Here Today... Gone To Hell!

Surprised no one has a created a thread for this yet... Anyway I was looking forward to seeing Magic vs Heat even though its a pre-season game but it got canceled. Really wanted to see the Magic make the Heat disappear...

oh yeah...


LAKERS 3 PEAT This year  8)


@Garry if you read this... Go ahead and tell me for the 2nd time that Lakers won't win.

If the Heat stay healthy it's gonna be hard to beat them.
But already Wade got injured, LeBron had a minor injury, Mike Miller out for 6-8 weeks... without them all staying healthy I don't see them beating either Boston or Orlando. The Lakers are probably gonna take the West with no problems, maybe the Nuggets could challenge if the start playing some defense and Oklahome City is overrated IMO.

It's gonna be a fun opening night - Miami @ Boston.  :)

Things just wont be the same without The Answer :(

Yeah, my favorite player to ever play the game.

I woke up at night (cause I'm in Europe) just to watch that guy put up 30 a night on every team against him.

Got every jersey he ever wore in the NBA, shoes, photos with signatures, almost everything related to him.

After he announced his retirement after the 3 games with Memphis I remember crying that night.

He was more than just a NBA player to me, I grew up idolizing him and watching him play and trying to do whatever he did on the basketball court.

I am sure gonna miss that guy...

As much as the Besiktas Istanbul idea sounds a wrong direction, there's a positive thing in it - I might be able to finally see him play in person if his team comes near my country.

I know it's not the same guy as he was back in the Philly/Denver days but it would still be a dream come true.

That's one thing I gotta do while he is still able to play.

NBA League Pass is ordered

for the past 5 years ive seen EVERY Dallas Mav game and this year will continue the streak!

I respect Dirk for not being a coward and chasing a ring. I'll take a 50 win season and Dallas competing fairly over the Heat's bullshit and the Lakers stealing Pau Gasol and Artest ring chasing.


I think, especially if Carmelo gets traded, we are gonna be in the West Finals.

Roddy Beaubois is unstoppable. Tyson Chandler gives us a defensive presence and he is a great floor runner. our bench is ridiculous with Terry,Marion and Chandler coming off it everynight.

http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/69745/20101024/iverson_plans_to_play_in_turkey/

Gunna' be hard to add that jersey to the collection.

Nah, they are probably gonna sell it on their site since he's gonna draw a lot of people to their site. : ok:

Not a great start for the Heat... I think those 'sidekick' chants from the Celtic fans may have gotten to Lebron. 

Looks like it, 8 turnovers isn't something we are used to seeing from him.

DWade and LeBron had 14 TOs combined and that's too much if you plan on beating Boston.

In the first quarter the Heat had only 9 points, last year the lowest was 12.  ;D

Rough start to say the least for the big three.

Let's hope they do better against Philly tonight.

how about those 17 assist from Rondo for the opening game  :beer:

... as for the lakers i honestly thought we were going to lose at the end. figured Brooks would get the ball behind the 3 point line and just make the basket.

It's tough to take much out of the first game of the season, especially from the Heat perspective, as their big 3 played all of a few minutes together in pre-season.  I'm sure they will learn to play with each other and get much better as the season progresses.  As for last night though, that basically looked like the Cavs with Lebron the last few years.  Bosh was a complete non factor and Wade appears not to be 100% healthy yet.  And I may be overreacting to the ONE game, but their supporting cast seems to be severely lacking to me.  They have no frontcourt presence to speak of and nobody outside of the big 3 that scares you.  They do appear to have some shooters with House and Jones, and when Miller comes back they'll have another.  But I'm not sold on them being as great as the Van Gundy's of the world were projecting.

HAHAHA Cleveland beat Boston tonight! Fuck you Lebron!



On a side note

My Mavs looked amazing tonight against Charlotte. We look tougher,play better defense and aren't running the same ole plays to Dirk at the top of the key every time down the floor.

Dirk scored 28 pts on 13 shots!!!!!!!!  11-13 but more importantly, he pulled down 13 rebounds.  Kidd had 18 assists.

Look out Western Conference.

Yeah the Cavs played a bit possessed tonight.  JJ Hickson picked up right where Lebron left off in the first half of the game.  He did slow down in the second half though.  They still have Jamison who is a good offensive player, and Varejo is a mini Joakim Noah.  And Mo Williams didn't even play tonight.  So they have SOME talent, and maybe they'll pull together and play as more of a team without having to depend on ONE guy.

Then again, probably not.  They played their hearts out tonight, as I'm sure they'll do when Lebron visits town. 

what was up with gordon not passing the ball to griffin in the 4th qrt..  :rant:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20F9dIw_onk


Clippers becoming relevant this year?  :o

(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs008.ash2/33766_485486235836_10960345836_7612891_5505575_n.jpg)


Well it's official.

Iverson has signed a 2-year deal with Besiktas Istanbul.

^At least we won't have to deal with his drama every week on ESPN for the next two years, unless he flames out and does something really stupid in a Muslim country....

It's not his fault the media has turned against him and blows up every story about him to make him look bad.

A couple of Celtics notes.  How about Rajon Rondo breaking an NBA record for most assists through the first 4 games of a season, besting Stockon and Magic.

And KG was doing his thing last night and called Charlie Villanueva (UConn's own) a cancer patient.

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/extras/celtics_blog/2010/11/did_kg_go_too_f.html?camp=localsearch:on:twit:celtics

Obviously I don't condone this sort of thing, but people have to stop being surprised by this sort of thing.  Athletes/performers/entertainers aren't the most grounded or smartest human beings.  They say and do stupid things.  We see it time and again.  So this doesn't really surprise me.

I wish that when something like this goes down, KG actually accepts the challenge and these two fight.  I don't care much for boxing, wrestling or UFC all that much... but if two NBA players that have legitimate beef wanted to throw down in the ring?  I would pay to see that. 

I'm not suprised either though, outrageous shit about athletes seems to come out daily now.

KG responded earlier tonight by saying he didn't call Charlie a cancer "patient".  He said he was a cancer to his team and to the league.  I GUESS that's a little less offensive, but a) I don't think I buy it, and b) what the hell did poor Charlie Villanueva ever do to become a cancer to the entire NBA?

Well, Kevin was never very well liked by opponents before this, so this only amplifies that factor.

Paul Pierce topped the 20,000 point mark tonight, becoming the 3rd Celtic to do so and thus moving into 3rd place on the all time Celtic scoring list.  Larry Bird is next on the list, and he should be able to pass him.  Catching John Havlicek may prove to be a bit more difficult.

Nothing can surprise me from KG.

He's been the king of trash talk since he's entered the league and stuff like this should be expected from him almost every game.

I've never been a KG fan. Classless




In other news.  Amazing,exciting game between the Mavs and Nuggets last night.

I always laughed when people said Dirk couldn't be the 1 option and win.

I'd like to ask those experts: Who do you put dirk with then? Cause there are only 3 guys u can legitimately say are better than Dirk: Kobe,Lebron and MAYBE D Wade.


I'd take Dirk over Carmelo,Howard or Durant right now.

of course Give me Durant for the next 3-5 years but this season alone, Dirk is better.

Dirk 35 and 12 last night. Carmelo 18 and 14.

Any idea where to pick up the new jersey? :smoking:

I'm not sure if it's available online yet, as soon as it appears I'm gonna link you to it.

I plan on buying both home and away. :)

so, i wasn't expecting the Hornets to be undefeated.  :hihi:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L41P4zxSp_I

Dirk ate KG up last night for the record.


wonder if KG ever calls Dirk a nazi? :hihi:

Celtics should've won that game.  They're undermanned right now, especially after Jermaine O'Neal got injured last night, leaving them with one healthy center.  And KG had 18 and 15, so it's not like he didn't have a good game himself.

HOw about Miami

hahahaha

Once again

Fuck You Lebron!

that game was awesome... down from a 22 point lead to win the game in over time  ;D

Gotta love Paul Pierce's tweet after the C's beatdown of the Heat last night.  And it was a beatdown.  Don't let the score fool you.  They led wire to wire and Miami never got closer than to within 4 points after the first quarter.

@paulpierce34
Paul Pierce
It's been a pleasure to bring my talents to south beach now on to Memphis

I do think Miami will continue to get better as the season goes along, but they may be in more trouble than I originally thought, and I was one who didn't think they'd automatically be the best team in the NBA.  First off, I think Chris Bosh is overrated.  Secondly, they are seriously lacking at PG and C.  So far, the games they've lost, they've been dominated by superior players at those positions.  I don't see how those things fix themselves.  They're going to beat up on the lesser teams, but they will continue to struggle against the elite teams with solid PG's or frontcourt players.  That's always going to be a mismatch for them.  And as good as the Big 3 are, I think KG, Pierce, and Allen match up pretty evenly with Bosh, James, and Wade.

that tweet was awesome hahah...


D, tonight I am cheering for your Mavs... only for tonight though... Lets go Mavs, Lets go Mavs haha.

No more undefeated teams in the NBA, Hornets lost @ Mavs last night.


In other news - AI is going to have his debut tonight for Besiktas, here's a recent interview he made during practice few days ago (yes, we are talkin' about Practice):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGkxFqtre-A

The game starts in less than 4 hours.

Can't wait!  :)

If anybody is interested here's a few sites which are going to stream the game:
http://www.fromsport.com/c-6.html
http://sport24.lt/krepsinis

what an amazing exciting game last night. Dallas were down 10 with under 7, and Made a fantastic comeback.

We have a shot this season cause adding Tyson CHandler has given us a presence inside. He contests alot of shots that use to murder us, like Paul driving in the lane. Last night, Chandler shut that little jump shot from the foul line down.

Dirk another huge game. 7-12. Dirk shoots over 55 percent from the floor, gets damn near 10 rebs a game and is still the most underrated superstar in the league.

Video of AI's debut:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4th1IxHgrFk

Awesome :smoking:

That is so fucking embarrassing.  Iverson is an all-time great, sad to see him finishing his career like that.

LeBron returns to Cleveland tonight, should be a interesting game to watch.  :)

Well, looks like it was interesting for the first quarter, and that's about it.  I missed the game, but taped the beginning and saw the reception the crowd gave Lebron.  I really thought the Cavs would've played a lot better tonight, especially the way things have been going for the Heat lately.  Maybe Miami was more focused, since this was such a meaningful game to Lebron.  We'll see if they can carry that over.  I'm not convinced.

It's so sad to see Cleveland fans getting manipulated by the media so much that they need to boo their best player to ever play in a Cavs uniform. Instead of being happy and grateful for what he gave them for 7+ years they burn his jersey, get insulting shirts, boo him every time he has the ball etc. It just shows how the media is powerful when it comes to things like this. I guess sometimes profit comes before the game and the spectacle itself, even in the NBA.  ::)

Was hopin the Cavs would pull that off

Not sure I agree the fans are being manipulated by the media.  Lebron acted like an ass in the off-season and couldn't have handled "The Decision" more poorly.  If he had left the Cavs like a normal human being, I'd agree they'd have little to be upset about.  But that's not how things went down.  The fans have every right booing him in Cleveland, and every other arena outside of Miami in the NBA on a nightly basis.

Well I agree on other teams booing him, they have the right to that to make the home team beat the Heat. But the whole Q arena booed him, nobody showed at least a little bit of respect towards him for the things he did for them. If the media wasn't all "let's get Cleveland fans not like him" I think there would be a few "Witness" shirts instead of "Quitness".  :rofl:

I still don't think it was the media.  It was his own doing.  And the way things have gone in Miami so far just further exemplify it.  I mean, if the Heat were 20-2, you could say, well obviously he made the right move.  But when they have a far worse record than Cleveland ever did with Lebron in previous years, the Cleveland fans have a right to be upset.  Again, the way he handled his free agency was immature and disrespectful to the Cavs.  He got what he deserved, IMO.  And honestly, the Heat AND James played great and destroyed the Cavs, so I don't think he was hurt all that much.

on a side funny note, my Mavs are 11-2 since Dirk cut his hair!!

 Sampson my ass!

wow spurs have the best record int he league... didn't expect that this season.

Jerry Sloan resigned as Jazz coach after 23 years.

yeah, as a Jazz fan I am not happy with this at all, heard it was all Deron Williams doing..

Nah, he and the owners both said it was his and only his decision to leave on the press conference. : ok:

yes thats what they "said"..but every sports reporter and tv station in this country says otherwise.  Nobody leaves halfway through a season without some type of shit going down.

Well it's too bad you let your self get manipulated by the media.

I think through all the years he has done his job at Utah, Jerry Sloan at least deserves to go out on his terms and not the terms the media is making up.

Just another proof that the media is controlling and brainwashing "casual" fans.

dude, what planet are you on.  I follow every Jazz game, i have the NBA season pass, i read all the Utah newspapers, Deron Williams is the reason why Sloan quit now as opposed to the end of the season.  Him and Williams went at it every night.  Jerry would not throw him under the bus though.  That is the one good thing about the media today, you can't hide anything from them, stories cant be covered up anymore.

So Jerry Sloan deciding to quit at halftime of a game in February after 23 years makes sense to you?  With his top assistant walking out the door with him?  His relationship with Deron Williams had nothing to do with that?  How naive can you be?  Deron Williams might not have forced him out the door, but his relationship with Sloan was too much for him to handle right now, thats why he left as opposed to finishing out the season. 

Love how my Mavs are floating under the radar and no one is talking about them. 6 gms behind SA for best record in NBA. if Dirk doesn't miss 9 with a knee injury, *Dallas 2-7* and if it hadn't taken him a couple weeks to get back to 100 percent, We'd easily have the best record in the NBA.

If Dirk were black or American Born white, he'd be consisered one of the g reatest players of all time. Since he is foreign born, he gets shit on a lot.

http://www.denverpost.com/nuggets/ci_17443219

Carmelo Anthony traded to New York Knicks in blockbuster deal
By Benjamin Hochman and Chris Dempsey
The Denver Post
Posted: 02/21/2011 09:56:57 AM MSTUpdated: 02/21/2011 08:28:54 PM MST

The Carmelo Anthony trade saga is finally over.

The Nuggets traded Melo to the New York Knicks tonight, a league source said. Denver gets Wilson Chandler, Raymond Felton, Danilo Gallinari, Timofey Mozgov, the Knicks 2014 first-round draft pick, the Warriors' 2012 second-round pick, the Warriors' 2013 second-round pick and $3 million in cash.

Anthony will go to New York, along with Chauncey Billups, Shelden Williams, Anthony Carter and Renaldo Balkman.  Anthony was not at the Nuggets' practice as the team resumed workouts following the All-Star break.  A source said the Knicks will send Anthony Randolph and Eddy Curry to Minnesota as part of the deal.

Nuggets guard J.R. Smith said Monday after practice, after learning of the trade: "I mean, it's just rebuilding first. We gotta go forward with what we got. And try to do the best we can in the playoffs."

When asked if there's time this season to salvage a Nuggets playoff run, Smith said: "I think it is. Our backs have been up against the wall many times before."

More updates coming soon here and at denverpost.com/nuggets

Welcome to the Garden MELO!!!  Now when DWill comes here in 2012...look out.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/211319/Nets_Acquire_Deron_Williams

Im sorry but Carmelo anthony is so fucking overrated. I hear sports pundits saying they'd take him over Lebron

WHAT?
 
Carmelo is NO leader, got out of the playoffs ONE time......... Denver 3-1 without his sulking balless pussy whipped ass.

Melo is an amazing talent, but unfortunately plays when he wants to. He can score at will, and scares me more than Lebron because he has the ability to beat you with his jump shot, something LBJ can't do. Wade should have the ball in crunch time if Heat want to win, because he can shoot, and has proven to be clutch, something LBJ isn't. Knicks are still in trouble because their 2 highest paid players only play 1 side of the ball, and play for a coach who doesn't believe in defense. As much as I enjoy seeing the Knicks make brain dead move after brain dead move, they may have something in the end here. Both Amare and Carmelo are capable of playing D. Now that Melo is where he wants to maybe he will be interested. They are still missing a piece or 2 though.

Carmelo is an amazing talent. i agree  BUT I think he is like an *Sorry Axlsmainman* Allen Iverson. really doesn't do anything to make his team better.

People take for granted how difficult it is to get Triple Doubles. Lebron makes it look effortless.


Look at Cleveland since Lebron left, now look at Denver since Melo left?  big difference.

I agree I'd rather have Melo take the last shot though. but that is one weakness in Lebron's game but it doesn't take away from his all around game.

Yeah, I agree. Right now it's really not close, Lebron is the better overall player.
I think people who talk about Carmelo are talking more about if he lived up to his potential. I think scoring comes easier to him, and defense is all about effort, so if he put the work in, his ceiling may be higher. He's no rookie though, so who knows if that's ever gonna happen. Lebron definitely seems hungrier, though his game has holes.
He seems to fold under pressure. As a Celtics fan, I love seeing him at the free throw line in critical spots.
He can't shoot, not sure that's lack of effort, or if he just doesn't have it in him. He's overrated defensively, but still far better than Melo.
Wade is the player that scares me in a series with the Heat. I'm hoping Spoelstra keeps drawing up plays that puts the ball in LBJs hands when it counts.

What Iverson did in 2001 is nothing short of amazing. He brought a team that had no business being in the playoffs, to the Finals.

that was the one year they built the perfect team around Iverson.  Teams screwed up because with Iverson, u just needed a strong defensive/role player team around him. Philly did that perfectly in 2001.

Of course 2001 the East was terrible also.


Ive heard people say Kobe is better than Jordan cause he has had to face much stiffer competition. I can definitely see that angle. if u think of Jordan's era, who was really the 2nd best player? He had no peer at SG. Reggie Miller/Clyde Drexler were good....... but i don't consider either all time greats.

Oh I don't buy the Kobe/MJ comparison. Look at MJ's playoff numbers, they go up from his already insane season averages. Kobe's go down.
MJ has 6 rings, 6 Finals MVPs. Undefeated in the Finals. Kobe played second fiddle to Shaq his first 3, and probably loses to my C's last year, if not for Artest of all people bailing him out.
Kobe would have been the goat, instead they gave him MVP because there was no clear favorite.

I think the media just desperately wants another MJ. It's probably not gonna happen. LBJ sure as hell ain't it. Kobe's the closest thing there is today, he emulated his game from him, but he's no MJ. Very overrated defensively, whereas MJ was a lockdown defender. It didn't take MJ as long to figure out how to make his teammates better. Kobe's nearing the back 9, and still hasn't consistently been able to do it. This late in his career, and his teammates have a name for when he forgets he's not the only person on the floor, he goes off to Kobedar, haha.

Since the Heat seem to have trouble hitting last second shots, maybe they should sign this kid up.  THIS is how you do it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WEFn-bwrtY&feature=player_embedded

The first thing I thought was that it shouldn't have counted because he traveled 3 times...haha I'm such a dick. 

Great game last night. Heat have potential but Lebron has to be Magic Johnson and get his teammates involved.

thats what separates Lebron from other players, he is fantastic at making his teammates better but sometimes in Miami, he gets away from that and shoots too much. Last night, he had the perfect blend.


Oh and Dirk and Dallas totally bitchsmacked Carmelo and NY.

Was a good game, Dallas just couldn't quiet put a run together to get over the hump.

I fear Mark Cuban blew a possible title by not trading for Gerald Wallace at trade deadline. he is exactly the player Dallas has needed for 10 years.

yeah, but im willing to bet the Knicks get a title before Dallas does.  As long as Cuban is infatuated with soft Euro's they are never going to get it done. I hear he is interested in Rubio now, haha.  He should really take a look at Dwill next season.

Carmelo Anthony is soooooooooo overrated. Knicks 6-5 since they got him. lost to Cleveland and Indiana.

People hate on Dirk but all is basically bullshit. Dirk still one of the top 5 in the league today. Dude made it to the finals with Josh Howard as his number 2.

He has never had the talent Kobe and others have had.


Carmelo scores... thats it. terrible defender, rebounder ,help defender, passer...... he makes nobody better.

Denver getting ready to be something like 8-2 since the trade.

Superstar my ass

knicks wont win title.. they will never beat Miami.

dude you just explained Dirk perfectly.  Dirk is one of the most overated players in NBA History.  I wouldn't even wipe my ass with that bullshit MVP award he won in 2007, when he got bitch slapped so bad by Golden State in the first round they had to BENCH him!! An MVP getting benched??  Lets also not forget about arguably the greatest collapse in NBA Finals history against the heat.  A top 5 player in the NBA would seal the deal on a title when hes up 2-0 and has a 13 point lead in Game 3.  Dirk is so soft it makes me sick.  You are talking about how the Knicks are 6-5 since the trade..who gives a fuck?  It is the regular season!  It means nothing.  Also we all know its not about THIS year or NEXT year for the Knicks, they are still building.  Dirk is not even a top 10 player in the league today, nevermind top 5.  You think he is on the level of Kobe, Wade and Lebron, really?

What did Kobe do without Shaq? What did Kobe do before they stole Pau Gasol?

Who has the better supporting cast in their careers? Kobe or Dirk?

Golden St was a fluke. They were absolutely the perfect matchup for Dallas. Dallas built their team to beat San Antonio and just weren't equipped to matchup. Avery Johnson also fucked it all up by switching the s tarting lineup for the series which killed the chemistry and rotation, He also blew the Miami series with his ridiculous coaching. Doubling Shaq and letting Wade walk to the basket. Wade also got so many bullshit FT's it was sickening. Conspiracy cause of Mark Cuban's ref bashing.

Dirk and Shaq are the only TWO players in NBA history to average 25pts and 10rebs in the postseason. every playoff Dirk does way more than his share. just check the stats.

This year, Dirk's 2nd best player, Caron Butler is out for the season but yet Dallas still are tied for 2nd. Imagine if Pau Gasol were out for the year, would LA still be second? no fucking way.

Dirk's center for his career was Eric Dampier. Did he have Shaq? did he even have an Andrew Bynum?

so if u want to debate this, u are going to have to come stronger than "oh dirk is soft and sucks" cause it simply isn't true. people forget basketball is a team game. Dirk consistently has been the only allstar on his team. Saw this stat on NBAtv the other night. over the past 3 years, with less than 30secs on the clock and shooting to tie or win the game, Kobe is 10-21, Dirk is 8-13.

people act like Dirk isn't clutch but he is. I know this much, Dirk never quit on his team like Kobe did against Phoenix in game 7.
Last year, Kobe shot 6-24 in Game 7 and WON cause he had amazing TEAMMATES. If Dirk shot 6-24 or has a bad game like Miami or Golden St, guess what, THEY LOSE!

Dirk rebounds,he passes and he shoots a super high FG percentage which makes his team better cause he doesn't ballhawk and isn't selfish.  Carmelo scores and thats it. has been out of first rd once in 7 seasons. Denver are now 9-2 without him. Knicks 7-6 with him. When Dirk injured his knee, Dallas went 2-7 without him. U do the math.

Dirk is the only player in the NBA in the top 15 in pts, FG percentage, FT percentage and 3pt percentage.

Nowitzki revolutionized his position. He makes his teammates better. Better post game, better passer.
Melo is a great scorer and that's about it. He has tremendous potential, but only plays one side of the ball, and 8 years in seems quite content with what he is.
Dirk has gotten better throughout the years, much more consistent.
I don't see Melo changing as long as he plays for No D Antoni. Knicks have no shot at being an elite team as long as they have the 2 highest paid defensive liabilities in the NBA playing for a coach that hasn't grasped the fact that you simply cannot expect to win in the playoffs when you religiously give up 100+ points per game.

Excellent post

Dirk isn't as terrible a defender as people would like u to think. Alot of that is cause he has never had a big center backing him up.

Dirk has been top 10 NBA player for the past decade, too bad the media doesn't overrate him as much as they overrate Bryant.

If Dirk was American he'd probably be lifted to the heights of Larry Bird, but yeah nothing he can do about it. It's such a shame the media controls the league and it's fans so much these days.

They overrated Kobe, made him player of the decade (no fucking way, Shaq deserves it way more than Kobe, Duncan deserves it more, even LeBron is better than Kobe but since he didn't have a superstar player besides him in the team to win the first 3 tittles for him he didn't get enough votes), started comparing him with MJ (also no fucking way in a million years, Kobe wouldn't achieve stuff MJ achieved if he played for 50 years in the league), they made people think he's clutch (yeah he is a bit clutch, but guess what Melo is more clutch but the media somehow gives the "best clutch player in the league" to Kobe for some reason). All this guy does is jack up a lot of shots, hits a couple of pointless game winners in the regular season, copies some of MJ's moves (doesn't have any moves of his own, just copies MJ) and he gets all the credit when his team wins. I'd take Pau over Kobe any day of the week, lot more efficient, better defender, helps the team in so many ways. To me Kobe isn't much better than players from the start of the past decade (Mcgrady, Carter, Iverson), he might be a better scorer than those 3 were but that's all because he had the most help of all of them during his career, not to mention the best coaching staff in the league.

The quickest way to end a MJ/Kobe argument is to look at stats. Numbers don't lie, and Kobe isn't in MJs league. You don't have to look any further than FG%. MJ shot close to 50, and Kobe's around 45 last I checked. MJ's #s go up when it counts, postseason. Kobe's go way down. Kobe is never going to be undefeated in the Finals, or a 6 time Finals MVP. Jordan was never the second best player on his team like Kobe was before Shaq left. Jordan never let his team give up and be embarrased, blown out by 40 points to their rivals in an elimination game.

All that said, Kobe is a great player. I would take him over McGrady, Carter, Iverson in a heartbeat because although he's overrated defensively, he is far better than those three, as they don't play any defense whatsoever. Plus, can't deny Kobe's will to win. He wants it badly, and that's more than I can say for McGrady or Carter.

