Here Today... Gone To Hell!

Axl Rose says his former manager tried to implement a scheme to force him to reunite with the original Guns N' Roses band members and, as part of the plot, failed to properly promote the "Chinese Democracy" album, lied about a prospective Van Halen super tour and mishandled the band's tour dates.

What Azoff wanted, the rocker says, was the reunion of Guns N' Roses. To execute this, he would sabotage Rose and his new band so that Rose would have no option but to reunite.

According to the filing, "Upon realizing that he couldn't bully Rose and accomplish his scheme, Azoff resigned and abandoned Guns N' Roses on the eve of a major tour, filing suit for commissions he didn't earn and had no right to receive."

So much controversy and court cases follow Axl through his career...its sad...

Now that is one stupid manager.

given the guy's track record, you can call him alot of things, but I dont think stupid is one of them

It is pretty obvious what Azoff did and I think the court will see it. Any idiot can see really. No promotion, a sloppy booklet, no tour, no Axl appearances or interviews, no music video. The only thing that Azoff has on his side is the release of CD through Best Buy. And if I recall correctly, Best Buy were the ones who did most of the "promotion" for CD.  So what good was a manager that didn't do his job?  Axl could've released CD on his own.  I'm sure he hired Azoff to do tours, promotion, and whatnot.


I would like to see a reunion concert, but not this way. Only if they wanted to do it, not someone else forcing them to do it.

It is pretty obvious what Azoff did and I think the court will see it. Any idiot can see really. No promotion, a sloppy booklet, no tour, no Axl appearances or interviews, no music video. The only thing that Azoff has on his side is the release of CD through Best Buy. And if I recall correctly, Best Buy were the ones who did most of the "promotion" for CD.  So what good was a manager that didn't do his job?  Axl could've released CD on his own.  I'm sure he hired Azoff to do tours, promotion, and whatnot.


I would like to see a reunion concert, but not this way. Only if they wanted to do it, not someone else forcing them to do it.


Stupid? could be since he didn't do a job that he was paid for. heh Unless he got it in writing from Axl that he didn't have to. then I agree Not stupid. But sure is Evil.

Axl knew of Azoff's past history with bands, so he must have known that Azoff was pro reunion, therefore he shouldnt have hired.

It's pretty clear that Axls suit hold no water, because it cannot be proved. I am certain that both suits will be settled out of court. 

Let me guess: you're an insider and know if he have proof or not, right? ::)

Let the court worry about that.


For some reason, many people still seem to think the music business is all about entertaining us fans. Sorry to have to tell you this, but it's about making money like any other business.


/jarmo

Mr. Azoff is also known for bending the truth when it suits his purposes or those of his clients, a propensity that long ago earned him the nickname Swerving Irving. He has been surprisingly honest about his penchant for dissembling ? even saying so under oath, in a deposition in a lawsuit over the band Boston. After calling two music executives liars, he said, ?Come to think of it, you can?t believe much of what I say, either.?

?That?s Irving,? says Don Engel, a lawyer who has worked both for and against Mr. Azoff. ?His game is, ?I say whatever I want, and if I change my mind, that?s the new truth.? ?

It still blows my mind how the govt would even allow such a merger in the first place.Axl is dead on the money with this.

Seems a little weird but in a way or another I was told something like this like months ago..
That Azzoff's plan was a reunion.. now this just confirms it

Seems a little weird but in a way or another I was told something like this like months ago..
That Azzoff's plan was a reunion.. now this just confirms it

And while I'm finally speaking my mind, there's only one person who can manage this band, take care of it and be trusted.  That's Beta.  Get her a good staff to support her.

This seems extremely stupid to me.

How can any of this be proved, a secret plan? lol. Sounds like a lot of paranoid ramblings to me.

It makes little sense, trying to make the new band fail would not result in a reunion, messing up the tour would not result in a reunion. We have had a cancelled tour before and that didnt force a reunion. If Axl couldnt tour he would do nothing. He did nothing for years, its doesnt mean a reunion.

Azoff didnt fuck up the promotion of CD, all Axl had to do was get out there and do few shows, appear on a few talk shows, do more interviews. That's what it would have taken, Azoff doesnt need to spoon feed him that. Sure Azoff has a role in that but Axl is the one people wasnt to see/hear not Azoff.

Axl knew of Azoff's past history with bands, so he must have known that Azoff was pro reunion, therefore he shouldnt have hired.

To me this clearly a reaction counter suit. Its an attempt to make Azoff settle out of court. It's pretty clear that Axls suit hold no water, because it cannot be proved. I am certain that both suits will be settled out of court. 

On a side-note, it's possible that US fans now have their answer about why no US tourdates have been announced. Considering around 99% of the country's venues are owned by LiveNation.

Can't believe I haven't thought of that before. I'd say US dates are in serious doubt now.

Can't believe I haven't thought of that before. I'd say US dates are in serious doubt now.

I don't think it's impossible to tour without playing LiveNation controlled venues.




/jarmo

it can be done
pearl jam did it with clear channel in like 2001

I'm pretty sure Live Nation is what Clear Channel's concert promotion unit became. They're one and the same now.

I'm pretty sure Live Nation is what Clear Channel's concert promotion unit became. They're one and the same now.

"favorable touring deals"....."uses his power to punish artists and harm their careers if they don't follow his orders"....."sabotage Rose and his new band so that Rose would have no option but to reunite."

How can you prove any of the above? How does Axl know about Azoff's dealings with other bands? Rumours, hearsay? That's all it is. It's not the bases for a lawsuit of this size.

"favorable touring deals"....."uses his power to punish artists and harm their careers if they don't follow his orders"....."sabotage Rose and his new band so that Rose would have no option but to reunite."

How can you prove any of the above? How does Axl know about Azoff's dealings with other bands? Rumours, hearsay? That's all it is. It's not the bases for a lawsuit of this size.

You don't sue someone and tell all these kind of things without any evidence or proof.

he tried to break them apart... that makes you say hmmm they sure liked him! :rofl:

So this guy is responsible for Robin leaving?

F.U.C.K. Y.O.U.



(don't take this post too seriously)

I am behind Axl 1000%. I said I thought putting IF HE WORLD in Body Of Lies was a poor business decision. He wanted NUGNR to fail because all he could see was $$$ for a reunion tour. Axl is Dean Winchester to Azoff's demons! : ok: You go AXL!!!!!

Is the document allowed to be posted? I just found it online...

I'm also wondering if this is what Scott Weiland meant when he said that Slash and Duff came close to dotting the i's and crossing the t's for a GNR reunion. Was Azoff talking with Slash and Duff during this time period?

I gotta say... hell no.. putting songs out there by anymeans is promotion.. perhaps not the best but it's something.

Shackler's, if the world, chinese, better.    these songs have been released on or movies/games/albums/singles... so it counts.

http://www.yahoo.com/

Nothing there but the regular Yahoo! headlines, no mention of the story for me?

Didn't Azoff manage VR for awhile or am I imagining that?

Where can I read the countersuit?

I seriously think that Robin... QUIT of GNR, because of this demon

I was thinking about that as well, azoff was pushing axl to get a new guitarist.. first step of breaking up the band

Azoff was formally announced on March 27, 2008.  Robin was formally announced in NIN on April 4, 2008 and he blindsided GNR with his leaving.  So unless Robin also had a secret hatred for Azoff, I think the timing makes it highly unlikely that there's any connection to the two.

U are correct

reading the countersuit, i def think Axl wins this and maybe he can be the artist to start the anti trust thing up and be the guy out front with it.

i know everyone is pissed at Azoff right now, and rightfully so.  But you have to remember that music is a business and businessmen want money.

Axl will always find it hard to find a manager that doesn't secretly want a reunion.  Its just too lucrative for a businessman not to want.  Don't be surprised at all if Doc has the same agenda.  Wasn't it Doc that convinced Motley to bring back Vince?

