Here Today... Gone To Hell!

Just wanted to see what others think about "where do we go now?"

Personally I think the band needs a well deserved break. All the touring going back to the end of 09, the band has been on fire. Of course who doesn't want new music but I think they've earned a well deserve break

Dizzy is out playing shows with Hookers & Blow.

Bumblefoot is gonna do some shows with his KISS tribute band before heading over to this side of the Atlantic for shows and also guitar clinics in Greece in August.

Tommy has his Replacements shows coming up.





/jarmo

Plan another Vegas residency, though it might be a bit soon. How about doing a tv special showing off the band? Small intimate setting with electric and acoustic sets? Release an EP with a couple new tunes and studio versions of the Seeker and Don't Let It Bring You Down?

NEW MUSIC!

Get together in a studio and start writing some freaking songs already.  We had to wait how many years for CD?  Axl's not getting any younger.  New music! I'm dying for some new GnR.

If you had bet which would come first : new music or new dates?

New dates. In all honesty that is a good thing. I remember seeing GNR in 2002 at the Tacoma Dome and wishing they would play live more often since as a Guns fan at that time we were used to not much activity. I got my wish. The abundance of concert dates and opportunities to travel is a blast.

That is ever so true. But travelling to somewhere only to hear pre-determined setlist. We want new songs or at least I do :peace:

Having said that new stuff in a gig is no good if you hear them the first time. You just can't get hold of it. Nothing has changed, new stuff and then plenty of dates after we've heard the songs repeteadly :rant:

I am excited about the BBF Kiss tribute as well as Tommy's Replacements reunion.  That is one reunion I am excited for!!  : ok:

Complaints, complaints, complaints...

There's no recipe for pleasing everybody.

All this talk about new music being some kind of Swiss Army universal answer to make everybody happy doesn't really make sense to me.

Yes, it would be nice to have new material. Would it make shows more appealing for the masses? Probably not, the majority still goes to the shows to hear the hits. Play too many new songs and you have a happy hardcore group of fans, but the majority might say something like "they played a bunch of new songs".

Bans are out there playing their old albums in full. Start to finish. That's not exactly a set filled with surprises.... Doesn't make the show worse!




/jarmo

I don't think you give 'casual' fans enough credit Jarmo.

People may not be queuing outside record stores these days but the release of a new GNR album is still big news to many, patricularly the rock community. Are you saying that if a new album contained songs as strong as sweet child of mine or paradise city people wouldn't want them to play it?

There are many bands I wouldn't consider myself as a 'hardcore fan' of but I've listened to their new albums and in some cases I've preferred listening to their new songs to hearing the same old hits time and time again. The fact is there plenty of 'casual' fans that enjoy progress, creativity and diversity in live shows and recordings.

Just my two cents..

There's a difference between casual fans and casual fans. ;)

Let me explain. There's people who will buy new albums by artists and go to shows. But they don't go on fan sites or "keep up" with news.

Then you have casual fans who like the songs they grew up with. They might not even know the artist has put out albums and/or changed members. They just go to a show to hear the songs from their youth. If they buy an album, it's probably just because they happen to see it on sale right in front of them.


So what I meant, for the second kind of music fans, new albums and songs in the sets aren't a "big" deal.





/jarmo

Sure thing but I think there are more in the former category of casual fans than you think. Despite ridiculous facebook comments, I believe a lot of 'casual' fans want a new album and are keen to see Guns succeed. Who wouldn't? If GNR go that extra mile and return with a killer album I don't think they will have any problem playing new material with possibly a couple of the old hits thrown in for ear candy. No doubt about it. The problem is, in my opinion, I don't yet really feel the band is hungry (but thats a separate debate).

The 'nostalgia' approach, playing hits to a casual (in the latter definition) only works a few times in my opinion - concerts are very expensive these days and once you've seen a band that perhaps you never got chance to see in our youth the appetite (exscuse the pun) to see them again must fade.

There are some bands I would watch time and time again....however I would consider myself a 'hardcore' fan of these bands. But generally they also very eclectic and release a lot of material.

I think we've done well over the last few years - but certainly from my perspective I'd like to see the focus on a new album or ep before a new tour. Even better if there is one ready to go or a re-release as a double album.

Well yeah, it was a generalization.

There's a bunch of casual fans who don't keep up with the news, don't visit the fan sites but go see the artist every time they come to town. They might not travel to see the artist though.

It's kinda like going to the movies for them. Have a few beers, sing along to the hits, buy a t-shirt to remember the show and go home. Entertainment.

They probably don't know the names of all band members, even if the band never changed.
I didn't say there's not a whole lot of fans like this, I think they might be in the majority at shows. If it's a regular festival/arena show.



I do find it amusing when I read somebody complaining about a band playing new songs they didn't know. Those hits you know and love weren't known or hits the day they were released!  :hihi:
People weren't singing along to November Rain when the band started playing it.

This is true for any song at any show. People might love to hear U2 play One these days, but back in 1991 it was a new song too. ;)


As I've said, you can never please everybody. I'm sure back in the day people didn't wanna hear that long new song with Axl on piano either.  :hihi:




/jarmo

I remember a few fans from Brazil back in Rock in Rio II in 1991, complaining about Estranged, saying it was a strange song, no chorus, never ends, boring. In 2011, Estranged comes back on stage and it's the biggest event of the whole show if not of the whole festival !

Gunners Only Proyects
Axl Vacations & Bussiness

 :smoking:

Agree with what you're saying but I got to know November Rain in around 1998/99 because it was played on the tv Sat & Sun mornings with an eye catching video to go along with it. So if it came on the radio I knew the song which is how a generation grew up getting to know songs.

I go back to the 70s where you didn't have MTV but got to know songs played on the radio which we constantly had on, bands put out lots of singles so by the time you got to a concert you knew most of the songs they played. What was gnr's last hit single? Are they still playing their songs on the radio in the US? They used to have the top 40 played every week which is also how you got to learn songs but don't know if they even have that any more.

I'd like to see them release more music videos but don't know if bands still do this, it was a great way to learn the songs & to either get to know the artists or watch your favourite bands on tv.

Times have certainly changed now though with computers and youtube etc but I'd love to see gnr put out music videos of any new music so by the time I get to another concert they won't be playing 'new' songs I've never heard.

Just my thoughts, others might have better ideas on getting to know new music before going to a concert so it's not a song you've never heard before.

I've seen some really cool Music Videos recenntly. As daft and outlandish as some of them are I miss them.

I'm also pretty sure that the cost of producing a really cool video is much less than it used to be.

So I agree I'd love to see some music videos from GNR.

Complaints?  All I want is some new music from my favorite band.  Hardly complaining.  If they wanted to tour some more, I'd go see them in a heartbeat but I'd rather have new music first.  Jarmo started the discussion by asking where do we go from here?  Well, new music is my answer.  So politely go fuck yourself.

Pity they can't clone themselves several times over, then we could have one group touring, one group in the studio and one group resting at home for a change.

Problem solved, something for everybody.  :yes:

Well it's quite obvious: new music, new stuff.. something new please. It seems like this forum too was more active couple years ago when CD was still quite fresh and new.. but now here seems to be much less posts, less activity.. and I don't like seeing that. 

But as we know, Axl likes to take his time so GNR could release a new album next year or in 2020, you never know with this band. I wonder how DJ is feeling at the moment.. maybe he really thought that they could release a new album quite quickly (I just got the feeling from his previous interviews) but it really doesn't seem like that at the moment.

Well, to be honest you just say Beta to fuck herself. It was quotation from her Instagram in response to somebody who want new music.

So Jarmo ban this man, he's saying bad thing about Beta...
:D

Don't be silly.

Thank you.





/jarmo

I think Axl would disagree. At one of the 1991 shows before UYI was out,  he asked the crowd if they had the November Rain bootleg and the entire place yelled back. He must have seen the crowd singing along to it.

Surely that might be true. But have you ever been to a gig where the entire place doesn't yell back no matter what's being said? In many non-English speaking countries most of the crowd simply don't understand what it is. Still you seem to get the loudest answers in those countries like in South America.

Fernando's fb page:

Getting a lot of messages about a "canceled" GNR tour in Brasil, we are working on dates in which makes sense for both the band and our dear promoter. So, hang tight and don't let the rumors get the best of you. When it does happen, you will all be very happy with the dates. I promise.

So I guess we're going to Brazil

I'llbe the first to say it! Stop touring and get in the studio. Brazil can wait.

I agree

I for one am excited for GNR to tour Brazil.  They are some of the most passionate GNR fans on the planet.  Again we will hear new music when Axl's inspired to do so, and when the time is right.  If Brazil is next on deck, I'm on board even though I won't  be there :(

I agree. I also I like more shows. And it?s true, in Brazil and other South American countries GN?R has plenty of die hard and passionate fans.

Besides if I could ask Axl something to in the future I would ask him to write a biography book rather than making a new album. In my case I?m more interested in a book at this point now knowing that former GN?R members have done it. And it worked really well for them. And I have the feeling that Axl could make a lot more money selling books than albums. Sorry...   :-X  :-[  :o

Oh dear

This. I'm brazilian and would choose a new album instead a tour easily.
Anyway, maybe I will see them.

I think a new album is unlikely. I would think a new song or two would be a better bet and pretty awesome if it happened. It seems easier and more acceptable for GNR to play new material anywhere but in the US so I have my fingers crossed for a Brazil tour to unleash some new gems. I would be really, really happy to hear some new tunes. Even just one or two. I bet the band would like it also.

I think we've got to the point now where a new album is on 80% of the fans minds. After touring for so long after CD, now you feel that the band needs to release another album sometime within the next year at least. I don't want GN'R to end up as a nostalgia type of band where they mainly play the hits, and that's starting to happen with them dropping a lot of CD songs live like Sorry and SOD... We need new material from GN'R.

According to my calculations, 200.33% of the fans want a new album!
I think the number might not be accurate...  ;)



You, and some others, seem to have this idea that one thing makes something else impossible. It's like you think the band goes "hey, let's record something, let's book some shows!".
And you think if there's no shows, it must mean they're in the studio.

I don't think it works like that....





/jarmo

I agree with this, but usually the opposite - i.e. if there are show booked there's no studio work going on - applies. Which is why people probably get concerned when more shows are announced.

Nostalgia acts is no fun after a while. New Music!

Some people seem to think the band is forced to record if there's no shows.

Well look at this month, August. Bumblefoot, for example, is in Europe playing shows. So no GN'R shows doesn't mean recording will take place.

How many examples of this do people need before they open up to this possibility?




/jarmo

I'm interested in new music only for the sole purpose of I enjoyed CD. Like Axl said a while ago about new music it will be more of the same. I think majority of people that want to hear new music want it to be like Appetite, which most likely not be the case which then leads to unnecessary and in fairly bad reviews

Guns N' Roses
Generally speaking, at this time we have no information on tours, albums, or DVDs. When things get confirmed we will let you know. Thank you for your patience.

So they just announce GNR dead? Or at least in coma?

They just gave fans an update, which is something certain fans have been craving.




/jarmo

Yep, information about non-informations ;) Catch 22 ;)

Common sense and experience tells you the band doesn't announce shows, albums or anything until there's something to announce.

Unfortunately, for some it's not enough. They keep asking for updates when there's nothing to update, hence this update.
It seems like some people need to be reminded of this fact occasionally.


Others know this and don't "demand" updates.




/jarmo

I'am just happy the band has been touring and axl has been in a great mood nice to see that. It's nice to be a GNR fan I for one don't need a new album or DVD, I just hope axl and the band are having fun and continue to put on the best live show on the planet

I think for some, the issue may not be whether or not an update is given.  The issue may be whether or not the update you want to hear is given.  If the answers desired are not the answers given, then frustration and outrage ensue.

Ali

Axl's figuring out what to do with his free flier miles from all the flying around the world they did this year.

Fernando said just the other day they are trying to plan a Brazilain tour.  I am not sure why the fans are so worried.  GNR just got done touring and are taking a short break.  It's not like 2002-2005.  They just ended their tour.  Some people just love to complain about anything. 

Are you referring to the MyGNR letter?

Nothing was demanded. A letter containing 5 respectful questions from fans was sent to GNR management. A letter far more respectful than the "update" as you call it, provided in return...

That a decent response can't even be provided in this instance shows the small-mindedness of those who provided the "update". Yes people have criticised the band and individual members in the past, but this wasn't delivered from those people and honest and respectful questions were asked.

Those to whom these were asked could not even respond in a like manner.

Disgraceful and pathetic. 

I think Jarmo is talking about things going on here and not in other places. Anyway making an album is not like flipping burgers. Many things are necessary to get an album done. We don?t know what kind of contract the have in place. We don?t know if they looking for a producer or any other thing that it?s important to make an album. Or maybe Axl is just on vacations in Hawaii. Why do people want updates of those things? I don?t need a daily update about a producer, or a contract or about negotiation with a promoter. I care about a final product. And if they don?t make anything at all for whatever reason. Well so be it and deal with it. Getting angry and frustrated won?t change things.

Besides I find it ironic that in some places people are asking Beta and Fernando for updates and answers when a lot of those people there are bashing Beta and Fernando 24/7. I?m not asking fans to be ass kissers. But at least they should shut up if they want colaboration from the GN?R camp.

I don't think so. I think Jarmo is referring specifically to the "nerve" of a fan-site to dare do a poll, decide on some quite reasonable questions and pass them onto the band in a polite and respectful manner, through the proper channels.

The questions weren't in any way insulting. They were polite and purely enquiring. They weren't (or shouldn't be construed) as un-reasonable or confronting and if I'm frustrated or angry at all, it's at the situation where a group of fans act in a far more professional manner than whoever it is that is speaking publicly on behalf of this band. 

If the band has no response, no update, no concrete plans or doesn't want to comment on a fluid or unknown situation, then so be it. I'm glad for the honesty and that's cool. However this situation was responded to with a meaningless, throwaway line on twitter. There was no apparent considered response and certainly the respectful tone in which the questions were delivered was not reciprocated.

THIS sort of attitude is what I happen to think breeds any confrontation or disagreement amongst people that are actually fans.

I was hoping that there was going to be more variety in the questions, but i must admit i was looking forward to a response from Axl.

However, mygnr might be the busiest but it is nowhere near as pro axl or pro TB as others. Asking questions then slating the management on a forum isn't going to get you anywhere, mods included.

They were put on the spot and if there is no plans for anything soon then it was never going to be easy to reply to 23 million+ fans.

Funny how it's never easy for these guys to "reply" to 23 million+ fans (on Social Media) until put on the spot...

No. They wrote a letter?

Certain fans seem to have a need to be told they're appreciated on a constant basis. They demand updates, like I mentioned earlier, even when there's nothing to update about. If you've been a GN'R fan for a few years, you know this already. Same drill, different year. "We need updates".


I don't know why this Conan person thinks otherwise. Maybe it's convenience , it all fits the picture considering I'm not exactly popular on that site.  :hihi:




/jarmo

im always of the mindset of "when something happens...it happens" im not gonna get all upset when theres no new album yet, or when they announce more and more dates, just knowing that Gn'R are active out there is good enough for me. I know we will get new music at somepoint and it will be great. Until then life goes on.

It was much easier in the old days when there was generally one way flow of communication. Just an article in a magazine would be treasured.

I get the feeling celebrities, politicians etclike social media and websites when it suits them but when the public start questioning, critiquing , demanding, commenting, sometimes abusing even online all of a sudden the medium becomes a nuisance.

Having lived through the CD days I guess I don't really expect 'updates' but I won't lie I am somewhat disappointed with the lack of output since the album was released. On the live front they tick all the boxes, but releasing anything seems to be a big problem for this band.

I agree, I think people get insecure and paranoid due to GNR's past. Every time there is a lack of news or updates everyone thinks about the 2002-2005 period of inactivity and are worried that it is starting again, which is totally unfounded.

This is the most active and most successful GNR have been since 1993, I think we all just need to keep calm. Whether its the live DVD, new album or a new tour.

That was when magazines were put out monthly and there wasn't an immediate need to know what was going on the way there is now.

I guess people want some sort of "state of the union" thing where Axl goes on Ustream and reads off a list of items GNR has in the works.

Maybe GNR's just going to spring a finished album on people instead of telling people it's coming out "soon" and having it backfire.

The days when I would buy Kerrang or Raw or Metal Hammer just to read a tiny comment or article about the band, if they were on the cover....fuck me that was like christmas. I agree that people expect too much these days. The band have been on the road for ages, I guess they are taking some time out. Why do we all have to get our knickers in a twist about that?

As they said when there is something to say, they'll say it. To say that they didn't tell you this in the "right way" is stupid.

I just posted this over at mygnr and felt it worth a mention here.

I began a thread there entitled: 'Generally speaking' - Should we re-assess?

So there's been alot of talk and dismay (?) regarding Guns' latest tweet about the status of a new album, amongst other things. Admittedly when I first read the comment I was disappointed having been fairly optimistic about a potential response from Axl or Guns.

But having had a few days to digest the comment and a few whiskeys tonight having had a shit week at work I thought that maybe we're missing the pretty qualifying comment that is loaded into the Guns tweet. 'Generally speaking' can be way of obviously not being too specific, a way of making a point without being drawn into a definitive and accountable statement.

Look guys, I am aching for new guns music just like you. But contrary to the many comments on here suggesting that this tweet is a major blow for the die-hard fans I would counter that this might be Guns way of telling is to just hang fire for a short while. It stands a damn good chance that plans are afoot and things are moving but until these are near set on stone Guns simply cannot afford to even hint at a possible release. Why? Because if things don't materialise the backlash will be massive.

So in short I say this. Lets try and keep the faith a little. I think the tweet from Guns is as much as they can say at this point in time, and I sincerely feel that the 'generally speaking' comment is key.

I'm not saying that at all jarmo, but recording doesn't seem to be happening at any time, that's how it looks. Axl would be best served by releasing the rest of the Chinese Democracy era tracks, and then focus on a new era with this current line up. To me it seems like Axl is torn between releasing CD2, or recording new material with the current guys. We know that the current band wasn't writing together at all, as of Ron's interview a while back. So Axl just needs to release that album with the CD line up, and tour those with the band. At the end of the day, a new album is due now and if fans can't see any signs of that to progress, they will naturally speculate and get frustrated.

How does the band stand legally if the current members re-do the instruments on the CD tracks? Having said that would they even want to seeing as they no doubt would much prefer to write & record their own songs than re-do someone elses. It also probably causes problems with the original players on the CD tracks as they will want their royalties, it's very messy.  :no:

As much as I would like them to make another few songs at least, I don't want them to not play some gigs as well so we can see they are still out there. Is it possible to do both at the same time, record an album as well as a few shows here & there?  :D

So much to do, so many decisions to make & not enough time to please everyone. Just don't disappear for months on end, let us know you're out there so we know something is going on.  :yes:

Says who?


I think this is the core of the issue right here. When fans start thinking like that. That they are due something. An album, an update, shows, whatever.
Nothing new there.


I understand that some have the attitude that fans put musicians in mansions, so they owe the fans. But if a lawyer, a doctor, a CEO or whoever buys a nice house, do people feel the same way? If you buy a car from a certain company, and the company's CEO lives in a nice house, does the CEO owe you something?

In both cases, you are a customer, you buy something. A car, a cup of coffee, a record, a concert ticket, a t-shirt.
Why is it ok to feel owed from one group of people because you liked their product (the art), but not another group (a different product)?

