Here Today... Gone To Hell!

http://www.uproxx.com/music/2014/01/blogger-leaked-chinese-democracy-wrote-8000-words-explaining/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+uproxx%2Ffeatures+%28Uproxx%29&utm_content=FaceBook

A long article, but really interesting. Thanks for posting.

I wish people who steal could be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. 

That dick practically brags his way through that 'story' - he is just another TMZ wannabe...he should have done hard time, just another internet punk who thinks he has a right to 'share' other peoples work...work he was quite obviously aware was stolen.

Nice to see a Jarmo mention though...policing beyond the borders of HTGTH!!  Good looking out Dude!

I found it amusing how the feds came after him at his house like he was a fugitive mob boss

It was an interesting read.

Question is, does Axl take this as a learning experience?

After reading this (yes, I read it all), I've come to the conclusion that Mr Skwerl is a sensationalist. Just the way he describes things makes me feel like the guys an arshole, dunno just the feeling I get.  :hihi:

Interesting read though, very surprising that he went through all of that for the sake of a few mp3's. I think he is damn lucky that he streamed the songs rather than to offer downloads, as I think he would of been done over like the thief he is...

I read it. I agree that guy should not be given 15 minutes of fame. After all the record company is responsible for not protecting music. But I also find it pathetic that the F.B.I. is wasting time and money in some idiot leaking music when they should be concerned about terrorists and organized crime

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Chinese Democracy starts NOW!!!!  :)

For what?  For who to trust GN'R's copyrighted creative work with?

I certainly hope so.  But, if the source was his record label head, even inadvertently, I'm not sure what recourse there is so long as GN'R is under contract with UMG.

Ali

Leaks happen due to sticky fingers.  We all know this.

And the longer you mix, remix, arrange, re-arrange, record, re-record...its all the more chance you give someone with sticky fingers a chance to burn you.  When the liner notes on your album show a list like 300 people long, you are pretty much opening yourself up to greater exposure.

We all heard the leaks and we all heard the finished products.  Was it worth further entire years of delays?  Not really.  But the long drawn out process brings too many people into the fold.

So if there is something to learn, its get the fuck on with it already.  If some of the claims about what is in Axl's magic vault is to be believed, these are largely ready to go.  I don't happen to believe those claims, but let's assume for a second they are true.

Just get them out there.  They are done.  Done as they are going to be and done as they need to be.  A songs does not need a further 2 year delay so Bumble can cut and paste a few riffs over top of an already finished song.

You don't know what's going on behind the scenes blah blah fucking blah.  Axl could very well be trying ::insert desperate & naive claim about how the evil label is holding up future releases here::

In all seriousness, you're 100% correct.  The songs that leaked were recorded before Bucket left in early 2004.  Assuming the last round of recording was done while Bucket was still around in 2003, that's still 4-5 years that they were collecting dust or being tweaked before someone finally hit the "leak" button.

Now we're back at square 1, with a bunch of songs that are, again, collecting dust in Axl's proverbial vault.  It's just a matter of time before the same shit happens again.  And those involved will cry foul as if it wasn't completely preventable.

Yes, okay let's assume Axl has his magic vault full of songs. Maybe they will be released maybe they won't. I honestly feel horrible for artists who don't own there songs. Yes i know some big names got the rights back to there songs but most signed there rights away when they were first signed. Maybe it's exciting in the beginning and maybe it isn't.  We all know Axl's disdain for the music industry. Does anyone else think part of the reason not much has been released is because he doesn't want to deal with record companies anymore? I for one would grow tired of releasing songs i write but don't actually own.

And I've tried bringing this up before because I think it has merit.  Excessive delays and lack of action can lead to delays.

Right now, I am willing to bet there are songs in people's hands already.  Maybe they are involved in the album making process, maybe they are just a friend of a guy that was and swiped it.

The longer Axl makes everyone wait, the greater the chance one of these guys will just say "fuck it" and leak it, because it might not come out any other way.

Is this "right"?  Of course not.  But its human nature.  Why not get out in front of it?

Yes, the long drawn out process brings more people in the fold.  

But, if the CD with the leaks really came from off of Jimmy Iovine's desk, I'm not sure why you think the length of time had any effect on the probability of a leak.  This wasn't some person brought on to work on the project.  This is the head of GN'R's record company.  The record could've been worked on for two years with someone walking into Jimmy Iovine's office while he was in the process of listening to the record and made or taken a copy, which subsequently leaked.

Given the alleged source of the leak, and the fact that there is no way around dealing with the head of the label so long as you're contractually tied to said label, I think the time issue is irrelevant in this case.