My point is that any manager would drop the rest of the band if a reunion was on the cards.  Not all managers would try to force it like Azoff has but they would all jump at the chance if possible.

Obviously anyone who may manage GNR would know deep down that the most money could be made from a reunion but in no way should they try to sabotage Axl's vision to get that.  In fact, if Azoff believed the band could fail on their own he should've done a lot more to help them out and maybe then could've re-broached the reunion subject.  There's a way to go about things, and it seems that Azoff didn't come close to going about it the right way.

Agreed, its very unfortunate for Axl.  Its 15 years wasted cos of Azoffs agenda.   (not entirely wasted obviously)
and im sure it will make Axl more bitter towards the alumni as a result.

I don't think 15 years has been wasted. THIS I LOVE still has the potential to be a major hit.

I don't mean wasted artistiically, but the fact that his manager and staff basically sold him out and dropped the ball on the product that he spent years working on.

Im sure the current tour is the final piece of promotion we will see for CD.  I doubt they'll bother with a video or any further promotion for the album now. 

Will be interesting to see what happens from here.

just because robin was "formally announced" in NIN doesn't mean he had quit GNR at that point.. that year was all about getting the record out and there were no plans of touring and all of robin's recording has been done. they didn't look for a new GNR player until there were "plans" of touring which there never really was according to axl. the connection is the time of "plans" for touring and the time ashba was announced.. not when robin joined NIN and azoff got the job through lies

you're actually defending azoff against robin, wow

Your argument doesn't make any sense because the counter-suit states that azoff was pushing for a reunion and not just to get a new guitarist for touring.

From Nikki Sixx:

@Axlrose vs. Irving Azoff.Since when do managers sue artists for commissions?Is this just about commissions?

about 13 hours ago via web

http://twitter.com/NikkiSixx/status/14336105197

I think that AssOff dude has messed with the wrong people this time... Now i know better! About the whole marketing stuff, and why the lack of promotion and stuff! What a way to run over people!

Imagine u have built a boat. After 10 years you are nearly ready... then AssOff suddenly show up, and u put your trust in the guy, who turns out to not be the captain u wanted him to be.

Hope he will pay for this..

I'm not so sure that Azoff will lose. He definitely will lose, but going up against possibly the most influential and powerful figure in a multi-million dollar industry is either really brave, or really stupid.
One of them has bitten off more than he can chew, but it remains to be seen which one. It will sure be interesting either way... and if Axl wins, it'll be a major victory, not just for GN'R, but for anyone who calls themselves a music fan.

In any event, I don't see how you can lay the low-ish record sales entirely on Azoff's door.  Seems to me he helped secure a pretty huge no-return pre-order from Best Buy that guaranteed a lot of sales -- and Best Buy ended up eating a lot of these sales, not GnR.  Also, Axl did next to nothing to promote CD (now, maybe Azoff's acts and lack of promotion caused Axl to say "what the fuck!", but that's still self-sabotage in some ways).  Moreover, the long wait led to this record entering a record-buying climate that pretty much doomed big sales from the outset, irrespective of whatever marketing you did.  NOTHING (other than flukes like Susan Boyle) is selling big nowadays: you can move 60,000 units in Week 1 and have a Number 1 record on the charts.  Remember when CDs sold hundreds of thousands (if not well over 1 million) in opening weeks to claim No. 1 position? You can't put the years of delays on Azoff's watch.

So, whatever asshole things Azoff did (and I am inclined to believe that much of what Axl claims is true), they are just part of the story in CD not selling as well as it maybe could have.

You made several great points here. Since this story came out I've read a lot of "Now we know what happened with CD" types of posts and that's just silly. Blaming Azoff for everything is way too simple.

Also, I can't imagine any manager doing a deal with Best Buy and then delivering them a product with incorrect liner notes. So some of the claims here seem a little preposterous.

I can imagine that.  Whether or not it was intentional or not, I believe it.  If for no other reason than Axl vented about it on the message boards mere weeks after the album's release.  Who else from the GN'R side would've approved the liner notes?  It's either Axl on behalf of himself and the band, or management.  Who else could've communicated with the label and approved the liner notes?

Ali

But from where would management, the label, or anyone else even have obtained incorrect liner notes?

i know everyone is pissed at Azoff right now, and rightfully so.  But you have to remember that music is a business and businessmen want money.

Axl will always find it hard to find a manager that doesn't secretly want a reunion.  Its just too lucrative for a businessman not to want.  Don't be surprised at all if Doc has the same agenda.  Wasn't it Doc that convinced Motley to bring back Vince?

My point is that any manager would drop the rest of the band if a reunion was on the cards.  Not all managers would try to force it like Azoff has but they would all jump at the chance if possible.

Azoff is known as a pretty rough and tumble guy, and, frankly, a prick, it seems.  (Read Don Felder's book about the Eagles and you will get a real flavor of Azoff's very hard-nosed tactics.)

That said, I have to say that Axl's relationships with past managers (Doug, Merck) have also ended badly, as have many of his relationships with ex-bandmates and others.  So, there could well be an interactive effect when two "difficult" personalities to get together.  I have to say that my first thought when Azoff was hired was that he would campaign heavily for a reunion - that's exactly what he did so successfully with The Eagles.  That would seem like an obvious thing to do, even though your client (Axl) does not want it.  Part of the (unfortunate) role of a business manager is to push their clients into making more money and developing more opportunities -- the reunion is the very obvious money card here, from a manager perspective.  Not saying it's a honorable thing or a "right" thing to do, but managers are not life coaches -- they are out to make a buck.

In any event, I don't see how you can lay the low-ish record sales entirely on Azoff's door.  Seems to me he helped secure a pretty huge no-return pre-order from Best Buy that guaranteed a lot of sales -- and Best Buy ended up eating a lot of these sales, not GnR.  Also, Axl did next to nothing to promote CD (now, maybe Azoff's acts and lack of promotion caused Axl to say "what the fuck!", but that's still self-sabotage in some ways).  Moreover, the long wait led to this record entering a record-buying climate that pretty much doomed big sales from the outset, irrespective of whatever marketing you did.  NOTHING (other than flukes like Susan Boyle) is selling big nowadays: you can move 60,000 units in Week 1 and have a Number 1 record on the charts.  Remember when CDs sold hundreds of thousands (if not well over 1 million) in opening weeks to claim No. 1 position? You can't put the years of delays on Azoff's watch.

So, whatever asshole things Azoff did (and I am inclined to believe that much of what Axl claims is true), they are just part of the story in CD not selling as well as it maybe could have.

what doesn't make sense is trying to discuss stuff with you, of course you hate robin since he has left, if dj would leave the band for touring with sixx am and GN'R needed to tour and robin joined you'd hate dj and love robin for the fact that he comes back for axl :rofl:

my arguement makes sense in the way that getting rid of robin - a long time member - was a first step for breaking apart the band at that time.. by breaking apart the band completely azoff could try and force axl to invite the persons azoff wanted (old line up) or else azoff would "freeze" axl's career, i don't know but that makes sense to me

Again your argument does not make any sense because azoff wasn't around the first time robin quit in '99 to join up with NIN. 

I would think that they will settle at some point in time, as most lawsuits do.
When you compare complaints, they both look pretty thin and the damages will largely offset.
Azoff may have a hard time proving that he did sufficient work to earn his commissions for the tour, and Axl will have a very hard time (from a legal perspective) showing lost profits in lower record sales based on Azoff not marketing / promoting enough.  Lost profits are hard to prove because you have to eliminate so many other confounding variables, like the record selling climate etc.  You basically have to establish a factual state of affairs that never existed.

So, in spite of whatever bitterness these guys have against each other, I bet at some point the attorneys for each side will basically tell their clients, "look, this is a wash and will cost you a lot of money to litigate."  Azoff will walk away from his commissions and Axl walks away from the lost profits.

Or maybe not .....

