Here Today... Gone To Hell!

I was reading the below article about how Interscope recently rejected MIA's new album for not being "dark" enough. This got me thinking: Could the label be doing the same thing to Axl in regards to the next Guns album? Perhaps holding out for something more traditional & hard rock sounding?

Here's Axl's most recent, albeit brief, description of what the next album was going to be in the 2009 Del James interview: "What I can say is if you don't like this [Chinese Democracy], then you probably won't like that [the next album]. Same people, lots more approaches, bit meaner in places and darker in some. Robin does a really great Stevie Ray Vaughan-type solo on one track."

Fast forward 5 years & we've still yet to hear that album.

I for one loved Chinese Democracy, and was really looking forward to hearing the rest of the rumored titles we've been given over the years. I really hope that disagreements over the next album's sound will not keep the next album in limbo for years on end.

DJ has said countless times in interviews that he turned in "10 demos" a couple years back. Could this mean that Axl is slowly shifting back to a more traditional hard rock sound for the next release, possibly due to label pressure?


www.stereogum.com/1229881/m-i-a-s-matangi-rejected-by-label-for-being-too-positive/news/

People really blame Axl's perfectionism for holding things up, but there has to be a ton of label politics involved too.

Here is something I have considered.

First off, I don't believe Axl has an album together enough to even turn in to be turned down.  I'm talking in terms of mixing and the like, the finishing touches.

But...what is missing on 'Chinese'?  Choruses.  I really like some of the songs, but they don't have many proper choruses. 

Could it be the old line about "the A&R man said 'I don't hear a single'"?

I've considered this as well in regard to the next album.  And while I'm sure we (GNR die hards) will all love The General & Atlas Shrugged, I imagine their structure & style will be on par with tracks like TWAT, Catcher, & Prostitute....Amazing musical pieces, BUT definitely not your typical "don't bore us, get to the chorus" rock tracks.  Not very radio/single friendly.

Chinese Democracy was, at best, a lukewarm success sales-wise.  At worst, it was a "commercial" failure.  And that's with all the hype surrounding the "most anticipated album of all time". This album does not have that mystique.

Do they really want to gamble?  Well, I certainly hope so.  But will they?  It remains to be seen.

Doesn't matter about what the album will sound like, the label I believe is more concerned about the GN'R of today, image wise. The label doesn't really care really what the albums direction is in, they are more worried about GN'R's image globally and in the media. They obviously are trying to push for some kind of reunion which will never happen, but I don't think they can accept the current band in terms of looks and worldwide appeal.

They see musicians representing Guns, who are not all over google, magazines, music videos... and they are propably worried over future sales based on the below forcased sales figures for CD, and they are thinking "Where do we go now?" pun intended.  :hihi:

In fact, a GN'R that is industrial, synth based and experimental, much like the 2002 band. Are most likely more appealing than a band who are trying to recreate GN'R's rock n' roll past, because that can never be matched.

If the label is blocking a release, it's not because of the musical merits but because of GN'R's state of affairs in todays music world, both image wise and mass appeal... :D

Not exactly the point.... As long as songs are recorded, the record company, and anyone else involved in the release, would get an idea of what the finished completely mixed release would be like.


As a side note, I find it somewhat puzzling how some fans think Axl is the "bad guy". For taking his art seriously, for not letting others dictate what to do regarding his work.
So let's say something happens, and it's always his fault. Nobody assumes that people in the business might have egos? Journalists, people at the record companies, concert promoters, festival organizers, other artists etc etc. I've read enough Internet forums to know that some people have online egos, the old "my dad can beat up your dad" syndrome. So, that kind of thinking doesn't exist in the real world? Where people are dealing with big decisions and lots of money.... Not to mention they might have power over somebody. Even if it's just temporary. "I'll show you who's the boss!"....



/jarmo

I feel like Axl used to fight the good fight, and while he continues to stand his ground, it seems that he'd rather sit on the sidelines than deal with the forces that are against him.  Its pretty evident that Axl is a sensitive soul, and perhaps he's no longer willing to fight an uphill battle at the expense of his personal happiness.  Can't say I blame him. 

I think it's a combination of all things that have been discussed here.  First off, Axl is a perfectionist, so things don't move too swiftly.  He's not going to change his ways after so much time, nor should he.  The band has a contentious relationship with the label, so it wouldn't appear that either is going to bend over backwards for the other.  Either side can, probably has, and probably will continue to dick each other around just because they can.

Ultimately, there's not much money to be made with album sales anymore outside of the pop world, which obviously GNR is not a part of.  Luckily for them, they can make good coin out on the road, but they don't stand to gain all that much financially with another album release.  Same for the label.  They probably don't think a new release would sell like hotcakes, so it's not at the top of their priority list. 

GNR needs someone at the record company to be on their side, to believe in them, to be a fan.  I don't know if that person exists.  If not, it seems like an extreme uphill battle to release another album for a variety of reasons that we can't even begin to imagine or understand.

If there is label problems. It's hard to keep fighting the same battles.

They would be stupid not to accept or promote a new Guns CD.  Then again we are talking about the music industry.... the one's that didn't embrace the internet.  They want all the money they can squeeze out of a reunion... but it WILL NEVER HAPPEN.  GnR has a lot of momentum with 3 hr shows, great fan reviews, starting on time, playing festivals.  People are becoming more acceptable of the current lineup.  I think we will see a 2014 release just my personal opinion, if it doesn't happen oh well... I won't be mad, as long as they tour  :)

Obviously they aren't...

Fact: labels have no money. GNR is still an historical trademark who can relatively sell  a lot. So why should they stop Mr. Rose?  :rofl:

Option 1: they have shitty material...but if it were for the label, it would have been already released, anyway.
Option 2: they have no finished material

What i think about it: new line up hasn't written a fuckin song since bumblefoot joined the band in 2006 (8 fuckin years). Maybe axl want to record/ mix something along with the new line up but there's already been a huge waste of money so that label want to release the old material first (even if it sucks) but axl stopped it.
So that's why he's not been truly interested in recording new material.

I just hope everything goes the way Axl wants and that IF there's a new record and WHEN it's released (doesn't matter when) I hope it happens the way he wants and that it won't be a messy release the way Chinese Democracy was (as regards the record company, booklet, etc).
I do have hopes to hear more songs from the CD era with Bucket, Robin, Paul and Brain plus additional stuff from the current band. The songs from Chinese Democracy are so great that makes me wonder what else was done back then!
I also wonder about the remixes album and the other booklets. I know it's been a long time and that we'll probably never see the light of day for these two precious items but hope is the last to die! :) !!
5 years past its release I still hear Chinese Democracy basically on daily basis and much more than any other GN'R album. And I still find myself amused and surprised by many things inside of this work of art.

Yeah, we know you do, Jarmo.  Believe me.




Of course we realize that.

However, we could just as easily ask you why you NEVER think its his fault.  To be blunt, I'd rather defend any of us on the matter than you.  Even we awful, rotten, no good, complaining fans at times take Axl's side of it.  You?  You NEVER put the blame on him.  The closest you come is to lecture us on speculating without "the facts".  The comedy there being that we are jerkoffs for speculating he's in the wrong because we can't support that with "the facts".  You, on the hand, can speculate all you want about how Axl is the greatest guy ever working his ass off to give something to the fans.  And despite you not having "the facts" to back any of it up, that's no problem.

Come on now.

I dont think that Axl is a or the bad guy .... firstly i don't know him personally ha and at thee end of the day he is just a rock n roll singer...

I just think he has handled certain aspects of the GNR saga very poorly... not all of it his fault... but at the end of the day it falls on him.



his stubbornness to the way he wants to do things (i.e. how he wants the label to approach his work) is honorable to an extent... but the fan in me who wants the product loses out



I just really cant believe that the label wouldn't allow him to release another album of stuff that they have already paid for.... for what? to spite themselves?

would they really never release more tracks to force him to call Slash? they gotta know thats never happening right?

or they wont release it because the songs are too dark and dont have choruses, not radio friendly? (they aren't but thats besides the point)

the money is already spent.... why wouldn't they wanna try to recover at least some of it?

all speculation at the end of the day

I think this is really the bottom line.

I think people convincing themselves how great is that Axl "refuses to play their game" is little more than Stockholm Syndrome.  Its not easy putting a good spin on all this inactivity.  So they look as hard as they can for a silver lining, and settled on that.

yeah I can't disagree

Maybe Axl has had a hard time coming to grips with the fact that he isnt 28 years old anymore and it isn't of the same value to geffen/interscope as he once was for many different reasons (different band, different era of music, different economy, people dont buy records anymore)

and because of this they treat him differently and he cant come to terms with why causing such a rift between both sides

tru dat, maybe Axl is playing this 'safe'. ??? I 4 one would <3 some spite_musicly_ coming from him.

Nice twist.

It's easy to feel better about yourself and point fingers in hindsight isn't it?

Why don't you just answer the question? I guess in a way you did and then started attacking me.
Same old, same old.


The whole point is that some of you think nobody else seems to be able to "fight" against Axl and/or the band. That everybody wants what's best for him and GN'R. I don't buy it.
This isn't about whether or not I support or believe Axl, it's about the fact that there are a bunch of other people in the business and maybe, just maybe, they're not just easy going music lovers who happen to be huge fans of Axl and GN'R....




/jarmo

mhm, remember that axl sued over that guitar-hero thing. Slash hasn't representet gnr since 96.

The whole point is that some of you think nobody else seems to be able to "fight" against Axl and/or the band. That everybody wants what's best for him and GN'R. I don't buy it.
This isn't about whether or not I support or believe Axl, it's about the fact that there are a bunch of other people in the business and maybe, just maybe, they're not just easy going music lovers who happen to be huge fans of Axl and GN'R....




/jarmo
[/quote]


this is kinda what I am talking about... Axl isnt the flavor of the month with the record company obviously...and obviously all of us are not of that opinion... but maybe he has to adjust his thought process a little bit too.. find some common ground

The universe at large is not conspiring against Axl Rose.  Knock it off.

You spend close to 10 years getting an album out.  We are now over 5 years since that release, and there isn't even a hint of a sniff of a rumor that anything new is on the way.  

To suggest Axl is waking up every day busting his ass to get shit done is completely preposterous.  We can even accept the tried and true "he doesn't owe you anything" routine.  But spare us that he's hard at work 24/7/365, but damn the luck, because these unseen boogeyman make it their life's mission to thwart him at every turn.  

That insults the intelligence of all involved.

It is not Axl. Rock is going scheise. Axl has the voice. If only the songs and the arrangements delivered...

The world is awaiting a return of good rockmusic.

Rock records from rock acts are released every week of every year.

From the up and comer right on through the arena tour level.  Every week, every year.

Are you serious? Is there really a need to try to ridicule the point I brought up?

You bring up more issues to try to discredit and ridicule.
He doesn't need to work 24/7 on new songs for what I said to be true.... Alll the artists and bands who had problems with their record companies were just not working hard enough for your liking?

People trying to force Axl into doing things that suit them hasn't worked so well over the years. But does that mean nobody is trying?

And no, I didn't say "the universe". That was your idea.



That is amazing.  : ok:



/jarmo

It truly is, really.

Even though labels hate releasing albums (when that's needed to spin GNR matters).  Even though labels aren't interested in rock (when that's needed to spin GNR matters).  Even though labels hate their artists and work against their interests (when that's needed to spin GNR matters).  Even though labels pay all sort of money for bands to record and then would rather the material never get put out so they might make some return on that investment (when that's needed to spin GNR matters).

Yet somehow, some way...all these albums keep coming out.  Truly incredible.

It's amazing how good the record companies are at taking care of their artists since the original poster brought up MIA's album being rejected.

It's amazing how Prince felt he had to write SLAVE on his cheek because his record company was so good to him. It's amazing the Smashing Pumpkins couldn't release their Machina II album on their good record label so they released it for free instead. It's amazing how many major bands and artists decide to release music on their own terms even though the record labels are so great at releasing music!




/jarmo

The fact of the matter is, shit just didn't get done.
Regardless of why, Axl and GN'R has not accomplished much in the grand scheme of things since the split of the classic lineup.

They've had all the time in the world to get it together. Countless bands have formed, broken big and disbanded, more than once while managing to produce/create at a far greater level than GN'R has since '93. Making excuses for them is just that.

Trouble building the band over again essentially from scratch? Sure, understandable. But that's the decision he made and task he took on. Trouble keeping band members? Trouble creating an album the label is willing to release? Trouble creating in anything resembling a timely fashion? Yes I realize hindsight is 20/20, but that doesn't change the facts.
Axl wanted the GN'R name, so yes, the failures do fall at his feet, just like the credit and praise would have had he managed to make it work.

Axl doesn't get the luxury of the GN'R name PLUS immunity to criticism.
He opened himself up to it with his decisions, and I'd be shocked if he didn't know that himself.

Extremely well said.  The part in bold especially.

Regardless of who's to blame, it's all just so....sad.

Axl fought so hard to retain control of the GNR name, only to put out 1 album, whether of his own choosing or label restrictions .  What happened to the multi album opus we were waiting for which would be married to years of touring?  Was the label never on board with any of this?  Did the Chinese Democracy fallout shell shock literally everyone involved into never wanting to go through those motions with a GNR album again?  Seems so.

Again, very sad.

No objective analysis of the operation post 1993 could label it a success.  You have to so lower the bar to deem it one, the term loses all meaning.

Getting one record out in 20 years and a few legs of touring here and there is not herculean in its accomplishment, not matter how you slice it.

Fact is, other than the forum chats, Axl did absolutely nothing on his end to promote Chinese Democracy.  When he was questioned about this during the chats in regard to wouldn't the album do better if he was promoting it, his response was "That is your opinion and you may very well be right" and went on to say that he thought the label was going to do more to promote it.  Well, what exactly could they have done better without Axl's heavy involvement, which was denied to them.

We know Axl's never been fond of the "Meet em' half way" mindset.  When you look at it that way, and after the luke-warm at best sales of Chinese Democracy, what real incentive does the label have to enthusiastically pursue another Guns N' Roses album?  Little to none would be my guess.

Depends how you see success.

The album everybody said would never come out, did come out. The current band has played more shows "here and there" than the Use Your Illusion line ups, combined. That's more shows than Matt Sorum played in GN'R, with Izzy AND Gilby.

I wonder if it would be considered a success by you if GN'R put out two albums of material in a year since success seems to be related to how many songs you put out....
Or would it then be about how many copies were sold, how many awards it won and how good the reviews were?



/jarmo

I have never understood the Use ur Illusion "lineup" ... it was a different drummer and Gilbey filled in for izzy at the shows... it was still izzy's material and recordings
and since we love to explain the amount of shows played by certain "lineups" around here... who has played more shows? im just curious i guess i could figure it out

buckethead, fink and brain or ron dj and frank?

but tot he topic at hand and to answer ur question... yes we all would judge their success based on all of those things included with how we feel about the songs

but if there is a limited amount of material there isn't much to judge...and yes 1 album in 20 years while maybe isn't a failure...it certainly is disappointing

Point is, there were some bad feelings on both sides of the fence that left a bad taste in the mouths of both Axl & the label after the release of Chinese Democracy.  Remember how the label claimed that Axl went completely MIA during the fall of 2008?  And, of course, all you need to do is re-read the Billboard interview to see how Axl felt the label handled the release of Chinese, which also put Jimmy Iovine through the ringer.

In retrospect, it's no wonder Axl went from being excited about the next album during his forum-chats to "No idea and don't care" during the Del interview a few months later.  

Let's just hope the last couple of years have seen some MAJOR patching up of these issues, and that some concessions are made on both sides to get the next album out.

I agree... nobody benefits from them bitching with each other.... including us

This is exactly what I was talking about. 

Its how far you want to lower the bar to be able to call it a success.  It depends how much a person is willing to do so.  Is it a successful date as long as the other person actually shows up and doesn't spit on you?  It is if that is what you are willing to accept as defining success, I suppose.


This is actually very easy to answer. 

It would be a success if Axl simply gave a shit.  Let's say he put out 3 albums over the past 12 years.  He laid it all out there, wore it on his sleeve, and put his heart and soul into giving it a chance to succeed.  Even if all 3 album totally tanked, you'd have to respect him for trying.  He wanted things his way, he gave his way a shot.  That's success.