Ali

Precisely.  No one's justifying leaks here.  Only saying that it's utterly naive to think that, with all the people involved, sitting on "finished" tracks for nearly a decade won't lead to eventual leaks.  We saw that with "Going Down" this summer, and as surely as God made little green apples, we'll see it again so long as this non-activity persists.

But that article only talk about the Antiquiet version of the leaks.

We got 3 leaks right before the Hammerstein shows in early spring of 2006.  I had those leaks on my iPod for over 2 full years before I even heard of Skwerl or Antiquiet.

The overall point is that the long wait produces too many variables.  Get on with it already.

If you wrote and record a song in 2003...what is the hold up here?  It needs an (up to this point) 11 year delay in getting released?

Per Axl, the first round of leaks from February 2006 (Better, IRS, TWAT) came from that time he pre-viewed tracks at The Crazy Horse Too in Las Vegas during the summer of 2003, when he played them for someone he was considering working with.   

The MSL leaks from May, 2007 (Chinese Democracy, The Blues, & Madagascar) came from someone in Portugal who claimed they got it from Fernando. 

2007 is also when the 1999 Sean Beaven produced versions of TWAT & IRS were leaked anonymously.

The Skwerl leaks in June, 2008 were something completely different.

Not to mention the still ongoing round of leaks from MSL's hacked emails.  Who knows what else is out there?

And this is really just my case in point.

Those leaks in 2006 were pretty much good to go.  A few minor tweaks were made, but nothing radically different. 

But he got someone involved in in the process a full three years earlier that burned him.  And from there, he waits ANOTHER 2 years.

Yep, for nearly three years whoever had them did not share them with anyone.  We didn't even know Better existed until Axl mentioned it in that Rolling Stone interview a month prior to the leaks.  As you said, eventually they just said "Fuck it".

With potentially coveted songs like The General, Soul Monster & Atlas as much as I'd love to see them part of a proper release, my guess would be the same damn thing is going to happen eventually.

I actually have a slightly different take.  A sort of positive spin.  Well...sort of.

While leaks are not good for an artist, its sort of is for our artist.  I personally will not believe any sort of work is being done on a new album until there is a another leak.

I could see that.  Sort of a "Where there's smoke, there's fire" type of thing.

I feel that way when I see management flip out when something leaks.  Gives me a flicker of hope, albeit short-lived.  :hihi:

My take is a little different... i don't believe the leaks had anything to do with the timing of the release....

as Del James said...and i consider him to be a VERY credible source...

CD was released when Axl was ready to release it.........


which is mind boggling on its own... but i dont think the leaks played much of a part in that ... and if it did... well then thats silly!

I remember it being floated that the leaks were intentional to gauge interest.  There was certainly some basis for it.

Axl went totally M.I.A. after Philly in 2002.  The three songs that leak are suddenly in the setlist.  No one int he GNR camp seemed to want scalps over the leaks, when with each subsequent leak episode they wanted blood.

I always did find it utterly bizarre that of 14 tracks slated for Chinese, they chose the 3 that leaked to debut live on that tour.  Coincidence?

Let me be clear:  I fully understand your point and agree with it in theory.  If you're talking about the first set of leaks, that very well may have been the case, although Axl himself said it was because he played the leaks for someone and somehow they were recorded.

Had the Antiquiet leaks come from Caram Costanzo, you could easily make the case that had the album been wrapped up with Sean Beavan or RTB, instead of at least the third producer, the songs may not have leaked.  THAT would be a situation where the particular lesson you describe could and should be learned. 

But, if what Skwerl said is true, and the Antiquiet leaks came from Jimmy Iovine and were taken or copied off his desk, I think that could've happened irrespective of time spent making the album.  So, I don't think the particular lesson you're talking about could necessarily be learned in THIS case.

Ali

I disagree with that.  The mixes of all the songs that leaked were much better, crisper and cleaner on the album version the leaked version, particularly the 2006 leaks.

That alone makes the album versions preferable to listen to, for me, at least.

Ali

Does seem weird.

And Axl was even joking about it in some of those early shows.  Joking about "downloading motherfuckers" and how we knew the words.

The only leak I prefer to the finished version is 'Prostitute'.

What the hell is that crunchy sound (for lack of a better term) that is underneath the track on the finished version?

If I had to guess what's going to leak next, it's going to be Silkworms.  Because MSL has it & whether he does it himself or indirectly, he loves the attention he gets from GNR fans when something leaks.

As we saw from the recent 'Going Down' leak, it's only a matter of time before that 10K muzzle they put on him comes loose.

