Here Today... Gone To Hell!

Al-Qaeda leader Bin Laden 'dead'


Al-Qaeda founder and leader Osama Bin Laden is dead, according to US media reports citing officials.

The US is in possession of Bin Laden's body, the reports say. President Barack Obama is due to make a statement shortly.

Mr Bin Laden is top of the US most wanted list.

He is accused of being behind a number of atrocities, including the attacks on New York and Washington on 11 September 2001.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13256676 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13256676)





/jarmo

CNN
Congressional and administration officials tell CNN Osama bin Laden is dead. He was reportedly killed in Afghanistan.

http://twitter.com/CNN



/jarmo

Finally!!!!!Go U.S.!!!!!!!!!

so, you really see this as a ''U.S. vs. Terrorism'' thing?

im happy that that son of a bitch is dead, but there are some american leaders/former-leaders that deserve death too.

USA is not 100% the good and the taliban 100% the evil in all this thing. Don't be hypocrite.

We got to give peace a chance, really. Leave that cheap nationalism and start thinking about global justice and about peace.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/8471907/WikiLeaks-Guantanamo-Bay-terrorist-secrets-revealed.html

Oh wow, wasn't expecting to hear that.

Remember 9/11? We do.

Rot in hell Bin Laden.

Wow, the taliban most certainly is 100% evil. And I'm glad this piece of shit is finally dead.

With all due respect, it's not the time or place for a response like that.  I suggest you refrain from making any further posts of that sort.

Seconded

the world is a much better/safer place today.

ok, just be sure to give me a shout when the ''proper time'' to say what I think comes...

be happy living the illusion that ''us, americans, are the good, and we are here to save the world''.

i might live in the so called third world BUT at least, in my country, im allowed to speak my mind.


I do too.

But i also remember how the US leaded by its former president killed more than one million of innocent civilians in Irak. I also remember a whole lot of other things that the *good* US did in the name of *peace*  and *justice* that I wont mention because perhaps this is *not the place or the time*...

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/apr2010/bara-a03.shtml

oh really?  ???

Would you honour me with an explanation?

If anything, the world has become a bit more dangerous today.

Just my toughts. They only killed the leader of a terroristic organization, not the organization by itself. Keep in mind that there are a lot of nutcases left who are ready to take revenge for the death of their leader.

Yeah... there was never proof Bin Laden was behind the 9/11 attacks... If you want to prove me wrong go ahead. This doesn't mean that I wasn't horrified by 9/11 (it's my birthday actually) and all the lives lost in the process.

I just don't think the official story is so credible, but hey... glad he's dead... if that's the case.

10 years, 2 wars, 919,967 deaths & $1,188,263,000,000 later, they managed to kill one person. I hope it was worth it.

I think, it's time we withdraw and make our way home.  The country is broke and morally bankrupt--lol 

I think it's time we come home and clean up our own house.  Quit sending jobs over seas, quit buying so many products from other countries, get our nose out of every bodies business, we have shit to deal with here.  The rest of the world pretty much hates the US.  They're glad we show up to throw money at their problems but I don't think that helps, besides we're broke.  We need to come home and focus on what were doing before we can be of help to anybody else, not that they want it any way.

Thank God, and God bless all those Americans who are celebrating today.  :love:

I know this has been a long time coming, and it's still not over in terms of defeating terrorism. But I don't think anyone can argue, that this evil person had to be taken out as soon as the opportunity arouse.

I want to buy the soldier who killed him a whole crate of beers.  ;D

But seriously, thank you to the American troops and ultimately Obama who gave the green light for this action.

 :beer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3R3FOsqi6GE&feature=feedu

Is the photo a fake????

You're just being completely disrespectful.  If you want to continue to do so, then I guess it is the proper time.  Do what you do, if it makes you feel better.  I'd rather not read that nonsense though, so I'd rather you start a "I hate America" thread, and I'll be sure and stay out of that one because I could care less what you think.

Pretty sad.

Obviously the money spent and lives lost over the last 10 years is indeed really sad.  But we'll see if it was worth it in the end.  If the loss of Bin Laden limits and ultimately levels Al Qaeda and terrorism in general, then I'd say it was absolutely worth it.  And regardless, for all the victims and people associated with 9/11, it was worth it to see the mastermind behind the whole thing meet his fate.

This is a pretty good article breaking the mission down, describing how it went.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0511/54093.html

Great day for the whole world.  It shows nobody is untouchable.  The fact that he was still breathing was an inspiration to so many that followed him and a complete insult to those who lost loved ones.  While this does not end the war on terror, it does bring a man responsible for killing 3,000 Americans in one day to justice.  It is sad that I have already seen the same old fucking bullshit in this thread with people making this a political debate, but what else is new?  Good job by Barack Obama.

Remember Al Qaida under Bin Laden also killed people terror attacks in England, Spain, Africa, Bali, etc. So this is not just good news for the USA.

Absolutely, like Bodhi said, it's a great day for the WHOLE WORLD!  And as Obama pointed out, Bin Laden had killed many Muslims as well.  So this truly is a great day for the whole world.

Agreed.  This is great news for the entire world.  Of course, Al Qaida will remain a threat, but this hurts them.  Innocent lives were saved as a result of this creep's death and, for those already lost, justice was served.  

This could be a game changer with the morale in Al Qaida.

Hopefully this takes us a step closer to getting our guys out of Afghanistan.

Al-Qaeda's remaining leaders

After 11 September 2001, the US issued a list of suspected al-Qaeda leaders. Many have now been captured or killed, including Osama Bin Laden, while some new names have emerged.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-11489337 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-11489337)





/jarmo

"Good" numbers my friend.

-------------


Do you remember that USA is probably* the most dangerous tyrant in the world? I do. As my country (and all the world) does.

*I don't want this post getting deleted so I emphasize "probably".
------

I'm reading a lot of people being happy about this and make USA look as the "victim" and feeling bad about USA for all the 9/11 thing (don't wanna misconceptions...I do not support that)

My question is what they feel about USA killing civilians around the world, blocking Cuba since decades, being on the top of the global pollution that's killing us, implating military dictatorships in Latin America in the '70's, being behind every single move against real democracy in South America and a-long-and-sad etc.

Terrorism is far from good. But USA clearly is not a victim.


But...oh!...I forgot people eats what CNN put in his plates: USA is the savior.  ;) . Lot of cynicism and hypocresy in the air...

This is actually one thing Dems and GOP agree on

http://politics.blogs.foxnews.com/2011/05/02/potential-white-house-candidates-praise-obama-after-ubl-s-death (http://politics.blogs.foxnews.com/2011/05/02/potential-white-house-candidates-praise-obama-after-ubl-s-death)

Could not agree more...


All these ungrateful fucks who are trashing the US would be begging for the help... If all of these countries hate us so much, why are they our allies?

Esteban, Ulises, you know damn well if your countries were being attacked the USA would be right there to help... You fucks wouldn't be bitching then would you?

estaban and ulises,  I would like you to name one country that has done more to help the rest of the world than America.  Name me one country that has given MORE money or aid to other countries when they need it most.  Just one....

Oh wait they cant!  : ok:

thats what I mean, calling America the most dangerous tyrant in the world is completely fucking stupid.  Is America perfect?  Of course not.  But they do more to help the rest of the world than any other country on this planet.

if you dont demand it, its not help. Latin America DONT need your home-made presidents, we dont need you to tell us how we should rule our countries. And I cant remember what have you done for our region, other than trying to separate us. I do remember the help you provided to England regarding falklands, for example. What does Falkland got to do with the US? No one knows. But you still put your nose there, and everywhere you consider there's a $$$ reason to put it.