It's hard to compare the 3 players I've mentioned to Kobe since all 3 of them were in far worse situations than Kobe was. We can only imagine how would the Lakers be with AI (or T-mac/VC) instead of Kobe. Kobe is far more "me first" player than all 3, and by "me first" I mean he puts up shots when double or triple teamed instead of passing it to a open teammate. The problem is stats don't show that and when it's all set and done nobody debates that, they look at the stats and see him in top 6 scoring all time. Not saying that isn't a great accomplishment, but it was done with the "me first" attitude. Since Kobe had so many great teammates and coaching staff's during his career, that helps him to win 5 NBA titles which automatically makes him far better in the eyes of a "casual" supporter of the game and it somehow hides all the bad stuff he's done and still is doing when he plays. Personally I don't have anything against him, it's just that I'm fed up with people saying he can be compared to MJ (or even some are saying he's better than him, which is insane). People need to watch a lot more games to even see how some players play, but most of them are either judging them by stats or what they read in the media. Not a lot of people have their own opinion based on facts or watching games, they rather just have their brains washed by the media.

I hear you. If we were playing make believe, I think you could insert a bunch of players in Kobe's place(not sold on Carter or McGrady for the record though) and the Shaq era Lakers would have been just as successful. Shaq was the irreplaceable piece of that run. Of course that's just my opinion, and the fact remains that they did win, Kobe had a role in it, and played it well.

Anyone who says Kobe is better than Jordan shouldn't be allowed to watch basketball, never mind talk about it. It's really not close. At all. Hell, Phil Jackson has said as much.

Jordan was as good defensively as he was offensively. Unfortunately defense isn't as sexy, and doesn't get you on ESPN, so kids grew up idolizing MJ for his dunks, clutch shots and didn't really see that his D had just as much to do with his success(Carmelo an obvious example).

There is no shortage of selfish superstars in the NBA, but Kobe has backed it up with wins. Granted, his teammates have bailed him out on multiple occasions, but he's not the slouch some of the others are. You watch a guy like Carmelo, who in my opinion is light years ahead of Kobe as far as talent, and ability to score goes, but Carmelo is a loser in the NBA up to this point. He can light it up as well if not better than anyone, but when you are essentially ushering in your opponents on the other end, what's it good for? Kobe plays both ends, he wants to win, and does everything in his power to do so. Sometimes it's his weakness as he goes to Kobedar and tries to go 1 against 5, but compare that to others who flat out refuse to put the effort into stopping the other team. There is nothing more boring to me than to watch a basketball game with no D.

Some other knocks on Kobe is that he ran Shaq out of town, and tried to convince management to trade Bynum as well.
I don't see him making a good GM.

Kobe didnt "run Shaq out of town."  Thats old.  It was Shaqs antics (demanding money, coming in out of shape, etc.) and inability to realize he wasnt top dog.  Shaq DEMANDED a trade when Phil Jackson was told he wouldnt be back.   The whole argument about Kobe playing second fiddle to Shaq during their title runs, and doesnt deserve credit for his first three rings is a joke.  Shaq came to the Lakers and didnt win a title until Kobe became a starter.  The fact that the team was dismantled and rebuilt around Kobe, and he has won titles again is even more proof.
   

It's pretty well documented that Kobe wanted Shaq gone. He was caught on tape demanding Bynum be traded.
Kobe demanded to be traded himself a few years ago.
Kobe was the second best player on the Shaq era Lakers, that much isn't up for debate. Shaq is one of the most dominant big men the game has ever seen, and easily of his era.
Shaq was the Finals MVP each series. When he left, he won with Wade, while Kobe's Lakers became a laughing stock of the NBA until the Pau Gasol heist.
Again, Kobe deserves credit, it's a team game, and he played his part, but he wasn't the best player on the team, and that was my point. I brought it up because people use the rings when comparing him to Jordan, but Jordan was unquestionably the best player on his team, so there is a difference.

Iverson is a Hall of Famer, but still nowhere near Kobe Bryant but at least there is a discussion there.  Tracy McGrady and Vince Carter are two of the biggest busts in the history of the NBA when it comes to the potential they had, measured up to what they actually achieved.  McGrady has never been out of the first round of the Playoffs!  Carter hasn't played in a big game in his life.  That has nothing to do with the teams they were on, Allen Iverson took one of the worst teams in NBA History to the NBA Finals by himself.

What happened to LA when Shaq got traded? They got what? The 8th seed?

Kobe has had a superstar big man his entire career to be successful. Fuck he has two this season with Bynum and Gasol. U have the best perimeter defender in Ron Artest.

Kobe plays on stacked teams.

I didn't realize how shitty some of the Bulls teams were Jordan had till i bought NBA2k11. Outside Jordan and Pippen, Horace Grant was ok..... cartwright was ok.. paxson ok.. but Stacey king,Cliff Levingston,Craig hodges, Will perdue... Fuck what a terrible supporting cast.

If Kobe doesn't play with Shaq, and if LA don't steal Gasol, Kobe more than likely has no rings.

The media and experts always overlook WHO played with these guys.

People put Bill Russell Over Wilt cause he won 11 titles. Bill had 4 or 5 other Hall of Famers on his team. That doesn't mean Russell is better, just means he had a better team.

Thats my argument with Dirk. If he were black or American born, he'd be elevated higher than what he is. Dirk had Steve Nash before he was the MVP Nash, Josh Fucking Howard, and now his 2nd best player Caron Butler is out for the year. Played his entire career with pure SHIT at Center.


Having a great center allows u to play better more aggressive defense cause when u get beat, u have someone behind u to clean it up. Dirk has never had that, so it makes it look even worse when he gets beat by his man.

I understand your point, but in this case you have to realize Russell made his teammates better. They may not be HOFers if not for playing with him. Both Wilt and Russell were freaks. Wilt was more about his stats, and Russell in it for rings. They both got what they wanted.

There's not many people who appreciate what AI did the way I do. And if you ask me, if the Lakers draft him instead of Kobe I'm thinking they double the championships won, AI was just entering his prime at the start of the decade while Shaq was already there. Sure there would be some "who's the MVP of the team" issues but that would all be solved with a few championships won. Since the league was "weak" at the time the Lakers would be impossible to stop, AI and Shaq both make each other better players since they play together, share a few MVPs in the process and the rest is history. But yeah, that's all a part of our imaginations so it's pointless to discuss it.

The thing that bothers me about people's opinion about AI is that most of them use the "he played no defense" thing. Well guess what - it's kinda hard to play defense when your 6 foot in the league where the average height is 6foot6inches, but yeah Larry Brown and Philly brought the best out of him in terms of playing defense. They used all of his ability, played him like he played in Georgetown where he won the Defensive player of the year award twice I think. So yeah, he played defense in the best possible way because of his size and people don't see that. I have followed him and admired him throughout his career and never once he used that size thing as a excuse and people have to give him credit for it. The NBA has never seen a player like him before he got there and I think we will never see one again.

And about Mcgrady and Carter, I think they were misused in a lot of ways. And maybe they weren't on the same level as AI and Kobe but you have to wonder how would it all turn out if they went to different organizations who cared more about winning rather than giving them all the power on the court and letting them do whatever they want.

people forget it was robert horry or derek fisher that hit most of those clutch shots.

Iverson was great but was a guy who needed a specific team built around him to win.

Philly were so great that year, cause they finally surrounded him with the proper pieces. A tough,defensive oriented team. Years later in his career, more scorers would brought in, and it just didn't work well.

I've honestly never been a fan of any high volume shooter. scoring 30ppg on 25shots doesn't impress me.

thats why i've never been an Iverson,and now Durant fan.


Dirk shoots 53 percent from the field and is a jump shooter. he scores 25 a night on 13 to 15 shots. If he took same shot amount as Durant, he'd lead league in scoring.


back on Kobe, lets also don't forget he has played for the greatest NBA coach of all time as well. that also certainly helps.

If this, if that.

All I hear are a bunch of haters crying.

Remember this.

Jordan wasn't SHIT until Pippen and PJax rolled into town.  He would have been just another Iverson.

Get your heads out of your asses, "people."  And I use that word very loosely.

Talk about if this, if that.  :hihi:


Not agreeing on everything with the people who jerk off on Kobe doesn't make you a hater. Saying he's top 20 all time is okay (debatable in my mind, but fine), but comparing him with the GOAT no fuckin' way.

Next year the NBA will get a look at Kemba Walker, who's game is similar to Allen Iverson's.  We'll see how it pans out, but the potential is there.

I've seen the guy play on TV and some highlights on Youtube. Kemba has a killer first step and the crossover but the overall speed isn't like Allen's and that's a big difference in the playing style. Allen relied so much on his speed during his career and without it he definitely wouldn't be the same. It all depends on the draft and where Walker ends up. A lot of teams will probably pass on him since he's short, but if he does go to a rebuilding team (Cleveland) he would have a lot of space there to showcase all of his talent and ability.

Agreed, he's not as quick as Iverson was.  More of an Allen Iverson-lite.  He probably will be passed on by many team due to his diminutive status, but I think those teams will regret it.  He's had a great season and amazing run the last couple of weeks especially.

Kemba will be a Jamal Crawford/Jason Terry type 6th man scorer off the bench.

Doubt it. This ain't bench material, this is superstar potential:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCIJ06uC-jQ

Replace Kobe with Jordan in your post and you will see that you're straight sippin' from the Haterade.

Top 20, get out of here.  Even MJ himself said that Kobe is top 10 all time, and once he's done with his career he'll be top 5 if not top three. 

MJ > gnr-4-ever.

Learn a thing or two about basketball before you come on here talking all kinds of nonsense.

Yeah um, here's the quote of what MJ said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfOMPY1ltwI

Clearly says top 10 GUARDS of all time.

Top 3 all time? Yes, top 3 most overrated players of all time.  : ok:

I need to learn a thing or two about basketball? I've been following the NBA since I was a little kid, almost 14 years.

Hate to disappoint you but I dedicate most of my free time to NBA and GN'R (almost the same amount of time) and I think i know a few things when it comes to basketball.

Unlike yourself, you just hear what you want to hear and not what MJ actually said. But I understand you completely, since there's no real arguments to make when people say Kobe is top 10 of all time.

Overrated?  More like most DISRESPECTED player.  People find things about him to disrespect all the time. 

Like that garbage stat about Melo being more clutch than Kobe.  Yeah, sure, some geek invented a "clutchness" stat and Melo is on top.  BIG DEAL.  Who has more memorable and more important buzzer beaters?  How many rings does Melo have?

Melo is now STRUGGLING in New York!  How is that clutch?

I don't know what the media in Croatia says or doesn't say, and I know your first experiences with basketball were during Jordan's three-peat, but take off the blinders man.  Nobody here in the United States jerks off Kobe.  Everyone is too busy jerking off LeBronze and getting nuts all over their face to even notice Kobe.  It's ok though, he'll just keep adding more rings to his fingers while all of you turn green with envy.

And believe me, I'm not disappointed that you spend most of your free time to GN'R and basketball, I pity you.

what did Kobe do those 3 years after Shaq was traded? Till they stole Gasol, he was barely making the playoffs.

Overrated and disrespected for a reason. Why don't people disrespect Lebron so much? They do only because of the "decision" thing, but his game? Not really. LeBron accomplished individually more than Kobe in his first 7 season than Kobe did in 14. So yeah, Lebron didn't win any championships only because he didn't have someone win them for him.


You can't really be serious about Melo? You're judging him on his first 17 games with the Knicks? C'mon man, you can do better than that. Fact is he's a better clutch player than Bryant, only difference is you prefer Kobe more and his clucth shots are more memorable to you. I suggest you read this article: http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time . Now the guy who wrote the article makes a living writing about basketball, I'm sure he knows a lot more than you and I do who take basketball as just a hobby.


The media in Croatia stopped caring about the NBA around 2000-2001, last game they broadcasted was probably a regular season one. I don't really care much what other people think, I create my own view on things in life including basketball. There's people who praise certain players too much, too much that they don't deserve that. LeBron's fans are way more realistic when it comes to praising. Sometimes they go to far I admit that, but Kobe's fans are saying he's better than Jordan on a regular basis which is true as almost as me walking on the Moon as I write this post.


And about the free time thing, that's personal so no point in discussing it.  : ok:

The starters around him included SMUSH Parker, a young player who is now out of the league, a coach that couldn't finish out a season because he got sick, and a big man who had Parkinson's disease.  It was a miracle they made the playoffs.  He didn't crumble, he played great, his team around him was bad.

What you knuckleheads are failing to realize is that championship teams always have great players all around.  Name me a championship team that had ONE guy carry them to the Larry O.  You can't, its impossible.


Yeah I read that article.  Completely bogus.  That's what I was mentioning before about those bogus clutch stats. 

Why did he pick only the final 24 seconds of a game?  Last possession?  That doesn't indicate crunch time!  Clearly the author has an agenda against Kobe and he is going out of his way to write that article and make Bryant look bad.  In all my years of watching basketball, crunch time has never been about the final 24 seconds.

You don't think the media ever bends the truth to write their story?  You say your other passion is GNR, look at all the negative articles that are written about Axl.  Most of them contain few solid and truthful statements.

And hold the phone.  LeBron has accomplished more individually in 7 years than Kobe HOW?  A scoring average?  Is that your metric of success?  More "regular season" MVP's?

Kobe had 3 rings after his 6th NBA campaign.  And NO, he didn't win only because of Shaq.  Shaq would not have won it without Kobe, so don't use that tired old argument.

And let's be honest, one of Steve Nash's MVP's belongs to Kobe.  At the very least! 

And Nowitzki?  He won his MVP the year he got BOUNCED from the first round of the playoffs by Golden State!  Yeah, very valuable indeed.

So yeah, Lebron didn't win any championships only because he didn't have someone win them for him.


Child, please.  He had the best record in the league before he decided to disappear.  He also pulls that disappearing act in Miami.  How many last second shots has he missed this year?

I beg you, please pay more attention to basketball before you come on here and make ludicrous statements.

Yeah yeah, it's all a big conspiracy against Bryant. All made up to make him look bad and to support my bogus claims. Real arguments there, very nice.  :yes:

Don't know the reason to put Axl in the conversation, but we all know the real reason the media doesn't like him but that's another topic not even connected to this one. Fact is the media is the one to blame for overrating Kobe so much before LeBron started playing up to his potential, cause you had to sell something after MJ left, the AI experiment was working but Stern was against it so they had to do something else than that. They saw Kobe as a player who could somehow copy MJ's moves and stuff he did, clearly they failed but somehow they are still sticking to their "let's praise Kobe and make a God out of him" which is insane. Somebody who chokes in a Game 7 against his biggest rival and his teammates rescue him cannot be even mentioned in the same sentence as MJ.

Sorry to disappoint you again but Kobe was just a complementary player (okay maybe a bit more important than others) to Shaq. It was Shaq's team, he won all the Finals MVPs, the regular season MVP, he was the emotional leader. The small things were done by Kobe, Fisher (few buzzer beaters), Horry (also buzzer beaters), Rick Fox and other complementary players. And don't tell me Shaq wouldn't do it without Kobe, if Kobe took at least 1 finals MVP award I'd say he was important but he wasn't he was just one of the pieces around Shaq.


LeBron James did accomplish more than Bryant in his first 7+ seasons. In terms of stats (higher fg%, more assists, more rebounds), efficiency, making a impact on his whole team, making other people around him play better cause after all basketball is a team sport and not "let me shoot over 3 defenders even though I have 2 open teammates who can make a open 3 in their sleep". And yeah, more regular season MVP awards does say LeBron is better than Kobe. The true meaning of the award is "being the most valuable player on (one of) the best teams in the league". LeBron did lead his team by himself to the finals in '07, remember what he did to Detroit alone? When did Bryant bring his team on his own shoulders to the finals? Let me answer it for you - NEVER. How many time did Kobe's team won 60 games in a regular season? Just once. Lebron? Twice. Now you compare Kobe's team to LeBron's team in those seasons.


And let's be honest. Which one from Nash did he deserve? The one where his team won 34 games or the one where his team won 45 games?

Nowitzki, like I said everyone knows the MVP award is a regular season award and it goes to the best player on (one of) the best team. Dirk won it fair and square.


And why are you bringing out LeBron's stats in the final seconds of the game? I've never said LeBron is clutch, he still has a lot to prove when it comes to that. And don't forget, clutch isn't the last seconds of the ball game. After all, you said it yourself.  : ok:


No need to call someone who's 1 year younger than yourself a child when you're out of arguments. No need for that.  ;)

I hate them both, but I think Kobe is still the best player in the NBA.  I have little faith in Lebron taking and hitting big shots.  I have seen Kobe do it to my Celtics time and again over the years.  Lebron is obviously younger and could take it to that level someday, but he's not there yet.  Not as far as I'm concerned.

And speaking of my Celtics.  God they're struggling heading to the finish line AGAIN.  Did the same thing last year and then made that improbable run to the finals.  So I can't get TOO worried just yet.  But this year it seems like the risky trade they made may have really messed up team unity.  Trying to get all these new guys mixed in is proving much more difficult than I could've imagined.  Plus without the O'Neal's, they have no legit post presence.  And if we have to rely on those 2 guys to be the "answer", that's a scary proposition.  The Bulls look damn strong anyway, so it might not matter.  I knew Lebron should've gone to Chicago.  They're better, and younger than the Heat.

I will disagree with anyone who says Carmelo Anthony is a great player.

He is a great "Scorer" but he isn't a great basketball player.

Guy has little impact on a team, stops the ball, hogs the ball, plays zero defense, makes noone better.

I think i called him Vince Carter

Here's a better article that looks at the last 5 minutes of "crunch time" comparing Bron & Kobe... while I wouldn't trust James to hit a buzzer beater, this article suggests that having Kobe on the floor makes it MORE likely that you will need a last second shot.  I don't doubt it after I've seen some of the horrible shots this guy jacks up over double or triple coverage towards the end of close games:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/columns/story?columnist=haberstroh_tom&page=KobeLeBronclutch-101222

The team context

So the question then becomes: Is James selfishly piling up stats at the expense of his team's success?

It appears to be the opposite.

James' teams have outscored opponents by 126 points in his 228 minutes of clutch play, debunking the theory that James is merely a compiler of empty stats; his individual play has coincided with winning basketball. Bryant is another story. Even with far superior teammates than James' former Cavs crew, Bryant has posted a minus-13 plus-minus in his 224 minutes of clutch situations. That is to say, the Lakers have, quite shockingly, been a losing team with Bryant on the floor down the stretch over the past two seasons.

This is a critical point. Boiling down clutch performance to six last-second shots is an extremely narrow view of the game. The circumstance happens so rarely that it is virtually a trivial exercise in randomness. To put it in perspective, Bryant and James have played a combined 7,871 minutes over the past two regular seasons, and only 17 of those minutes were played when their respective teams needed a "big shot" (tied or trailing by no more than three points with the game clock at less than 24 seconds). That's 0.02 percent of the time.

These numbers reveal James' teams haven't needed last-second heroics because his monstrous late-game play pushes the close game out of reach, rendering a game-winning shot unnecessary. Houston Rockets general manager Daryl Morey once said, "Good teams don't win close games -- they avoid them." And the player who personifies that ethos is James.

Wow! that is very interesting Eazy.

That's what I was trying to say. The whole impact that Bryant has on his team is not even close to what Lebron does. That +/- stat just shows that Bryant gets his team into trouble a lot more than he saves them from trouble. But do you ever see Kobe get blamed for the bad things he does? No. Do you see him when he hits a game winner and gets all the credits? Absolutely. That's the thing that bothers me, it's like they are artificially making a hero out of him which he is definately far from.

They are scary bad right now, no doubt about it, but I don't think it's because of the trade. The C's were one of the best teams in the NBA early on, with Perk on the bench. Plus their problem isn't defense during this rut, it's their scoring. Perk wasn't exactly an offensive force. Rondo seems off, and everyone seems to be slumping at the same time, unfortunately. As much as I hate the fact that Perk is gone, it was clear this was gonna be his last year here, so landing Green and Curly looks awfully good as opposed to losing Perk in FA.

I don't expect much if anything from JO other than 6 hard fouls. 20 minutes from Shaq could make a HUGE difference, but getting Rondo back on track will determine how far the C's go. If Shaq comes back, our bench is gonna look awfully good. As bad as they look right now, I still can't see many teams beating them in a 7 game series. Chicago does scare me though, especially since they will most likely have home court.

Yeah I don't really blame the trade either, although their post defense is severely lacking at the moment.  Kristic is a fine offensive player, but no name big men like Deandre Jordan have been lighting up the C's with regularity since the trade.  I thought when the trade went down that it was a good move for the future, but not necessarily for THIS season.  So far, it hasn't helped.  You're right though, if Rondo can get back on track and Shaq can give them something positive, and the other key players can get out of the rut they've been in, they'll be fine.  It happened last year, so I do think they'll be fine.  The only problem is, there's more tough competition in the East this year.  Chicago is no joke and as much as I've made fun of the Heat this year, they're obviously a solid team.  And the C's played the Magic well with Perk defending and limiting Dwight Howard.  Not that he did it all by himself, but you have one less guy to throw at him because as I said, Kristic is useless on defense.  So Orlando probably wouldn't be a walk in the park either.

The problem with Boston is, they are super old. So they are trying to win this year but also play for the future. its a dangerous balancing act but Boston were 100 percent smart trading Kendrick Perkins and here is why:

Boston have MAYBE a 2 year window left. KG is old,Allen is old, Pierce is knocking on the door of being OLD.

Kendrick Perkins looks good largely thanks to the system and players around him. Rondo,KG are all world defenders, Perkins can play his role and excel but in NO WAY do u give 9 million dollars per season to a guy averaging 5pts and 5rebs a game and potentially shaky/injured knees.

Why?

Cause Boston will be rebuilding soon and the last thing u want, is a horrible contract on your books and thats what Perkins would be. Perkins is worth it on a great team, but on a rebuilding team, he eats up important salary cap dollars giving u virtually no impact on the game.

So the trade brings in a young potentially very good swingman in Jeff Green. Rondo is still very young.... so they have a shot to stay at least a playoff team after this window of Allen,pierce and KG is over.

I agree, that's how I view it as well.

Unfortunately though, Perk was really well liked among his teammates.  He was best friends with Rondo and Rajon's play has fallen off dramatically since the trade.  It may just be a coincidence, or he could be "tanking" it because his heart just isn't in it like it used to be.  He was benched last night, after his horrendous play of late.  They said it was for a pinky injury, but the overall thought is there's way more to it than that and has very little to do with physical health.  When he's on, Rondo is one of the best PG's in the game.  But he's extremely moody, and has had his fair share of issues during his tenure with the Celtics.  The last couple of years, Danny Ainge has contemplated trading him away, and I used to think that was an insane thought.  But now I can at least accept why it would be considered.  He's almost like the Manny Ramirez of the Celtics.

Hopefully he gets his ass in line, and soon.  Get over it, your friend was traded away.  It happens.  Sports is big business, it's nothing personal.

I really don't want to believe Rondo's poor play is due to Perk being traded. That would be ridiculous on his part. I think it's more likely due to fatigue, injuries. He has been asked to play a ton of minutes with West being injured all year, and vying for the top seed. If C's aren't 2 games back, I don't think Rondo is benched last night, but now that the top spot seems unlikely at this point, I hope he gets his rest, because C's are going now where fast unless he returns to form.

If we are playing make believe, and $ is no factor, I'd definitely prefer having Perk in the lineup for the C's. He's the least talented player of the starting 5, but he fit the C's system like a glove. KG is the best defensive player on the team, and one of the best we will ever see, but Perk was the guy the defense sent players to. He's was the enforcer, the guy who made you think twice about going to the hole.

I don't have a problem with the trade under the unfortunate circumstances that in reality, $ is a huge factor. The only move that Ainge made, or didn't make that I have a problem with was letting Tony Allen walk. If he's here, C's aren't desperate for someone to get PP rest, and maybe C's can live with riding out the season with Perk, and losing him as FA. I think Green's a nicer player than TA, but Perk and TA looks a lot better than Green and Krystic.

Not entirely sure it was necessary to dump Harongody and Erden either(pretty sure I butchered their names). Could have used their toughness/fouls. C's went from size being a strength to a weakness fast.

In reality, Perk wasn't gonna be worth the contract it would take to keep him here. He was gone the day he rejected the max C's could offer. I agree that losing him does suddenly make the Heat, and to some degree the Magic more scary than before. I didn't view either as a real threat before the trade. I thought Perk would be the most missed vs LA if that match up happened, but after watching a small Heat lineup have their way vs LA, it doesn't seem as big a deal.

Scary to think about it, but they are going to need Shaq to contribute. If he can, C's could still be a real dangerous team.
KG is a better player now than he was last year.

I may have to give the C's a rest, myself. Watching them lose to teams like the Bobcats and Pacers is painful!
Rondo played well..

Yeah, they are scary bad right now.  They barely beat the T-wolves the other night.  I'm hoping they can right the ship for the playoffs, but that's hard to imagine the way they've been playing.

I know, and without K Love..

Hopefully LA, Chicago and Miami are peaking too soon!

I want a Spurs/Celtics Finals, so both teams better get their shit together.

I disagree with the Carter nonsense.  Carmelo single handily won a national title with Syracuse.  He has also averaged 30 points a game in a playoff series and been to the conference finals and took the Lakers to 6.  Vince Carter has never played in a big game in his life.  Carmelo Anthony is one of the best players in the league.  I think the word "great" is overused in the NBA.  Great is used to describe guys that played on the first Dream Team, there are only about 5 or 6  GREAT NBA players in the NBA playing at that level right now.  Duncan, Bryant, Lebron, Wade,  guys like that. 

Vince Carter took a much worse Toronto into 2nd round losing in 7 to Iverson's Philly team. he has been out of the first rd of the playoffs more than Melo. Carmelo has been out of first rd ONCE in 7 seasons. will be 8 after this year.

in 2005 with NJ Vince average 29.6ppg  7 rebs and 5 assists

Injuries also hurt a lot of Vince's production but i think they are very similar as they both were considered big superstars and neither do much defensively or to make teammates better.


 I think u forget how famous and highly regarded Vince was his first 3 or 4 seasons.

College titles mean absolutely nothing. Vince played in a different era where guys stayed so competition was much tougher.