 :rofl:
robin leaving back in 99 have nothing to do with this, now i'm absolutely sure that you're trolling

You said robin left because of azoff.  I said because of the timing it was highly unlikely that azoff had anything to do with robin leaving either time.  How is that trolling?

lol, no i didn't, not anywhere did i say that, stop lying

I was thinking about that as well, azoff was pushing axl to get a new guitarist.. first step of breaking up the band

Yes you did.

why people say that a reunion would bring more money than the new band? i think thats not the case, obviously if you promote the reunion of GNR you will get lots of money for those concerts, but then its done, you wont have another album, no more tours etc. because probably they will end up breaking up again after 2 months, so its kind of stupid to risk the name of GNR again to get a tour instead of traying to create more expectation for a new album and new music by GNR. talking from a buisness position i think its a stupid move to try to get the old members back, the only name that will sell tickets apart from Axl Rose is Slash, but then you risk losing the most important aspect of GNR that its the one that keeps things alive and thats Axl.  but well probably Irving Azoff didnt care for the long run he just wanted the big bucks from a short reunion.

think u are under estimating this big time. A Reunion Tour would break records.

fuck a bullshit reunion.

can't reunite a band thats already active and touring.

Axl doesn't need anyone other than the guys in the band now.   Stick to your Guns Axl and lets hope this all works out for him and GnR.

A reunion would be huge if done properly.  and it would make more money than any current tour or album.
i think people are underestimating the potential of a reunion.

A reunion would be huge if done properly.  and it would make more money than any current tour or album.
i think people are underestimating the potential of a reunion.

Axl obviously doesn't pay any mind to it.   The fact that some of you are still discussing this is 2010 is beyond stupid.

Reunions are cool, if done for the right reasons. A reunion just to cash in would be just lame. Axl and Slash can't get along, so why force yourself to a reunion just for the money? That would make me loose respect for the original 5 alltogether...

Axl seems to have done pretty well so far "business" wise so I guess that proves your theory wrong. :hihi:

And there is reports that they've lost money on the current tour.

Could you post said reports?

A reunion would be huge if done properly.  and it would make more money than any current tour or album.
i think people are underestimating the potential of a reunion.

Do we really want Slash playing I.R.S or Better????  No!!!! Its like missing a girl you dated 17 years ago. Move on and enjoy the present.

A reunion would only mean something to die hard fans JMO.

P.S.  And for the record, I'm not saying anything against Ashba being in the band.  On the contrary, I think that having Dj in the band is an excellent move!  Not only is he talented, he also draws in the young goth crowd $$$ and once inside, Axl will have them mesmerized and keep them (as he does us) coming back for more!!!



P.P.S.  azoff is a dickhead     

I would change this to say "A reunion would only mean something to certain die hard fans" but I do agree with what you're saying.

This goes along with my previous statement about the type of new generation of fans (and their $$$) that Dj draws to GNR.

A reunion would be huge if done properly.  and it would make more money than any current tour or album.
i think people are underestimating the potential of a reunion.

Sound like I struck a nerve.............     :rofl:

A reunion would only mean something to die hard fans JMO.

Sorry... just laughing at veritas55's post. Not that there's anything wrong with it... it was very well thought-out, worded and most of all is completely true.
But I couldn't help but have a laugh at the idea of a "reunited Madonna". :rofl:

Just because someone had a thought about a possible reunion gig, being that it is the basis of this counter-suit, does not mean that they need to be shot down or accused of being on drugs. Discussing a topic which is directly related to the thread (Axl counter suit against Azoff) should not be censored and looked down upon.

Is a reunion likely? Hell no. It's probably as likely as the document being allowed to be posted here. Or even as likely as I am to be mod. ;)

But still, how is it a waste of everyone's time by expressing an opinion and putting some thought and statistics behind it?

Just because someone had a thought about a possible reunion gig, being that it is the basis of this counter-suit, does not mean that they need to be shot down or accused of being on drugs. Discussing a topic which is directly related to the thread (Axl counter suit against Azoff) should not be censored and looked down upon.

Is a reunion likely? Hell no. It's probably as likely as the document being allowed to be posted here. Or even as likely as I am to be mod. ;)

But still, how is it a waste of everyone's time by expressing an opinion and putting some thought and statistics behind it?

In my opinion, a bigger waste of time is attacking someone for having a thought.

Just saying...

But still, how is it a waste of everyone's time by expressing an opinion and putting some thought and statistics behind it?

In my opinion, a bigger waste of time is attacking someone for having a thought.

Just saying...

Just because someone had a thought about a possible reunion gig, being that it is the basis of this counter-suit, does not mean that they need to be shot down or accused of being on drugs. Discussing a topic which is directly related to the thread (Axl counter suit against Azoff) should not be censored and looked down upon.

Is a reunion likely? Hell no. It's probably as likely as the document being allowed to be posted here. Or even as likely as I am to be mod. ;)

But still, how is it a waste of everyone's time by expressing an opinion and putting some thought and statistics behind it?

In my opinion, a bigger waste of time is attacking someone for having a thought.

Just saying...

Since you're so unhappy with how I run this place, why not just leave?

You seem pretty miserable on this board. Whine, whine, whine.


If you have a problem with me telling people to stop posting off topic posts about what songs Axl could sing on a reunion tour, please take it to PMs. No need to, once again, use valuable space in a thread to attack me.

Thank you.

Now, back on topic.




/jarmo

Hardly miserable, I just think you treat people like garbage sometimes because of who you are.

They don't deserve it.

I just don't get why a discussion about a reunion, which is the whole BASIS (as I said before) of this counter-suit, is looked down upon?

i guess nikki sixx is going to be talking about this on his syndicated radio show, just heard the preview for his show here in halifax nova scotia, and mentioned hes gonna be talking about the axl rose irving azoff lawsuit, maybe some in sight on things because of the motley crue and doc mcgee connection

It would be with her former self.    :)

Sorry... just laughing at veritas55's post. Not that there's anything wrong with it... it was very well thought-out, worded and most of all is completely true.
But I couldn't help but have a laugh at the idea of a "reunited Madonna". :rofl:

I think people are overestimating it.  Greatly!  The world simply isn't waiting with baited breath for a reunion of the AFD/UYI era GNR.  Would it be big?  No doubt, but this isn't Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, or The Beatles like some people make it out to be.  Especially after all that has taken place.

I think what Axl is doing is definitely commendable, really ballsy, and justifiable given what was shared.   I do hope it all gets settled quickly between the parties legal teams.  The biggest concern seems to be how the lawsuit may effect touring "Chinese" in the US.  It seems like Irving controls it all from the tickets, to the venues, to the concert promotion.

I know someone mentioned Pearl Jam was able to do it without CC/ticketmaster but I know that was not succesful and in the end they had to succumb to the corporate monsters.  Hopefully Irving AssHole won't be a dick and mess with how a tour could take place in the US but given the little we know, it seems like he would relish in fucking with Axl/Gn'R anyway possible.  It would be so sad not to be able to see Gn'R stateside as the US is Gn'R's home and the shows are so killer.  To deprive millions of americans from the chance to see this band play "Chinese" along with "Appetite" would be downright criminal.  Do you think maybe we could get some assurance from somewhere, anywhere, anyone that a tour can still happen in the US?  Frank stated that the fall was most likely but now???? is something in the works???

I also don't get how Gn'R supposedly lost money on the Canadian leg of the tour.  The venues were basically sold out and the tickets weren't cheap.  I know the show is a large spectacle that is really expensive but still with sold out venues/merch/etc. how is it possible to lose cash...and those Pollstar threads were all encouraging that the shows were doing great.  What I feel ok about is that the Canadian shows were all through Live Nation/Ticketmaster so maybe there is no issues moving forward with shows in the US.  I guess I am just panicking now as I was waiting and counting on seeing the best fucking band in the world back here in the USA....Hope everything works out for you Axl!! We have your back...today, tommorrow, forever....