Does this mean artists such as GN'R don't appreciate their fans? Of course not. Just because you don't kiss ass all the time, doesn't mean you don't appreciate your fans (or customers depending on your business).


Some of the fans who feel owed an album, whenever they decide it's time, are also the ones who are quick to dictate what kind of album they are owed. Same kind of people who sit an comment on the shows they want to read about or watch on Youtube.



It's just funny how some people work though. When we got Chinese Democracy, some of the loudest people who had been demanding it were some of the quickest ones to condemn it. Use once and destroy. Kinda like "We want an album"... "We got an album, but we didn't want this!"... "We need a new album!".

Let's be honest here, some of these people won't like anything GN'R puts out or does. Why are they so desperate to get something new?





/jarmo

One album since 1993.
disputes over why Axl took control over the GNR name and clearly not enough substance to back up the years and years of faith from eternally hopeful fans.
Promises of a new direction and many albums worth of material recorded.
Band members clearly frustrated and vocal about it.


Can you do math???

To say "fans" have no right to be frustrated is more annoying than any politician I've ever heard spin a situation

I don't think the band members are frustrated. What do you expect them to say when they are asked about a new album? I'm sure they know the deal, they've all contributed to recordings in the past, even though we haven't heard anything, what they haven't done is all get together and record. Maybe they never will either. DJ said he did around 12 songs for the band that have been recorded and demoed. There really isn't much more for him to do I guess.

Don't get me wrong I want new music too, but we can't control it. But if they announce more shows ill still go.

You can be frustrated all you want, but does it make things better?

Even if GN'R had released a new album every 18 months, there'd still be things to complain about. We know that much.
Nobody's fooling anybody by acting like the release of an album is gonna make everything great all of a sudden. We have the past as proof of that.





/jarmo

Give us something. Anything goes. We don't really know how the fans are going to react if there's nothing to react to.

I think the common negative reaction would be " we waited so long for this ! That's it!?"

Of course some would says something like that.

"This isn't the album I wanted". For whatever reason.
It's kinda like some people need something new to dissect and criticize by a regular interval. And when they get it, it kinda seems like they're too afraid to enjoy you, and are just looking for things they can criticize.


/jarmo

Why does this board always seem to victimize people for just wanting to hear new music from their favorite band?  It's like no one can understand that after waiting like 15 years for a followup to UYI albums that the fans would get antsy waiting for another album. Granted, they owe us nothing but what is the point of this thread or even this message board if we can't wonder when new music will arrive?

You can wonder all you want, no one is stopping you.

I guess some people wonder/worry if it'll rain the next day while others wonder if the next GN'R album will be out in X months.


But what's wrong with wondering how come the people doing said thing are often the ones who are quick to judge and discard whatever they got?
I think it's kinda ironic that it almost seems like certain GN'R fans spend more time "wondering" than actually listening to the music.  :hihi:




/jarmo

I havn't posted on here in a while, but I think the last 10 posts or so have been BANG on, I'v heard this song and dance from Jarmo for so long its getting old, the last few posts on here sum up this thread perfectly.

If GNR released solid albums regularly, people here would not be complaining and criticizing, etc, Jarmo..... Its like imagine this board was around in the late 1980's and early 90's, do you really think people on here would be negative and criticizing, no of course not, they'd be raving about how much they love the music ! and you sure wouldn't have to try so hard to defend the band you love so much because no one would be complaining. Thats why we are here, because we love GNR too, you can't criticize fans for wanting new music and/or updates on whats going on with the band, like come on dude ! I just wonder how long this thread can go on ? Again the last few posts have totally summed up this thread nicely and Jarmo if you don't think a good new album would totally change the attitudes of people on here and how the mainstream casual fan views GNR today, your fuckn crazy.  If they can put out a kick ass album, sky's the limit for GNR.

I think back in the late 80?s and early 90?s people would have debated many things as well. For example One In  A Million, Steven Adler, Izzy, St Louis riots, Axl?s rant during the RS shows in 1989, AFD was real and raw while the UYI was not. I think if people want to debate, argue and fight with others they will find a way.

About a new album. Well, many years ago before CD came out. Axl himself during a show spoke about making a second album at the same time while making CD.  Nothing happen with that second album. I don?t want official news that later on for some reason become nothing.

I?m not wating or hoping for news about anything. If they make a new album and more tours of course I?ll be happy. But if they don?t, I won?t be frustrated or angry. For me is not the end of the world if they don?t make a new album.

Maybe the difference is that I don't believe you can please everyone. Not even GN'R fans, and knowing what we've seen in the past, I really doubt some of these people can ever be as happy as you described. Simply because the constant need to find things that are not to their liking seems to be such a big part of their lives that it's not easy to change.

Maybe I'm wrong, but if a person first spent years complaining about no new album and then in 2008 started listing all the things they didn't like about the album, only to move on to "waiting" for the next album, then I kinda doubt those people will be happy with a new album. Or anything GN'R does.

Now, I know that in no way are those people the majority.





/jarmo

I'd like new music, but who are they you want to change the attitude on? They speshul?

Rock can't be hip or socially acceptable. Axl should just get the mainstream to emorage (drama ;D) . He's too happy tho, I guess.

I don't think it's fair to say that everyone who feels that a new GN'R album is long overdue would have "always found something else to complain about anyway". There are actually a lot of fans who support the band wholeheartedly, who travel all over the world to see them... who also feel the same. There's nothing wrong in sometimes being a tad critical of the band you live for, otherwise you are not a true fan regardless. Part of the passion that makes you sometimes get angry at Axl for not doing something, is all part of the love and diehard dedication you have for the band. Ok, is complaining going to get us anywhere?, maybe not. But it's human nature to show frustration at something you LOVE and hold dear, not fair to regard all of those people as "haters or whiners".

Imho Axl probably doesn't feel the need to fill the hole between the new line up and the fans of the band just because there's no "new fans" (read: fans of the new line up) to satisfy. He knows he has nothing to prove to anybody. He's a star, he hasn't to fight to establish himself as an artist anymore. He also knows  that he can tour forever and "old fans" or people who just want to listen to the old songs will sold out almost  all of his concerts. That's it. Proportionally only few people among millions care about a new gnr release. That's why he's not that much concerned on releasing something. It's all about his one man show, he pays people working for him and that's enough. Artistically speaking he doesn't feel to owe something even to bumble dj or whoever (in terms of letting people know gnr is actually a band and not a bunch of session musicians), because just the fact they play under the gnr name it's the biggest spotlight for them and their solo things. Probably if he were starving & begging money on sunset boulevard he would care more  :hihi... but...you know  :hihi:

I know, and I'm not talking about the real fans.

I'm talking about a small vocal group who are overly negative and very rarely have anything good to say about anything relating to GN'R. Quick to demand things, and quick to belittle the band and its members.




/jarmo

So according to your logic "real fans" never question anything concerning the way GNR does things? I found it a pretty good point that was made a couple of posts before about nothing being wrong in being critical as there wouldn't be a point in criticizing something you don't care about. I don't know...have you ever withnessed sports fans being angry at their team because, for example, they played not well enough or seemed to have lacked attitude (according to the fans expectations)? Would you also agree that those people, being in the stadium for every game and spending their holidays and mony for travelling with their club, are no "real fans" because they voice their opinion in a vocal way?

How do you know who the "real fans" of GNR are and that what they think and want differs from those who are outspoken about their desire for new music and different songs being played live? How do you know the majority of GNR fans is happy with how things are going? What gives you the right to categorize fans in "good and evil"?

And even if, according to you, it's only a small vocal group being negative. Why do you even give a fuck?

Real fans are aware of how the band works. After all, they are real fans who have followed the band for some time.

They know demanding things and endless whining never amount to anything.



Yeah, sports fans can be criticizing their team, favorite athlete whatever. But after the match has been played or the race raced, it doesn't really change the result no matter how upset or angry you are.  ;)




Because I've seen plenty of them around.

By the way, nowhere did I say they don't want to hear new music. You need to understand the difference between wanting new music from your favorite band and demanding things from your favorite (?) band.




I'm sure I'm allowed to have an opinion. That's what it's called, my opinion.



Sometimes it's good to remember that the most vocal ones aren't necessarily the majority.



/jarmo

First time back here in ages... seems like nothings changed though  ;)  : ok:

I am a real fan - I've listened to the band for years, still do, go and see them as often as they tour and as often as I can afford... however new music I believe is needed. I listen to many many bands - however most have more than 4 or 5 albums and I think that is the key difference between other bands and GnR - GnR's musical output is at the lower end of the frequency scale. I really hope they can resolve things and release the good music I know they will have already recorded, and will record.

Jarmo i think you may be confusing "fan" with "fanatic". I don't see why you have to hand in your logical critical faculties at the door to be considered a "fan". Only a complete imbecile or masochist could possibly be uncritical of this band. I would say don't shoot the messenger on this one.

So long as the criticism isn't purely malicious and relates to the elelphant in the room we can all see then discussion is healthy,let it go.

GNR 'fans' aren't born any different to fans of any other band. We have just had Wayyyyyyyyyyy more disappointment to content with and the band sadly have failed to deliver on the promise of a new direction.
How can anyone who defended Axl and "Nu-GNR" from 96-2008 fail to be bummed that the promises and potential led to very little?? Axl screamed round 1 but never got out of his chair for round 2. I'm not being nasty, more a little sad that so much talent has gone to waste. The band does not appear to be a creative entity and I though the whole point of the new band was to move forward and create a new legacy. Oh well.

Critical opinion isn't a conspiracy to attack Axl, it's a reflection of the disappointment from people who want the best for the guy. Isn't it better that people are bummed there is no new music or direction than people stop caring at all?? I would say be grateful rather than annoyed Jarmo. No new music and at some point this board will die a slow death.

Well correct me if I'm wrong but the word fan came from the word fanatic...  ;)






I guess we got different opinions on what healthy is. :)

Also, it's one thing to be critical for the sake of being critical, which some are. Whatever their reason(s) might be, there's plenty to choose from.
Or to offer constructive criticism!




It all depends on your point of view.

It's easy to say "oh but they spent all those years doing nothing, they should've released at least ___ albums in that time". That's easy.
But then again, you can also say "well, maybe most bands would've given up at that point".

Whatever happened, happened for a reason, or reasons. Everybody knows this. But some choose to just go for the simple answer. That's true for a lot of things. It's always easier to label somebody as an asshole if they're not acting like you expect, than to figure out why they didn't do what you expected. For example.




Yes, there's good in everything. Wish more GN'R fans would see that!





/jarmo

But hey, at least we got some new leaks about a week ago (Going Down and couple different versions of Better were leaked, search those from the internet if ya wanna hear them, there has been a lot of discussion of these leaks on other, more active GNR forums). Any new music is a positive thing to me, hopefully Axl & the band can now finally start working on the release of the next album.

.... look at this guy.

Spent a few hours reading through what you call "MORE ACTIVE FORUMS", all I read is hatred, racism, put downs, etc...

I along with others can come to either our forums or Jarmo's and actually learn a thing or two, take advice and pay it forward, read a thread without having to shower afterwards, unlike these other "more active forums" you claim. 

One thing I learned, there is always someone in whom thinks they can do your job better than you.  These people are people in whom didn't receive a lot of attention as children; or bullies that thrive in the failures of others, for the sole purpose of the "I told you so" mentality.  Which is truly sad and not a way to live.

We are all on the same boat, to follow a band we love, respect and want to see nothing but the best; however the destructive criticism hinders the outcome.  If your questions go unanswered, I for one am sorry - I wish I did have more time to read through the hate to figure out what the real questions were.  There is a lot of hate.  Have I mentioned of how much hate there is out there?  A lot. 

In regards of this "open letter" to management.  I got mine through a Facebook PM.  Please do imagine how many messages I receive on FB, thousands, which after reading these so-called other forums, I am like, oh - apparently I received a letter that I ignored and ignited further hate towards me as a person, as a minority and as a man or as most of them claim boy.   In the defense of our FB administrator - he did tell me that we had received 5 questions, of the basic form wanting to know what's going on with new music, etc... 

Though I am not belittling anyone in whom conjured these questions; I did not know there was a huge letter attached to it, where it got left unanswered, or as you would say in deaf ears, etc... I understand the frustration to have such a letter go unanswered.  Though it doesn't merit the outcome on these so-called other more active forums.

I do apologize, if my apology means anything to some, sorry.  The GNR FB post, was not an answer to this letter, it truly was just poor timing; but if you are the person in whom thinks negatively 100% of the time, whatever gets said or not said, will always gets contorted to fit your fantasy and further the hate/love towards someone you know nothing about.  (I do say "you" in a general form, not directed at any one individual.)   

The 'haters' are a small minority who repeat themselves daily. I doubt they would even go to a GNR show if one was in there city.

Try not to let those people get in the way of the more positive fans who want to know the intentions/future of there favourite band.  :beer:

Even if GN'R had released a new album every 18 months, there'd still be things to complain about. We know that much.
Nobody's fooling anybody by acting like the release of an album is gonna make everything great all of a sudden. We have the past as proof of that.




Your 100% correct and it's a shame that things haven't changed..Back in 1991 it seemed like an eternity between AFD and UYI. When UYI was finally released I remember people saying it should have been 1 consolidated album...Funny thing is 1 consolidated album consisting of NR,Coma,Estranged, and Civil War would not have left enough space for many more songs and certainly would have left room for more griping..

To put things into perspective all you have to do is remember what things were like to be a fan in the dark days of the late 1990's and to a lesser extent 2003-2005.   

I agree with you here and just posted that sentiment on the board you're probably referring to. It's going to take some work on both sides to get everyone back on the same page but I really do think it's doable.

Everyone can't agree all the time, but I definitely think there's a middle ground between insults being hurled back and forth.

There are things which are acceptable, then there are things which are just so far off reality that should be taken down due to the mere fact that there is absolutely not progression that can come out of what was said.

I would never expect anyone to agree 100% of the time, that's just not the way the world works and I like that.  Opinions are best when expressed in a cool state of mind with room for correction and/or improvement.

Racism should never be accepted.  That's my opinion, and that is just that - my opinion, which I am sure is shared by oh, hmmm - millions of people. 

[/quote]

I completely agree. I'll PM you to continue the conversation if you're interested as I truly do believe there's a way to improve this situation.

I agree with you fernando, racism has no place in this world. I hope things start becoming more positive both for the gnr community and for the band itself!
looking forward to 2014

But how does it matter whether there are a few disgruntled, obnoxious fans and ex-fans posting at one GN'R forum? How does this affect GN'R, Team Brazil's job and the rest of the fans who are looking for ward to the next chapters in GN'R? Why should any of us, you included, suffer from daft kids who enjoy throwing abuse? You are management, lift yourself above such silliness, take the high road. It should have no bearings on anyone of us. Continue to keep us informed, frustration grows from uncertainty (and please do reply to our FB conversation ;)). Cheers.

I totally agree with you Soul Monster (especially with that bold part).

On the other hand I understand Fernando's point of view too, some people have crossed the line with the accusations that are way too personal. I understand constructive criticism but I don't want to see things getting personal.

But should all this nonsense be slowing down the process of releasing new music?? Hell no, there always be internet trolls and haters, but in the end it goes like Soul Monster said, lift yourself above this sillines and take the high road.


Yeah, this is true and GNR's new management has done many good things lately (a lot of touring, Las Vegas residency etc.) and I hope the year 2014 will be the best possible for the band, the next obvious step could be a new album release.

I think it's a good thing that Fernando feels comfortable posting here, that's something we all appreciate. Regarding the topic, I have to say that I feel a lot of it has to do with simple communication. I think it has alot to do with when people don't know what's going on with plans, albums, tours etc, they naturally vent. While I do realise that there are a hell of alot of "fans" who act immature in "venting", I also can't deny that GN'R in theory could do more in keeping fans in the loop as to what's planned and how things are progressing.

Do you truly believe that the comments of a handful of persons weigh my conscious?  It doesn't, and because of that; it fuels the hatred of these so called "rotten apples". 

I got a question; being that this is such a "tight" community, how can the mass just ignore the redundancy of these "rotten apples"?  When a simple hey joe, enough?  If that doesn't work, a vote to get a certain post deleted and that person warned?  I don't care either way, it's just an opinion.

Also, who made these people superior to say housekeepers is something someone should be ashamed of? 

What do they do that is so important and life changing that far supersedes this so "ashamed" profession? 

Anyone in whom have maids, or has had someone clean their house for them; I doubt there was not one ounce of respect where a simple hi and thank you weren't exchanged.  It baffles me that these people are considered comedic by others.

Only reason I am addressing this is because if I don't; it'll only get worse and I feel enough is enough.  These rotten apples will surely fire back with some witty responses, which will hopefully show some of the others that it gets quite boring.

Fernando, I sent the letter and the questions on info and admin email from Team Brazil. On Facebook, I only told you I had sent them, and you replied saying you were going to check.
I appreciate the apologies, though.

And, no one "hated" you or anyone for the lack of evidence or anything. We were actually surprised this thing went so far.

I agree with you.

I received the letter from facebook, I believe from the idiot I blocked baiting for attention.  Anthony something.

My admin told me about the questions, as I previously stated.  Did not know about this letter.  Again, apologies.

Let's see what we can do.

Anthony Tsunta. He's a fucking idiot. I already told him that he's the kind of douche that makes the fanbase looks bad.
I didn't know he had sent you the letter.

Just for the record, he had absolutely nothing to do with the letter elaboration or the questions pick-up. The whole effort was made by the MyGNR Community, with full support from the administration. The letters were sent to Info and Admin, and I also sent to Nik, who forwared it to both Beta and Kim.

Again, this letter and specially the questions, were picked having in mind "What would end all the complaining and bashing?" I believe having those five questions answered in any ways would put practically all the hate to the ground.

Once LA is open for business I will speak with Kim. 

I found the "letter" to be indicative of the ridiculous sense of entitlement among many of the users on the more negative "fan" sites (use the word fan loosely as so many of the users seem like anything but).

GNR is a band. We are fans. If GNR chooses to release something, we can choose to purchase it. If GNR chooses to perform somewhere, we can choose to attend. Nobody is owed anything in this relationship. Nobody is forced to listen to GNR and GNR isn't forced to do anything.

The problem is that some fans for some reason are under the impression that GNR is obligated to operate under the arbitrary fantasy criteria dreamed up by some fans

The "other" site is beyond saving. Fans who want to have intelligent and respectful conversations about GNR are going to come to HTGTH because this is where the intelligent and respectful users congregate. There are some on the MSL site as well, but out of the most well known sites, HTGTH is the only one that hasn't been ruined by rude, negative, mean spirited people.

Hi Fernando,

I wrote the letter which accompanied the selected 5 questions and I'd like to thank you for your clarification. If you get the time to reply to its contents, that would be great.

None of us condone the downright harassment pereptrated by Anthony Sunta (who for the record, to give it some perspective, is autistic).

Well said. Thankyou Fernando for your posts. I tried to delete my acccount on that other site and it wouldn't let me.

Let's be careful about posting people's names here. We don't want to fuel more hate.

Thanks, stepping away for a few.

Jarmo, stay steady there fighter.

See you guys and gals a bit later.

thanks for the answers fernando! all the haters need to stop the bashing and realize the best is yet to come. like mr tommy the general stimson once said:

"get on board or fuck me off!"

 :beer: :beer:

Fernando  -  we love and support Axl and your team.   I enjoyed the Vegas Residency in 2012.  Thank you so very much.  