I agree that I personally don't care about college titles, but it does mean something for you to take a team on your back and bring them to a championship.  He had no help on that team.  Carmelo Anthony is a much better player than Vince Carter ever was.  You mentioned how he took the Raptors to the second round of the playoffs and lost to the 2001 Sixers who themselves were the 2nd worst team Ive ever seen go to a Finals(07 Cavs are number 1)  Carmelo Anthony is going to win a championship with the Knicks.  They have the money, and they play in the mecca of baskeball with 2 superstars, with Chris Paul or Deron Williams on the way.  It might not be next year or the year after, but Carmelo will get a ring in New York.  They just have to get rid of that soft ass D'Antoni, one of the most overated coaches in NBA History.

He has been way more consistent than Vince as far as career numbers but I think carmelo is more Vince Carter than Kobe Bryant.

I do agree with your great statement.

not sure bout NY. If they get Chris Paul, then yeah, i can def see titles. the way its constructed now? They will never get passed Miami.

next year, good quality veterans will go to Miami for cheap.

Agree, the Knicks are headed in the right direction.  It's a bit premature to get on Carmelo for not taking the Knicks to new heights.  There's an adjustment period, even for the great ones.  The Knicks aren't a great team yet, give them that elite PG and that will change.  And as much as I hate NY teams, the NBA will be much better if the Knicks are a major player.

Melo and Amare will have to commit themselves on the defensive end if they ever intend to live up to the hype that surrounds them. There is no reason to believe that will happen, as they haven't really shown any signs of doing so half way through their careers. I was a fan of Melo, and waiting for him to play to his potential, but now that he is in NY, I hope he keeps avoiding D like the plague! They aren't far off as far as personnel, but they aren't close when it comes to mindset. That has a lot to do with D' Antoni. Tough to be successful with him at the helm. He's the last guy you want trying to turn the big 2 around. Hopefully Dolan re ups him long term. Maybe bring Isiah back too.

Celtics finally showed they have a pulse last night!
Great game, hopefully it was a Finals preview, but not as confident as I was 2 months ago.

yeah, they need to get a few more pieces, a few hustle guys on defense and rebounding, similar to Oakley or Mason.  D'Antoni must either 1. GO or 2. hire a defensive assistant.  An NBA title has never been won without defense.  Hey did anyone happen to catch the Laker/Mavs game last night?  The  "May" Mavericks showed up a month early.   :hihi:

That was a terrible game.

Dirk statistically outplayed Kobe but as i have been preaching in this thread, Dirk doesn't have Bynum,Odom or Gasol.

Let us also not forget Dallas was on 2nd night of back to back AND their 2nd best player, Caron Butler is injured.

you should save some of those excuses for Dallas' mid may meltdown. :hihi:

honestly, if I had to breakdown why Dallas lose, it is coaching and front office mostly.

people can call dirk soft or whatever they want, but 2 people in NBA over past 20 years have averaged 25pts and over 10rebs in their playoff career. Dirk and Shaq thats it

so Dirk is far from why they lose in the playoffs.

Dallas' problem which they finally fixed with Tyson Chandler, was never having a capable big man. Also, Rick Carlisle's rotations are just disastrous and ridiculous. I think players need defined roles/minutes etc. Carlisle throws shit against the wall and sees what sticks and that doesn't work.

first huge mess up was not trading Caron Butler's expiring contract for Gerald Wallace. Wallace is EXACTLY the player Dallas has needed for a decade to get over the hump. tough,physical,athletic,extremely versatile and great defensively. He's a guy that could guard the Kobe's etc in the playoffs.

Next mistake was not inquiring about Deron Williams. Executives have to know if a name like that is available. Williams is from Dallas, would've been a perfect fit. No idea why Roddy Beaubois is considered "Untouchable" he is decent but I'd give him up for Deron Williams.


Next mistake is the PG position. I've never liked the Devon Harris for Kidd trade. Kidd is old, doesn't score and is a defensive liability at his age. When Dallas got to the finals, they were one of the lowest assist teams in the league.

Next problem is JJ Barea. FUCK i hate this guy. he can score here and there but once again, defensive liability, makes 2 stupid plays for every one good play.

One more thing on Carmelo being overrated for not being able to take his teams deep into the playoffs.  There have been plenty of GREAT players in the past that haven't had much success in the playoffs.  It's hard to build a championship team in the NBA.  You need great players, and that's plural, meaning more than just one.  Kevin Garnett never accomplished much in the playoffs in Minnesota.  Was he garbage back then and then all of a sudden became a good player when he joined Paul Pierce and Ray Allen?

Just saying, you can't put too much weight on a guy for not winning in the post-season.  It mean a lot, but not everything.

once again Faldor

Basketball is a team game

compare KG's Minny teams to what Melo has in Denver.



On a great note

my favorite player of all time Dennis Rodman elected to Hall of Fame! One of the greatest players of all time, I don't care what anyone says. people who really know the game, understand there is way more to winning and being great than just scoring. I'll take Rodman over a 20 and 10 guy anyday of the week.

I understand that.  I just don't think Denver had THAT great a TEAM.  One year they did and they made it to the Conference Finals.  What's so bad about that?  What's wrong with KG and Stephon Marbury.  Did they not underachieve?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHWWV6-njbc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHWWV6-njbc)

Im not a KG fan either. I got hundreds of post on 2ksports years ago where I was the only one calling KG overrated and not a Superstar. I always said KG is more of a superstar role player and he can't be the man. I said with a Kobe or Iverson or big time scorer he'd be a monster and i was proven right on that.

Melo is a GREAT scorer. one of the best to ever do it. but he is an overrated 'Basketball" player. 

My favorite player and newly elected to the Hall of Fame Dennis Rodman proved there is way more to basketball than scoring. Melo does one thing great but the rest of his game is just a bit above average. defense below average.

I don't disagree with you, but I think if he was put in the right situation, as with anyone, he could succeed and look a lot better in doing so.  If he's on a flawless team, then we wouldn't be having this discussion, since this is a TEAM game.  He's not flawless and he's never been on the BEST team in the league, so I don't see any reason to get on him for not taking his team to new heights.  There's only so much ONE man can do.

well for me, the indictment on Melo is how well Denver has done without him.

How can a team lose a superstar and be better?

Look at Cleveland without Lebron for instance? Utah without Deron Williams etc.

I hear that, but there can be a lot that goes into that.  I mean, Denver played this entire season knowing that Carmelo was going to leave,,, eventually.  That can be quite a burden on a team.  They probably expected him to be traded sometime during the year and had that in their minds the whole time.  It's tough to stay focused in that situation.  So when he was eventually traded, the burden was lifted, and they were free to play without any outside disturbances.  It's not necessarily that they're a better team without him.  It might look that way on paper, but I think that's far from the truth.

Melo is definitely a ballstopper though. he gets tons of isolations and the rest of the team is left to just watch. i think that greatly impacts energy levels, defensive intensity etc.

now with Melo gone, guys are just running up and down, everyone is playing super hard.

I'd say KG is far from overrated. If you want him to jack up 30 shots to score 30 points a night like Kobe, he's not your man. If you want someone to anchor your defense, play every game like it's his last, and make sure his teammates do the same, KG is your guy. Part of what makes KG as good as he is is the fact that he is so unselfish. He makes his teammates better. Think about how much easier he makes Doc's life. He's the biggest reason C's went from Lottery picks to NBA champs.

I agree Melo is overrated, just for the simple fact that he is a defensive liability, which could change if he put in the effort. As much as he wanted to play for NY, he didn't put himself in the best situation. He's playing for an incompetent owner, the worst possible coach to motivate him to play defense, playing alongside another high paid defensive liability, with not much financial flexibility to add more talent. Even if they do add Deron, or Paul, it's going to come down to Melo and Amare drastically altering their games to have any chance of competing with elite teams. Still plenty of time to turn it around though. If Melo was playing with KG as opposed to Amare, things would probably be a lot different.

Denver is certainly a fun team to watch right now. I agree they are a more complete team. Everyone knows they are going to get touches now, so they're more focused on both ends.

Shaq came back last night for the C's, for 6 minutes.  Then he strained his calf muscle and hobbled off the floor.  They're "saying" it's nothing major and he should be fine in a few weeks.  But he just returned after missing a few months and lasted 6 minutes, so I don't think you could expect much of anything out of him from here on out.  And that's a huge blow to the C's.  Now they have to rely on Jermaine O'Neal, if he can stay healthy, and Nenad Kristic, who is a sieve on defense.

I guess that's what happens with old teams though.  Probably the most talented team in the NBA when completely healthy, but old teams have trouble staying healthy.

Yeah that was painful to see. Hopefully it heals quick, but tough to be too optimistic about it.
I'm not counting them out yet though, even though they look horrible. I'm just not ready for the Sox yet!

They should be able to get out of the first round w/o Shaq regardless, so he should have time to heal. Hopefully he can contribute.
C's were the best team in the NBA when healthy, but that didn't last long.

Sad part is, they weren't confident with Perk being able to stay on the floor, and felt odds were better going with Shaq, JO and Krystic.
Can't seem to get more than 1 of em healthy at a time!

Just saw Carmelo Anthony and Spike Lee outside my work, like 5 feet away from me, he just finished taking pictures with people outside the Garden.  Eastern Conference Player of the week!

1. Led Knicks to a perfect 3-0 week
2. Knicks clinch first playoff berth since 2003-04 season
3. Averaged league-best 34.4 points to go along with 8.3 rebounds & 3.3 assists

Nothing wrong with those stats!

Looks like Shaq, Murphy and Nenad are all due back this week, so all of a sudden, C's have length if they can stay on the floor.
I love their chances if they do. Still gotta find a way to get Ray Ray more involved, and Green has to get aggressive when he's out there.

I'd be pleasantly surprised if Shaq is ready to go this week.  I was figuring on the playoffs at best, if not the second round (if they were to advance).  And if he does play, can he stay healthy for the full grind of the playoffs?  It's hard to imagine he could the way his health has been this year.  Unless he's not all that injured and they're just playing it safe this whole time. 

Yeah, LeBron had almost the same stats (but with a higher fg%, and a few more asists and steals) but the turnovers probably cost him the award. (6 for Melo and 15 for LeBron)


I've bet my money on Boston before the season started, but it looks like they fucked it up with that trade when they got rid of Perk. He was probably their missing piece for the finals and probably the tittle. Now they got Krstic, and the two O'Neals and no time to build chemistry with them. Will be interesting to see what happens with them.

That's what I have been hoping all year, that they were just saving him. He has a tendency to start fast and fade down the stretch the last few years, so was hoping that was the reason he hasn't been playing. Seeing him go out after 5 minutes made me a lot more nervous though! I guess we will find out soon enough. I'm sure he will do everything in his power to get out there since it's most likely his last chance at another ring.

[/quote]



I've bet my money on Boston before the season started, but it looks like they fucked it up with that trade when they got rid of Perk. He was probably their missing piece for the finals and probably the tittle. Now they got Krstic, and the two O'Neals and no time to build chemistry with them. Will be interesting to see what happens with them.
[/quote]

The Perk trade will be brought up until C's win w/o him, no doubt. I'm not too concerned about chemistry when it comes to Shaq and JO though, just health. If they are all healthy, and that's a big "if", Shaq should fit back in seamlessly. There won't be as much pressure on Nenad coming off the bench. I really want to see Green more aggressive. He's got some moves that remind me of Pierce. He's just too passive thus far.

As much as I'd like to see Perk in green right now, when C's were clicking early, it was w/o him. Even w/o Shaq, I can see them competing with most teams. Lakers, because of their size are the only team that would really scare me without him. That's a long way away, and if C's and Lakers got that far, I think Shaq would have leg transplants if that's what it took for him to have a chance to beat Kobe.

number 2 doesn't count as they were playoff team before trade.

so they're not in the Playoffs?   :hihi:

just saying Melo isn't why they are a playoff team for first time since 2003-04


Also denver 15-4 just beat the red hot lakers AT LA in a must win for LA

No other team could  trade their biggest superstar and get better which is why i think Melo is a great scorer, but bad teammate/overall basketball player.

Denver was also irrelevant for about 25 years (minus 1 or 2 Mutumbo seasons) before Melo got there.

This thread is getting better and better. So many thinks to comment on now...

Ok, regarding the Jordan debate, whether if he should be labeled as the best player of all time, or if he would've been another Iverson if Paxon or Pippen had not stepped in...I believe I'm the oldest one here posting on this board. I've been watching NBA basketball since 1986, some of you weren't even born yet...so let me just say...

I'm biased when it comes to MJ, so take this with a grain of salt, however, saying MJ would've been another Iverson had not been for Pippen or Paxon is probably the biggest piece of crap I've read here (sorry Garry).  Paxson became a bull in 1985, Scottie in 1987. The Bulls didn't win a ring until 1991. Paxson and Pippen  were just mediocre players (for God's sake, look at Paxson stats...they are simply awful). Scottie, didn't even start on his first year (Brad Sellers did). Actually, in 1987, the best Bulls players were Jordan and then Charles Oakley, who got traded to the Knicks for....Bill Cartwright (replacement Center for Pat Ewing).

It was playing alongside MJ what make Pippen the player he later became.  If you take a look at the Bulls roaster the first three rings, you see a team with a super star (MJ), a decent player WHO became an all start thanx to MJ (Pippen), a power foward with decent numbers (Horace Grant) and the forgotten names of ; Cliff Levingston, Craig Hodges, Will Perdue, Bill Cartwright, Rodney McCray,.... The Bulls won those three rings because each and every player, had a very specific role. MJ learned the hard way, he knew he couldn't go past Detroit scoring 40 points per game, so he got all his team mates involved. Some of you may have read the book "The Jordan Rules"  - if you haven't, please read it, it's an amazing insight on the Bulls locker room before they actually won the first ring - MJ was just somebody who didn't trust his team and even made fun of some of his team mates. However, he realized he needed them in order to win a ring, so he made the necessary changes.

Pippen later became an allstar, olimpic gold medalist, listed amongst the top 50 players in NBA history....you name it. HOWEVER, do not forget had not been for MJ, I have no doubts he would've never accomplished anything. Take a look and see what he's done without MJ.

Regarding Kobe, I like him. I believe he's the best player of the decade. Hands down. He should've been awarded with 3 MVP's already...but to go as far as to say he is a better player than MJ is fucking ridiculous. MJ is a thousand light years away from Kobe. There's no possible comparision. I have seen both players play at their prime and YES, Kobe is the closest thing we have to MJ today, but that's it. You can take a look at individual accomplishments, team efforts.... there's no comparision. MJ wins hands down. In addition, the impact MJ had in the league will NEVER, EVER be seen by any other player. For God's sake, Jordan is the reason why an 11 year old kid from fucking Madrid, Spain, started to watch the NBA on TV. He was the main reason why spanish TV back in 1987 started to show LIVE NBA games every friday. I remember, at least twice a month, we had a BULLS game (and that was when Bird and Magic were in their prime).

Kobe is an amazing player and I say he's a top 10 of all time. But he's not Michael Jordan.

As per Lebron James, he's a tremendous STATS player. He just puts up numbers on his stats sheet night after night....but to me it seems like he does nothing and scores 25. I mean, nothing seems to happen and all of the sudden he's one rebound away from a triple double. Don't get me wrong, that's an incredible feature, but...will he ever do something else?? Will he ever win a ring?? Will he ever be the clucth player MJ was? (or even KOBE is now)? I doubt it.

Who will win the title this year? Hard to say. The Lakers and Celtics are strong favorites, as usual. I don't believe the HEAT have the collective intangibles needed to win a ring. The Mavericks, they will never make it. They had a chance 4 years back, but they blew it. Dirk is a great player, but to say if he was american he would've been a top 10 all timer, is silly. There're so many players I can think off right now who could be considered higher up on this ranking than Dirk; Karl Malone, Moses Malone, Stockton, Barkley, Duncan, Olayuwon, Oscar Robertson, Bird, Magic, Jabbar, Kobe, MJ, Oneil, Jerry West, Russell, Bob Cousy, Dr J, Kevin Mchale... The Bulls, seem to be very strong, but they won't be able to go past the Celtics in the playoffs, San Anton will probably lose in the West Semis.

So to me, The Celtics and the Lakers will play the finals again. LA will win.


PS. Melo is a great offensive player, but he's one of the worse defenders in the league. The knicks WILL never win a title unless they get a decent back-up point guard, decent shooting guard and a decent center. Amare and Melo are too dumb to make their teammates better. Chauncy it's too old.

but they were irrelevant with Melo. 2-7 in playoff series. look at last year. Karl went out with cancer. did Melo step up and lead the team? NO, the bottom fell out. Leaders don't let that happen.


Ignatius: How bout the year after Jordan retired when Bulls won 50plus games and made it to Semi Finals only to be cheated in game 7 against knicks? pippen was a great all around player.

yeah but that was a championship team from top to bottom with the best coach of the last 30 years.  Who do the Nuggets have? Nene?  a washed up Kmart?   

The Nuggets couldn't even spell playoffs before Melo got there. He also averaged 30 points in a playoff series that they lost.  That wasn't his fault.

Ignatius

I agree with just about everything you said.
The Kobe/Jordan debate to me is so tired it's unbelievable. The only reason it ever comes up is because the media, fans too young to have seen MJ, or Laker ballwashers desperately want to believe it's true.

I do happen to have more faith in Lebron for some reason though. He doesn't seem to be the most intelligent guy to ever play, but most of his real bad decisions seem to come off of the court. He's never going to be the shooter MJ was, but he doesn't have to be. I think Wade is the perfect teammate for him. I think the mistake Miami made was Bosh. They severely overrated him in my opinion. My C's seem to have Lebron's number, but any team with Wade on it still scares me, and I think they actually match up better with LA than they do most other playoff teams, if they can get that far.

C's may be a long shot this year, since at some point they will need something out of Shaq, but I'm not writing them off. Gasol had his way with KG last year because KG was playing on one leg and with a bad shoulder. A healthy KG showed he wins that matchup early this year. He was a shell of himself last season, and it cost the C's another ring in my opinion.

KG needs some help in the frontcourt though.  I'm not counting on much from Shaq, and who knows what Jermaine O'Neal can give you.  But if neither of them are considerate contributors, I don't think Kristic and Big Baby is enough help for KG down low.

And I agree, MJ is the best ever.  Kobe is the best today, despite any "clutch" stats you want to throw at me.

@ D, the bulls in 93-94 had a solid season. But they couldn't get past the knicks in the east semis. If you watched any of those games held at NY, the bulls had no chance. All those matches were so one-sided that I had no doubts the Knicks didn't really work hard to win despite the 7 matches.

Pippen had an ok season. He averaged one single point more than what he had the previous year. Everyone expected Scottie to score at least 5 more points since Jordan retired, but Scottie was never the scorer Michael was.

In addition, everyone expected pippen to fill in the leadership gap Jordan left but he didn't. You may not remember this but in 1994, in a very close game, Jackson wrote up the game winning shot for Tony kukoc. Scottie, got so
angry he refused to play. Well, it turns out Kukoc shot at the buzzer and scored the game winning three. Scottie walked off the court, head down, while his team mates were celebrating the win on court.

Next season, the bulls had a 34-32 W-L record before Jordan came back. This proves they were already a mediocre team. Then Jordan came back, the bulls won 13 and lost 5, made it to the playoffs and lost against Orlando in the semis. There we had a "clumsy" Jordan who only averaged 26 points per game. In addition, his clutchness was not there. That summer Jordan worked his ass off to take his team back to the top.

Next season, 95/96 the NBA witness the most successful record in the league's history when Chicago had a 72-10 W-L record. Jordan and the bulls would win three more rings.

So yeah, pippen was a great player, but he was no Jordan.

Another week, another Eastern Conference Player of the Week for Melo...

1. Led Knicks to 4-0 week
2. Averaged 28.3 points, 9.5 rebounds, 1.5 blocks & 1.0 steals
3. .529% (18-of-34) from three-point range

did you watch that series?  If it werent for that bullshit call that gave Hubert Davis those free throws in Game 5, the Knicks actually lose that series in 6.

In the first 3 games at the Garden, the Knicks won by 5, 4 and 1 point.  The last one stolen by the Knicks on a b.s foul call.  What games were you watching that you say these were not competitive?

Yeah, I watched that series too.  Everyone's got their own opinion, but the consensus at the time was that the Bulls were robbed.

As for Pippen, nobody argued he was Jordan, only that he was a great all-around player, which he was without question. 

I watched that series and I don't remember being so close. Guess you are right though, my memory did not serve me well this time.

Here we go.

Should be fun.

Though without AI the NBA will probably never be fun for me again.

Surprise, surprise.  Another setback for Shaq.

http://www.csnne.com/04/16/11/Shaq-out-indefinitely/v1_landing_celtics.html?blockID=505329&feedID=3945

Apr 16, 2011

By A. Sherrod Blakely
CSNNE.com

WALTHAM ? Shaquille O'Neal failed a conditioning test this morning, and has been ruled out indefinitely by the Boston Celtics.

Danny Ainge, Boston's president of basketball operations, made the announcement this afternoon with team physician, Dr. Brian McKeon.

"He has been making progress," Ainge said. "We tried to get him out there to practice today, simulate the game as much as we could. He's not ready. We don't know when he'll be ready."

McKeon said the trial O'Neal was involved in consisted of him running, a test McKeon acknowledged O'Neal had failed.

"It didn't work," McKeon said. "It's just too sore. We're going to spend another ... get back to tomorrow and hopefully we'll get him back soon."

O'Neal has had an assortment of right leg injuries all season.

After missing 27 games, O'Neal returned to the Celtics lineup on April 3 against the Detroit Pistons. He played well, but re-aggravated his right calf injury after less than six minutes of court time.

McKeon said the nature of his injury remains in the calf and Achilles region of his right leg.

"This is a tough injury," McKeon said. "The blood supply in this area is so weak. It just needs time."

Time is something O'Neal and the Celtics don't have a lot of right now.

New York doesn't have a ton of big bodies in the frontcourt, so to not have O'Neal for some or even all of the Knicks series, probably won't have much of an impact.

But when you look at a possible second-round matchup with the Miami Heat, size does matter.

And if the C's can somehow survive that, O'Neal and his presence will surely be needed if Boston runs into top-seeded Chicago.

Dirk HUGE fourth quarter last night. 18 pts in 4th!

CP3 just owned the Lakers.

Also Kobe's "I'll take every goddamn shot in the last 3-4 minutes of the game, who cares about teammates" attitude didn't help L.A. But then again I go used to that in like 2005 so nothing new there.

Nevertheless I expect L.A. to win it by 4:2 in the end.

Too bad West went down, who knows how would the Hornets play with him in the line up.

Next up Knicks @ Celtics. Should be fun. :)

Knicks impressed me tonight.  Actually played some pretty solid defense overall.  And Amare was a BEAST.  He could not be stopped.  Carmello had an off night though and was in some foul trouble early on. 

Ray Allen had a big game, as did Pierce and KG.  There was a Jermaine O'Neal sighting, and he actually played real solid.  It looked like turn back the clock night for him.  The Knicks played NO defense on Rondo, by design, and it worked to perfection for the most part.  C's are going to have to do something about that.  Billups went down towards the end of the game and didn't return.  We'll have to see if it's anything serious.  Without him, I wouldn't like the Knicks chances.

Celtics really didn't play all that great.  The Knicks certainly played better, IMO, but the C's escaped with a win.  And that's all that really matters this time of year.  Something the Lakers, Spurs, and Magic can't say for themselves.

Melo shows once again why he has only been out of first round once

terrible shot selection all game long. ball hawking, ball stopping.

Lakers will win series in spite of Kobe.

Haha, I know, it's painful. They may be able to get past the Knicks without him, but even that is looking suspect right now. If they start playing smarter ball I think they could even get past Miami w/o him, but gonna need Shaq vs Chicago, and def vs LA or OKC. The way they are playing right now they are lucky they aren't down 0-2. Hopefully they turn it on quick.

Couldn't ask for more out of Melo than he gave last night. Gutty performance out of the Knicks in general.

Some conflicting reports on the big guy...

Celts say Shaq has shown 'some improvement'
http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/nba/news/story?id=6396600

Source: C's not expecting Shaq in playoffs
http://www.eagletribune.com/sports/x461197727/Source-Cs-not-expecting-Shaq-in-playoffs

Here's hoping the first one is closer to the truth.

The good news is J.O. looks a lot better than I ever would have expected. Granted they didn't use him much last night, and he's still one hard foul away from season ending surgery, but good looks so far. Hoping Green steps the f up before it's too late. He has the skill, just needs to get aggressive.

to be nickpicky he still put the game in the hands of a guy he should know isn't capable in Jeffries THEN allowed Delonte West to catch ball in backcourt and run the clock down. Melo showed poor basketball IQ not knowing u were allowed to catch ball in backcourt and for not knowing to foul.


Dirk Nowitzki by the way is averaging 16 points per game............ in the FOURTH quarter.

That's being REAL nitpicky.  First off, like Melo said himself, he made the right play by passing to Jeffries.  It was Jared who made the wrong move by trying to pass the ball.  Melo was double teamed on the play and passed to Jeffries, who had good position at the time.  Carmelo played out of his mind good in game 2, you couldn't possibly convince anyone otherwise.

The lack of a quick foul was puzzling for sure.  Carmelo said he was gassed, but I'm not sure I buy that excuse.  Then again, he did have to exert a lot of energy being THE guy all night for the Knicks while putting up 42 and 17. 

As for the series, I have been extremely impressed with the Knicks so far.  I didn't think they had this amount of fight in them.  What they did in game 2 was remarkable without Billups AND Stoudamire (for MOST of the game).  They've actually outplayed the Celtics in the first two games and could easily be up 2-0.  Fortunately for the C's though, their coaching and overall experience has made the difference in the end. 

As a Celtic fan, I'm not sure how to feel at this point.  A win is a win, but they've been far from impressive.  I wonder how much of it is the Celtics playing poorly vs. the Knicks playing way above their heads.

well the media spin is on and anybody who watched that game knows Jeffries had KG come over on him. KG is only one of the greatest defensive players of all time. People today, when u hear them tell it, act like Jeffries had a wide open dunk which he didn't.