I also think it would be something we have already heard in at least some form.

I'd be pretty shocked if it was a totally new song, completely unheard.

Jackie Chan has been floating around all these years, although whoever has is likely scared to let the dogs loose with that one.  Who knows? But yeah, I tend to think Silkworms, OMG or both.

I liked the Blues when it debuted in rock and rio still better to this day.

Talking about leaks, who else thinks that the leak of "If The World" was in some ways superior to the album version?. I preferred how the "laaaa, la, laaaa, laaa la's" in between the verses, was the same volume as the rest of the song. I'm not a fan of how in the album version it pans from left to right, as it goes REALLY quiet.

Just something I've always felt...

Let's face it, Axl probably isn't the easiest guy to deal with, especially when it comes to business. He wants things done in a way that benefit him and the band. He's not concerned with making the label money. The label obviously is looking out for their own interests and after their less than stellar dealings with Axl over the years, they're probably not eager to bend over backwards to make things more comfortable for him. Plus, we all know they'd rather have other notable former members in the band and lots of people in the business seem to think if they make life difficult for Axl, they could accomplish this. It sure seems like a losing battle to me, but they really have nothing to lose. The 2 sides don't work well together, that's painfully easy to see. So why some think it'd be so easy to just release another album is beyond me. Have you not been following this saga for the last 10-15 years?

Oh, no doubt.  Taking out that initial guitar part was a step backwards, in my view.

That concert is still my favorite version of 'Madagascar' and 'Chinese' too.  'Chinese' is a simple straight forward rocker.  Not sure it needed all that added nonsense on the album.

But in order to accept that premise, you need to accept this.

Axl is going to get a finished record done.  He's going to present it to the label.  The label will then say "eh...no thanks."

Simply put, is that credible?  The first part isn't even credible, because it suggests Axl gets to work.  But let's pretend that is real world.  He gets the album done and turns it in. 

At that point, the label is so dug in on forcing a reunion and/or just fucking with Axl, um...because (depending who you ask) that they tell him to piss off?

Thing is, the label's involvement comes before a record gets done.  The process of making a record costs big money.  Who pays for that?  There's been big numbers thrown around about how much the label paid to make Chinese; I don't know what to believe, but I'm sure it was a lot and not something that the label is interested in fronting this time around.

What's there to front, though?  Aren't there already songs completed?  It's not like they are at square one.  We know there are songs in the queue ready to go.  I find it hard to believe that the evil record company is the one preventing their release.

Like everyone else here, I've heard that there are songs out there, working titles, etc., but I don't know what, if anything, is actually 'ready to go'.  From past history, we know that songs that leaked almost 3 years before they were released were re-worked a great deal during that time.  So, I would guess that there's still a fair amount of time, work and money required to get whatever songs they have now to a stage that Axl is satisfied with. 

So maybe, that proves your point, the problem could be that it's difficult for him to reach a point where he's satisfied with the end product.  But therefore, what?  We should encourage him to release something he's not yet happy with?

Completely agree.  Its why I have never bought into this whole premise.

The costs the label has to put in have already been put in.  These songs are done.  Sure, Axl might have Bumble cut and paste a riff over top here or there.  Might have Frank throw in the odd drum fill on a finished song.  Then he can claim this was a collaborative effort.  But the lion's share of the work is already done.  Its not like these guys are showing up with notebooks filled with song ideas.  Its mostly done.

So if we are to believe that the label refuses to put out another album, you need to believe the label would be this stubborn, despite already paying for the work to be done.

Makes no sense.

And its this point that I say that DJ IS writing material, to add to the mainly recorded CD2.  BBf saying that he isn't writing can also be true, his contribution is already done.... And neither is lying.  :yes:

Dizzy and Richard have both said they are recording stuff, maybe, just maybe that their previous recordings don't work as well with the DJ stuff, or that they needed to adjust some stuff. Me I think that CD was a lesson for the whole GnR set-up and that they will drop quickly CD2 with little in advance notice but with a more joined together promotion.

Well I can hope. :smoking:

Apologists love to ignore this fact.  It literally makes zero sense for the label to block the release of an album they poured millions of dollars into, which is the case here, as the lion's share of recording was done during the Chinese Democracy sessions.

Because it can't ever be Axl's fault.  That's the constant.

Bring that up, and you don't have "the facts".  You do however, get 4 straight lines all ending with question marks.

There are reasons why the label may not release a record despite investing money into it.   One reason has to do with the perceived quality or style/sound of the music. 