What was that old Matt Sorum quote?  It was something like "Axl wanted things his way.  He's either going to take the ball and run with it or drop the ball.  He dropped the ball."  My wording might be off a bit, but that was the gist.  And I agree.

If you asked anyone in 1997 if by 2014 they would have one new GNR album released under cover of night and not promoted and various legs of the same tour, and would they consider that a success...what would they say?  Be honest, if you can.

it always morphs in to this back n forth...

I just want all parties to be a little more flexible moving forward...they need to meet half way on certain things... at least thats the way it appears

Like sofine11 said, the label is likely pretty pissed with Axl's disappearing act in 2008.  That might be hard to overcome. 

It's really hard for me to be impressed by the amount of touring GN'R has done.
I mean, don't get me wrong, I've seen them multiple times, and I rank the '06 Hammerstein up with my favorites so I'm grateful for the opportunity.

But the fact that they've toured more than Izzy, is that really a feather in their cap?
Izzy co-wrote most of those songs the current band is touring behind, and he did quite a bit or touring himself.

I'm really not sure it's a win for the current lineup that they've toured more than the classic, yet produced 1/5 of what the classic lineup did in 6 years.

Touring is how bands make their money today, so glad they are getting theirs and fans are getting multiple chances to see a great live show, but tough to see it as any more than that.

And to answer your question, no I don't think releasing new music necessarily equals success.
If they release music for the sake of it, and it's obviously half hearted, that doesn't do anyone any good.

Not really a concern at this point in time though, as records aren't the cash grabs they used to be.

I don't personally equate releasing albums as success, but I certainly do equate 1 album since '93, '98 what have you, by an active band a failure.

Well, they played more shows than one of the line ups many consider classic. Which means we can put the "its not a band" shit to rest. So in that sense it's a success. All the "Axl can't keep a band together" shit is irrelevant.

Just like for years we heard "GN'R always cancel shows" or "Axl is always late". Those aren't exactly true anymore either.

Some just forget fast what they were "criticizing" the week before and find something else. No new album -> No tour -> Late starts -> same setlist etc etc....  :P




/jarmo

But people claiming this is barely a band do so because we have been told, point blank, this current group hasn't written a note together in 8 years.

We are well aware that a group of people have performed the same 20 or so songs under the name Guns N Roses for the past few years.  No one is really disputing that part.

1 more or less unpromoted album in the 18 years that Axl has been sole owner of the Guns N' Roses name is disheartening, at best.  Especially when you consider all the finished music he's allegedly hoarding.  I just have a really hard time wrapping my mind around the "whys" there.

Agreed.

And even falling back on lauding the touring has its problems.  Because if you want to point to all the shows they played, fine.  But you must also include an entire tour cancelled that Axl somewhat dubiously claimed he knew nothing about and found out about via the internet.  And the initial North American tour that was an unmitigated disaster.

David Bowie released a new album last year, his first in about ten years. He didn't tour or do interviews to promote it. But only Axl does that kind of stuff right?

Dr Dre still didn't release Detox, an album that's been talked about for a while. But only Axl does that right?


Why do these artists do things like these when it seems like the whole world is appearing on morning TV, doing interviews, never breaking up bands, releasing albums that everyone loves every year and so on... Because everybody is different! What works for you, might not work for me.



/jarmo

i personally don't care about what David Bowie and Dr Dre do....


i just know what Axl does or doesn't do .. and anybody else's situation is not comparable anyway

Those artists aren't basically sitting on loads of finished material.  

David Bowie recorded an album, released it in a timely matter, and promoted it with a few videos.  He cannot tour due to a serious heart condition.

Dr. Dre released The Chronic 2001 in 1999, back when the Sean Beaven produced Chinese Democracy album was supposed to be wrapping up production, only to be delayed and reworked for 9 additional years, though admittedly some of that was due to the label, some not.  I believe he has released several singles for 'Detox' over the last few years, with videos, something Axl has yet to do for the follow up to Chinese.

Jarmo brings up that David Bowie example all the time.  Examples of how other bands operate are permissible if they help the Axl side of things.  Otherwise, not relevant.

And I am a huge, huge Dr. Dre fan.  So, sticking with the comparisons we are now cool with, let me assure anyone and everyone within earshot that Dr. Dre fans absolutely do not laud him for his inactivity.  Or commend him for "not compromising" or any of that crap.  The overwhelming opinions are frustration and bewilderment that 'Detox' can take this long to get together.

Let me clarify my stance.  I DO NOT believe that Axl Rose is solely responsible for the lack of Nu-GNR albums over the last 18 years. However, I also do not believe that the label is the sole colporate.  I think its absolutely 50/50.

If Axl wanted to get another GNR album out "soon" bad enough, he could get it done.  He's Axl Rose.  On the flip side, if the label wanted another GNR album out "soon", they'd figure out a way to motivate Axl to give them whatever tracks were meant for the next album, master 'em, and put them out.

I do not believe either want another GNR album enough to do what it takes to make it a reality.  Otherwise, we'd all have Soul Monster & The General blasting on our ipods, etc right now.  Simple as that.

Someone is not doing their job.

This is pretty much my stance as well.  I absolutely do not think either side is exactly moving heaven and earth to get this done.

My personal belief is that Axl has little to no interest in doing anything constructive, and the label isn't exactly holding their breath anyway.

I think my biggest objection to this narrative about the label being against Axl is the simple fact I doubt they give him much thought, pro or con.

Yep. 

It's the ultimate rock n' roll riddle of the Sphinx: What happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object?  We don't get an album and have to spend our days arguing with Jarmo as to why exactly that is.  :hihi:

If Axl releases another album similar to the last offering then why bother?

Whilst I acknowledge that music is very much each to their own, for mine, Chinesse Democracy was weak & didn't warrant any kind of fanfare or promotion.

The album lacked any energy and was bereft of spirit.  Forget the length it took to be released. I wouldn't care if it was (15) years or (15) weeks, it was stale and lifeless upon its release.

As far as promotion goes, not all great albums need big singles, however the great albums will take you on an emotional journey & demand the listener to constantly revisit the album because of the feeling it generates within them. 

Axl's past works ensured that Chinesse Democracy received significant publicity & promotion, with very little effort on his or the bands part - i.e. if the album is good enought then it promotes itself on the back of one of rocks most legendary figures.  However, it was a lukewarm offering, at best, and received a similar reception on its release.  Six years on from its release, no one, outside of these forums, is commenting what a hidden gem this album was & how astonishing it is that it wasn't received better by music fans.

I tend to feel the time spent touring this album could had been better spent doing anything else.  This album did not warrant this much touring, it should had been put to bed many moons ago.

I honestly believe that Axl & the bands next offering is very much make or break for all concerned. 

Make no doubt about it, the wider listenning audience has very much moved on from Axl Rose, a long, long time ago. 

Axl needs to regain his hunger to dominate, otherwise he'll only ever be known as a great frontman for unbelievable late eighties, early nineties band.  Not bad in itself, however I am rooting for him to want to show everyone up again, on his own terms. 

Whilst he will always have his audience, as evidence to forums like this one, I tend to think that Axl and middle of the road doesn't sit well, on any level.

Lets hope this next album is raw, honest and an absolute killer of an offering!

Yeah, and you keep ignoring the facts that there are other artists out there who do things their way.

I'm not buying the idea that the more albums we have out by GN'R, the happier the fans will be.



/jarmo

If you're saying that GNR fans wouldn't be "happier" if they announced the next album, oh, let's say, tomorrow....Then I don't know what to tell you...

Of course the more music GNR puts out the happier fans will be.  How can you possibly dispute that? 

???

There's always going to be that select minority of fans that can never be pleased.  Every band has their peanut galleries.  But, c'mon...

On the original topic:  As I posted last week, the label has rejected a GN'R album before, when Axl wanted to mix CD, but was told by Bob Ezrin, acting as the A&R guy brought in by Jimmy Iovine, the album wasn't ready to mix.  Yes, this is the same label that rejected MIA's recent album multiple times because of its "dark" tone.

So, of course it's possible the label may not be happy with what they hear for stylistic and/or commercial accessibility reasons.

Off topic:  Of course many GN'R fans would be happy with a new album, myself included.  Others may complain if it isn't stylistically to their liking or closer to the traditional hard rock sound of the old band.  Others will complain if the record contains songs written with Buckethead and Robin Finck.  Others yet will complain simply because it isn't the old band.

So, I don't think any album would universally appease and satisfy the fanbase.

Ali

Of course not.  As I said, every rock band has it's unquenchable critics who never go away.  Hell, when Metallica finally released Death Magnetic in 2008, an album that saw them return to their roots in a way no one thought they could, fans cried to high heaven about what they deemed to be a terrible mixing job.

Being unable to universally please the fanbase is no reason to shy away from an album release.

No one said it was a reason.

I'm just offering my take on Jarmo's point about more albums=happier GN'R fans.

Ali

I didn't say that. Most fans would be excited. And then once the album was out, depending on the kind of fan you are, you'd either listen to it a lot or just once.  :hihi:

Because when you get something, you'll start thinking about what you want next. Just like a kid who gets a new toy....  :hihi:


For example, if you buy an album by some artist or band, for how long do you listen to it? Do you give it one chance and if it doesn't do anything for you, do you just put it aside and basically forget about it?

How long before you start "waiting" for the next album? If you know you're getting a new album every two-three years, do you give an album more attention since you already know the next one is around the corner? Or do you give an album more attention when you don't know when the next one is coming?




/jarmo

h8 how everything "incorrect" gets snuffed out, it kills artistic integrity


ok fine! those darn reunionists! :P

it seems 2 me that the most support (from companies) goes to >>> not rock, unless it is established bignames.
dunno if I'm right :coffee:

It would be hard for me to disagree more. True, AFD was raw and clearly the best GNR ever did. But CD had, IMO, some really great songs that are or will become classics. Songs like Madagascar, TWAT, Better, and Sorry are good examples. And I could even add The Blues, Shacklers, IRS, and This I Love as very strong songs. So I think that CD is a very strong album that could have and should have done better in sales if there had been some decent promotion and a video or two. Whom to blame for those shortcomings, I do not know. But to castigate the album in the way that was done is not accurate IMO.

Im not sure..On the whole CD was a good album. Not great. The problem wasnt the songs per se - it was it didnt flow like an album should. probably due to the time span the songs were written. It was a batch of songs thrown together that didnt quite gel. Anyway, off topic we've gone probably. Soz. (slaps hand)-
 However, In relation to post - agree bit of blame in both camps Id assume. Neither is probably pushing for anything to happen 'soon' one way or the other.

CD is a very good album if you are able to look at it objectively, take away all the drama and time that took to go in to it

there are songs on it that are simply not for me.... but id say thats how all records are for most people


the main obstacle for the label I cant help but think is the lack of radio friendly songs... because really CD had nothing that was very radio friendly

I can only speak for myself, but I still listen to 'Chinese' fairly often, and am still finding new & interesting things in the songs.  If a new album were to drop soon, I'm quite sure I & most other GNR fans would get a lot of miles out of that release as well. 

We can only hope that things aren't as stagnant as they seem behind the scenes, and that the ball is actually rolling to get new music to the fans.

I absolutely like 'Chinese' as an album.  A few of the tunes I'd put right alongside the classic line-up stuff, no problem.

That said, its flaws are obvious and real.  Many of the songs (even the good ones) have a bit of a mish-mash quality to them.  Mainly, because they were a mish-mash.  Put together by all sorts of people over all sorts of time.  Really, not one song on there sounds organic.

The double edged sword of the new album hopes is that the next one will be the same thing.  So while it wasn't a dealbreaker for me, it was for some.  And they will face the same problems on the next batch of songs from 2002-03 originally done by people out of the band 10 years and tweaked by the current crew.

I have struggled with this.... not wanting an album that was created by guys gone going on 10 years.... but I have come to terms with it...they are Axl's songs... dont care anymore how many different people wrote them or tinkered with them ... its an Axl release.. thats what I want to hear... not ideal...but you take what you can get

Agreed.  At the end of the day, it's an Axl Rose album, and I could honestly care less which guitarist from 10 years ago played what bits or solos on the album.  I think most people who would actually buy a new GNR album or single in 2014 has made their peace with that by now.  And if they haven't, who cares? 

Sure, a fresh recording would perhaps sound more "organic" than whatever else is in the can, but I'm not going to pretend I won't be completely stoked if all the songs from back in the day finally get released.  Fuck, I'd be elated. 

So does the fact that other artists "do things their way" mean that they can never be to blame?  Can they never be at fault?  Who gives a $&?/ what other bands do.  You say it all the time...."GNR aren't like other bands", so why bring up other bands now?? 

And yes, more music=happier GNR fans.  If you don't see this, your part of the problem.  Your response will be something like this....the more GNR puts out, the more people will want.  And you'd be missing the point under these circumstances with GNR.  You do realize that with anything in life, the less you do/release/accomplish, the more quickly you fade away.  Which means ultimately, that people lose interest.  The more you accomplish and or release music in this case, you remain relevant, and people stay interested.  Interest can go right along with being happy!  You of course will come back and say, they've been touring for an x amount of time and playing all over the world.  And yes, this keeps them relevant to an extent.  But like I said, the MORE you do (and it doesn't have to be every year.  In the music business, it's proven that even an album every 3-5 years can keep you relevant.  Other things play into this as well), the more relevant you will be.  The more interested someone can be in you or your work. 

The bottom line is this, if GNR isn't planning on releasing music, than tell us.  Most people would move on.  If you do plan on releasing music, than release it for Gods sake.  Their are multiple avenues to let music be heard. 

Blame? Fault?
The whole point was that everybody's different. There's no one way of doing things that works for everyone.






I still don't think more is automatically better. Remember when GN'R put out 30 songs on the same day? Well, everybody wasn't happy. How many times did you hear people say there was too much stuff there. It should've been less! Ironic.

I don't think releasing albums makes artists more relevant. The Rolling Stones aren't more relevant today than they were in the past. Even if they put out a new album.
And bands that put out albums fade away too. Album sales are just proof of that.

Staying relevant by releasing albums isn't an idea I subscribe to. It just sounds "forced". Just like the idea of releasing albums so you can tour.




/jarmo

Jarmo, you're pretty tight with Fernando/management.  Any rumblings of....well...anything?

Ultimately, I agree.

But I don't know how sustainable that is in keeping the current "band" together.  At what point do they finally tell Axl that spending a few days a year working on 10 year old songs done by other guys ain't getting it done for them creatively?

In reality, I'd like an album done by actual guys in the band.  Or if some of these songs done back in 2002 are just so awesome, then fine, keep them.  But have the current guys redo them. 

At some point, if these guys aren't ever able to put any real skin in the game, they are going to bounce.  And no one alive could blame them.

Zero times.  No one said this, ever.

I think the reason I'm comfortable with the old stuff coming out as is, or with DJ & Ron simply recording new stuff for existing tracks, is because I really feel that Axl spending a good deal of time in the studio either re-recording these songs entirely, or writing new ones from scratch with the current lineup is an utter pipe-dream at this point.

As we've seen on the leaked demos, the band has been passing around tracks for members to seemingly record stuff in their home-studios and sending it back.  I would guess that's what DJ has been doing as well.

True.  The chances of him starting from scratch and doing 12 new songs with the current guys is a total fantasy.

At this point, I am in total "take whatever I can get" mode.  And I'm probably out of line even wanting that, I'll have to check.

At this point, I think most of us are.  Three years ago, the idea of DJ re-recording one of Robin or Bucket's solos would have had me crying "Blasphemy!"  Now, I just want a fuckin' album any way I can get it.  :-\

Ok let?s say it is true and Interscope is blocking the album. Why doesn?t Axl tell them to go fuck themselves? Why is he tolerating the lack of cooperation from Interscope? Axl should be trying to make a new deal with another record company if he is really willing to make a new album.

I read it on the Internet....  :P

You know, there's even a thread about it in the Dead Horse section: http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/board/index.php?topic=24374.0
Basically saying that one album would've been "better". Now, you can say that the fans were happy with getting all those songs. But the fact remains, some were into the debate of "what if it was just one album" and how amazing that one album would've been...

