything nice about your favorite band, why is it surprising if somebody asks you if you're actually a fan of the band at that particular point in time?

If you take two people, one is a fan, the other not, and they both pretty much complain about how the band sucks. How do you tell them apart? Because the other swears he's a fan?




/jarmo

I agree 100% with this sentiment.  But its also up to the band to feel comfortable targeted their true fans and not getting discouraged when your albums today don't sell like they did over 20 years ago.  Comments like, whats the point of making new records these days is deflating to the true fans who've been here forever supporting this thing.

You just proved my point (I think).  Never have I (or other like-minded posters like D-X, Jaeball, and Princess Leia?apologies if I?m incorrectly lumping you guys in with me) complained about how this band sucks.  Ever.  In fact, a lot of my posts talk about wanting this band?with this lineup?to succeed, and how I think they can best achieve that.

You seem to interpret that, and any constructive criticism, as people complaining about ?how the band sucks.?  This is where I?m getting the broad brush from.  But now you seem to be saying constructive criticism is ok?or at least tolerated for the purposes of discussion.

Or maybe I took offense to you questioning my manhood? ;D

I must've missed all those constructive parts in the posts!

I don't see how saying something that was done in 1992 for example is great while the same done in 2012 is nothing special.
Is that constructive?
I don't see victimizing yourself every time somebody speaks out against a few bad apples is constructive.


Ok, you want the band to succeed. I think the majority of the fans does. How are you gonna make that happen?
The lame excuse is to say "I can't make the band succeed". Will posting things that make people question whether or not you're a fan of GN'R in 2014 make the band succeed? Of course not.


Edited to add: An example. The band announces shows. That's met with "we want a new album!". How is that helping the band succeed?

Do you think everybody says they want the band to succeed is actually meaning it? Or could it just an excuse to get what they want? Let's say they want an album, so everything else the band does is not a good idea in their opinion. In their opinion, the only way to succeed is to release a new album. How is that a guarantee for success? For years we heard about Axl needs to release Chinese Democracy to succeed. He did it and nothing changed for the people who want him to succeed..... They just kept finding things that were wrong and bad.



I don't know why some are so upset to begin with. Maybe they want to be upset? Every fan should know by now that the GN'R ship doesn't always sail the shortest way from port to port. We all know that. Yet some get upset that they get a longer cruise than their personal preference... Just enjoy the cruise and relax! Occasionally there might be some icebergs in the way, but don't worry, it'll get there.

If you don't believe in that, maybe you need a different ship... :)


And since you probably forgot, sure it'd be awesome to have more albums out. But we don't and no matter how hard you bang your head against the wall won't change it.






/jarmo

So the label gets the lion's share of record sales, but the artist is responsible for marketing?  I'm no industry guru, but I would imagine that most record label contracts say that the label handles marketing.  Isn't the point of having a label that the artist can focus on the music and performing while the label handles the business side (financing, production, marketing, distribution, etc.)?

It seems like some people expect that to be the case... I mean, Axl gets attacked for not doing interviews. Yet he's done quite a few since the album came out. Maybe not every late night TV show or afternoon talk shows. But he's done interviews.

Did you guys hear about the issues Def Leppard is having with Universal Music? Never was a fan of them, but it's kinda telling that even they have issues with the label...





/jarmo

True.

But Axl calls 'Rolling Stone' tomorrow and says he wants to sit down for an interview.  They jump on it.  SHit, they probably put him on the cover.

What does the label have to do with any of that?  And why would an artist not take some ownership of the process to promote his own work? 

Axl seems to be all over the map with this stuff.  He likes to position himself as this relentless warrior that stands up for what he believes in.  Yet at the same time seems to shuffle around with his head down a la Charlie Brown while the sad music plays. 

Well...which is it?

Exactly right.  Jarmo loves that strawman argument though. 

And you spend your time knokcing that down for the 50th time instead of actually talking about the original issue.  Every point raised is met with how you are a god damn idiot thinking your "complaining" is anything but a waste of time.  The point you tried to raise is ignored.



To be honest, I see no evidence of this. 

I've been coming here literally every day for the past 4-5 months.  I have yet to find an area where any sort of criticism is deemed valid in his eyes.  And I have asked him point blank several times to give me one example of what he would consider a valid beef.  He just dances around it and answers your questions with more questions.

At the end of the day, he can't ever bring himself to say "no, that's a fair point".  I just have not seen it.  Have you?  Has anyone?  I have like 400 some posts in 4 months, but I've never made a good point.  So either I just can't catch a break, or he is just simply uninterested in that line of conversation.

Why are you talking about me when you can't handle a discussion with me?

You ignored my post and pretended nothing happened. And here you are talking about me again!
Attacks on me as a person, instead of what I say. Business as usual. Thank you, drive through. :)


I've told numerous times that I can understand being "upset" about the lack of a new album. As a fan, I get it. What I haven't seen is any good explanations to the questions/points I brought up....


I've seen a pattern over the years. Some fail to answer simple questions, make little or no sense to me, yet when I ask for clarifications, I'm ignored only to be followed by posts about "he did this, he did that". I've seen a few examples of this behavior. Somebody starts talking, and then goes away, comes back later like nothing happened.



So, D-GenerationX, what do you want to accomplish with the complaining? Just one very simple question.




/jarmo

That's your false premise.

At no point have I (or anyone) ever taken the position that we are going to make some homerun point on an internet message board during a slow work day that is going to spur Axl or Team Brazil into some change of course.