Well, it seems to me you are hurt and annoyed by the comments of a few rotten apples, and even more important, it seems like you are suggesting these morons not only get under your skin, but also influence your work: "the destructive criticism hinders the outcome". I understand it is insulting, I understand it hurts, but there is absolutely no other professional way for a manager to deal with this than to rise above it and see the criticism disappear as you continue your good work which includes informing the fan base about the band's plans in a professional and polite manner. The morons who insist on throwing abuse and racial slurs doesn't even deserve your attention.


Most forums doesn't tolerate racial attacks, hate posts, etc. They are more or less immediately deleted by the mods and admins. This goes for this forum, mye own site, and many others. Don't let the strategy/attitude of some other forums ruin our reputation.


I am afraid that by displaying so acutely that their hate posts get to you, they will only continue their attacks on forums that allow them. There will always be haters in this world, and there will always be arenas where they are allowed to spread their shit. Rise above the hate posts. They come with the terroitory of being in your position as a manager. Keep the frustration in the fan base to a minimum by regularly informing us of your plans, and not only what will happen in the next months but what Axl's current vision for Guns N' Roses is.

Well now we ALL know a letter was written in a respectful manner and passed to the band through the correct channels, I guess we'll see if there's a response.

I don't post on MYGNR and I don't agree with the (seemingly) general opinion of you over there. At least you run a reasonable forum, not full of spite. My frustration was soley to do with an apparent complete lack of response, not what was said in any such response. If GNR have nothing to update so be it, but we were told from a couple of different sources the Rockfuel DVD would be out this summer.

That date remains on Rockfuel's website here:

http://rockfuelmedia.com/event/guns-n-roses-3d-appetite-for-democracy-live-at-the-hard-rock-las-vegas/

We've been told by Richard and DJ over and over again that music is recorded and they are working on a new GNR album.

Apparently one that Ron, Tommy, Frank, Dizzy and Chris seem to know nothing about and one that Axl can only opine so far as "definitely maybe".

Some clarification either way from the official source would go a long way to repairing this relationship and even if it's only and official "we have nothing ready to go yet, but we hope to one day" then that's cool by me.

Edit: Btw Fernando if you ever read this. Visit MyGNR and look at the Rockfuel DVD thread. When the summer 2013 release date was put up there was nothing but goodwill and excitement about the upcoming release. Food for thought right there man. Nothing but goodwill and best wishes, when the majority thought they were about to get even a DVD of concerts they'd already seen one way or the other.

Imagine what an album or a single would do...

Soul Monster, just because somebody describes what he's/she's seen, doesn't meant it affects them or their actions.

But you can't win with some people. If you truly believe that communication is the answer to shut these people up, I think you're wrong.... How often have they've been unhappy with answers given to them, or interviews by band members? Just because they didn't get the answers they wanted...




/jarmo

Fernando said, "the destructive criticism hinders the outcome". I don't know how else that should be interpreted. And the fact that he decides to post here to talk about the haters who insult him and his family, pretty conclusively tells us it does affect him.

I have never said we should communicate with the assholes. I suggested rather explicitly that Fernando shouldn't even acknowledge their existence. After all, they are confined to more or less one forum which is easily avoided.

But it is also important to keep the uncertainty levels down through informing us of the band's plans both for the short and the long term, and by doing this Team Brazil can keep the overall frustration among the real fans lower than it is today. It is well and good to tell us nothing concrete can be disclosed (as per Fernando's recent tweet), but it would also be nice to know what Axl wants with the band now. He was pretty communicative prior to CD's release, but it is obvious his plans has fallen apart (or at least the timeline for them has) and that makes us wonder: what is happening now? If we weren't curious about these things we wouldn't really be fans :).

Agreed. There's nothing wrong if us asking. The letter was not demanding answers, the opposite of that, actually.

So nice to see some civil communication between the camp and fans there.  Thanks for that Fernando.

But I think  soul monster was spot on with his discussion points.  The rotten apples REALLY stink but you can't let them "spoil the whole damn bunch".  Rise above their stupid, never-gonna-be-happy attitude and concentrate on the 98.43% of your fanbase that is loyal, supportive, and genuinely wants to see the band have big success.  And if the "more active" forum sucks so badly, stay away from it!  There's plenty of good ones out there.  Pick one and have a teensy bit of back and forth like this thread and then you'll see which forums are active or not.       

Even the reply about the letter "Let's see what we can do" was encouraging.  Good stuff.

The "most active forum" is not a bad, hateful place. It is the only place where all kinds of opinions are allowed, that includes hateful opinions from douches, yes, but they're just a few.

Affecting as in "you took time out of your day to respond"?

I don't think it affects him in the way that he loses sleep over it or let's it affect his job or decision making.




I find it somewhat ironic that places where that kind of behavior is allowed are "demanding" communication from the band. The band that, according to these people, rarely do anything right.
It's kinda like an elementary school playground. You bully a person, and then expect him to play along when you're one guy short on your team...  ;)



I decided ages ago that I can't stand for turning this web site into a breeding ground for that kind of behavior. I'm sorry if it upsets some of you.
I'd rather have an intelligent constructive conversation than read pages and pages of somebody's attention seeking negativity filled verbal diarrhea. But that's just me!




/jarmo

No one is demmanding anything. Did you even read the letter? One of the GNR employees told me the letter was excellent and very touching, but I guess you'd know better, right?  : ok:

And "attention seeking negativity filled verbal diarrhea"? What? Do you even read MyGNR? Because if you did you'd know it's nothing like it. Even if it was, though... Better than thiz zombieland. The biggest activity you had this week was just today when people from MyGNR came to post here. Congratulations.

I know better than what?
That once there was a tweet, some people got upset about it? Because they felt targeted? Because they felt that was a response to their touching letter?

Congratulations on writing a touching and excellent letter. :)


No one is demanding anything? Aren't you the same person who said something like "all we want is a new album"? And then got upset by the response to your comment?



It makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside to think that you had to come here to communicate with management.
Quality over quantity. ;)


Sorry if you felt targeted. Or maybe you're defending your online pals. It's understandable. After all, didn't they used to make fun of you in the past?




/jarmo

Oh, now you touched my wounds.

Sorry about that. I understand that you don't want to answer.


Nowhere did I attack any site in particular or however people choose to run their sites. It's up to them.
I just pointed out a little group of people and how it appears they conduct themselves. It's my opinion.

I merely pointed out the fact that I'd rather have a constructive conversation, than read through lots of insults aimed at other members (who usually go to fan sites for the same reasons you and I do), the band or people close to the band.

If you prefer the latter, I really couldn't care less.



The fact that you had to try to insult this site is kinda funny though. Yet here you are....




/jarmo

Try to take a page from Fernando, be more positive!

Oh, don't you worry about that.  : ok:

 :beer:


Manets, what kind of an answer to the five questions would make you happy? Be honest.  :)





/jarmo

Affecting as in him saying that "the destructive criticism hinders the outcome" and as in him devoting the content of a post to express his frustration with it. What that does to his sleep is something I am not going to speculate on :), but I am happy to hear from one that knows him that it probably doesn't :D. I mean, there are thousands of reason why a rock band manager could chose to interact with the fan base, and most of them would be extremely gratifying to the fans, Fernando chose to do it to address a few moronic kids who get a rise over throwing retarded insults his way, something he should just basically ignore.

Well yeah, this goes to show that this new management team of GNR could be more professional when it comes to handling these kind of situations.

But they are new at the job and they do get an ENORMOUS amount of hate posts thrown their way, so I think we should give them some slack. In my ideal world Fernando's first post in this thread could have been written like this:

"I spent a few hours reading through some of the larger forums and I understand the fans' frustration. As I said in an earlier statement, we are currently working on things for the future and I hope to be able to share it with you in a short time. I hope you understand that I can't go in any details right now. I would also like to apologize to the authors of the "open letter" for not responding explicitly to them. The statement I sent out was not in response to that letter. I hope to be able to come back to those questions when things are falling into place. For now, I wish you all the best and look forward to share exciting events for 2014 with you all. Best regards, Fernando at Team Brazil".

It's typical manager's speak full of politeness and vagueness, but it works! :D In my opinion it just doesn't look good when he so obviously makes a point of being hurt by the abuse hurled at his family from a few kids over at various Internet sites. They should be able to rise above such things. They are management now.

I do understand his desire to address the abuse taking place on some forums -- we are only human! -- but I am afraid that venue has been sort of blocked after taking a management position. It is simply not a battle a manager is supposed to take. He should rise above silly Internet thugs, take the high road and not go into battle with the trolls and haters.

Yeah but those douches tend to flood all the threads. Alot of the threads are also very hateful and say the same old same old.

I think that they care enough to come post on this forum is above and beyond. What further proof do you need that they care about the genuine fans? Do you think Irving Azoff would have given a rat's ass about ANY of us? And they had the fanclub set aside a few tickets for the Brooklyn Bowl so diehards like myself and Bitty Ted got to go!

This is exactly what I've been thinking too of this whole situation. Do you see anything like this happening with other big bands like Metallica, Iron Maiden etc.? No, never. Why? Because their management knows exactly what to do.

I disagree. I think it shows genuine sincerity which is rare in today's world.

I'm still not sure what you're trying to say.... I guess we have a different opinion on what it hinders.

Imagine you discover a new band that you think is amazing.
So you go to a fan forum, only to be ridiculed for being a "fan boy". Maybe it doesn't interest you, to argue with these people, so you leave.
One less supportive fan stopped posting.

Imagine you're an outsider wanting to see what fans of a certain artist are into at the moment. You visit a fan site and see them complain that the band is playing too many shows. Maybe it makes you come to the wrong conclusions about that artist's fans.

Just some hypothetical scenarios where that kind of behavior affects something.


Also, imagine if you're in a group of people and a few are what you'd call rotten apples. They're not representing the rest. An outsider takes a look at your group and sees the loud minority acting however they act. This person might not exactly get overly excited about doing anything with your group.... Is it fair? Maybe not. But don't get all upset when it happens...



I don't see him directly addressing "moronic kids" in his original post. I see him doing what most of us do here. We post when we got something to say.
In this case, somebody making statements about "more active forums".

This is nothing new. It's been going on for years. Some want to eat the cake and have it too.

You (not you personally, people in general) want your freedom to say what you want, no matter how stupid or plain disrespectful it is. But you (again, not you personally) can't live with the consequences of that and get upset at the wrong people!





/jarmo

But we should give them some time. It takes time to get that thick skin. And still, the important thing is how they are able to facilitate the band's goals and objectives. THAT is what makes them good managers, not the occasional human fragility displayed in messages on social media :)

So on one hand, you don't want him to respond to this because "it's not professional". On the other hand you want management to show that they care about us, the fans, and communicate with us more?

Is there a Swiss Army universal solution for this?




/jarmo

But Azoff released Chinese Democracy, and TB didn't release anything (except one stunning beach towel).

And Fernando complaining on MyGNR? Show me another manager of big rock band who bitching about bad opinions on the internet.

Problem is that TB don't talk about Guns N Roses, and future of the band. They're complaining about harsh fanbase instead, yes it's very professional.

You don't wanna be hated? You have choice:
1. Don't work as manager
2. Release something

In this businesses you have to be thick-skinned, you are public figure so you have to live with it or leave it.

I interpreted the sentence "the destructive criticism hinders the outcome" as Fernando saying that all the destructive criticism makes it harder for the band/management to do their job, which would necessarily be bad for us fans. What do you think he meant with that sentence?

It is very easy to on a regular basis inform the fan base/customers/share holders/audience on what takes place WITHOUT using that as an arena for expressing frustration with criticism. This is public relations 101.

I agree. And about the human fragility aspect, everyone has to keep in mind that although they are part of GN'R's management team now, Team Brazil (e.g. Fernando and Beta) were family long before that.  Point being that if someone insults your family, for example, your mother, though it may not be professional to react with anger and defensiveness, it is human.  Decoupling the personal and professional aspects there may fall into the "easier said than done" category.

Ali

The problem with your way of thinking is that maybe there wasn't anything for "Azoff to release" without Beta, Fernando and Vanessa.
Ever thought about that?






Maybe they wouldn't do it in public because they want to be "nice tot heir customers"?

Nooo, that can't be it!




What is this "release something" answer to all problems? May I ask you a few follow up questions?

When there's a new release: Can it be anything, any style of music, any length? Can it be the musicians/producers Axl choose to work with or do you need to make those decisions? How long will this happiness last before there's a need to release something again? This frustration is based on what? You made a down payment on a release or you want to hear new music? If it's the latter, how come other people are less hateful even though they also want to hear new music?

Thank you. :)



/jarmo

It's usually good to see the band's management actually communicating with the fans, but when I see messages like "I'm glad everyone is happy with stolen material.  Well, I guess that's it.  We don't need to put anything out now. Everyone took the fun of everything.  MSL and co will pay for what they did" and "complaints, complaints, complaints." from the band's management, that doesn't seem very professional to me. I have no big complaints about Fernando's new message from today, it's just these couple earlier messages (sent by Beta for example) that bother me, that's all.

Yeah, I agree completely. Well said.

I think my conclusion must be that I hope Fernando will come back here again soon, and that we can talk about Guns N' Roses and not about haters.

I agree with your last statement 110%.

Ali

Ali and Jarmo sound like brainwashed zombies. Things people do for backstage passes. Pathetic posters.

I have never received a backstage pass. I am just being honest. Ali wrote some beautiful posts. And Jarmo really cares about the band and his website. It's called loyalty.

Well for one, it gives all fans a bad reputation. As I pointed out. Or at least tried.
Also, all that negativity will affect people differently. Maybe some will change their attitude to fit in with that crowd.

I think negativity breeds more negativity. A little negative group of people among a bigger group will just make more people negative. I still don't really understand what the negativity in the name of freedom achieves, at the end of the day. If it's wishing the best for someone, it's kinda a weird way of showing it.



I don't necessarily think it makes their job more difficult.
Unless you have a lot of people emailing them asking for comments about a comment on a picture. For example, imagine having hundreds of messages from people trying to get a rise out of you because they read on the Internet about something you allegedly did/said.

It just makes your inbox more cluttered.... ;)




Ok. The issue here is that people need to realize the difference between a few things. Private conversations are not press releases or updates.
As well as the fact that a bunch of people are fishing for info any way they can.

People are not posting GN'R questions only on forums, Facebook and so on. They post them in places that have very little to do with GN'R.
Just because a person works for GN'R, doesn't mean they're not allowed to be a human being at times.

And why is one comment aimed at one person suddenly aimed at a group of people?





I guess you would know what you did for backstage passes.... Have some mouthwash! ;)

You must've accidentally mistaken this site for some other site where your post would be followed by comments on how great it was...

Last warning. Next time I won't be as nice. :)



/jarmo

If Fernando lined it up w/ Axl come on here ready to answer questions tonight, would people actually have questions ready without it becoming a free for all?
 

I think this is the only forum that something like that could be done. I like how other forums are busy, but they sacrifice having haters for popularity.

Also, is this the right time for questions? I mentioned this on another forum, if the band is making plans for 2014 then there's probably not much publicly they can talk about apart from general chit-chat. It would be cool, but if something like that were to happen early next year, then it could be more worthwhile.

There's a lot they can ask about the past 15 years that hasn't been brought up before, possible documentary film or a book about the making of the album, actually putting it all out there, ending the speculation of what was really going on from 95-08 ,and why they were running into problems on getting it made, that had never happened to any other band for that length of time. It probably is more mundane and about as fun as getting dental work done than we assume it to be.

It's probably a good time to look back at that, the songs on the album that haven't been discussed, the past 5 years of touring and road stories, and of course, wanting to know what's in store in the future - if there's still a relationship with the record company, or fences had to be mended over how Interscope handled things at the time. GNR made Geffen a wealthy man to have a stake in Dreamworks, yet they get thrown under the bus with new management changing people around, cutting a lot of people loose who had worked with GNR for years.

I would kill to know Axl's thoughts on Ben Affleck being casted as Batman.  Was that one of the 5 questions? :hihi:

I think all the GNR community needs is new music...a lot of the bitterness will disappear if we actually have something to talk about.

Even the haters will stop hating...

All those issues are probably to personal to all those involved that it's just not worth the headache to publicly speak about, otherwise, they would have openly mentioned them in the interviews over the past 10 years. Sure, as a fan I agree it would be cool to find out a bit more about that stuff, but thinking logically, it would be hard to speak about those issues without digging up the past.

Ultimately I'd be more looking forward to the future, in hoping I get a CD in my hand or see GNR on tour in 2014 then I'm happy. If Axl was to pop on for questions that would be cool too, but if he hasn't done it for a while then he probably has his reasons why he doesn't and they probably still stand.

The haters will always hate, until they actually get a girlfriend or find something more interesting than posting daily about a band they don't like.

Haha, good one!




Interesting.

Is the root of the negativity the fact that there's no new album out? Or is the root of negativity a little group of people who will never be happy, no matter what and them influencing a larger group to become negative (who in turn would be happier with a new album out)?

What I'm saying is that this negativity and bitterness. Is that one group, or more smaller groups?

Is it like this: O - one big group of negative/bitter people that would become happy people with a new release.
Or like this: . o - one tiny group that'll never be happy because they love the attention, and another group influenced by the smaller group, that would be happy with a new release.

 ???



/jarmo

My argument for the "New music will stop the hating" theory is this: It didn't stop when CD was released...

As I've said, I understand why people get upset and I believe they should be able to express the things they don't like, I just think they can do it without crossing lines.

me too.  : ok:

But how many times do you need to see something obvious like "I would love to have a new GN'R album out"?
Have you ever met a fan that wouldn't like their favorite band to release a new album?

How about "it's the same setlist!"?  :hihi:

Or the all time classic "It's not GN'R!".




/jarmo

Of course there will always be people with an unhealthy negative attitude but judging by something new that was heard last week the fans are ready for new music and have a great positive attitude.

To be fair we all heard CD for 6-7 years before it came out....

Only complete pathetic morons complain about things like that

I've never heard ANY of those complaints! (I kid, I kid!)

I just think as time passes some become more impatient than others. I'm just saying I get people's frustrations overall.

You can never stop the hating when some haters hate the band for simply continuing on. There will ALWAYS be haters. But that's okay. If it bothers you, stay away from those forums that have them. It really is that simple. Whatever you do, don't let it get to you. Life's too short to let it be influenced by such people.

The problem, if there really is one, isn't the rather small amount of people who will never be happy, but the sentiment of the more normal fans, those that constitute the majority of fans, and there has been a swing towards negativity lately, and, as I have said a few times now, this pendulum could be stopped by Axl or Team Brazil taking the time to give us a little more information about Axl's vision for GN'R, short term and long term, because uncertainty fuels frustration.

You know what.... it has been pretty much the same set list for a while..... and to a lot of people.... it isnt GNR.... thats their opinion... but just as annoying as those people saying it.... its equally annoying when people defend it till they are blue in the face .....

I think we should ALL move past that stuff by now..... like russ jsut said... people are just frustrated by the lack of production...especially when DVD's, CD 2 , documentaries seem to have so much trouble seeing the light of day

let's say  its true that Axl submitted an album in 2010 and it was rejected by the label or that the label is not allowing the DVD release.....

wouldn't it be beneficial to this guy Fernando or whoever to state that?

wouldn't the "community" as a whole be a little more understanding ? i dont know... just a thought i had

There's no need to go so low.

It would take Axl all of 5 minutes of his life to give us a quick shout out.  The goodwill that would do is not worth it?  Of course it is.  