I guess this happens after a while for some, once the novelty of everything has worn off. Or instantly for others because it's too much at once.


Anyway, I don't think more songs make people happier. The idea of having more, sure. That probably makes people happier. If GN'R put out three albums like Chinese Democracy in the next few years, do you think every GN'R fan would be happy? Hell no.

If they had put out an Oh My God sounding album in 2000 and Chinese Democracy in 2008, would that have made you a happier fan today? You'd still be here saying they didn't promote Chinese properly and that it's been over five years since the last album... ;)




If there's a contract, you can't just tear it up and leave... Right?



/jarmo

Does anyone have Jimmy Iovine's email address?  I think I need to write him a strongly worded letter.  :hihi:

A contract is a 2 way street. And if Interscope is not doing their part then Axl should look for some other company that will be more helpful and more interested in his band and his music.

I've asked this several times, and I can never get an answer.

I'm supposed to believe a man as vengeful and petty as Axl Rose is suffering in silence as he is prevented from doing something he wants to do?

Be serious.

Well, once they got over the initial shock, I think more would be happy than not.

if you are still following Axl in 2014, you are rolling with his craziness.  You aren't still sitting around hoping for 'Anything Goes 2.0'.


Playing along with this line of thinking, that would suggest that he has a consistent band line-up.  There would be some sort of plan and some sort of general direction.

One of these days, god willing, you will realize that the overwhelming bulk of the frustration is the lack of either from Mr. Rose.  There is no plan and no direction.  Just a "band" that doesn't write, record, or release anything.  And when asked about upcoming plans, they laugh at the reporter's questions and say they have no idea.

THERE is Axl's biggest problem.  Again, if we are still with him in 2014, we have made our peace with the line-up changes and different sound.  But its getting really, really old to not see this all going anywhere constructive.  Calling this operation a rudderless ship would actually be overstating things.

More & more, it looks like after the botched release of Chinese Democracy, Axl even called 2009 "the worst year of my life", I really feel like Axl put GNR on autopilot.

He seems content to let Fernando & Beta schedule sporadic touring, while not doing a heck of a lot on the GNR front in between. 

Who knew five years ago when he said "No idea and don't care." in regard to when the next album was coming, how heart-attack serious he was being?  Sad.

About sums it up.

In an ideal world, yes. Without knowing anything about it, it's easy to see how the last experience wasn't a good one for the band. It's not that far fetched to assume the band wants some kind of guarantees before delivering a new album to the same people as last time. Maybe there's a Catch-22 thing going on here.





Must be "nice" to put out the album everyone said would never come out only to have the record label completely ignore it. While some of his fans are already asking what about the next one weeks after the album they "always wanted" was released.... Wonder why he would say such things under those conditions....



/jarmo

You make it sound like Axl did such a great thing by getting Chinese out because "everyone" said it wasn't coming out.  Wow Axl, we are so blessed that you made it possible to get that album out.  I can't believe the amount of pressure you must have been under.  Wait, wasn't the reason why people said it would never come out, was because of your tinkering/perfectionism/etc in the first place??

Ohhhh, that is so horrible that fans would ask about other albums.  I feel for you Axl, you have it sooo tough!  Although, weren't you the one who always said you had multiple albums worth of material??  How dare fans ask about other albums.  I feel so sorry for you Axl. 


Stop jarmo, just stop!

You keep saying this and people have responded pointing out the flaws in your argument but you just ignore what's said and repeat yourself in a different thread.  What's up with that??

Luckily, there's a copy n' paste function.  Here you go...

 

P.S.  Add Robin to the list of people who have a positive opinion of Axl and the experience.  : ok:
http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/board/index.php?topic=65634.msg1360630#msg1360630

Well he proved everybody who said so wrong.  :P





You don't think it's kinda ironic that for years we heard these fans say "all we need is the album" only to use their first opportunity to ask Axl anything to ask about when the next one is coming out.... I think it's somewhat telling of how some fans think. That's all.




You wish.



/jarmo

Catch-22 would be a nice name for the next album

Jarmo, 90% of the hard core fans had 90% of the album they'd be waiting for, can you fault them to wonder about the other 2 Chinese albums they were told about ! ?

Here in Ontario Canada there were tv ads for Chinese Democracy and they were pretty good too, thats one thing record the label did for promotion.

Good post damnthehaters....had to be said.  I'm as big a fan of  Axl as you can get, but sometimes Jarmo is a little much !  :hihi:

Some people take this shit to seriously, like they work for the record company or something. I wouldn't want to be pressured into anything if I knew I didn't own my own songs.

And as for me, I'll take whatever GNR i can get when i can get it.

The bottom line is this, if GNR isn't planning on releasing music, than tell us.  Most people would move on.  If you do plan on releasing music, than release it for Gods sake.  Their are multiple avenues to let music be heard. 
[/quote]


Do you want Axl to tell you when he's going to the bathroom as well?

I guess people never read your disclaimer  ???

Do you want Axl to tell you when he's going to the bathroom as well?
[/quote]



Yes!!! Going to the bathroom is underrated. See, Freddie Mercury wrote Crazy Little Thing Call Love in the bathroom. So the bathroom deserves credit from time to time  :hihi:

jokes asides. Look my life doesn?t revolve around a new GN?R album. Far from being my number one priority. However we know there are many songs that have been recorded. We know the title of some these songs. Besides Axl has a band, they are touring. It would make more sense to tour with an album at some point. If for whatever reason Axl can?t make a new album. I think he should be honest and fair about it.  On the other hand if they are working on an album as we speak then let the fans know about it. I?m not asking for a release date. But at least tell fans to look forward to something. If the band want fans to buy tickets and merch then give them some information in return.

Look, a football manager doesn't do the laundry in public when he's under contract, even if the owners/chairman is assholes.

That might be the situation Axl's in. Even if the relationship is sour, it doesn't gain a new release if Axl complain about Interscope before it's out. It doesn't gain us neither.

All you need is just a little patience....

'2000 Intentions' was a hilarious title.  Shame it didn't work out.

So who signed this contract? If it's bad for GNR, that's only Axl fault and his management.

Whoa, hold on there Jethro.  We're talking about a contract that was signed something like 22 years ago.

A contract that we obviously have no idea what it entails. 

A contract that allowed for not only years and years of changes to production, management, artists and God-only-knows what else but also allowed 'whomever' to force a release before either side was satisfied with the end product or how to effectively release/promote it.

We have no idea how the changes to the personnel on either side over the years affected the contract. 

We have no idea how many albums are to be released to satisfy the contract. 

You asked "So who signed this contract?".
The answer is BOTH SIDES signed it.

Well, I can tell you this much.  If, at the very least, the setlists during the upcoming tour contain at least a couple new songs (and I'm not talking about throwing another Illusion era song into the mix or adding 'Riad') it will show that they're at least trying to move in the direction of another release.

If not... :nervous:

I think the answer lies in this link:

https://www.google.nl/search?q=louis+osbourne&oq=louis+os&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l5.3310j0j7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=91&ie=UTF-8#q=axl+rose+net+worth

Axl Rose has an estimated net worth of over 150 million dollars. He does not need to release new music. I am not implying he doesn't care about the fans, or the ones who helped him get where he is now (music fans), but he can simply do everything on his own terms. And I think that's what he is doing right now. And I can really understand that! Even though I have a 9 - 5 job, and am far from rich or independent. But it's what I would do if I were rich: only do things on my own terms.

If the record company does not want to release his music, why should he care? I hope he sits it out, and waits until that moment they let him go, and he can release music on his own terms, in his own way.

Axl Rose is the sincerest musician/rock star I have seen so far: he makes his art the only way he wants to.

There's no doubt that he's a rich guy. He has made his money again by touring. However, if he goes through another period of inactivity then he can easily be bankrupt. He had to sell his share in rights of  AFD in order to avoid  bankruptcy.   Additionally,  look at how he rented an apartment in Tribeca and never lived there, recently. It's hard to make money, but easy to lose it. 

If certain rock stars suddenly became as apathetic as Axl seemingly is about putting out new music just because they're rich and can do as they damn well please, we'd be in a pretty depressing place right now musically.

And, yes, what some people around here consider integrity, I consider apathy.

"He had to sell his share in rights of  AFD in order to avoid  bankruptcy."

Is this true? I don't recall that being the reason...

This is what I was referring to: http://www.billboard.com/biz/articles/news/1419426/axl-rose-signs-to-sanctuary-publishing. I had thought that Axl sold his rights to AFD. This caused Slash and Duff not to get the royalty checks.

"Dozens of new tracks"    :drool:

it was never officially titled as being THE reason. however Axl said himself in 12/2008 that dropping the GN'R name would have been financial suicide - at least for living his lifestyle. also during that time of the publishing deal, Geffen stopped financial support for CD.
and Merck also told about touring being an important money maker for Axl & Co. apparently money is an issue for Axl he cant ignore too much.

Personally I hope we get a couple new songs on these shows. It would be nice if the band did a couple new songs to do and tide us long time fans over.

Touring is important for most bands.
Where do you think Metallica makes their money from? It's not from 3D concert action movies or Orion Music festivals. Somehow they have to pay to do those things....
By the way, they didn't release a new album since 2008 and they'll go out on tour later this year...  :)




/jarmo

I would counter that point by asking how many albums do they have? Didn't they RELEASE a MOVIE recently? How often did they deviate from their original lineup?Have they been keeping their fans informed about what's going on? Just making points since you are comparing Metallica to GNR. :)   

I'm not comparing. I was just pointing out that even the band that's considered the biggest metal band around needs to tour to make money.
Touring as a way to generate income is not something specific to GN'R, no matter what some might want you to believe by labeling GN'R's tours as "cash grabs" and whatever nonsense they can come up with.





/jarmo

Ok. Fair enough. I see your point there.

sometimes its strange that people like to talk in parable and theoretical terms... isnt it just easier to ask a straight question get a straight answer?

Jarmo:

1) Do you know more about GNR album plans than we do but can't talk about them? (No harm in a yes or no, as an insider I find it hard to believe you wouldnt know anything at all)

2) Have you heard new music? (same as above)

Please don't answer that you don't know unless that is genuinely the truth, I know and agree that it isnt your place to say anything, but answering these questions isnt really revealing plans or anything of the sort.

Wow.  Not only do you not see the harm in answering yes or no to questions that if he does know "but can't talk about them" and "isn't (his) place to say anything" but you're already insinuating that he isn't going to be telling the genuine truth if he doesn't give the answer you want to hear.

Priceless. Truly priceless.  :rofl:

if he doesnt want to answer them then thats his choice, there is no malice behind my questions, i have met Jarmo multiple times and i would hope he would think of me as a polite and courteous fan of the band. the point i am trying to make with that post is no one asks direct questions, and your patronizing tone is not appreciated. i am not an idiot.

am i requesting details? no. I am not even asking if the plans relate to an album being released or not released purely that there is talk ongoing. (too many differing stories from band members, yet nothing from anyone else in the camp, or connected to the camp)

Jarmo, answer as you wish.

Yeah, but Metallica doesn't have another finished album that was supposed to drop the following year that's been collecting dust for the last five plus years now.

And the point I'm trying to make is that asking questions, direct or otherwise, to someone who you say you "know and agree that it isn't (his) place to say anything" is ridiculous!  And if he (or anyone) does know the answers but was asked not to talk about them, why would he betray their confidence and talk about them??

And just imagine how insane (and not in a good way) the internet would go if he were to answer those two particular questions you asked?  Doesn't matter if he answers yes or no to either or both, he'd be lambasted beyond belief!!!  Even you already insinuated you won't believe him if he doesn't give the answer you want.  "Please don't answer that you don't know unless that is genuinely the truth".  He would be labeled either a liar or attention seeker or worse!

There's talk going on but you want someone other than the band members to answer your questions because you don't like that even the actual band members have different perspectives on the band's plans??

all I can say is you are placing intention onto my questions that was not there and never intended to be.

please dont tell me what I am or am not trying to do and why or why not I am trying to do it, you don't know me and your assumptions about my motives are incorrect.

Jarmo, please feel free to PM me if you want if my questions are unreasonable.

for anyone who is thinking I am after an essay about when how and why, I honestly would expect nothing more than a "It's been talked about but other than that I dont know anything, or "It's been talked about but thats all I can say" and "Yes I have/No I have not heard new music that the public hasnt heard"

If Jarmo answers that he doesnt know, I will believe him that he doesnt know. I'm not calling anyone a liar.

I know the same as you. That Axl wanted to release the next album roughly a year after Chinese, which is what he said in his online chats back then.





/jarmo

Also, Metallica's letting its fans pick the setlist for their next tour, as a treat for their fans. That's pretty f'ing cool...and here we are hoping for 2-3 new songs without a clear definition of what "new" means.   

 http://www.blabbermouth.net/news/metallica-to-let-fans-pick-setlist-for-european-shows/

GNR has added many songs that fans wanted to hear over the last few years.  Fans spoke of Civil War, Estranged, Used to Love Her, etc.  These songs were added to their set lists.  I even remember a couple people (myself included) talking about Down On The Farm around 2006 and they played it at the show I was at in Portland.  So I wouldn't go there if I was you. 

Of course. They need a "new reason" to tour.  ;)
Last time they were in Europe, they played the Black album in full. Now it's requests. What do you think the odds are that these request shows will be different from their past tours? You expect them to stop playing their hits?





/jarmo

Uh, really?  For shits, compare the 2006 Rock am Ring setlist, found here http://www.setlist.fm/setlist/guns-n-roses/2006/nurburgring-nurburg-germany-33d698ad.html with their setlist from Toronto last year, found here.  http://www.setlist.fm/setlist/guns-n-roses/2013/sound-academy-toronto-on-canada-2bc6bc66.html

Pretty sure I can go there.

Touche, Jarmo.  So, what's GnR's "new reason" to tour?

I didn't ask. But speaking as a fan, touring sure is more exciting than not touring.
A band that's active is more exciting than a band not being active.

I'm sure you can understand. For example, you can't find a set list from a show you didn't attend in 2003, 2004 or 2005 to complain about.  :D




/jarmo

Why do we attack fans for not attending shows and then discussing or bring critical of the setlist?   if we dont or cant pony up thousands of dollars on tickets and travel expenses we dont deserve a voice?

I really don't get it... I go to the shows in the New York area and have been to a couple vegas shows...i don't see why that makes me any more or less qualified to want new songs in shows coming up in South America, or be unhappy that they didn't play a Chinese Democracy favorite of mine


the bottom line with people complaining about the set list has to do with the original band not being  there and we all know it ... if they played 10 songs off CD  and not as many covers as they do along with Jungle PC SCOM and November rain... there would be much less complaining on the forums

maybe... that would lead to declining ticket sales... I couldnt answer that tho

And did what, exactly, to achieve that?  During that year or any year since?

Yeah, I'd agree that, generally, touring is better than not touring...but only to a point.  To me, it's not as black and white.  Touring for a purpose (i.e. new album, new music) is certainly better than not touring.  However, if touring is getting in the way and preventing you from making new music/album, then, IMO, touring is not better.  I'd rather have the band not tour if it meant they were working towards releasing a new album.

Over the past few years, I've seen GnR several times, with little variation in the setlist.  I've had a great time at each show, but, after several shows of essentially the same performance, it becomes a little stale.  That's why I'm excited that the plan is to play "new" songs on this tour.  I'm hoping the purpose of the 2014 tour is to move towards a new album.

That's really a commentary on what being a GNR fan is in 2014.

"Its literally better than nothing" is supposed to be a big win for us.

"Why do we attack"? If you comment on something, somebody might comment on what you said. It's called a discussion.

To me there's something a bit amusing reading comments about shows on the Internet, from people who weren't there, and remembering seeing thousands of fans having a great time at said show.





Yes, for me it is.
I remember how it was when I started this site. Back in the 1900s...  : ok:





/jarmo

I think "it's better than nothing" is setting the bar a little too low for a tour...

To be honest, I'd have rather you answered my other question, Jarmo.  

