Here Today... Gone To Hell!

(Duplicating from 'BUY PRODUCT' as I'm not sure where it would belong - delete as needed)

Hi all,

I've finally gotten round to publishing a Live ?!*@ Like A Suicide buyers guide. I'm pretty sure all the hints, tips and tricks for spotting a fake copy are included but I'd really appreciate any help you guys can give as I've only ever seen a handful of these in real life.

If you have anything to add I'll be happy to add a credit for your name (and/or website) to the piece. Click the link below to see all,

http://ticketsthere.com/2011/11/13/guns-n%E2%80%99-roses-%E2%80%93-live-like-a-suicide-vinyl-cassette-buyers-guide/ (http://ticketsthere.com/2011/11/13/guns-n%E2%80%99-roses-%E2%80%93-live-like-a-suicide-vinyl-cassette-buyers-guide/)

Cheers,
Rob

Good job, but what do you mean when you say the band member's names are in white?  They appear in red to my eyes.  The song titles are in white.

Hi troccoli,

You just made me a happy man, this is why I needed another pair of eyes. That was a mistake and I've updated the artile now. Thanks a million for spotting this!

Cheers,
Rob

Good thing on the shrink wrap thing.
Does anyone know for sure it was ever provided in shrink many years ago?

For all i have seen online, and the few i have seen in real life, all with plastic or shrink, open or sealed were boots.

Not 100% sure but I believe it was. I've seen several record stores from LA and California selling the record so I'm presuming these are coming from local fans, but that could all be guess work. never trust em I say and thanks for reinforcing that message!

Also just a side note, I will be updating the Cassette info soon, but there isn't much to add for this. Just more 'LIES's spotting if anything.

Cheers,
Rob

They were definitely released in shrink wrap. A few years ago Alan Niven got rid of the remaining copies of LLAS that he had they were still sealed in the shrink wrap.

Thanks a lot for confirming, would you mind me adding that fact to the piece to let people know some shrink wrapped copies are genuine? Personally I'd love a wrapped copy but unless Axl Rose sells one to me, I ain't trusting them :p G

Yeah by all means you can use that info in your guide.

Interesting too that you mention in your guide that 25,000 copies were pressed but only 10,000 released.  Where did you get that info from?

I always see the 10,000 number, but Niven told me when I bought the vinyl off him that he recalls that 25,000 copies of both were made.  So you're right with the figure, but I assume that it includes cassettes,  although there seems to be far fewer cassettes come up for sale compared to the vinyl.  Maybe people tended to throw them away or they got broken a lot more compared to the vinyl. Strangely too whilst the cassettes don't come up for sale anywhere near as often as the vinyl they sell for less, I guess fewer people collect cassettes compared to vinyl.

Anyhow here is some other factual information about the release you might want to use that I got direct from Niven way back when I bought a couple of sealed copies of the vinyl from him:

Live Like A Suicide was only manufactured on vinyl and cassette, total number of both items was, to my best memory 25,000 units, which I sold to Important records, an indy distributor of the day. They were manufactured by Warner Bros on my request, with care to ensure there were no markings whatsoever to link the discs to Geffen or their manufacturer. [Of course, the fact that the band were already signed to a major was somehow overlooked as I got these out in the guise of an indy record. The $40,000 I got from Important funded the first foray into Europe, Hamburg, Dusseldorf and the first three Marquee shows - and the momentum was thus begun].

This is great stuff, thanks so much. I'll update the article with it now :) As for the 25,000 copies, I've seen that in several sources over the years but have never been able to work out why 25,000 would be printed but only 10,000 sold. It was a theory that maybe the other 15,000 were damaged or not printed properly and those are the ones in circulation as fakes - but haven't seen anything to support this. Surely they didn?t have 15,000 friends and family to give away those copies to?

For cassettes, everything I?ve seen points to their number being included in the 10-25K numbers. I?m always trying to find out more details about this but the 10-25K numbers always refer to the number of copies printed of the EP total, not specifically to the vinyl pressing. I?ve never been able to find an exact number of cassettes that were released but like you say they rarely pop up. I suppose this is down to the fact that people don?t want to fork out $100 for a tape and would rather save the money for a record. Also any existing copies are  probably storied away in a box in someone?s house and aren?t even remembered anymore. I?ve seen several reports of people finding them in second hand shops, charity shops and flea markets hidden away in the middle of massive cassette sales for like a $1.