For instance, at one point, Axl wanted to mix the record, but Bob Ezrin, who was asked to meet Axl by Jimmy Iovine, told him the record wasn't ready to mix.  MIA had her record rejected by Interscope because the material was too dark.

Has that happened in this case?  Possibly, although it's obviously not known publicly.   

But, there are reasons why the record company may reject a record.  If it is like CD, where it doesn't have a lot of radio-friendly songs with the traditional verse-chorus-verse structure, they may not be so anxious to get it out.

Ali

That Bob Ezrin meeting happened in 2000 regarding what would have been the Sean Beaven produced album.  Add 14 years of recording & production and I HIGHLY doubt the yet to be released tracks have been rejected due to their sound or style. 

As I've said, Axl Rose is a rock titan and I just do not see them putting a road block in front of a new Guns N' Roses album, a definite money maker.  At this point, and after all we've seen over the years, this current drama seems utterly self-inflicted.

IMO, if Axl Rose is a rock titan now, he was a rock titan in the early 2000's.  Additionally, significant money was already invested in the project by then.

The point was you have someone working for the record company as a quasi/potential-A&R guy directly telling GN'R their record was not ready to be mixed, effectively rejecting it.

So, the rejection of material written by the post-classic lineup of GN'R by the record label has happened before.  So, I don't see how you or anyone else can rule it out as a possibility.  A GN'R album may be a money maker, but the question may be, is it enough of a money maker?  The record company may think not. 

There certainly have been rumors of another album being handed in.

Ali

Clearly, it's more of a money maker for the label to release an album than it is collecting dust on the shelf?  Of course, it can't be ruled out as a possibility, but it does seem somewhat far-fetched.

Chinese Democracy was a money maker because Best Buy bailed them out. Without that it would've been a colossal failure. Axl didn't promote the album. The label did very little to promote the album. Axl was told there were 3 or 4 good songs back in the early 2000's so even though an album was ready for release, it wasn't deemed ready. So who's to say the label would be giddy about releasing a follow up even if it had the chance to? They're out to make money and I'm not sure how much time, effort, or money they'd want to put into a new album when it's return is far from a certain success.

And even if they are willing to put out a new GNR album, the 2 sides still need to come to an agreement. After the nightmare they went through last time, I can't imagine they'd kiss and make up so easily. I'm sure Axl probably has some demands that the record company isn't willing to meet. One of the sides has to give in a little and that could be a painstaking process.

Also, we don't really know the terms of their recording contract. Do they have one more release in their deal? If so, the label could certainly play hardball and try to force a reunion album somewhere down the line. Much more lucrative for them. Or even another greatest hits type album. Point is, I doubt it's as simple as "I have an album ready to go." "Oh good, we'll get that right out then."

True, Best Buy and Dr Pepper made it possible. But we will see all of the CD leftovers some day... The day of Axl?s funeral. That?s what record companies do these days. They release music when people die.

Hey Jarmo, since your name is mentioned, any additional color you can add?

If you think any album hasn't been released simply because "there were [only] 3 or 4 good songs" ever. I bet you are wrong. The exercise here is simple: Think about it and let me know which rock album in the last 10 or maybe even 20 years was released with more than 3 or 4 good songs, aka hits. I would like to hear it. AFDs don't come out every year.

My point is that albums hardly have more than 3 or 4 good songs which appeal to the general public (the so called hits). I believe Axl was told he only had 3 or 4 album material songs by someone he brought in to give his 2 cents about the production. This is different than hits. I've never seen this label reference before and it doesn't make any sense. I think you are combining two different rumors into a new one.

Why make a good album when you can make a great album?

No.

It was 2008. A while ago.

I still don't think leaking music is good for the artists. In most cases. In this case, definitely not. That's my opinion and of course people who benefit from it personally would disagree.



/jarmo

It already happened, though.

Nonetheless, as I said before, a GN'R album may be a money maker, but the question may be, is it enough of a money maker?  The record company may think not. 


Ali

Not true.  Dr Pepper had nothing to do with making the release of CD possible. 

In March 2008, as a publicity stunt, someone at Dr Pepper issued a press release stating that everyone in the USA would get FREE Dr Pepper IF the album were released within the year (thinking it would never happen).

Axl, knowing the release date and how much I like Dr Pepper, Axl instantly jumped on this FREE album promotion opportunity.   

You can read both Axl and Dr Pepper's press releases here:
http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/articles/showarticle.php?articleid=165



P.S. When CD was released, Dr Pepper tried to back out of this but GNR held them accountable to make good on their promise.
 
P.P.S.  I still have my FREE soda coupon!!!  ;D

P.P.P.S.  Axl didn't really know that I like Dr Pepper.