It's not setting the bar for a tour.
It's saying, it's better to have an active band than not having an active band. That's logic to me. For some of you, it's not since you disagree.




Answer: I don't know.




/jarmo

I'm not sure any of us disagree.  We disagree when you tell us this should be seen as manna from heaven. 

On the basest level, yes, something is better than nothing.  What would be better would be the same tour dates we are supposed to think are awesome, with a  new album to support behind it.



Oh, come on now.  I think we both know.  Zip, zero, nothing.

This.  So very much, this.   :yes:

If they're doing everything in their power behind the scenes to get the next album out, well then we have no real podium to stand on.  But the truth is, we have absolutely zilch that eludes to that being the case.

No, we don't know. Unlike you, I don't assume that I know something I don't know.




/jarmo

That's the spirit!  You sound more and more like member of GNR every day!  :hihi:

Is there any factual basis for the belief that the label may be holding a new album back? Or is this pure speculation/propaganda to deflect blame from the most logical culprit? It blows my mind how people can twist and contort themselves out of all logic just to justify an ideology. Why is the simplest answer never the case with these people. Why is there always some complex conspiracy theory??

The fact is Axl took over the GNR name for reasons that have been long debated. it was up to him to justify his actions and step up to the plate. he talked about his visions, talked about recording and talked steering the ship. many people have talked about Slash and Duff being drunks and junkies but they always seemed capable of writing recording and playing on a regular basis. The sober one only managed these things spasmodically. It seems...and I do emphasise that word, that Axl has not had anyone capable of pushing him into releasing music for many years. Perhaps having control is not actually in Axl's best interests?? It certainly hasn't been creatively IMHO.

Face facts. Multiple former (and current) band members, producers and so on have recounted how difficult it is to get Axl to be productive. So what would lead anyone to believe that this isn't the case as far as a new album is concerned?

Fact is that it is not the case because those same multiple former and current band members and producers and so on have recounted how there's enough material done to fill like 3 or more albums so Axl obviously did his parts on those songs.

Those songs are in a completed form?? We know this how? I have no doubt there are quite a number of demo's or sketches but no idea of the quality of these songs or whether they are simply demo's in various stages of completion. The fact Ron says the band have not written a song since 2008I think it was should give some indication.

Even then the list of former band mates and producers who have either expressed frustrations about Axl's inability to work on or release music is very long so I stand by my comment as being factual.

There is a factual basis to raise the possibility that the label may be unwilling to release a new GN'R album, yes.  Jimmy Iovine brought in Bob Ezrin to work as an A&R-type with GN'R and Axl met with him.  As Ezrin told the story, Axl told him that at the point he wanted to mix the album and thought it was ready for that.  Ezrin disagreed and said the album wasn't ready to mix.  So, someone representing Jimmy Iovine and the label did reject Chinese Democracy in its form then.  Additionally, this is the same label that rejected MIA's latest album multiple times allegedly due to its overly "dark" tone.

So, yes, it's certainly possible.

Ali

Guys let?s face it. Axl doesn?t have a nice and smooth relationship with the industry. And there isn?t buzz out there for a new album. So it doesn?t make sense for Axl and the record company to make an album only because 5 to 10 fans around forums want it.

What should Axl and the record company do? In my own personal opinion they should put 5 new songs on iTunes or Youtube to taste the waters. If there is huge demand and buzz from the general public and the media around the world. Well only then they should release an album. If nobody gives a fuck outside forum. Why bother? Making an album is very expensive and it?s unfair for the band  and the label to lose money.

As for touring, well in the last 2 or 3 years it has been an AFD Tour with a couple of CD and UYI as fillers. Is it an AFD Tour better than nothing? Yes. I don?t want Axl to take another 7 years nap nor to call it a day. But the more they play those songs, the more I miss the good old days.I really don?t think CD was worthy of everything that went on, break up, revolving door band members, revolving door managers, lawsuits and so much pain for Axl, fans and everyone involved.

But at what point do the other guys in the band ask what the hell they are doing here?

Think about it.  We ask it everyday, and we don't even have any skin in this game.  These guys (at least some of them) worked really hard on all this stuff that never gets heard.  That's not frustrating?  They are musicians by trade.  As a rule, they write, record, and release music.

Know what sucks?  This guys have been good soldiers.  I'd argue, WELL above and beyond the call on that front.  One day they are going to say the hell with all of this, and then what will happen online?  People will shit on them for being disloyal and "not onboard".  As if they haven't been sitting patiently for YEARS waiting for something, anything to go on before eventually throwing up their hands.

And the first one to tell me "well, they must be alright with it all because they are still there, smartguy" simply doesn't get the point, and frankly, never will.

Hunter Hearst Helmsley and the Heartbreak kid could not have said it better themselves!   ;D

I know its not their style to communicate anything....and is probably a bad move legally...but if there efforts are being rejected...I wish they would come out and say that ... It would clear a lot of things up

I understand the sentiment.

But, while that may help us understand the situation, would it really help the situation move towards some kind of resolution?

Maybe it would have no effect.  Maybe it would actually have an adverse effect. 

Ali

What exactly have Robin, Bucket or Tommy done to give an extra push to help the CD sales? What makes you think they care about unreleased music when they didn?t do much on their own to get bigger sales numbers for their released music? There is a new Robin interview. And his comments on CD are kinda too technical. I didn?t see passion and love for the CD material.

I think they have shown they don?t care that much. Most of them have alternative bands. Sixx AM, Dead Daisies, The Replacements. NIN, Bucket and Ron have their own solo projects. They are happy. They are now more famous because of the GN?R name. And they have more fans now. But they haven?t brought new fans into GN?R. How many NIN fans are now also GN?R fans? How many Replacements fans are now also GN?R fans? That?s actually one of my problems with the new guys.

 Sometimes I wish they leave soon. I?m sick of this BS. The problem is the old guys won?t come back. And Axl is too proud and arrogant to see that this whole thing is a bullshit.

My issue with some of the members was that they admitted to not being fans of the music before they joined.... i find that to be extrmeely annoying and troubling.... but they play the songs every night... robin said it, Tommy said it...Fortus said it... and im pretty sure im missing somebody ... at this point I dont think anybody is walking away any time soon... not with a new tour starting up in about 45 days

i think you are right... some of the players are just content with the way things are ... so why make a change...why theya re content... who knows other than themselves

it's true that I had never heard of any them prior to them playing with Axl...id assume thats the number 1 reason to stay



The whole situation as far as the label is obviously really messy.... and it doesnt look like we will be getting any clarifications soon... I'm sure Jarmo knows a lot...but he aint no rat !  :)

You very well might be right, it could make things worse.

Why is that an issue?  :)





/jarmo

ha you are the last person im looking to debate anything GNR related with......  :)

lets put it this way ... i love the Ny Rangers...and when they got Eric Lindros who bashed the Rangers for years and hated our guts to play for them... I wanted nothing to do with it : )

I take that as a compliment. :)


Not exactly the same thing. Lindros was in teams who were competing against the Rangers.
While before joining GN'R, these guys were in bands who weren't necessarily part of the same scene.

It's safe to assume they weren't picked because they were already fans, they were picked because they can play.



/jarmo

I agree with Princess Leia and Jaeball. Princess Leia, you probably missed Brain. He was the one who said he is in it for the money. Nothing will ever beat the original lineup. The chemistry and heart of the originals are unbeatable. The only person that I truly believe has the heart for this lineup is Bumblefoot. I just don't get the same sense of urgency from anyone else.

Nonsense. So you're actually saying Dizzy. DJ, Tommy, Frank, Richard nor Pitman have their heart in this? I repeat: No sense  :P ::)

 ::) some people amaze me.

 :rofl:

I don't sense the same urgency as I get with Bumblefoot. He's the one going against the wind on this. Maybe the other guys are frustrated, but don't want to say anything publicly. I think Bumblefoot is the guy who is really lighting it up publicly. I think Axl needs someone to light a fire under his a$$. I think someone in this post said that maybe it was not in the best interests  of Axl to assume totally control of GNR. I think that's somewhat becoming apparent. 

It's his. He used the name first and it gives him economical benefits.

Not saying it's anything wrong with it, but some people want really much from a band of veteran adults.

I think it's far more than "somewhat apparent".
Creatively, his career went in the toilet after implosion of classic lineup.
It was plunged out for a minute to release Chinese Democracy, then flushed right back down.

Of the alumni, he's the only one not producing.

I feel it's more than safe to say that creatively, it was definitely not in Axl's, or Guns N' Roses best interest for him to assume control.

If he had moved on from the GN'R name, short of retirement, it would have been difficult for him to produce less than he has post Spaghetti Incident.

Granted this is with the benefit of hindsight. I always assumed the roles would have been reversed, but now it's pretty clear he needed them more.

He needed them more to kick him in the ass some.

What the past 15 years have shown us is a world where Axl has no checks or balances.

You are confusing creativity with releasing material. Because Axl isn't releasing material for you to dissect, according to your wishes and your schedules, you're claiming he's not creative.
There's more creativity on Chinese Democracy than some bands manage in their whole careers.  :P




/jarmo

No, I'm pretty clear on the difference between creativity and the release of material.
Kind of goes hand in hand though in Axl's line of work.

You can only pull out that excuse so many times before the teacher stops giving you the benefit of the doubt.
"I did my homework, I just forgot it at home."

Maybe the dog ate Axl's homework?

I don't make the schedule, but I think he'd be running a tad late on anyone outside this forums watch.

Again, that's a nice optimistic theory that there's a bunch of music in the vaults ready to go, and I hope it's true.
Until then, in the vault, non existent, what's the difference?

If a bear shits in the woods?

You can be creative without releasing the output. If a painter doesn't sell or display a single painting, (s)he's not creative?

You can be upset about there not being more material for you to "enjoy", that's fine. And most of us get it. Some of us were there ten years ago when people were doing the same thing....But please be careful what kind of generalizations you make.




/jarmo

Let me get this straight.

People can't say he hasn't been creative because there is simply not a lot of output over the past 15 years.  That's no good.  Yes?

You come back that he's actually creating his red haired ass off, and despite the same lack of tangible output to back you up on that...we are supposed to accept your take and discredit the opposite?  Does that make sense?

Jarmo, its the same argument.  We don't have output, so we have nothing.  Who the hell knows, pro OR con?  You going down this road that Axl may well be creating on pace not seen since the prime days of the good lord himself (but just hasn't released it) is just you looking for your typical good spin on a grim situation.

I have seem political campaign managers that can't hold a candle to you, my friend.  No man test.

You can only judge his creative output between 1993 and 2008 by listening to Chinese Democracy and Oh My God, that's true. But those of us who have read articles know that the creative output didn't stop with the tracks included on that album and the one track on the End of Days soundtrack. Hell, the band even performed a song live that they haven't released yet....




/jarmo

  ???  Uhhh No, (s)he is not.

Who gives a person the label of being creative?  Themselves?  No, its the people who view/listen to that persons work.  If there isn't output, then there is nothing to view or listen to.  And you can't label someone as being creative when there is nothing.

 

 

I agree, you're reaching here Jarmo. We're supposed to hang our admiration on something we're not sure that even exists?

IMO, no.  But, the issue is not admiration or lack thereof.  The creative process and the decision to release something for commercial purposes are not one and the same. 

There's a difference between there actually being no creative output and you not having heard or seen said creative output.

Ali

But couldn't you make the exact same argument in the reverse direction. It's hard to assume something exists that I haven't seen or heard.

Wow. We're getting so deep here. And not all of us feel like swimming.

"It's hard to assume something exists that I haven't seen or heard.". I can say the same thing about God and religion.

"If a painter doesn't sell or display a single painting, (s)he's not creative?". So, by this philosophical query, if Axl falls in a forest, does he make an album?

Why hasn't the label dropped Guns N' Roses? So many bands and artists over time have been dropped for one reason or another, for MUCH LESS. Is it because the past catalog is more valuable? Is the label trying to recoup form Chinese Democracy before doing one more thing going forward? By looking at history, for what CD has become, what is still binding Guns to the label? With technology being what it is, there's so many avenues to release something. ANYTHING. That is, unless there's some contractual obligation, or something, or MANY things that have basically grinded things to an absolute dead calm.

We're fans. There's a give and take. To say that we should admire the fact that Axl may or may not be "creative" when he sits alone in his house is a moot point.

This is the GNR fan equivalent to asking "If a tree falls in the woods, does it make a sound?"  My answer would be, as far as Axl's concerned, I could give a shit.  I just want a new album already.

Hahahaha.

What I think sometimes gets lost here is that we are just speculating based the next to nothing he gives us.  But none of us are testifying in court here.  No need to get backs up, either way.

Nothing can be proven or disproven until he shows us something.  If he actually did release another album, we can judge that on its merits, whatever they may be.

But "he's on the job, don't you worry about the lack of product to find out"?  Nah, be serious.

Except for the fact that there are people who have heard the work, in this case anyone in the band, Marco Beltrami, Sebastian Bach and many others.

I'm not of the opinion that because I haven't heard a song, even though others have, it doesn't exist.  That would be tantamount to saying those that have claimed to heard said song are lying, and I have no reason to say that.

Ali

Maybe one day we will have a new album. Maybe one day (if we do have a new album) we know what happened until its release. For now, there's no album. Well, there's one hell of an album we waited for so many long years. So let's enjoy what we have instead of bitching on what we don't have. In the end, it's Axl decision. Of course I wanted a new album for tomorrow but I'm very ok if there's a new album in 5 years or 10. Or maybe never. What's good for Axl is good for me, that's how I see it - it's about respect - if for whatever reasons it takes too long to be released or its never released, nobody can force him to do it and after so many years of joy this band has giving me, the last thing I would do is to demand or try to force something on a person who gave me so much and helped me so much through his songs and interviews over the years. And I see it this way not only as regards Axl but as regards other bands and artists. They don't owe one damn thing to the fans. If and when they decide to release something, it's up to you and me and everybody else to decide if we want to get inside that new trip of that band / artist OR not. No one is forced to be here or to "wait". Because if you're waiting, it's useless.
I do hope for the best that everything happens the way Axl wants. We all know (for the little we know) that many things didn't happen the way it was supposed to be when CD was released so if there's a new album in the future years ahead, hopefully it happens the right way. 

Everybody involved has talked about there being things we haven't heard. Things exist.




Why do some of you want a new GN'R album so bad? Did you like Chinese Democracy? I'm curious what kind of expectations some of you have.
Do you still listen to Chinese Democracy regularly?



/jarmo

Wait, you are saying one his close friends and a guy he hired came back with good reviews?  The hell you say.

Wow, this is a serious question?  Why do we want a new album from our favorite band?  Really?

And you think this concept is somehow exclusive to Guns N' Roses fans?  Do other band's fans sit around and say "Tell you what we don't need, and that's a new album.  That's the last thing we want.  No thank you."

In short, because I love Chinese Democracy and the thought of another album along those lines is seriously badass. The fact that it exists, with great songs meant for the follow up album, yet for whatever reason Axl won't put it out is pretty frustrating.

Axl is most everyone at this site's favorite singer ever, if not favorite artist overall.

If you are still riding with him in 2014, then you like what he's doing.  You liked the last album. 

The only logical opinion is to want the next one after 5 long years pass.  This is not some radical stance.

Oh, so it is your favorite band.
Sometimes it's easy to get confused.  :D




Got it.




/jarmo

To ask any fan still with Axl in 2014 (after ONE album between 1993 and 2014) why they want a new album means that you are not an actual fan of the music. If you don't understand why then you have nothing in common with a real fan.

It's hard to reconcile that comment with any form of credibility in the real world.

Fact is he took the reigns and made one album.....that's it. Spin and speculate all you want. He released one album.

But, but , but....... Seb "Sorry is doom metal' Bach says Axl is 'prolific'. To attack the fans is disgusting. It's a real shoot the messenger story.The fans are an easy target for remembering the story of boy who cried wolf, we can't all just toe the line. Some of us have rational faculties.

It's a valid question. Some fans who "needed" Chinese Democracy to make their lives better forgot about the album pretty soon because it turned out it wasn't what they "wanted".

Some fans seem to be fans of a GN'R that doesn't exist. "I'm a fan... But I don't like this, this, this, this and that about the band". It's just somewhat puzzling how many things you don't like about a band and yet you're still a fan.