What?s weird is, I started looking a few years ago if people have ever sold the vinyl and cassette together and any sale I found seemed to go for a lot less than the value of the record alone so if you?re in the market, maybe that?s the best way to buy both  ;D

Ive owned 6 suicides over the years and 1 was a def fake cos of the shade of black and weight of the vinyl. But all 6 had "sterling" stamped near the matrix. The embossing wasnt as clear on the fake but it was still present though.

Ah that doesn't help much  :-\ Was the black colour and the weight the only give away? I have seen a few people comment that STERLING didn't appear on fake copies they've owned so either people are overlooking it or there are several versions of fakes in circulation. 

The sleeve was thicker card and the black was more bold rather than the red tint. The art work and text appeared to be the same though. The vinyl had all the matrix etch etc but appeared more heavyweigt and didnt flex as much as the original. The "sterling" however wasnt as clear and appeared to fade at one end. Am i right in thinking that the pressing plant got the vinyl blanks with sterling already on and then pressed the rest of the info on etc, cos the sterling on the fake did look like an afterthought to be fair. Im on my mobile at present but i might have some pics in my pc files, ill try to find time to have a look

Cassettes came sealed too, I have one that is still sealed (only one I've seen though that still is).

Thanks a lot guys! Wadey - if you have a picture of the fake 'STERLING' stamp I'd love to add it into the post if that's ok with you? Same For the sealed tape troccoli, I'll be doing a proper update for the cassette part in the next week or so.

Cheers guys and appreciate your inputs on this, between us all we'll figure out a final tell between fakes and genuine copies  ;D

Hi all,

Just a note to say I've updated the 'STERLING' part to reflect wadey's feedback above. Also, the Cassette section is now complete with lots of pics added to the gallery.

as for the 10.000 or 25.000 copies difference....

As i have understood, there were 25.000 made, and though there might not have been 15.000 friends and family members, giving away that big of a number of disc is not that uncommon for that era of time.
For sure there were many thing given away in clubs back in the days. Even now, copies of "demo" released 1 ep's or something like that will be given away at many little bands gigs.

And, seeing those many (stated, at any given moment there are a few copies for sale somewhere) there are in circulation (not thinking of any fakes to make it easy), i think 25.000 being really made is a more realistic number to go on as the 10.000 number.

Note, these are just my 2 cents of thinking, as it has been a mystical item for many years, some of this thinking might be because of older stories arround the web..... Sorry.....

Hi, cant find the Pics unfortunately but im still looking though. I can remember though the fake "STERLING" was upside down compared to the matrix etc

found one of my old suicide threads with some more info though

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/board/index.php?topic=56598.0

slight difference between 2 original copies, or at least i think there both original cos its the only difference i could find

could everyone check thier copy to see if the letter "A" is stamped in the centre of the vinyl

Letter A is stamped on both sides of the disccenter here.

Yep 'A' is here too and it appears on every copy I've seen and in most high quality pics, but it's not uncommon for vinyl presses to use different version of vinyl for a pressing if they don't have enough in one batch; especially smaller pressers. Thought that might be the reason behind the STERLING stamp at one stage but no joy. Damn this ep, pain in the a*s  ;D

Definately a pain in the ass mate, Its been driving me nuts for years! Ill have a look at my cassette later and compare it with your guide

That would be sweet, cheers! I've only ever seen my own copy of that.

Did you keep the copies Alan gave you to check against others?

My Dad told me that back in the day right before Appetite came out, my Uncle who lived in Hollywood brought him that cassette. He told also that both sides had the same 4 songs. Are the songs on both sides on the cassette. Because my Dad said if it is real he'll find it and give it to me. Any help??

Yeah I've still got the 2 copies I got from Alan, although they are both still sealed so I can't look at the vinyl itself :(

Yep, Side A and B of the cassette play the same four tracks; so you should be good :)

Ah not sure it'll help much anyways. A lot of folks who bought (or claim to have bought) it at the time say conflicting things about the vinyl's appearance so round in circles we go.

I know the vinyl he sold was legitimate, not boots.

Maybe there are just some variations arising from the pressing plant.