And if you think the US ''gives money or aid to other countries because they are all good and they want the best for the world'' you're being too naive.

Remember Hiroshima. Remember the 1.000.000+ innoncent civilians killed in Irak. Think about the numbers of deaths. You're #1 in the historic ranking. Im pretty fucking curious about what the US colleges teach to the american students in a subject like ''history''... are you really learning you're the ''world saviors''?

Good to know Osama is dead. I personally will wait for a sentence of life imprisonment to George W. Bush to go out to the street to celebrate.

I don't want to start an argument with you guys.


United States acts with hidden intentions. USA always acts looking for advantage (in some way, it's valid since it's all politics but it's not real help).


Yes, they could give you money but with ridiculous interests. Yes, they could give you money but at the same time saying: "I'll give you money if you do what I say". We all know that's the way USA acts. USA helps when is convinient and advisable.

So...if we're talking about *help*...oh yeah, USA helps. If we're talking about *disinterested help* (the real help, the help that really counts)...well...  :confused: .

But hey, you think "white", I think "black". We won't never agree because you're in the gold chair, you're sitting on the center of the empire and I'm just a third-world-guy in a country who was pretty seriosly damaged in the history because of certainly USA's foreign policies.


If you come to me and ask for money and I say "Ok...i'll give you the money you asking me for but you have to give me your kidney"...it is something you'd call "HELP"?. And "give money" is not all...sometimes countries don't want money, they want RESPECT.

Think about it, guys.

Many Americans have issues with all that.  Just as many of those same Americans take pride in the USA's positive contributions to the world.  But what does any of that have to do with capturing and killing bin Laden?  As has been mentioned, he was responsible for terrorist attacks that have killed scores of innocents in many countries, not just the US.  So American forces eliminate him and your response is basically 'America sucks'?  I don't get it.  

That's typical: "If you don't think 100% like me, you're against me".

Man...once again...i'm not saying "United States sucks" (I'll never say "America"...America is the entire fuckin' continent) and I do not support Bin Laden . I'm just saying that USA are far from being a hero or something like that. You've caused a lot of damage in ALL the history to A LOT of countries...I don't like Bin Laden but we're talking about a terrorist and a country who sometimes acts like one...

Reminds me of the man who asked me if I spoke any other languages besides English at the Montevideo airport. I told him "Finnish and Swedish!".  ;D

He didn't wanna speak English because it reminded him of the USA and all the innocent people they have killed.

I told him English is from England. That didn't matter, England is bad too.


Ironically he spoke Spanish.

Spain colonized most of South America and did what? Yeah, killed innocent people....


I guess he should learn Finnish...  :hihi:






/jarmo

I'm sure Al-Qaida's new #1 is pretty irate over his recent promotion, unfortunately I think we should expect an attempt  at a revenge terror attack. 

You sound like all of that was just for fun  :confused:

BTW not nearly 1 Million innocent civilians have been killed in Iraq.... But hey if it makes you feel better, just go ahead and add some extra zeroes

Well there was no good reason for the Iraq war really....

Give me good reasons then.

What was US's reason to participate in the WWII and to use a massive destruction weapon against Japan TWICE?

What is the reason for the Iraq war?

I insist: there is no other country in the world that has caused more deaths and destruction than the US.


whatever the real number is, its a lot more than the number of deaths caused in 9/11.

please, understand what my point is: im HAPPY to know Osama is dead. That's justice. But it's not complete yet. Bush must live the rest of his life in jail. And many other american leaders/european leaders too. This is not a war between good and evil. This is a war between two different kinds of evil. The only victims here are US/Iraq civilians.

So explain me what's the reason of throwing two massive destructive bombs to a country VIRTUALLY RETIRED FROM WAR. Maybe "revenge" for Pearl Harbor? Cool...good reason... . Not valid, though.

And, as chineseblues said: there was no good reason for the Iraq war really... . In fact there was: OIL. And when in the next years you look for water...your nice and lovely missiles will aim to us  :) .

WHAT A FUN AND SAFE WORLD! THANKS USA!

You should brush up on your WW2 history - 2 Atomic bombs were dropped so we did not have to invade Mainland Japan, saving tens of thousands of US soldiers lives and finally end the fighting. Japan did not retire from war. They were ready to fight to the death.

As far as the oil is concerned in Iraq it is pretty obvious we did not get any of it.

I'll agree with ya about the Iraq war, but WWII is an entirely different matter. The US and the rest of the world was fighting the Nazi's when Japan attacked the US for no reason what so ever. What was the US suppose to do? Sit back and do nothing? I'm sorry but what happened in WWII was completely justifiable.

Not that we needed another reason to confirm he was a scumbag:

Bin Laden used wife as shield:
Osama bin Laden used women as human shields as American forces fired on him in Pakistan on Sunday, White House counterterrorism adviser John Brennan said.

Brennan told reporters at the White House that women were ?put in front of him as a shield.? He said that ?speaks to, I think, the nature of the individual he was.?

One of the women was bin Laden's wife, Brennan said.

"She served as a shield," he said. "She was positioned in a way that indicated she was being used as a shield."

Brennan called Obama's decision to go after bin Laden one of the ?gutsiest calls? in recent history at the White House, and he said that Obama?s chief concern was the safety of the Americans involved in the attack.
http://www.politico.com/politico44/perm/0511/firing_on_osama_448de02d-06b6-41d2-a611-0305538f59c5.html (http://www.politico.com/politico44/perm/0511/firing_on_osama_448de02d-06b6-41d2-a611-0305538f59c5.html)

^ Those special ops guys are incredible.  To go in and do that (without any Pakistan official knowing), having a helicopter stall and still not losing a drop of blood is beyond amazing.

Anyway, while Al Qaeda and other terrorist threats are obviously not going to just go away now, I think the threat they held since the 90s up until recent years is a thing of the past.  Younger generations are realizing that a lot more can be accomplished by not blowing yourself up, as evidenced in Egypt. 

I just made this my Facebook status.

Thanks. : ok:

You need to brush up on your history, I have NO idea where you came up with this.  No wonder you hate America so much it's because you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about. 

How low. World War 2 stories now...



You're using a topic about the killing of a person who helped materialize the killing thousands of innocent people all over the world to "prove" to everybody how evil the USA is?

Nice of you.



I don't agree with everything the USA does, or any other country for that matter (including harboring known nazi war criminals after World War 2)...

I do remember that after the attacks in the USA in September 2001, most of the world was united against terrorism. It seems like the war in Iraq has made some people forget that.






/jarmo

Yay, God bless America, the most inept country when it comes to war.

Ten years to find one person, and yet they kill many others getting to that one person who is not now even a threat, and they kill him when they did not need to, spiting those who wanted him tried for his crimes.

What can one say.

Nuclear weapons were unneccesary. It was a lazy option that killed too many people, including many people from Europe that worked there.

Given what had come before, it was not cool.

It's easy to criticize shit decades later.

It was a world war.

The British bombed the shit out of Germany, killing civilians too...

Does anybody mind that? Not really.

The war ended, Hitler was dead.




He wasn't a threat? Says who?

Sure, he was in hiding, trying to stay alive. He was still the poster boy for that whole organization and inspired many more who share his sick views.


Just like they're still bringing people to justice for the war crimes they committed decades ago (for example in former Yugoslavia), the same way they should go after these extremists. Time doesn't matter.



/jarmo

We are all united. That's clear. Everybody in the world (except the taliban and maybe some other fundamentalist groups) is HAPPY to see Bin Laden dead.

Killing Bin Laden is an important step to stop Al Qaeda. Its not enough, but it was probably the biggest step. Today is a great day in terms of the fight against worldwide terrorism, and we all agree and are united in this.