Then you have fans who rarely, if ever, manage to say anything nice about the band. But they want a new album.....




/jarmo

Actually, at this point, and for the past few years, I don't want a new album, at least under the terms of releasing it on a major label, at all. If GNR was free from any contractual point with a label, and can do things on their own terms, that would be a better album, no matter what the song qualities are. Is it me, or are most parts just toxic or comatose by this point?

Did I like the album, yes. Did I love the album, no. Looking back, you know what I really liked? The legend of the album of Chinese Democracy. Regardless of whatever artistic direction Chinese Democracy was taking, I was all for the ride in the 00s. But to me, the legend of what it was outstretched the creative result that the album was.

No, have not listened to it in god knows how long (let's say at least a year). I've just not found the mood to listen to it again, and that's just me. I mean that as a compliment. It's a well produced album, with some very decent songs. But it's fallen down the list, and not for a bunch of new stuff.

Chinese Democracy is a fan's album, not a general, everyday music fan album. The Chinese Democracy legend before and afterwards envelopes it almost to a point that it (the album) cannot breathe on it's own. And from a business perspective (the next album, the DVD, the barnstorming tour dates), forgive me for asking, but....where do we go.....ok, my sincere apologies for that.

So going by the above, this may not seem like the popular vote. But at least it's honest.

Well, in defense of the rabble rousing complainers, we don't all get to go on tour with them.  Not really an apples to apples situation, you know?

Very well said.

I sometimes wonder if its being suggested we'd prefer complaining over nothing happening than having a competent operation to follow.  Like this shit show is our preference on how things should run.

I think you raise an interesting point. "On their own terms". This is something that comes with integrity. I think Axl Rose is an artist who has lots of it.
Seems like this is sometimes forgot about. Like integrity isn't important as long as you put out music for the fans to enjoy.



Is my different point of view an issue for you?





You refer to your favorite band as a shit show? Because they don't do things according to your wishes.





/jarmo

You can consider me of those fans, and thats quite alright.... I am a fan of Axl Rose.. that is why i want a new album... I could care less about the other people in the band and I could care less about how many times they perform in brazil and I could care less about how evil the record label is anymore...

but Axl is my guy when it comes to entertainment...and I want to be entertained... I think due to ur personal relationships with these people you forget that we dont have those relationships....and dont give a shit about how they might feel... why would we? dont know them and they dont know me

we are FANS ... im sorry if being an Axl Rose fan doesnt equate to the way he/they/you want us to be fans , sugar coating the whole process


you wont see me posting about axl's lovelife, or his weight or why he walks around with that 500 dollar cane lol ...all not important.. just like to see a new record with songs we all know are out there in some form and one goddam DVD !!!!!

Not at all. And I have said many times on many sites that in a moment of pure honesty, not a one of us would not have accepted the deal you got going on.

But, having said that, despite the bravado in your sig, not a living soul actually believes that routine.  Your point of view is the band's point of view, always.  Is what it is.



That is an inaccurate takeaway from that comment.

I refer to the way the operation has been run for the past 10 years or so as a shit show, because its the only logical conclusion.  They are my favorite band to listen to, no question about it.  But the way they run the business side of their operation is comically inept.  Its basically a blueprint of how NOT to do things.

So you're not one of those "this band needs to make an album together to prove they're a real band" people?




Funny.

How exactly do you see this happening in real life? I mean, what I post and how it relates to the "band's point of view"?
I'd love to hear some of your theories about this.






Last ten years? So you're not supposed to release an album, tour, do interviews, launch an official web site, have a fan club and go back to play places where you had "issues" in the past. for example.



I just remembered the old frustration thread we had for people like yourself.... Maybe we need a new one.... :hihi:



/jarmo

i really dont care what they do as far that goes... obviously Axl has shown no interest in doing a new album with these guys to his point... thats up to him really...

i just want something at this point.... yeah in a perfect world ... I think they would/should make new music...the lead guitarist has even said it... but lets be real... not happening any time soon

so ill take any record Axl wants to give us now

And how about this one, it's a classic: Do you feel like you're owed an album? And if so, whats the reason(s)?




/jarmo

yes I am owed an album : )

you can tell that to Axl for me lol


i really dont know where that notion of fans being owed came from..... the minute people dont want a new album ro stop going tot he shows... then i guess itll be all over.... luckily for Axl that wont happen... he is too talented and has some real die hards like myself

agree to disagree i guess..... i like you jarmo... i respect what you do here

I've told you this several times.

If you ever veered out of lock step with a band position, that news would ring out on every GNR board on the net.  People would think it was a bullshit story, and they would rush over here right quick to see for themselves.  It would be that newsworthy of an event.

Even you simply dropping an innocuous "yeah, that maybe could have been handled better" would be a pick your jaw back up shocker.  You find fault with nothing.  You hide behind lame rationale like "it doesn't matter what I think" to avoid having to say anything critical.

Honest assessment?  I think in a quiet moment, you likely think some things are mishandled.   Are you ever going to say that publically?  Absolutely not.  You are on a gravy train with biscuit wheels and you aren't rolling the dice on derailing that train for anything.  And once again, I don't see the flaw in that thinking, given your prime slot in the GNRverse.  But you insult our intelligence with this "I'm just speaking for me" bit, and nevermind how it NEVER deviates from a sunshine assessment of current affairs.  

We're not fools, Jarmo.  We all know the score.


Is that like a "free speech zone" they set up at political events for the people with signs?  The cages far away from the actual event?  Did this thread have its own folder you had to struggle to even find?

No.  But its illogical to suggest a fan would not like to have one. 

Quentin Tarantino is my favorite director.  I don't sit around saying, damn, I sure hope he doesn't make any more movies.

Roger Federer is probably my favorite athlete.  I have never found myself saying I wish he didn't play in tournaments.

yup yup and yup

So wait, because I see things differently, I'm scared to say what I "really think"?
Nice one.

The whole "things could've been handled differently" thing. Things that happened in the past, I don't dwell on them. If something didn't go as planned, you learn from it and move on. I don't see the point in making some kind of lists of things that happened or didn't happen according to my liking, when I might know the reason(s) why or I have no fucking clue about the subject. "I know this happened because of that and I understand the chain of events, but I don't like it!". I guess that kind of thinking makes some people happier. So they can tell the world they're not happy about something. Like the weather...

Just like I don't think about the 2003 or 2005 F1 seasons thinking about what Kimi should've done differently to have won the championships. It's in the past, dwelling on it won't change the past.


As a fan, 2008 to now has been a big improvement compared to say the late 1990s. Just because they didn't release a new album recently doesn't make everything shit and depressing. Not to me at least.





You think I'm stupid. It's ok.
As fans, of course we want out favorite band to release new music. Or new anything.

There's a difference in wanting new music and feeling like you're owed it though. One is positive, the other is something negative.



/jarmo

You are free at any time to express an opinion different from the company line.  Unless there is some reason you'd rather not, of course.



So your argument is that what we have now beats complete silence for years at a time.  I doubt anyone disagrees.  But talk about a low bar, no?


Wow, lot of strawmen here.

I have never once called you stupid.  Nor have I ever said I was owed anything, and just expressly told you that was not the case.

You constantly prop up those phony arguments to knock down though.  Lame.

I say what I want to. It's my opinion. Nobody else's.
Unless my post says: "________ thinks that", or I prove a source for/a link to what I post, it's my opinion.




I'm talking about things improving. You can't disagree with that.

Low bar? Which one works better for you? Going from nothing to what we have and being happy, or going from nothing to this and being upset that you didn't get what you wanted?






When you need to point out to me (a fan) that fans want new material, it's kinda assuming I must be stupid for not realizing that.





If you read my original question, you would see where the owed thing came from. But you ignored it, and then attack me for bringing it back up.



/jarmo

And the fact it never deviates...ever...just one of life's happy little accidents?

And the fact that when the "complaints, complaints, complaints" start up, you've never seen one with any merit, just another coincidence?

Roles reversed, you buying that?  Wait, let me guess - "It wouldn't matter what you thought".  Something like that?

All I know is, when this band started touring Chinese in 09, whenever asked about the next album they would usually chuckle and say something like "I promise, it won't take as long...We've recorded so much!...etc."

The recording process for Chinese started in 1998, and ultimately took 10 years to put out when all was said and done, with another album supposedly ready to go soon thereafter. This year, it'll be 6 years since Chinese Democracy dropped, with still no sign of the next one.

Are we really seeing an improvement here?  What's the friggin' problem this time?

Draining, really.  :confused:

Do you believe in conspiracies?

My point of view is different from yours. For example, some people are concerned about what the people of the Internet will think of them, I don't. So something like that will obviously give that person a different point of view.

The funny thing is that time after time you make these claims, yet offer no proof of it being true, only "it must be true because I say so".

Do you honestly think I know what everybody in the band or working for the band thinks of every single issue I comment on?


I just think the constant whining about shit, without even a hint of trying to be constructive, is a waste of time. That's just me. I didn't check what the band thinks about that. Sorry.





/jarmo

You really want my honest opinion?  Fine, here it is.

I think if you strayed too far off the reservation, you would get a talking to.  And I think you know this full well, so you don't rock the boat, lest jeopardize your spot in the overall infrastructure.

That's what I think.  Might as well lay all the cards on the table, as they say.  Enough tap dancing around it.

Really? :D

How do they keep track of what I say? How would this talking to materialize?



/jarmo

We have seen what happens when certain well-known admins step on management/GNR's toes.  It gets ugly. And they absolutely keep tabs on you guys.  Ab-so-fucking-lutely.

Can I ask a question:

Why does every discussion have to descend into a dissertation about jarmo, his opinions, and whether he's objective or not?

Because, honestly, it's right fucking boring.  And it has nothing to do with GnR, really.

If you think jarmo is a lacky, and is being intellectually dishonest...give that due weight to his opinions and move on.

If you think jarmo is giving his honest opinion, and is being straight forward...give that due weight to his opinions and move on.

The constant gamesmanship has gotten old. We get it. You don't think he's credible.  You think he's a lackey.  True or not, you've made your opinion known. You're not doing any one any favors by beating it into the ground, you're not "educating" anyone, and you're not doing a public service to the net by continuing on the seemingly personal crusade against him.  And yes, I know..you'll now insist it's not personal.  I'm telling you: Your posts tell a different story, whether it's the one you want told or not.

 Move the fuck on, already.....everybody gets it.

We can only play the cards we are dealt.   Fact of the matter is that there are not a lot of daily contributors around here these past few months.  The alternative is to have this place go hours if not days with any new posts.  Is that better?  Did we not just establish something is always better than nothing?

The situation will improve once they get back on the road, I should think.  We should at least have some Youtube clips and personal accounts from concerts to facilitate some conversation about actual band related matters.

Imagine if they came out and played 2 honest to god new songs.  How much talking are we really going to be doing about Jarmo's motivations then?  Such conversations are just placeholders until something more relevant comes along.

Please.  Jarmo responds with his opinions, so we respond with ours.  It's called spirited discussion.  It's fun.  

Without it, this and other forums would basically have everyone singing "It's a small world after all...".  

I know, it's so annoying that people won't let this go and feel the need to post about it...except when you do it, then it's cool?

Yeah, what's the alternative?  Close the boards until March 16th?

Hell, if they could have gotten that damn DVD out, I imagine we'd be talking about that.  But we can't just invent shit out of whole cloth.  We need some help on that front.

I'd prefer no content to this shit.  I bet most of the "regulars" would agree.

Because seeing updates in the threads, and then coming to find out it's more of the same bullshit is, quite frankly, frustrating.

So, in this case...yes..nothing would be better.


So...how about you go on "hiatus" with this discussion til then?  So at least there will be some actual content to drown out the crapfest we're getting now?

Deal?

To be clear: I don't care if you're attacking his positions/opinions directly, or saying you disagree.  That's different.

It's the ad hominem/objectivity/jarmo's a shill crap that's boring...not just because it's a rehash, but because, at the end of the day, it doesn't fucking matter one iota.  Everyone is capable of discerning someone else's credibility on their own.  They don't need help....it's not like I've ever seen jarmo edit one of his posts (beyond spelling/grammer) in order to change his meaning.  Every word is right there for every other poster to "consume" and form their own opinion.


Boring, useless, meaningless placeholders.  I'd rather the "place" be held with nothing......

Good talk.

...and Thank you.

The "opinions" are different.  "I don't think there is a new album because..." is a lot different than "jarmo, you're a shill so why should anyone listen to you".

This isn't "spirited discussion"....at least not the parts pertaining to jarmos relationship to the band and his "credibility".....about GnR.

It's "spirited discussion" about jarmo....who, quite frankly, is a pretty boring topic (no offense, jarmo) when you consider this board is about the band, and not him.

I don't care if you disagree.  By all means, say it and state your case.

But your case shouldn't be "My opinion is more valid because you're an ass"...which is essentially what is going on here.

Attack the post, not the poster.  That clearer?

I'm glad the band is going to be touring come March.  Honest.  Any activity is better than Axl farting around doing nothing.

But, hell, even Ron said "In my opinion, the fans would rather have us take the time to put out a new album than continue to tour."  But, you know, what would he know?  He's only been lead guitar for the past 8 years.

No, I'm actually not saying that at all.

I'm saying those people have heard the songs in question.  Therefore, they exist even though I personally have not heard them.

Ali

It is.  Sorry, I was just referring to my own responses to Jarmo, etc.  I'm not really speaking for anyone else.

Better than this...honestly.

What's fucking ironic here is that, in so many of these posts, the "accusations" against jarmo could be turned slightly askew and would pertain to the person posting, too....both in terms of credibility (with slightly different justification) and "open mindedness).  There's so many "Pot. Kettle. Black." moments here...it's the only amusing part of this thread (and it's ilk).

But again: All that's irrelevant to the topic at hand.

You all know there is an "Administrator Feedback" section, right?  Maybe we could make a nice "Why jarmo is a shill" thread there and we could keep all the discussion there?  Then those that feel they need catharsis, or need to "score points" in this endless fucking back and forth, could do it there.  Because, honestly...has there been ANYTHING new in THAT discussion posted in this thread?  It all reads as one of the longest, most boring, retread/rehash in HTGTH history (and that covers a lot of fucking ground, let me tell you).

Trust me: We fucking get it.  It's everywhere.  There is a good portion of the GnR fan community who, both here and in other places, think jarmo lacks credibility.

That being said....why beat the dead horse (no pun intended)?  Is there any doubt that the sentiment is already out there?  Does it REALLY need to get brought up in EVERY thread with a somewhat interesting topic? Two and three and four times?

C'mon, man.

But you see what I am getting at though, right?

Baz is his buddy.  Is there a real chance he going to come out and say he heard the stuff and it was underwhelming?

Marco was paid money to work on the songs.  How likely is he to come out and say that he worked on them but don't get your hopes up, people.

I know someone at Rolling Stone heard some stuff, but that was like 14 years ago now.  And most had no vocals.  But that's the only example I can think of as feedback from someone with no dog in the fight.

Well, tell me this. 

I and whoever are talking about something.  Just for example, this long rumored DVD release.  We are kicking around what the hell the hold up could be, including some speculation on our parts that Axl is being difficult about something or other.  Or that Team Brazil is just not getting it done.

When Jarmo then comes into the fold to scold us for our insolence, what are we supposed to do?  Just tell him he's probably right and we'll shut up now?  Flat out ignore him entirely?

   

Given the sentiment here at HTGTH, it's hard to argue he's wrong.  I mean...I think many, many fans (myself included) would choose "album" if given the choice between "album of new material" or "tour".  Not all, but an awful lot.

The question is: How feasible, in reality, is an album release?  And what factors may, or may not, get in the way.  Hey...wait...isn't that the very topic of this thread? :)

But I'll take the tour, and hope they hit CT or NYC.

I welcome any tour because I'm a bootleg guy.

You argue your case, if you have one.  Not attack the person who's arguing a counter point.

But, rather than do that, we hear the same old arguments about jarmo's credibility and that his opinion can't have any merit simply because of who he is/what his relationship to the band is.  