The frustrating thing about Axl is the perception he could not be bothered.  And before you tell me "I have no idea if that's true"...THAT'S THE POINT.  No one ever has any idea.  But I think we do tire of being lectured to and assured that Axl is super positive and very willing to talk to us (nevermind that he never does).

Is that unfair?

Noble thought.

It would work for some, most of whom are already aware of these things.  :)
Others would just post the same old "it's just excuses, _____ (insert artist) manages to release albums".






True, but you didn't see his original post.....  :)






Is it really that simple?

That some fans just need reaffirmation from Axl?

I think certain people only want a number of things from Axl. One of them is a release date. Unless it's tentative!




/jarmo

Jarmo -

I think people (myself included, to be totally upfront) get frustrated with you because you won't ever even concede that other side might have a point from time to time.

Does Axl "owe" me or anyone an answer to anything?  Of course not.  But the question is...what is preferable?  Is it silence that leads to resentment and anger?  Or does taking a quick few minutes to speak to us more than once every 4 years a good thing, or a bad thing?  Which is the smarter play?

And while I have your ear, question I have had for years.  Axl constantly laments how untruths are printed, right?  Legit beef, I would agree.  Well, if he doesn't take the time to set things straight, isn't that his own fault?  Or at the least, if he chooses not to clarify, doesn't he have to live with the perception?

How mad can you get when you don't lift a finger to correct the record?

Yes, I did, there was no big deal.
Anyway, whatever...

People will always complain...about everything! I don't post very often and when i do i tend not to elaborate much simply because we're just like every other message board out there...weather it's a mb about gnr or about a tv show, there is always people who nitpick everything, i mean everyone has they're own opinion and they're entitled to it but some people just see things in a really fucked up way, others they just like to hate.

Now...why hate team brazil ? Beta was a maid (we get it, the jokes can stop now) but she stuck with Axl for more than 20 years and cares about him, her family cares about him, imho the only reason we may think they're not qualified to be gnr's managers is not because of the lack of experience but maybe because of they're relationship with him (and this is only my opinion, im sorry if im way off), they will never push him into making things he doesnt want too or pushing him to do things quicker or maybe they will push him BUT not as some greedy manager would.

This is the only downside i can think off, because 20 years of watching other managers and dealing with axl is enough experience to take care of the band, now again imho i think that what TB really care about is knowing that axl's happy, sure we fans want music and think that a band's job is to make music and yada yada yada, i can relate to that, i as much as any other fan would like to see axl shutting up everyone that says gnr sucks nowadays and release more music BUT axl is an artist, and a band isnt something you apply to and then when you do get the job you have obligations...NO!

A band imo is a group of people unleashing they're creativity upon the world...how many painters take several years before they paint again or any other artist? Do people really prefer if axl released a shitty money grabbing record every 2 or 3 years with the same old crap like a lot of bands do ? I sure as hell don't, if axl is happy touring and living his life and hasnt reached to a point where he woke up and thought "i need to get to a studio" or "i need to release *insert name of the song* now" then we have no right to go around offending everyone because we think we're entitled to this or that or whatever, bullshit! We're entitled to appreciate what axl releases when he decided to release it! that's the only thing as fans were entitled too...

So to continue my point, if axl is happy then TB isnt going to push him into doing things he doesnt want too...that's what a big greedy manager like i previously said would do but not TB because they're his family and they work for him not for us, this is my opinion on how things work, the only reason tb took over was because they were fucking tired of watching they're friend,brother,son, whatever being fucked in the ass by every big man on the business, they took over and they deal with things but they're purpose is being a sort of "extension" of axl, they represent him and when he wants to tour they arrange it, when he wants an album or interview or a hotdog they arrange it...get my point ?

But now haters say "but we are paying they're salary"...BULLSHIT!

Everytime we pay for something we're "buying" something, if we buy a ticket we get a show, if we  buy an album we get ...an album?! and if we buy a tshirt we get a fucking tshirt! Unless tb has been charging fans a monthly fee to fund the next album , in that case im sorry i didnt get the memo. So like i was saying, were not entitled to anything except what we pay for.

TB has accomplished a lot in a couple of years, sure plans change, things get cancelled and i as any other fan would like to know why BUT im not going to insult them for it, this is gonna be pointless but people do like axl and go out and live your life, when the next album comes you will know about it! Stop the abuse and the hate...how many bands as big as gnr are as reachable ? bbf, fernando, pitman...etc...they all talk to the fans and what do they get in return ? stupid insults.
People forget about the good things and tend to nitpick,criticize,hate everything.

Smoke some kush while listening to chinese democracy, enjoy it and enjoy life, you'll see that new music will come faster than you expected.

Sorry to cause you frustration because I don't think things are always as simple as some people post on the Internet.




Glad you see the "owing" point.

But, on the other hand, there's nothing that fixes everything. That's my opinion.

For some fans a "Hi, we don't have any news at the moment, but as soon as we do, we'll let you know" is enough. I get that. On the other hand, you have a minority that won't be happy with that. Then you have people who really don't care if there's no updates about "nothing".

Myself, as you might know, I'm in the last category. I grew up in a time before the Internet was widely used. So I didn't get updates from my favorite bands. This is true for many fans.


Now some might say, but we have the Internet, use it. Yes we do! But why can't they respect the fact that not everybody is alike? Some are very open about their lives, others are more private. There's no right or wrong, no matter what you prefer. In my opinion.





There's been plenty of cases where he has commented on things.
What has the reaction been like?





The post I removed with the insults?



/jarmo

All the GNR community (well most of us) are looking for is a little transparency.

Fans: Is the Vegas dvd coming

GNR camp: Yes or no, because

Fans: Is a new album coming

GNR: Not any time soon (for example)

Well, what is that supposed to mean? 

He can't ever communicate because it doesn't always go swimmingly and there some idiots out there still butthurt Slash left 17 years ago?  As you said (and I agree) those people are lost causes.  Never going to be happy.  Hell with 'em.

Still doesn't make his decision to maintain radio silence all the damn time a smart one.  At the end of the day, we are still lifelong fans that want to see things go smoother and better for the whole operation. 

It means what it says.  ;)  :hihi:




I didn't say that.

I was just wondering if you remember all the support and love all those times Axl talked about something that was on his mind.

I don't know about you, but sometimes it's easy to forget that Axl is just being himself. Yes I know, you can accuse me of being annoying or whatever for saying that, but to me, that's the constant through all these years of being a fan.

I remember when he wasn't doing a lot of interviews.
Now he's done a bunch. Which is awesome. But it's not enough for some.




I don't know what the reason(s) are. I just don't blame him for not wanting to do something unless he's comfortable doing it.

I mean if he doesn't want to tweet what he had for breakfast, he doesn't have to. A very extreme example, I know. But you get the point.

That's my opinion, and if it frustrates you and others, sorry.  :)


A bunch of my favorite artists don't post updates, tweets etc.. Some of them barely say anything other than "Thank you" at shows.  ;D



/jarmo

Guys I have been going through a rough time in my life which includes going to marriage counseling.  I walked in there thinking everything was my spouse's fault.  Turns out that wasn't always the case.  It also wasn't so much that we had conflict - it was how we dealt with it.  The process.  I think that comes into play here. 

There are some really terrible posters in the GNR community.  Their are posts are usually laced with profanity and hatred.  Forget them.   What I would suggest is Fernando communicating with some of the reasonable fans who have some suggestions they would like to see implemented.  People that will give honest,  sincere feedback.  On the flip side, I think the people who run these GNR forums need to demand better posting.  In addition posters need to improve their tone and stop saying things they don't really mean.  The "big" forum has some really terrible posters.  Quantity doesn't equal quality.   I also think the band should have a bigger presence here and perhaps at thegnrforum to change the direction of the forum community.  A shift to places that have polite loyal fans.  We need a change.  The current community has become toxic.  Not here - but we all know the place I refer to. 

Wow, am completely speechless how this has dragged out.

People, it'll all be ok. 

GNR related news will soon be available.  If that's too long, sorry.

Thanks.

(If I go and answer or give my personal views; I am unprofessional.  If I don't give my views; I am a heartless prick.)  Take that as you will, as you certainly already have.

On a PERSONAL unrelated GNR topic, ADz does suck.

It's not too long as long as it involves a 3D bluray  ;D

that's ok to me, take your time to give us some news, but only good ones please  : ok:

The recent tone of discussion is indeed miserable. However, sorry but it feels silly to go on "who started it first".

The bottom line is that many people, and I'm sure in this camp, believe the best might have yet to come from Axl. It's also just natural to want more of what you enjoyed. It was quite an experience to hear Chinese Democracy on the day of its release at home from the first to last song. It was 15 years of patiently waiting and reading any kind of short press updates especially during the late '90. It would be nice to think we could soon hear more of the Chinese Democracy recording session.

At some points we had the Chinese Democracy re-release rumours. During 2013 it was also about the DVD/Blue-ray which has not got a release date. Even the Chinese Democracy follow up sounded like something not too far from ready even back in the Axl forum chats back in 2008. Now band members speak about composing new songs. Well, there is maybe 10-20 already existing songs I'd like to hear before that. ;-)

Maybe a better approach could be to contact straight the record label. Back in the '90 the Geffen publicist was even updating MTV on the progress of the new album that became Chinese Democracy. Assuming that all recordings, mixing and mastering are either complete or well under way by the band, it would be easy to assume the label is somehow holding things. Or at very least to dragging it beyond everyone patience. We sure haven't heard any statement from the label following Chinese Democracy.

This is going to be epic.

i have met and get along with many members of the GNR crew, some band members and some staff. Jarmo and Fernando included.

i find it amusing that all of the people who spew hate on the boards are usually the same ones who try to suck up and ask for hand outs when/if they go to live shows.

perfect world, everyone who goes to a GNR gig would be forced to wear a tag around their neck with their handle. It's so easy when you dont have to be accountable for the persona you have created for yourself online.

 Name and shame.

ive met the band a bunch of times and recognised a few online people but they are always pro-gnr online.

I'm more of the shy, reserved type in person... As much as I would love to name and shame I couldnt handle the potential fallout lol. It's a shame that the loudest voices, good or bad, are the ones that seem to get heard.

We love you Fernando! Just adopt the Bitty Ted Of Gisborne philosophy. Hot people like me. Those who don't are well... not worthy of me! :hihi:

OK, but what percentage of people are we talking about here?

You are talking about the niche of a niche at this point, no?  Not just online posters, but online posters who want backstage passes, and may or may not have been cheery posters?  What sort of numbers are those?  Gotta be slim.

The vast, vast majority of us aren't after backstage passes.  We are just wondering why its like pulling teeth to get any updates here.

Imagine for a moment, Axl decided he was not near ready for a new album, but here's 3 new tracks.  Here you go.  Be back soon.  Give us some time.

Think how that would go over.  Especially considering its rather unprecedented for this current operation.

i was merely musing... i wasnt trying to get nitty gritty

Imagine for a moment that Axl and Guns N' Roses are under contract to a label and may not be able to just drop three new tracks out of nowhere without label approval.

There's so many variables with releasing music when you've got contracts in place.

I really don't get the impatience - the band was touring up until July. Don't they deserve some time off? Let Tommy do the 'Mats shows (I saw them last night) to help out Slim. Let Dizzy and Richard do the Dead Daisies. I just don't see why everyone needs an immediate update the second they stop touring.

To be honest, I dont like at all the protagonism this ''team brazil'' thing is taking nowadays. I dont like this new era of GNR fans that think they need to worship the whole lebeis family, the guy who admins the website, the guy who gives the free passes, Ashba's girlfriend and all that kind of stuff that looks ''low'' to my eyes, at least for a megaband like GNR. I try to find analogies with other big acts and I fail. Fernando's responses here could have been cool in another context of the past, for example, back in 2006 when he was merely the son of Axl's assistant. But now, as someone said here (Soul Mounster, if im not wrong), he's management. You may like the idea (i, personally, find it scary... and nothing against him or the Lebeis family, but I think managing a megaband like Guns is a major task and should be done by major professionals... but hey! this is not my choice, just my 2 cents) or not, but that's how things are now and we have to accept them.

One thing that amazes me is the fact that being in the 21st century and having LOTS of (free) communication technologies such as facebook, twitter, instagram, mailing lists, etc doesn't guarantee AT ALL a better communication, and GNR is the most perfect example of that. The band has now a twitter, a facebook, instagram, official website, backplane and even the manager himself comes to the boards to talk to some trolls with lots of free times... but yet effective communications is absent. GNR was ''silent'' from 2001 to 2007. Now GNR is probably one of the most talkative/via-internet bands in the world, but we still experience the same fuc*ing problems of the 2001-2007 era. But the bad thing is the ''mistery'' aura that (possitively) surrounded the band back then (from day zero, to be more precise, not only 2001-2007) is lost now.

I, myself, dont expect anything from this band anymore. If they come to southamerica I will attend all shows as I always did, and I will keep buying every single thing they release. But I will not spend the dead times between ''news'' with this kind of gossip and worshipping people that is not GNR. Ozzy's personal assistant Tony Dennis is a very important part of his life but he's not Black Sabbath.

Regarding ''Going Down'', I think it's a fabulous song, and gives me lots of optimism for the future. I would die to hear more new songs :)

Does it ever strike you odd that everything is always so allegedly complicated and supposedly impossible to get done?  Things every other band in the world seems to do all the time?  Release music, tour, promote their own work?  Why is it so different for GNR?

I do understand your overall point.  But let's be real here.  Axl proposes a quick EP type thing to tide people over, the label says no?  Fuck you, Axl?  Does that seem logical?

As for your other point about what to expect, here's one.  I'll start getting encouraged when the others are asked about an album and they stop responding with laughter.  Or can talk about time there were all in the studio together, ever.  Is this a huge ask?

Was there not a pretty strong rumour a while back that the label had rejected an album? I don't recall what became of that rumour but honestly, not every other band drops tracks left right and centre. The NIN and Radioheads of the world do, the Pumpkins were able to (then went back to major label support for Oceania), but that's not to say Guns has the same freedom they do. We aren't privy to the details of whatever contract(s) is/are in place and what is in place may be left over from the 90s and far stricter than what's around today. Who knows.

Again, they just finished touring. It has been a matter of weeks and people are upset that they're not laying down tracks. I've waited longer for a new Tool album than a new Guns album right now, it's not like this is the only band slow to put out material.

ANY. I mean it. And I believe this applies to 99,99% of the fans, including MyGNR.

Well, just something that at least resembles a straight answer.  Don't need to hear the album drops in 90 days, but at least somewhat stick to the point.

Not the usual vague Axlspeak about nefarious forces at work and the ongoing daily struggle against oppression and subjugation.  That might all sound important, but when the question was "so, how you been?", its a bit much.

Esteban, nobody's talking about worship as you put it. I don't really care what people think of me. Thinking back to 1996, I don't remember starting this site to get people to worship me.

Your comments about professional this or that, what gave you the impression that those so called professionals did such an excellent perfect job in the past? Obviously it wasn't perfect since there were multiple people who came and went.

Maybe the issue is based on something else and not the so called professionalism?


I also don't necessarily understand why some always feel targeted when somebody responds to something. It might be something Axl says, it might be something Fernando says. It might be a response to one individual, but suddenly you have a group of people being upset and yelling "unprofessional!".


When Axl called the Internet a big garbage can, do you think he also meant savethechildren.org? How about F1.com?

It seems like some are quick to be "part of a group" and get upset over something, even when a comment is aimed at one individual. Yet on other occasions it's "every man for themselves".




So "maybe", "I don't know" etc. is fine?

He answered a question about new music earlier this year:

Cameron Adams: Can we expect new music from GN'R in 2013 by chance?
Axl: I can give you a definite maybe.





/jarmo

That was one of the five questions.

Has anyone considered that maybe the band really isn't sure and don't want to say anything right now?

They flat out said they don't have any current news and will tell the fans when there is something to announce... and people flipped their shit. Why? You'll get news when there's news, why ask for dates that aren't firm/may change anyway?

I swear Guns has the most frustrating fanbase I've ever seen.

Do you think you would get a different answer now, compared to earlier this year? And if you didn't, would you feel let down?



You take it upon yourself to compile questions, then you send them to people around Axl hoping for a response. When there's no response, some seemed to get upset.
Even if there was a response, chances are the answers might be something you already know?

If you're told something you already know, is that fine or would you feel let down because you didn't get an answer that offered you something new?

I'm just curious. That's all.




I agree with that.






/jarmo

To play devil's advocate for a moment, think of a few of your other favorite bands.

Where would you rank GNR's relationship and/or respect for their fanbase versus the others?  Guns N' Roses is my favorite band ever and always will be.  They also finish behind every other favorite band I have ever had from any era in regards to how they treat their fans.

What I'm getting at is, we aren't exactly treated like gold.  When the band's attitude is more of a "you'll get what you get when you get it, its never enough for you people"...its going to buy you less leeway and goodwill, no?  It also is totally dishonest, because it implies we are given a great deal and are never satisfied.  We are given table scraps and are supposed to think its manna from heaven.

What gives you the impression GN'R doesn't respect their fans?

I don't think respecting fans equals putting out products to sell.




/jarmo

its very much a damned if you do, damned if you dont situation. I think if fans pushed any band this hard they would retreat into their shell a little bit. Try demanding an album or questions answered or updates from the Rolling Stones or U2. I doubt any of their band members would ever reply to you individually (as some GNR members do) and good luck even trying to contact their management team without going through an insufferable web.

We may not get all the music we want, but we are pretty lucky in a lot of ways  :)

What other band treats their fans like this?

Its get back to what I was saying earlier.  You cut off all communication, sometimes for YEARS at a time...you really can't bitch when people get antsy.

We waited for this album for an eon.  It comes out, Axl goes MIA for over a solid year.  Who does that?  That's a natural thing?  To work on something all that time, do precisely zero promotion outside a few unfocused chats on some random message boards, and that's normal?  And WE become the bad guys when we ask what that's about?

You do precisely zero interviews outside some pre-arranged thing with a handpicked guy like Del?  You have no major announcement for your tour, you do zero promotion in any town you are in, and that's all just business as usual?  Where?  The Bizarro Homeworld?

Like what? Plays over 200 shows in less than four years?




What are we talking about now? It's August 2013. The band played their last shows last month.

It's not 2005!



So you still think that's not respecting your fans? By not promoting the album and instead talking directly to the fans? That's disrespecting your fans?




You had Axl on That Metal Show, you had Axl on Jimmy Kimmel.....  

Axl wasn't doing a lot of interviews back i the day either. And when he did, he did it with... You guessed it, Del!




/jarmo

What is it...good?

You work 10 plus years on an album.  It comes out, you disappear.  No other major act does this, Jarmo.  None.

The only "press" you do is a pre-arranged interview with pre-approved questions.  And a bunch of rambling chants online, very little of which has to do with the new material, the current band, any of it.  That's who got fucked on this the worst.  How would you like to put all this time and effort into a project that looked like it may never see the light of day, only to have it actually come out...and your captain goes off the reservation?  Or have him only want to talk about the growing more ever distant past?

You tour all over the world, mostly in secret.  No press, no announcement, no local promotion.  Its up to diehards on message boards to stay informed?  No major act does this, Jarmo.

And that is your response?  "Hey, he did sit down with Jimmy Kimmel 4 years later, stop your bitching?"  Are you serious right now? 

there was plenty of promotion here in Australia when they toured in March, ads in the paper, all over the radio, television commercials, billboards... It was in no way a secret tour. It was also advertised with VIP packages on gunsnroses.com

the tour promotion etc is more for the promoter to handle than GNR... they are the one who needs to sell tickets to the show.