  :peace:

I have no interest in welcoming the "old band fans" here. And don't try to make any smart ass remarks about how I hate GN'R fans or something silly, because everybody knows what group of people I'm talking about.

/jarmo

Isn't this a GUNS N' ROSES board, new and old?

Shouldn't matter if Alex likes old and I like new?

rehearsals.. u have to rent space, pay the players, rent equipment, rent trucks, the stage was massive and they had what 18 trucks or something? U have to pay the crew members, drivers, video/sound people, rent the arenas, pay overtime, travel, hotel

taxes dont forget the insurance and with Axl's rep, he probably i would assume pays a higher premium than most.

I think it is more about liking the band in general, not segmenting it into eras and such. There's distinct differences, without a doubt. But I came here cause I like the band period. Not cause I like GNR 2010 etc.

not segmenting it into eras and such.

Shouldn't matter if Alex likes old and I like new?

I get all of that but don't you factor all of that in when you prepare to go on the road and tour.  All of that shit is should be worked out in advance so you know if you sell this many tickets at this particular price that it will cover "X" costs and allow for money to be made.  That is why there are production accountants and finance people crunching numbers to see where you have to be to make money.  I could understand if they just were not selling tickets but for the most part they were close to selling out all the venues.    Again, if they cannot make money on basically sold out concerts then something or someone is not doing their job...So Axl, if you need a qualified CPA for your team, I would be your man...I would honor the privilege... :peace: 

no offense dude but it drives me absolutely nuts when people make statements like this. as if u have polled every person in the universe and somehow know so unequivocally that people aren't waiting.

If  u go by other bands that have reunited, Van Halen, Motley, STP, Police, hell even new kids on the block all had huge tours. to suggest people wouldn't be interested is simply towing the company line imo.

i don't want a reunion unless its real but lets don't act like it would go the way of Creed or be some tiny blip on the screen. that is just ridiculous.

Well I think that is part of the reason Axl is counter suing Irving (because of the losses the tour encountered). In the legal papers it says that Irving didn't carry out his duties when it came to all the stuff you mentioned and that Axl had to get it all done at the last minute causing everything to be more expensive etc. At least that is what I gathered from the papers....

This is a GNR website in general. Like I said, shouldn't matter who likes what as I said in my example -- one person can like the old, another can like the new band. It shouldn't matter, this is a GNR board. I'm a fan in general, not of one era or another.

take it to pm.

Hey, that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.  Never did I say a GNR reunion wouldn't be big, or wouldn't be as big as a Spice Girls or NKOTB reunion.  I simply said I don't think it'd be AS big as some people make it out to be.  And no I haven't polled everyone in the universe, have you?  You get back to me when you get the results to tell me I'm wrong.  Until then, I'm going to hold onto my opinion.

Well I think that is part of the reason Axl is counter suing Irving (because of the losses the tour encountered). In the legal papers it says that Irving didn't carry out his duties when it came to all the stuff you mentioned and that Axl had to get it all done at the last minute causing everything to be more expensive etc. At least that is what I gathered from the papers....

Difference is, i said "I" believe it will be huge just based off other bands who have reunited who wouldn't generate half the buzz as GNR.

Difference is, i said "I" believe it will be huge just based off other bands who have reunited who wouldn't generate half the buzz as GNR.

U allowed your opinion to represent an entire world of human beings.

That's the keyword.


Remember when KISS reunited? Or Led Zeppelin. Or any other band.

They got a lot of press. People still read and listen to the radio etc. So suddenly everybody was aware of this "once in lifetime" thing.


Seems like you always have to try to come up with something "special" to sell tickets. It's either a "reunion", "the last tour" or "the biggest tour so far".

In reality, it's often "two new songs plus all the old stuff you want to hear over and over again".




/jarmo

That's the keyword.


Remember when KISS reunited? Or Led Zeppelin. Or any other band.

They got a lot of press. People still read and listen to the radio etc. So suddenly everybody was aware of this "once in lifetime" thing.


Seems like you always have to try to come up with something "special" to sell tickets. It's either a "reunion", "the last tour" or "the biggest tour so far".

In reality, it's often "two new songs plus all the old stuff you want to hear over and over again".




/jarmo

I think people are overestimating it.  Greatly!  The world simply isn't waiting with baited breath for a reunion of the AFD/UYI era GNR.  Would it be big?  No doubt, but this isn't Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, or The Beatles like some people make it out to be.  Especially after all that has taken place.

Fucking hell. I don't know what to say.... What I'm about to say is basically what I've said the last few posts. But it just doesn't seem to register.... Apologies to those who do get it.



It matters a whole lot if somebody comes here saying they're a GN'R fan only post shit about Dj, Bumblefoot or any other current band member and/or the current band.

Why can't you get that?

Why is it so hard for you to comprehend that this isn't the kind of place where you have to feel afraid of actually saying that you love GN'R today?

I have explained to you how this place works. I have explained the "policy" we have. Why can't you accept it instead of going on and on about how it doesn't matter what you like?

You're right. It shouldn't matter. But it does.

Because the only thing I care about if you come here is that I EXPECT you to be a fan of GN'R as it is today. I don't care if you liked the band in 1987, 1991 or any other previous year. It's pretty irrelevant to me.

Oh, by the way, the only thing I expect from anybody here is that I expect them to be supportive and a fan of the current band.





/jarmo


PS If you're reading this and/or posting here, I hope you're a fan of GN'R. You know those guys who have been playing live all over the world since last December (2009): Axl, Tommy, Ron, Richard, Dj, Dizzy, Chris and Frank.

Faldor, don't try to spin something when its right there in black. it isn't a big deal, hell u may be right, i remember Axl saying that from numbers he had seen, he really wouldn't make that much more money.

so it was obviously presented to him in some form or fashion and he declined, then thats when the betrayal happened imo.

HAHA Farewell Tours are the worst. I saw Kiss like in 2000 and it was the last one..... funny how i saw them again last year.

I really hope Axl takes this even further and helps the fight against this ridiculous merger. I thought they said the merger would be good for the business, last time i went to order tickets, they were absolutely outrageous!

Everyone got a right of freedom of speech, sadly you can't find it on this board :-[

First of all i am a fan of all the era's and the current line-up is just awesome!
But i see the point Cotis tries to make.....
Maybe it's you who don't get it .... what point he is making.
Of course response with how this is you website and you make the rules blablabla
Sure ya right on that ......

This board is close to an official forum of GnR and It's a shame it's owned by someone who can't accept any Criticism about what's going on with GnR
Very sad...

Everyone got a right of freedom of speech, sadly you can't find it on this board :-[

One thing I would like to see is some artists helping or at least giving kudos to Axl for trying to fight against a huge scheme of manipulation in this market. But I guess people are attached to their contracts...

I'm sure jarmo already adressed and he don't need me defending his rules, but I must say something (and I know exactly what people will call me after)...

I ran a message board once - not as big as HTGTH, but big enough to have several active members. And I know exactly what's happening.

Cotis uses this rethoric to put a spin in every admin decision. He's not that worried about a good message board, but rather trying to whine and take shots at Jarmo. Pure and simple. He uses sarcasm and irony just like my old brother did with me when we were kids - it's always in order to irritate the other, but twisted enough to claim "it wasn't intended to offend" or whatever. Of course, all he wanted to do is lead me to take the first move against him and then claim to our mother how I started all and how he was innocent. Really, as childish as it may look, it's exactly the same thing I see with cotis. Otherwise, why is he so worried how this board works and question every single move, even if he has nothing to do with it?

A friend once told me one thing: "freedom of speach doesn't equal to shit in the living room", haha. It's damn right. You can't evoque freedom of speach for everything you think you can say and fuck the rest. Fuck if this board is meant for fans of the current GNR.