Rather than simply providing a well organized, coherent, informative counter point on the TOPIC (which, FYI, isn't jarmo).

If you can't do that...yeah...ignore him.  And let the reader determine his credibility/objectivity through his posts.

Hell..you could just c&p a link to the previous retread/rehash of the same old shit...at least that would be brief.

And to head off the obvious rebuttal: Yes, I know the same thing is done to "the haters".  I object just as strenuously.  But rather than get into a "he started it" discussion...which, quite honestly, I have enough with my 3 children....I'd just point out that, again, it doesn't fucking matter.  

Really.  It's like there's no room to play Devil's Advocate.  You're either 110% onboard, or you get scolded for your opinion, literally.  See the flip side?  I know the popular response is, "Well, if you don't like it then don't post here." That's just nuts, we shouldn't have to do that.  

The reality is, since the Del Interview in 2009 where Axl made the the "No idea, and don't care" comment regarding the next album, we've seen next to nothing to tell us he's made any changes in his opinion regarding the next album, and remains apathetic.  Add to that, Team Brazil who are, at best, an unproven management team are now at the helm.  They have also not given us one shred of evidence that they are capable of properly motivating Axl and negotiating an album release with the label.

I sincerely hope they can and will prove me wrong.  As it stands, other than sporadic touring, the future looks relatively grim.

But isn't the obvious starting point of such a conversation "what is that based on?"  Is that an unfair question, as you see it?

It reminds me of people lamenting that they can't attend a concert midweek because the band goes on at 11:30 and they have work the next day, only to be told "then don't fucking go, loser."  Always found that an odd answer.
  


You know, I had totally forgotten this until you mentioned it last week.  It does sort of bum me out.

I guess I sort of hoped that the general mindset for the next album would be that it can't possibly be as difficult as 'Chinese' was.  That the songs are largely done, and the process should not be such a grind.

Instead, it seems the other way, which sucks for we fans.

Nope.  It's not even all that solid of one, given the forum and format.  Hell, even in a court of law/arbitration, witness credibility only goes so far.  And this is decidedly not a court of law.

And if it's your only point (besides speaking to the relatively weakness of your point)....it's a point thats you've beaten to death.

Again....you're belaboring something that is widely known throughout the GnR community.  Yet you seem bound and determined to point it out every single time you can...sometimes 3 and 4 times in the same discussion thread. It's like a dog with a fucking bone, dude.  And, at this point, it adds zip to the conversation/discussion.

Let. It. Go.

Move. On.

We all get it: You don't find him credible.  Great. Wonderful. BORING. And not particularly helpful or compelling.

How about you point it out every 90 days or so...just in case anyone in the web-sphere forgets?

You know, pilferk, it's not easy to find someone more passive aggressively condescending than I am.  I take my hand off to you, sir. :beer:

Right.  You're all victims.  Poor, repressed objectors who are having their voices silenced by "the man".

Except...well...reading this thread I see no one being "silenced".

There is a difference between there being no room to play "Devil's Advocate" and people NOT being in lockstep with your opinion, and disagreeing.

You seem to see disagreement as being silenced.  You want the ability to "debate in a spirited manner"...but when confronted with similar spirited objections, you immediately cry injury.

I'm not telling anyone not to post their objections.  If you have an opinion on the topic, by all means, post.  If you feel the need to point out, for the hundred and twentieth time in the past 30 days that jarmo isn't objective because he has a relationship with the band....maybe dial it back?

I'm asking if we can move on from the continuous, boring, SAME SHIT in every thread when it has little to nothing to do with the topic.

If you can't...great...don't.  But it's fucking boring, man.

Don't you get tired of reading the exact same shit in every single thread?


I'd say and/or in that bolded part above.

We can only speculate, and I think the speculation, from both sides (is it Interscope or is it not) are pretty interesting.

As is the speculation in "the next album" thread.

It's just a pain in the ass to wade through all the bullshit about jarmo to get to the interesting bits.

Yep.  Regarding the followup album, Axl's public opinion changed fast and dramatically.  During the chats in December, 08 he openly discussed The General, Atlas Shrugged, Soul Monster and even said that if all goes well it will come out the same time next year, while sounding genuinely excited.  This is when, despite the lack of promotion, Chinese was still riding relatively high on the charts with the Better video famously due out "in a week or so." and the cover A & B issues were "getting sorted".

Then, everything changed.  None of that happened.  Chinese quickly fell down the charts & was deemed a "commercial failure".  The alternate covers never came, the Better video was scrapped, the tour with Van Halen slated for that summer fell through. A few months later in the Billboard interview Axl tears into the label for their lack of support, and claims that he no longer cares about the followup album.  

During the first shows in late 2009, he referred to that the past year as "the worst year of my life."  Is it any wonder we haven't gotten the next record yet?  Anyone who sincerely thinks he's hard at work trying to get "The General" onto our collective ipods has something to learn.

The lateness was always one of my pet peeves.  I always planned for it..but it was still annoying.

They seemed to have gotten a LOT better last tour, though.  Hopefully that's something they've worked out, now.  We'll see.

Biggest fallacy about this site, right here.

I didn't even come here for years because all I heard were horror stories about how repressive and dictatorial things are here.

Gotta say, I don't see it.  I haven't been so much as warned and have been allowed to speak as freely as I want.  

I've been warned, but they're from years ago.  Jarmo has lightened up in the past couple of years, as far as allowed discussion.  Good for him.  :beer:

Yeah, that's what folks said.  I agree, its a great development.

I used to think it was funny during the UYI tour.  I was even in the "what do you expect" crowd.  But, I was also a teenager with no responsibilities the next day.

Now that I'm a grown adult with a job, I think differently.  And doubly so when I think about friends with wives and kids and such.  And at this point, I see the problems.  I don't find it terribly realistic or at all fair to tell people they have to be able to take off work the next day to see a band, when no other band puts you through that.

But above all that, having gone to see them twice with the new line-up, I just can't get over the ugly mood it facilitates in the building.  Having the crowd boo in between songs played over the loudspeaker.  Chants of "Axl sucks" and "asshole".  People leaving before the show starts.  Why the hell foster that sort of mood in your crowd?

And he wonders why people throw shit at him sometimes.  This.  This is why.

Trust me when I tell you:

This isn't meant to be passive.

I've been reading for days, and I've had my fill, quite frankly. I'm sure that matters to you not a whit, but I've been around for 10 plus fucking years, now, and I think maybe I've earned a little rant.  I don't care that you don't like jarmo, or have some kind of bug up your ass (be it jealousy, some warped sense of "community service", or some sort of desire to build up "net cred" in the GnR community), or whatever else it is that's going on here.

But the constant riff on the same melody is really boring, and it's detracting from the little bit of ACTUAL content that's getting through.  It's like trying to find the one decent email in a wave of spam when I open my alt email account.  It's REALLY fucking tiresome, and I find myself starting to want to avoid the news section, entirely.  And while you're not the only person doing it...your post count is the one inflating the fastest.....

I have no beef with you being a pessimist (or, as I'm sure you'll respond, a realist) with GnR.  When you're making points, you make some good ones.  

But when you're taking the piss out of jarmo...honestly...you're just detracting from your case.  Because.....f I'm going to be completely, 100%, honest with you...it just makes you look like you're trying to fuck with jarmo, which calls YOUR credibility into account easily as much as it calls into account jarmo's.  It makes it look like you have an agenda...and it's not GnR related, really.

You'll deny it (maybe honestly, maybe not).  But that's what it looks like from the outside, looking in, with no real horse in the race.

"Warned"?  Sure.  Via karma points, probably. And not, necessarily, by jarmo (though maybe).

And I know there are topics jarmo OPENLY will tell you are "verboten"...but he's up front about it.

But in terms of an honest discussion on the topics that ARE allowed?  I've never seen a post censured/deleted for "topic" purposes.  Hate speech, attacking a poster (meaning direct name calling), etc? Sure...clear violations of the TOS you agree to when you join.

Just because you disagree...and especially with jarmo?  Never seen it.  Maybe it's happened....but I've never seen it.

It's a fair point.

The problem is this:  How likely is someone "outside" the process likely to hear the music, anyway?

I look at it like this:  If initially, the plan was to put the next album out a year after Chinese, they must have had a rough idea what the tracklist was going to look like.  Also, these songs would have had to be finished, if the plan was to tour in 2009, and then drop the next record in the fall. 

Point being, they must have had a lot of confidence in the songs slated for the next album, and they absolutely must have vocals already laid down.  We know that's the case for at least a handful of the songs (The General, Silkworms, Atlas, Soul Monster.)  This is why I remain optimistic regarding these tracks.

At least with the stadium parts of the UYI tour (the Faith No More/Metallica/GnR leg), there was a built in excuse...that set change over was ridiculous.

But for the rest...I remember waiting HOURS for a couple shows back then (though he was pretty close to on time in New Haven and a Hartford Show....both with Brian May's band as openers).


Agree.  I do it...but definitely see the objections.  It's not particularly thoughtful to keep the crowd waiting til late into the evening. I was glad to see the improvement noted last tour.  I missed the show in CT last time (we were on vacation, visiting the Mouse, in Orlando, I think...or maybe I was in Boston on business...can't remember), but the reviews said they were on time.  And the other reviews from last tour seemed to say that, more often than not, they were on stage at a reasonable hour.

Hopefully, they continue.  I mean...Axl's getting up there in years. Guy needs to get to the "early bird special" for AARP members! :)  C'mon...I'm kidding!


I saw that in '02.  But I haven't seen it since...probably partly because of where I've seen them (Hammerstein, Roseland, etc).

Also didn't seem to be as big a problem last tour...but I wasn't there "live" to say for sure.

I agree. 

Which is one of the reasons why I think the label issues might be a factor.  Probably not the whole story, but at least part of it.

I also think there's a couple other possible contributors:

Axl's perfectionism.
The band turnover since then. And the possible incorporation of "new ideas" into the existing tracks or the "expunging" of former members...and the wrangling that would surround it.
A desire to rework the tracks to be more "marketable" given the feedback/reviews of CD (obviously this would be at the behest of the label, since I think Axl cares about marketable as much as I care about polar bear shit).
A creative "post mortem" of CD by Axl (and possibly the new members of the band) which led him/then to think they could make the tracks better, creatively, prior to release.
A "falling out of love" with the material by Axl...who has moved on to his next tangent/big thing/creative inspiration.  To be honest, I'm not sure he's that fickle, but....maybe.

I'll allow, though I don't particularly buy into, for the "Axl isn't motivated to create" point, too...since I just don't know.  But he seems like a guy for who music is catharis...whether that music is "releasable" or not.  Unless he's replaced music with a good therapist, I have a hard time believing he's utterly, creatively, "dead in the water".  Whether any of what he's created is good enough to "release" (in his mind, the labels mind, or the fans minds)....that's the question, for me.  And there's no way to get an answer....

Nor I a beef with you.  You are a name on a screen, much as I am.  And we are talking about a rock band here.  Not exactly solving the world's problems, haha.

I think a lot of what you said with me and Jarmo is legit.  Truthfully, I think most of it comes from being something of a newbie around here.  I'm sort of still in the "is he kidding me with this" stage when I read some of his stuff.  But to a guy like you, around here 10 years, you are way past that stage of the game.  So I do get your points you made, most of them I found valid.  I suppose I am sort of playing catch-up.  And in a year's time, I might be making your same speech to some new guy acting as I have been towards him.

All fair.

As for the pessimist/realist thing, I would say that's it more that I really don't see reason for over the top optimism, and that's just based on Axl's track record.  And I think tone is important too.  I can see the benefit of new tour dates, but do feel there is ample room to not stop right there and declare us spoiled in some way.  I seriously feel that we have it pretty shitty as a fanbase, all things considered.  I can't really support being thrown a few breadcrumbs from time to time and being sold that I am eating like a king.  I follow other bands.  Their fans laugh at our situation, pretty much.

I think I struggle with his lack of desire to release anything because he worked so hard and so long on all this.

He had a comment somewhere along the line that they weren't doing all this work to have it never see the light of day.  I wonder what happened to that mindset.  If for no other reason to be able to tell the world I haven't actually been sitting on my ass for 15 years, because look what I did.

Pink Floyd.

The Eagles.

Led Zepplin.

Queen.

Hell, even Aerosmith, of late.

Yeah, yeah...I know...some of those band members are RIP and that's the reason for their situation. It's not apples to apples.....I'm not saying it is.

I'm not saying we don't have it "worse" than other bands.  Other very active bands.

But there are bands...popular, prolific bands who have produced as little, or less...and who are as active...or less..than GnR.

You ask, over and over, why I'm relatively content with what we have, and what's coming.  That's why.

Because it could be SOOO much worse.  It WAS SO much worse.  Yes...I see your "better than nothing" benchmark point.  And yes, it is a low bar.  But it's a bar they actually SET for a LONG time.

It's NOT stockholm syndrome, to be clear.  But there's so much other music to consume, and such a good back catalog of GnR to continue to consume....I don't need a hurry up on an album.  As long as they are still active, I'm "content"...because I have "hope" that I'll get something from them.  Either a tour, or, maybe, new music.  And I'm not implying those that have a differing opinion are "wrong".  You're entitled to feel differently.  But it's the way I feel the way I do...and I only speak for me (and maybe the Truffula trees).

And I recognize that, at a moments notice, that hope could evaporate, Axl could shut the whole thing down, and pull his Howard Hughes routine, disappearing into Latigo Canyon never to be heard from again.  He can take his ball and go home....and I couldn't begrudge him doing it, all things considered....and that would be it for GnR until he dies and the label opens up the vault.

So..there you go.  It's not optimism on my part, IMHO.  I'm anything but an eternal optimist.  And it's not a lockstep with GnR company opinion.

Can you imagine if he did die, someone cracked open the vault, and what was inside was pretty awesome?  That's like an 'Outer Limits' sort of ending.

I think us hearing these old working titles we've been talking about for years ultimately depends on how emotionally attached Axl is to them.  I would hope that's the case with at least a handful of them, to the point where it would not require the current lineup re-inventing the wheel in the studio whenever they'd get around to it.

I've never witnessed anyone who seemingly lives outside of time as much as Axl Rose, but who knows, he may know exactly what songs he wants on the next record, and exactly when he'll pull the trigger and put them out, and all we can do is wait.

I just hope he knows how much hearing this music means to so many of us.  Sometimes I wonder.

You have to try to get into his headspace.

Is music his profession?

Or is music just who he is....and he happens to make money at it.

If it's his profession.....you make a fair point.

But there are plenty of artists...whether you'd call them that or not...who create art for their own personal expression. Plenty of artists for who the commercial side was either an afterthought, a non factor, a neccessary evil, and/or an abject perversion. Instead, it's like catharsis for them. It's something they're compelled to do, almost..whether earning a living at it or not. And IF they make money at it, that's a bonus (or a curse, depending on the artist).  But it's not their primary intent/interest. It's something they deal with, not something they aim for.

I suspect Axl's quote was in deference to his band mates, who did all the work with him...and his desire to have something come of their efforts FOR THEM.

Maybe that's changed, or maybe there have been conversations/events that have convinced him otherwise.  I don't know.

You might not agree with the above...but at least be open to the fact it MIGHT be true.  If you look at a lot of Axl's actions over his career, and view through that lens.....you get an interesting picture painted (no pun intended) for you.  It might not be an accurate one, but it's interesting.

Honestly, there are days/times I think this is the most likely outcome to all this. Less than I did prior to CD's release..but it still "haunts" me...as depressing as it is.

We've seen it with Biggy, Tupac, Elvis, The Beatles (still)....many other artists.

Great post, and possibly puts what's going on into perspective.

If Axl does, in fact, still harbor feelings of resentment regarding how Chinese was handled by the label, he may very well feel that putting out another record isn't even worth the trouble if it's also going to be mishandled.  Could very well be.

We can only hope that certain steps have been taken to repair that business relationship and, if not, Axl figures out a way to release more music on his own terms.

People bag on me when I start throwing the "G" word around...but the fact is....many geniuses have similar habits.  Einstein, Hawking, Warhol, Da Vinci, Curie.....artists, scientists, etc...all had similar issues with time/distractions.