Well, you did a damn sight better than we did Stateside, I can tell you that.

I guess I'm just gunning to go back to stealing James Hetfield's mail.

What does it matter how much they promote a concert?   Do you dump thousands of dollars in ads, when the show is selling well regardless.  

Fernando if you are still reading this please tell Bumblefoot and Axl my son Jim says "hi" and we hope GNR resumes their tour soon in the USA!  

David Bowie released an album earlier this year. Is he on tour? Doing interviews?

Maybe he is. Things just seemed kinda quiet around him. If he is, I'll have to think of somebody else. He was the first one that popped into my mind.



So you moved on from the band not respecting their fans to Axl not promoting his band enough?




No local promotion? Are you talking out of personal experience?

Here's my personal experience. I've walked around cities where GN'R has played, seen posters, billboards, flyers and so on. I've seen newspaper interviews with band members. I've seen band members be interviewed on radio and TV.

I guess me being there and seeing it doesn't count?




My response to you being upset about the album's release in 2008 in the year 2013 and how it relates to the band not respecting their fans?




/jarmo

I give up, Jarmo.  Everything is fuckin' cream cheese, I guess.

Other fanbases should clearly envy our situation, because its all champagne wishes and caviar dreams here in GNR land.  We are truly blessed.

If he replied the same I would still feel glad that he replied. Yeah, there are chances of him answering somethin we already know in some of the questions, we were aware of that when we voted the questions.

When did Axl fire off that open letter?  2007?

As I recall, it didn't promise anything or guarantee anything.  But he at least took a moment to say, hey, things got fucked up, and we'll sort it out.  Even as pissed and "done with this band" people were by that point, they all got sucked back in.  It was smart.

It was also breathtaking in its rarirty.  Its like Axl got his P.R. savvy from the mafia.

You made a point of saying the band doesn't respect their fans. I ask for examples.

Your only examples are the lack of promotion from 2008. You ask for examples of other artists doing something similar, I give you an example.

What do you expect? Don't ask a question if you don't want an answer....


Here's an interview with David Bowie from this year: http://consequenceofsound.net/2013/04/david-bowie-gives-first-interview-about-the-next-day-it-contains-42-words/
Enjoy!





That one was in 2006.





/jarmo

Why is Axl so reclusive, I understand his right to privacy but BBF has a facebook page where he either answers questions (not related to new music) or even 'likes' a post put on which is exciting to know he has acknowledged you.  : ok:

It doesn't mean he'd have to be on it every day or every week like BBF, he doesn't have to post long long posts but if he can be on stage & tell a funny story (like Easter Island) then that would be enough to satisfy those of use who aren't dying to hear new music.  ;D

Any abusive or rude posts put on can be removed swiftly, most of us that like Axl don't want to be bothered reading the negative stuff anyway. Just a little communication here and there would keep us happy (well some of us).

The ones who want to bitch about gnr can come here or if they're the extreme type can go onto another forum online. The silence from him is deafening & we'd love some new pics if anyone has some to share.

is that a promise? or just another idle threat?

more ppl should heed your advice. give up and move on. all good things in all good time. why argue about something over which you have absolutely zero control? you will grow old and miserable before your time.

enjoy what you have today. tomorrow may never come.

otherwise, having said that, i do enjoy reading through these boards from time to time. such vitriol and dysfunction is often amusing. albeit in small doses. don't know how some can do it day after day year after year.

A little heavy handed, no?  We are talking about a rock band here.  Not exactly solving the world's problems.

i dunno, man. it's all good, i guess. i just stop in from time to time and have a look around, and often all i see are a bunch of snitfits and tantrums.

and all for naught. carry on.

The 'housekeeper' posts are getting old but it continues. I spoke to Beta about her job in Brazil and she was more than happy to tell me what she did & who she worked for. As I did the same type of work but not as high up as her it was interesting & I would have loved to know more but there were other people wanting to speak to her so I stood aside.

You're totally right, nothing wrong with being a housekeeper same as there's nothing wrong with being a housewife.  She didn't go from housekeeper to managing a band, she already had the skills of management (and keeping a group of men in line)  :rofl:

I was surprised at how friendly Fernando & Vanessa were, having photos taken every night with people they don't know must be a pain. BBF was great fun, I really don't get the hate & why people even bother to post if thats how they feel. The concert & meeting the band was a real lift I needed & Axl stopping the car to say hello to us when he was leaving finished off a great night with some great people I met.

Not wanting to do interviews is being reclusive?

Yes, it REALLY is that simple. Axl letting us know what the deal is with the band would REALLY silence a lot of the criticism. And yes, it wouldn't silence every criticism, like from those who demand a release data, but that is pure strawman argumentation from your side. We are not talking about what the band can do to shut up the haters, we are talking about what the band can do to appear slightly less dysfunctional and remove some of the basis for the growing frustration.

Well, MY problem with the communication issue is more of a matter of realizing how many people the GNR social media reaches and what message you pass whenever you post something on it.

You see, the facebook page just hit the 24 million likes landmark. That is a fucking lot of people! So when this official outlet, one that reaches to over 20 million people, posts that "at this time we have no information on tours, albums, or DVDs", in my head, a lot of those people (who has nothing to do with message boards in its majority) can think something like "What the F* is this? Don't they have a plan or anything? What is this band about nowadays?" and then create a negative image somehow - and I wouldn't blame a person who reaches the conclusion the band is clueless or lacking of interest considering only a post like that. This is a lot more harmful to the band's image than message boards trolls.

I don't expect Fernando, Beta or whoever to come over and say "Guys, we know you want new music and we're negotiating a thanksgiving release. #FingerCrossed" because things can change and then Saint Patrick's day comes and there's no album - and guess who will be blamed for it? We've seen this before.

I just think the communication has to find the line between not giving people unrealistic hopes and don't let people clueless.

Speaking for myself I would like to know what gets in the way of the band releasing new music...if they are under a nasty contract, if the record company doesn't want to invest on the project, if there is a way for the band to go independent by buying their way out (like joss stone did), if the band is even interested in going independent...I would like to know these things out of curiosity only, to try to understand this crazy GNR world. But I know it's not of my business and whenever they are supposed to put something out, they will.

But one thing is for sure: we can't say the band is keeping us in the dark. In '04 we didn't even know who was in the band! If there are things the band doesn't talk about these days is because we don't have to know them now.

I agree completely, and I, for one, really appreciated Fernando's tweet earlier where he said we would be informed when they had actual plans. I think that tweet was professional and to the point.
 
My worry, on the other hand, is that the band is doing itself a huge disservice by not giving any clues as to what they HOPE to do. What is the vision for the band now? What happened to Axl's twin album? The three consecutive releases every second year? We all know things didn't work out as planned, and that's okay, things rarely do, especially in the world of GN'R (and having been a fan since 1988 I don't expect them to, either), but this silence after plans have failed creates a vacuum and vague statements like "definite maybe" does nothing to allay our fears that the band has lost its drive and is no longer a creative entity, or, perhaps even worse, that the band itself has no idea what they want to do. We fill this communication vacuum with all kinds of silly expectations, lies and myths, and this does nothing to keep the fan base content nor make a harmonic relationship between band/management and fan base.

We are passionate fans with a strong love for the music. I can't help but think that more transparency would do wonders in making us more excited to be fans of Guns N' Roses, and would result in fan base and management/band working on the same side for once, towards the same common goal. We are an untapped resource to the band. We are not your enemies. Help us understand what is going on, treat us as a resource, make us excited again, and we will do our best at creating buzz for the future of GN'R.

Bit of a lurker, but I thought I'd make a few points..

Team Brazil has done a hell of a lot of good things. We've had a consistently active band, lots of shows, live streams, Facebook, Twitter, Paradise City, better website, Nightrain (I don't think it's gone to plan as of yet, but at least there is an effort to do something), interviews with Axl.

I think the professionalism point may have some value but he's the real problem..

In just under 20 years, we have had 15 original Gn'R songs, 0 music videos, 0 concert DVDs. Think about that. What's the main thing fans want? Music to listen to! We love the tours, we always go, we buy the merch. But the lack of music is what frustrates us. Kiss get constantly accused of touring on the back catalog, but even they have released more. Axl's not going to be able to sing like he does forever. We know there's loads of stuff already recorded. Why are Gn'R not making up for lost time? Did they spend all this time recording all this music to bury in a vault never to be heard? Will we get it when Axl's in his 60's and can't preform the stuff live? In the words of Axl "All I needed was clarity..And someone to tell me what the FUCK IS GOING ON!" haha

Now, this lack of output isn't Team Brazil's fault. They weren't management for almost all of that time period. It might be Axl's, it might be the record company's, but lets all remember that it's not Team Brazil's.

This has exploded the way it has because it's not really unreasonable for us to say "hey, any chance of a album update?" And to hear "complaints, complaints, complaints" is going to make people react a bit negatively. To be fair to Beta, when she said that I think some other guy posting on there (not Manets) was being a bit of a douche. And I think that's where the PR points do have some validity. However, if we'd seen Guns drop albums in '02, '06 and '08..There wouldn't have been this kind of reaction over this..Regardless of how professional or unprofessional it might be.

Fernando, if you're still reading this, thanks from me for all the good things that you guys have done so far! Things are so much better than the years of nothingness. And I really hope something good can come from all of this nonsense. There will always be trolls and haters, but the rest of us just want good things for Gn'R. We just do it in varying levels of stupidity ;)

The band has learned with chinese democracy, they won't promise things that aren't concrete...no "we'll be back next year with a bunch of new songs" this time.

This band has fans that waited for new music for 15 years, nothing they'll ever do will be enough because people will always want more, we have a talkative band...hell we have the band's manager here talking with us, we have bumble and a few other members, regular updates and shows. They will say something about new music when there's something to say.

Sure the band could explain a few things or talk about the possibility of releasing old unheard songs until we get a new album BUT we shouldnt complaint that they don't...let's wait.

I agree that we shouldn't complain, we get what we are given. But I don't see the harm in trying, so long as it is in the RIGHT way.


Fernando seems to agree here, lets not dismiss this completely. This is actually huge. IF we can get better communication as to the bands plans, it can only be a good thing. If not, no harm done. Just little snippets like:

"We are currently in the process of negotiating with the label for the DVD release. There are some issues to be resolved but we're working as hard as we can to get it to you. In the meantime, thanks for your patience."

Or..

"We're busy with our tour schedule currently, but we hope to hit the studio later this year."

Those are examples of course, but something so simple could be such a huge thing. We have no right to complain if fans don't get what Metallica (for example) get, but wouldn't it great to have Guns talked about in the same vein?

A lot of the "negativity" surrounding GN'R comes down to the success they had in their heyday, and the expectations it would continue.
Going from 5 releases in 6 years, taking the world by storm, in the same conversation as rock gods like the Rolling Stones and then to have that all flushed down the toilet, in the middle of what many considered their prime was a bit hard to swallow for many GN'R fans.

Then you take into account the (right or wrong) perception that Axl was the odd man out, the one guy who couldn't go along to get along, as evidenced by ex-member accounts, the Project, VR etc, and people wanted to believe that Axl must have had some big plans, vision, if he was really serious about continuing on with the GN'R moniker without the other members responsible for it's success.

Flash forward 20 years, and only one album has been released, and the latest update from the band is that there is no update. Surely this could not have been Axl's vision of GN'R, unless he has a very warped sense of humor.

Granted life doesn't often go according to plan, but GN'R has trended downward over the last 20 years, rebounded with it's lone release, and since become stagnant.
Sure there have been plenty of positive moments along the way, but it's not hard to see why many fans would find the trajectory of GN'Rs career post UYI disappointing.

Axl trudged on with the heavy GN'R name, and unfortunately as a result many of his fans haven't been able to let go of the expectations that come along with it.
Interest is there, which I guess is a blessing and a curse depending on how you look at it.

I myself separated this incarnation long ago from the era of Guns I grew up on. I believe this is the cure all. My expectations of this incarnation are I have no expectations.
If anythings ever released, and I enjoy it, fantastic. In the meantime, I'll periodically check for updates, and follow the countless projects of the very much active ex-members.

A shut mouth catches no flies... we are Going Down!  :hihi:

Some fans have the "squeaky wheel" attitude I guess, they think that bitching and complaining pushes artists into going back to work.

Maybe now that there have been steps taken to discourage people from getting music for free the past couple of years, GNR might finally feel it's time to put new music out in the next few years. A lot of people have no idea how discouraging it was for musicians to put music out for the past decade.  Record companies are to blame because they took way too long to catch up with technology, and they were set in their ways of "doing business".

I would rather know it was finished and coming out in 2 weeks, and not hear about them working on it, because that's just going to lead to more complaints.

Maybe Axl's had it finished for a while and didn't want to discuss it with the band in case they let it slip, and didn't want more leaks getting out.

As far as I can tell, the frustration is only about one simple thing.
People want new music. They need to know the when's, how's, who's and the where's. Maybe there's some kind of feeling of entitlement. "I've been a fan for __ years, I've supported the band, I spent $____ on GN'R" so they feel they deserve an album for their investments.

I didn't know wanting to hear new music has to be such an active thing. That you have to complain about the waiting on a daily/weekly basis. I don't know, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we all go through this same frustration phase once before? And did we learn anything from it? Did all those years of "frustrated waiting" really help?

I'm sorry that our favorite band doesn't fit the needs or the schedules of those who are frustrated.




/jarmo

It's not so much (at least to me) to want to know the when's, how's, who's and the where's, but rather IF new music is in the band's future, or whether the direction is to tour and play the hits.  It seems that the message thus far has been intentionally vague, which leaves people to wonder.

And I certainly don't think I'm an entitled fan that can demand to know, but at the same time I don't want to be patronized or scolded for wanting to know.  The level of communication from band members and management has been disjointed at best, with (deleted) tweets and conflicting interviews.  Some form of consistent message would be good.

Labling everyone that asks questions about the furture of the band as complainers and entitled fans is not the way to go.  It's a cop-out (again, in my opinion) to hide behind the "can't please everyone" mantra. 

I am sure there is a sense of entitlement for some fans. But that is not what I am talking about at all.


The big difference between the years leading up to the release of CD and the years following is that before the release Axl seemed excited about the future. He talked about the songs, he talked about his release schedule, he talked about what he wanted to achieve, he created a buzz about the future through his own excitement. After the release of CD (and his chat with fans on the forums) his typical response would be, "we want to tour CD for some time", "we'll see what the deal with the label is" and "definite maybe". I am sure you are not oblivious to this marked difference in Axl in regards to the future.

And although this doesn't AT ALL gives us an entitlement to hear from him, nor is he in any way obliged to share anything with us at all, it is very obvious to me that the band would benefit from sharing more with us. They don't have to, we can't demand it, but they should. It makes sense business-wise because -- given that the band actually has some plans of future releases -- it kills all speculation that the band has stopped being a creating entity and it gives us fans a reason to be excited again. And when the hardcores are excited we tend to talk to the casual fans, we talk to our friends about our band, we write passionate comments on Blabbermouth, we create a buzz, a talking point, we help define what is relevant and important in music culture. Basically, we would be a resource.

Very well said. Could not agree more....the interesest/passioante fan base has been a double edge sword considering that Axl alone is and has been responsible for keeping it going ... thats the way he wanted it

The big difference between the years leading up to the release of CD and the years following is that before the release Axl seemed excited about the future. He talked about the songs, he talked about his release schedule, he talked about what he wanted to achieve, he created a buzz about the future through his own excitement. After the release of CD (and his chat with fans on the forums) his typical response would be, "we want to tour CD for some time", "we'll see what the deal with the label is" and "definite maybe". I am sure you are not oblivious to this marked difference in Axl in regards to the future.

[/quote]

You're exactly right.  I watched RIR 2001 the other day (can't believe that was 12 years ago) and there was definitely a buzz and excitement about it, some of it had to do with Axl's presence and demeanor, which was upbeat, positive, and forward thinking ("we'll be back next year with a whole bunch of new songs") and some of it had to do with hearing new music (SOD, Silkworms, Madagascar, OMG, etc.).  Plus, the footage at the end when Beta comes on stage is truly heartwarming and genuine.  She and others clearly helped him, and for that we should all be eternally grateful. 

I think people want to get back to that level of excitement, or better understand why that's gone.

Let's face the quite obvious thing here: maybe they just aren't in a hurry to release anything new soon (even many of us fans would LOVE to hear new GNR music, and the band knows it)? At least that's the feeling I get when I am listening this new interview with Pitman: http://www.radiorock.fi/?vt=video&vid=347733

Direct quote from him, and I think this tells a lot about the situation with GN'R nowadays: "Just like Guns. We don't care, you know? We'll go out and play songs that people know, but we're not knocking ourselves out to release new music. There's no need to, now. It's not the time or place."

So there you have it, maybe it's just the band itself thats in the way of releasing new music. I don't have high hopes for next year, maybe around 2015-2016 we'll have something new out (even a live DVD or album maybe?). But it clearly seems like the band isn't having too much stress about the release of the next album (some of the guys like Chris are working on their own projects at the moment etc, these are clear signs that the band isn't working on anything new at the moment, well maybe Axl is but that's pretty much it).

Fair enough.

You list many examples of things said that you say created excitement.

But you fail to mention anything else. Like what would make somebody be more cautious?
I don't know about you, but if you spent a number of years working on an album, hearing some of your fans being frustrated and saying things like "all we need is an album". Then once its out people starting to ask about the next one within a year while you're still touring the world....


How can you mention the chats and use that as an example of him not talking about future releases? He mentions specific song titles.



Remember all those people saying Chinese Democracy would never come out? I do.
The same exact thing is happening now and people are fine with it.

Like I said, didn't we learn anything in the past. Band members talked and it was labeled as lies. We had to explain to the frustrated fans that tentative doesn't mean it was a guarantee or a promise.
Now we have these same people, or same kind of people, saying there's no new music, nothing is ever gonna come out and whining about having an active band playing shows.

There's no easy solution to make everybody happy. Acting like there is, is just naive. Yet I'm the one who's supposed to live in a bubble. Ironic.

Chinese Democracy came out, and it was supposed to be this happy time where everybody's got the album they needed for sooooo long. Immediately we had people looking for faults with it. Is that how you show happiness? I don't know. Seemed a bit weird way of enjoying the album you had needed.


There's a difference between "can't wait to hear the new GN'R album :D " and "can't wait anymore for the new GN'R album  :rant:  >:( "....

---

Edited to add:


So basically "the frustrated fans" want:

More communication. But only about concrete things, nothing tentative or something that might not happen as announced, because then they'll get more frustrated for being "lied to".

They want to now everything, but not too much because that would ruin the mystery.

They want the band to play lots of shows, but also record so there's new albums out within a time frame that suits them

Every show needs to be different, even though they might not attend any of them.

Axl needs to do more interviews, but only talk about future albums. And nothing too vague or tentative plans.


Is that about right?


/jarmo

The thing is, these days with Twitter, facebook etc, the band can use these to garner interest from the music press, who in turn create a stream of Gn'R news.  Now suppose, Axl decides that say on Halloween, he does a 24hour drip feed of new material, 24 new tracks, each and all as just 15 second segments, this would see website getting mental amounts of hits. They need to do something different, this is in my view one such scheme they could do to lead the way to create the excitement a music release deserves.