Its a phony argument, never proposed by anyone but you when you don't like a conversation's tone.  Simple as that.

It's an honest question!

You do something for a reason. Sometimes the reason is that you want to accomplish something. So, in this case, you don't want to accomplish anything, because you know you can't. At least we know that!

So, why do you do it?




/jarmo

I am a fan having a conversation about the band with other fans. 

You just don't like the tone of some of it, so you would rather redirect the dialogue to this tired nonsense.  You should change you username to Straw Man.

So the reason why you complain about GN'R is because you like conversations. How come you seem to ignore my posts when I'm having a conversation with you?

I recall asking you why you hail a manager for booking a tour in the 90s while when management does the same in recent years you think it's no big deal because every band does it. Never got a good answer on that one. Surely you must understand that that kind of posts might confuse me. And make somebody think you might not be so "objective" after all..




I don't like pointless things.

I'm happy with mine, it's my actual name.
Maybe you should change yours to TiredNonsenseX.... ;)



And did anybody discuss any of the points I tried to bring up earlier? Not yet right? Only the "he said" stuff was said.... Funny for people wanting to discuss things.


/jarmo

I don't think it is a phony argument, but rather a legitimate question.  Not in the one-time expression of a criticism, but in the reiteration after reiteration of a criticism.  I understand being frustrated by not having more new music.  I understand wondering whether or not the current management team is the best for the job given the lack of managerial experience. 

But, what I don't understand is the need to reiterate over and over again these points.  Once the point is made, what is to be gained by making that point over and over again?  Especially if you admit that you have no control over the situation.

That is one thing that has befuddled me.

Ali

I have no doubt my posts confuse you.  Of course, I don't have your incentive to tow the company line.

As for the manager discussion, I just don't see the need for daily affirmation that you do, I suppose.  I fail to see how me not here offering e-high fives to Team Brazil matters.  Nor how failing to go out of my way to credit them for doing their stated job means I (or anyone) is some sort of enemy of the state.




So the irony is totally lost on you that this constant repetitive lecture I have to endure is the same exact argument you are making towards me and the band's current operation?

Can't I just as easily ask you what you think all this constant correction of what you see as unfair behavior is getting you?  Are you getting the vibe that you are wearing me down?  Or that I am slowly coming around to your way of thinking that everything is swell?

I find that hard to believe.

You don't like pointless things?  These past few posts are a pointless thing.  Nothing new has been said here in the past half hour that we have not covered (in some cases, seemingly word for word) several times now.

Its time to table this particular discussion, I think.  And I suspect others reading you and I going round and round in circles over the same points aren't all that knocked out with it either.

But are the only things you ever talk about in life things you can directly control or influence?  That seems unlikely, in my view.

For example, a fan of a sports team talks about the team's operation with other fellow fans.  But at no time are we under the impression we are the team's general manager.

Under this premise, the only people that can talk politics are politicians.  The only one that can talk movies are directors.

Does that make sense?

Part of the frustration is that we don't know if or when.  With CD I always felt it would eventually see the light of day.  Now I'm not so sure, and I'm not so sure Axl cares anymore.  And if he doesn't, thats his choice.  But if thats the case, it would be nice to know so that I don't wait in vain.  A new GN'R album means a lot to us, but if we're never gonna get it, stop keep us on a string.  Throw us a bone!  We can handle the truth.  Enough about giraffes, tell us whats going on.

Your best post ever.

Why thank you. :)

Just answer the question!


You give credit to old managers for doing their job yet fail to do the same for current management. For the same thing. Touring!
Why is that? I'm not asking you to dance. So, just answer the question. It's simple!





What is me commenting on things I don't agree with getting me? A discussion. I'm just offering a different point of view.



It's only pointless because you refuse to answer me, I'm trying to understand your logic here. I'm trying to get you to explain things that don't make sense to me.

Because I see a person who says he'll be the first to admit he was wrong, who says he supports the band and all these things, but I see little evidence to back up that kind of statements. Sorry!




So you're one of those people who assumes that unless you're told something, the opposite must be true?
You need reaffirmation that a musician cares about, his music.

What if you turned it around? Unless he says he doesn't, he does care..... Why doesn't that work for you? It seemed to have worked between 1993 and 2008.... Why not now?



/jarmo

What are you looking for here?

But I'm tired of this, so here goes :

Huge, HUGE ups to how Team Brazil has scheduled touring dates for 2014.  Job well done.

We good?




Indeed.

I just think this particular line of questioning has run its course.  We've both made our points, both are unlikely to change our stances.



So am I because I don't know what to tell you.

We have a difference of opinion on what constitutes "support" and it will never change.  We are better served accepting that reality and moving on to other things.  Re-litigating this particular argument day after day is futile.




He could be making a better case for himself than he has been these past few years though.  I think that's a fair statement.

Consistency!



Even with the sarcasm, that's quite big of you.

By the way, I wasn't talking about the upcoming tour, I was talking about past completed tours.... But glad you can give credit for all management people who have completed tours instead of just select ones that you are fond of




I personally don't put down something I support for no reason other than I want something else out of it. For example, putting down a band for touring because you want an album, isn't my way of supporting a band.






But you've seen the opposite, when he did.... So isn't it fair to say that since that always didn't work to his advantage, it's natural that he might be more cautious this time?



/jarmo

I'd say I find them more mutually exclusive conversations.

If the topic is touring, yes, its obviously encouraging that they been out there just about every 2 years since the last album came out. 