BUT i wont buy the cheap nationalism some of the american guys here and the ones celebrating in front of the white house profess. I wont buy the story of a ''good side called US'', ''an evil side called Al Qaeda'' and a ''defenseless rest of the world who needs the good-old USA to save their asses''. Thats american bullshit only americans can buy.

Americans bring back memories depending on how useful they are for their arguments. Talking about 9/11 is acceptable. Talking about Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Vietnam, Iraq, Cuba, etc is not. All these episodes involves HUMAN DEATHS.

And there is no other country in the world who caused more deaths than the USA. Divide history from 1900 to now in decades: USA will be #1 in the ranking in all of them.

Funny. That's exactly how that old man at the airport in Montevideo thought.

"It's ok, I speak the language of a country who colonized most of this continent and killed a lot of people, but it happened before 1900 so it's ok!"

 :hihi:





/jarmo

I agree that collateral damage in the form of civilian deaths should never be something you just shrug off.  But take a look at what happened in this case.  The most wanted terrorist in the world was hiding out in a residential neighborhood in a sovereign country.  A small force went in and took him out without neighboring homes losing as much as even a chip of paint.  That is nothing short of an incredible act of counterterrorism and should be a model going forward (which is why they have to be careful about releasing too many details in the form of video).

Whether or not he was a threat anymore is irrelevant, he WAS responsible for 9/11 and was brought to justice.  We have no way of knowing how much of a threat he was, only the government knows that.

Yes, America has been responsible for a lot of deaths, but a lot of them were as a result of being attacked in the first place.  Aside from Vietnam and the Iraq War, the USA was provoked were they not?  You are acting as if the US just started bombing countries at random just for fun.

Death is a terrible thing.  Nobody wants war, and nobody is happy to see people die.  Unfortunately we do not live in a peaceful world.  But to say America is mostly responsible for that is just crazy.

Pyrrhic victory anyone?

that implies that another victory such as this will result in defeat, so I am going to have to say no.  America can do this 100 more times and still be standing.  It is also not a "victory."  Al Qaeda is not dead, one leader from the group is.

Basically, you're happy it happened, you just wish someone other than an American pulled the trigger.  Any consolation, there's a good chance the gunman had Spanish ancestry.


Guess which one of those memories you listed has something to do with bin Laden.


Source?

Well I think had they captured him alive he would have been brought to justice. Now he's just dead, which to the terrorists means he is now a martyr resting in heaven with 71 virgins or whatever. At least if he was alive he would have to face charges for what he did.

Sorry, but I cant find the fun. I cant find it in my words, I cant find it in yours.

Cant understand what ''languages'' have to do with all this neither.

Yes, i know your intention is to make southamericans (you mentioned Uruguay, not Malaysia or India) look like ignorant fundamentalists, like barbarians invading your civilized world. But trust me you're miserably failing.

Justice has been made: Bin Laden is dead. Now its Bush's turn. He must pay too (but obviously, he will not be ''shot in a counter-terrerorism procedure''... ha! he's american!: he will be penally judged like all human beings!)

Im not related with spain or spaniards. Sorry to take down your incredibly childish argument (oh my god... ).

PS: if you're gonna import someone else's argument, do it from someone offering a good one. Jarmo's one is ridiculous and have no basis at all.

If you're going to state things as fact, post a source...

Nope. I have no problems with South Americans. Or any other Americans, or non-Americans for that mater.

I don't base my opinion on people on where they were born.


I found it somewhat amusing that just like other extremists, this person had made up his mind.

It didn't matter to him that ENGLISH has very little to do with USA, the language originated somewhere else. But to him, it reminded him of the evil USA and that was enough. He had his mind made up.

His own language obviously didn't remind him of the horrible things the Spanish had done hundreds of years earlier.

If it had, maybe he would be speaking Finnish... ;) That's humor by the way. I don't think Finland is better than any other place. If you wanna insult Finland go ahead. I couldn't care less. :)


Now, over a year later, I see the same exact thinking here. "The USA is the worst if you use the formula that fits my agenda".

I'm not saying it's right or wrong. All I'm saying that it's deja vu! Seen it before!




The one failing is you. As soon as something even remotely negative is said about your region, you take it as an personal insult and try to make me seen as some kind of racist scum. Better think again.


There's something a bit comical about having some random old man start spewing his hatred against the USA to me only because I speak English and not Spanish...

Don't you worry, I don't think everybody in South America is that way. :)



Just like I don't blame the entire population of the USA for their foreign policy. Not everyone there agrees with everything their government does either....



/jarmo

He knows everything, and the rest of us are ridiculous.

Doesn't need a source.

Come on!



I learned this ages ago...  :hihi:





/jarmo

emmm, you really think im ''all alone'' in this? You really think i'll consider i'm all alone because of a bunch of americans posting ''america is da man'' in a GNR message board?

Want to see some pictures? Want to hear the voices of millions of people around the globe talking about bush's government?

Taking what is said in this forum as a worldwide tendency is exactly the same ostrichs do: hiding the head in a hole.

What do you want me to proove that you need a source? You really need a ''link'' to acknowledge the fact the USA has caused more deaths than any other country in the world?

Im so sorry you cant live with the fact that many many people in the world dont agree with the historic US imperialism that has hurt humanity a lot more than Al Qaeda.

Here you have some proofs that i'm not alone at all. Justice with Bin Laden has been made. Now its turn for Bush.

http://www.impeachbush.org/images/content/pagebuilder/veterans-indict-bush-banner.jpg
http://www.takeoverworld.info/images/Bush_Engineered_9-11_Banner.jpg
http://newsgrist.typepad.com/photos/grand_central_station/banner1.JPG
http://www.paperpk.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/bush-banner.jpg
http://th49.photobucket.com/albums/f296/zoltar666/th_bush_jail.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3336/3228069274_f6821bb23e.jpg
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2007/03/13/bush372.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3004/2922094785_51082f6009.jpg
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/images/2008/01/09/bush_hate_hamas.jpg
http://images.wikia.com/wikiality/images/4/4d/Brazilian%27ForaBush%27Banner.jpg
http://www.freakinsweet.com/images/burning_bush/burning_bush_banner.jpg
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38960000/jpg/_38960337_sydney203afpbody.jpg
http://www.sspglenrothes.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/G8Gleneagles/Bush-banner01.jpg
http://www.actagainsttorture.org/img11Jan2008/impeach_bush_wcw.jpg
http://www.quelapaseslindo.com.ar/wp-content/uploads/fuera_bush.jpg
http://uploads.blogia.com/blogs/j/ja/jaq/jaquematepress/upload/20070324035444-fuera-bush.jpg
http://www.losblogueros.net/mt-weblog/fotos/fuera%20bush.jpg
http://uruguay.indymedia.org/uploads/2007/02/fuera_bush.jpg
http://www.radio36.com.uy/imagenes/2007/02/14/Gobierno%20de%20Bush%20.gif
http://www.esacademic.com/pictures/eswiki/70/Fuera-Bush-PO.jpg
http://www.izquierdasocialista.org.ar/es/058/bush.jpg
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/9167/bushfuerajb5.jpg
http://www.radio36.com.uy/imagenes/2007/03/06/fuera%20bush_arr2.jpg
http://www.mujeresaloeste.org.ar/no_bush2.gif
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/37/110889417_b037635f58_m.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_9lWDuIAYW6c/R9AAEQDltiI/AAAAAAAAAAs/y2tIKimYdyk/S259/Fuera+Bush+asesino.bmp
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z168/vozrebelde/070311-FueraBushDeColombia-13.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_W2tiqcNtimI/R8eVNfaOo6I/AAAAAAAAAA4/gaEgtf2QVPw/S240/fuera%2BBush!!!.jpg
http://www.soberania.org/Images/george_bush_and_adolf_hitler_same_shit.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_HSQqEHdYGAA/SSpRpqT7IqI/AAAAAAAAAEk/CWyBhGtAf5c/s320/4.jpg

its comments like this that make it impossible to take you seriously.