I just sometimes question Melo's basketball IQ

for instance he helped off Ray Allen in game 1 which led to Allen hitting game winning 3, bad IQ

he didn't know u could throw ball into back court and actually had to look to the bench to see if he was suppose to foul. thats worse than Donovan McNabb not knowing overtime ended in a tie.

Then, the jeffries play.. i think a superstar has to know who u can trust in certain situations. U cannot expect a scrub like Jared Jeffries to make that play. That game is on Melo to win or lose for better or worse and he has to feel the double team, split the double team or drive left past initial defender and away from the double, and make something happen going towards the basket.  he coulda scored 60. doesn't matter what he did once u factor in the two plays that lost the game. was it impressive? SURE but everyone knows when a star goes out, the other team relaxes. Boston saw amare go out and they relaxed.

Now, dont get me started on Kobe and how he scores 34 and they lose, scores 11 and they win just like game 7 of the finals.

Must be nice to have other superstars to pick u up.

if Dirk,Durant,Lebron *last year* score 11... they are losing by 20.

You can't have it both ways. Your common knock on the guy is that Melo doesn't make his teammates better, he's a ballhog etc, and overall I agree. But then to turn around and fault him for getting the ball to an open teammate rather than hoisting a hero shot when the defense has one objective, to stop YOU from getting a shot off. The C's were going to live with anyone other than Melo beating them. He essentially had PP, Baby and Ray on him. Jeffries was open, and made the wrong move, instead of going with his momentum, he spun around to his right, and that was all the time KG needed to make a hell of a play. Either way Melo doesn't win in that situation. If he shoots, it's a selfish shot double teamed. If he passes to an open player, it's his fault the guy can't convert. Don't get me wrong, I don't feel the least bit sorry for him, but I do find it a bit comical.

As for letting West go backcourt, that seemed to take the entire team, and coach by surprise. I put that on the incompetent Mike D'Antoni. It's his job to make the players aware of those possible scenarios.

The bench has done nothing for the C's so far, and that seems to be the difference right now. The starting unit is building leads, and the bench comes in to squander them. Could be a fatal flaw, since as a result, the starters are being forced to play more minutes. I think Baby will come around. West is money, he's going to help. Green showed some signs of life, hopefully he builds on it. Grabbing a rebound every now and again would be a nice change of scenery. They seemed to go away from Ray 2nd half of the game. PP was trying to take over for a while.

Absolutely, plus the fact that Carmello went to Jeffries a few possessions earlier when he was doubled and Jared drove right to the hoop and scored an easy 2.  The C's were doubling Carmello, so he expected to be doubled again, which he was.  He passed to the open man.  I don't see the harm in that.

And yeah, the non foul was a team wide problem, not just Carmello.  Nobody was chasing down West at that point.  On that same front, what was up with the Tony Douglas foul with 3:30 left in the first half.  It was like he was being instructed to foul, for NO REASON that I can think of.  It was his 3rd foul, and there's no reason to stop the clock at that point.  At times I don't think D'Antoni knows what the hell he's doing.

Absolutely, plus the fact that Carmello went to Jeffries a few possessions earlier when he was doubled and Jared drove right to the hoop and scored an easy 2.  The C's were doubling Carmello, so he expected to be doubled again, which he was.  He passed to the open man.  I don't see the harm in that.

And yeah, the non foul was a team wide problem, not just Carmello.  Nobody was chasing down West at that point.  On that same front, what was up with the Tony Douglas foul with 3:30 left in the first half.  It was like he was being instructed to foul, for NO REASON that I can think of.  It was his 3rd foul, and there's no reason to stop the clock at that point.  At times I don't think D'Antoni knows what the hell he's doing.
[/quote]


Haha, was that when he just all of a sudden charged Rondo full speed? Yeah, that was great.
I couldn't believe what I was seeing when no one chased down West, but I was absolutely loving it! It was the first play of the series where I wasn't pulling my hair out.

In close games, you have to love the C's because of their experience and coaching. I never understood how D'Antoni had a job in the NBA. Not sure what his strength is besides the fact that players enjoy playing for him, because they know he won't push them to play defense, and will let them run and shoot at will.

If the Knicks plan on doing anything serious they should get rid of D'Antoni. That guy doesn't know the word DEFENSE.

Sure it's gonna be fun scoring 110-120 per night, but you can't win with no D.

Just watching Bulls @ Pacers, half of the building is in red and cheering for the Bulls.  :hihi:

And Rose just twisted his ankle, hope he's okay.

WOW, i am still in shock and absolutely deflated after yesterday... .Blowing a 23pt lead..... u gotta be fucking KIDDING ME!

I blame that on coaching. Ever heard of double teaming Brandon Roy? Maybe go to the zone that has helped us all season???  just maybe?  Getting Dirk a shot in the last 2 mins? maybe?

That was a Dallas Mavericks playoff special at its finest yesterday... :hihi:

I could come on here and bitch how we got ripped on some terrible calls: Chandler's 5th foul when he clearly didn't touch Batum on the loose offensive rebound. or the other two ticky tack calls on Chandler

I could bitch about how there is no way they can overturn that out of bounds call with a minute left cause their was no conclusive evidence

truth is

when u blow a 23pt lead u deserve no excuses cause it never should've came to that anyway.

Best case scenario for the C's!
Series sweep, and now get to rest, and watch the 6ers hopefully make Miami work.
Not sure if Shaq was, or is going to be an option, but good to see them get past NY w/o him. Hopefully the rest is all he needs.
Among the contenders, C's seem to have the hot hand at the moment.

They get a few extra days rest, which should be good for them.  Can't hurt Shaq's progress...that's for sure.  Wonder if we'll see him this year at all.  Sure makes the Perkins trade sting a whole lot more.

I just hope the extra down time doesn't take away the "edge" they seem to have found down at MSG. 

I think that they have a shot vs Miami w/o him, but what a boost that would be for them if Shaq was able to return and contribute!
I hope JO can stay on the floor, because he is playing better than I expected he could. It would be nice to have Shaq down low to slam Wade or LBJ to the floor and make them think twice about coming inside. Not that I think Wade would get that message.

Should be a hell of a series with or w/o Shaq though. I think going against LBJ brings out the best in Pierce, and I'm never concerned about KG being anything less than 100% into it, but yea, hopefully they can carry that momentum into Miami.

I think u Boston fans have to take the Knicks series with a grain of salt. They did struggle and easily could've lost first 2 games. Won last 2 cause Amare and Chauncey were injured.

so even though I give Boston slight edge over Miami, I think their performance could be a bit fool's gold cause they looked terrible first two games against NY.

No doubt, I realize Knicks aren't exactly world beaters, and C's did look horrible first 2, but played progressively better throughout the series. The big 4 carried the team to a victory in game 3, but the bench finally stepped up, and game 4 was a team effort, which is good to see, no matter the opponent.
Green is starting to show what he is capable of at both ends of the floor. Even Curly showed flashes on D, haha.

Chauncey is a big loss because he's a smart, tested player, but if Rondo's on his game, he eats his lunch.
Melo and Amare don't play well together yet, I think Amare going down was the best thing to happen in Melo's mind because he could hoist up all the shots he wanted. It almost worked in game 3.

Still plenty of question marks, but Miami's got em as well. C's won't get away with all of the turnovers though, gotta clean that up against the elite teams or they'll make u pay. I'd like to see them get Murphy involved somehow. Underrated player, but maybe he's been rotting on the bench too long to contribute at this point..

Celtics will beat the Heat in 6 games.  They are too deep a team for the Heat right now even without Shaq, Miami is probably still a year or two away from being a true title contender. They have 2 great players, 1 good one and NOTHING else.

Mavs redeemed themselves last night. Mavs are playing fantastic defense. They are clearly the better team. series should be over.

LA will bounce back and get on a roll which is unfortunate, cause if LA played Dallas or Portland like NO, they would lose but I fully expect them to wake up and start steamrolling.


Miami have to be contenders. having 2 of the top 3 players automatically means u should compete for title. they have lost the copout of needing time when they did what they did.

yeah normally 2 of the top 3 players would make you a title contender, and I guess they are a contender but I would surprised if they actually won the title this year.  They have probably the worst supporting cast in NBA history, if they even had a decent bench they would win the title going away.

Yeah, but......I'm not yet convinced.

I agree with you that they SHOULD be title contenders.  But from what I've seen out of this team, in this case it looks like the sum or the parts is less than the parts, themselves. 

The other thing is: Boston might be the best "closer" in the NBA, when it comes to games.  I think they play better than pretty much everyone in the last 3 minutes in close games.

Miami is exactly the opposite, so far, this season.   They're HORRIBLE closers in close games.  Sure, they can win by 10+.  But I'm not convinced they can win by 3.  And given Boston's defense, and how well they played Miami in the regular season, I expect a lot more 3 to 5 point games than I expect 10+ point games.

It'll be interesting.  I think the Celtics, ultimately, advance.  But Miami could easily surprise me by NOT playing like they have during the regular season.  I mean..given the crew they have, I expect so much more.  So I can't be surprised if they actually MEET those expectations.  On the flip side though, they haven't done it so far.

I'd argue the Cavs supporting cast was worse last year.

I'd also argue that the Knicks supporting cast, behind Amare and 'Melo was worse THIS year (which, I suppose, also qualifes the C's sweep)...especially after Chauncy went down.

And finally I'd argue that Orlando's supporting cast, behind Howard, might be worse than the Heats...but it's close.

Should also be noted that, after all of the talk of the Perk trade, JO played at a level in which Perk was not the least bit missed.
Don't get me wrong, sure wouldn't mind having Perk in the trenches as well, but JO is making his presence known thus far.

I also love how the "experts" dismiss the fact that the C's swept an inferior opponent in NY, when some of them predicted 6-7 game series, and some even had NY winning.
Beating any team on the road is impressive, especially in the playoffs. C's did it twice, in about as hostile environment as they will face.


Hoping my Spurs can rebound, and at least make it a series, but Memphis is looking tough.

I meant supporting cast for a supposed title contender, I dont think anyone thought the Knicks or Magic were going to make a serious push for a title.  I think you might be right with the Cavs supporting cast last year, they were supposedly a title contender and they were pretty bad. 

I hope the Heat just put the 6ers out of their misery tomorrow so we can get on with the matchup I'm waiting for: Boston Vs. Miami... hopefully the sweep will get Shaq back in game shape.  Agree 100% that Boston are outstanding in close games & the Heat are awful... but I think they will bring out the best of each other.

Anyways, I'm sure the Lakers can pull together and win their series, but - if Paul can work his magic twice more and knock them off, and the Spurs on the brink of elimination, are the Thunder now the favourites to win the West?  I think they can pull it off regardless.

Yeah but Jermaine played at a high level against Jared Jeffries........

Miami can't be graded the same way as far as supporting cast, cause most teams with a good supporting cast, don't have 2 of the top 3 and 3 of the top 20 players. so its harder putting that together plus throw in Udonis Haslem being injured. if he is healthy, i'd make them the favorites for sure. I think Wade will be the big thorn in boston's side. KG will eat Bosh alive, pierce has done well against Lebron but i can't see Allen guarding Wade.. Rondo may have some luck but I don't know.. throw in Wade gets the baby touch foul calls..........

I'
Id rank Lebron 1, Kobe 2, Wade 3

Bosh 15-20 range

Whereas in Boston, they don't have anyone in the top 10 but they have 3 *Pierce,KG,Rondo in the 10-20 range plus Allen probably in the 25-30 range and their bench with Big Baby,jeff Green,Delonte,Jermaine or Shaq whichever are all capable players.


Its funny, cause people talk about Miami's big men but yet don't realize that Dirk played with Damp for the past 5-6 years.

http://youtu.be/QUL2chHSALU

Spurs aint dead yet! What a game!!

Heat are lookin mighty beatable after watching them struggle in a closeout game on their home floor.
Chalmers bailed them out big time, and they can pretty much bank on never getting a performance out of him like that again.

Spoelstra wrote up some head scratching plays at the end too. Hope my C's are ready, should be a great battle.

I think the Spurs won that series last night when they hit that buzzer beater.  I'm also sticking with Celtics in 6.

I hope you're right!
What a comeback that would be. Grizz looks real tough though. Randolph has been a beast.

Just tried buying game 6 tickets in Boston, but sold out instantly.

Admittedly, I haven't seen him play THAT much, but from what I've seen of Kevin Durant.  I'm not sure HE'S not the best player in the NBA.  Or at least, well on his way.

Absolutely. If I'm starting a team today and have one pick, Durant is it.
Wade second.

My Mavs exercised some big demons last night!

Can we beat LA? I don't know. gonna take alot of stuff going right. I bet anyone here, Statistically Dirk has a better series than Kobe.

Chandler must stay out of foul trouble, Peja needs to look like Sacramento Peja... we'll see.


Lebron is better than Durant right now. Durant scores and thats about it. he is a high volume shooter, not a great defender or rebounder or passer.

Lebron is distinguished at all phases of the game on both ends of the court.   Durant and Kobe/Wade at this stage is debatable though.  of course my top 5 is: 1.lebron 2.Kobe 3.Wade 4.Durant 5.Dirk

next 5: 6.Dwight Howard 7.healthy Chris Paul 8.Derrick Rose 9.Carmelo Anthony 10.  Deron Williams

next 5. 11.Paul Pierce 12.Kevin Garnett 13.Russell Westbrook 14.Amare Stoudemire 15.Manu Ginobli

next 5 16.Pau Gasol 17.Chris Bosh 18.Blake Grifin 19.Lamarcus Aldridge 20. Zach Randolph

next 5: 21.Steve Nash 22.Joe Johnson 23.Monta ellis 24.Danny Granger 25.Rajon Rondo

any oversights? I did this off the top of my head so u could probably flip flop here in there some spots.

If I can start a team with player today, but in their prime? I'm starting with KG.
He is the ultimate team player, and is not going to let his teammates get away with giving anything less than 100%.
You know you've got a defensive minded team with him on board.

Actually, gotta take that back, he's #2 behind the big fundamental, for the same reasons, except Duncan was better in his prime.

Durant is still young, and has already proven he can score easier than anyone in the league. I think he may shoot a little too much, but he's not the slouch Melo is on D. He's better than Melo is almost every aspect of the game, and incredibly hasn't reached his full potential. He's already a freak, and is going to continue to get better.

Lebron is great, but he just doesn't scare me in close games, and that is a big negative. He came into this league with the respect of Michael Jordan. He didn't have to earn a thing. He was getting superstar calls from the refs from day one. Calls that to this day, Paul Pierce still does not receive. That said, he is probably the best all around player, but I really look at him as a #2 because of his inability to hit the big shot, and to make the right decision in crunch time.

Kobe is a great player, who has had the luxury of playing on great teams.

Paul Pierce, easily the most underrated player in the NBA would be in the discussion for me. I know I probably sound like a homer, but the guy is an absolute freak. Good at all aspects of the game. He may not make it look pretty, but he does it all well. No one got to the rim better than him in his prime. Idiots would talk about him being soft, even though he has been closer to an ironman over his career. The guy was stabbed 13 times and played that season. He doesn't need to jack up 30 shots a game like Kobe to get his points, much more efficient player today. Has become a defensive stopper since KG arrived. He's slowing down opposing teams best players while being the C's go to scorer. Only Celtic who can create his own shot, but doesn't have to be the guy to take the last shot. How many times has he assisted Ray Ray for the win?

im being a fanatic but I'd still take Dirk. This guy, like Pierce will never be fully appreciated. U always hear how Dirk is soft,cant play D etc and that simply isn't true. When you have played your entire career with Shawn Bradley and Eric Dampier, it makes u look worse defensively cause you don't have someone backing u up. Pierce can play defense now cause he has KG and others getting his back if he gets beat, so he can play more aggressive. With Dirk, he carries Dallas, so sometimes he plays shit D cause he can't afford to get in foul trouble. What they won't tell u is how Dirk had a key block on Nick Batum last night that helped keep Dallas in the lead down the stretch and allowed them to stretch the lead.

U have to remember also, Dirk fell victim to Nellie Ball early in his career. He was on an offensive team that wasn't taught defense. so he developed it slower than he would've had he been on a different team etc.

Problem i do have wit hWade and Lebron is, their games are predicated on speed and athleticism. as they get older ,they are going to decline fast whereas Dirk can play at a high level for probably 5-6 more years cause he plays below the rim.

I use to take a beating on sports forums for my dislike of KG. So i def wouldn't take him. remember minnesota? KG is the perfect Robin. the perfect superstar do everything guy but he can't carry a team offensively. he needs that scoring guard to be batman and he be allowed to put up his 18-10 and play great D.

That's exactly why I'd start and build around him. I don't think it's that he can't, he simply doesn't want to. In fact I know he can score pretty much at will, because sometimes he's been called upon to do it. Overall though, he wants to keep the ball moving and get his teammates involved, because the more touches players get, the more focused they will be on both sides of the floor. He has understood that for a long time, which is impressive in this league. Their are seasoned veterans that still haven't figured this out. Nobody in the NBA is as intense as KG. You know you're gonna get everything he has day, in day out. He's the vocal leader on the team, who's gonna make the coach's life a lot easier.

I hear you on Dirk. He's never had a great supporting cast. Pierce was always a good defender, but it took KG coming to town to convince everyone they had to be fully committed. It's a beautiful thing to watch! I'm going to miss it when it's gone, which is probably too soon. Defense isn't real popular in the NBA, which in turn is probably why the NBA isn't half as popular as it could be.

Dirk has outplayed Kobe two straight.

he is making me look good

 I do remember 2006 though, so i am in no way celebrating just yet.

Well the C's Spurs Finals I was hoping for got shot to shit. C's and Lakers have some work to do.
At least if the C's and Lakers don't rebound, the West has size that could give the Heat trouble, should they make it that far.
Wade is a beast, but tough for me to root for him now that he plays with prima donna James..

very impressive so far.  I'm really pulling for Dallas to win the whole thing.  They deserve it.  Cuban is a great owner.

If my C's don't recover, I'm jumping on the Dallas bandwagon!

Ive had my heart broke a many years guys

so I fully wouldn't rule out beating LA and losing to memphis or some shit LOL!

Another W for Dallas.... maybe we are on the road to a 2006 finals rematch.......

Great win for the Celtics last night to get back into the series.  However, they are all sorts of banged up.  Rondo had what looked like a major injury last night, a dislocated left elbow.  He returned and played with basically one hand.  They thrived off the emotion and cruised to victory, but I'm not sure they can carry that over into game 4.  Shaq returned for 8 minutes and didn't get hurt.  That's a plus.

(http://oi55.tinypic.com/2e1hmrq.jpg)

The Lakers are down by 24 at half time so I guess it's safe to say:

Thank you, Dallas Mavericks!

Thankfully the Mavs guard JJ Barea is okay - but that was one of the biggest cheap shots ever by Andrew Bynum.

Didn't catch any of the game today, but apparently the Lakers just didn't show up at all?  I mean, seriously.  That's all you've got in an elimination game?  I didn't expect that from a championship team.  Though I will say, I never bought into them being the team to beat out West.  People kept tabbing them as that all season long, despite them never playing like the best team in the West.  They figured they could just flip the switch at any time.  Well, it never happened.

A lot of people have said the same thing about the Celtics, and I hope they don't suffer the same fate as the Lakers.  People have said that Miami can't get it done this year because they're not experienced enough in year one, and that the Bulls are too young.  Unfortunately the C's are extremely banged up right now, or at least it seems that way.  We'll see how they respond tomorrow, after a pretty dominant game 3 performance, especially from KG.  Been waiting for that.  He needs to dominate Chris Bosh, and he should.  Bosh is SO very overrated, yet he cancelled KG out the first two games.  Game 3 was a total mismatch though, the way it should be.

Congrats D on the Mavs moving on.  Not done yet, but a Dirk/Durant showdown just might be in order.

I cant put into words how proud i am right now. Dallas proving they are different and not the same mavs. Admit it, everyone on here rolled their eyes and laughed when i  said Dirk would outplay Kobe. Guess what? HE DID in all 4 games.

OKC may not get past memphis. They are in a fight.

Dallas have to reach NBA finals, I mean u can't sweep LA and then lose to Memphis or OKC.

Something bad is going on internally in LA. i personally think they are sick of Kobe's ego. notice when LA struggle how Kobe always places the blame on his team and never himself. I think shit wore thin.

Magic Johnson the hypocrite.

chastised Lakers for their cheap play but check out what he did to Isiah Thomas down 17 in 4th quarter back in 88


http://youtu.be/rbJjAejlef4

Not looking too good for the Celtics.  Rondo was obviously not as effective tonight.  Though I have to say, he wasn't all that effective even before D-Wade took him down and almost broke his arm.  And Kevin Garnett followed up his great performance in game 3 with an equally as awful performance tonight.  For all the crap I gave Bosh, he played great tonight, despite a slow start.

And Lebron played the best I've seen him play in a big game.  He played like the superstar he is, especially when it mattered most.

Well, the Heat are up 3-1... I think they say only 7 or 8 teams have come back from being down 3-1, with two home games left I think they've got it wrapped up.  Looks like that late push for playoff position has worked out.

Awesome game tonight in Memphis, Dallas must love watching these two play a full extra 15 minutes and locking in a sixth game.

Celts blew an opportunity to make this a series. Lebron tried to give it away down the stretch(falling down and letting the ball sail out of bounds, somehow losing control of the ball at the top of the key etc) , but C's didn't capitalize on them. Someone missed an assignment at the end of regulation, because that's not Pierce's shot.
Lebron showed up in OT and C's didn't. C's can't afford to have miserable games from both KG and Ray. PP didn't get much help.
West stepped up, but JO took a step back. Shaq didn't exactly make his presence known, though in his defense, it's pretty much automatic that LBJ and Wade are going to get a whistle 9 out of every 10 times they put the ball on the floor. He had two cheap fouls called right off the bat. Pretty good game overall. C's are in trouble, but series ain't over yet.

Mavs heat would be best final

worst would be Memphis Atlanta or even Chicago and memphis would be pretty terrible.

nevermind the sports nonsense.  He is calling the Lakers classless, he is a classless piece of shit in real life.  He went on the road and  cheated on his wife with countless amounts of women until brought HIV home.  Luckily his wife never caught it.  He is the last person on earth that should be talking about class.

Well that sucked. Hopefully C's can get healthy and add some pieces for another run next year. Should be an interesting offseason with Davis and Kristic likely gone. Hopefully they hold on to West. I'd like to see what Green can do after a training camp w/the team.

In the meantime, I'm a Chicago fan. Not going to be easy for them, but hopefully Deng can contribute consistently. For all the talk of Lebron, and he did hit some timely shots, but it was Wade that killed us.
C's had absolutely no answer for him. He is an absolute beast. Plus you add in the fact that if you breath on him or LBJ there is going to be a whistle, which certainly doesn't make things any easier. Chicago is going to have to find a way to slow him down, and Thibodeau is probably the best man for the job. Gotta finish business w/the pain in the ass Hawks first though.

In the West, I can go either way. Would like to see Dirk get a ring, but woudn't mind seeing Perk and Durant either.

C's looked tired.

I swear, Miami and the C's switched uniforms, each game, with about 6 min left.  The C's, who were probably the best close out team in the league this year, just couldn't close.  And Miami, who were AWFUL at closing out games this year, looked like world beaters.

And in the last 6 min of every game, the C's looked tired...even in the game they won, they looked like they were running on tired legs.

It's not going to get any easier next year...they've got to find some young legs to contribute, significantly (Oh, and try to keep their star PG from having to be superman after getting his arm ripped off).

First of all, congrats to the Mavs for beating the Lakers. I never expected Dallas to win, not to mention, in just 4 games.

Now, regarding the Lakers, it's obvious that something's happened internally. Gasol and Bryant seemed like they simply did not care.

Right now, the following is just a rumor, but I've seen a few sites reporting a bad vibe between Kobe and Pau since Gasol's recent break-up with his girlfriend. Now, some of you are probably wondering "what the fuck is he talking about"? Well, Seems like Kobe's wife, Vanessa, told Gasol's girlfriend (Sylvia) he was cheating on her. Gasol then confronted Kobe, both had "more than words" and haven't really to each other spoke since beginning of the postseason.

This could be just sensationalism, but something has gone wrong in that locker room and this could explain Pau's and Kobe's performance throughout the series against Dallas.

Here's a link for you http://articles.latimes.com/2011/may/09/sports/la-sp-plaschke-lakers-20110509/2

I know real life gets in the way of these things sometimes.  But, that seems like one big excuse to me if there ever was one.  I don't care how many extra marital affairs are going on.  It's the PLAYOFFS!  You can take out your discretions at a later date.

Exactly
two years ago, Dirk's fiancee got arrested for identity fraud/theft and she claimed to be pregnant with his child *Which she wasn't*

how did Dirk respond?? he averaged 35 and 12 against Denver.

Jesus...will you ever stop with your Dirk Nowitzky non-sense? Yeah, we get it. He's a great player and you believe he's the best ever, but enough of that already.

You always tend to compare very different situations that had nothing to do with one another just to prove your point.

First, we are talking about both players; kobe and Pau, who had a pretty bad series.

Second, Dirk's issue was totally different. He had to deal with something OUTSIDE his locker room, whereas Gasol and Bryant had to deal with something originated from within. It's so easy to say "Hey, this is the playoffs, man up, leave that shit off the court..." but none of us know how bad the situation was and how hard it could be to deal with.

Dirk's situation was WAYYYY worse than Pau's alleged situation.

They have denied it and Pau's girlfriend was at courtside.


Dirk was in love,engaged and thought a kid was on the way and his fiancee gets arrested at his home and turns out she wasn't who she said and lied to him the whole time.


Thats way worse.

Watching this postseason, Rose would have to be in the discussion as well. Kid is a freak.

I pick Durant cause he has an old school game that will be prolific late into his career. When Lebron,Wade and Rose start getting older ,their games will leave them quick. Durant will be able to be great for a longer period of time due to his style of play.

12 of 15, 24 of 24... Doesn't get much more on-point than that.

no doubt. one of the greatest games in NBA history

Who was lucky enough to see that Mavs/Thunder game last night? Wow! That was a great game. I can't believe Dallas came back from down 15 with 4 minutes to go then wins it in OT.