If the topic is a new album, its obviously discouraging news that nothing seems to be on the horizon.

I am of the opinion that you can think both things at the same time and still be a supportive fan.  I see both as just honest assessments of each situation.  Being bummed about one aspect does not affect overall fandom or constitute any sort of lack support of the band overall,  At least in my view.




Absolutely fair.

But just think of it as a high school debate team subject, just for example's sake.  The format is that both sides are given the same argument and one is assigned the "for" stance, and the other the "against."

So if the given topic is Axl's interest in future albums, given all he has said and done (or in some cases, not done) since the last album came out, don't you feel the "against" argument is easier one to make?

The "for" argument seems like a way uphill battle.  And I'm not sure that basing that argument around the concept "hey, he could be...never know" is a particularly strong argument.

But try and think of it more as a snapshot in time argument, that time being as of right now.  The "against" argument is not in stone and good for alltime.  But right now?  Yeah, it is the credible argument. 

No, that's not the point I'm making at all.  I'm not talking about only talking about things you can control or influence.  I'm talking about not talking over and over about the same points when I can't control anything.  That's what I don't get.  I understand making the point and getting your perspective and your frustrations out.  I don't understand doing that same thing over and over again.

Ali

I believe I've been making the same point though, right?.

That constant re-litigation of the same old semantic fights are futile and should be tabled.  Those were exact words I used.

I'm not sure I understand.  I didn't see those words used in your responses to my posts.

Ali

It wasn't a direct response to you, it was to Jarmo.  But the point is the same, regardless.

O.k.  Well, I disagree.  I don't think the particular point Jarmo made and I picked up on has really been discussed.  I realize it can come across as an attack and a criticism, but it's not meant to be at all.  I want new music as much as anyone, but if the Chinese Democracy saga taught me anything, getting frustrated about the lack of new music, the lack of even information from the band, is futile because I can't personally change the situation.  Therefore, I've let go of the frustration and the subsequent need to vent and express that frustration.  I guess I struggle to understand how any other fan who went through the Chinese Democracy saga (not you in particular), could still be at that point of frustration, and why they still express it over and over again.  By about 2004, that felt like just banging my head up against a wall.

I'm just trying to understand the other viewpoint, that's all.

Ali

I'm in shoulder shrug mode more than anything.  I don't really expect any new album is ever really forthcoming.

To be perfectly honest, future leaks are all we might ever have.  Not ideal, obviously, but its the only real scenario I can see playing out.

Well I can only speak for myself here. I?m not frustrated because of the lack of music. But I do have many unanswer questions. For example. I think the band should have long term goals. Do they have them as a band? Are they going to spend the rest of their lives touring and performing mostly AFD songs?  If the record company wants a reunion and Axl doesn?t. Why isn?t Axl trying to make a deal with another record company? Why Axl spent a lot of time and money making what is it known as The Vault if he is not willing to share it with the world at some point? Axl has said in the chats that making CD was a nightmare for him. So I understand that he is not willing to have another nightmare. If he doesn?t want to do this anymore I?m ok with it. But he has to make up his mind the sooner the better.

A reunion doesn?t solve anything for me if they don?t make at least one album. Will they? Why do I say this? Because they have already played all the albums they made. Sure the set list must have some hits. But I think we all agree they are perfectly capable to make amazing music. Unless there is a one time only reunion like Pink Floyd did. In that case there is no need for a new album.

No, being bummed about not having a new album doesn't mean anything regards of what kind of fan you are. It's the acts that follow.
Like I said, a lot of negative comments, from people who only want a new album, are the result of that. That's the only thing they care about. That's the cause of all their negativity.

Or one of them. There's probably more causes that we don't need to get into...  :hihi:






Again, I think this is a matter of how you see things. Sure, it's easy to say he doesn't care if that's how you view the situation. If he doesn't say he does, he must not care!
I don't see it that way. As a person who followed GN'R for a while, I'd never make that assumption that he doesn't care about his music. To me it sounds ridiculous. He didn't give up last time after all those battles.




/jarmo

All very well said.

I don't really view the current guys as a viable band in the traditional sense of the term.  Its basically a touring band.  And I agree with you that if that is the plan going forward, no, there is no need for a new album.  If all you are going to do is be a nostalgia type act, you already have the songs you will need to make that work.  And really, it will work for the rest of your days.  You will always be able to sell a Guns N' Roses playing Guns N' Roses songs with Axl Rose singing.  In truth, you could replace every other person on stage and that would still work.

Even though I wouldn't mind if it happened, I have never once rallied for a reunion (Axl, Slash, Duff).  Not once.  But if this band is just going to be a touring band from here on out, with no real aspirations of putting out another record, it's pretty hard to understand the what the point of trying to hold the current lineup together is.  In a touring band, sans Axl Rose, everyone is expendable.  Everyone is replaceable and no one outside these forums would bat an eye.

Is that you being supportive again?  :P

A band is not a band but they are basically a kind of band?
A majority of the band was part of making the record called Chinese Democracy. You can check the album yourself.

There's bands where one person writes most of the music and lyrics, that's not a band? If Jagger/Richards write all the music for a record by the Stones, does it mean they're not a band since those other guys aren't involved? Are they just a touring band because they didn't release a new studio album since 2005?




/jarmo

I'd put myself in that same boat.

I also don't push the reunion idea because the bottom line is that Axl hates Slash.  So long as you know that, it pretty much ends that conversation before it starts, which is why I've never had much time for it.