Whether that's why Axl does what he does...I don't know. But it fits a similar pattern.  And many of the folks mentioned above (with the exception of Warhol...though he was notoriously late when confronted with deadlines) were singularly possessive of their work, and had a hard time "letting it go", because it was never finished to their satisfaction.  Ultimately, they DID...but almost always through a long "birthing" process.


I think he knows.  I even think he "cares".

But I honestly believe Axl thinks he's "fighting the good fight" (and we can debate against who/why) for the fans.  That this is some sort of principled stand he thinks he's taking: for himself, for his bandmates, and for the fans.

Whether he actually IS....again, we can debate.  But in this case, what matters is that maybe he THINKS he is.

I think we know he wasn't happy with the release of CD...he's said as much.  Whether you or I would feel the same way, in the same situation, isn't relevant.....but we know he does.

You would think, prior to release, he'd look for assurances from the label (and yes, this is almost a direct jarmo quote from some of his previous posts) before releasing an album.

Now....from the labels side...these assurances are not contractually obligated, and they've spent a buttload of money financing the creative efforts over the past couple decades-ish, and are interested in recouping as much of that investment, and making as large a profit as possible off of it.

You're ripe for a game of chicken,  here. Contractually, he can't force their hand...and they can't force his (seemingly).  Axl taking what he thinks is a principled stand against the evil, souless, corrupt label (sorry....that's my exposition...can you tell I hate record labels?) vs the label who is interested in maximizing it's hefty investment, and making the MOST money possible out of this option.  Not just "some money"...as much as they can manage, while managing the risks/costs of release.  Axl's leverage is the material (and, to be clear...he could very well be holding it "hostage" to leverage either a new contract, or the band release from their existing contract upon album release).  The labels is their ability to exclusively release (or withhold from release) the material.

Whether that's the situation or not...we can only speculate.  And you can "sympathize" with whatever side here you want, even in this theoretical construct.

But, given what we know about Axl...and what is commonly known (and historically seen) of big music industry labels...this isn't a huge leap of supposition.  It's DEFINITELY supposition...but it's one I don't have a problem wrapping my head around.  Your mileage may vary.

As an aside:  I wonder who the fuck wrote up the contract, and signed it, from the label side.  Because...there sure doesn't seem to be any time related milestones built in...or, if there ever were, their penalties were so "weak" as to be non-existent.  If that's not the case...I can't see how we could be in the place we are now.  The label could sue for breach, and recoup their investment/advances...and just be done with it.

I think those comparisons are fair.  I cannot recall who, but someone "in the know" once said that Axl doesn't think like you or I.  If you would have asked him where he was during his famous disappearing act during the release of Chinese Democracy, he wouldn't have understood what you were asking and would have said something like "What do you mean where was I? I was right here!"  The logic wouldn't apply.

Could be that there simply is no option for him other than not putting out another album until he feels it is afforded whatever he needs for a release to be warranted. 

Axl going completely MIA from 2 months before the release to over a year after had to poison the well something fierce.

Who could blame the label for throwing that back in his face now?  And even if he tried to sell them he will do better this time, his track record is dogshit.

Of course, the real problem is that he would likely see even negotiating with them as a total defeat and, as usual, would rather just be mad.

It would seem there are bruised feelings on both sides of the fence, as neither seems to be chomping at the bit to work out another album release. 

We have no way of knowing what conversations are taking place behind the scenes, but if either Axl Rose or Jimmy Iovine wanted to make getting the next Guns record out a priority, I would assume that it would only be a matter of short time before it materialized.

It's a fair point.

The issue is: We don't know what predicated it.  Could be Axl, himself, pulling his Howard Hughes act.  Or it could be that he was working with the label, saw the writing on the wall, and went full introvert as a form of protest.

I just don't know...and both look like likely options, because, historically, both have happened before (look at what happened post GnR LIVE and GnR Greatest Hits....full stop for a decent period of time).  I'm open to both possibilities.

I think the only issue with the above is the "or" in relation to Axl/Iovine.

I think that HAS to be an "and", to some extent.  And the issue is how to get that "and", because you know it's conditional.  Iovine is never going to get to a point where a new GnR album is going to be released by "giving in" to Axl 100%.  And the reverse is true, too.  Thus my game of chicken reference.

The only way it's OR is if that priority level is SO high it means giving the other person EVERYTHING they want. Not "a" priority...it would have to be "the" priority. While it's true....I don't think we can realistically expect that to ever happen....

I think Axl seriously misjudges his leverage here.

The Best Buy deal helped clear up their books on this whole misadventure.  They are looking at it like they escaped this one.  I'm not sure Axl's threat that he's going to run off and pout and not cooperate any further generated more than a shoulder shrug to the big muckety mucks at the label.

You are making a completely different point than I am.  I was never talking about quality of the material.

There was a point made that the art only exists if we've heard or seen it.

I think that is a deeply flawed argument given that there are people who've heard the material, other than me or the rest of the people posting on message boards.

So, my point was that if people have heard the music, even though I am not one of them, the music must exist.

The issue of quality is completely separate, and is obviously subjective.

Ali

That's my fear as well.  That is, that Axl's pouting and refusing to hand over the next record, and the powers that be at the label could probably care less.  :-\

True.

I absolutely think songs exist in various stages of completion.  I don't necessarily believe they are finished products ready to press, however.

In truth, I have my biggest doubt about vocals.  Even back in the day, it was like pulling teeth to get Axl to record vocals.  And the finished versions of 'I.R.S.' and 'Catcher' we got in 2008 were still the vocals he laid down in, what, 1999?

Maybe so....I mean, we have no album, so that seems likely. At least on the eyes of the label.

But, again, if it's the only card he sees as being able to play...and he thinks he's taking a principled stand...how good the leverage is doesn't matter, depending on how committed he is. If he'd rather release nothing than not have assurances...it's enough for him.

Sometimes who wins the game of chicken isn't about who has the best/biggest car. It's about who has the biggest balls, and is willing to risk the most.

I think we've seen the size of axl's balls, and his overall stubbornness.

And I think we can all guess how committed a multimillion dollar label would be, given the relative importance of this album, at this point.

So, until something changes...

And now you know why I think the vault scenario isn't so far fetched.

IMHO, playing new material during a huge tour, with good press and reviews, COULD help get the label to move. Maybe. Possibly.

Not likely, mind you. But....

Edit: caveat being all ths theory crafting is remotely close to accurate.

They actually went on late that night.  Around midnight.  Show ended around 3 I think.  The crowd was surprisingly calm during the wait.  Baz went on an hour later than he was scheduled to go on.  I forget the exact time frame, but we waited for quite a bit.  Luckily it was a Saturday, so that may have played a large part in the crowd's understanding.  They were awesome though, and well worth the wait.  But I was drained by the end of the show, standing around for 5+ hours and rocking out will do that to you.  The late starts never bothered me.  I'm a night owl as it is, but I understand how many get turned off by it.

Pilferk, you make a lot of sense. I do think that going on stage late isn't good for his fan base. Most of Axl's fans are probably in their late 20 to 30s and even 40s. In couple of years, I'll be hitting the big 40 and I'm at the point of my life where I have responsibilities. When you are a teen and early 20s, you can stay late at a concert. 30s and hitting close to 40, you really can't.

At the Comcast?  I stand corrected. As I said, I wasn't at that one...the only GnR show in CT they've ever done I haven't been physically present for.

I saw a press review that said they went on stage "relatively" on time..but I just looked around and found 2 more that said they were late.

So much for "progress".  :(

well they have been going on earlier since then, but that wasn't the case that night. I went with a group of 10 people and didn't hear one complaint. They were fully prepared. It was a late arriving crowd as it was. They knew the drill. I got in there on the early to secure a spot on the floor, but it was well worth it to be 10' from the stage.

Overall, I think they've made steps in the right direction to offer some goodwill to the paying customers, which I would think would be a positive reflection in the label's eyes. Going on earlier, playing 3 hour shows, no real major incidents, generally positive reviews in the media and from concert goers. So that has to do them some good. But who knows what's going on behind the scenes.

Not they least bit likely, I'd say. 

Because he won't do any real promotion.  Tough to get decent press (or them to even a give a shit) without decent promotion by the artist.  Competent and effective promotion is not a random Facebook post and an update to your already in your corner fan club.

With all due respect to the other guys, serious promotion requires Axl's participation.  You think that's forthcoming?  I don't.

I think it's possible, but I'm not clairvoyant, so I don't KNOW one way or the other.  We'll see coming up quick, though.  But really, that's the only way to increase the value of the leverage, at this point.  Whether they take advantage..... ???

My one counterpoint is this:  The early leaks blew up HUGE without much in the way of promotion from Axl...in fact, the exact opposite.  If you get high quality bootlegs of "new songs" in circulation.....there is at least a chance (however slim) of lightning striking twice.  And, if that's what the band/management/Axl are thinking....I'd expect you'll see some more soundboard "pay per listen streams"  at some of the upcoming shows.

To be clear, I'm not saying it would be a great direction, or even that it's one they might seriously consider.  I have my doubts.  Only pointing out the possibility.....but it would be a relatively legal (or at least grey area legal) way to "end around" the label and get new music into fans hands...and try to get some grass roots pressure on the label.

Notice there are lots of "trys" in there.....I'm still not sure how effective a tactic it would be.  It just seems, to me, to be one of the few bullets available.

That's a good point.  Those leaks were getting radio airplay in some places.

I had friends asking me for copies.

IRS made the friggin' charts when it first leaked in early 2006.  I still think that should've been the first single out of the gates.

Axl's reluctance to doing promotion has to be seen in context with the very combative relationship he has with mainstream media.  Rather than an avenue for promoting his work, he feels mainstream media uses his name to sell themselves, while often taking cheap shots at him... which then could result in a negative commercial impact.  Can't say I blame him because there's a track record for that with him. 

The media loves to find the "next big thing" they can hype. Only to bring them down as soon as possible. Repeat cycle.

Even though they might be writing sensationalist garbage about you, you (the artist) are supposed to play along and be nice. Grant them interviews, give them tickets to review shows, let them take photos, take part in their events and so on.




/jarmo

And...well...he has some reason to feel that way.  Not that, maybe, he hasn't given the press good fodder, or he hasn't antagonized them, too...but it's another chicken/egg argument.  From his POV...I sorta get it.  We know Axl's not a big fan of associating with people he thinks have treated (or might treat him) badly.

Also, he DID do some press for the Vegas Residency....

I'm friends with the monster that's under my bed,
Get along with the voices inside of my head
You're trying to save me...
Stop holding your breath....

Mr. Mathers really nails the whole press/fame pressure for an artist in that song.

Axl, Eminem, Halle berry whoever it is....

they complain about the intrusiveness of the media, paparazzi, journalists whoever...

but they still want the public to buy up their stuff.... so really...

Yeah, I mean...that's the point of the song.  The struggle between wanting to be creative, and share that creation, and having to deal with all the "other stuff" that goes along with it.

I get it...nobody on the outside is going to feel "bad" for the uber rich artist who gets paid to make music.  And that's part of his point, too.  He knows he's not going to get any sympathy.

But, to HIM, all that stuff is stuff he has to deal with, not stuff he likes.  He'd rather be known for his creative product, but not be a CELEBRITY.  The problem is...it's part and parcel...and he knows it, but still struggles with it.

I gotta tell you...I'm NOT a huge rap fan.  Definitely not a huge Eminem fan. But that song might be one of the best creative products I've heard from an artist in awhile.

It certainly is catchy too

I agree with all you said

Not even that nobody is going to feel bad for a rich famous guy... its just if ur in that spot.. you gotta take the good with the bad...

^ If you recall how GNR was portrayed in the media in the early 90s, there was very little good that came with the bad.  All major rock media (MTV, Rolling Stone, SPIN) were building up Nirvana, Pearl Jam, etc., while holding up the antithesis GNR as the uncool, lame, out of fashion relic of 80s rock.

I took a lot of shit for being a diehard back then.   :hihi:  Anyway, I'm sure that period has completely changed Axl's perception of the media; with him, this goes well beyond dealing with some loss of privacy in exchange for better commercial visibility. 

I love that song.

And I agree about it being the first single.  It wasn't all that big a departure from the older stuff, and actually has a chorus.

Bit of a self fulfilling prophecy though.  Axl seems to relish that antagonistic relationship, almost.  It fits his whole victim mentality.

What has he really done to mend any fences?  He calls up Rolling Stone and offers them an interview, he's on the cover the next week.  Is that in dispute?  They'd love to ave him.  And the feature is hardly going to be a hit piece.  Provided he does it properly.

But would he?  Obviously not, because he's not even making the call.  But even if he did, he would likely set parameters about things he can and cannot be asked about.  Then he no shows the interview.  Reschedules, and then shows up 3 hours late.  Then, after all that, laments how he just can't get a break from these people.

Life is what you make it.  Axl Rose makes his very, very hard on himself. 

And we do think he's crazy, crazy...and yes, that's fair.

My concern is that this is also his mindset towards releasing new music and dealing with the label.  Like because of past "wrongs" these things are over before they began, and are never even given the chance to work...or not work. 

At some point you need to let go and come what may.  Otherwise, all we're going to see from Axl going forward is an aging man who tours sporadically and not much else.

Agreed.

As for letting go, that's seems pretty much impossible.  This is a guy that talks about Slash in such raw emotional terms, you would think that shit happened yesterday afternoon, not 20 god damn years ago.

Bingo.  I think this inability to let go of past grudges (real or perceived) is the main thing blocking the next release.  That, and Jarmo's blind faith (I kid, I kid).  But seriously, I think, even if Interscope came to him and said "let's let bygones be bygones and we're here to help you release the next album" that would be interpreted by him as disingenuous, that there's some hidden agenda and some angle by the record company to screw him over. 

It was mentioned earlier that Axl is a genius...personally I'm not ready to buy that.  Sure, he has some reclusive/odd, Howard Hughes-esque type qualities, and his quest for perfection on CD is well-documented, but I'm not ready to put him at the Einstein table yet.  Sadly, I think he's a tortured soul, and, despite having luxuries that you and I will never see, bitter and angry.  I think he wants the next album to suceed, but probably knows that it will be about as well received (if not less) than CD, which he's still pissed off about and blames the record company for poorly promoting/not properly supporting that release.  This just furthers the the anger and bitterness, and continues the cycle of distrust. 

So labeling a person based on whatever feelings he may have towards events in his life as bitter is ok... But if somebody dares to say the same about people whose only emotional investment in the events is that it's a page in the history of their favorite band, it's not ok.

At the end of the day, nobody here asked Axl what his feelings towards the record company is.



/jarmo

I am with you Jarmo on this one ... I may not like it, but Axl the right to feel any way he wants towards whoever.

to Dx's point... I do think its true that his feelings of anger toward how the last record was handled all around do hinder future success

You honestly think that if Universal Music said "Ok, we won't make the same mistakes again. Here's our marketing plan, what do you think?", he would just ignore it because of the events of 2008?




/jarmo

I think it's possible, yeah.  I think the distrust runs deep, and goes back years (decades, even).  I think he'll always harbor some healthy skepticism. 

And, I'm not attacking him for feeling this way (if in fact he does).  To a large extent, the record label (and the media) has unfairly portrayed him over the years...they certainly haven't gone out of their way to embrace the new lineup.  So yes, if all of a sudden Universal does an about face and says "hey Axl, we really like this DJ fellow, and Bubble's fretless double-guitar is awesome, let us show you how we can help you"  I think that is met with some dose of hesitancy, kind of like "we're from the government and here to help" is.

I think...and this is just my humble opinion...Axl would say something like "Great, lets put it in writing".  And take it from there.

I think Axl would respond with a healthy, and perhaps warrented, dose of skepticism...but I don't think it would be parallyzing.  I just think he would be slow, cautious, and make sure that he was covering his ass through the process so there was no chance for him to get screwed over, in his POV, again.

That's true...but I think most people here have been careful to label this conversation as what it is: Theorycrafting.  Much of it based on Axl's responses to similar or related questions.

It very well might not be a fair depiction...I'm not sure if he's bitter or not....or even if "bitter" is the best description, here.  Just as I'm not sure there really IS contention between Axl and the label.