US isn't perfect, sure we've had our black eyes like a lot of other countries, slavery being number 1 the Native Americans number 2, but I don't think the US have ever intentionally murdered innocent people. has it happened? unfortunately yes but I think those that say the US should mind their own business need to remember what happened back in the 1930's when we minded our own business and a certain evil bastard named Hitler almost ruled the entire eastern world.

I know.

And once again, what does it have to do with what happened about a day ago?

We get it, you don't agree with the US foreign policy.

But this topic isn't about that! When will you get it?

You're just using this topic to post the same shit over and over again.


I wasn't a fan of GWB or his policies. I was glad Obama was elected.








Does that make terrorist networks the "good guys"?





/jarmo

Ok, great. I knew from moment zero this topic was not about US foreign policy.

I just reacted after a post by someone who made all this thing look as a ''USA vs The Evil'' which I think its bullshit.

End of off-topic, I promise.

US is responsible in a...let's say...75%, 80% for that. US spread violence and opression for many many years to all the globe.

To name a few: the "Manifest Destiny" (I heard shit about Lebensraum but nobody says nothing about "Manifest Destiny") , "The Monroe Doctrine"and Rossevelt's actions invoking that doctine (simple: central and south america total domination), the big stick, etc. etc. and many military ocupations though history (Haiti, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Cuba), the interference in the politics of many countries, the interference in many war where YOU HAD NOTHING TO DO THERE (Oh...wait...no...you were guaranteeing peace and democracy...go...how ass am I?!), the imposition of politics and economic doctrines around the globe, etc. etc., etc. . You spread violence for so many years...

You think you own the world and that's simply disgusting. You don't know where many countries are in the map (because of your fuckin and big ego) but we, the poor guys, knows about everything and we haven't been brainwashed. We don't buy your stories and your lies.

But...well..this is not about what Ulises think about US, is about Bin Laden being dead and we all celebrate that. But we celebrate because a dangerous terrorist dissapear from the face of the earth, not because "the guy who attacked US is dead". Never hear about "you get what you give"? Well...take a look on that.

Did anyone see what that video was "anything goes" posted?, was it crap or what?.  :-\ (It's taken down now)

So it turns out that the US might have took some DNA, to prove that it was Bin Laden. But I think it would have been better all round if they took a photo, as conspiracy theorists are always going to claim that DNA isn't enough and that they should have took a picture before dumping the body.  :nervous:

EXCLUSIVE: Video Inside Bin Laden's Lair

ABC News obtains exclusive footage inside Osama bin Laden's Abbottabad compound.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/osama-bin-laden-dead-inside-pakistan-kill-site-13507839

Osama Bin Laden Dead- Graphic Footage Inside Bin Laden`s Compound, 2011

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1bwf0RnDsM

Problems usually start when somebody thinks they're better than somebody else...

I'm not part of the "poor guys", I know geography.

I still don't know anything according to your way of thinking.

Apparently only people in certain areas of the world know shit!

What the fuck is up with that way of thinking...



Ignorance doesn't discriminate. It's global.



By the way, it's a bit naive to talk about people in USA like they know nothing. First off, the person you think is a "stupid American" might be an immigrant from Argentina. For example!

Secondly, it's not very clever to assume the people you are talking to here have no clue about anything. You don't know them. You have a stereo type and you assume the whole country is like that.


You should know better.






/jarmo

Maybe I generalized, yes, my mistake.

But I wasn't trying to say what you think (i,e, "Apparently only people in certain areas of the world know shit!" and stuff) . Maybe because my english is very poor and sometimes it is hard to explain some things I want to say. I'll work on that.

I agree with both sides of the argument here...  :-X

I think it's obvious that alot of Western countries have alot to answer for in regards to killing innocent people, whether it's indirectly or behind a form of "politics" that we will never hear of, because "they" don't want us too.

In short there's alot of things going on in the world, that us civilians can't even begin to comprehend. And yes I agree, that countries like the US, UK and other westernised societys, have injured or killed people in the name of oil, foreign interests and nuclear planning.

The Taliban are evil and so was Bin Laden, and it was right for him to be killed on the spot, same with any other terrorist. An organisation that promotes evil, deserves to be wiped out, in whatever manner. And I really do believe that this is a big blow for the Taliban, and they really are "wounded" by this.

But regarding what esteban, Ulises and jarmo are debating. I can't argue against either, because alot of things that esteban has said does make sense. But I'm not going to entertain people by trying to explain it, because I don't think anyone really has a clue what goes on behind closed doors in countrys like the US and UK. I don't think anyone can argue against some people forming the opinion that "we" are just as bad as countrys in the middle-east.

There's alot of propaganda, secrets and lies involved. And we will never really know what has gone on or whats behind the inner workings of the world, in which we as civilians have no control over.


"There's Alot Goin On"  :yes:

some random points...

- a large majority of the people celebrating in front of the White House are totally against the war in Iraq. Americans do not blindly follow everything the country does; quite the opposite actually.

- America has been fighting Al Qaeda non-stop for several years, in some ways even before 9/11. we have made tons of progress against terrorism overall, and have killed/captured several other top leaders.

- America goes to great lengths to limit civilian deaths. its really fuckin insulting to compare america to terrorist organizations.

- don't hold your breath on Bush being tried for war crimes. he is living a very comfortable and happy life. and he is celebrating as much as anyone regarding the news of bin laden's death.

- can we just start a "i hate america" thread? this way topics can stay on point. i read this thread to discuss bin laden being killed, not the US being a terrorist nation.
 

I suggested the "I hate America" thread on page 1, but nobody took the lead.  Instead we have to read the anti-American BS here.  Give it a rest guys.  That's not what this thread is for.  I strongly suggest you go elsewhere.  Esteban posted plenty of links where you can click on and relish in hating America.  Go there, please.

As for Bush, I've heard this war crimes argument many times before, even from some Americans.  Listen, I'll admit, and most Americans will admit.  The Iraq war was unnecessary and will be viewed as such historically.  But you have to understand that Bush was put in an awful situation.  He was in office when the worst act of terrorism in history was carried out on American soil.  America was shaken, and many Americans were outraged and demanded instant retaliation.  We were led to believe that Iraq was a threat, with the rumored WMD's.  Now, the information that we heard made it seem completely rationale to go to war with Iraq, but it turned out that most of that information just didn't turn out to be true.  I'm of the belief that George W. himself believed the information he was given to be true.  It wasn't, so it was a bad miscalculation.  I don't believe he just went to war for the hell of it, knowing there was no real reason to, just so he could kill a bunch of innocent Iraqi's.

And let's not even begin to compare people killed in WAR, to the people killed on 9/11.  The Iraq war, whether you agree with it or not, it's WAR.  People know going in the risks, and that there's going to be lives lost.  The people that boarded the planes or went to work in the WTC on 9/11 had no way of knowing that they were in any danger.  So please, give it a F'ing rest with these ridiculous comparisons.