I bought the cassette a couple years back for about 50 $.

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y65/droezle/livelikeasuicide381x490-1.jpg)

I think that's it to be honest. I collect Def Leppard vinyl and did a massive inventory recently and the amount of differences between pressings for the one item was ridiculous. First 1,000 of this has ?Elliott? spelt wrong, first 10,000 missing this track?etc, etc. Several versions of the same release for the same country printed at the same time. So differences between version for 25,000 isn?t surprising.

I think the art work and vinyl weight or the main things to go on (not even sure about the weight). For the art work, they obviously had to reproduce it from either an original LLAS or LIES back cover, so the quality couldn?t be the same as a genuine copy. LIES has a darker cover that syncs with reports about the fake vinyl?s appearance. But the accuracy of the copies (labels especially) seems to suggest they might have reproduced from an original LLAS.

I?m willing to be the cover is the key to spotting the fakes. As reported by a few people, the back of the original has that red tint, the fake doesn?t. And the overall darkness on the front is a lot stronger than the original showing the change when reproducing a copy from a copy, rather than the original art work which they wouldn?t have had access to. Today you could probably do a decent job with photo-shop, but these were meant to have been done years ago so doubt they could have matched the original so much that you can?t tell the difference.

i do have a sealed LLAS vinyl from a direct friend of Doug Goldstein. you want me to make pictures?

Hell yeah, the more the merrier :)))

What is it about uncles and Gnr?

My uncle lived in LA, at the time, as well.  He didn't send me an original, though. He kept that (still has it, AFAIK). I've got a home made boot leg (as did a couple of my other cousins)....which I still have (and it PLAYS!) tucked away.

Just got another fake suicide today and i have proof of the sterling stamp on both original and fake. Ill post some pics when i get to my pc... Be warned though, im about to turn this thread on its ass!!!

All pics are now taken, including the sterling stamps. Just waiting to get on my pc to show everyone. I will not tell you which is the fake though. I want people to guess just by the pics, when we buy stuff from the net all we go by is pictures so this way we can get a true reflection what people think

Can't wait!

Right then here we go !!!!!  - actual proof that the "sterling " stamp is on the Fake
2 suicides - 1 legit and 1 fake  - all pictures marked A & B - can you spot the fake from the pics
sorry for all the pictures but im just trying to show all angles
all pictures have been taken with the records side by side (apart from sterling) , taken in natural sunlight with no flash
(http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd501/wadey1973/P070312_1556.jpg)
(http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd501/wadey1973/P070312_155601.jpg)
(http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd501/wadey1973/P070312_1557.jpg)
(http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd501/wadey1973/P070312_1558.jpg)
(http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd501/wadey1973/P070312_1609.jpg)
(http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd501/wadey1973/P070312_160901.jpg)
(http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd501/wadey1973/P070312_1615.jpg)
(http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd501/wadey1973/P070312_1616.jpg)
(http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd501/wadey1973/P070312_1617.jpg)
(http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd501/wadey1973/P070312_1620.jpg)
(http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd501/wadey1973/P070312_1622.jpg)
(http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd501/wadey1973/P070312_1625.jpg)

Wow, never knew the fakes looks so real! I really can't say which one is real. Extremely good reproduction though!

to be fair mate i could only spot it cos i could could compare with my original, anyone buying this that didnt already own one would be stuffed
this is how good the fakes are becoming!!!

I'm gonna say that copy B is real based mostly on the jacket spine, but I still really have no idea.  Just out of curiosity, how do you know that the one "real" one you have is well, real?

ill give more information when other members give thier opinion  ;)

just compared to my sealed LLAS which provenly(!) comes through one of their old managers.
no daylight here right now...comparing to my LLAS right in front of me....the more "red" or "darker red" one of yours should be the real one (B)....from the last pics and the jacket spine. the more red colors are more in A in your first pics though - probably a Cam and light set-up?

here 2 pics of my LP (done with flashlight though, can do it on daylight if really wanted):

(http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/6615/llaslimulus1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/707/llaslimulus1.jpg/)

(http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/2295/llaslimulus2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/696/llaslimulus2.jpg/)