Agreed.  It's like, I'd love to win the lottery too, but I'm not going to talk about how awesome it would be 24/7, completely neglecting reality and the way things are.  Seems like an idiotic waste of time to me.  Same goes for GNR reunionists.

But like I said, talk is nice, but we've seen zero concrete evidence to show us this band is moving in the direction of putting the next album out.  And even though I think he acts pretty goofy publicly, the one I feel for the most is DJ Ashba. He joined Guns 5 years ago with the obvious intention of helping write & record new music, as well as tour.  Other than his solos, we have no reason to believe we'll ever see any of his work with GNR released officially, be it songs he wrote or putting his touches on older Chinese era tracks.  Nada.

Well, run down this list with me and tell me what I have wrong.  I'll hear you out.

- no new album on the horizon, short term or long term
- confirmation from current band members they have yet to write a note together
- little visible enthusiasm to ever start writing, recording, or releasing anything

What we do have, is a group of guys that hit the road every 2 years to play basically the same 20-25 songs, including covers and each guy's own solo or non-GNR material.

Of those 20-25 songs they play each night, the lion's share of them were written, recorded, and originally performed by other people.  Even of the 4-5 that make the setlist from the last album, the majority of the guys that wrote, recorded and performed those songs are gone too.  Bucket, gone.  Robin, gone.  Paul, gone.  Brain, gone.  And the few flourishes here and there that guys like Bumble and Frank had cut and pasted over top of the existing songs weren't exactly crucial contributions.  And Ashba is not on there at all.

As both I and a few others have said, you could replace literally every other human being on that stage other than Axl Rose and the show goes on without missing a beat.

Add that all up, the current operation is a touring band, for the most part.  At least until we are shown otherwise.

Not to nitpick, but The Stones put out a 2 song EP (Doom & Gloom, One More Shot) before launching the current tour. One of which got nominated for a Grammy for best rock song.   GNR can't even do that much.

I feel for both Ashba and Bumble.  

They seem to be the only ones in the fold that want to start creating new stuff.  Or, at the very least, clear the deck of the already done CD sessions so they can eventually create new stuff.

I think if you had to handicap the next guys to drop out of this thing, you start with those two.

Yep. 
 
And I thought 'Doom & Gloom' was a pretty good tune.  'One More Shot', in all fairness, is your boilerplate Keith riff song.  It apparently came from a session he hoped to turn into another solo album and frankly, sounds it.

That said, they did record and release them.  The current guys on that stage played on the tracks.  And they played them on every show of that tour.  GNR can't boast that.

Axl and the gang are going back on the road.  One song can't go out on iTunes...why?  Because they don't want to.  We can dress it up and try and change the subject 7 different times in hopes of stifiling that uncomfortable conversation, but that's what it comes down to.  They could, but don't want to.

Agreed.  No ones buying albums?  Singles are where it's at now?  Then release a 2-3 song EP prior to the tour.  God knows there's enough in the can to do so. 

I'm tired of people falling back on the "Well, we really don't know what's going on behind the scenes" nonsense.  Where there's a will there's a way, and thus far I've see no evidence of a will.

What do you base this on? And define short and long term.
No new album? But we know songs exist.


Confirmation from other band members that they have written songs on their own for GN'R.




Well, I get that you'd want that but considering the past and how it backfired, maybe the more cautious approach has its reasons. I know you don't wanna hear that.




But I said majority. Axl, Dizzy, Chris and Tommy were there. Richard joined in 2002.

Again, song writing credits to define a band? Matt Sorum, Gilby Clarke or Dizzy had zero song writing credits on the songs they performed on the Use Your Illusion tour. Was that an issue? No.  





So? Just because he was there since day one and is the most recognized member of the band doesn't mean the others aren't part of the band.




Wasn't that for their best of album?

Here's a question for you. Let's say GN'R put out a live track for download. Would that make the band a real band overnight?



/jarmo

Agreed.

Then you have the evil record company angle.  So if Axl said he wanted to put out a single song, they step in say over their dead fucking body will he do that.  

But, if you are willing to believe the "we don't know what's going on behind the scenes" bit, I suppose its not that big a leap to go ahead and assume that part too.  Why not?  It seems to be easier than admit the apparent grimness of a situation.  I just don't know anyone buys any of that unless you REALLY want to for reasons of spin and/or total deflection.

It was initially released as a two song EP on itunes, then put on "Grrr" when it was physically released.  Crazy right?

I don't know what you mean about the "real band over night" thing, but my initial point was that these guys, especially DJ & Bumble, are being under-utilized if they are only to be part of a GNR touring band going forward.  Even they would tell you as much in a moment of honesty.  Without putting  a real mark on new music, moreso for DJ since Ron appeared on Chinese, there's no real reason for casual fans to bond with them.  Only hardcore fans on the forums care about Ballad of Death.  Most people at the shows have no idea what they're hearing.  He could be improvising for all they know & care.

I do not see an album in 2014 or 2015 (short term).  Based on the general attitude and statements made by Axl, I don't see one after that either (long term).

Do songs exist?  Who the hell knows?  Yeah, we have been told they exist.  People also tell me there is a God in heaven.  But neither can be shown to me, so its really a matter of faith on both counts.  You have to want to believe.  But I'm not sure you can get super salty like you do when someone questions either.
 



Ron has told us on more than one occasion they have not written a note together in his now 8 years in the fold.

Also pretty consistently tells us there are no plans for any sort of release, so best not to think its on the way.