Again, start your anti-American thread and Ulises, Esteban, mysteron, and whoever else can go and have a blast with each other there.  I'll stay as far away as possible.  We'll all be better off.  Please, do us all a favor. 

recomended read here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/pamela-gerloff/the-psychology-of-revenge_b_856184.html

I have only made it to this post in the thread so far.. but I had to stop to comment : that is priceless!!! ;D

my friend posted this quote on FB last night, food for thought

?Joyfully celebrating the killing of a killer who joyfully celebrated killing carries an irony that I hope will not be lost on us. Are we learning anything, or simply spinning harder in the cycle of violence?? - Brian McLaren

I believe this quote was originally from Michael Moore on his Twitter.  Thank him.

Are you serious?  USA is not the "good side" and Al Qaeda the "bad side".  Al Qaeda is responsible for a lot of terrorism around the world, probably the worst of which happened on American soil.  It was bound to happen that someone would eventually bring the alleged leader down.  Could possibly have been any country/leader.  It just so happened it was the US Navy.  That doesn't make the USA the victor here.   I don't feel it was a victory for the USA, but for the entire world.  I'm an American and I don't feel that there is a ''defenseless rest of the world who needs the good-old USA to save their asses''.  I think that's bullshit that, sadly, you think.  And I'm very sorry if people from other countries really feel that way.  That's their own making, not ours.  Just because I'm from America, I don't feel that I'm from a nation that is better than any other.  Not at all.     

Why be bitter about it?     

Can I just state my opinion? I don't mourn the death of Bin laden, in fact if anything I'm relieved that a dangerous mass murderer won't be able to plot any more attacks against innocent civilians. But at the same time, I really don't feel the need to go out and celebrate his death. I was shocked when I saw people in muslim countries celebrating the death of thousands of civilians after 9/11, but do we really have to lower ourselves to the same barbaric level? If I was an american, I would go to the cemetery and light candles for the civilian victims of 9/11 and the 10 years of war and madness that followed, rather than grab a case of beer in one hand and a flag in the other and go get wasted. That's my two cents. Hope you understand.

I get so sick and fucking tired of the "I hate America" speech. I am an Aussie with absolutely no ties to the US but I find it has become a trend and such a cliche to hate America.
The majority of fuckwits i speak to who hate America have no idea why they hate it, they just do because a bunch of other clueless, bandwagon riding, morons hate America too.
Give it a rest, racist cunts!

Pretty stoked about osama being killed!!!!

Totally right and totally understood. I think it's a small amount of people that are actually celebrating in that way.  Unfortunately, that's what's pictured on the news. Do you really think that is a true representation of every American?  No, it's not.   I think that the majority, even in America, feel the same as you.  It would be strange to celebrate a death, I think, but some people do and that makes news.  I think most, however, feel the same relief as you, and feel a tremendous sadness for all the death that happened 10 yrs ago (and way before that) and has resulted.

I usually agree with much of what Michael Moore says and he has a much better insight into things than what I do, because he takes the time to study and look at things way more so than most of us ever would or could.  Yes, there's been a lot of time, deaths, and money involved, which I don't agree with, either-just because I'm a US citizen doesn't mean I support everything that is done-does anyone really think I or many other Americans like all that?  And one person was brought down (that he claims we trained in terrorism to begin with).  It's all horrible, and I wish the whole world weren't like it is.  But what is any of us going to do about it?  So, we go on and are relieved that the "leader" of all this was brought down.  That's one small step.  No matter what, though, it's not done.    

Divide history from 1800 to now.


What was the reason why thousands of Indians (the original population of the U.S) where slaughtered and how do you justify this?

Money and land : plain and simple.


edit : and labour . After too many natives were killed in Central America by the spanish, they would stop in Africa to pick up slaves before coming over.

Im still in shock, its been a long time I didnt think theyd get him, so awesome

I've thought about that and I can see your point.  I too was aghast at the sites of people in Afghanistan celebrating the destruction of 9/11. 

HOWEVER, I think these two things are drastically different.  THEY were celebrating the fact that 1000's of people were killed in the most horrific act of terrorism (cowardice) in world history.  They were celebrating an entire country being weakened.  They were burning American flags, etc. 

Americans were celebrating the death of ONE man.  This was not about Afghanistan, Pakistan, the Middle East, Islam.  This was about killing ONE man who orchestrated 9/11 and many other atrocities all across the world over the past few decades.

Surely, you can see the difference.

Exactly! well stated.

there were muslim bastards celebrating here in the U.S.! they were basically celebrating deaths of innocent civilians. the U.S. is celebrating the death of a man many believe to be the most evil in the world. the man who was largely responsible for significant pain and stress inflicted against us. and for almost 10 years we had to see his smug face on TV describing how he will do it again!

so yeah, celebrating his death is slightly different.

and IMO, the same celebrations would have been going on if we had captured him alive. finding him and bringing him to justice has been on the agenda for almost 10 years. the person viewed as the individual most responsible for the horror of 9/11 and potential future horror had to brought to justice. and we finally got him. dead or alive, those celebrations would have taken place. so it wasn't so much that he was dead, rather it was that he was brought to justice.

this is why Obama said bringing him to justice remains a top priority. and he got it done!

Good math!!!!. I can't believe the justifications i'm reading these days.

^ Their point was that celebrating the death of a mass murderer is not the moral equivalent of celebrating the murder of innocent civilians.  You actually disagree with that point?

That makes two of us Ulises. I can't believe the anti-American sentiments being spewed in this thread. Unprovoked, I might add. You guys have made this into a US sucks thread, when that's clearly not what this is about.

And I wasn't trying to give a math lesson with my previous post. I'm afraid you missed the point if that's what you took out of it.

I'm not saying US sucks, I don't hate America and as I said before I'm relieved that Bin laden can't hurt anyone anymore. I'm just saying that celebrating anyones death just seems wrong to me, that's all. It's like celebrating the excercise of violence rather than the end of it.

That's just my opinion, don't take it personally.

Had Bin Laden given up as soon as the troops arrived, there would have been zero bloodshed... The headlines would have read "Bin Laden captured and in US custody"....  The reaction and crowds would have been the same, celebrating the END, and not the violence.... It just turned out Bin Laden forced his hand that night, and got his ass shot

This is kind of wild...first on Twitter:

Two Pakistanis provided Twitter followers first accounts of Bin Laden raid

Sohaib Athar and Mohsin Shah were unaware at the time that the unusual helicopter flybys, copter crash and explosion they described in tweets were part of the fatal attack on the Al Qaeda leader.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-bin-laden-tweets-20110503,0,2868654.story

Bin Laden death first reported on Twitter

Keith Urbahn, the former chief of staff for Donald Rumsfeld, the former U.S. defence secretary under President George W. Bush, was the one who leaked one of the biggest news scoops of the century. And the media outlet he used to reveal the news wasn't a respectable news agency or newspaper; it was himself, through Twitter.

http://calgary.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20110502/osama-bin-laden-death-twitter-urbahn-110502/20110502/?hub=CalgaryHome

It seems like the US is getting ready to release a picture of Bin Laden, as they just announced that obviously the pictures they took are gruesome. So I expect to see a picture surface in the next 1-2 days, and I think it's the right thing to do personally.  :confused:

Well i hate to burst your bubble here but we have intentionally killed innocent people. I know this because a friend who is a former marine was a laser guide for missles during missons in Kosovo in the 90s. One of the missions he had to do was missle guiding for an orphange because Milosivich had installed a weapon system on the roof.

What kind of scumbag wold put a weapon system on the roof? Again the price of war

Just read "cowardice" .

Boy! Burst into a house with the most amazing military equipment in the world, and kill an unarmed man (and yes, i know he was an awful person) is so fuckin' brave! My god! It's epic.