Dirk has def validated all my posts over the years.

remember when someone was arguing Melo being better than Dirk? LOL no one would dare do that now.

you're right, Dirk has killed all his demons so far this year...he brought it.  Congrats on the Finals D!

Let's see how he fares against D Wade in the Finals before we start sucking his dick!  They are rolling right now though, tons of poise in the 4th quarters.

Mavs fan for 11 years here. so im proud regardless.

As long as the Refs dont give Wade 20ft attempts a game like they did in 2006, we got a great chance.

Its so great. The guy who stuck with his franchise an didnt chase a ring vs the crybaby quitter who ran out on his home team to piggyback with Wade and Bosh.

Mavs MUST win this.

This is a different Mavs team then 06 ths team i think can win it all. Dirk has been just insane. He has been so clutch in these playoffs. The whole team is resilient they just don't give up. It should be a great finals Mavs/Heat barring a great comeback by the Bulls.

exactly, i am rooting so hard for the Mavericks here.  Lebron James is everything that is wrong with the NBA.  Even if he wins 5 titles in Miami it wont be as meaningful as one that Dirk wins in Dallas.  As a Utah Jazz fan I take more pride in Stockton and Malone taking less money to stay in Utah to try and finish a job, even though they didn't succeed, then I would if they pulled a Lebron in the prime of their careers and won a bunch of titles.   I hope Dirk succeeds where they didn't.

Not only is there a great chance Wade gets his 20 FT attempts, but Lebron could as well. Can't sneeze in the same arena as them or it's a foul unfortunately. Gotta keep em out of the paint.
I'm rooting for the Mavs. Hope they can keep the momentum going, because right now it doesn't look like they can be stopped.

If the Mavs have any weakness its what i consider the Knicks syndrome. Remember the great knick teams from the 90s? They never won even while Jordan was gone. They would get these huge leads and let the teams come all the way back and then the knicks would win against the lesser teams but against a great team like Houston lost. If the mavs are going to beat miami they have to stop letting teams come back and getting a lead before finally winning it. The heat are too good defensively for them to have to do that night in and night out. The Mavs must sure up their defense a bit and play great defense for an entire four quarters.

I dont think Miami are that great defensively against Dallas.

Their 2 best defenders are Lebron and wade but Dallas score different than other teams. Miami have nobody that can guard Dirk and Dallas don't have those big time scoring/driving guards that Lebron and Wade have shut down in the East playoffs.

so its gonna be interesting to see how they play Dirk.

If Im Dallas, i play a zone on Miami. Make Wade and LEbron shoot 3's.

Totally agree. They can't let them get in the paint and get easy baskets. Dirk has just been on fire. I don't know if anyone can stop him the way he's playing. He absolutely deserves all the talk he's been getting as far as being one of the all time great shooters.

Really?  I don't get this... Here's a guy who plays some of the best TEAM basketball in the sport and he's considered "everything that's wrong with the NBA."   No scandals, no rape cases, no divorces, no drunk driving... he will gladly pass the ball for the final shot if someone is open (ex. Donyell Marshall).  Really, the only thing he's done wrong was "The Decision", but who cares if you aren't a Cleveland fan?  He earned free agency, who is anyone to criticize where someone chooses to live and work.  Not to mention that the Cavs dropped from first to worst - the incentive was to stay and play alongside Mo Williams?

...... and come on, it's not like Wade was one of his rivals, I don't recall them ever meeting in a playoff series?  This isn't like Lebron joining the Celtics or whatever the other legends (i.e. MJ, Magic) were saying about him joining forces with "the guy to beat".  He sacrified more money from Cleveland for a lesser role in Miami - all 3 of them did actually.  The opposite of what everyone else in the league does, which is once the team gets success, they demand MORE attention, money, credit, fame, etc. (Marion and Amare in Phoenix are prime examples).  Furthermore, the consolidation of stars just made the playoffs that much better.  It made the regular season matter.  Honestly, we don't need 30 teams, each with a superstar and 14 shitty role players - teams like Miami, LA or Boston are way more exciting to watch (whether you love them or love to hate them). 

Lebron is far from what's "wrong with the NBA".  Dirk's title will only mean more because he choked the time before, not because he stayed with the same team.

Wow, I shouldn't have defended him... I should have just let that run of clutch plays speak for itself!

That run was impressive just like the mavs run in game 4. Should be a great finals two very evenly matched teams.

Anyone have any thoughts on Pippen's comments saying LeBron is better than Jordan? I think Pip needs to put down whatever he's smoking cause he's sounding like a moron Jordan is not only a better all around player but also has more heart and is a leader. We'll see when LeBron leads his team to 6 titles.

Lebron may be better all around skilled but has nowhere near the heart or will of Jordan. the intangibles of Jordan Lebron doesn't have


Jordan did dominate a pretty weak era of the NBA.

Jordan not only had more heart and will he was a great leader and motivator. He had the ability like Messier and Gretzky to make those around him better. Without Jordan does anyone really think those bulls teams win 6 titles? I don't; LeBron on the other hand feels the need to surround himself with a dream team to win it all.

The Finals started, Heat up 1:0 already. LeBron owned the Mavs, if they don't stop him it's gonna be hard.

Highlights of Lebron:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXGpi6omGfg


Edit:
Shaq just announced his retirement.

Mike Bibby? Mario Chalmers? Mike Miller? Joel Anthony? Zydrunas Ilgauskas?  Hardly a "dream team" outside of their three best players... Lebron is the ultimate example of making his teammates better.  Look what he did with those supporting lineups on the Cavs!  If you stick Lebron on the 90's Bulls in place of Jordan or any of Kobe's championship teams - 9 times out of 10 they still win the title.

He's not Jordan, no one will be Jordan... but he gets a lot of shit that he doesn't deserve, his talent is unbeleivable.

Just game 1. Miami should win game 1 at home.

Dallas won't play that bad again. their bench was terrible.

i hope so... and this is the only time i will be going for your mavs...  8)

See...I heard Scotty say it live and that's not what I got out of it.

He said Jordan IS the best scorer to ever play (no arguments there).  And that's not going to change.

Lebron COULD turn out to be the best player ever.  I can't argue with him there, either.  He COULD.  He's got a long way to go to get to Jordan, sure.  But he has the tools to do it.  He's a very good defensive player.  You can't argue with his offensive abilities.  He's a true floor general.  Basically, he's got everything Jordan had during his prime.

We won't know, one way or the other, until Lebron's MUCH further into his career.  But it's POSSIBLE he could eclipse Jordan.  POSSIBLE.

Whoa, Whoa, Whoa...hold on a second.

Look back at who was on those Jordan led Bulls.  Scottie Pippen?  Tony Kukoc? John Paxton? Dennis Rodman? Horace Grant?  He might not have had a "big 3" the entire time, but his supporting cast was not chopped liver.  It was not "Jordan and a bunch of scrubs".  In fact, I'd say top to bottom those Bulls teams had a better overall roster than the Heat do, today.

Sorry D, I think this series is over. I know it sounds crazy after 1 game but it seems like the Big 3 can pretty much do what they want.

They better not or they're dying fast and quiet. They did exactly what i've said they've been doing. Get a decent lead then let the other team come back and take the lead. Then try and come back and win it. They were able to do it against lesser teams but they aren't gonna do it against the Heat. They are too good defensively. The Mavs have to play better defense and hold on to these leads, take better shots, stop not taking easy shots, i mean you Marion. Dirk was all over him for that shit in game one. They just have to play smarter better basketball like i know they can.

I'm not saying they were, those were some very very good players but without Jordan i still am not sure they win it all.

You have a truly warped sense of basketball and competitive sports in general.  So because Lebron has no scandals, rape cases, divorces that is supposed to be an accomplishment?  That's not an accomplishment!! Thats the way you are supposed to live your life!! Lebron didn't sacrifice nearly as much money as you think he did, there is no income tax in Florida.  The consolidation of stars is fucking terrible for the NBA.  If you can't beat em, join em?  That's a good competitive mentality?  Thats good for the game of basketball?  A bunch of stars join one team and automatically win the title?  How is that good?

I love the argument that Lebron earned the right to play wherever he wants and that if we have a problem with that something is wrong with us.  I have no problem with Lebron earning the right of free agency.  That is such a distraction when people use that argument.  HERE is the problem.

LEBRON HAS NO BALLS.  He couldn't get it done in Cleveland, so instead of sticking to his word and trying to win a championship and finish a job he started, he RAN. That is my problem with him.  He is not a competitor.  Anyone can gang up with their friends on one team and win a championship.    I'm supposed to be impressed if the Heat win this title? 

I love the argument that Jordan had great teams too, of course he did, all championship teams are great.  But they were built the proper way, through the draft, and some free agency.  They didn't have stars texting each other to join forces, they used to be rivals who wanted to beat the competition, not join it.

I can understand why Lebron did it but it doesn't make him any less of a bitch for doing it.

WOWWWWW

what an out of this world comeback

i can't believe it

I'm still in shock. They can't continue to do this though. They aren't going to comeback like that every time.

I have no problem with Lebron up and leaving Cleveland to play with 2 other All Stars in Miami.  What I have a problem with, was how he handled the whole situation.  "The Decision" was a complete joke.  It couldn't have unfolded any worse.  I just hope Dallas can take the title this time around.  It seems obvious to me that this Miami squad will win multiple championships.  They've improved so much throughout this season.  Lebron has played his ass off in the playoffs, he's really impressed me.  So I've resigned to the fact that they're not going to "fail" in Miami.  I just don't want them to win THIS year.  Go Mavs!

Dirk hitting the game winner with his injured left hand...inspirational.  THAT is what competitive sports is all about.

But that's definitely true of this Heat team.  I don't think they're in the finals without Lebron.  Now...the question is...can they win it all.

One quick point on an earlier statement that I didn't quote:

I don't think the point was that because Lebron has been "clean", it's an accomplishment.  I think the point the earlier poster was making was that...he's "clean" so it's tough to point at him and say he's all that's wrong with the NBA.

On to my point:

The later Jordan teams had plenty of "former rivals" (Rodman, for example) on them.

If you take issue with the Heat, then do you take issue with teams like the 80's Lakers?  Or the current crop of the Boston Celtics (because, although Allen and KG were gotten through trades....it WAS a similar situation). Or a whole host of other teams who got 3 good players together at the same time, by using free agency (or potential free agent based trades)?  The biggest difference is that CLEVELAND decided to hold Lebron during the final year of his contract and not deal him.

If you don't take issue with those teams...then I'm guessing the issue is that this was, at least in part, coordinated by the players...rather than the teams front office.  For me, that's quibbling.  SOMEONE puts together these teams. GM, owner, and in the Heat's case, some of the players.  I don't see a good reason to differentiate.

LeBron was a free agent.  I'm with everyone who thinks he handled it incredibly poorly, from start to finish.  "The Decision" had to be the stupidest fucking thing he could have done.  We're 100% in agreement on that.

But as for the rest....I can't fault him.  He earned free agency.  He earned the right to take what he considered to be the best deal, and he negotiated that deal for himself.  Yes, part of that negotiation was to get Bosch to head with him to Miami.  Wade was already there (just like, on many teams, he would have walked into an existing star already on the team).  I just don't have a problem with any of that.  People say he "owed" Cleveland.  Baloney.  He owes it to whatever legacy/career he puts together to try to win rings.  Because without rings, he's never going to be measured against the "immortals".  Cleveland wasn't going to put together a team, around him, that could win rings.  The owner had said as much, and the proof was in the pudding.  I have no problem with Lebron doing what the system allows, and is set up to allow, players to do.

Today is not the 80's NBA.  It's not 80's MLB or 80's NHL, either.  "Rivalries" are not, amongst the players, what they were back then.  I'll agree with that, too.  But that's not the players fault.  I'm not sure it's anyone's fault.  Players have morphed more into a "fraternity"....between the lines they're competitors, outside the lines they're all friends.  There isn't the kind of personal animosity or rivalry that there used to be.  It's hard for me to hold Lebron to that standard when the standard sort of disappeared during the 90's.

On that, we agree.  I'm not a Heat fan, by any stretch.  And I think the WAY Lebron left Cleveland was horrid.

I see both of your sides of it and I don't completely disagree.  My real gripe is about Lebron James competitiveness, and you're right its not just him, it is the direction the whole NBA and most pro sports has gone.  I miss the rivalries, I hate when a team gets knocked out of the playoffs and they are sitting around laughing and hugging with the team that just beat them.  I respect a player that sticks with one team for most of their career.  I also did take issue with the Boston Celtics title, as impressive as it was, deep down how can Kevin Garnett be as satisfied with that title as he would have if he finally brought one to Minnesota?  I know I wouldn't be.

John Stockton and Karl Malone routinely turned down more money from major market teams to try and finish a job in Utah.  People kiss Lebrons ass for allegedly turning down money, but with his endorsements and no state income tax in Florida is he even going to feel any of that money he "gave up"?  Of course not.  Stockton didn't have any of the type of endorsements Lebron had but he turned down numerous big offers to take way less money for the Jazz, in exchange for ice time for his kids hockey team at the Jazz arena.  I miss players like that.

It's a slippery slope, you had the big 3 do what they did in Miami last summer, now this year you had Carmelo Anthony just decide hes not playing for the Nuggets anymore and wants to play for the Knicks so the Nuggets are forced to make a deal.  It's lunacy.  It is the exact reason why the NBA needs a real salary cap, and a franchise tag.


I just don't feel like the current NBA stucture is good for competition.  How is it?  When 3 very good players decide they are going to gang up and they win a title automatically.  How can any player with any type of pride or self worth feel proud of that?  Lebron can win 6 titles in Miami and it still wont impress me as much as if Dirk gets 1 this year.  Anybody can just join forces with other great players and win titles, where is the accomplishment?  I will take Stockton and Malone leading the Jazz to the Finals in 97 and 98 and shaking the hell out of the champs of the world and falling short over any amount of titles Lebron wins.  That's just me though, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

 Yes Malone went to the Lakers, but he was 40, Stockton retired and the Jazz wanted to go young and rebuild, that was a mutual parting of the ways.  He gave them 18 years, can't ask for more than that.

Lebron and KG's situations were totally different, though.
The most obvious difference being that's KG's was via trade, which he had originally resisted, and doesn't have total control like Lebron did. Sure he could have put up a fight, but he had given 14 years or whatever it was, and if a team is trying to get rid of you, why would you fight them to stay? Minnesota was looking to get something for KG while he still had value. Looking back, the trade was pretty lopsided, but both sides did benefit.

Lebron gave Cleveland no indication he was leaving, and essentially crippled the organization that gave him his start, and hometown.
I don't have a problem with him leaving, though it really can't be denied he took the easy way out, and couldn't have handled it any worse. I give him a pass, because as good as he is at basketball, it's pretty clear there isn't much going on upstairs.

Plus C's had to endure years of futility to build up young talent through the draft and then trade away their future in order to acquire Allen and KG. It's a gamble I'd pull the trigger on 1,000 times over, but still a gamble.

Lebron saw an opportunity to win now, going to a team where he isn't necessarily even the best player on the team. It's not all on his shoulders now if he wins or loses anymore. He took the easy way out, no doubt about that.

NBA could be in trouble if the trend continues. Melo forcing his way to NY. Chris Paul reportedly was trying to do the same.
There were rumors Howard would join LA or Boston when his contract is up, though at least he intends to play it out.
Pretty soon it could be 4 teams worth watching.

One thing I love about this current Boston squad, is that they do seem old school in the way they legitimately hate their competition.

I totally agree.  I didn't mean to make it sound like KG's situation was similar other than it was all-stars ganging up together.  The Celtics did it the right way, and Garnett doesnt owe Minnesota anything.  I was saying from a competitive point of view, a Minnesota title would have been much more fulfilling, at least if I were him.  But that's me.

I'm glad he did it here, and helped end our misery, especially after that '07 season haha, but yeah I agree, getting Minny over the hump would have been incredible. Then he probably would have retired with the team he started with, which is a rarity these days..

Its called having the heart of a champion and being a leader. Something LeBron isn't. They looked lost the last 6 minutes of the game. If LeBron was a real leader he would have known to ride the hot shooter. In this case Wade. He was hot all game in the end LeBron didn't give him the ball. On the other side at the end Dallas Nowitzki repeatedly got it to Terry and Marion who were hot and of course Dirk himself got the biggest shots.

I will always respect Dirk more title or not for sticking with Dallas and trying to finish what he started.


Lakers are WAYYYYYYYY different. Magic got drafted to LA. big difference. Magic also won a title scoring 42pts grabbing double digit rebounds playing CENTER when Kareem was injured.


The comparison would be bird going to LA and playing with Magic.

Lebron and Wade are 2 of the 3 best in the league right now. Lebron could've left and went to Chicago.. Rose wasn't the MVP Rose yet so Lebronwould've been the undisputed leader of that team and got the lion's share of the credit

Instead he looks like a coward.


Its his right.. If he wins titles, great.. but he will never get the same credit or have the same legacy as if he had done it another way. throw in Lebron quitting against Boston last year.

My definitive Dirk article: Excuse some grammar/punctuation errors.. too much texting and twitter since school


http://simplysports.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=opinion&action=display&thread=54

Unfortunately, that's the way the NBA has been for a long time now.  I heard a stat not long ago about the number of franchises to win titles in the major sports. 

Since 1980, there have been 8 different NBA champions (Lakers, Celtics, Sixers, Pistons, Bulls, Rockets, Spurs, Heat). 

The NFL has had 15 different Super Bowl champs during the same time frame (Steelers, Raiders, Niners, Redskins, Bears, Giants, Cowboys, Packers, Broncos, Rams, Ravens, Patriots, Buccaneers, Colts, Saints). 

MLB has had 19 different World Series champs (Phillies, Cardinals, Dodgers, Orioles, Tigers, Royals, Mets, Twins, A's, Reds, Blue Jays, Braves, Yankees, Marlins, Diamondbacks, Angels, Red Sox, White Sox, Giants).

NHL has had 14 different Stanley Cup champs (Islanders, Oilers, Canadiens, Flames, Penguins, Rangers, Devils, Avalanche, Red Wings, Stars, Lightning, Hurricanes, Ducks, Blackhawks).

So that points out how uneven the competitive balance has been in the NBA for some time.  It's nothing new really.  Players are just getting more involved in the process now and choosing where to go, but it's never been an even playing field.  The rich continue to get richer.  People bitch all the time about the Yankees (and Red Sox to a lesser extent) buying championships.  But it's clear that you have a much better chance at competing in baseball than you do in the NBA.  How else can you explain the Marlins winning 2 World Series titles amongst a bunch of losing seasons in comparison to the Clippers annual trip to the draft lottery?

yeah the more players you have to rely on the more even the playing field.  Football  is very competitive because you are relying on 50 something guys, basketball its really all about a handful of players you have.  So if you get a few great players you can win a title immediately,(Celtics, soon to be Heat possibly)  It is also best of 7, football if you have an off day you are screwed.  In the NBA a great team is going to have to have 4 off days, that never happens.  The best team always wins the title in the NBA.

True, in basketball you only really need a few GREAT players and you're all set.  So if you luck out in the draft, free agency, or via trades, you should be a contender for years to come.  It just shows you though, how hard it is to build a winner.  Think of the perennial lottery teams who never rise to the top. 

I'm a bit surprised by the highest number of different champions being in baseball though.  With no salary cap, you'd think the large market teams would own a majority of the championships.  Not so though.  True, they're pretty much guaranteed to contend each season, but winning it all is far from certain.  And as you said, with the Super Bowl being just one game, anything can happen.  And I know that all too well, with the 2007 Patriots.  :nervous:  :'(  :rant:

And D-wade was drafted by the Heat.

But Kareem wasn't drafted by the Lakers. Neither was Byron Scott.

And Worthy was drafted by the Lakers...but only after they traded the farm (and there was some shadiness to that deal) to get the first pick.


In the league?  They're 2 of the best..but not 2 of the best 3.  Kobe, Lebron, and Rose would be the top 3, IMHO.  Wade would be 5, maybe 6 on that list.  Elite player, to be sure.  And made even better by having Lebron on the court with him.

I get the magic/bird comparison...but it's a drastic one for the purpose of hyperbole.  They chose to stay with their respective teams (hell, they made a RULE to keep Bird with Boston).  There's TONS of players who have (with the exception of the "how"...with the players largely coordinating it)  moved on to create a powerhouse team.

You can project on Lebron all you want, but the fact is: He simply became a FA and chose the team he thought could best get him what he wanted.  And it wasn't money.  It's what pretty much every FA does.  The thing is:  The NBA doesn't end up with a ton of high profile, big name  FA.  Teams tend to trade them, and they sign extensions with their new team as part of that trade. Cleveland chose not to do that (and yes, Lebron may have been part of that decision).

The WAY Lebron did it was awful, I agree.  The whole "The Decision" thing was the worst thought out PR move in history...well, maybe second behind "New Coke".


From the fans?  Maybe.

But history has a fickle memory.  If he rattles off 5 or 6 titles with a few MVPs (league and Finals...though he's probably not going to get the Finals MVP this year)....history is going to give him just as much credit as it will get Kobe, Jordan, Bird, Shaq, Magic...etc.  In 20 years, this won't even be remembered.

I would take Wade over Kobe in a heartbeat today. I think Wade has always been underrated, and maybe now more than ever. If the Heat win the title this year, Wade will be Finals MVP, not Lebron. Lebron is a freak of a player, but Wade doesn't disappear in big games. He has already won a ring with a much less talented Heat roster.

Lebron had the ball in his hands the majority of the 4th quarter in game 2, hence the monumental collapse. He tried to run out the clock, and then hoist up fade away 3 pointers with the shot clock winding down. Wade had the hot hand, 36 points already with 7 minutes remaining. Wade is a smarter player, a much better closer. Lebron has to realize this and either get him the ball, or attack the rim. He has the tools, but not sure he has the smarts/instincts to be the leagues best.

yeah Lebron nearly cost them the game last night too, stupid turnovers and missed a big shot with 5 seconds left that would have clinched it.  Yes we are all nitpicking with Lebron now, but he brought it on himself.

Yes I totally understand that Lebron went "by the book" and was entitled to switch teams etc... But there are some unwritten rules about integrity and competitiveness and he pissed all over those, as many other players do today.

MUCH less talented Heat team?  I don't know about that.  Less, for sure..but Shaq was still pretty dominant and Mourning was pretty good in those NBA playoffs.  People forget that Antoine Walker was a star with the Celtics...though he had some problems early with the Heat.  By the end of the season though....he was playing damn good ball. Not that bad a roster.


I agree...Lebron has issues closing.  We've seen it this series, again.

I think both '06 and this years Heat teams were flawed, but I would say '06 was less talented because although they had Shaq, he wasn't LA Shaq. I was pretty pissed off when we traded Antoine away, and he did contribute to the Heat, but overall I don't think that Heat team had any business even being in the Finals. Take Wade off of that team and they probably don't sniff the playoffs. That was one of the most dominant postseason performances I've ever seen. I went out and bought the damn DVD of my teams rival!

I think Lebron needs Wade much more than Wade needs him, for reasons I've stated. Lebron has all the tools, but isn't a smart basketball player, and there's no reason to think that is going to change. He's an NBA veteran at this point, and you can't cure stupid. It's tough to call shots stupid when they go in, but he had some real bad possessions against the C's. They turned out to be daggers, but not high percentage shots, especially for him. (nitpicking I know, but just to the point of his basketball IQ) I will give him credit, at least he realized he needed Wade.

You know what....if the rules are unwritten then:

1) There's a reason they're unwritten.

2) They're not really rules.

I agree....the 2006 team was less talented.  It was the added emphasis I took issue with. That 06 heat team was pretty good.  And while they didn't have LA Shaq, he was still playing elite level ball. (Speaking of Shaq...didn't he leave Orlando high and dry to go play with Malone and Kobe?).  They weren't chopped liver.


I agree, to a point.  Lebron needs a closer, and a guy who can make good decisions with the ball.  He needs a guy who can take some of the focus off him.  There's only a couple places Lebron could've gone to get that: Chicago and Miami.  And Lebron needed that MORE than Wade needed Lebron (specifically).

But Wade, if he wanted another title, needed someone LIKE Lebron, too.  Wade isn't getting any younger.  He needed at least another elite level guy on his team if he wanted to win titles.  Bosch MIGHT have been enough....but that's questionable.  Lebron sealed it.

Agreed.

I don't think Lebron going to Miami was wrong by the way, I'm just in the camp that's not going to be as impressed as if he had done it with the Cavs.
It would have been pretty damn impressive if he had taken that team the distance. Now, playing alongside one of the best players in the league, there is really no excuse not to win. Unfortunately, so far it doesn't look like it's going to be an issue..

What about a having a sense of self pride?  It seems like you are fine with "oh he went along with the rules so thats good enough for me."  That doesn't work for me.  It was a bitch move, we all know that, and so does he.  Just because it was legal doesn't mean it was right.  I am saying that I would not be satisfied with winning a championship like this.  If he is that's great, but to me it would not be enough.  I'm old school, I believe in hard work, not taking short cuts.  I would have rather played 20 years and not gotten it done in Cleveland but gave it all my heart and effort than go to Miami and watch Dwayne Wade win a title for me(which is what he has been doing in the finals.)

I agree it would've been sweeter for Lebron to stay in Cleveland and win a championship being THE guy in his hometown, rather than playing second fiddle to a guy who's already won one.  But in the end, it's all about championships.  So however you can win them, then so be it.  The one thing you could say is that usually you take the easy road further down the road in your career.  Lebron chose to make that move much earlier and has put himself in line to win a handful of championships or more.  People probably would've respected the move a lot more if he did it 5 years from now.

Again, I hate Lebron for how he handled himself through the whole process, but I can't blame him for going to the Heat.  I think the Cavs were clearly the worst option he had.  The Heat and Bulls were by far the best.

I dont respect people who take shortcuts. that is what Lebron did.

U can say how magic had Kareem etc but he had to play a guy in bird with an equal team.

Lebron fixed the game pretty much and started a terrible trend that will ruin the league.

Again, the magic/bird comparisons are hyberbole.