I would again point to Ron's own statements.  I have no reason to believe he is lying to us, and I sure don't have anything I can point to that refutes his claims.




With the exception of Gilby who joined mid tour under the dire circumstance of Izzy suddenly quitting, the other guys on stage played on the 30 tracks that were released before that tour.  Axl, Slash, Duff, Matt, Dizzy are on those 30 tracks.  Even on the pre-UYI tracks they play, you still have the majority of the creative forces behind them on stage in the form of Axl, Slash, and Duff.  

Compare that to the current situation.  Axl, Dizzy, Tommy, and Chris meet that same standard, at least for the CD songs.  The lead guitarist (DJ) is quite literally not on one track.  Bumble and Frank had a few flourishes shoehorned over top of existing songs to give the impression of collaboration.  In actual fact, they weren't really involved in their creation.

I don't see this as a realistic comparison, for those reasons.




They are part of the current touring band, yes.

"I was going to go see Guns N' Roses when they came around.  But then I heard DJ Ashba and/or Bumblefoot dropped out, so I'm out too" is not a thing that is said by anyone with any sort of regulatity.  

That's the point being made here.  



No, not really.  I would agree with you.

But a track with a (Rose/Ashba/Thal/Stinson) liner note sure would.  Hell, even a new track written by guys like Bucket, Robin, and Brain would qualify, provided the current guys on the stage played on the track.  Its not as ideal as the first example, but its a step in the right direction, isn't it?

Yep.

And I actually think both men have talent.  I know there are segments that shit on both of them, but I am not in their number.  I'd like to see what they could do collaborating with Axl, who I also obviously think is very talented.

Without knowing any details regarding that, and since I don't own a crystal ball. But speaking from experience. I wouldn't lose hope of 2014 in February. You could've made the same statement in February or even May 2008, and look what happened...




Yes.



When the guy you hold responsible for not wanting to release music talks about song titles and so on, it's kinda credible source of information.... Don't you think?

 



It still doesn't mean that much, at the end of the day.

Who wrote November Rain. Axl Rose. It wasn't the whole band writing the song in one room. Nothing new.

There's no simple answer for your quest for the ultimate GN'R album. Because everybody wants different things. Some want the best possible songs on the album, no matter when it was recorded or who was in the band at the time. Others want this current line up to be in a room and write the whole album together to make them a "real" band.

Imagine this, GN'R puts out an album with the tracks that didn't make it onto Chinese Democracy. Great songs, like Chinese. Fans enjoy them. But will that be good for some? Of course not, there'll be people saying it's not by the current band.

Another scenario, band goes into a studio, records an album from scratch, Bumble gets to write with the while band. Album comes out, great stuff, fans enjoy it. And then some wonder why the Chinese era tracks weren't released...




I wouldn't say he's lying, but he's one band member. None of the things said over the years refute what somebody else has said. You only focus on Ron.






I am comparing.

Sure, they played on the Illusion tracks. But Axl, Tommy, Richard, Bumblefoot, Frank, Dizzy and Chris also plays on the Chinese Democracy album! Only one of the current band members isn't on the album because he joined after its release. Just like Gilby.

Why do you think Frank and Bumble were on the album? Because they're in the band!

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Bumble say he created his own parts?




I do, because most of the current band is featured on the latest GN'R album. You can't deny it. Just because Robin, Buckethead,, Paul and Brain had a part in it too, doesn't mean the others didn't.

Most of current Guns N' Roses performs on the Chinese Democracy album. Just like most of the Illusion line ups performed on those albums.




Because this isn't a Dj Ashba or Bumblefoot fan site. But to say nobody goes to see GN'R because of those guys? I wouldn't make that statement.




Once again, so it's who records it. And as I pointed out, the most of this band already appear on Chinese.... With the exception of Dj. ;)



/jarmo

I absolutely feel you can write off 2014, just based on their already known touring plans.  Its not going to leave a lot of time for studio time and finishing touches, and I don't think its fair to expect them to do that.  Its not terribly realistic to think they will tour for most of the year and then get back in the studio the next week.  They would need time to decompress and I don't think that's some unreasonable stance.

The unknown would be 2015.  But, I would say I am as unconvinced I will have to admit being wrong if an album comes out as I am unconvinced you or anyone else would be forthcoming with an admission of being wrong on 1/1/16 if nothing has been done.  But, that's also part of the beauty of being a waffler that never takes a firm stance.  Its hard to be wrong when you won't give an opinion.



All theoretical and potential. 

My personal feeling for years has been that songs exist in various forms of completion, and if further work needed to be done, its most probably vocals.  But, I recognize I can no more prove that than you (or anyone) could disprove it.  We just don't know.

 

All true.

But let's get real here.  In either example, the dissenting group is far less important and I'd also argue less vocal.  If you are still hanging in there in 2014, you want new stuff.  Yes, you may have a preference how that comes about.  So much so that you will have no time for the other option?  Seems hard to believe.

For example, I have said for years that the best case scenario is a new album done by the current band.  But I also recognize that Axl might not want to scrap all that has been done entirely.  I can respect that.  In that case, I would say it makes more sense if you have the current guys re-record a song if you feel that strongly about it. 
But, if he felt they should be released as is with guys like Bucket or Robing on there, so be it.

At the end of the day, having something in some form beats the shit out of having nothing.  I may have my own opinions on preference, but not to the point it has to be my way or the highway.  And I think trying to pretend that because there is a segment that will not be happy regardless is an excuse to not try ANY of those approaches is a phony argument.  That's just excuse making to explain away the inactivity.