You would see the music world cream themselves on this gold, waiting for the next instalment to appear ... In turn the music label get their answer into how the band are being received. As Oscar Wilde said "There's one thing worst than being talked about, and that is not being talked about..." And sadly, although when they appear in an area where they are about to perform, they get exposure, there is very little beyond this, these days.

Axl's management told Gary Dell'abate, the producer of the Howard Stern show that he would do Howards show. Now that would have been a full hour and a half no commercial interview. That's the kind of interview that us fans would kill for. A shame it never happened.

Howard would never allow any of it to be pre-arranged too, otherwise he just wouldn't do it

But in regards to the Jimmy Kimmel show, all those interviews include usually a pre interview over the phone, where the guest is asked for stories they can bring up

Fine. But if that is the case here, that Axl is demotivated because of the lack of praise he has been getting, then THAT is exactly what I want them to communicate to us. It is much better for us to hear the truth, even if it isn't what we want to hear, then just having to sit on the side line watching the band seemingly lose focus and drive and just hear lacklustre responses from Axl whenever he talks about the future.


I was a bit unclear here, with pre-CD I meant the broad time period right after and before the release where Axl still seemed excited. The chats happened just when things started to shift.


Again, there is a difference here. Those that didn't believe in CD ever being released did so DESPITE the excitement of the band, despite Axl talking about his vision, despite the leaks. Those that don't believe in any future releases don't do that despite much at all, because Axl isn't out there creating a buzz about the future, because we haven't had any leaks that conclusively indicated a future release, and the band doesn't seem excited at all but mostly focused on side projects.

So again, there is a difference.


I hope you are not talking about me, now, because I have never claimed there is such an easy solution nor do I believe it exist. What I am talking about is to remove some of the foundation for many fans frustration: the uncertainty in regards to what Axl wants with CD now that his previous plans apparently have fallen through. I agree with you that this won't silence ALL criticism, but it will stem the trend I am currently observing where the more moderate fans, like myself, grow uneasy with what is happening with the band. We, and I am speaking for this middle block of fans, the moderates, will never demand anything, we don't feel we are owed anything, we will never retort to abuse towards the band or management, we will never do any silly thing, but we might stop caring. And the band shouldn't be indifferent to this rather large number of fans losing excitement.


Again, you are not talking about me or those I might happen to represent. I was thrilled when CD was released.


No, that is not how I see it at all. Communication of vague plans or communication of concrete plans (even if they fall through), is a lot better than no communication at all which just begs the conclusion that there are no plans at all. To maintain our excitement we need to know there are SOME plans. To maintain our interest we need to know the band is interested in the future, because if the band isn't, how can we be? We need to know Axl is still passionate about the future, because if not, we won't be either. They can disclose ridiculously detailed plans if they want to, or they can just say "we will tour for one more year and then we will try to release before 2015", or something like that...ALL of this would be better than "we'll wait and see", "not thinking about that now", or "definite maybe", because all of these last three responses suggests that Axl has lost his enthusiasm, and that is worst case scenario for everyone who loves the music that man creates.

Why is fans demanding new music from there favorite band a bad thing? I can't rap my head around the logic of this. The fact that you have such die hards who are interested in hearing new music from this lineup should be a great thing. Should fans be content with going to a show and hearing " the Hits"? And another thing i keep hearing posters speaking of negativity this negativity that. For a band that supposedly doesnt give two shits about anything they are very sensitive.

Praise? Who said anything about praise.

Do you honestly think Axl tweeting: "We want to release an album, we need to take care of a few things first" would make people happy?

It's just another case of certain people needed to be patted on their backs. If the band doesn't say "We love our fans", some start saying "they don't care about us".





Maybe he was focused on the tour. Is that bad?





Ok. So because in the past Axl talked about Chinese Democracy, you were excited. Now, you're not. Because he's not talking about the next album.
Once again, you assume talking is the answer...



No, talking in general.



Well some of us have the attitude that "when they got news, they'll tell us". It works quite well for some of us.




Maybe it's the Finnish in me, but I agree with how GN'R does things. If you don't have anything to say, don't say anything.
Communicating for the sake of communicating doesn't really do anything for me. That's just me.






According to Fernando, news is coming.  : ok:




Usually it's a positive thing. But in some cases, it's just this negative thing. People choose to make it that.



/jarmo

I can only speak for myself and I say unequivocally yes! I would be very happy to hear Axl say he wants to release more music again. Because right now it is not clear at all that he wants to. He doesn't seem excited about new music at all.


No, it has to do with the band demonstrating a desire to actually be creative and not just continue to tour. We are talking about the difference between becoming a nostalgia act and trying to remain relevant. You might dismiss this as "us wanted to be patted on the back", I believe you are grossly misrepresenting my point to make it easy to ridicule.


He obviously focused on the tour, and that isn't bad. But he also managed to both tour AND talk about the future in 2002 and 2006. Why is that different now? Again, this suggests a change in Axl that is disconcerting.


I am saying that the excitement surrounding the band among the fan base dwindles for each unenthusiastic comment from Axl. And yes, keeping our interest for GN'R requires that we believe the band wants to continue to create and release music, and if that is the case, then this is excellently conveyed through talking to us. So yes, talking IS the answer to allaying our fears. I am repeating myself, but the frustration grows from uncertainty, and this uncertainty can be dispelled through some proper communication.


And that is fine. The problem now sticks deeper, though, because it isn't about WHEN they will eventually announce a release data but IF they will announce a release data, which again stems from this seemingly shift in Axl's attitude towards the future. If Axl continued to talk about the future with the passion he used to have prior to CD, then we wouldn't really need a release date because we knew what his goal was, we knew he as interested in giving us more music, we knew he was out to demonstrate what a fantastic artist and musician he is.


It is not communication for the sake of communication. Doing public relations with the intent of telling the world that GN'R as a creative entity is alive and kicking and that we will have great music some time in the future, is basic PR 101 and not "empty communication without any purpose". The result is more excitement among the fans which will benefit the band in various ways as described earlier. But sure, if the goal of Axl is to see the excitement die out among the fans, an excitement he has spent years on creating, to see us become indifferent to what will happen with GN'R, then vague answers or non-communication do a perfect job. Because we remember how passionate Axl used to be, how excited he was about the future.


That's true. Looking forward to that :) I hope it is some news that actually tells us anything about what Axl's overall plans for GN'R are, and not "only" an announcement of some new shows.

Speaking for myself, I have to say I was absolutely thrilled when Chinese was released. I enjoyed, and still enjoy listening to the tracks on that disc. I'd go as far to say it is my favourite album of all time.

I am also very keen to hear new music from my favourite band. I'll admit that if that isn't goin to happen in the near future I would be stoked for Guns to tell us what their plans are, or that they are unable to release an album at this point because of X or Y.

Again, speaking on my own behalf, I think I am so keen to hear new stuff because we know that so much was recorded during the Chinese sessions. Admittedly we have no idea as to the state of completion of these other unreleased tracks, but I hope you can see my point.

At the end of the day, Guns music for me is something to get really excited about and I would love to get excited again about a new Guns release.

He hasn't said that, it's your impression.




I'm sorry, I don't buy it. To me, there's not only black or white.
Let me get this straight. The only way to not be a nostalgia act is to release music? Did I understand that way of thinking right? Even if you then go out to play shows and play your old hits with one or to new songs?
Or if all of your albums sound the same. That's being relevant? I just don't buy that....



And I'm saying, maybe the experience that followed those years made him more cautions.
Knowing things now that you didn't back then could affect anybody. There's not one quote where he says he lost hope in releasing new music. Yet some are acting like he did because he didn't say the opposite.

I'm aware that I'm different. I don't have that kind of "relationship" with the artists I enjoy listening to. I don't assume they don't want to release new music unless they tell me otherwise.




And I just don't get why people would assume there's no interest in creating new music. You take one interview with Chris and suddenly it's the absolute final word and truth. While other band members talking about writing songs is just dismissed as uninformed repeating of lies. It's amazing how selective people are.




Once again, you're assuming the worst. It's nothing new for some GN'R fans. If it isn't about an album never coming out, it's a tour being canceled, or riots or whatever.
We've seen all these doom and gloom prophets ever since the message boards started popping up. And even before with Usenet..

In short, some people want to be told the band plans to do something in the future. Otherwise they'll automatically assume they won't. Because Chris mentioned not being in a hurry to release new music. Or whatever reason they might use.

I wonder how many of those people assumed GN'R would never play live again because there were no updates about wanting to play live in 2005.... For example. And then in 2006 and 2007, they toured! And 2009... 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013...




Hypothetically speaking, if they mentioned that kind of reasons, do you think you'd be happy with it? What would you think of those so called frustrated fans who would just say "another update with stupid reasons"?





/jarmo

I don't have much of a reason to chime in cuz Soul Monster seems to be sharing my brain on most of this communication stuff.

But I just wanted to say that I, too, would LOVE to see Axl (or anybody involved) tweet or post anything like the example you gave, Jarmo.  Even if plans fall through, it's nice to know they're trying to do something.  Why do you think there is such a mix of skepticism and optimism when a band member speaks about something?  Because we don't ever hear ANYTHING official so we are just left to these forums to talk about it and try to figure out what's going on with our favorite band. 

Enjoying this thread.  Well played.

I agree with this. I'm also going to say that Slash has released two pretty good albums within the last 3 years. He communicates with fans via Facebook. I just don't get why Axl can't do the same.  What is the holdup regarding a new album with this lineup? Why is there such a negative attitude towards the fans wanting or even talking about new music? As a fan of Axl, it does get frustrating. 

It was only a few weeks ago that we had an update... I bolded the part which some should pay close attention to.

gunsnroses: Generally speaking, we have no information on tours, albums, or DVDs. When things get confirmed we'll let you know. Thanks for your patience


Think about what that means for a second or two. Does it sound like there's no plans for any of the mentioned things? To me it doesn't. Maybe it's my English...



/jarmo

How is that so, though? I mean, it's their albums, dvd's, tours. Surely they'd have some idea.

I'm happy to sit back and live my life until something happens, as much as I would love to hear/see something new, but I can understand the frustration caused by this "Update" to a certain extent.




 :peace:

I have to agree to be fair, we know the band have always had good intentions. But these "plans" have been going on for years and months now, it's only a natural fan reaction to get "frustrated" by the lack of progress in these very plans. In my opinion if someone doesn't get these feelings which come subconsciously when you love something so much, then you can't be a true fan. Because like a football team, it's your job as a fan to enjoy the highs, as well as shouting at them for "sucking" or not performing as well as you expected and hoped for.

Well, Jarmo and I have been going a bit in circles now. I hope my message is clear: some of the frustration among the fans stem from an observed change in Axl regarding the future and this could easily be dispelled by him telling us what his long terms plans are now, like he did prior to CD. He might just be more cautious now and hence reluctant to share his thoughts with us, but he might also have lost the enthusiasm for the future. I hope and believe the former, but it is what it is and it does lead to frustration and fans acting and lashing out. We will know later.

On a very positive note: Fernando has been chatting with us and he tells us news will soon be available and that "it will all be ok". I hope he will continue to chat with us. We are on the same side here.

Maybe instead of yelling at the band, you should look at your expectations?

So many people get frustrated because GN'R isn't like band X or band Y. In reality, GN'R has never been like any other band! Which is why we love them.

I'm aware that in this day and age, some people get frustrated that one of the bands they listen to isn't like the others. With all the social media and things like that, maybe people get used to certain things and that's the "norm". When somebody doesn't do that, they're "not communicating" or "don't care about their fans". Unfortunate....




/jarmo

Yes, everybody loves GNR because they can't release album in 14 years...

Do you think it was axl's plan not to release an album for that long ? Do you think axl as an artist wanted to take so long to record and release a new album ? Surely you can't believe that...

All the info is out there, so people should know better.




btw jarmo sorry if this isn't the time or place to ask you this or if you've answered this in the past, but have you ever heard anything music-wise we haven't ? And in your own personal opinion, what misconceptions do people have regarding how long axl took to release ChD and about his future intentions?

I don't know about you, but I love the band for the music they release.
Maybe you don't like them for the music they don't release when you want them to. That's your problem, not the band's.




/jarmo

Seriously the amount of defending and the lengths Jarmo goes to defend Axl and management is laughable at best and downright worrying at worst. GnR can do no wrong in Jarmo's mind and have never done wrong ever! What a joke. I hope all the kickbacks and touring perks make up for your clouded conscience.

Cuzon -

If you believe that Jarmo's views are disingenuous, influenced by outside factors, etc, why don't you attack his arguments instead of attacking him? After all, if his views are as laughable as you claim, shouldn't it be easy to counter his points?

But the fact that you instead ignore his positions in favor of attacking him personally indicates to me that you know his arguments are logical and sound.

And perhaps that frustrates you.

I appreciate your concern.

Got no issues with my conscience. It's clear... Defending is your choice of word, understanding would be another word expressing the same exact thing.

Some base their opinion on a person on what they read, others on how that person manages to fulfill their needs. Some don't. Different points of view. Simple as that.

 :)



/jarmo

Look at our expectations?, the band has released 1 album of new material since 1991. We've had countless of official "media' pulled or cancelled like the 2006 Axl Rose Documentary, the London 02 cinema release, the interviews with band members that was promised in late 2006, The 3D Vegas DVD etc. On top of this include various band members contradicting each other year after year saying "we're writing songs everyday", "a new album won't be as long as CD took", "the band have not sat in a room together to write yet", or "Axl has some killer ideas, the new album is going to be amazing". So how you can sit there and say that we need to look at our expectations, is beyond belief. You make it sound like an emotion like feeling let down, or dissapointment are feelings we are not allowed when it comes to anything GN'R. Believe me, I'm a hardcore fan who follows the band everywhere, and I've felt these emotions many times, it's not wrong either, it's healthy.

Yes, simple logic. If the band hasn't released albums according to your expected schedule, maybe your expected schedule needs adjustment.



That had a announced release date?



That whole thing was fishy. Which is why I wouldn't blame the band for it.



When was this definitely canceled?





They're not contradicting each other.
How can it be contradicting when one guy says he has written songs and another says they haven't written together. Both can be true!


Yes, I still believe maybe you need to adjust your expectations if you believe that just because there's cameras present it automatically means it's gonna be released. Are you still waiting for that Use Your Illusion documentary? Kidding, kidding. ;)





You can feel let down as much as you want. Of course.

I just personally think it's a shame some use the wish to hear new music as something bad. They want to hear new music, so when the band doesn't give it to them, they start hating the band for it. That's bad.
If you feel that's a good thing, I'm sorry but I don't agree.



/jarmo

Jarmo, you're unbelieveable.

He is....lol.... he will never concede anything....

but can you blame him? I dont... he has personal relationships with  these people...

hes not a fan of the music at this point...his relationship or whatever you want to call it with "Guns n Roses" is more than that ... so he will spin it in the brightest light till the cows come home

where as the most of us see the faults...he doesnt or doesnt want to... thats his perrogative

respect to Jarmo for his nobleness tho !

at the end of the day i enjoy reading the differing opinions on a subject of interest to me even tho some of them make my shake my head ...we are all entitled!

One in a million....ive always known you as one of the more loyal post Illusion era GNR posters.... so when you say this I think it should speak volumes...and I agree with you....

I wasnt expecting new news to come so quickly after the last leg of shows ended.... but for once i wish we were all pleasantly surprised with something sooner rather than alter

It's on the individual to look at his/her own expectations. I agree with that 100%.
Besides, it's the only thing we can control, since we sure as hell aren't influencing GN'R's actions.

I disagree with your point of comparing to other bands, though.
GN'R was at one point in time a lot like other bands. They put out records, music videos, interviews like most bands of their time.
They just happened to create music that I enjoyed more so than any other artist.
That's why I personally loved them.

This is an entirely different era, incarnation of GN'R, and it has next to nothing in common with the young, hungry and productive GN'R of old.

Which brings us back to your point of expectations. Some fans understandably carry over their expectations built up from old Guns to the latest incarnation.
It's up to those fans to look past the name, and see the track record of the different eras. Old Guns disintegrated back in the late 90's.
That means we have 13+ years to look back on. Doesn't necessarily mean the production, or lack thereof will continue, but we know for certain that these are two very different bands, with different members, goals, mindsets, etc and thus expectations should be managed accordingly.

Axl is the constant, but either somethings holding him back, something or someones no longer there to drive/push him, or he's simply at a different stage of his life and motivations have changed. Regardless, there is no evidence over the past 13+ years to suggest that new records, DVDs etc will be flowing into stores.

im sure jarmo has it's own opinions, and things he thinks should be handled in a different way just like any one of us but he chooses not to go around spreading hate, that doenst mean  it's because of his relationship with him but it may mean that because of that very same relationship that he understands how and why things didn't/don't work the way they should. Just my 2 cents.

If people say something bad about one of you're friends but you know the reasons why he does what he does wouldnt you defend him ?

Love GNR's music, hate inability to do/release/ finish anything on time. Ask yourself, why Finck left GNR? Why Buckethead left GNR?


And you? When someone bashing GNR because they something is cancelled you answer that was fishy thing from the start. Why everthing is so fishy in GNR? Why they can't work like normal band? Make fanclub function well, told fans what's going on and release music from time to time?

Look at Flaming Lips - major label (Warner Bros.) and they could release one album per 3 years, and make tons of music independently (Chocolate Human Skull, Dark Side of The Moon and The Stone Roses cover albums, The Flaming Lips and Heady Fwends etc.). Why? Because they want and they negotiate this with label?
So why GNR can't do this? Who is to blame that they can't work out something with record label?
Management/Axl.

Yeah, it's my opinion. :)





And there's many things GN'R does that I'm sure Flaming Lips can't... It works both ways.




/jarmo

Jarmo -

Does the band ever do anything you don't approve of?  Or handle something in a way you think may have been ill advised? 

I ask only because it seems like you are not critical of anything, ever.  Sheer logic, if not the simple law of averages, would dictate there must be something they have done these past 5 years you felt wasn't handled the right way.  There must be something.

Yeah but why would he bite the hand that feeds, he supports the band because he wants to keep his job and I can't really blame him

Yeah but even at my job when something is ridiculous I'll express that.

When something is ridiculous it's ridiculous.

Management also appreciates the honesty and advice.

Maybe he does, but just not publicly?

Yeah, but would you say it to the customer?

Well, I knew these sentiments would be expressed.  And I'm not trying to dump on Jarmo or pick a fight.

I just can't believe in 5 solid years, he didn't once say "yeesh, that's a mistake" or "wow, that's probably not the best way to go about this."

And while I suspect he's going to likely give me some version of "they are going to do what they do, what does it matter what I think", I still think its a fair question he should answer.  I have bands, teams, and public figures I am huge, huge fans of.  That hardly means I think everything they do is awesome.  Or bring out the long knives for anyone that expressed an opinion along dissenting lines.  Its just a conversation.  No one is trashing anyone here.

I thought about it, and the short answer is "not really".
There's no easy way to describe this, but it has nothing to do with any asses being kissed. No matter how often some strangers on the Internet tries to convince you otherwise.

Everything happens for a reason, and if you can figure out the reason(s), then that's pretty much all you need.
If you know the reason/background/whatever, and still disagree because those things aren't convincing you otherwise, then that's your choice. If you're quick to judge and disagree, then this point won't make any sense. "I don't agree" is all you need to say, anything else is irrelevant.

For example: I can't disagree with something like the band not releasing more albums because it goes against my belief that artists are free to decide when and if they want to release music for us to enjoy.