There have been MANY dominant teams in the NBA, who didn't have to play "an equal team" during their run.  The Shaq/Kobe Lakers, for example.

And there is at least ONE "superpower" team forming in NY (they have 2 pieces...I suspect we'll see a 3rd whenever the NBA actually gets started again, though with the departure of Walsh I'm a bit less sure of it).

There's likely another forming in Chicago (because they really only need one more piece, too).

You can't honestly look back at this season for the Heat and say it's been "easy".

What about putting your ego aside in the interests of winning a championship?  What about forgoing max money in the interests of playing on a better team with a chance to win?  How about being unselfish?

These are all things I see people complain about when it comes to superstars in sports...."They're just in it for the paycheck and will go to whoever pays them most" etc.

Lebron pretty much did exactly what many fans complain superstars DON'T do.  The only thing he DIDN'T do was confine himself to Cleveland for 20 years.  I can't fault him for that.


I think, in any profession, you function within the system and abide by the rules as presented to you.  Within those confines, you try to do the best you can and be the best at what you do.


Actually....that's not true.  Because it's was legal DOES make it right.

It might not be popular.  It might not make everyone happy.  That's very different.  But the fact is:  The NBA can't stop player "collusion".  Doing so would actually be illegal, based on US labor laws.


I think it's very easy to say that...when you're a fan, and not the guy playing.  Ask John Stockton and Dan Marino how THEY feel about it. I also don't think you can look at this team and say they're not working hard...because these guys are still busting their humps out there.  I think calling it a "short cut" is sort of a cop out.  It's not.  Not really.  You don't like it....which, as a fan, is fine.  But other than the emotional response...there's not really any REASON behind not liking it.  No rule was broken.  Lebron didn't do anything all that out of the ordinary (other than the WAY he/they did it). 

The BIGGEST difference in all this is that Cleveland held on to the very end, instead of working out a trade.  They actually let him hit FA.  You can't, honestly, tell me you thought that one of the biggest names and best players in the game was going to stay in the Cleveland market.  No way.  Lebron might not be the smartest ball player you've ever seen, but he's an AWFULLY smart business man (or else has awfully smart business people advising him).  Sure, "The Decision" harmed his brand...but not much else in his career has.

That is where we differ, I feel that he didn't put his ego aside by going to Miami.  He did the opposite.  His ego couldn't take failure after failure every year on his shoulders in Miami, so he took the easy way out and is letting Dwayne Wade win the title for him.  You talk about being unselfish, I can't think of a more selfish move than what he pulled on Cleveland last summer.  You said yourself, he is going to team with a better chance to win, that is taking the easy way out.  He has better odds at winning with a team with superstars on it, why are we supposed to be impressed if he does what he supposed to do, which is win a title with a team that is clearly supposed to win the title?  Big deal.

You take comfort in law=right.  That is a whole other discussion all together.  There are many laws that I don't feel are "right."  Just because it is legal does not mean it is right.  I don't allow others to make up my moral code.

Also, you are really applauding this guy for "forgoing max money?"  The dude had a 90 million dollar contract from Nike when he was 18 before he even dribbled a basketball in the NBA.  As I mentioned earlier, John Stockton turned down numerous big money offers from major market teams like the Lakers because he was grateful to the Jazz for drafting him and wanted to see a job to the end.  He didn't have any of those endorsements.  He took less money to stay in a small market and as compensation he got guaranteed ice time at the Delta Center for his sons hockey team.  Class  Thats just it, these players today are so entitled it makes me sick.  They are not grateful to an organization for drafting them and giving them millions of dollars, they expect it.

You said ask John Stockton what he would say about it.  When he retired Stockton said "All you can do is prepare your best and lay it all out there, Im sure there are a lot of people who won championships who didn't have to work very hard at it, we worked very hard and haven't done it, yet I feel a lot of reward out of the effort."

From that statement, do you think John Stockton would be more proud if he won 3 titles with Jordan, Pippen and the Bulls, or coming up short busting his ass like he did with the Jazz.  Champions are not measured in awards or rings, they are measured in heart and loyalty, something Lebron has neither of.  Once again that is my view, I am a hard worker and have self respect, I can't imagine anyone with the same attributes thinking what Lebron James did was ok or good for competition.

Something stinky went down in Cleveland last year with Lebron, his teamates, and that organization. It hasn't really been talked about. Maybe it had something to do with his mother? Anyways, something pissed him off and he wanted out of there. I think that's why he quit in the Boston series. He was saying "See what happens to this team when I lay down". I'm not defending any of this but I think there's reasons besides just saying "He's selfish".

I felt bad for Cleveland until that owner said a bunch of stupid things. There's a reason some organizations succeed and some always seemed mired in mediocrity and it usually starts at the top.

Also, I would think Lebron has to realize that he, Wade, and Bosh winning some titles together isn't going to impress the hell out of anyone. I think he just doesn't want to lose. Bruises the ego. And let's not pretend these guys don't have egos. Comparing everyone to John Stockton is setting the personality bar a little high.

Damn Bodhi I've been battling u over Slash and other things but I agree 100 percent with u on this.

This is the same as if BIrd joined Magic or Jordan joined Ewing. the number 1-2 players in the NBA playing together.

haha we agree more than we disagree on things.  And don't forget, I don't hate Slash, I am a huge fan, thats why I've been so pissed at what he's doing.

But fuck this Lebron guy....

yes fuck Lebron...and another nice win for the Mavs tonight



Coop

I don't see it as the same.  Like I said before, Wade & Lebron weren't rivals... they were never going to be rivals... they never even played a playoff series against each other.  This is not the same as Lebron teaming up with someone like Kobe or the Celtics who have bounced him from the playoffs for years.  These guys are playing as a team and making a sacrifice in their role as alpha dogs on their respective teams (which, BTW, the stat quo would be Miami barely making the playoffs and getting booted in the first round every year and Lebron winning 60+ games in the regular season with scrubs and losing in the conference finals).

These guys can't win... if they lost in the first round you guys would be saying "Fuck those guys, see?  You can't just toss talent together and take a shortcut to a title.  Basketball is a team sport.".... but since they are in the Finals everyone is saying "Fuck those guys, they took the easy way out".

In a league filled with guys bitching about not getting enough minutes and being overpaid to be "the man" on their teams, Lebron basically sacrificed the next 5 or 6 MVP awards and tons of positive media attention for a chance to win.  I don't look down on him for it......... I do look down on his performance in the 4th quarter of Game 4 though.....

In the 4 games combined, Dirk has scored 44 points in the 4th quarter. Lebron has scored 9.

I was going to reply to Bodhi...but you said exactly what I would have in your reply to D.

So rather than just repeating 90% of what you just said......I'll go with: I agree.

Lebron takes shit because he's Lebron.  He didn't leave Cleveland "the right way", and I get that people don't like it.  I DON'T like it.

But there is a difference between "I don't like it" and "He did something wrong".

I don't like cooked spinach.  I'm not going to sit here and try to justify it....because it's just the way I feel.  I get that some people don't like Lebron, and I'll be the first to say that the WAY he left, and the WAY he joined Miami rubbed me the wrong way.  Hell, I don't LIKE him all that much (which I bet will surprise a number of people in this thread).

But the point in all this is:  He's getting shit because he's Lebron.  You can make a pretty good case that, in an era when people bitch about people selling out and refusing to share the spotlight (*cough* Kobe *cough*), that Lebron did exactly what many sports fans wish superstars would do: Put winning above money, and put team above self.  Yes, there are people making counterarguments...BUT THATS THE POINT.  They don't like Lebron, so they kill him over every little thing.

Look, I'm no Lebron fan.  I'm a freaking Celtics fan, for God's sake....and I knew the guy was never coming to Boston.  I'm not rooting for Miami in this series...in fact I haven't found myself able to root for either team.  I'm just sort of watching because, either way, you know there's gonna be a "train wreck" effect from the outcome.  Having said all that...I can't kill a guy for doing what he's allowed to do, within the system that's set up.  I just can't.  I can't point to him and say "He's all that's wrong with the NBA"..there's just nothing there to support that argument.  Or, rather, there's too much evidence to the contrary.  He's not perfect. He's not a paragon. He's not even Jordan in his heyday (and he might never be.....Jordan would NEVER have had the game Lebron had last night).  He's a guy playing basketball at a VERY high level.  That's it.

This isn't the first superpower team....not in the NBA, not in sports.  Heck, it's not even the first time players have gotten together and decided to team up (check out the '83 Reds, for example...who ended up winning a World Series).  It happens.  People might not like it...and I get that...but it does.  And there really isn't any way to change it.

Couple other things:
Stockton would trade his left nut for an NBA title.  Marino would trade both of 'em.  Not having titles has effected both of their legacies.

Lebron's performance last night was, truly, pathetic.  I hear, though, there is good reason for it:  Space Jam3D.  The Mon-STARS stole his Mojo.

One quick comment..since Easy E said most of what I would:

If you think everyone, even those with similar work ethic and self respect, are going to think EXACTLY like you...you are going to be woefully disappointed in people your entire life.  And if they really did, you'd be VERY bored.

Ditto if you think everyone is going to abide by your personal code of morality. 

I'm practical enough to know better than that.  That's why I hold people up to the standard of rules and law, rather than an uncommunicated (and in most cases unknown to the person it would be applied to), somewhat undefined personal standard of "right and wrong".  Someone, somewhere, thinks every event going on at every moment of every day is "wrong".

I agree with what you are saying.  That is why I have a problem with what Lebron James.  I don't expect the whole world to.  Although I am a far from alone in this, millions feel the same way.  His actions last summer have opened up the door for this type of criticism. 

And yes, I AM woefully disappointed with people on a daily basis.  :hihi:

Hell of game by James last night, Jordanesque performance for sure.  By that I mean present day 48 year old  Michael Jordan.

Whew, that was a bad night. By the 4th quarter he wasn't even looking to shoot. Wasn't even looking at the basket. It was all "Where's D-Wade?"

Don't insult MJ.  I have complete faith he could go out on that court, at 48, and score more than 8 points...even if he couldn't manage to put in the minutes Lebron did.  At the very LEAST he wouldn't be invisible like Lebron was last night.

I'm telling you: Mon-Stars were in the house.

Wasn't looking to shoot?  The guy was running away and hiding in a corner on offense (and no, I'm not exaggerating.  Watch the tape).  In 1/2 their possessions, he didn't even touch the ball.  In about 4 of the other 10 possessions, he caught a pass and IMMEDIATELY got rid of it.

It was like he flashed back to last years game 5 against the Celtics.

Or, you know...that Mon-stars theory (not to belabor the point).

Typical LeBron when things get tough he runs and hides and quits on his team. The man just can't rise to the occasion and carry his team. Dirk is the perfect example. Fighting a 102 fever and what does he do? Score the most important points of the game including the winning basket. "Nuff said.

I hate Lebron as much as the next guy, but he had been clutch and playing great up until the finals.  I wouldn't bury him just yet.

Though I hope he continues to suck.  I'll take much enjoyment in that.

ditto....go Mavs!



Coop

Ditto on that. I'll be a happy guy with another 3-11 and 8 pt performance tonight.

yeah i would love that, but he is a very talented player, i can see him going off for 30 something tonight. 

Probem is though, he tried to take a SUPER shortcut.

he could've went to Chicago and played with Derrick Rose and nobody would've hated on him or said a word. I agree with leaving Cleveland, but my God it almost shows a lack of balls and confidence in his ability having to load the team THAT much.

Lebron in 8 NBA finals games, has yet to score over 25pts in one of them.

Couple that with the Dirk hammering him 44-9 in the 4th.. guys this isn't how the best player in the league plays.

Heat take Games 5 and 6.  Take it to the bank!

Lebron's the most talented player in the league right now, but that doesn't mean he's the "best." :peace:

Great players don't disappear in clutch time.

Damn!  My brain cells aren't functioning well tonight...a few years ago one of the Freak-o-nomics authors wrote about this.  The "great players playing better in the clutch" stuff is for the most part, a myth.  I know it goes against conventional wisdom, but over time we remember what we want to remember...the numbers don't always bear out what we want to see...just sayin'. 
 :peace:

James disappears again in the 4th qtr and Dallas ends up with a pretty convincing win. If i'm Miami i am concerned. James can't close the game out and Wade is hurt. Who knows how effective he'll be from here on out.

whats ur bank account Prez?

Trust me D, you always want Axl4Prez picking against your team.  It's a great omen.  You just have to hope he doesn't jump on the Mavericks bandwagon now.

Great win for the Mavs, but they still have a tough task at hand, having to win one game at Miami.  Lebron had a triple double tonight, but didn't show up in the 4th AGAIN!  I love it.

You're right winning one in Miami will not be easy, but, you can look at it this way too. Miami has to do something they haven't in this series. Win two in a row.

I just dont think Dallas can be stopped at this point...they clearly want it more and it showed tonight!



Coop

Dallas has one more game like tonight and they are champs period.

But they don't play this bad.  Quick stats analysis shows there are about 6 former league MVP's who averaged this few points in the 4th quarter in an NBA finals.

5 of them (Walton, Kareem, Robertson, Malone, and I forget who the 5th was) were all WELL past their prime, WELL past their MVP days, when they garnered that stat.

The 6th? Lebron James, this year.

This doesn't just "feel true".  It is true. 

And...there's more evidence (game 2) that the Mavs can win in Miami than there is that Miami can win 2 straight against the Mavs.

Interesting factiod:  The Heat have played the Mavs 7 times so far this season.  Lebron has not managed more than 23 points (or maybe it was 24) in any of those games. 

Man, you just jinxed it with your trademark kiss of death.

I didn't really care who won before but I'm definitely cheering for Dallas now. They have more heart and know who their leader is. Lebron's offensive play in the 4th has become joke. He talks about this "contributes in other ways" crap like on defense. You can't play defense and score at the other end too?

It's hard to rip on a guy who just became one of the select few to have a triple double in an NBA Finals game.  However, he has GOT to show up in the 4th of a tight game, and he HAS to score more than 17 points if his team is going to win. 

I just hope Axl4Prez has never served as anyone's best man or godparent :hihi:

How about this for bulletin board material for the Mavs.

LeBron, Wade feign illness before game
By Tim MacMahon
ESPNDallas.com

DALLAS -- Dirk Nowitzki's sinus infection and the ensuing storyline apparently was a source of amusement for Miami Heat superstars Dwyane Wade and LeBron James before Game 5.

As they walked out of American Airlines Center after Thursday morning's shootaround, Wade and James pretended to cough and wheeze, smirking as they repeatedly covered their mouths with their shirts while being filmed by Miami CBS affiliate WFOR.

"Whoa, did y'all hear me cough? I think I'm sick," Wade said before turning toward James and chuckling.

This came two days after Nowitzki scored 21 points, including a critical driving layup in the last minute, while playing with a 101-degree fever during the Dallas Mavericks' NBA Finals-tying Game 4 win.

NBA Finals on ESPN.com

Heat Mavericks The Mavericks and Heat face off for the NBA championship. Follow the matchup on ESPN.com:

? Finals page | Finals schedule
? Mavs Center | Blog | ESPN Dallas
? Heat Index | TrueHoop | Playoffs

Wade had already made it clear that he believed the story of Nowitzki playing through illness and injury -- the Mavericks' superstar tore the tendon in his left middle finger in the series opener -- had been overblown.

"I have respect for him as a great player. I'm not going to get into the injuries," Wade said Wednesday. "Everyone is injured at this time. I'm not going to get into the fun-loving story of him being sick, either. Once you show up on the court, you show up on the court. Everyone is equal.

"He's a great player without all the dramatics of the stories that's been going on."

Wade, who once had a shoe commercial that glorified his toughness, is dealing with his own injury now. He suffered a bruised left hip during a first-quarter collision with Dallas reserve forward Brian Cardinal during Miami's Game 5 loss Thursday night, causing him to miss two extended stretches of the game.

"I don't talk about injuries," Wade said after Game 5. "It's unfortunate that I had to leave the game, but I came back and I finished it. ... Once you're on the court, you're on the court. I don't have no excuses."

Nowitzki still had a slight cough Thursday night, but his fever was down and he felt fine while scoring 29 points to help the Mavs take a 3-2 series lead.

"He may not be 100 percent," coach Rick Carlisle said, "but he seemed to be OK."

Tim MacMahon covers the Mavericks for ESPNDallas.com.

They may wanna worry more about you know closing out a game in the 4th qtr then making fun of a guy that's outplayed the whole miami team in the 4th.

Exactly, at this point i'm more confident Dallas can win one in Miami then i am Miami can win two in a row.

Godparent once...Groomsman several times...
Wrong with predictions? All the time!   8)

You guys are cracking the shit outta me!   :rofl:
I am a very fortunate man in that I'm too smart to gamble!
btw folks, I am STILL picking the Heat to win this series.   8)

This is why I stand by my "Lebron James is everything that is wrong with the NBA." 

This guy is either that arrogant or a fucking moron, I think he's a little of both.  He is there mocking a guy for doing something that Lebron has never done even when he's 100% healthy!!!  What a joke.  Shame on Wade for being a part of that.  I have never rooted more for a team that isn't mine more than the Dallas Mavericks right now.

I'm gonna go more to the moronic side than arrogant.

Dirk has outscored Lebron and Wade combined in the 4th quarter 52-51



So many people over past decade have rolled their eyes at my DIrk mancrush but i still say he is the best player in the NBA right now and has been a top 5 for the past 5 years.

People forget Dirk's second best player has been injured past 50 plus games. think about that for a second. Dirk doesn't have a teammate ranked in the top 30 in the NBA whereas LEbron has Wade and bosh  Wade and Lebron top 5 maybe top 3 and bosh is no worse than top 25.


Kobe had Shaquille O Neal and vice Versa ,Dirk has Josh Howard.

Teammates matter.

I heard on the radio today that part of the reason (excuse) for Lebron's troubles in the finals is because Rashard Lewis is messing around with his girlfriend.

You can't make this stuff up.  Last year Delonte West was banging Lebron's mom, and he couldn't rise above that.  Now his girl is cheating on him and he can't get it done.  I love how everyone messes with the guy.  Just grab a woman in his life, and he'll fold.

If that's true i do feel a little bad for him. No one wants to be cheated on but, if it is affecting his game i hope it affects it for just one more!

I saw Lebron before the game and asked him to break a dollar. He only gave me $.75 in return. I asked him for the rest and he said: "I don't have a fourth quarter."

 :rofl: :rofl:

nice!


Coop

Even if his slut is banging another dude.. shows further what a weak minded pussy he is.

Dirk's Fiancee 2 years ago got arrested for identity theft fraud and all sorts of shit while claiming she was pregnant with his kid... What did Dirk do? He averaged 35 and 12 against Denver.

The difference is Dirk is a cold blooded pro and things like this, no matter how they influence player's lives, Dirk forgets about them when he's on the court. That's more of a personallity difference, nothing LeBron can do about anyway. Some players deal with stuff like their wifes abusing them (Jason Kidd), their closest friends getting killed (A.I.) but it doesn't affect them when they play because they are focused 100% on the game when they are playing. We all saw what happened to LeBron vs Boston last year and we all know what was the cause of it.  :hihi:

Then likewise hate on Kobe, Garnett, and about 50% of the other superstars in the NBA who make moronic "trash talk" both on and off the courts.

I'm not a particular fan of that brand of nonsense...but Lebron (and Wade) are hardly unique in doing that kind of stuff.  Hell, Shaq was FAMOUS for it, and he's "beloved" by practially EVERYONE in and out of the league.  When Shaq did it, it was "clowning" and everyone laughed.  When these chuckleheads do it, it's the end of the world...but at the end of the day, it's the same juvenile BS.

My response:

Too fucking bad.

Look, I don't mean to be a callous jerk, but you step out on the court, you do your job.  You put the personal shit to the back of your brain and do what your bosses are PAYING you to do.  Period. That's what being a PROFESSIONAL ball player means.

Everyone in life has bad personal shit happen to them.   We all get up and go to work and, hopefully, do the best we can.  If his Mom died (god forbid)....then he gets a pass.  His girl stepping out?  Nope.  Man up, call "Cheaters", and get your ass out on the court and ball.

Damn, i think Rashard Lewis took his talents to Dallas this weekend.. Dirk 4-20 DAMN

WOWWWWWWW what a feeling

seeing ur favorite player and team of all time win a championship.... Not much compares to that

I am in tears watching this

unreal!



PS Lebron is a fucking heartless bitch but im glad he is.

Congrats D, to you and your Mavs.  A great series all around, made even sweeter by Miami losing.  Gotta love it! 

Maybe next year Lebron.  Now go take your talents to a golf course nearby.

i dread the influx of bandwagon frontrunner fans.. but fuck it. I know I've been a fan for over a decade.

Miami honestly should trade Lebron for Dwight Howard. I think Lebron and Wade are too similar. neither are good without the ball.

Think about it

they beat a shitty Philly team a banged up injured Boston team and a one dimensional Chicago team.

Isn't it great seeing Lebron fail!

Great thing is, now Dirk's legacy is cemented

if u think about it, he had one of the toughest roads to finals in recent memory. Beat a fantastic Portland team. Swept Kobe and LA, Beat Kevin Durant and then Wade,James Bosh

name another superstar that beat that many big time opponents in one playoff?

You're right he is without a doubt now considered an all time great. A career that will no doubt end with a hall of fame induction.

Interesting stat just mentioned on ESPN. Dallas is just the 5th team in history to have a team with one all star beat a team with 3 or more.

Im telling u, Dirk is one of the 15-20 greatest of all time.

 U gotta remember, as great as Kobe is, he has Shaquille Freaking O Neal, Pau Gasol, LamarOdom, Ron Artest, Andrew Bynum Phil Jackson etc etcc

Larry BIrd played with 4 Hall of famers, Magic played with tons of hall of famers

Dirk has NEVER had a hall of fame teammate in their prime.

Steve Nash wasn't Steve Nash MVP  when he was in Dallas and Kidd is 38

Give Dirk Shaq or Kobe etc he'd have tons of rings.

I might even go as far to say he is top 10 all time.

Carlise is now 11-3 all time in potential series clinchers. That is the best all time. That guy is a fantastic coach. Putting Barea in the starting lineup is what changed this series around. Every move he made was the right one.

Congrats D, great win last night for anyone who is a fan of heart and true competitiveness.  You can't shortcut your way to greatness. 

Dirk is definitely among the greatest of all time, but Top 20 might be pushing it.  That Top 50 list they made in 1997 is pretty legit, when they make the Top 75 in about 10 years, Dirk will certainly join the list along with Kobe, Kidd, Nash, Wade, Lebron etc..  As to where he ranks on that list you wont know that until years after he retires.  It is conceivable that he could crack the Top 20 by the time he is done.

(http://i52.tinypic.com/atouhj.jpg)

LeGone fishing.  :rofl:

Happy for Dirk & J-Kidd. They really deserved it after so many years.

Anyone catch Stern mispronouncing 'Nowitzki' when he presented the MVP trophy?  He pronounced the w as a 'w' instead of a 'v'.  How does the commissioner not know how to say the name of one of his league's biggest stars?

Lebron really needs some PR help.  Saying that haters still need to get back to their miserable lives after the euphoria wears off was beyond pathetic of him.  And while he's working on image recovery, maybe try and figure out why he was -24 in a championship elimination game, while every other starter on his team was net positive.  

Lebron needs to see if Derek Jeter is offering "media savy" seminars and, if he is, sign up for one, quick.

Even if he meant (as he's saying, through "friends", now) that basketball isn't all that important and people should get over hating on him and just focus their attention on their own lives...it's STILL a boneheaded thing to say.  And I'm not sure I buy that's what he meant, either.  I think he meant exactly what the words imply:  Tomorrow, I wake up and am still a superstar who has more money than god and you peons have to wake up and go punch a clock. Ha ha. 

Hey Lebron..those 9 to 5ers are the ones paying your salary by virtue of buying tickets, watching your games, and buying your merch.  Maybe pissing them off ain't such a great idea, eh?

I get being frustrated, but he sucked this series.  The "Lebron can't close" Lebron showed up (again) and I think Lebron would be better served shutting his mouth, growing a pair of balls, owning up to how bad he was, and hitting the gym for the next 6 months (+, depending on how long the lockout is) to work on his game.

Congrats, D.

He looks like an even bigger dickhead then before and i didn't think it was possible. He proved me wrong again.

Jeter's level of media savvy is way out of reach for Lebron, but at least take a page from A-Rod's m.o. from recent years -- if you can't say anything right, just stop talking and play the game. 

people can't overlook that Dallas had one of the toughest roads to the championship in NBA history.

Portland was one of the toughest first rd matchups anybody will see

LA were the defending two time champs.. Now people can make excuses how LA had internal problems or this and that, but LA sure looked great in games 1 and 3. Dallas deserve credit for beating LA. Maybe not the same LA team but still a damn talented one.

OKC with Kevin Durant who actually BEAT Dirk for first team all NBA. All I heard was how Kendrick Perkins put them over the top etc.


And Miami. Hate them or not.. having those 3 talents together and for a team like Dallas with only ONE all star. Let's think about that again, only ONE all star.   Dirk is one of only 5 players to win a title against 3 allstars and being the only all star.


U cant compare greatness  by rings alone. People also have that Nostalgic nothing New can be as good as something old mentality also.. so that makes it tough for people to say Dirk is better than Barkley or McHale or Malone etc. Cause those names were such global iconic names for so long and Dirk is foreign born and has ZERO tv commercials so some of those older guys become a bit too highly rated.
Is Dirk better than Kevin McHale? Of Course, better than Barkley? Sure. better than Malone.. I honestly think so.


Not even Jordan went through the laundry list of superstars Dirk did to win a title. Kobe,Pau,Durant,Westbrook,Lebron,Wade,Bosh and Dirk outplayed them all.

hold on there D, you are starting to sound crazy.  He might be better than McCale but certainly not Barkley or Malone.  He is getting there though and in time after he retires he might be.  This title was great, but Barkely's Suns and Malone's Jazz would have beaten this Miami team too, as well as the other teams the Mavs went through.  The Jazz had to play a Rockets team that had Olajuwon, Drexler and Barkely on it in the first round in 1998, THE FIRST ROUND.  I hope you are not just putting him ahead of them cause he won a title and they didn't, because Dirk didn't have to go through Jordan's Bulls to get it.

when he beat Houston they were WAYYYYYYYY over the hill. Barkley's back was so bad he was a shell of himself.