The argument that you are going to make something for 100% of the fans, but 10% might not like it so why even bother, is a poor one, in my view.     


I greatly appreciate his candor.  I'll take his more definitive answers about what our expectations should be over vague crap like "don't know, we'll see" or "not my call, that's up to Axl."  I'd also argue that last answer doenst' do much to refute the claim this is not really a band in the conventional sense.

Ron is basically telling us not to hold our breath.  And he usually says he knows that's not the answer we want, but he feels he should be honest.  As a fan, I appreciate that.



As I believe I said, Frank and Bumble are on there to give the impression of collaboration.  Basically, so people such as yourself can make this flimsy argument you are making.
 
Take Ron's contribution to 'I.R.S'.  Or Frank's to 'There Was A Time'.  I think they are fine, but I'm not going to go overboard saying they changed the song all that much or were some sort of game changer.  A drum fill here, a riff there, on top of a current song is what it is.  I listened to those leaks for years, like a lot of fans.  When I got the finished products, I obviously noticed the changes.  But at no time did I view them as entirely new songs transformed by the cut & paste jobs overtop of the leaked versions I had for years.




We are at another one of our differences of opinion, it seems.

I don't think the comparisons of those 2 fellas on CD stands up to the UYI era band working on, recording, and releasing the UYI albums.  I find that a strained comparison for the reasons I already laid out.  Those reasons don't come with an edict you have to accept my opinion or else, obviously.  But I will say I would have no qualms making my argument to a third party and see if they feel it stands up.




Well, I would.

And I would say a large part of that is because Axl and Team Brazil have done such a poor job putting the current guys over and making them better known.  You tend to be one of the few people I come across that doesn't think its odd or at all troubling that no one knows who is in this band, even after all this time.  I would argue that the reason for that stance is to avoid having to say anyone in the GNR camp dropped the ball.  That would be my opinion on the reason, and its clearly not a stance I agree with.




Your original question was about some live track. 

What you have quoted here is my answer to that question.  I agreed a live track of a song they didn't write would not do much to make them seem more like a legit band.  I then laid out 2 examples I felt make better cases, and I stand by both.

Jesus, at some point you just have to let it be...my god, get over it. Every thread comes down to your same old petty grievances. I am an old school fan but have accepted it for what it is.

Today's conversation is about the current state of the band and its future, not "same old petty grievances."

We are three guys having a conversation.  From the looks of things, the only conversation going on here today. 

Don't like it, don't read it.  We seem to be doing OK with it.  If its not for you, its not for you.  No worries.

Uh, I think we're having a good conversation.  I don't think anyone needs to get in a twist over it.

Yeah, I don't get the beef.

You, Jarmo and I spent a slow morning at work having a pretty civil conversation despite our vast differences of opinion on most things.

Where is the harm?  And again, what else is going on here today?  Start a new topic if this one bugs you that much, I'd say.  Maybe that takes off. 

But chiming in mid-conversation to say you aren't enjoying it...what's that getting you?

My opinion is that I won't write off a whole year in February. How is that not an opinion?

I think the difference is in how you see things. I could say "Yes, I think they'll release an album in 2014" or "nope". But for me to say either one, I would need something to make me say it. You take the no comments from Axl and comments from Ron and run with it to a "no". While I need a bit more than that.



The question is, when you get that new material, will it make people happy? Sure, for a while. But soon after, some will find things that are wrong with it.
Maybe I'm a bit cynical after reading years of comments from certain fans. It's almost like some aren't interested in having a new album to enjoy, they just want something new to dissect.



   

No, the point is that whatever the band does, some will find faults in it. So the whole idea that a new album is the answer to all troubles isn't necessarily 100% accurate. Yes, they say they want an album now, but then you know there's more to it. There's always some unspoken disclaimer.

I'm aware that you can never please everybody. Just focus on making what you think is right. Which is what GN'R's always been about. Some obviously still don't get it.






Which is pretty much what Axl's saying by not saying anything. ;)






It's you personal opinions.

But you can't argue that they're not on the album. ;)



Yet, Bumblefoot is featured on every track....





Remember when Axl was on TV, and he answered the question who's in the band? ;) And at every show, he's not exactly trying to hide who's in the band....

Anyway, if you'd go to a GNR show, you'd notice that those guys do have fans...





Sure, since releasing music seems to be the way you guys think a band is created/validated.





So, it's not about releasing music. It's about who writes, records and releases it.

Was the line up with Gilby, that only released cover songs, a "real" band? That exact line up didn't manage to write one single original song and release it. Songs that weren't even written by GN'R members.

How about the AFD GN'R itself? Was it a band prior to their first release? From June 1985 to December 1986, they weren't a real band?


/jarmo

Exactly.  I work at a TV station with two screens on my desk, one for work, one for pretty much reserved for my online bullshit.  The three of us are chatting about our favorite band to kill time.  What's the harm?

Jarmo can hold his own btw.  He doesn't need anyone to chime in telling us to lay off.

Yes, basically UMG won't make some of their hit songs digitally available unless the band agrees to a royalty rate that is much lower than what Def Leppard gets for CD sales. So the band decided to re-record the songs and released them digitally on their own.  

I have no doubt that the vast majority of musicians have issues with their label.  I think most of them just cave.  I'm glad that Axl doesn't.  Fuck the labels.  I may be in the minority on this, but if the choice is (1) no new album or (2) new album only if Axl has to eat the label's shit, then I would take no album.  With his great music and performances over the years, the man has enriched my life way too much for me to thank him by demanding new music at his expense.  