But Axl has certainly been known to hold onto a slight, real or perceived.  And he certainly has said and implied he's not happy with the way the label handled CD's release.

The rest is 100% opinion and some leaps of logic.

Edit: And, as an aside, if I were ever granted the opportunity to ask Axl "20 questions", uncensored, this would be within the first five. :)

Actually, that would be utterly fantastic if we were given a chance to ask him his current feelings toward the label & the status of the next album.  That said, it seems completely outside the realm of actual possibilities that Axl would care enough to come here discuss either points with the fans.

Honestly?  Yeah.

This is a guy that thinks Slash needs to get down on his knees to beg forgiveness as an opening move.  I can't see him giving the label any less hard a time.

Absolutely right.  I agree with every word.

I have said similar things.  When the "if you could ask Axl anything" topic comes up, my opener is always the same : "Why do you make things so hard on yourself?"

It would likely just be more of the same long rambling answers he gave us in the chats.

I thought the funniest thing about the chats were you either got a one liner or meandering paragraph.  No in between.

In short, one is a former band mate who spent years aiding in making sure the public image of Axl was kept on the negative side, the other is a company whose only interest is to make a profit.
There's a difference.




/jarmo

Jarmo, just out of curiosity, do think if you sent management an email with several approved questions for Axl from the fans, one of them inquiring about his thoughts on the label & feelings about the next album, that you would get so much as an answer?

Would that just be beyond taboo?  ???

If you feel they would be even the least bit receptive to that, it would be absolutely awesome. You're probably quite literally the only person who could make that happen.

But the overall point I was making is that Axl lets nothing go.  Remember Izzy's story about him being on the phone with him and being able to hear Axl flipping through notes he made about perceived slights from years ago?

As he sees it, he has nothing to apologize for.  He and Slash should just get together and say that shit went down on both sides, but it was 20 fucking years ago and who cares now.  Doesn't mean they have to reform the band, but why be made for the rest of your life?  Its childish.

In terms of he and the label, same thing.  I think the most logical move, for both sides, is to admit mistakes were made.  Again, by both sides.  But that's in the past and then we move on.  Let's do it right this time.  And they both shake on it.

Agree or disagree?

Now, is Axl doing that?  Not on your life.  He sees his 14 month storm off to pout as righteous.  Admitting that was wrong is "giving in" and "letting them win."

Axl rarely sees the big picture.  He can think the label are the biggest assholes walking the Earth.  But not attempting to work past their problems means nothing gets released.  Everyone loses in that scenario.  Well, everyone except Axl and a few of his sycophantic fans that have convinced themselves that he's taking some Ghandi like stance and good for him. 

Yeah, would be cool to read.

But, could be counter productive too.  I can't imagine he has anything nice to say about them.  Could only poison the well further.

Just curious Sofine, do you go around talking about your personal finances and your business relationships...of course he won't comment on anything more, ever again, than he did in 2008. Get the fuck over it. It's his PERSONAL business and he can run it however the fuck he wants. He can splash the pot in his own club!

At the very least, it would let us know where we stand with the next album.  Better that than spending another few years wondering if secretly, behind the scenes, Axl is doing all he can to get it out.  Even if he says "Don't know & don't care" again, we'll at least be able to check our expectations going forward.

Yet he performed with Izzy several times since.
Compare that to how he felt about Izzy's departure in 1991. Amazing isn't it?



This makes no sense to me.
If you make "mistakes" because of your employer, are you gonna be all apologetic about it? Even if you know it was their fault?

The fact that you think you know how he feels about these things based on nothing more than a hunch is somewhat astounding. You can find quotes from 2009 or whatever and use them as reasons, but it doesn't change the fact that we don't know how things are in 2014. Or how he would react to working with the record company in the future just because he didn't agree with them in 2008.

Remember, this is the same record company who released Greatest Hits against his wishes. He hasn't exactly brought that up since then, amazing for a guy who never lets anything go isn't it?



/jarmo

Hahahahaha

Its a faaahhhking joke, anyway.

True.  It would certainly solve a lot of this theorizing on him having some masterplan.

What's gained from that?  Is there some great outcome with that approach I am missing?

Be mad forever?  That's a solution to anything in life?

Most logical people would be pissed at the record company for not doing things a certain way, then take the reins and do what they can to salvage their own project they worked on for 10 years.  Him?  He runs off and sulks and let's the project ultimately make little to no impact because he gave it no chance at success.  Good plan.  He sure showed them.  



Well, he doesn't talk to us.  Doesn't leave us much choice but to speculate based on the limited breadcrumbs of info he doles out, as well as what we know about how he's conducted himself over the past 25 plus years.

Scenario #1 : He thinks he was done wrong and would cut off his nose to spite his face because no one tells him what to do.

Scenario #2 : He just wants to move past whatever problems there are and get things back on track.  Nothing is gained holding grudges.

What's the more likely scenario, based on what we know of the man?

You tell me. Aren't you still "upset" about how the album was promoted?  ;)
No, the point is, you want him to admit that he made mistakes. I'm saying, it's not exactly "fair" to demand somebody to apologize for something that might be a direct result of somebody else's mistake!





Do you realize that we're talking about a human here?
Just asking. Since it's not always easy to keep fighting the good fight after the cows have gone home. You think the players of a team who will finish last no matter how many goals they score in the last game are as excited about the game as they were when the season began months ago?




When he does talk, it's labeled as lies and no good reason to act the way he did.
Like you are doing right now. Not lies, but the other part.... He shouldn't feel this, he shouldn't do that.



He's already done this several times.
Not only with his label (Greatest Hits -> Chinese Democracy), but also going back and playing shows in cities where they had issues in the past.

That being said, I'm not saying he will or he won't, because I have no idea what the current status is. I'm also not saying "this is what he'll definitely do because he sang that in that song and said so in that interview in 2009, so I know what he thinks about this subject"....




/jarmo

Exactly.  We get chided a lot for "theorizing" based on past events, how about those in the loop doing their part to gain a little clarity for the fanbase?

See but thats the thing that's so fucking troubling about this operation.  Be it Jarmo, Fernado, Ron, 4tus, whoever...At the end of the day, no one has the stones to very simply say to Axl "Dude, you talked to them about a bunch of upcoming tracks and told them the next album might come out a year after Chinese.  It's been over five years now and we haven't given them a single update.  What gives?"

A very legitimate question, but the fucking thunder would come down so fast and nobody on the team wants to be in the room when that happens.

Upset?  Not at all.  I think his promotional efforts were a smashing success. 

And I'm not just talking out of my ass here, because I have that huge impact it made on the populance to back me up.  Plus, how hardly anyone ever asks if the band is still even together, because they heard Slash left...or something. 

People are in the know, no doubt.


Here's what's a mistake.  Temper tantrums are a mistake.

10 years he worked on this thing.  If you think the label dropped the ball, you pick it the hell up. 

"Look, we'd love to have you in the band.  Here's what I'm thinking.  We'll work on it for a few years, then sit and do nothing for a few more.  Eventually, we will start some overdubs and mixing and whatnot.  I'm thinking, um...10 years.  Give or take.

Then, 2 months before it drops...and here's the beauty...I'm nowhere to be found.  I'm AWOL.  The album is released under the cover of night.  Next to no one but the already long suffering fans that have stuck with me for 20 years will even know about it.  So, what's up?  You in?  Could be great, right?"

Think that was the pitch? 

Certainly how it appears.

Instead of focusing so much on adding the sarcasm, how about you focus more on what I said instead...

What do you call a person who will label somebody as bitter for not getting "over things" yet they are acting that way themselves?

You keep repeating the same things over and over again without any evidence of you actually taking in anything I said.

 :)


/jarmo

LMAO  :rofl:

And here we are in 2014, more than 5 years later.  Already half the time it took to record and release the most notorious album of all time, still no closer to the next release.  And this, after promises from various members that it would not take as long to put out.  Nice.

Please tell me you don't honestly think I am basing that comment on this one single instance.

I've been a fan of this man since 1988.  He's stubborn, petty, childish, and extremely angry as a person. 

Here is why he needs to get "over things".  Actually, let me stop there.  If he has no interest in being a relevant or even serious band, no, he doesn't need to do shit.  He can keep taking a rotating touring band around the world playing the same 25 songs every 2 years.  If that's all he's looking for, he's already got it.

But if he actually intends to continue as a viable artist, throwing darts at a poster of the label's logo ain't getting it done.

A rational, adult person...that's actually interested in continuing as an artist...sits down with the label and has a conversation.  Here's what he didn't like.  Here's where he thought he got screwed.  Inevitably, they will come back with complaints of their own.

So you hash it out.  You move on and set up future plans.

Or you remain content with what you have now, which ain't much.  But at least it won't take any extra effort.

How many hours of personal time did you spend with Axl to come to this conclusion?

It's difficult to take the rest of your post seriously after you made that remark. So let's just focus on your opening salvo here and answer my question. Thanks.




/jarmo

It's ridiculous when people comment on someone's personality, as though it's fact, when they have spent absolutely no time talking with the person.



 :peace:

If it really is the case that the label are in a standoff with Axl/GN'R in regards to how to release this thing, then why don't they try to force his hand. For instance we all know how Axl hated Greatest Hits being released so why don't they try to push through another compilation?. Like a Greatest Hits Vol. 2, to kind of say to Axl, if you don't negotiate we'll release "something"...

There was conversation, don't you remember this legend 3 hour meeting ? :D

We spent a week together down in Cabo.  We had neighboring villas.  We had plans for dinner, but he no showed.

Give me a fucking break, Jarmo.  That is the lamest argument going.  I need to bunk with him for a summer to make an assessment?  Never mind 25 years of comments, actions, and decisions he's made.  Please.

Put it this way.  If he's not any of those things I said, he's engaged is the longest bit of performance art known to mankind.  He must be having quite a laugh.

If that is your barometer in life, then why ever talk about anything, ever, other than your own immediate family? 

Can't talk politics.  Don't know the President.  Can't talk sports.  Don't know the quarterback.  Can't talk about any celeb in any field.  Never had dinner with them.

Does that make sense?

Honestly, I don't think the label spends any serious amount of time talking about Guns N' Roses?

But if they did, yeah, I think your suggestion would be the way to go.  I just have to wonder if they basically consider themselves done with him.  He's most certainly not giving them much reason to keep tabs, unfortunately.

So, in your logic, you can't have an opinion on someone's personality unless you've spent ___ hours with them and know them personally?  Well, that clearly puts Axl beyond all reproach.  Sorry, but that doesn't apply to public figures.  I've spent 0 hours with Lindsay Lohan, but can pretty much make an informed observation (what you call fact) that she's a train wreck. 

Axl's history of agression, hostility towards the record company, past band members, domestic issues, etc., are well-documented, but unless we're BFF's we can't comment on them?  That's absurd, and a very convenient way to dismiss the disucssion.  You also deflected answering the rest of the post, which I thought brought up some good points.

Just because you've been a fan for decades, read every interview, analyzed every lyric, every note, doesn't mean you know the person. What you might have an idea about is the public person.
If you were a fan of KISS in the 70s, would you have expected them to wear those clothes and make up in private? Hey, they always looked like that when you saw them!


Some people need to take a step back and realize just because you listen to somebody's songs don't mean you know that person.




/jarmo

Yeah, pretty weak they way they both used the opening line to disregard the rest of my post.  Even weaker as Jarmo not 2 posts prior was chiding me for not addressing his points.

But the gist of your post is obviously correct.  And the Lohan example is a good one.  Like Axl, I'm sure Lindsay has personal friends that play the "you don't know her like I do" card.  But as you correctly point out, she's given us quite a bit to go on.  Any public figure does.  How you carry yourself and act is going to affect how you are viewed.  And if you spend 25 years with a hair trigger temper and a history of not playing well with others...guess what?  That's who you are in the public's eyes.

Fine. 

But that was a throwaway intro line that you hopped on to avoid addressing the rest of my post.  So let's concede I don't know Axl.  Fine. 

What about the rest of the stuff I said?  I addressed your points in detail after you asked me to make the effort.  Only fair I'm extended the same courtesy, no?

So here we go :


Thoughts?

I'm guessing your source for the info on what he didn't do with the label is from the same source as your analysis of him as a person?
Your own mind.


As I said. And you seemed to have missed. He had issues with the label before Chinese. He managed to get over those and allow them to release the album. He's had issues playing shows in certain places, he overcame those and played successful shows in those cities. Just some examples of him moving on.

And you now say he should talk to the record company blah blah blah, but at the end of the day you're assuming he hasn't or wouldn't. Because that fits your idea of how he is. Because you've been a fan for a long time.




/jarmo

Looks like you need to go see The Wizard, Jarmo.

I'll concede we might not "know him".

But he has shown us "enough" to base some theorycrafting on.  You can argue the foundation isn't rock solid...and I'd agree with you.  But we go by what we're shown...and there's no evidence available to us to contradict it.  It's not just his public persona, either...it's interviews with other, ancillary folks involved, it's interviews with HIM, it's reports of his behavior in "non-public", behind the scenes, situations.

I'd not go quite as far in the description as D-GenerationX does.  I'd go with "he can be, at times" or "he seems to be" rather than labeling his behavior in it's entirety or categorically.  And my descriptor would probably be more like "He seems to be someone who can hold a grudge, long term".

But the fact is, it's the face we are often shown.  If you think that portrait unfair....so be it.  But you can certainly understand what the basis for the theorycrafting is, right?

I think more because there's been no reported or discernable progress toward releasing new music.....and the theorycrafting that his disharmony with the label might be, at least in part, to blame.

If he's talked to the label, and worked out the differences.....then it's all on Axl and the band.

If he's talked to the label, and been unable to work out the differences...well, some of that is what we're talking about here. 

Again, we don't know.  Because nobody has said much, one way or the other.  It's all supposition (and, I think, labeled as such through most of the thread).

All fair.  Well said.

I guess, basically, I just don't find the "geez, where you getting that opinion" from all that realistic.  Not just with Axl, with anyone.  As both you and Ginger King have alluded, people base their opinions on what they are shown.  If someone wanted to tell me Charlie Sheen seems a little out there, I can't really see a plausible counterargument that you don't see what that's based on.  Having eyes, that's what that's based on.  Being minimally observant, that's what that's based on.

I'll concede Axl is not an angry madman 24/7/365 if that makes some sort of difference in all this.  But again, I took the focus on that one specific line as rather transparent way to avoid addressing the other points made.

Spot on.

As I said in a post earlier in  the week, we are just theorizing as we pass the time.  No one is testifying under oath about any of this.

One other thing:

I'd also say that, of late, we've seen some progress, for sure. toward Axl "getting better" at some of the things we've seen from him in the past that I/we view as his "eccentricities".

Not being late on stage.  Reports of mending OTHER fences (both personal and professional...which you allude to above).  Trying to "make things right" more often (again, the shows you allude to).  All that looks like progress.

But...as we alluded to on a different subject earlier in the thread...you see stuff, but you're still a little leary to trust the change is 100% done. But all those points are great counterpoints.....and hopefully it's a sign of good things to come!

Very much agreed.  And I hope this latest batch of touring goes off without a hitch and leads to some momentum for the band.

I just remember the opening night of the 2006 Euro tour when they didn't take the stage until like midnight.  I sat there refreshing MYGNR praying to god he eventually got out there without a riot starting up and the whole tour being put at risk.

Fortunately, we don't hear as many stories like that on these last few legs.  Absolutely progress.

But what if BOTH sides agreed not to discuss any details involved in their negotiating the next release?  What if BOTH sides agreed not to 'point fingers' out of respect for each other & the release process?

Let's be honest here, I don't think respect even comes into it regarding Axl's involvement with the label. After the amount of times Axl has pointed the finger in the labels direction for not funding, or offering support for Chinese Democacy. And even way before that, the label having digs at Axl and GN'R using various methods trying to push for a release for Chinese Democracy over years and years. I think both parties have gone past respect, and the term 'business' maybe better suited to the (GN'R - Record Label) relationship in the present. Back in the Illusion days, there may have been an element respect there (and I actually think there was alot), but I really don't think any exists between them at all today. :-\

Would be cool if they released unreleased stuff and demo's.