Try to go to other boards. All I see is people taking shots at the band (Axl or current members) all the time, in every single thread. "Oh, Axl is so fucked up and shouldn't try to sue Azoff". "Oh, Slash's album is way better than Chinese Democracy". In my honest opinion, that's far from being fan of the current line up.

If the Here Today Gone To Hell message board is what you call "close to an official forum of GnR", why would Jarmo let all this negative shit flood every single thread? Really, that's your concept of being a fan of "all the era's"? To me, sounds like fans of everything but the current.

People feel all upset because they couldn't hijack the thread with cheap shots at Bumblefoot or how "Axl lost his voice" or whatever. If they think it's right to call Jarmo a nazi and his rules censorship, may I call this hijacking and bullying as terrorism, ok?

i agree , but thats why i found so stupid what Azoff did, you have an album that was known like the most expected album in rock history and you waste your time trying to get back the old band? and just throw away the possibility of exploding the new music?

he just needed to promote the name of GNR and a new Tour and Chinese Democracy and make a big deal about the people being able to see GNR and Axl again with a new album etc.

Yeah. And in reality you tend to adapt to your surroundings.

But in our case, it's labeled "censorship".

I bet none of you would go into a bar full of Flyers fans and tell them how much their team sucks and how stupid their fans are. So you "censor" yourself.

But on the Internet it's ok, "freedom of speech"...  :rofl:




/jarmo

i agree with most of that,what i dont agree is when people feel a need to desecrate the old band to appear to be loyal super fans.
if  i like contraband better than CD,that doesn't mean im not a fan of the new band. too much a lot of times is either this or that and it drives me crazy. if i like Slash, i hate the new band.if i think contraband is awesome i am hater. if i think finck is terrible,i live in 1988

i think there is a giant difference in giving an honest opinion and trolling/hating/not being supportive

there are several posters over the years that do exactly as u said... there are also several posters who i call the invite me backstage crew that seem to solely exist on here to try to get some reward and its fake as hell and i see through it.
read bodhi's sig for what i mean.

Hold on i don't know what you are on about

Instead of a mature civilized conversation you rave about it's my board it are my rules ...
Sure go ahead , makes you very likeable ....

Axl definitely has a case, but its hard to do justice on this kind of people. Azoff is very powerful in the music industry today, but hell... i dont buy my tickets at Ticketmaster... its a good tool... but i dont really need it, which means there's alternate ways to go to a show and not support this kind of blood sucking assholes.

This case has highlighted for me the scope of the Ticketmaster/Livenation merger.....Say, if someone did not want to support TM/LN and wanted to get around them and still get to see concerts - -  What alternate ways do you suggest?  (other than starting up my own ticketing company)

Well, I want to be able to read both sides of the arguement before I say too much more. The Papers lodged by Azoff would surely make for interesting reading, It seems they were lodged in the Superior Court of California,
which can be searched here: https://www.lasuperiorcourt.org/onlineservices/civilimages/index.asp

"On Thursday, Front Line filed a lawsuit in L.A. County Superior Court, claiming that Rose and GNR owe the company more than $1.8 million under their management agreement.
The suit also asks for a full accounting of Rose to determine what other funds Front Line might be owed."


I'd do it myself, but it seems you must be a U.S citizen to sign up there  :-\

"This site allows you to download scanned images of General Jurisdiction Civil (lawsuits greater than $25,000) Case Documents from the Stanley Mosk Courthouse (111 N. Hill Street, Los Angeles).  You can search for available case documents by either a case number or a party name.  Most, but not all documents filed with or generated by the Court since January, 2004 are included; additional documents, both newly-filed and previously captured, will be added on a daily basis."

well just to give you an example, and this is how it works in my country, im an unsure if the same where you are. But the big label music stores usually sell those tickets, most of the underground stores also sell tickets. The bad thing is that you have to pay a 2 euro commission. You can also pay at the venue (which here its not an incovenience, but if you are in the States for example... everything its far from everything, so that might not be a good solution).

But here even on the internet, we always have a company doing the competition with ticketmaster. I never bought my tickets at ticketmaster because most times  the website is paralyzed! Especially for the wrestling events here!
I must admit though that i only tried it once, and since bands only come here like once a year, its more usual for the website to get phrozen.

Anyways like i was saying, and because i dont wanna get too off topic here (cmon Jarmo, its Kramer!  :rofl:), i think Axl definitely has a case!

Thanks...well, I guess I should continue researching - I am in the U.S..  I've been looking at what I believe is their corporate website.  Page 6 of their slide presentation lists GNR under their management....of course, out of date, which is to be expected.....but what got me is the picture used!!  Really?!?!   :confused:

http://library.corporate-ir.net/library/19/194/194146/items/323932/635C87F4-C150-4D05-870E-32864DA050CA_LiveNationTicketmasterPresentation.pdf

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=194146&p=irol-presentations

Azoff seems to be a lot of nasty things wrapped up in one, but I have never heard him accused of being a bad, much less stupid, businessman.  Again, assuming what the countersuit says is true, what Azoff was attempting to do makes sense from a purely business profit-motivated standpoint.  The really big dollars, particular in the US market, are there for a reunion / nostalgia tour, not for Chinese Democracy (not matter how strong and anticipated it was) or ANY new music, regardless of the quality.  The sales just aren't there in this downloading / itunes single-driven climate for something like Chinese Democracy, which is not a single-driven, hip-hop super catchy want-to-be-on-my-iphone-ring type of album.  Chinese Democracy is a more old-school thing that requires extended, devoted listenings to really appreciate.  It probably would have done great in 1999/2000.  Less so today.

So, there was nothing "stupid" about Azoff's actions, from a business standpoint.  That's not to say it wasn't underhanded and disingenuous to pick up this band under the guise of being "really behind" the band and Chinese Democracy, when your real motive was to get Axl and Slash back on stage together.  He probably was angling for a reunion, saw it wasn't going to happen, held out to see if Chinese exploded sales-wise.  It didn't.  And he probably decided more money could be had elsewhere, with other less "difficult" clients.  Nice guy.

Of course not.

I don't know about you, but have you ever come across a situation where you thought "hold on, maybe I should just keep my mouth shut?".

No?





But that's the reality. That's how society works. Somebody always makes up the rules. The government, your parents, your teacher, your boss etc etc.

Try telling your boss you can come late every day because you should be allowed the freedom. Who's he to make up rules how you should behave and what you should do?

Then tell him he's a moron. Freedom of speech. Right?

Or maybe you think that's a bad fucking idea like most adults..... But on the Internet you should be allowed to whatever the fuck you want because it's all a big playground with no rules..... And you can't be held responsible for anything you do because it's only the Internet....

Wrong. Not here.



I don't care if people like me or not.

I'm not in this for some kind of popularity award.

Sorry if it upsets you.  :)



/jarmo

i did not say Azoff is a stupid buisness man, i said that he made an stupid decision, and i stand by what i said, he tried to do something that was not his job to win more money, he ended up losing his client and getting bad press. probably he doesnt care, but still.

?It?s probably the biggest negotiation in any tour deal,? said Randy Phillips, the chief executive of AEG Live, promoter of the Bon Jovi tour. ?On a hot act you can make as much money from 10 percent of the house as the other 90.?

Richard Perry/The New York Times

Fans in the V.I.P. section at a recent Bon Jovi concert at Hersheypark Stadium got to take their seats home with them.

?It was an amazing experience, even more than I dreamed,? Ms. Aguiar, 25, gushed after the show at Hersheypark Stadium here on Wednesday night, as she packed up her chair and lugged it to the parking lot.

Nearly a decade after ?The Producers? introduced the $480 ticket to Broadway, V.I.P. pricing has established itself in the ledgers of rock ?n? roll. This summer Justin Bieber fans can pay $350 to attend a pre-show soundcheck. For $800, Christina Aguilera will pose for a picture. (For $900, Eagles fans get dinner but no photo-op; most packages also include plenty of swag.)