The best thing to do is capture Bin Laden and judge him. But no...the savior from the north of America preffered to kill him. That's not justice, that's revenge. That's not civilized, that's savagery.

i will admit, seeing all those people on TV just kinda... i dont know the word for it but i thought it was a bit beneath our dignity to be honest.

shouldn't be used as an excuse to party and get drunk...... All those innocent lives are still lost.

Agree with you 10000000%.


Good read:

"it's as simple and as complicated as this, rejoicing over anybodys death is uncivilised. Thats our big thing, isn't it? Civility, being the standard bearers for civility on as opposed to the barbarians in whatever other part of the world we happen to be at loggerheads with at Iany given time.

It's like this, a guys a murderer, thats our gripe with him mainly, the fact that he ordered or orchestrated the death of lots of people and rejoiced in it. So then where does that leave us when we rejoice over his dead body? How different does that make us from those that burn and stomp the union jack or the stars and stripes. Moral high ground, or some degree of moral high ground is immediately surrendered when you rejoice over a corpse.

First of all, the achievement is purely symbolic. Bin Laden was not the birth of terrorism and his death will not be the end of it. Essentially an icon has been killed. You do not defeat human will through acts of force, it simply isn't possible, you defeat it through addressing the issues that guide and direct the will in question.

Maybe it's just me but if my mother or father were killed...or friend or family member, i might believe that justice was served by that person being dead but i don't think i'd rejoice. I don't think i COULD rejoice. I mean, the problem here is that some near and dear to me is dead. To rejoice over the dead body of their murderer i think is a disservice to the memory of the dead. Like its all OK now, like the horror and tragedy of their death has been nullified and is suddenly grounds for jubilation now that the person responsible for their death has been killed, it just seems so crooked.

And it's not even about respect for the dead, if a dead mans a cunt call him a cunt but to be happy that someones dead? Ain't in me i'm afraid and i'm of the opinion that it is symptomatic of the general moral decay of society and in effect, part of the problem with the world we live in, it's why we have sickos and terrorism etc because quite frankly, we meet sickos and terrorists half way, we believe in their rationale, the notion of righteous murder and the celebration of murder as a function of justice.

We ain't evens, it ain't OK now, we ain't balanced the fucking slate, those people are still fucking dead. Justice? Whaddya mean justice?!?! It's OK now, it's just, the deaths that have happened post 9/11 were just one death (Bin Ladens) away from being OK, noooo, noo fuckin way, thats a cop out, total fucking cop out.

There are no victors in war. Bin Laden is dead and if you think we are any the better off for it, if the human race is at all closer to some sort of equilibrium or peace as a result of one dead Arab on the outskirts of Islamabad you're mistaken.

And as far as his being a coward, i agree but not for the reasons epoused in a previous post by someone, that he was living in a mansion and not in the mountains or wherever. The fact is Bin Laden fought, Bin Laden fought on the front line as a mujahid against the soviets and was injured whilst fighting, Bin Laden was far from a coward in the way someone who fears war is a coward...Bin Laden is a coward because he DEMANDED war (yes that's possible).

Mourn the deaths of the innocent, don't party over the corpse of those that you deem to be guilty, the innocent aren't any less dead as a result of Bin Laden being killed, THEY are the point of all this, they should be the focal point of your emotions. Have a moments silence for those that died in the twin towers, those that died in Afghanistan and Iraq (thats the Iraqi's and Afghans as well as your own lot), it beats a "YAY, BIN LADENS DEAD" barbeque."

I look at it like this. as pissed as we were when the Taliban were doing the same thing in the streets after 9/11, we technically did the same shit in their eyes


So we should've had a bit more class.

Standing ovation.


As Jarmo said in World Cup discussion: that's C-L-A-S-S.

All cuntries are motivated to do things for selfish reasons.  Some cuntries sit back and let other cuntries do the dirty work.

Yes, it's the same thing.  And celebrating the death of Hitler is the same as celebrating the Holocaust.  Makes perfect sense. 

Look, I understand the opinion that you shouldn't celebrate any death, no matter, but the difference in celebrations is beyond obvious and to compare the two is disingenuous. 

Well call me crazy, but I won't believe any of this until I've seen Obama's birth certificate.  :rofl:  :rofl:

But on a serious note, I think people rejoicing about Bin Ladens death is justified and I can't believe we have people questioning the US celebrating. I mean really, after everything he has stood for and what he encouraged followers to do.  :rant:

I also think alot of this has got to do with the graphic nature of what went down on 9/11. We all know that people in the middle-east die everyday, and is it fair, no it isn't. But to attack to skyscrappers in daylight with commecial planes, filled with normal people, is something that sticks in your head like a bullet (no pun intended).

I don't blame anyone for celebrating, let them have their day, they deserve it after all of the mental scars 9/11 left.  :'(

Do you know that some USA actions in all the world left "mental scars" too? The ENTIRE WORLD has mental scars because of USA.

Stop victimizing USA, please. USA (no...that's not fair...USA GOVERNMENTS) is evil as Bin Laden was. Face it.

I'm not saying that the US hasn't caused the same misery to thousands of people unjusticely as well. I'm not on either side regarding that debate, but just as most of the people in countries like Pakistan, Afganistan and Iraq, who rejoiced after 9/11. Why the hell shouldn't the American people do the same, it's human nature, just like the food chain, "you gonna do it to me?, well I'm gonna do it to you right back".  >:(

And there's alot of stuff going on behind all of this that we cannot, comprehend. In the end, the American people are being used as puppets, just like the civilians in the middle-east. They are but players in a game, ran by people who are invisible, and who we will never see.  :-\

To the two guys from Argentina, you think your government's shit don't stink?  Dropping civilian's from planes?  Thats cool I guess.  STFU!

thats not what Im saying. U aren't getting the point I am making.  the way we felt when we saw them dancing in the streets etc is the exact same feeling they are now feeling watching our people dance in the street etc. to them its the exact same thing.

I'm not saying its the same thing but in THEIR brains it is.

(http://www.charlieglickman.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/tiny-violin.jpg)

That was a dictatorship (PLANTED by US government actually! as well as chilean dictatorship and uruguayan, brazilian, etc ), that wasn't voted by people, they were tyrants. It was a dictatorship. You've never had dictatorship in your land but you claim to be democracy warriors when you act like dictators (talking about foreign policy, of course). You get the difference?

Oh please, we landed in a fucking compound with helicopters.  They HAD to be prepared to protect themselves.  We went in and took out the main target.  We could've easily bombed the hell out of him from the air and taken the easy route. 

I love how you make it sound like it was such a simple task, what the Navy SEALS pulled off.

And capturing him and putting him on trial would've caused much more harm than good.  He's better off dead, they gave him a proper burial.  The world is a better place.

Ulises, come right out and say it.  I know you're dying to.  The US got what they deserved on 9/11.  That sure sounds like what you're getting at.  That's a slippery slope to climb my man.  All the hatred you have for America is very unbecoming.  I'm sure you're a good guy deep down, but you sure aren't showing it in this thread.  Keep blaming America for all your problems if it makes you feel better.

In THEIR minds, everything we do is despicable.  We can't do anything right in their minds, or in the minds of many throughout the world, a few who are posting in this very thread.

9/11  was a tragedy and I'll never wish pain to a country or a person or whatever (like YOU do). I don't think you "deserved" that, maybe is a "lesson" to a country who always thought they were the greatest and that they could do whatever they want with the whole fuckin' world (but to implay 9/11 made me happy is stupid). 9/11 was a tragedy. Period. A tragedy where the US was involved because Osama Bin Laden was built by U.S.A. . It was some kind of "backfire" effect.

I get that argument, and I don't take it personally.  You've made some valid points in a rational manner, and I respect that.