(http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/7078/llaslimulus3.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/94/llaslimulus3.jpg/)

just done the front cover under flash, poor camera though but you can see the difference
notice how Axl's face is overexposed on the right, and notice the colours in the writing
(http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd501/wadey1973/P070312_2044.jpg)

just compared the sky on yours (back cover) with the sky on mine A & B
if you notice on my pics, the sky on B is more white (like yours) but the sky on A is grey
damn these fakes are getting harder to spot

right, think ive got a accurate photo at last
A - top and B- bottom
and yes i believe B to be my original, i have owned it for years and years and its got the original import sticker (hiding under the piece of paper lol)
i have weighed both copies and these are the results
the Fake copy A weighs approx 210g       legit copy B weighs approx 194g     
the fake sleeve is way thicker and the vinyl doesnt flex as much as the original
the colors are pretty close to the original, but the writing on the fake is more pink - purple compared to red - orange of the original
if you were looking to buy one off ebay etc and saw this you would be pretty sure its original, luckily i already have a copy to compare against
damn these frikin fakes are getting better  :rant: :rant: :rant:         
             
(http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd501/wadey1973/P070312_2131.jpg)

my sealed LLAS copy weights approx 197g      :peace:

cooool !!! looks like i got 1 legit copy then  :peace:
i would advise anyone to ask for flash photo's when buying off the net though
they both look very very close under normal photo's, only with flash you can really see the difference  : ok:
guess the "sterling" stamp is out of the wndow now then, most people used that as a general guide

Hi wadey,

This is one of the best examples I've seen. Would you mind me updating the article with a few of these images and credit them to you?

Cheers for sharing. Now all folks need to know a copy is legit is side by side comparisons of the one they're buying vs a fake :p

Yes mate you can use what you need. You can include the weights also to highlight the thicker sleeve and heavier vinyl. But what gets me is the sterling stamp !!! Both sterling stamps are almost identical so the fakes are definately improving. As you can see from the pics the difference in colour varies depending on camera, angle, light etc but the fakes writing is more pink/purple compared to the orange/red of the original, and also the shadow of "live like a suicide" is a different shade on the fake if you look at the last pic i posted

edit: the fake i have weighs 210g and original weighs approx 196g
this would depend on wether its sealed and if the inner sleeve is paper or plastic, so there could be a slight variation with the 196g

glad to be of help at last though, we cant stop the fakes but if we can educate the fan base its a start  : ok:

ps.... would you have spotted the fake with the pics in my first post  ;)

I've had Live like a suicide for a few years and I have thought it was genuine. Til today when I read about WEIGHT!
Can people post the weight of the vinyl record alone, without plastic? My record alone weighs 127 grams whereas the GNR Lies (Manufactured in Germany) weighs 112 grams.

And, why is it always a comparison between the real one and the fake one, why not compare the real one with GNR Lies?
Another thing that may be of interest, judging on color isn't very safe. For example, here are 2 copies of GNR Lies (both German releases with unsensored girl inside), and also is my "live like a suicide" (which may be fake).

Notice the huge color difference even between the 2 German releases?
(http://djoman.dyndns.org/gnr/gnr_03.jpg)
(http://djoman.dyndns.org/gnr/gnr_02.jpg)
(http://djoman.dyndns.org/gnr/gnr_01.jpg)



Here is my Live Like A Suicide together with a GNR Lies (Germany).
Warmer tint compare to Lies, and darker. On the Lies photo, you can't see pure black anywhere in the photo, it's washed out.
Can someone help me find out? Has anyone taken photos of the LLAS together with their GNR Lies records?

(http://djoman.dyndns.org/gnr/gnr_04.jpg)


Can people post how much their vinyl record weighs alone (without sleeve/plastic, only the record itself)?

FOR REFERENCE: GNR Lies (Germany, unsensored)
(http://djoman.dyndns.org/gnr/gnr_05.jpg)

LIVE LIKE A SUICIDE (NOTE! This is probably a fake?)
(http://djoman.dyndns.org/gnr/gnr_06.jpg)

Please help fill in info on weight, and be clear about what it is you are weighing, record alone or complete with sleeve.
I bet weighing the record ONLY would give us more accurate guidelines.

Hey all.  Here is something I promised a long time ago:

http://www.troccolitm.com/llastape.html?1164261109609

Pictures of my sealed LLAS cassette!