Quote from: jarmo on Today at 19:26:43

Oh, I was referring to my opinion there will be no new album this year or next.

I would say no.  And I'd be willing to listen to someone that told me they disagreed, and here is why they think it will.  I don't have as much interest in being told I can't possibly be right, and the counterargument is that you don't know either...but yeah, I'm probably wrong.  I see a disconnect there.


Quote from: jarmo on Today at 19:26:43

Fair.

But, as I said, I wouldn't really fault them if it does not happen this year, given their touring commitments. 


Quote from: jarmo on Today at 19:26:43

I'm not sure that's a terribly healthy way to live though.  Can't go through life in constant fear you might always have detractors, either reasonable and unreasonable.

Axl has made explicit statement that if you didn't like CD, you probably won't like the next one.  It seems like he's made his peace with it.


Quote from: jarmo on Today at 19:26:43

So what's the alternative?  To just give up? 

Both Axl and you at times have made the point that he didn't do all this work to never have it see the light of the day.  So let it see the light of day, I'd argue.  Compromising your plans because of a few angry wack-a-doos on the internet seems foolish to me.

The oft repeated "fuck the haters" mindset this band supposedly has is not terribly congruent with this thinking they are paralyzed by what those "haters" might say, you know?






Oh, I'd agree.

But you also pretty consistently tell me that his lack of saying anything should not be taken as proof of lost interest or nothing else forthcoming.  So which is it?  it can't be both.






Well...no, obviously not.  But I was taking things a little deeper than simply taking attendance.




The last one I went to, I was actually rather encouraged so many did know all the words to the newer songs.

I had anticipated a bunch of people up and grooving during a 'Rocket Queen', but then sitting on their hands for a 'Street Of Dreams'.  That was not the case.




I find it the difference between a conventional band and a touring band/hired hand type of a set-up.

In fact, its only with this band (and often only at this particular board) that is considered some radical stance.




Huh?  Are you trying to make the argument that 'The Spaghetti Incident' album deserves its own era in the GNR timeline?

Hahahaha.  No doubt.

I've been to a lot of message boards about a lot of topics.  Some with very strong factions and opinions.

I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone like Jarmo at any board.  The dude is hardcore on message, always.  We may not always agree, but I would never question either his resolve or entertain the notion he needs assistance to state his case.

Jarmo is a lion!   He is a great debater and he is resilient!

I am fine what the status quo is.  I can't wait for Vegas I so psyched.  Regarding the new album though  can't someone just ask Axl?  It would save a lot of speculation.   

Well, I already said why I disagree with a definite "no". Because we're only in February! To me it makes no sense to say something when there's no concrete info to go on that suggest it's definitely a "no". You got your hunch, fair enough.





Didn't say anybody did. Just pointing out reasons why I don't buy the "we just want a new album" thing.
The album is just for now, after that, there's gonna be a "need" for something else.

The same thing happens with shows. It's always "Please come to ______ !!!!!". As soon as a show is announced there, it's "please do this!", "please do that!". And here I thought all you wanted was the show.  :hihi:
You know?

I mean, it's great that there's "demand", don't get me wrong. But it's all just a line of needs after another.




You just do what you want and believe in. If it annoys D-GenX, too bad. ;)






By not talking about something, you're not getting people's hopes up. But it doesn't mean you got no interest in doing something.

Even back last year he said "a definite maybe" to the question about new GN'R music in 2013. So, there's interest. There was no "absolutely not". ;)




Yeah, but then it's about what you think is important.



My favorites are the ones yelling for Paradise City since the start of the show.  :hihi:




Trying to understand your definition of a band.
Since it's not a group of people who perform music together.... Especially if they've done it for a while...


So would you say GN'R wasn't a band until December 1986 when they released their EP?



Pisces actually. ;)



/jarmo

Sorry D-GenX, I accidentally hit the wrong button and instead of quoting I accidentally modified your post.
I think I got all your original content back.




/jarmo

For the record, despite my differences in opinion(s) with Jarmo at times, I do feel this is the best run GNR forum.  Here, you can have clear conversations and debates without it feeling like a psych ward for underage basket cases.  He's obviously doing something right.  Which is why we so often bug him.  :hihi:

Hahahaha.

Yeah, have they never seen a show?  Heard a bootleg?

That also goes for the people that think there is another song.  Nevermind all that confetti dropping from the ceiling.



I don't think its all that radical.  Its a group of musicians that create, record, and release original material.

The argument that started all this is that its hard to consider this current line-up that sort of band.  Mainly because the current group has not done any of that.

Let's attack this another way.  I consider the 'Chinese Democracy' line-up to be :

Axl
Bucket
Robin
Richard
Tommy
Brain
Dizzy
Chris

In other words, the circa 2002 band.  If those guys were still together, we are not having this conversation.  They would be Guns N' Roses.  They created, recorded, and released an album and toured behind it.  Yes, they would still be playing certain songs from the back catalog that they had nothing to do with, but they would have at least the most current album as a testament to what they are capable of and had done.  And presumably, more albums to follow.  With each subsequent one, we would have more of an idea of what they are about.

The current band :

Axl
DJ
Richard
Ron
Tommy
Frank
Dizzy
Chris

...we got nothing.  What they are capable of and all about remains to be seen.  A legit 50% of that roster is doing 25 songs a night they had zero input in creating.