He didnt have to beat Jordan but he did play in the era of Shaq,Kobe and Tim Duncan only 3 of the 10 greatest of all time.

Malone also played with arguably the greatest true PG of all time in John Stockton. Dirk has never had anything remotely close to John Stockton.

Malone also made tons of mistakes in those finals against Jordan. the missed FT, Getting the ball stolen from behind by Jordan etc.

Dirk has at least 4 more great seasons and I think by the time its all over with, he will be undisputed the 2nd best PF of all time. Duncan would be damn hard to catch.

also, Barkley and Malone didn't average 26 and 10 in the playoffs. Dirk and only 3 others have done that. C'mon that stat is ridiculous. Not even Shaq or Kareem has done that.

Just went and looked at Barkley's numbers and WOW, he had some amazing seasons. I just think Dirk is one of the greatest offensive players in NBA history. his shooting,FT shooting, overall game etc.

Way to go, Dirk, it's great to be the champ:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vN0tQd6Zao

That vid was good...but I just saw this one on ESPN...trust me, it is hilarious!  In fact, I think D helped direct this thing.  :)

btw, I do believe this Finals cemented a legacy...I have to be the worst prognosticator of the 21st century!!!   :hihi:

I think you give too much credit to this era of basketball.  It is clearly not as competitive as it was in the late 80's to late 90's, not many would argue that.  Thats also why  I don't think you can really compare era's.  Kobe might crack the Top 10, even Jordan said Kobe is probably a Top 10 guard, but not overall Top 10 player of all time.  What about Bird, Magic, Jordan, Oscar Robertson, Bob Cousy, Bill Russell, Kareem, Olajuwon, Moses Malone, Jerry West, Isiah Thomas... etc thats not even listing most of the original Dream Team who is the greatest team ever assembled in any sport...There are a lot of great NBA players over the last 60 years.  Dirk is a great player, it is fair to say he is a Top 10 of his era, but not a Top 20 of all time.  Once again, he is not done, when he is, then we will see where he stands.

Jordan played amongst some of the greatest players to ever step on an NBA floor.
To say he played in a weak era is revisionist history at it's finest.

The Mavs were a great story this year, and I'm pumped as hell that they kept Lebron from getting the hardware, but let's not get too carried away here.
Dirk is an absolute freak, but he had help. Sure he didn't have a "superstar" sidekick. He had something better, a complete team.
Dallas is a collection of complementary players. They beat a Miami team that was really thrown together w/o a ton of thought if you ask me.
Lebron, Wade are fantastic players, and Bosh is overrated but solid. Other than that, they had to fill the roster with scrubs and leftovers, aside from Haslem who was hurt.
They did an admirable job in their first year, but if Rondo, or Derek Rose are healthy they may not have faired as well.

Durant is another freak talent, but OKC is a young team, not quite ready to contend for a title. Dallas beat a team it was supposed to.
Sweeping LA was the most impressive thing to me. I loved every second of it!

Anyways, point is, Dirk didn't beat anybody, Dallas as a team did. And no team has ever won a championship without going through other great teams and superstars.
Keeping Wade and Lebron off of the free throw line is what won the series for Dallas, and that was the ultimate team effort.

I'm going to the Mavs parade on Thursday!

Idiot.

haha. almost forgot that i had made that post.

well.... I predicted West Finals at least.

HUH? WHAT? PWNT, OWNED

haha :hihi: :hihi: :hihi:  hindsight can be a muthafucka

John Hollinger at ESPN does a decent job breaking down the best finals series/teams/performances of all time.  Check it out, there are a lot of players who didn't win titles whose performances are ranked ahead of some guys who did, proving you can't really compare eras.  For example, Karl Malone's 1998 Finals performance is ranked as the 18th best of all time, Dirk in 2011 is at #33.  Both Jazz/Bulls Series are both in the Top 5 playoff series of all time. 

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2011/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-1

i hate those stats

Difference is, Dirk made the plays in the final 5mins.. Karl didn't.

yes, thats a weak arguemtn though because  Dirk did not make any plays against Michael Jordan's Bulls that's why its hard to  compare eras.  Barkley and Malone were both better than Tim Duncan, but because of Duncan's rings he get's ranked ahead of them.  Not really fair considering the scrub teams that Duncan beat to get those rings.  The best team Duncan beat was that Pistons team who even though they won a title werent a pimple on the 90's Bulls asses.  Malone had a much better series in 1998 against a FAR superior team than Miami, the writer said himself that Karls performance would have won the title against any other team, and he made plenty of clutch plays in those finals against the Bulls as did Stockton, Jordan just made more.  Thats why lists like this are good because it takes into account WHO these players made these plays against.  A title in 1996 is not the same as a title in 2003. 

Hollinger's lists are always good because he breaks down the stats(something D usually loves unless they are not favorable for Dirk  :hihi:)

I hear you that it's tough to compare eras, but Duncan may very well be the greatest PF to play the game.
Hard case to make Barkley or Malone being better, though it's a good discussion.
Duncan was superior to both on the defensive end.
He is the single biggest reason Spurs have the highest winning percentage of any team in the 4 major sports since he came into the NBA.
Backbone of a dynasty. He elevated his game in the biggest moments.
3 time Finals MVP. Had to go through Shaq's Lakers to get to the Finals in '03. They were no scrubs.
Who knows how many other opportunities he would have had if he wasnt so injury prone.

yeah but he went to a LOADED Spurs team when he got drafted.  They were perennial 50-60 game winners every season but happened to get lucky and all get hurt one season, and win the draft and get Duncan.  He had David Robinson for the first 6 years of his career, as well as a great supporting cast.  Both the Spurs and Duncan stepped in shit.  Karl Malone also outplayed him both times they met in the playoffs, once in 1998 the year before the Spurs won the title and he kept him in check in 2004 when he was 40 years old and injured.  Malone and Barkley were freaks of nature.  Also Duncan never went got past the Lakers when they were "on."  The Lakers didn't beat them they manhandled them every year in the playoffs except for 2003, one of their off years.  Malone and Barkley weren't fortunate enough to play the New Jersey Nets, Ewingless Knicks or the Cleveland Cavaliers in the Finals.

im not taking anything away from Duncan, he is a great player and definitely in the best PF of all time discussion even though he is a Center.  I just don't think he is as good as those other guys.

Trust me, I painfully remember the circumstances, because I was hoping he was heading to my Celtics!

Spurs swept LA in '98-99.
Duncan played great, but got no help in '02.
Played great and beat LA in '03.
Hit the potential game winner in game 5 that would have given them 3-2 lead, until Fisher hit the amazing, but total bullshit impossible fadeaway inbounded pass with .4 seconds on the clock.

Duncan came into the league a winner. Tough to downplay a 4x World Champion and 3x Finals MVP.
Charles and Malone were no doubt freaks, but I'm not gonna hold it against Duncan for being born later.
Like I said, I think it's a good discussion. Could make the case for all 3, along with Mchale.
Great players would have success in any era. Tim is no exception.

I'm really hoping AI makes a comeback next season, if there is a next season.

The NBA just isn't the same without him. Either a bench role or something similar, just let him play.

Speaking of comparing different era's and all that, it might be fun to speculate on who will make the All-Time 75 list 12 years from now. They did the 50 in 1997, who do you think is going to get added to the list when the NBA turns 75.  You can include players that are definitely going to make it and young ones who you think have the potential... I put my definite makes in bold, and the rest are on the cusp or too young to tell for sure but should be in the discussion.

1. Kobe Bryant
2. Tim Duncan
3. Dwayne Wade
4. Lebron James
5. Dirk Nowitski
6. Jason Kidd
7. Steve Nash
8. Kevin Garnett
9. Ray Allen
10. Paul Pierce
11. Carmelo Anthony
12. Allen Iverson
13. Reggie Miller
14. Gary Payton
15. Alonzo Mourning
16 Deron Williams
17. Chris Paul
18. Derrick Rose
19. Dwight Howard
20. Amare Stoudemire
21. Kevin Durant
22. Tony Parker
23. Dennis Rodman
24. Blake Griffin
25. Chauncey Billups

Even Charles Barkley acknowledges that Tim Duncan is the greatest PF of all time.

career stats:
Duncan: 21. 8 ppg, 11.9 rpg, 2.5 bpg, 3.2 apg, 50.9 fg%
Malone: 25.0 ppg, 10.1 rpg, .70 bpg, 3.6 apg, 51. 6 fg%


those are the stats with Karl Malone declining in the early 2000's and being the 3rd option that one Laker year.  Duncans numbers will go down in a few years as well.

Malone has better numbers in a way tougher era, Magic, Bird, Jordan, Pippen, Isiah, Barkley, Olajuwon, Ewing, and tons more.  The 4 ring argument is nice, but the Jazz would have manhandled any of those teams Duncan beat.   Oh yeah, plus Duncan is a center.

I'm not saying Duncan sucks, he is a Top 3 power forward, but its not like he is the clear best of all-time.  Also, he is a center.

It's more than a nice argument, it's the reason these guys play(well the money probably has something to do with it).
The fact of the matter is Duncan has four rings and Barkley and Malone have none. You can say that they would have man handled Duncan's competition, and I may very well agree with you, but it's still playing make believe. You have to play the games. You may remember how Dallas didn't belong on the same floor as Lebron and Wade, or how just about every "expert" picked Lakers over Boston in '08.
Bruins didn't stand a chance vs Vancouver etc. Duncan is going to retire with 4 rings and 3 Finals MVPs at the very least. You don't stumble into those awards.

One thing Malone has over Duncan that can't be denied is durability. Duncan's best days are clearly behind him.
Then again, the experts have been pronouncing the Spurs dead for years now..

I know its the reason these guys play, but if Tim Duncan played worse teams than Malone how is it a fair comparison?  It would be one thing if he was like Mcgrady and never got out of the first round, But Malone took teams on his back to the Finals to play the greatest player of all time.  His 1998 Finals performance which was a loss is ranked ahead of many performances that were wins.  That's why the Hollinger list a page up or so is pretty good because championships are only part of the equation. I think it is only fair to base players on their era.  For instance, Karl Malone is the best PF of the 90's, Duncan is the best of the 00's.  The NBA was completely different in those 2 decades, so it makes no sense to compare the two.  Malone is also 2-0 against Duncan in the post season.

I tend to hate generational debates because it is hard to compare when there are changes in style, rules, nutrition, training etc... But I saw one comment that Dirk had the toughest schedule to a championship and no one faced tougher competition (even Jordan).

Umm... Jordan 90-91

Round 1: Knicks - Patrick Ewing (HOF), Mark Jackson, John Starks, Kiki Vandeweghe
Round 2: 76ers - Charles Barkley (HOF)
Round 3: Pistons (Back 2 Back Defending Champs) - Isiah Thomas (HOF), Joe Dumars (HOF), Dennis Rodman, Bill Laimbeer  ...Coach Chuck Daly (HOF)...
Round 4: Lakers - Magic Johnson (HOF), James Worthy (HOF), Byron Scott, Sam Perkins

During the 6 Championship Runs Jordan beat the following HOFers: Charles Barkley, Isiah Thomas, Joe Dumars, Patrick Ewing, Clyde Drexler, Magic Johnson, James Worthy, Dominique Wilkins, John Stockton, Karl Malone and at least 1 sure thing (Shaq). Plus a few HOF coaches.

Fixed it for ya Rodman is now  a HOF

U can't shit on Dirk though. True he didn't beat Jordan but he beat and outplayed ever top 5 star in the NBA to win title: Kobe,Durant,Wade,Lebron    thats pretty damn impressive.

you can pretty much pencil Jordan for having a tough schedule for all 6 of his titles.  I know Malone gets crap for not getting a title but look at his 1998 Playoff run
1st round Olajuwon, Drexler, Barkely
2nd round Robinson, Duncan
West Finals Shaq, Kobe
 and finally the Finals, Jordan, Pippen and Rodman and the rest of the greatest team in NBA history
The Jazz went through 7 Hall of Famers before they got to the Finals.  I know Duncan and Kobe were young, but Duncan won the title the following year and Kobe's 3peat started the year after that and Shaq was in his prime. 

The 1995 Jazz who went 60-22 in the season had to play the defending champ Houston Rockets in the first round!

Difference is, Jordan played from 96-98 with two other hall of famers and greatest coach of all time

Dirk didn't even have another All star on his team and his 2nd best player was injured

Thats big whether u guys want to give credit or not.

Stats are misleading.. Jordan beat Bird and Magic in 91 but it wasn't THE SAME bird and Magic.. they were clearly on the downside.

People discredit Wilt Chamberlain cause he had physical advantages over everyone in the league.

Jordan had same advantages as the league had nobody near his athletic ability in the backcourt.

NBA during Jordan's era was way more watered down then the league is now. U had Hall of Famers spread out throughout the league, most like Barkley on mediocre teams...

In 2011, u had some monster squads that would beat most teams not the 96-98 Chicago Bulls or those Shaq,Kobe 3 peat teams.

Lockout has started.

Dirk had a hell of a playoff run this year.
Jordan had 6 just like it.

That's fine. Wake me up next April when/if the playoffs start.

(http://i53.tinypic.com/2md15bp.jpg)

 ;D

holy shit D, I just saw this post now...I have nothing for this.  You are the ONLY one I have ever talked to that believes the NBA of today is even half what it was in the 80's and 90's, never mind actually better than it!!  I really have no words.  I think the fact that your favorite player of all-time plays today is really clouding your judgement.  The NBA of today is a disgrace compared to 1980-1998.

Its cause i watch every game and pay close attention then and now.


NBA wasn't THAT great back then.. people have that nostalgic put everything on a pedestal nothing new can be better than old sydrome.

athletes today are far superior to the ones back then on a whole.

The top guys:Jordan,Larry,Magic were better than today's but overall talent from 1-100 is much better today than back then.

I don't know about that.  Today's players are better "athletes", but they're not better players in my mind.  Guys either shoot 3's or drive to the hole.  The mid range game is basically non existent, outside of the elite players.  Also, with expansion and thus more players in the league the competition is a little watered down.  Although the influx of foreign players does even that out a bit.

this is also a watered down league where you not allowed to play defense.  The players today would get the shit knocked out of them by the Charles Oakley style guys.  Jordan himself said he would either score a 100 points every game or foul out in 5 minutes in today's NBA.

oh I know you know all about this syndrome D, what with the Slash and Scott Weiland/Corey Taylor conversations we have had.  :hihi:

Just to throw in my 2 cents on old vs. new -- in every sport where results are objectively measured (track and field, swimming, etc.), athletes clearly are better now than they were in the past (clocks don't lie).  But when it comes to other sports, it's always the guys in the past were way better. 

Didn't say I don't fall victim to it also.

Jordan beat a team in Utah that had Jeff Hornacek as its SG... are u kidding me? Michael never had anyone close to his athleticism and ability at his position which also helped him dominate.

Look at the NBA today??  Back then most great players were centers... today its spread around
  Jordan never faced a Kobe Bryant or Dwyane Wade type adversary at his position. Drexler back in 92 closest but no way Clyde was better than Kobe or Wade.

Athleticism doesn't always equate to being a good basketball player.  Larry Bird couldn't jump much more than six inches off the ground yet he was one of the best to ever play the game.  Then you have these freakish athletes that never become anything.  Kedrick Brown, Gerald Green, Harold Miner, etc. could supposedly jump out of the gym.  What are they doing these days exactly?  Kobe and Wade are arguably two of the top 3 players in the league.  No disrespect to Clyde Drexler, but I don't know if he was ever top 3 in his day.  I don't really see that as a fair comparison.  However, I think he'd hold his own.

Its not a one on one game!  Bryon Russell was the one who played on Jordan anyway, and I know he is known for Jordan making that shot over him, but there was a reason Russell was on him in the first place, he was a damn good defender.

So you are saying that Jordan beat a weak team in Utah? Are you fucking kidding me?  Look at all the teams the Spurs beat for their titles in your supposed superior NBA!  Those 90's runner ups like Phoenix, Utah, Seattle and Orlando were better than most of the NBA Champions from this era.  The Lakers and Spurs beat some real shitty teams to win all those rings the last 10 years.  The 01 Sixers, 02 Nets, 07 Cavs might be the 3 worst teams to ever make it to the NBA Finals.

The NBA has been completely stripped down, watered down, whatever you want to call it.  You can't play defense anymore, players flop or try to draw a charge instead of playing real D and going for the block, like a man.  Not to mention they hop from team to team to find the easiest way to win a title.  The NBA is full of twats now...

Yes they did but getting out of the West was the NBA title.

Today in 2011 NBA is at its highest peak. u have enough talent where 5-6 teams have legit title shots.

That Barkley lead Phoenix team wouldn't be top 5 this past year.

haha dude I can't...i just have no words.. That Barkley team would have probably won the whole thing this year...convincingly.   I'm not talking about this anymore, because we are never going to agree.  I will say that everyone I know who followed the NBA hardcore in the 90's stopped watching it because the quality of play is shit compared to then, and it is a pussy league with the foul calls and lack of defense.  I am one of the few people I know who still loves the game and follows it, even though I miss the 80's and 90's badly.

Phoenix had Barkley,Kevin Johnson ,Danny Ainge and Dan Majerle
Who did Phoenix beat?? Magic was gone with aids... Portland were old.... Houston were just coming into their own...
They wouldn't stand a chance against Kobe/Shaq Lakers, 08-09 Lakers or last seasons Celtics or this year's Mavs.

maybe not Kobe/Shaq Lakers, because that team was successful not too long after the downfall of the NBA which was after the 98 Finals.  So that team could have rolled with the big boys and probably would have won titles in the 90's.  But the 08-09 Lakers were far from a great team, the Suns could have played with any of those teams you mentioned.  Keep in mind, it depends what year we are playing in.  In 2011 when you cant play defense anymore sure the Suns would have struggled against these teams.  But in 1995, do you honestly think Dirk is getting those looks at the basket OR to the free throw line like he does today?  Not happening.  He would have gotten manhandled.

U really think Charles barkley at 6'6 could guard dirk? no way

Barkley was good enough to show up a so-called super-star like Dirk...Barley was just better and played with more talented guys in the leauge...and yes the NBA was more talented than it is now...im not really sure how people can even argue that.


Coop

38 points, 11 rebounds, 6 assists, 5 steals, 1 Block, 59% FG. ZERO Turnovers!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kE0W03l8CY

How's that for a stat line?

LeWon'tEverTakeTheLastShowEVER will always suck balls no matter what.

Im more impressed with his 2.2 points in the 4th quarter of the Finals....

LoL...true that!    ;D


Coop

Celtics vs. Heat should be a slobberknocker.

Great matchup... lots of big names - hopefully Bosh can come back at some point and mix it up!

Big C's fan, but they are so banged up I don't see how they can continue on.  Bosh being out is somewhat of a neutralizer, but still.  Ray Allen is far from 100% and Avery Bradley is out for the season, so that leaves them quite thin at guard.  I think it could be a competitive series though and wouldn't be shocked if the Celtics pulled off the upset.  Either way though, I don't see how either team has a shot in the finals.  The Heat would obviously have a better chance, but the West seems to be the superior conference by far once again.

Also a big C's fan.

Not holding out much hope for this series.  They looked SERIOUSLY overmatched last night.

If Bosch is back for the finals...I think the Heat could handle the Spurs.  Not sure about OKC, though.

Still plenty of basketball left, but yeah, so far the C's look tired.
Both teams being healthy, my pick would be the Celts. Unfortunately their plan went to hell before the season began when Green went down.
The Big 3 ended up being healthier than the young guys brought in to afford the aging vets more rest.
Losing Avery is real tough to swallow, because he can essentially neutralize Wade. Celts can focus on making LBJ a jump shooter...

No excuses though, Heat are banged up as well. I still think the C's have a shot as currently constituted.
Miami has no answer for KG, and Bosh coming back doesn't change that.
I don't see Rondo missing 9 layups again, and PP won't go out this quietly. Miami also can't count on the production they got out of Miller and Battier.
As horrible as the C's played, they were still within striking distance most of the game. It's maddening to watch, but it's nothing new, they seemed to play in spurts.
Can't afford to do that against Miami. Gotta play the duration.
Sucks watching the possible end of Ray's Celtic run like this. Too bad Pietrus has been a bust. I was expecting a bit more from him.

Anything can happen, but in my opinion, the only team left capable of beating the Spurs anyways is OKC.

The Celtics have been a highly inconsistent bunch in these playoffs.  They can't seem to put together 2 good games in a row.  On the plus side, they usually don't play poorly in 2 straight games either.  So if that trend continues, game 2 should be more competitive.  And not to blame the refs, but it seemed like the Celts were destined to lose that opening game one way or another.  Again, the refs weren't the reason they lost.  Miami clearly was the better team, but they did receive SOME help along the way.

Amazing performance by Rondo last night.
Free throws kept Miami in the game. Celts didn't get the whistles that counted though, when Wade almost decapitated Rondo on one end, or when he drop kicked Garnett at the other end, and somehow ended up with a 3 point play instead of an offensive foul. Refs managed to miss that, but their eyes didn't fail them when they T'd up KG for walking away from Jones who hit him in the face. Good catch. Almost as good as the T they gave Doc for saying "Come on Eddie" the night before. Hate to harp on the refs, but if the NBA wants any credibility at all whatsoever they need to clean this mess up. It's gone on way too long, and everyone knows it. The NBA picks it's superstars, and protects them. Paul Pierce is in the same class as Wade and James defensively, unfortunately for him, the NBA doesn't see it that way. He doesn't get the superstar calls.

Lebron could play another 30 years and never foul out of one playoff game, never mind two in 3 games, simply because he is Lebron James, and the league decided to coddle him from day one. Time to eliminate the superstar calls, and call fouls based on the action, not the player. They clearly play favorites and it's a joke.

Rant over.

Blown calls aside, it was a hell of a game. Holy shit Rondo was on fire, and earned his points.
Good to see Ray show signs of life. If this is the last year of the big 3 it has been a pleasure to watch.
I dont' expect to see a collection of players as talented and unselfish play for the same team ever again, so I'm not taking it for granted.
Too bad they couldn't stay healthy, because they could have been looking at 2 or 3 championships, but same can be said for a few other teams as well.

Series isn't over yet, gotta hold serve at home though.

Still feel that this is the Spurs year. I feel Miami would be overmatched, aside from a little help from the refs, which they'll no doubt get.
Not sure it's enough though.

It's crazy, if Miami or LA was riding the win streak San An is on it would be front page news, but they are a blip on the radar.
Never understood it. Consummate professional, and one of the best players to pay the position in Duncan, 4 for 4 in Finals appearances. Two of the most exciting players in the NBA in Ginobli and Parker. One of the better coaches. Still, people would rather talk about Lebron, who so far has only proven he can lose the big game with the best of them. Not typically a Lebron basher by the way. He is a freak of nature, and I appreciate his ability on the basketball court. Just wish he earned the calls he gets night in night out, instead of walking into the NBA with the respect of Michael Jordan, that's all.

Rant officially over.

I'm sure the refs didn't favour the Celtics against Atlanta or Philly.   :hihi:

Rondo was unbelievable last night... but I think Boston is done.  They gave it their best shot and Wade & James still pulled through.  The bigger question for me seems to be, with the team starting to gel without Chris Bosh - how do you reinsert him into the lineup if he gets healthy?  I think it could cost them a game or two to adjust back to playing with Chris... against the Spurs that might be too much & they won't be able to recover.  On the other hand, you need SOMEONE to face up against Duncan.

Spurs look way too good right now... agreed the media would be losing their minds if Miami was on a 20 game win streak, 10 in the playoffs.

The favored team always gets the majority of the calls.  That's just the way it is in the NBA.  Although the refs did call a ticky tack foul on Paul Pierce to foul him out of game 7 IN Boston against the Sixers.  That's not really showing much favortism to the home team, or the star of the team to boot.  They would NEVER do that to Lebron.

I don't really have a problem with the Heat getting 20 more FT attempts than the Celtics, or whatever it was.  But as LongGoneDay said, it's laughable that Lebron James NEVER commits a foul.  The man must be the best defensive player in the history of the game if that's the case.  He's ALL over the court, in on EVERY play, yet he NEVER commits a foul?  Something doesn't add up there. 

The Celtics were the better team last night.  They deserved to win and even the series at 1.  BUT, they didn't.  And they played about as well as they can and still it wasn't enough to win.  That proves that winning in Miami is not going to be easy if they even return.  Miami is clearly the better team, I have no argument there.  But this series should be even.  We'll see how things play out in Boston.  Will the refs be a little more fair and keep favoring the "home" team?  Will Boston be spent after laying it all on the floor in game 2?  Will the Heat smell blood and go for the kill in game 3?  All these questions and more will be answered tomorrow night.

Just to be clear, I don't blame the refs for losing game 2.  If Ray Allen makes that WIDE open 3 in transition with 4 minutes left the C's are up 8.  Instead he misses, Heat get the rebound and cut the lead to 3.  If KG gets the rebound with 15 seconds left in regulation instead of Lebron who knows what would've happened.  Though I would've liked my chances the way Rondo was playing.  Point is, as well as the Celtics played, they didn't make enough plays down the stretch.  They let the Heat off the hook big time, and the refs had nothing to do with THAT.

I wish bad things upon David Stern and Adam Silver.

Has it been 30 years already?
Never thought I'd see the day! Crazy game. Celts did what they do. Play well, build a big lead, coast, let the lead slip away.
They will need to keep their foot on the gas the full 48 if they want to steal one on the road.
Bosh coming back isn't a huge concern. KG should continue to own that matchup.
Ray Ray's moving around well. PP was putting together a nice game before he fouled out for the 3rd time this postseason.
Clutch 3 by LBJ.
Wade almost gave me a heart attack. Daniels knew what was coming and still fell for it.