The thing about the celebrating.  And I'm not sure how slanted peoples views on America are.  I HOPE you don't think that we all share the same thoughts and beliefs.  Because that's certainly not the case.  I can tell you that many Americans would agree with you, and others, that it's not right to celebrate ANY man's death.  There are many who would celebrate it till the cows come home.  MANY/most Americans disagree(d) with the war in Iraq.  Americans disagreed with the war in Vietnam, most want us to pull out of Afghanistan, especially now.  We're talking about a fraction of people here.  And this is true for all nations.  As Axl says, "Why let one bad apple spoil the whole damn bunch."

Well I'm glad to hear that.  You just went up 1/2 a point in my book.

We're not all bad Ulises, in America.  I just wish you would let go of some of that anger you've got in you.  It's not healthy.  But whatever, to each his own.

Nobody said that. I'm just talking about USA in political terms. Not about american people and nothing like that...

I get it.  We are hated in the world.  I'm learning that more and more every day.  I don't get it, and I don't like it, but obviously I'm biased.  You're obviously not alone in hating the US government.  There's not much I can do about that.  I'll try to not take any of your comments too personally, as I hope you do the same.

The guy what commiting genocide and ethnic cleansing. So its not that surprising he did something so shitty.

Of course I don't think all americans share the same beliefs. I'm pretty sure that not all muslims are terrorists either.

I hope mankind learns to live together in peace someday. Maybe I'm a bit naive, but it's a nice thought, isn't it? Because if we keep going on the course we are on at the moment, we'll kill each other before we destroy the planet.  :no:

as the leader of the free world, the US has to interact with the scum of the earth. i'm not going to defend all of our government's actions cause i know we have done some shady stuff. but i also don't know everything that went into some of those decisions. and i don't know the men that made those decisions.

I trust Obama. i don't think he is evil or has any evil intentions. and i THOUGHT the rest of the world generally agreed with that. (i guess that didn't last too long.  ::))

well Obama deals with and even protects evil dictators. and 20 years from now, some miserable people sitting in some shitty third world countries will be blaming obama for innocent civilians dying in a war and for helping dictators stay in power.

you people hating on the U.S. are coming off as just that....haters. you use Bush or our history or our politics to justify your deep-seeded hatred of our country.

Finally, never thought he would be found or would die a natural death before that ...  Take that fucker! Rot in hell. ;D

Rant over, I too don't agree celebrating violence and glorifying someone's death, but if there ever was an exception, this would be it.

It is also a massive symbolic blow to these crazy radicals, removing their top man, even though everyone knows that for them it will be business as usual in a while.

Pity that Pakistan has turned out the be the last refuge for all these crazy psychos. Well now at least everyone knows where to look.

Exactly.

But, as usual, it's always somebody else's fault.

It's easy to blame the USA for everything bad. But then you're not looking at the whole picture. If the USA planted a dictator in a country, why did it get to that point? Maybe things had been fucked up for so long that it was easy for them to do it? They saw an opportunity, took it and unfortunately it created all kinds of tragic problems.


A lot of it had to do with what was going on at the time. It was the time of the Cold War.

Do you let the Soviets plant a communist there or do you do something yourself? It was a race... Unfortunately.



To me it looks more like the US turned their backs on him.... ;)




The whole celebrating death.

Sure, some are celebrating his death I'm sure.

But I think some people are celebrating a kind of a victory. They would've been celebrating if he had been captured too I'm sure.

Some people celebrate when a criminal is sentenced to jail because it brings them closure. I'm guessing this could be similar...





/jarmo

I think the US HAD turned on Obama, up until a few days ago.  Now, we're seeing that "Change" he was talking about.  Obviously he's still got a ways to go, but he handled the whole situation with class and was able to do what the previous 2 administrations couldn't do in taking down Bin Laden.  That was a huge operation to plan, keep secret, and carry out.  Seems impossible, but they pulled it off.  It proves to me that there's a lot going on behind closed doors that we know nothing about, and I now trust that Obama will do the right thing.

The USA has absolutely no rights to do that. Never had them, never will.

That's one of the few things USA must learn. They think we need them. But we dont. How things are ruled in other countries is their business, not USA's.


 ???

I get that they have no rights. I don't think anybody here would dispute that.

You don't seem to realize that the world was a bit different back then. Two super powers were fighting each other in all kinds of ways. Not just in ice hockey.


It's easy to just point fingers when you don't need to acknowledge anything.





/jarmo

The way I see it is that pretty much all governments do evil or bad things at some point, it's not just one country or one region of the world. No one is perfect and there is no good vs evil.

I would be careful with that kind of logic. A couple of like for like changes and you could just as easily be talking about al-Qaeda and 11/9.

Are you saying the Cold War is no reason for the fact that the USA and Soviet Union interfered with other countries' internal businesses?

That's was the point.



Yes, even extreme terrorists have a reason for doing what they do, doesn't make it right.





/jarmo

So we are not going to get a photo, in my view that sucks as people are always going to claim that it never happened/ or that the US are hiding something from us. I know that the image was gory, but it won't have been shown on the news where children could see it openly, maybe Al Jazeera but that's it. It would have been handled in a way that we have come to expect, and I don't think it would have been the worse thing we have seen. I think releasing a picture, so people could look it up on the internet would have been a much better solution, rather than not giving people a choice at all.  ::)

I really feel that somethings not right about all of this.  :-\

Probably the right decision. Even if they release them, there will be people saying it's photoshopped (already a few on the net), so that's not important. What's important is that genuine pictures don't become the next recruiting tools for al-qaeda and their elk.

Oh great!  Now our 4-legged, antlered friends are getting radicalized???   :hihi:

Seriously, good arguments can be made on both sides of the "release photos/don't release photos" argument.  I lean towards the "don't release" because I think the negatives outweigh the positives.
Perhaps the top secret information could be shown to selected world leaders who could subsequently report their findings to their constituents?
Would satisfying morbid curiosity really be worth supplying a potentially invaluable recruiting tool for Al Qaeda?  I don't think so.
In my opinion, President Obama has handled this very well. 
There is no need to gloat, and he hasn't.
There is no "mission accomplished" banner.  (in a war against terror, there is no end unfortunately)
Reinforcing the message to the Muslim world that the U.S. is not at war with Islam is sooo very important.  Many of my ra-ra jingoistic fellow Americans just don't seem to understand there is nothing to be gained in antagonizing the Muslim world.  Can we convince every Muslim this is the case?  Hell no.  Can we increase the % that trust us?  Hell yeah.
We need support from the Muslim world to help fight terrorism.  There's no arguing that fact.

btw, what a gutsy move.  This operation could have ended much differently, and had it ended differently...well...just look at what happened to Jimmy Carter after his botched attempt to free the hostages in Iran back in the day. 

one more thing...if any of you missed out on this, I'm sorry.  The Annual Correspondents Dinner just the night before the execution of the Bin Laden operation...talk about a poker face!  This had some great laughs...especially the intro.  :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9mzJhvC-8E&feature=feedlik
Seth Myers from SNL had some good ones too...available on google and youtube as well.  enjoy.
 