At Bon Jovi?s three sold-out shows this week at the New Meadowlands Stadium in East Rutherford, N.J., the top package ? which includes the takeaway chair, a leather bag and a catered meal ? is $1,875.

Once available only for top-dollar tours by the likes of U2 or the Rolling Stones, V.I.P. packages have trickled down to the rank-and-file of live music, as artists try to maximize grosses and reap some of the markup value that the best seats get on resale sites like StubHub.com. And despite the soft economy, promoters have found that hard-core fans are willing to pay premium prices to get red-carpet treatment for their favorite shows.

?It?s probably the biggest negotiation in any tour deal,? said Randy Phillips, the chief executive of AEG Live, promoter of the Bon Jovi tour. ?On a hot act you can make as much money from 10 percent of the house as the other 90.?

Four-digit prices are relatively new for the concert business. In 1996 the average ticket to the top 100 tours cost $26, according to Pollstar, an industry trade magazine, but since then it has increased more than 140 percent, to $63. One reason is the collapse of record sales, which has forced artists to rely on touring for most of their income.

Artists and their managers say the V.I.P. programs allow them to dote on their biggest fans, rewarding loyalty with special treatment. And many concertgoers leap at the deals. Laurie Huey, a 44-year-old accountant in New Jersey, has bought six various V.I.P. packages for the current Bon Jovi tour, at a cost of about $8,500. She has five Bon Jovi chairs at home and expects to buy even more before the tour is through.

?Years ago I used to have to pay a scalper that to get front row,? Ms. Huey said. ?I would rather pay the Bon Jovi fan club or Ticketmaster and know what I?m getting, because I?ve gotten burned by scalpers.?

At Hersheypark, the well-oiled Bon Jovi machine coordinated several levels of backstage access. Members of the fan club got a backstage tour that included a chance to pose for a photo with Jon Bon Jovi?s maracas and mic stand, while the non-fan-club V.I.P.?s enjoyed prime rib, prosciutto-wrapped asparagus and white wine in a separate tent. Participants said their experience was well worth the price tag.

?I have money,? said Jim Leaman, 55, who owns a propane gas company. ?So if I want to come to a show, I want to be up front and I don?t care if it costs $100 or $1,000.?

What fans did not see backstage, however, was Bon Jovi. The more famous the stars, the less available they tend to be to fans, no matter the price. For the ?Glee? concert tour, which comes to Radio City Music Hall for three nights beginning Friday, a $300 V.I.P. ticket includes a gift bag and a pre-show party, but no cast appearances. (?Glee? packages, like Bon Jovi?s, are long since sold out.)

But Rick Springfield, the actor and ?Jessie?s Girl? singer, sells ample schmoozing time before and after his shows (for $1,000, which includes a seat on stage) as well as autographed guitars ($600). His manager, Rob Kos, said that access helps develop strong relationships with fans.

?Rick?s fans are incredibly loyal, which is the reason he?s still able to have a career,? Mr. Kos said. ?He?s very cognizant of that.?

Some consumers, however, see super-premium pricing as little more than exploitation.

?The artists are just gouging their fan base,? said Terrell Lowe, 49, a brewery sales executive and an avid concertgoer in San Francisco. ?The majority of people just can?t afford that.?

The profitability of V.I.P. tickets has spawned an industry within an industry, with numerous companies competing to run artists? fan clubs and develop special merchandise and ticketing packages. Live Nation, the giant concert company that merged with Ticketmaster this year, owns several such firms, including I Love All Access, SLO and Musictoday.

One independent company, Artist Arena, creates packages for famous artists like Kid Rock and Kings of Leon down to baby bands including Boys Like Girls, which sells a $150 ticket that includes a meet-and-greet and a trunkful of merchandise.

Promoters say that premium ticketing offers them two particular benefits. One is that high prices up front can effectively subsidize cheaper seats elsewhere, which leaves more money in fans? pockets to buy extras like food and T-shirts. Another bonus is that since V.I.P. tickets are not often included in general advertisements, artists can reap huge profits while avoiding the stigma of listing very high prices; press releases for Bon Jovi?s concerts, for example, give a top price of $150.

Many in the concert industry still worry that high prices and the conspicuous segregation of crowds into the have-lots and have-somes could backfire.

?These aren?t just customers,? said Dan Berkowitz, the founder of CID Entertainment, which organizes V.I.P. programs for Bonnaroo, Coachella and other festivals. ?They are fans who have an emotional attachment to that artist. So if all of a sudden the artist says, ?You can?t get close to me unless you?ve got $1,400,? they?re going to lose people.?

V.I.P. packages are not available on every tour, but the number of acts that avoid them altogether is dwindling. The most prominent is Bruce Springsteen, whose tour last year had a maximum ticket price of $98. In concert he been known to praise theaters that do not have special V.I.P. boxes.

Jon Landau, Mr. Springsteen?s longtime manager, said he had no plans to add V.I.P. packages for future tours. But he said they are likely to be part of the overall concert landscape for a long time.

?If you call something deluxe, if you call something unique,? Mr. Landau said, ?this is America ? someone will buy it.?

I go to concerts to hear the music, watch the performance and have a great time. That experience is all I need, not the chair, the autograph, lock of hair, etc.

You guys should no better than to go against Axl or just simply say that you disagree.  There is none of that here.  You either suck Axl's dick, or you shut up!   ::)

Well, I want to be able to read both sides of the arguement before I say too much more. The Papers lodged by Azoff would surely make for interesting reading, It seems they were lodged in the Superior Court of California,
which can be searched here: https://www.lasuperiorcourt.org/onlineservices/civilimages/index.asp

(Posted Friday, March 26) "On Thursday, Front Line filed a lawsuit in L.A. County Superior Court, claiming that Rose and GNR owe the company more than $1.8 million under their management agreement.  The suit also asks for a full accounting of Rose to determine what other funds Front Line might be owed."

I'd do it myself, but it seems you must be a U.S citizen to sign up there  :-\

shit jury trial... good luck finding an impartial jury.. lets hope they are GNR fans!

the truth always lies somewhere in the middle...I think it will settle or both parties will simply voluntarily dismiss their cases. :P

the truth does not always lie somewhere in the middle.. let's play with that logic.. if someone says that i'm gay and i respond that "no, i'm straight", if the truth would be somewhere in the middle then i'd be bisexual

sorry, does not work that way :P

the truth does not always lie somewhere in the middle.. let's play with that logic.. if someone says that i'm gay and i respond that "no, i'm straight", if the truth would be somewhere in the middle then i'd be bisexual

sorry, does not work that way :P

I can't wait till Axl wins if Irving keeps shit like that up he will end up in contept of court.
Just want it to end so we can get back to the music like I am sure Axl wants.





Joe

I looked at the case summary at the L.A. County Superior Court site and it looks to me anyway, to be pretty standard stuff at this point.  There have been some documents filed and there is a future hearing set for the middle of July.

I saw a "demand for jury trial" -- that could be very interesting. :yes:

axl countersuit is vague legally thats the problem..

axl countersuit is vague legally thats the problem..

[quote ]

Just wanted to say that a "Demand for jury trial" is absolutely standard. If you do'nt ask for it, you automatically lose the right to have one. In fact, if you ever see a lawsuit that does not have it listed, then you know the lawyer is a dumbass. A jury trial is a right you always want in your back pocket just in case.  Also, most lawsuits (roughly 90 percent) are settled out of court, typically through arbitration or medication, so I suspect that is what will happen here. Plus, it usually allows the terms of the settlement to remain secret, since it's not out in the public eye. Trials are required to be public.

Vary true I just want to see the ducker fry already  :hihi:
He is such a dick I hope he loses everything!!!
It's always managers that fuck things up in the most anoying way right?





Joe

And where did you attend Law School? Matchbook University? 