And a Lebron James team once again one game from being bounced!

ya im smilin ...the heat cant even stop a beat up Celtics team


Coop

such a good day  ;D

Holy shit what a game.
PP's got some balls taking that shot in LBJs face, on an off shooting night overall for him.

Series is far from over though.
C's have been in similar position before and took their foot off the gas, can't afford to do that.
Don't want this thing going back to Miami.
Good news is they managed to win on the road even with an off night from Rondo and Pierce.

Nice to see Pietrus finally show up.

I can't sleep after these games!

Great news...as long as the Heat don't win the title I am good.  It would be great for a small market team to win it, or for Boston to win it with a well balanced group of veterans.

Why?  He's THE TRUTH!  That's what separates him from LeChoke.  Te heart of a champion.  Never being afraid to fail.


*Disclaimer: I still hate the Celtics with every fibre of my being. 

Let's go Western Conference!

I think it's OKC's title to win now  : ok:

They certainly look scary as hell.
Durant is the best offensive player in the game today, and there is no close second.
You simply can't guard him.

I was hoping the Spurs had another run in them. Amazing what they were able to accomplish, reinventing themselves, but they ran into a buzzsaw once OKC figured out how to slow down Parker.
Would have loved to see a Duncan vs KG finals before this incarnation of Celts/Spurs ride off into the sunset!

Definitely not taking Miami for granted though. I'm not buying all of what the media is selling.
4 days ago Miami was the second coming of the Dream Team, now they have to blow it up.
As much as I hate the fact Lebron came into the league having to earn nothing, because Stern decided they should market him as the next MJ, I think he's being unfairly criticized in this series.
Wade is the one who has not held up his end of the bargain thus far. He was one of my favorite players to watch, but seems to cry more and more as time goes about non calls.

Anyways, hope my C's close it out, but it's far from a sure thing..

yup

(https://fbcdn_sphotos_g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/599979_459922554036274_1550899959_n.jpg)

Celts really shit the bed tonight.

Not sure that's really a fair assessment.  Lebron James simply went off.  Even if the Celtics played well, that would have been tough to overcome.  He was just on another level.  He heard all the doubters and went out to prove a point last night.  Point taken.

This series has been predictably unpredictable since game 4, at least if you listen to the "experts".  Vegas had it right last night, but most people had the Heat buried and the Celtics wrapping it up.  That's dangerous territory for the C's, who have been known to fall asleep at the wheel in close out games before.  They usually do better the second time around.  Hopefully that trend continues, and I'm sure the "experts" will do another 180 and pick the Heat for game 7.  I wouldn't blame them.  At home, for game 7, with Lebron playing as well as he has.  That's a pretty good combo.  You figure the NBA would prefer a Lebron/Durant showdown over the cagey vets vs. the young upstarts.  I just hope the refs let it play out on the floor.  They've actually done a very good job at that from game 3 on. 

I think Wade has to step in game 7 in order for the Heat to win.  As good as Lebron is, I don't think he can do it alone, AGAIN.  That would be asking a lot of him.  Wade has been quite average all series long.  It's strange to say, but the Heat right now resemble Lebron's Cavs teams quite remarkably.  If he doesn't get some help the Celtics have a good chance.

I actually think shitting the bed is the correct term to describe the C's last night.
It almost seemed like they believed what all the "experts" were saying, about Miami being dead and buried, like all the C's needed to do was show up.
They never did. Offensively or defensively. Came out flat, and stayed that way the majority of the game.
They actually played better than the score indicated in the second half of the third, thought they had a great opportunity to close the gap, but blew shots they normally hit.
Overall though, just can't understand them walking the ball up the floor out the gate over and over. PP not attacking the rim. It's maddening, but I'm used to it.
We know they never do anything easy. Refs have let them play the past few games, (aside from some brain dead technicals). Hopefully that trend continues.

C's still have a great shot, but could be a mute point if PP doesn't get going. Not sure if it's injury/guarding Lebron or what, but he's going to have to take it to another level to win on the road, and if they are lucky enough to get there, to have any shot vs OKC. KG will need to return to form as well. Off night for him.

I agree they obviously didn't play well.  And that is upsetting.  But Lebron had about as good a first half as one could have, and that continued on in the second half.  That's tough to overcome.  Not impossible, and they have done it before.  But I give a lot of the credit to Lebron last night, more so than the Celtics not showing up.

I think with Pierce's struggles, it's more him having to deal with Lebron on a nightly basis than his ailing knee.  He's not close to 100%, but he's healthy enough to still get it done.  But we've seen him struggle against Lebron before.  It's not easy having to guard him for an entire series.  It would take a lot out of a man, I'd imagine.

As much as I hate to admit it, Chris Bosh really does make them a better team.  I always thought he was vastly overrated, and still do.  But without him they have NOBODY in the frontcourt you have to respect.  He at least gives them somewhat of a presence.  I'm not saying he's the reason KG struggled last night, but KG has been outplayed by Bosh before.  It's not as one sided a matchup as some would lead you to believe.  He definitely neutralizes things to a certain extent.

I agree with Faldor. The Celts had NO answer for Lebron's dominance and knew it from the get go. That being said, Lebron needs help in Game 7. He can't do all that again by himself.

Lebron had an amazing game, no doubt about it, but the C's simply did not show up.
They didn't push it, they walked the ball up the court, ran the clock down, let Miami get into their sets.
Not gonna win like that. The quality shots that they did get, they missed.

Hit some of those shots and it's a whole nother ball game, Miami can't run like they want and need to.
Miami are great front runners, can't afford to spot them big leads and expect to claw back, especially with our non existent bench.

Bosh is a boost, but he's not stopping KG.
He was missing easy shots, he will be fine come game 7.

Lebron is a streaky shooter, not expecting him to shoot that well two games in a row.
Really, Celts can normally live with him shooting those outside shots, would actually prefer it, cause he's not typically that great a shooter.
Unfortunately he was a one man army doing it all last night.

C's can still win when Lebron goes off, that's essentially their game plan.
Let LBJ get his, contain Wade/Bosh etc.
Can't stop them all, gotta pick your poison.

C's wasted a huge opportunity, and now will have to live with the consequences of playing on the road, where LBJ and Wade will be getting their home town calls.
I don't expect them to win, but I expect they will be more ready/focused than last night.
Hopefully it'll be a good game.

It was definitely a combination of the two. James was on fire and the Celts simply were going through the motions. Like they just expected the Heat to rollover and play dead. The Celts couldn't even get easy layups to fall last night. The hoop could've been ten feet wide and they would've found some way to miss it the way they shot last night. I do expect that they'll rebound for game 7 and expect it to be similar to game 3-5 and could go either way.

Yeah, obviously the Celtics didn't come out with that killer instinct last night that I would've liked to see.  But I don't think they exactly mailed it in either, or took the Heat lightly.  Lebron got off to a hot start and the Celtics tried to withstand the blows.  They did a pretty good job of doing so in the first half.  Keeping the deficit around 10 points, which is nothing in the NBA.  But every time they cut the lead to under 10 Lebron would have an answer and push it back to 12 or 13.  I think it just got to the point in the second half where they didn't believe they could win that night.  Lebron was just too much and he wasn't going to let them get back in the game.  It's rare an NBA game is as wire to wire as that one was.  There's usually a number of runs on each side, but the Heat had answers for everything the Celtics threw at them.

I expect the Celtics to play better, not sure it will be enough though.  As of this morning I had a pretty good feeling about them winning, but I think I've swayed over to the Heat.  Lebron knows game 6 will mean nothing if they don't pull out the victory tomorrow.  I think they find a way to get it done.  It's been a pleasure watching this Celtic team.  They've got a lot of heart and they've exceeded my expectations for the season regardless of what happens tomorrow night.  And I'm not going to play the "they're too old" or "they're too banged up" card, because they're not.  They should have already won this series, and can still do so tomorrow.  The Heat are not a better team.  I thought they were before the series started, but they haven't shown that in these 6 games.  But, I just think this time Lebron gets it done.  Next series?  Well that's a different scenario.  They have NO shot against the Thunder unless some awfully strange things happen.  Let's see what happens tomorrow night first though.  Hopefully it's a good one.

Did they get it under ten? I thought ten was the closest they were able to get late in the third quarter. Either way, they were never really in the game. I hope they can come through tomorrow and beat the Heat. If not i guess i'll have to pull for OKC.

The Celtics knew they had to be rested and ready if the Heat came out too strong in this game and they did. I think game 7 will be much more of a GAME than this was



Coop

Celts really blew that one.  ::)

Again, not sure that's a fair assessment.  Yes, they had a lead at halftime.  That means NOTHING in the NBA.  They were tied going into the fourth.  The NBA is all about the 4th quarter.  Usually anything that happens in the first 3 is inconsequential.  The Heat were the better team in the end.  They could play from behind.  The Celtics could not.  2 of the games the Celtics won in the series they had to fight tooth and nail to hold off the Heat.  Miami had more dominant stretches in the series and even though the Celtics SHOULD have won the series, Miami deserved it.  If that even makes sense, which I'm not sure it does.  I'm not bitter though.  The C's did as well as I could have expected this year.  This is probably the end of the road for the "big 3".  They gave us Celtic fans plenty of fine moments.  Nothing to be ashamed of.

I still think the Heat have NO CHANCE against OKC.  I give it 6 games at the most, more likely 5 though.

They definitely had a chance to win it. They just all the sudden couldn't make a basket again and at the most crucial point of the game the 4th quarter. I tend to agree with you that they don't have much of a chance against OKC. That team is a buzzsaw. They look scary good.

OKC will win regardless of who made it, but ya the Celtics just ran out of gas.


Coop

Let's go Supersonics!

It was all legs.  They were front ironing jumpers left and right.

When you rely on 6 guys....and 3 of them are not spring chickens anymore...you risk having them run out of gas.

They did.

Heat did the same thing...but your 3 best players are all young guys.  They did not run out of gas.

I was hoping the old guys could get it done (Celtics/Spurs) before making way for the younger guys, but looks like OKC's time is now.
They should be a beast for years to come.

It'll be interesting to see what Ainge does this offseason.
It's been fun watching this core the past few years. I've been a C's fan a long time, and never thought I'd see a championship while watching Jim Obrien's live and die by the 3 Celtics.
I can't get $10 seats the day of the game anymore!
Ainge put together a hell of a roster from almost nothing. We will never again see a player like KG after he retires.
Would like to see him in a Celtics uniform another year if the price is right.
This year's free agent class doesn't look too appealing.

Really looking forward to the Finals, the Thunder HAVE to win this series.  So much more is at stake than just the title.  It's a team that was built vs a team that was bought. As fans of the sport we really should be pulling for this Miami stunt to fail again for the second year in a row.  If they win a title it will only encourage other players to do the same shit, and will kill the competitive aspect of the league.  The NBA  already has the least parity of any of the 4 major sports, as since 1997 only 4 teams have won the Western Conference.    The small market/less desirable cities will suffer the most with a Miami win.  It would be great for a small market  team that was built the right way like OKC to beat Miami.

I completely agree. OKC has put a team together the right way. I'm not saying signing free agents is bad its part of all sports now. However, history shows teams that build there teams from the draft, their minor league teams and trades are far more successful.

Some very bad news.

Monday, June 11, 2012
Referee Greg Willard has cancer
ESPN.com news services

NBA referee Greg Willard, who was scheduled to work Wednesday's Spurs-Thunder game before being replaced due to illness, has been diagnosed with pancreatic cancer.

Referees during the Finals will wear No. 57, Willard's number, on their jerseys to recognize the veteran official, the National Basketball Referee Association said.

   Greg Willard
Greg Willard has been officiating NBA games for two decades.

Willard worked games in this season's playoffs, including one just last week between the Miami Heat and Boston Celtics.

Willard has been an NBA referee for 24 years and has worked the Finals since the 2009-10 season.

"Greg's professionalism and integrity have made him a role model within the NBA community," said NBRA general counsel Lee Seham. "We want him and his family to know that our thoughts and prayers are with them."

A source told ESPN The Magazine's Ric Bucher after Willard was pulled from Wednesday's game that a blood test revealed the possibility of a serious illness.

The team in the NBA more than any other sport can be impacted the most by 2 or 3 guys teaming up together, thats why it is so important for the Heat to lose. 

It is also hard for me to root for OKC because of their owner stealing the Sonics from Seattle.  But I like the players on the team, they are easy guys to root for, and its not their fault their owner is a douchebag.

Yeah, the way they left Seattle is definitely crappy.

Honestly, I don't see how the finals should be all that close.  But we'll see.  The Heat got LUCKY this year.  Everything unfolded just right for them to coast through the Eastern Conference.  The Bulls were the best team but not without D. Rose.  Then Bosh got hurt and they thought they could beat the Celtics without him.  Once they figured that wasn't going to happen they inserted him in the lineup and were able to outlast a cagy veteran laden team, that was a tad long in the tooth and had serious depth problems.  In other words, the Heat didn't exactly beat some of the all time best teams to reach the finals.

The Western Conference is much tougher.  OKC should be the better team decisively when all is said and done.  As always though, I just hope the refs stay out of the way and let things play out on the court.

I agree, mostly.

But it should be pointed out:  With the newest CBA...doing what Miami did would be tough to replicate.

 I am still a little unclear on how the new CBA will impact  the major market teams or at the very least the teams willing to outspend the others.  There is still no hard cap right?  I know they increased the luxury tax but that wont stop the Lakers, Mavs and Knicks.  Is there some type of provision in there to stop or at least discourage another Heat type situation?

The luxury tax is significantly more scaled...rather than being 1:1, that ratio increases for every year you're over the cap AND for every 5 million you're over (ex: year 2 of being 5 million over the cap, and you're at 1:2.5).  That means signing guys that bust your cap to long term deals will SERIOUSLY sap your resources.  You say it won't stop the Lakers, Mavs, and Knicks...but it will.  Because those owners want to make money.  Even with the kind of $$ they pull in...you do not want to be paying 12.5 million to the league for that 5 million you're over the cap.  And, 4 years into your deals, you REALLY don't want to be paying 22.5 million for that 5 million you're STILL over.  That's quite the hit in the wallet.

It also hits those that violate the tax with some revenue sharing penalties that are particularly painful.  Miami, for example...a mid market team...is actually going to be PAYING into the revenue sharing pot, rather than receiving money from it (as they were under the old CBA).

In addition, what you can offer "other players" on the FA market, once you hit the cap, has been changed.  And there aren't going to be a pool of Amnesty players around, for very long, willing to take cut rate contracts.

Taxpaying teams get a smaller mid-level exception (4@5 mil per vs 3@3 mil per), can take on less (basically held to the old CBA ruls, not the new ones...which is a 25% salary difference) salary in trades (until they're under the cap),  can't use their biannual exception, and (starting in a couple seasons) can't get players in sign and trades.

It's not impossible.  But it would be EXTREMELY financially painful to do it, and you'd have a tough time (even tougher than Miami has) filling in around those 3 guys.

Now, if the 3 guys are all home grown (or even if 2 of them are)...it's easier to pull off.  But trying to pull in 2 max (or close to it) contracts on TOP of your "Bird Rights" max (or close to it) contract?  Not as easy.

It's pretty telling that Arison voted against the new CBA.

http://espn.go.com/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/story/_/id/7380869/miami-heat-owner-micky-arison-cast-protest-vote-new-cba

Very cool thanks for the explanation.  I didn't realize the penalties were so strict in the coming years, that's good news for small market fans like myself.  I like the fact that it will help smaller teams chances of keeping their stars that they develop. 

Kevin Durant is a beast! Wow!

I got a little worried when Miami got off to a quick start in the first half.  Then I remembered.  This is the NBA, nothing matters until the 4th quarter.  In the end it played out like I thought/hoped it would.  3 more to go.

Nice win by the Thunder tonight, and a huge win.  I have said it a few times, but home court advantage in the NBA Finals is HUGE because of the 2-3-2 format.  All the Thunder have to do is win 1 out of the next 4 games and the Heat will have to win the title in OKC.  The way I figured  the Heat are going to have to win 2 games in OKC to win the title, because you have to imagine OKC will win at least one of those 3 middle games in Miami.  Good start for the Thunder, was nervous in the first half.  3 more to go!

Cool Thunder!  I hope the LeBron's lose.

So does everyone not in Miami.  :hihi:

And Washington  :-X

Good point, i didn't think of that, but i would think their problem is more with the owner not the team itself.

Who on the Heat paid off the refs to throw that one? That was clearly a foul at the end of the game.

lots of bad calls in that game....brings new meaning to "buying" a ring


Coop

Can't forget that goaltending call either. That was a clean block. Those two missed calls could've been the difference in the game.

Goodbye, Thunder. FUCK!

yeah, sad day for the NBA in my opinion.  Proof that you can take a short cut to a title.  Also proof that a title ISN"T everything.  Yes Lebron has a ring and I guess Chris Bosh is getting one too, but their path to a title was nowhere near as hard as Barkley's was or Stockton and Malone.  Like everything in life, timing is everything.  Lebron deserves a title, he is a hard worker and the best player in the universe but its not that impressive how he got it.  This is also not just me hating on the Heat as I have said the same about Tim Duncan who I like a lot and have a tremendous amount of respect for.  The only time the Spurs ever won the title was during the Lakers "off" years.

Guess I can no longer hate on Lebron.  Like Peyton Manning and Alex Rodriguez before him, he now has that elusive title. 

I now feel worse that the Celtics gave away that series to the Heat.  I mean, I didn't think they'd have much of a chance in the Finals but after watching the Heat dominate the inexperienced Thunder I have to think twice about that.  You know what they say.  Defense wins championships, and they don't play much defense in the Western Conference.  Of course it helps when you have a guy like Lebron playing such fantastic defense that he never commits a foul.  :hihi:  The NBA wanted the Heat to win.  Not saying that's why they won, but they got what they wanted.  And they're going to want to see the Heat become a dynasty as well, so get accustomed to it.

The Thunder are a good young team and they will be back. I think several things contributed to them losing. 1. their youth: they are still learning how to win, how to be a champion. They will be stronger for this experience in the end. A young team has to go through these types of struggles to become a champion. 2. their defense: they got away from the defense that worked. In game 1 they played zone defense and it stifled the Heat. After that they went to man to man and you cannot play the Heat that way. They are way too talented to play man to man defense. They move the ball too much and they'll find the open man every damn time. 3. they were a jump shooting team. You have got to attack the basket and get in the paint if you want to win in this league. Too many times they settled for jumpshots and didn't attack the heat.

Interesting stats:

Since facing elimination (down 3-2 to the C's):

The Heat went 6-1 against pretty stiff competition.

Lebron averaged 31 points, 11 rebounds, 6 assists per game.  That's a pretty healthy stat line.

Last 2 games vs OKC, he was ONE rebound short (in game 4) of back to back triple doubles.

He is not my favorite person, but give the devil his due: He's got a ring, now, and he's largely the reason why the Heat won.

Your evaluation of Tim Duncan doesn't make a ton of sense to me.
He is one of the best players of his generation. He is everything you want in your star player. He's unselfish, he's a leader, and he produces.
If there were more players with his attitude, the NBA might not be the joke it's become.
Sure he's in the right place at the right time since he played with another great in Robinson, coached by Poppovic, and has a great cast in Parker and Ginobli, but take TD away and you're looking at 0 rings, and I'm not sure how you can hold those things against him.

I agree with you to an extent that Miami bought it's championship, but find it strange that in the next sentence you would go on to trash the guy who has done the opposite, and remained loyal to his team throughout his career, and is also the single biggest reason his team has the highest winning percentage in any sport since his rookie season.

If the Lakers don't in bound a pass turn and shoot all within .4 seconds on the clock in game 6, which was a hell of a shot by Fisher, but I think we can all agree was total bullshit, the Spurs are probably looking at 5 rings. Health has been the Spurs enemy. They were healthy enough to win 4, but who knows how many they may have had if they didn't consistently lose Manu and Parker for long stretches over the past few seasons.

Anyways, congrats to any Heat fans.
You knew it was gonna be a tough series when Durant was in constant foul trouble the first couple games.
They certainly looked like an inexperienced team in the Finals. Makes you wonder if the C's had put Miami away when they had the chance..

Credit to Lebron, he played like a monster all series.

I never said anything bad about Duncan he is everything you want in a star player. but his teams beat lackluster teams in the NBA finals.  The teams he had to beat for the title were not as good as the ones Barkley, Stockton, Malone and Ewing had to go up against.  So the argument is a ring isn't everything.  People treat a title like it is the be all end all discussion of greatness, but it isn't because, all rings are not created equal.  Timing is everything, like with Lebron's title, far from the most impressive playoff run I have seen in my life.  The Knicks wouldnt have made the playoffs in the 90's and the Pacers would have been an 8th seed at best.  You can debate teams from eras all day and never come to a solid conclusion everyone can agree on .  I am just saying this Heat title is not overly impressive to me.  Better teams than the Heat were left ringless playing in a tougher era.

Gotcha. That game can go on forever though. Granted I see things through green tinted glasses, but Miami doesn't get past Boston with Bradley on the court this year, and the Lakers aren't getting past them in 2010 if KG isn't playing on one leg. It's all make believe though. Can't hold it against the champs, they don't decide who they play or who's healthy.

Agreed it's not the most impressive run as a team, but I have to tip my cap to Lebron. Granted he brought the scrutiny on himself, and god knows he gets lots of help from the zebras, but he came to play this postseason. He was a one man team at times.

I'm leaning towards retiring from the NBA when Kobe hangs up his sneaks.

When the WWE is more unpredictable than your favorite sports league, something is totally wrong.

The Value of Ray Allen

To bring Ray Allen back, or let him leave for another team, that is one of the biggest questions facing the Boston Celtics this summer. The prevailing wisdom seems to be it is in the best interest of the Boston Celtics to let Ray Allen leave for another team because they have up and coming guard Avery Bradley to replace him and Allen will be unwilling to share the shooting guard duties with Bradley for less money than is projected to be offered by other teams.

Money is always an issue in modern sports and it is quite possible that Ray Allen would want more money than the Celtics are willing to give him.  However, there are many reasons why Allen's worth to the Celtics is more than many have estimated, and it would be wise for the Celtics to match any offer made to the All-Star guard. Over the course of the last two seasons his shooting percentage from both inside and outside the three point line has been at the highest level of his career. With Allen on the floor other teams cannot double team Kevin Garnett in the post or play zone to keep Rajon Rondo and Paul Pierce from driving to the basket.  Quite simply, by standing on the court he creates opportunities for his teammates.

Another reason is that many of the teams who seem ready to throw money at Ray Allen, the Miami Heat, Chicago Bulls and New York Knicks are direct competitors of the Celtics in the Eastern Conference.  Does it make sense to let your best shooter go to a team that you are competing against to reach the NBA Finals? Especially when that person would be filling the same role for your competitor that they would be filling for you?

Ray Allen on the Heat opens up floor space for Lebron James and Dwayne Wade. Can you imagine the statistics Wade and James would put with Allen on the floor?  James could possibly average a triple double for the whole season.  Imagine Allen with the Knicks; Amare Stoudemire's scoring total could increase to the level when he played for the Phoenix Suns because teams would no longer be able to send a second defender to help guard him in the high and low post.  Stick Allen on the Bulls and the same thing happens for Carlos Boozer. There is a good possibility he could return to the 20-10 numbers of his days in Utah. Not to mention the space that will open up for Derrick Rose on the floor when he returns from his injury.

If Ray Allen is worth X amount of dollars for two years to the Heat, Bulls and Knicks to play 25-28 minutes a game,  it makes sense that he is worth that same amount to the Boston Celtics to space the floor and open up opportunities for his teammates to score.  Additionally, keeping Allen around will take pressure off Avery Bradley to produce big numbers for the Celtics. Bradley is still only 21 years old and having future Hall of Famer Ray Allen on the team will allow Bradley to grow into the position, instead of being forced to produce big numbers despite having yet to play a full NBA season.

Taking all of this into consideration makes question of should the Celtics bring Ray Allen back easy to answer. That answer is yes they should.

http://www.ibtimes.com/sportsnet/nba/the-value-of-ray-allen_294.htm (http://www.ibtimes.com/sportsnet/nba/the-value-of-ray-allen_294.htm)

I agree about bringing Ray back for a few more years, but I don't think it'll happen.  He is still a great 3 point shooter, and by far the best they have.  Bradley is a good player, and better overall player at this point.  But he is nowhere near the shooter.  And I don't think they can get anyone through the draft or free agency who can spread the floor like Ray does.  It doesn't seem like they're all that interested in bringing him back though.  It's almost a forgone conclusion that he will be playing elsewhere next season.

I think there's a good chance he's back.
In the end it will come down to what KG decides, and how much these guys are willing to play for.
Is it worth it to them to take less money to play for Doc?
Ray could prob get more money and (hate to say it) a better chance at a ring w/Miami.

If KG comes back, Ainge can resign our free agents for one more run.
It's a big if, but providing this roster could be healthy come playoff time (Green/Bradley), they would be a better and more complete than the team that just won the championship.
Of course I wouldn't expect the Thunder to have the deer in headlights look to them should they make it back next time around.

It's a gamble I guess, but you look at the East, with Rose being hurt, and the Knicks being the Knicks, it's wide open.
Miami is the biggest threat, and this squad plays them as well as anybody when healthy. Will they ever be collectively healthy together again is the big question.
The old guys held up their end of the bargain. It was the young guys that fucked us this year!

Yeah, they were THAT close to winning it all this year, having Miami on the brink of elimination.  People have been saying for years that the Celtics need to break up the "big 3" and rebuild.  I actually believed that more 2 years ago than I do now.  At this point I think they'd be better off keeping the core as is and working around that.  Up until this year, Ray was the best conditioned veteran on the team.  This year that wasn't the case, and who knows how well he'll recover, but I still think he makes them a better team than anyone they can find to replace him, even at a reduced role.  It all matters how he, and they see it though.

Looking forward to the draft on Thursday.  I don't quite love the NBA Draft as much as I did back in the day, but it's still a fun night.  Too many foreign players that I don't know though, and young players coming out of college who have no business leaving early.