Dr. Pepper is one of my guilty pleasures.  The Swerl leaks really were a great spoiler to many people.  Instead of that first listen to a lot of fresh music the way Axl intended, that experiance and more was lost due to Skwerl. 

I have to ask something.

Axl has shown himself over the years to be a fairly petty and often vengeful man.  And look, please don't tell me about the story you heard about the guy that met him at a bar and he was just delightful.  You all know what I'm getting at.  People that cross Axl tend to get both barrels.

So how is it that so many people seem to be able to double cross him and fuck him over, and he takes it all in stride and suffers in silence?  Does that make sense?  The jerkoff label, crooked promoters, scheming managers, etc.  They all do him wrong, and he lets it slide.  Even if he's the one that takes the brunt of the public flack, he never speaks out.

That doesn't catch any of you...off guard, at all?

it happens quite often. Happened to Velvet Revolver too with Libertad. They went through a number of producers who kept telling them to go back to the drawing board. I'm guessing the expectations for "the most anticipated album of all time" were a little higher than the norm. So I don't find it inconceivable that Axl would've been pushed to deliver the best product possible.

So basically, Axl and crew released Chinese Democracy so that YOU could have a free Dr. Pepper?


Well, thank you then. I love both Dr. Pepper and Chinese Democracy!

Yeah.  Basically.  8)
You're Welcome!!!  ;D

P.S.  If you look carefully at the bottom of my post under where I said I still have my coupon, I wrote IN VERY SMALL PRINT that Axl didn't really know I like Dr Depper.  :P

---

Not exactly sure what you're getting at.  Caught off guard by what?

Nobody's a saint but say like over the past ten years, I'd bet that better than 85% of the people that Axl's worked with or associated with or interacted with have had a very positive opinion of him and the experience.  And there's a lot of interviews/articles that back that up. 

Now that's not to say he doesn't have his detractors or that he doesn't have faults or doesn't deliberately bring on some of the shit himself.

IMO he doesn't come across as the petty, vengeful, come-at-you-with-both barrels-ablazin' person he maybe once was, but make no mistake, he hasn't exactly sat quietly by and suffered in silence when people attempt to derail/destroy what he wants GNR to be.  Just google "GNR and ... Azoff / Eagles of Death Metal / that girl from the other forum / Mike Piazza / etc".

We have zero knowledge of what Axl/GNR is contractually obligated to do OR what Axl wants to do or not do so it's kinda impossible to gauge or judge if he's being petty/vengeful or if he's being a martyr or if he's reacting as any businessman/human-being would under those circumstances.

Guns N? Roses ?Chinese Democracy? Leak: The Inside Story

by Jeff Giles January 9, 2014 10:47 AM

If you?re interested in Guns N? Roses, 21st-century copyright law or just love any story in which federal agents draw their weapons on a music writer in his boxers, you?ll want to pack a lunch and pull up a chair, because the 8,000-word tale of how Antiquiet publisher Kevin Cogill got himself in legal hot water for leaking GNR?s ?Chinese Democracy? has finally been told.

Cogill, who wrangled himself free of the case years ago, says he continues to receive interview requests about the incident, which unfolded in the summer of 2008 after he made the (in retrospect, rather rash) decision to take nine tracks from the seemingly never-ending ?Chinese Democracy? sessions and stream them on his site. Even though he didn?t offer the songs for download ? and they weren?t up for very long, as the resulting spike in site traffic quickly forced Cogill to pull the files ? he found himself in the crosshairs of a high-profile federal case.

Given that he couldn?t really deny that he had shared the files, one might assume that the case against Cogill would have been relatively open-and-shut, but as he points out in his post, part of the prosecution?s case hinged on proving that there were actually plans to officially release the album ? and given that, at that point, ?Chinese Democracy? had taken on something approaching urban-legend status, the government found itself at a disadvantage. And once the defense?s attorney, in Cogill?s words, ?knocked out any talk of a felony copyright charge in the first round,? the case tumbled into a messy and expensive battle over a misdemeanor.

From Cogill?s perspective, the whole thing sounds like a nightmare, but for the reader, it?s both educational and entertaining ? a snarky, insightful look at how the RIAA?s panicked efforts to restore order in the digital era have contributed to some expensively ill-advised decisions on the part of the record industry, as well as some thought-provoking stuff about the extent to which artists are harmed (or can benefit) from pre-release leaks. The post is well worth a read, and you can check out the whole thing here.

http://ultimateclassicrock.com/guns-n-roses-chinese-democracy-leak/