C'mon you guys, everybody knows that with the right jury you can either prove or disprove the existence of God...this is just my opinion, but based on Azoff's behavior and attitude, I would say he filed suit just to spite Axl for not being open to or agreeing to a $100 million (est.) Old Guns tour.  Axl sueing for $5 mil is just the 'return to sender' by a guy who just got sucker punched by a pussy, and is still standing.  Think about it - these "music industry moguls" do nothing, 'produce' nothing, they are middle men (and sometimes investors) who take a disproportionate cut...and now on top of that you have your Ticketmaster, with all their fees, 'taxing' the live performances.  Leaches.  I hope Axl gets his day in court, and spanks this con-man.

^ Way too much, huh?

You said it all. This is exactly how those guys works.

yeah i went to legal school here in my country and also won a scholarship in law philosophy in boston college
at keast im not a red neck living in the middle of nowhere in iceville canada... like you

California is in DEBT so badly that courtrooms aren't going to take bullshit and cases aren't going to go for weeks because it's too expensive.

So both parties better have strong arguments or not go at all.

Also, if axl wants to go on with this, he should be able to prove Irving had bad intentions.

Axl is used to courtrooms and may not be taken seriously, therefore, EVERY argument put before the judge has to have solid foundations and each has to be PROVED.

Because should there be a slight doubt in the judge's mind, the case's advantage will turn around and then, Azzoff demands compensation.

Right.

That sir , is a very ignorant comment. When I say ignorant.. I mean rude and uninformed.  We have four seasons , just like you americans. Yes , for 2-4 months a year we wear shorts and t -shirts too. It's crazy how stupid some people are

no offense but california's debt isn't going to factor into a decision. It's not like the state is prosecuting anyone. this is a civil suit filed by private attorneys. yes, a taxpyaer funded judge would hear the case, but that person has to show up to work anyway. and since most cases do not make it to trial the judge probably doesn't have a whole lot to hear.

from " all about civil claims"

Who can start a civil action?

Anyone can start a civil action in the state of California and other jurisdictions so long as they are not a plaintiff who continually files lawsuits that are deemed to be frivolous by courts. Once a plaintiff has done this over and over and over again, and is deemed to have been too litigious, those would be the only people who could not file a civil action. As a general proposition, you still are going to have to state a claim upon which relief can be granted in your court complaint. If you cannot do so, the court may dismiss your complaint on its own motion or by motion of the person whom you have filed the civil action against.


http://www.attorneygeneral.jus.gov.on.ca/english/about/pubs/cjr/firstreport/cost.asp

The Cost of the Civil Justice System

CHAPTER 11


11.1 Cost and Value of Justice
Justice is such a fine thing that we cannot pay too dearly for it.

?Alain Rene Lesage
The civil justice system costs money.

The "cost" of civil justice accordingly has different faces. Government ? and therefore the public in its taxpaying capacity ? shoulders a major portion of the cost. Litigants, who are at the same time taxpayers, also shoulder an additional cost of the civil justice system. There are institutional or systemic costs on the one hand and user costs in the form of legal fees and administration, on the other hand.

How does one go about assessing these various costs and their impact in order to determine what value the public and litigants are receiving for their money? Are these costs in keeping with an effective, efficient and accessible civil justice system?

These questions are very difficult to answer, partly because very little study has previously been given to them. Having some concept or definition of what the true value of civil justice is to the province and its citizens in this sense, however, could be a useful guide to any assessment of the degree to which that value is actually achieved. No such concept or definition exists at the present time, as far as we have been able to determine.

We do not refer to value in this context in the sense of the qualities of worthiness of the system, but rather in the sense of what might be described in an investment analogy as a return on one's money. Are the public and litigants getting the best return on their investment and expenditure on civil justice? In our consultations with the public the overwhelming answer to that quest ion was "No". To a lesser extent, the Bar expressed a similar sentiment.

One can catalogue the obvious reasons easily. Most litigants simply want to have their disputes resolved quickly and cheaply, and to move on with their lives. Delays in proceedings are legion, however, and their associated costs enormous. Cost and delay are the twin enemies of the civil justice system ( I IMAGINE IT IS NOT WASTING A JUDGE'S TIME OR TAXPAYER'S MONEY.
Old Guns, I suggest you stop thinking you're clever.

Old Fan.

uh, not sure why those sad face icons popped up in my last post. didn't mean to throw them in.

Things appear to be moving forward -- and this could get interesting.

Future Hearings

10/08/2010 at 09:00 am in department 16 at 111 North Hill Street, Los Angeles, CA 90012
Motion for Protective Order (2) MOTION TO COMPEL DEPOSITION OF IRVING AZOFF.)

02/25/2011 at 08:45 am in department 16 at 111 North Hill Street, Los Angeles, CA 90012
Conference-Post Mediation Status

04/15/2011 at 09:00 am in department 16 at 111 North Hill Street, Los Angeles, CA 90012
Final Status Conference

04/26/2011 at 09:30 am in department 16 at 111 North Hill Street, Los Angeles, CA 90012
Jury Trial

So am I correct in saying that Axl's called Azoff's bluff and is awaiting documents that "prove" Azoff's claim?

My understanding anyway -- he's calling Azoff's bluff but they're not waiting for documents, but rather Azoff's deposition.  A deposition is defined as...

The sworn testimony of a witness taken before trial held out of court with no judge present. The witness is placed under oath to tell the truth and lawyers for each party may ask questions. The questions and answers are recorded. When a person is unavailable to testify at trial, the deposition of that person may be used. Part of the pre-trial discovery (fact-finding) process.

Before it is taken, the witness ought to be sworn or affirmed to declare the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Is Axl's side also looking for a restraining order against Azoff too? "Motion for Protective Order" or am I taking that out of context?

That's what I took it to be as well. Is Axl's side also looking for a restraining order against Azoff too? "Motion for Protective Order" or am I taking that out of context?

GUNS N' ROSES' Former Manager Responds To AXL ROSE's Legal Claim - Oct. 14, 2010

According to The Hollywood Reporter, Irving Azoff's Front Line Management, which once represented GUNS N' ROSES, has filed an official answer to a countersuit brought against the company by GN'R singer Axl Rose.

Rose was sued by Front Line Management in March for nearly $2 million dollars in unpaid commissions, according to the Associated Press. The company filed a lawsuit in Los Angeles, claiming that Rose owes the company $1.9 million, or 15 percent of the more than $12 million that Rose has earned from performances in Europe, Canada and South America, based on an oral agreement.

Rose responded by filing a countersuit that claimed Azoff tried to bully Rose into doing a reunion tour with the original GUNS lineup. According to The Pulse of Radio, Rose claimed in his suit that Azoff did everything he could to sabotage the current version of GUNS after Rose said no to the reunion idea last year, alleging that Azoff tried "devising and implementing a secret plan to set up Rose and the band for failure so that Rose would have no choice but to reunite with the original GUNS N' ROSES members."

Rose's suit added, "Upon realizing that he couldn't bully Rose and accomplish his scheme, Azoff resigned and abandoned GUNS N' ROSES on the eve of a major tour, filing suit for commissions he didn't earn and had no right to receive."

Earlier this month Azoff filed an official answer to Rose's charges by asserting 14 affirmative defenses to Rose's claims he breached fiduciary duty, committed constructive fraud and breached a contract. According to The Hollywood Reporter, Azoff states in his response that Rose claims "are barred by statute of limitations; there was a waiver; There was an accord and satisfaction; that Rose consented to Azoff's actions; that Rose failed to take reasonable steps to mitigate the damage; and that any harm that came to Rose was due to the singer's own negligence, fraud or misconduct."

http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=147693

Any way we can see the actual papers Azoff filed?

If someone went to the court house where they were filed - they're public record.  Typically costs 25 cents a page to copy, or if you convince someone to fax them to you - which isn't likely because they're probably busy - then they're usually free.

Usually they are posted online somewhere (I've read Axl's claim and Irvings initial claim someplace but I can't remember where right now).