Disagreeing with choices because I would want/need something else.. I guess I'm not that selfish.
Just because I'd like to see GN'R on TV doesn't mean I need to disagree with them not humping each other at the VMAs... ;)




If something seems like a mistake but then you learn more about the issue, maybe you might change your mind...  :)



Now carry on about what an ass kisser I am.   : ok:
Well, not here...




/jarmo

See, now I'm trying to keep this civilized.  Was this needed?  Knowing that I can't really fire back, or I'm gone?  Not super cool by you.

We actually go back a bit, you and me.  We were both on Jeff's old internet mailing list back in another life.  I'm really not trying to break your balls, just asking a question.

It was a joke. People read something here and go have discussions about it somewhere else while making all kinds of assumptions. :)


Yeah, I remember that. The days before Myspace, Facebook, Twitter, Youtube, streaming shows, P2P and so on...



/jarmo

I am curious about something maybe one of you can answer.

Let's say Axl never bothered with trying to retain the name Guns N' Roses and the original band broke up with everyone going their separate ways. Axl went on and created a new band like the other OG members did.

If all the rumors around here regarding how many albums or whatever is owed to the record label and that being a possible reason for all these ridiculous holdups for releasing new music.

Would the label sue all the original members for not fulfilling the contract? Or is this all allegedly on Axl because he has ownership of the Guns N' Roses name?

Wasn't that the reason why the released the greatest hits, welcome to the videos, Live Era to get out of the contract?

I thought that but, there is all this speculation, Jarmo included, suggesting otherwise.

No offense, but why does it really need to be said that this person or that person associated with the band, or the band as a whole, made a mistake?

They're all human beings, right?  So, by their very nature they are fallible like everyone else, aren't they?

Everyone in the band has made mistakes, and I'm sure many of them.  I'm sure they'll continue to make mistakes.  They wouldn't be human otherwise.

I can't speak for Jarmo, obviously, but he may be saying that hindsight may give the benefit of seeing exactly where things went wrong, or what decision may not have been the best.  But, that may not have been so clear at the time based off the information available.

Ali

If Axl hadn't done that, Slash and Duff could have come together and blocked Axl from using the GNR name, or used it for themselves instead of Velvet Revolver.

Take a look at what happened to Queensryche, now there's TWO bands touring under the same name and releasing CDs with the same name. Fans of course know the story. Alter Bridge probably could have called themselves Creed if they had taken Stapp to court, but the best thing they did was start over from scratch with Myles.

It also prevents Slash and Duff from selling GNR merch at their shows. Not that they would, but they could.

Unrelated: did DJ do some of the tour t-shirts?

That's fine. My point though is this.

It's been said around here lately that a possible reason for the delay on a follow up to Chinese Democracy is that the record label is still holding things back. Man I should probably be waiting to tomorrow to write stuff here when I'm more lucid.

I'm wondering if that would still be the case if Axl hadn't retained the GNR name. Like if Axl hadn't bothered he might have avoided a lot of this potential nightmare and we might have more material from Axl released.

There is something about the law of attraction. Axl seems to always attract barriers and roadblocks and its always somebody else's fault for this or that but that usually means it is really a self fulfilled prophecy.

Axl wanting full control so bad but still finds himself without it.

We don't really know what kind of relationship Universal or Interscope has had with GNR for the past 5 years.

People thought he was just going to use the GNR name to sell T-shirts at Hot Topic, not keep the band going. 

We don't know the full story on why it was delayed, it'll be a while before we know what was going on, and even then we won't know everything about it.

How many of us wanded everything to end at 97?  No CD, no touring, no message boards...
C?mon? Anyone?

I think he did the one with the band cartoon. Not 100% sure on that though...

(http://images.oldglory.com/product/066735MITSc.jpg)




/jarmo

The one where he's wrapped around the guitar cord was also on his site (custom skin for the iPhone), so it's his. I wonder if this was the most popular one at the shows.

Wish GNR had some shows lined up ! Each of the last two years the fall has been an exciting time to get tickets !!!!

Where is the news?

Soon...

They deserve a break!

It would be interesting to add up how many hours a week Axl works, then add up the hours a week you work & see who deserves the break.  : ok:

Then again Axl can't go anywhere that he's not on show, no tourist spot, airport, supermarket, concert, movies etc without being bombarded by cameras & fans like you can so you'd have to include that as part of his work. Continuous photos with people you don't know must get tiring but luckily he's obliging & knows what a thrill it is for fans.  :peace:

Haha, you're fortunate then. Where I work my boss gets all shirty if I express an opinion and has told me in no uncertain terms that he doesn't expect to have to justify his actions to me. Apparently I'm supposed to respect his position of authority.  Yeah, as if! ::)  I did tell him that respect had to be earned - bet you can guess how that went down.... ;)

(Disclaimer: I have never met Axl and I'm in no way suggesting that he bears any similarity to my boss.  ;D )

You can't always get what you want....


I do remember certain fans complaining that GN'R were playing "too many" shows. So this must be an improvement for them!




/jarmo

At this point the only thing that would disappoint me involving GNR is a return to the dead times. Many know what I mean. The times where there were no shows, no news; just the occasional b.s. rumor and complete silence. Take a break, make new music, put on new shows. Just do whatever you want. I just hope they don't take years off again. Or at least years off in the public eye anyway.

Fuck me! That whole "They are playing too many shows" bit got really old really quick. This band can't do anything right according to certain fans. I'm not saying everything GN'R has done has been the right choice, but to have the shits with a band for playing live shows (which is the absolute reason for forming a band) is just ridiculous.

I do understand that people wanted them to stop touring and focus on an album, but I think people forget that TSI was recorded as they toured. These fuckers can multitask.


 :peace:

I remember seeing those type of complaints from ALL sorts of forum dwellers during 2011 and 2012. Me? I was busy going to as many shows as I could afford on those tours so maybe that's why I didn't have time to complain about shows I wasn't seeing  :hihi:

Lucky you getting to lots of concerts. My only complaint is the lack of photos of Axl during this quiet stage, I'm suffering bad Axl withdrawal   :rant:   & desperate to see some photos - you can't put yourself out there & make women fall for you & then disappear.  :love:

I just hope they do not go back on tour again with no new material.  But I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't go see them when they come close to my neck of the woods again.  They are better than being a greatest hits band, granted the hits are generational anthems but still, I'd like this band to be seen as evolving and current in addition to the back catalog.   

From what I've seen as a general fan of other bands....they just play they're hits . As a gnr hardcore fan we want to hear new material but majority if the people that go to concerts are general music fans, they don't want to hear CD songs they want to hear old classics sung by Axl. So he needs to play enough new stuff to appease diehard fans but enough old stuff to appease the general music fans.... In the end he's in a loose loose situation .... That's the problem

While I agree that it is a tough balance to do, given that they play 30+ songs, they can easily include more CD tracks.

Also, Sorry to point this out...

lose lose situation, not loose loose. Loose means something not tight, etc.

the moose is loose in the hoose - my impersonation of a Scottish person

Vertually everyone who goes to see Guns N' Roses live expects to hear Jungle, SCOM, NR, PC etc. But that's no reason not to progress and give a portion of the setlist to the new songs, and Guns did do that for a period of time a few years ago, perfect balance. But recently I've noticed them drop alot of CD songs in favour of old favourites. We lost Sorry and SOD, and gained songs which were not necessarily "must hears" for fans. I hope they don't continue along this path, and realise that fans still want the band to progress and hear songs they are not familiar with.

I'm not sure people are saying that.

What people ARE saying, and I would very much be in this very group, was that we'd rather see a more competent operation here.  I care less about the fact the old band broke up than I do about how Axl's supposed vision for the new band has been scattershot at best, and totally incoherent at worst.

People get blinded by the fact he's our favorite guy.  Hey, I'm guilty of that myself, sometimes.  And much like a mother who never sees the flaws in her precious baby boy that any outsider with a functioning brain can see plain as day, we excuse Axl's rather fucked up way of doing things as "rock n roll" and "unlike any other band."

Sometimes you are "unlike any other" because they way you are doing things makes no sense and is poorly executed.  And say what you will about their prime, you never doubted it was a well run machine.

This?  This ain't.

Playing over 200 shows with the same line up is something not even the Use Your Illusion line up managed.


I think people have a somewhat selective memory. Or they weren't fans back then so they base it on what others say.

It was a well run machine? People were fired or quit. There were riots at shows.

Now I know you'll say "they released albums" or "they made music videos". Sure. If that's the case, just say so. Don't say something and mean something else when in reality what you said isn't the absolute truth... :)


The point is, GN'R has always been GN'R. They've done things their way, they've always managed to annoy somebody for whatever reason.... 


/jarmo

Pretend this was not your favorite band. 

Suppose this was just another band you could take or leave and weren't already a huge fan of.  And you began to talking to one of that band's big time fans.

If you were presented with just the cold hard facts about how that band had been run the past 10 years, and it was exactly the way GNR has been run this past decade or so, and then had that person tell you it was "so rock n roll" and express some sort of ill conceived outrage when you told them it sounded pretty fucked up to you...you'd think they were off their nut.

Well, that's us.  That's GNR fandom in 2013.  We have to deny reality, ignore all common sense about how a band runs, and convince ourselves its not only not a problem...no, no, its actually awesome!!

Pretty messed up.

 Right now there is RIR Festival going on in Brazil. I?m shocked GN?R is not there. Baz will perfom the day after tomorrow, and so will Metallica, Rob Zombie and  AIC. Not only that, many other bands are now doing a South American tour this month and upcoming month.

I understand that GN?R has been on tour a lot this last couple of years. And they might need a break. But as it is only Axl is resting. Chris, Dizzy, Richard, BBF are all involved in side projects. For me it?s kind of a head scratcher.

It depends on your point of view. If you're only interested in bands doing what you want them to, then you're right. Then it fits your idea of "messed up".

This particular band released the album everybody said would never be out within the last ten years. Funny how that qualifies as being messed up.


I get it that you're upset that GN'R doesn't follow the cycle of other bands.


The difference between us is that I don't judge a band on how many albums they put out in how many years. Some of my favorite bands from the past don't exist anymore. Some have taken breaks or changed line ups. Some bands say more with one album then others do in their lifetime.

Axl being Axl is not a problem for me, Axl not being "more like" Jon Bon Jovi, or whoever else is the role model for a band leader, isn't a problem for me either. :)





Why are you shocked? The line up this year looks kinda boring.
No surprises. Metallica and Iron Maiden are the "metal" bands.

Wait, what albums are those bands promoting? Must be something new right? Bands are only allowed to tour when they release new albums... Or so I've read on the Internet. ;)




Apples and oranges.





/jarmo

I don?t care about the song list. New songs, old songs, Axl can sing Johnny Cash songs if that makes him happy. But the fact that they are not performing in RIR, a place that has special meaning for Axl and the management. And the fact that band members are involved in their own projects then I just don?t understand what?s going on here.

LOL.
Let's see you at 50 freakin' years old sing like he does, run around on stage and lead a band and NOT need a break.

Why are you shocked? The line up this year looks kinda boring.
No surprises. Metallica and Iron Maiden are the "metal" bands.

Wait, what albums are those bands promoting? Must be something new right? Bands are only allowed to tour when they release new albums... Or so I've read on the Internet. ;)



/jarmo
[/quote]

You know what might be interesting is to pick a few bands - say, Iron Maiden, Metallica, Aerosmith, Motley Crue, whoever - and look at how many albums and tours/performances they've done from 2006, when the band really got rolling again publicly, through 2012. Or even 2002-2012.

I bet there's not much difference in what they've done and what guns has done.

Hey quit knocking the 50 year old generation  :peace:  - you're only as old as you feel. Naturally he has slowed down but certainly has more energy than I have. He certainly looks a lot better than some 51 yr old men I see about.  :yes:

GN'R has always been a band surrounded by uncertainty. The UYI tour was plagued with "no-shows", riots, hiring and firing/quitting. Honestly, it seems much more stable today than it did 20 years ago.

Even the original lineup copped shit when they released Lies because it wasn't a "true" album. Then the UYI lineup copped shit when they released TSI because it was a covers record. This lineup copped shit when CD was released too. As much as GN'R has always been a very "big name" band, they have constantly been given-up-on for as long as I can remember but somehow still maintain a huge fan base and a bunch of die hards like a lot of us here.

The fact that a band who has been around for as long as Guns has have only released 4 "true" records but still have very strong ticket sales and a massive amount of interest from the average fan is just incredible.

GN'R is GN'R and have always been GN'R. Honestly, aside from a few faces, not a lot has changed in the 20 something years I have been a fan and I for one am ok with that.

Actually, the one change that I have noticed, which has been great for me, is the frequency of Australian tours. Before 2007, Guns had only been here twice (1988 and 1993). Since 2007, GN'R have toured here on 3 separate occasions in the past 6 years, after a 14 year absence..... And I think they will be back again within the next 2 years... and in support of a new album.



 :peace:

Their last show was 2 months ago not 2 days ago. And the other members are not little kids either. Sure you?ll be happy if Axl takes a 7 years break. But I?m afraid the big majority of the fans won?t.  Axl did it once so he can do it again.

The current line-up has been together five years now.  They still have yet to all be in a room together to write one note.  Five years.  That's troubling.  These are the things people are taking about when the say how dysfunctional this all is.

Yeah, I would like some competent promotion and a perhaps a more coherent business plan.  Sure I would.

But what I'd like even more, is some of the others to be asked what is going on and not have them laugh at the question.  Or tell us they have no idea, nor expect an idea any time soon.

Five years now.   

Considering they spent most of that time on tour around the globe in support of the previous album, it's not that "dysfunctional" or "troubling".

On one hand you want them to be more like other bands, and when they do, it's not good....  :hihi:




Promotion for what?





/jarmo

When the hell did I say that?
Do you know how to read?

Ha ha. Wasn't knocking them. Just saying it's understandable that he needs a break, particularly as a singer.
As far as the keyboards, guitar, etc go, it's probably a lot easier to play continuously day-after-day.
But yeah, he looks a lot better than your avg 50 year older.
Course 50 (or is it 60?) is the new 40.

LOL I hope it's 60 is the new 40 cos it sure isn't 50  :rofl: However when I saw gnr in March for the first time I was 14 again & couldn't believe I was screaming Axl's name when he was near us & throwing bras at him. It was great from my end being 14 again but now so sure it would have looked that great from Axl's end  :hihi: :nervous:
I have regained some dignity back until I next see them in concert. He'd better not leave it too long  :no:

Great post, as a Guns fan for the past twenty years I agree with you on all points

As a fan for 25 years, I find this to be refreshingly mature, accurate and broad in its view on GN'R's history.

Ali

Axl's probably picking a blinged out stroller out for the new addition to the family.

I thought GNR had a busy 2013. It's only been 2 months since they did a show. Remember when they took years? 

It all comes down what everyone's personal hopes and expectations for this band are. No one is really wrong as it is what it is to them, and as a fan they are entitled to feel that way. One fan might go "aren't we lucky to have GN'R doing anything, and I'd take touring any day over the silence we had in the past". BUT then another fan might say "I love seeing Guns live but I was expecting a new album alot sooner than this, it's been 5 years already since CD, and 80% of that wasn't really brand new material we hadn't heard". Both fans are right and entitled to feel the way they do, it's just the way it is.

I agree. 

I would also add that the zero sum argument presented by some here is not fair ,or even accurate.

To far too many, in my view, anyone that says they want a new album is told they are against them touring.  You ask about a new album, and you are told they just did some tour dates, so stop being such an unreasonable asshole.  No one is saying touring is bad. 

What people ARE saying, is that touring and actually releasing something in less than 10 year intervals would be better.

When I see statements like that, I have to respond. Sorry.

The songs form Chinese Democracy that were played live before its release were: Chinese Democracy, Better, Street Of Dreams, There Was A Time, Riad N' The Bedouins, I.R.S. and Madagascar. That's seven songs out of 14 on the album. Not exactly 80%.

Whoever would say something ridiculous like that can't really blame the band for not scrapping an entire album because tracks leaked and people chose to listen to them before the album's release!

You can do the same math for the Use Your Illusion albums and figure out how many of those tracks people heard before the albums were released....



The album isn't gonna be out any sooner just because you keep repeating that you want it more than you want shows. That attitude didn't work in 2001, 2002, 2006 or 2007. Feeling luckier this time?  ;)





And you think this is news to anybody?

There's a fine line between anticipation and whining.  :hihi:




/jarmo

I wonder if the label has indeed heard the next album and, like they did in with earlier versions of Chinese Democracy, told Axl that he could do better and have flat-out refused to put it out.

I re-listened to the '06 Eddie Trunk interview the other day, and Axl clearly states that they have the first two albums done, with another half-album worth of tracks that were still being worked on.  Something has to be holding up the release of the second album.

I just hope that no one on either side of the fence, meaning Axl & the label, throws their hands up and gives up on finding a way to put it out.

Different people relax different ways.

I know people that, after work, basically go out and do more "work".....just for different people (or themselves), on different projects.  Not because they want to earn extra scratch, but because they actually enjoy it, especially without the pressures and deadlines associated with their "real" jobs.

I know other people that, after work, hit the local bar and kick back with their friends.

I know other people that, after work, go home and park themselves on their couches.

I know other people that, after work, go off to some "other" type of work..something completely different than their jobs, but that that they find relaxing (wood working, restoring cars/bikes, etc).

Not everybody takes breaks the same way....

7 years? No.

6 months? After touring for the better part of 2 years? Nah, don't see a problem with that.  Other artists, both rock and pop, do similar things.

Totally agree.

But, you could also make the argument that maybe if band didn't drag their ass for years at time, it could cut down on the leaks.  Typically, leaks get out there from frustrated fans who often figure that they might never get out any other way.  Or maybe as a way to prove something actually IS happening.  2003-05 was, in my view, the darkest time in GNR history.  And after all that wondering if anything would ever happen, the leaks were almost a life vest for many fans ready to jump ship for good.

I'll agree that those who choose to listen to leaks can't then complain they were already used to the songs by the time they came out, years later.  That's legit.  What's also legit is that someone in the band might one day stumble upon the logical conclusion that all the inactivity and waiting makes fans restless.  I get that leaks are frustrating, but ultimately, the band itself controls the reason that fans have to resort to listening to them.

Great post.  You also have to consider that if there is, in fact, another album and a half worth of finished tracks out there (we have a laundry list of working titles) that are doing nothing but collecting dust at this point, eventually someone who had access to them is going to share what they have.

I'm not saying it's right, but how can you hold onto songs for years and years and expect all who were involved or had access to them to simply allow them to stay buried...whatever the reason may be for the lack of new music.  If it's within their control to put these songs out, how shocked can you really be when someone else who has them makes the decision for you?

Yep.  And no one is saying that's "right" and I'm sure its frustrating for the band. 

And let's disprove another common talking point.  If we have stuck with Axl all this time, we ain't going anywhere.  Let's be honest here.  We are all going to buy the album when it comes out.  So even if we download and listen to a leak, its just to tide us over.

Even if you want to make the argument we are "ruining the surprise", we've obviously made our peace with it, no?

Exactly.  I have to stress that I'm not saying it's right.  I'm just saying that it's utterly naive to think that with all the people that were involved in recording process of the Chinese Democracy album(s) that all of the songs will stay in Axl's proverbial "vault" until he decides that it's time for us to hear them.

It happens to every big band, The Stones, Aerosmith, Metallica...Demos leak eventually for both released and unreleased tracks.  And when you consider all the unreleased stuff Axl allegedly has, he is certainly not only not exempt from it, it actually increases the chance of leaks twice-fold for obvious reasons.