Hence, touring band.  At least, as of this date.

I think I agree.

The knock you hear about this place is that certain topics are verboten.  But, to be honest, I don't even disagree on that policy.  Its absolutely nice to be able to read through threads here without having to talk about pipe dream reunions how band members are fat and ugly.  Not productive conversation.

Also not found here, knock down drag outs between 2 posters that hate each other.  How many times at MYGNR will a thread be going along and then an entire page is a wall of quoted text with the only addition being personal insults?  Followed by the entire thing quoted and then a personal insult in return. 

Are we in high school?

It really is surreal there nowadays.  Once in a great while, I'll see a thread title which might look like it actually contains an interesting conversation, only to click on the most recent pages only to find it riddled with fighting and insults hurled back and forth.  People seemingly insult band members just to get under another posters skin.  Bizarre doesn't begin to cut it.

And the threads that are actually active on point are discussing whether the band can successfully cover a song no one cares about from the 70s.  Pass.

They have a 10 page thread on how Duff is going to fill in for Tommy for some shows LOL



its always the same posters who ruin every thread there.... with their stupid ax's fat comments and the other side stating how Ron and DJ play Slashs songs better than he ever could

I agree completely.... but it is what it is... cant get buckethead back I dont think....

certain people dont like this... but you spelled it out clearly

And I don't think its some sort of diss.  It's certainly not what I'm going for, I promise you.

Just last night I listened to one of my bootlegs from the 2010 tour as I worked on other things.  I swear on my eyes I am a fan of this current group.  I'm not shitting on them.

I am with you... ive enjoyed the shows with bucket, Robin, Brain / dj, ron, frank equally

but its a completely different band from the one that put CD together

Well, it happened in India!



So using that definition, GN'R wasn't a band until they released their first EP.
Also, GN'R wasn't a band between 1991 and 1993 since they only recorded cover songs?

See, that definition is confusing!
You need to fine tune it. I'm sure you'll say something like "it's a group of musicians where _____ (insert percentage) were present to create, record, and release original material". ;)





But still a band.  :hihi:


Anyhow, just because you think Ron didn't "create" enough for Chinese Democracy, even though he's on every track, doesn't make it a fact.... Seven out of eight guys were in the band in the time when the album was created, recorded and released. Guys who joined in 2006 added their parts to songs that the 2002 line up had recorded.

If you want to listen to a GN'R album featuring Bumblefoot, you know you can. So he didn't get song writing credits, but neither did Matt Sorum or Dizzy Reed on the Illusions.

No matter how you try to make up definitions of the word band, most of this band helped create Chinese Democracy. True, the songs were written before some of them joined. So were many songs on previous albums too. The album you own would not be the same album without their playing. No matter if you think the song changed or not. Their playing is on there. They helped make it what it is.




/jarmo

Same here.  I'm a big fan of Shackler's Revenge.  Ron's fretless work, and video-game style tapping at the end blows my mind with every time I hear it.  A few years ago when Ron said that he recorded for "a good handful" of tracks that were not on Chinese, including Atlas Shrugged, I thought, "Fuckin' A, bring em' on!", only to get stone walled for several years with still no sign of the next album.

DJ's solo songs have impressed me & make me hopeful that he could put a really neat "classic" style spin on some of the older Chinese era tracks slated for the next album, which he will no doubt appear on, should they actually materialize as part of an official release.

These guys have the chops.  The songs are there.  We just need something to light a fire under all the gatekeepers collective asses.

Me too.  One of my favorites on the album.

That one and 'I.R.S.' I really, really like.  Yet both songs seem to take a lot of shit on message boards.  It bums me out.

Really, the only tunes I didn't care for on the album were 'Rhiad' (I find it to be a rambling mess of a song with no tune) and 'Sorry' (which I find pretty juvenile, lyrically).

What's weird, at least to me, is that 'Sorry' is pretty obviously about the band break-up and I find it pretty juvenile and petty.

But, in my opinion, 'I.R.S.' is also about the band break-up, but I find that one well written and clever.  And still think it should have been the lead single.

IRS, is absolutely one of the best tracks on the album and is in my opinion, neck and neck with Better as far as the best "rock tracks" on the album.   I remember both leaked at the same time and the response was overwhelmingly positive.  Heck, IRS made the charts the week it leaked.

I understand the backlash against Shackler's, as it is a very non-traditional rock track.  But, if you listen to it understanding that (despite the name) this is a different band from 1985-93, and take it for what it is, it's a really fun, wild, track full of cool guitar work.  A lot to appreciate.  I feel that way about a lot of the tracks on Chinese.

you boys totally lost me on page 7 somewhere. just a few thoughts on what I crossread to here.
anybody read this article on the jared leto/30stm hassle with their former label and manager?
http://www.forbes.com/sites/natalierobehmed/2013/12/04/jared-leto-wages-war-on-the-music-industry/

it also points out that touring won't get you rich-er. so I guess there are 2 reasons to tour. either promoting or making the fans happy. considering the fact touring is hard work and there are a ton of GNR fans out there who will kill in order to see them live, I always considered them touring as making fans happy? It's something you need to be devoted to.

also writing new material is a creative process. you can't enforce it. and there are several factors that play into that process (e.g. happiness, heartache, fear, loss, grief, love,...) what gets you started? and after that you will actually have to like your own work enough to go publish it; unless you want to release stuff for the mere act although you are not perfectly happy with it? although many others would probably be very happy with it... oh well.