That's true, but some people just won't believe something until they've seen it.  :yes:

You've got people who think that Bin Laden's been dead for 9 years. And then you've got people thinking that he's some how "working" with the US govenment, and he's being kept safe, and this is just a spoof to fool the world into forgeting about him...   :o

So after all of that, why not just release the damn picture online, and anyone who wishes to see it, can. It doesn't need to be splashed all over the tv, or even newspapers. And that won't happen anyway, because of the taste issue, but I don't see any harm in letting individuals see it who really want to, online.  :-\

You're serious?  The split-second it's released "on-line," it will be EVERYWHERE.  Most notably being used as a recruiting tool for the next fuck-tard that wants fame and notoriety even if it comes posthumously as a "martyr."
Your 1st paragraph summed up the argument for not releasing the evidence.  People will believe what they want to believe.  If foreign leaders want proof, I'm cool with them going into a sealed room...no recording devices, and seeing the evidence that doesn't compromise our covert techniques.  Released to the public?  That doesn't do a damn lick of good in my eyes, other than satisfy morbid curiosity...which is not a good reason for anything in life in my opinion.
 :peace:

I'm talking about it not being on daytime TV, and printed in newspapers. As it simply wouldn't be, because of the risk of children or minors seeing it. I don't think it would be used as a tool to recruit more terrorist members. As don't you think Al Jazeera showing gory images of dead bodies, of members of Al Qaeda and the Taliban daily, is already enough inspiration for them already.  ::)

If anything, I think this image would dishearten the Taliban alot, and it might serve as the start of their decline. Also, it would be a powerful tool in terms of the US spiritually declaring victory over the Taliban, and terrorism in general.  : ok:

Sorry,but killing Bin Laden isn't a spiritual victory over terrorism. Terrorism will always exist. Sure, this horrible man is dead..but it won't be the end of terrorism. Terrorism is an invisible monster who shall plague or planet atleast until all of the homo sapien sapiens are dead and gone..

:rofl: Nice catch. ilk is what I meant of course.

I'm sorry Genesis, I just had to bite on that typo!  Thanks for being a good sport.
To oneinamillion...I hate to break it to you.  Yes.  Yes, the pic would be front page news.  It WOULD be on tv.  and btw, my kids wouldn't see it, but MOST kids would.
Also, do you really believe conspiracy theorists would believe a photo?  A video??  DNA evidence???  Of course they won't and you know that.
The release of any of that shit serves no purpose.  A "spiritual victory?"  WTF?  Seriously?
The president could not have spelled it out more clearly.  The man is dead.  The fight continues.  That said, this was a blow to the terrorists.
More important perhaps than Bin Laden's death is the information we're most certainly culling together from his "compound."
A lot of motherfuckers are very nervous right now.
There are plenty of sick fucks looking over their shoulders right now over there. 
They know they are being hunted.
They know there is no safe refuge.
One of the aspects of this operation I am most proud of is that we went into Pakistan without alerting the Pakistani government.
President Obama said he'd do this before he was even elected.
He was criticized by Hillary.  He was criticized by Republicans.
He was called "naive," and was told, "his inexperience in foreign affairs is telling."
I for one was pleased as punch.  I posted here regularly back during the '08 campaign and applauded Obama then, just as I am now.
 :yes:

I see your point, and you are most likely right...

Regarding Bin Ladens "safe house", I really wouldn't be surprised if the Pakistani army helped build the damn thing for him. I too, am glad that the US didn't alert them about the mission, because if they did, he probably would still be alive, let's face it.  :yes:

He's not taken alive, so he is a martyr now?

Anyway, fucking pathetic, mass-murdering, shame-cultural, sexually frustrated and spritually gay god-worshipper finally died.  Ashes to ashes, Dust to dust!



 

For? What are you siding with? It was a war and people who free'd us from Nazism was murderers too.




AHAHAHHAHAHAHA! China anyone? Israel? Certain African countries? Tyrant... ::)


Pedantic mode /on

People of Spain colonized SA and did horrible things against the population there.

They better had arrested and leaded Bin Laden to the gallows pole so that he gots his justice in front of the entire world press.

What's so wrong w/ just saying the truth? "We executed him." Fine. I'm guessing most would applaud u. So I like trials! Call me an American!

@MMFlint Michael Moore

I've watched a video today. I think you should watch it too.

http://youtu.be/HHhZF66C1Dc


Sadly fun. And true.

Its something how we can watch video of JFK get his brains blown out but yet cant see a fucking photo of bin laden

I agree with Obama on this one.  What's the point of showing the photos?  The conspiracy theorists and non believers are going to believe what they want to believe regardless.  Showing a photo of a guy who got a bullet through his eye isn't accomplishing anything.  He's dead.  Everybody knows it.  Let's leave it at that.  We don't need to see the pictures or release the videos of it.  Radical Muslims get pissed at political cartoons portraying Allah in a bad light.  What do you think a gruesome picture of one of their heroes with pieces of their skull blown to bits is going to do?

The counter-argument would be they're going to hate us whether we show the pictures or not, but there's just no good purpose behind releasing the photos as far as I'm concerned.  I've heard lawyers say that they'd like to see the photos so they could judge if we killed him lawfully, but I could honestly care less.  The man is dead, and that's all that matters.  So let's move on.

Well said Faldor.  Like President Obama said in the 60 Minutes interview (which btw, if you didn't see, was fantastic) , "there's no need to spike the football."  And when it came to the treatment of Bin Laden's corpse, the President explained that we treated it with much more care than Bin laden did with almost 3,000 innocents in the WTC attack...we were better than him.  It's called taking the high road, and it's quite refreshing. 
D, the JFK comparison couldn't be any more apples and oranges.  Would you argue that the death photos should be released?  If so, what's your rationale?  Just curious. 

I hate this notion that Al Qeada are all of a sudden not going to hate us just because we didn't release the photos. Shit, us killing him is war cry enough.

I just think people deserve the right to get the closure they need by seeing with their own eyes he is dead.

Totally unrelated:

when my dad passed away i was in shock.. i didn't gain closure till i actually saw him, then it became reality and i was able to start the healing

With Bin Laden..  I think the country deserves and it is our right to see them.

U can take the high road or be a coward... Al Qeada already have the next batch. not releasing the photos makes it appear we still fear them and that they still got the best of us.

D, I don't know one damn person stupid enough to think that since we didn't release the photos, Al Qaeda would hate our government any less.  That's not the reasoning.  If you think that's their basis, you are mistaken.

If you believe we aren't releasing the photos out of fear, again, I think you are mistaken.

On the "closure" comment.  Seeing Bin Laden's dead body does nothing.  It gets people no closer to "closure."  You had a bond with your father D.  Seeing him after he had passed had to be an incredibly powerful moment for you, I can't imagine.  But, you had a bond with him.  Americans have no bond with Bin Laden.  Again, it's apples and oranges. 

When family members of crime victims witness the electrocution of the criminal that killed their loved one...do you think they feel any better after having seen the eye taken for the eye?  Is it the fact they are witnessing the death they are happy about? or is it the fact that person can not harm their family again?  I think it's the latter.  I take it you'd argue the former.

In a war against terror, there is no end.  There is never closure.  The threat will always exist.  Nations must stay vigilant forever.  Is that living in fear?  I don't think so.  It's living rationally. 

Releasing the photos serves no purpose.  It's a wise and prudent decision to prevent the release.  In the words of President Obama, "spiking the football" accomplishes nothing. 

Well, there is a difference in spiking the ball and doing a stupid Ocho cinco celebration... the crowds after were in the latter. Nothing wrong imo with a good emphatic spike after a score to put the exclamation point on.

I would've paraded his body downtown and burned the fucking thing in an incinerator in the middle of time square and pissed on the ashes.

Again, whether it's spiking the football or doing an Ochocinco celebratory dance...neither do anybody any good.  Just my opinion.
Btw, of course I'd love to do what you mentioned in your 2nd paragraph, but wanting to do something and needing to do something are 2 very different things.
I am sure OBL's underlings are deciding who'll be the next face of their operation...and I'm sure every intelligence service in the world is out there watching, listening, infiltrating, and helping to keep the free world safe from these punks.