I don't consider downloading a leak to be the same as say, torrenting a TV show.

If you torrent a TV show, its to avoid paying for it.  Let's cut the shit.  You are absolutely ripping someone off.

But a leak is a placeholder, not an outright substitution of the actual product.

You also have to consider that anyone who would download a leaked GNR track in 2013 must be a hardcore fan, as at this point, everyone surely must know that it's the Axl Rose show and that past members are long gone.  Point is, if you're downloading a GNR leak in 2013, you're buying the album.  What harm is done?

Absolutely.

I have also always been a bootleg concert collector.  I never understood the harm done.  If anything, its a huge compliment, no?  I'm a big enough fan to scour the internet for this stuff, am I not?

And where am I taking money out of the band's pocket?  Believe me, I'd rather they just put out a soundboard version of every show.  But they don't (no band does) so its off to track them down myself.

But if I am tracking down bootleg concerts, some of average (at best) quality...have I not already purchased all the official stuff?

Okay, this isn't an attack on you by any means. It's a popular saying here for sure, but I truly don't understand what I consider to be a throw away line that's been adopted here.
The ol' "GN'R is GN'R and has always been GN'R". What the hell does that even mean? haha

More stable than 1993? Sure, that was arguably the least stable period of early Guns, because they were splintered and on the verge of disbanding.
Even still they managed to release an album and match the production of all lineups to follow combined as far as official releases go.
The 6 years prior may not be what you would consider stable, but it was very productive. Maybe you're not talking about that period.

They managed to become one of, if not the biggest bands in the world.
Something they couldn't be mistaken for today.

There has always technically been a band with the name Guns N' Roses since it's inception, so technically the saying is not wrong, but virtually nothing about today's incarnation resembles that of the band inducted into the HOF. I mean, it's about as stark a contrast as you could hope to find. Today's lineup doesn't exactly resemble the Bucket/Finck era either. This isn't a negative, it's just reality.

It's been more than a "few" new faces over the years. Maybe not a whole lot has changed besides the personnel since '93, but is that really a good thing?
I love live music as much as the next guy, but myself I'll take the production of '87-'93 over the "stability", and I use that term very loosely, of later incarnations.

And it's not like these songs were recorded last year and set to come out in November.  These are songs that were recorded '98-07 with still no release in sight.  To resist that temptation, you'd have to be of the mindset that "Oh, Axl will get around to releasing it one of these years. I'll abstain."  Who thinks that way?

Please don't try to justify stealing for the band. Thank you.  : ok:

At the end of the day, it's not your work of art, it's not your choice when to release it for the public.

The whole idea that leaks are only good is just naive. Albums get judged based on whatever song(s) come(s) out first. The first single that the artist decided on to be the first song for the public to hear, might be the fifth song people hear from the album. That might be too late, people already made up their minds.

Everything you work on to set up an album's release is wasted once some other people start taking it upon themselves to start releasing your music (for free).


Bootleg recordings of concerts is a different matter. Sometimes they can cannibalize sales of a live album or concert film. But often there's nothing else released from the show you attended.




I do.





/jarmo

Eh, no offense honestly intended, but if you are saying that you did not give Better, IRS, Catcher & TWAT a listen in 2006 when they leaked, I'm going to go ahead and say that I do not believe you...at all.

I'm not saying that those who "steal" from the band are justified.  Not in the least.  What I am saying is that it is perfectly understandable for fans to be curious about music they've been waiting years to hear any way it's made available, leak or official. That's all...

They need to release new music, that's all.

Continuing to tour behind music the new band had FUCK ALL to do with doesn't help anyone. Sure, the casual fans enjoys it, but eventually the band wont. Especially guys like Ron and DJ who seemingly came into this band in hopes of making music for the fans of Guns N' Roses. Sure, there's more money in touring than there is in record sales, but attendance isn't as good as it once was, and the ticket's are going on sale for over 100, which doesn't help either.

A new album with proper promotion could put new life into GN'R. Especially if the music is good, which it most likely will be. I'm as big as a fan of Axl you will find, and I would love for him to put out music for us. The longer they tour as a nostalgia act, the more and more they fall into obscurity.

You said "Who thinks that way?".
You didn't ask "Did you think that way in 2006?".

The new Mark Lanegan album leaked online a week or two before release. I waited until it was released. Several new Pearl Jam tracks have leaked, but I've just listened to the two singles from the album....

I remember the excitement of getting a new album you've waited for, even in this day, you can feel that. It's your choice....




It's a Catch 22.

Some fans want to know everything. They know that there are tracks that weren't released yet. So they want to hear them. Even if it means pissing on the band's wishes.
If those fans didn't know the songs existed, they complain that they don't even know if there's anything done for the next record....



/jarmo

You're not wrong at all.  In fact, if there was a release date set six months out in 2014, and a song leaked today, I'd say "Nah, fuck it.  I'd rather here it mastered and ready to go."  Because that's the truth.  I want to hear these songs on an album the way the band intended them to be heard.

It's the fact that there's zero talk about when the next GNR album may come out that makes pressing the "Download" button that much easier, as well as making the decision to leak a track easier for those who have them.  Heck, in 2006 Axl said the album was going to be out that year BEFORE the leaks started and everyone still went nuts for them. IRS even made the effing charts! The situation in 2013 is even more dire when it comes to hopes of hearing new music, as we don't even know for sure that Axl wants to put out an album. I believe his last official comments on another album was "Dont know and don't care."

Again, I don't want to make it seem like I'm justifying stealing from the band.  I'm just pointing out the reality of where we're at in terms of hearing new music on an "official" level.

OK, so let's say I waited for the band to do all that.  I'd have gotten no proper single, no video, and never heard one of the new songs on the radio, ever.

I do get your overall point, but in terms of this particular band, it doesn't hold water.  They don't do any of that shit you just described. 


Well, as has been said a few times now, the best defense against that is for the band to get off their ass and do it themselves.  Do they have to?  No, of course not.  Its their band.

But then, what happens...happens.  You don't get to have it both ways.  If you did the best you could to get things out in a timely manner and still had to put up with leaks, fine, we'll hear you out how that's unfair and sucks.  You spend three and a half years not saying a word to us?  Well, you get what you get.  And if what happened in 2006 didn't teach you anything, no one is going to have any sympathy for you in 2014 if it happens again.

With Chinese Democracy, the first song that was officially put out was Shackler's Revenge in Rock Band 2, then there was If The World in that movie, then you got the title track on the radio. Then the album.
See, there was a plan.





What gives you the right to steal somebody else's work? Because you're frustrated?

If i can't have a Ferrari today, it's ok for me to steal one? Because I wanted one for years?

Is that a viable defense?



This is the problem with some fans. Trying to justify stealing from the band because they're upset that things don't go their way. None of them paid a single cent for the album they're "waiting" for. Nobody invested in it. They chose to invest time and energy on posting about how angry/upset/sad/disappointed they are, but that still doesn't give them any right to do what they do.

If somebody ever took something of yours from you without your consent, how would you feel and would you be so understanding if their defense was "but I wanted this for years!"? Or "it's a compliment, it only means I'm interested in your work!"....



As I've said in the past, there's a difference in being interested in hearing new music and being selfish enough to fuck things up for the band because you think you have some kind of right to hear music.

Music has lost so much value. It's pretty much worthless these days. People want it for free whenever they see fit. It's their "right".

If it was some other kind of creative product, things might be different. For example, if you're a fan of a painter, does it mean you have the right to see every sketch (s)he ever made? You're a fan of Scorsese? It means you have the right to see every scene he ever filmed? "I know this movie is three hours long, but there must be more scenes that they filmed! I waited for so long, I got the right to see them!"... Or see the movie before he considers it done? That would be ridiculous!  :hihi:



Here's a tip, try letting go of that notion that just because you liked the previous album(s) by a band or an artist, that you're "owed" more music.




/jarmo

See, but I don't think it's that personal with 99% of the people who'd download a song that leaks.  I don't think anyone's out to hurt the band, or is overcome with feelings of entitlement when they listen to a leak.  It's literally as simple as "Oh, a Guns N' Roses song.  I love Guns N' Roses!" ::CLICK::

Now, the people who somehow obtain these songs, and post them on a download sight and send it out into the internet: Well, they're a different story. That is wrong.  It's a "Blame Philip Morris, don't blame the smokers." kind of thing...

This is all a sweet little lecture, but here's the rub.

As already stated in this thread, hardcore nerds like us seeking out leaks are still buying the album.  Just like I did at my local Best Buy, the day it came out.  I didn't steal anything from anyone.  They still got my $14.99, or whatever the hell they charged at Best Buy on 11/23/08.



Yeah, and here's one in return.  Try going to some other band's forum and compare their experience to ours and see how that goes.  You'll be laughed off the god damn internet.

I guess, in a way, I admire your slavish devotion and attempts to quash all dissent and criticism, but I can't believe for one second its lost on you that you are doing so for a band that gives you nothing to work with.  There must be times (thought you'd never say it publically, I realize) you have to do some of these verbal smackdowns towards we problem children through gritted teeth.  You're only human.  There is no earthly way you think everything they do is right as rain and no one with a dissenting opinion ever had a point.

Obviously.

We are lifelong fans of this man.  I've been a fan since sixth grade when WTTJ was a new video.  The notion I'd download a leak because my intention is to hurt the band is ludicrous.

Agreed. Jarmo recently compared GNR to Metallica, who's fans also got their last album in 2008.  Well, they also got Load in '96, Reload in '97, Garage Inc in '99 & Saint Anger in '03.  If they had to wait 17 years for Death Magnetic, with no real promotion or videos following it, something tells me they'd be a tad irrate as well, and perhaps a little less patient with the goings on of the band.

Guns is an island in of itself, and their fans have to work with what they get, when they get it, however it comes.

No offense, but your statement about leaks being "typically" from "frustrated fans who often figure that they might never get out any other way" is a suspect argument.  There are numerous examples of leaks occurring even when album releases by artists were not that far apart.

Britney Spears' 2007 album blackout was leaked.  Her previous album came out in 2003.  U2's 2004 album How to Dismantle An Atomic Bomb leaked even though their previous album came in 2000.  Eminem's Encore leaked before it came out in 2004, even though The Eminem Show came out in 2002.

I don't think it is quite "typical" for frustrated fans who see no hope for an artist to release an album to be the source or reason for album leaks.

Regardless, while "we" all may buy the album regardless of whether or not there is leaked version available for free, that does not necessarily mean that a more casual fan, who may have opted to buy the album otherwise, wouldn't instead download a leaked version available.

So, I think the issue of impact of album leaks goes beyond the more fervent online portion of a fanbase.  

Ali

So because that's true for you, it must be true for everybody. So it's ok?

What do you call it if you take something that's not yours from somebody without their consent? Even if you promise to pay later....
If it's a physical object instead of a file on the Internet, what is the act of taking something that's not yours and not paying for it called?





I don't care.
I still don't buy the sense of entitlement some fans have. You love the music somebody creates, you pay for it to have a copy in your car, the musician makes money on selling the songs on albums and/or concert tickets where people experience the artist perform those songs. And then you're owed more music? Makes no sense to me.

I don't feel owed by anybody who becomes successful at something and makes money on it.




Nope. Not at all. It's all about attitudes, points of view and so on.
For example, I can't imagine how frustrating it must be to wake up every day and feel upset that somebody who you feel owes you music doesn't deliver it to you. I can't relate to that because it's not my point of view.

For me, it's about what I have instead of what I don't. It's about what the show is, instead of what it isn't.

I wouldn't go see the Rolling Stones with the attitude that "it's not the same as it was in the 1960s".






No. Once again, it's about how you see things.

I would love if GN'R released a new album... Yesterday! But the fact that they didn't doesn't make me angry/frustrated at them.
Is it because I'm not a fan or because I don't care? Not at all.
Is it because I don't feel like Axl owes me X amount of new songs in Y amount of time for my loyalty? Most likely!

He's one talented guy, we all know that, but it's not up to me to decide how he spends his days. He's not a robot, it's his life. I don't demand that he goes and spends X amount of hours in a studio to record Y number of songs to be released before (insert date).

At the end of the day, all that matters is that he does what he thinks is right and is happy doing it. I don't care about the rest. I would rather have any of the artists I enjoy listening to doing that, than releasing music just to keep the quota up. And if that means they don't release albums every 5 years, then so be it. :)





/jarmo

These aren't exactly the best analogies though.

You are talking about an entire finished product album leaking a week or so before it officially comes out.  That's a breakdown in security and someone in the supply chain with sticky fingers.  And sometimes, it has lead to official releases being pushed up a few days so as not to affect sales.

These were leaks that came out in May 2006 and then the album drops in November 2008.  We all heard the leaks and we all heard the finished products.  Minimal differences, with the exception of 'Catcher In the Rye'.  Can you honestly say the versions we wound up getting on the album needed 2 more years of work?

None of this is to justify leaks or people that post them, but can you, as an artist, really waste over 2 more solid years like that?  If your argument is going to be that people should not listen to them, why in the holy hell would you give them over 2 more years to do so?  They knew people were listening to them.  Some made the radio.  Some charted for christ's sake. 

These other artists you are talking about at least tried to be proactive and limit damage.  Did Axl?  Was the best course of action to do nothing about it for 28 months?  And then throw up your hands and say "man, those leaks sure fucked us."  Is that credible?

Leaks are going to leak, fans are going to gobble them up, and that is the way of the world.  I'm sure its frustrating to an artist.  But at what point to you tackle the problem head on and try and deal with it?  Or do you just throw up your hands and cry foul?   

How are they not the best analogies?  You claimed, "leaks get out there from frustrated fans who often figure that they might never get out any other way".  I'm giving distinct examples of how there were several instances when albums leaked from artists who had released albums 4 years or less before the time the leaked album leaked and/or were scheduled to come out.  Albums leak in instances other than what you described.  The leaking of an album is not some kind of act of desperation done on behalf of poor, suffering fans in all instances.  You're romanticizing the leaking of an album.  But, it's not always so romantic and noble.  I don't know if it ever is for the person responsible for the leaks.  I believe Skwerl did what he did solely to drive up traffic to his site.  But, we can disagree on that.

As far as why wait two more years after the 2006 leaks to release the album, there may be circumstances far beyond our knowledge that played a role.  There could be other reasons that we were told about - like the desire to incorporate BBF and Frank into the album.  Was that last point necessary?  Maybe not to us.  But, maybe to Axl since Frank and BBF were part of the band and have continued to be since 2006.

As far as "tackling the problem head on", I assume you mean releasing the music officially.  That would be ideal for the fans, sure.  But, is it ideal for the band?  I have no idea. 

Does our desire to hear new music outweigh the artist's desire to release music in the form they see fit at the time they see fit?  I don't know.  I know it's not my art in play. 

But, I do know that, honestly, I would like to hear new music as soon as possible and I prefer that over tours or DVDs.  But, that being said, I won't pass up a chance to see said tour or purchase said DVD without hesitation.

Ali

It means it's still the same machine with the same attitude it's always been.

Over the past 7 years there has been a bunch of tours, an album, interviews, fan club (as bad as it may be). There has been very few cancelled shows, no no-shows and recently the shows have been starting early/on time (not that that really matters to me. I don't mind the late starts.). That all seems pretty stable to me.

The productivity has definitely slowed over the years, and I'd be stupid to say it isn't slower than other bands from their era, but I am ok with it.

Bands lose members. It happens. But it doesn't mean the band should stop because a guitar player leaves or a drummer is sacked. You continue on at the best of your ability; and considering Axl has basically had to do this by himself is pretty impressive.

I'm not going to get into the whole "Axl vs Slash" thing, but I will ask you this; do you think Axl should have called it quits when Slash and Duff left?




 :peace:

There's been an increase in people saying that the fans should be happy because GN'R are doing "something". Come on, we all support current Guns N' Roses and want them to succeed. But it's not a bad thing that some fans question why things are taking so long, or fans thinking that the band may have done it another way etc. How someone can sit there and say "people pick on GN'R all the time, they are just like every other band", is beyond me because it's obvious that this group have had alot more issues compared to other bands. I've just come to the conclusion that some people won't let it be known that they have any criticism of the band and Axl whatsoever. Whether it's a public front I don't know, but it's hard to believe that subconsciously they can't see the same flaws as us.  The fact is that those same people will be still here defending GN'R if a new album still hasn't materialised for another 10 years, so I give up.

Aren't you just questioning things you don't probably even understand or can't relate to?

Are you in a band? Do you write songs? Are you signed to a major record label? Are you in charge of a multimillion dollar company (which essentially is that a successful band is)?



"Flaws as us"?

What is a "flaw"? That they let your favorite guitar player Robin leave? That they don't release albums according to the schedule you think is appropriate?
What you consider a flaw, some of us just think is part of the course. Some of us have accepted GN'R as it is. We don't build up imaginary GN'R scenarios in our minds and get upset when it doesn't materialize.

Does that means we wouldn't love new music? Not at all.

What exactly do you like about the band? All these "flaws" that you see, there must be something that makes it worth it....
Personally, I love their music. The music I have. Not feeling frustrated about the music I don't have. I also love seeing them perform those songs live in concert. I love those songs on the records, so why shouldn't I love to see the perform those songs live?

I also love the fact that Axl is Axl and you can't find anybody like him out there. Some of you seem to really dislike that part and consider it a "flaw".




/jarmo

I think all that is true...and I think the part people ignor, or fail to understand the most, is the interaction with the label.

For example, it was mentioned that after the leaks, gnr should have just released the album at that point.

People need to realize that is not realistic. If the album is not on the labels release schedule...and all that means and entails...they a re not going to approve release. Even if the artist really wants it released. 

That can mean the label doesn't feel it's ready, isn't ready to commit dollars to promo and distribution, doesn't want to use one of its release slots on it, or a thousand other tHings that have little or nothing to do wit the artist wanting to get it out, or the artists feelings about how ready the material is, or how opportune the window would be.

Without having any clue about what was going on behind the scenes....comments like "they should have just released the album and not waited 2 more years" sort of ring hollow. At least to me.

In addition, there's different kinds of leaks.

You have the "the album is done, pressed onto cds and ready to be shipped to be sold" leaks that happen to almost all releases. In this case, it's groups of people competing who will be the first one to get a specific album out. Same thing with movies, video games and so on.

Then you have the leaks of, in many cases, unfinished material. GN'R isn't the only band this has happened not. It happened to U2 back in 1990-1991 when somebody stole tapes of what the band was working on and released it. More recently, Lana Del Rey had songs leaked that somebody somehow got access to. Possibly accessed her computer and stole the songs that way.

I just don't buy the concept that since you're gonna buy the album later, it's ok for others to steal tracks from artists. I'm talking about the second kind of leaks here. The first one is a different matter. You can always justify your own actions with the excuse that you'll buy the album, but you can't guarantee the same holds true for everybody who downloads any kind of leaks. So how can you claim it does no harm?

Even if everybody buys the album, what right does somebody else have to steal and release other peoples' work? I get the whole Robin Hood mentality, I get the starving analogies. We're not talking about some things that are essential to survive here. It's not air, water or food. It's songs that somebody else wrote, recorded and created. Somebody paid to make that happen as well.

But then somebody comes along, takes it and puts it out there, even if it's not done, because some GN'R fans deserve to hear it? They need it? Their loyalty demands it. They are owed that. Really?

Some are quick to see "flaws" with the band but don't see any kind of flaws with their way of thinking?

I'm sorry, I don't buy it.




/jarmo