Here's Axl's lawsuit -- and I saw Azoff's somewhere as well.  If I can find it again, I'll post it.

http://images.eonline.com/static/news/pdf/axlrose.pdf

in Irv's defense, Albums are all about hit singles. If an album doesn't have a hit.. there really isn't much he can do. Christina had no hits from what i gather

Chinese Democracy was an old school album.. meaning u listen to each track but it really didn't have that lightning in a bottle smash radio friendly single that radio stations play today. *yes that is a good thing* but singles drive album sales these days.

in Irv's defense, Albums are all about hit singles. If an album doesn't have a hit.. there really isn't much he can do. Christina had no hits from what i gather

Chinese Democracy was an old school album.. meaning u listen to each track but it really didn't have that lightning in a bottle smash radio friendly single that radio stations play today. *yes that is a good thing* but singles drive album sales these days.

in Irv's defense, Albums are all about hit singles. If an album doesn't have a hit.. there really isn't much he can do. Christina had no hits from what i gather

Chinese Democracy was an old school album.. meaning u listen to each track but it really didn't have that lightning in a bottle smash radio friendly single that radio stations play today. *yes that is a good thing* but singles drive album sales these days.

the good part of this story is, if Azoff failed to break Guns N'Roses, nobody can.

Not sure what all the issues have been over the years, maybe we'll hear Axl's version in a book one day....but man, the band certainly has been mismanaged, or struggled with finding and retaining solid management.

(http://www.mypictureshare.com/img/g/P.gif)

Bad management is the only thing stopping this band from taking over the world!

Reading through the article it seems as if Azoff has tried to settle but Axl wants to go ahead Axl must feel like he has a very strong case i think it`s going to get interesting

During a brief hearing before Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Rita Miller, the lawyers for Rose and Irving Azoff said they plan to meet with the mediator, a retired judge, on April 25. Trial is scheduled the next day.

Funky didn't include the last part of the article (I just read it now). However, seems to me like typical lawyer-talk where each side are blaming one another.

I don't know what happen with Merck.  I always thought he was some what of a used car salesman but I liked the guy.  I'd be happy to see them try again with him.

As for Azoff, it was more the guy is a shark but he does make money but if you have to prostitute yourself might as well have a good pimp.  :D

Settlement Efforts Between Axl Rose And Former Manager Hit Sour Note

During a brief hearing before Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Rita Miller, the lawyers for Rose and Irving Azoff said they plan to meet with the mediator, a retired judge, on April 25. Trial is scheduled the next day.

I thought Axl legally changed in his name.  In any event, why would they refer to him as both William and Bill "WILLIAM BILL BAILEY ET AL"?

Maybe W. AXL ROSE Name For GN'R Artist - WILLIAM BILL BAILEY Personal, No Problems Whit Band.

I believe W. Axl Rose is his legal name. When he gets his monthly bills, they would be labeled with that name - both personal and artistic.

Not sure why it would say Bill Bailey then... It was mentioned something about it in the countersuit, Azoff had used that particular name fully conscious of Axl's feelings for it.

^^ what does it mean ? does it mean he has a case and they can go ahead?

In the United States, the availability of ex parte orders or decrees from both federal and state courts is sharply limited by the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments, which provide that a person shall not be deprived of any interest in liberty or property without due process of law. In practice this has been interpreted to require adequate notice of the request for judicial relief and an opportunity to be heard concerning the merits of such relief. A court order issued on the basis of an ex parte proceeding, therefore, will necessarily be temporary and interim in nature, and the person(s) affected by the order must be given an opportunity to contest the appropriateness of the order before it can be made permanent.

Did you know that Eazy E's manager Jerry Heller gave Irving Azoff his first job. And Mr Heller says in his book RUTHLESS that the Randy Newman song SHORT PEOPLE  was supposedly written about Azoff. Wouldn't it be funny to hear that song played in Rock in Rio? :hihi:

no news ta say till the court date,and when is that ?

Good luck Axl.. fkn go for it!  i hope there are other musicians/bands taking note of what Axl is standing up for here, GnR cant be the only ones that Azoff have burnt along the way.

Settlements Reached In Lawsuits Between Axl Rose And Former Manager

http://www.bhcourier.com/article/Local/Local/Settlements_Reached_In_Lawsuits_Between_Axl_Rose_And_Former_Manager/76718

I like this...


"No terms were divulged. But after a preliminary accord was reached, lawyers for Rose filed papers stating that the final accord would involve "a comprehensive touring agreement in which Guns 'N Roses would perform at various...venues."

I like this...

"No terms were divulged. But after a preliminary accord was reached, lawyers for Rose filed papers stating that the final accord would involve "a comprehensive touring agreement in which Guns 'N Roses would perform at various...venues."

So the band still has to tour for Azoff?

Yup.

So the band still has to tour for Azoff?

Not for Azoff himself, per se.  They have to have the backing of his company to mount any significant US tour.  That's why the DOJ challenged the Live Nation-Ticketmaster merger on grounds it would create a merger.

Ali

Exactly.  I'm pretty sure one of the biggest fears (from the band) concerning this lawsuit was Azoff's ability to "blackball" them out of most of the major arenas in the US (and the major ticket seller).  I'm confident they would have made sure there was language in the settlement that would preclued Azoff from being able to do that...especially if they "won".

Maybe they were using a US tour as a bargaining chip too. I don't like Azoff controlling Live Nation but I did think he had a reasonable argument over these commissions owed.

Well...

SUDAMERICAN TOUR / MEXICO TOUR / USA TOUR

 :beer:

It's a shame that they reached a settlement.... I really wanted Azoff to get his ass handed to him in court and have his stranglehold on the music industry weakened.

It's a shame that they reached a settlement.... I really wanted Azoff to get his ass handed to him in court and have his stranglehold on the music industry weakened.

No it's not a shame actually. If this went to court it would have dragged out forever. And don't think that just because they had a hearing schedule it wouldn't have been postponed. These things take years. It's good they settled, so they can get on with their business and the fans can watch them tour. Also, do'nt be so sure Axl would have won. Juries are made up of fools who can't figure out how to get out of jury duty.

we  can speculate all day over what would have happened, or what the issue was regarding touring the U.S., but it's all just specuation. all that matters is this...

"lawyers for Rose filed papers stating that the final accord would involve "a comprehensive touring agreement in which Guns 'N Roses would perform at various...venues.""

awesome news!  :beer:

i'm not 100% sure what that means, but it appears there will soon be an agreement in place for GnR to tour the U.S. and again, i could be wrong, but i am assuming this is the MAJOR step (or hurdle) that had not been reached in the last 4 years, and the rest of the planning for a U.S. tour involves the relatively "easy" steps.

keeping my freakin fingers crossed!  : ok:

Don't get me wrong... it's good for Guns N' Roses. But personally, I feel the future of the entire industry is more important than the future of just one band. I was glad to see someone stand up to him, and it would have been a good time for other artists who are equally as unimpressed with the situation actually step up and do something about it. Axl might not have won, but if he did it would've been so much fun to see, and could have gone some way to saving the industry and securing rights for artists and consumers alike. Settling out of court means GN'R can get on with business, but it's not a good thing in the big picture.

I would think that they will settle at some point in time, as most lawsuits do.
When you compare complaints, they both look pretty thin and the damages will largely offset.
Azoff may have a hard time proving that he did sufficient work to earn his commissions for the tour, and Axl will have a very hard time (from a legal perspective) showing lost profits in lower record sales based on Azoff not marketing / promoting enough.  Lost profits are hard to prove because you have to eliminate so many other confounding variables, like the record selling climate etc.  You basically have to establish a factual state of affairs that never existed.

So, in spite of whatever bitterness these guys have against each other, I bet at some point the attorneys for each side will basically tell their clients, "look, this is a wash and will cost you a lot of money to litigate."  Azoff will walk away from his commissions and Axl walks away from the lost profits.

Or maybe not .....