Here Today... Gone To Hell!

I was down in Madison last weekend, and stopped in at the Exclusive Company. They had a copy of Chineese Democracy that was opened, and had the same problems as the one I got before. Anyways, they had this also, and it made me think how cool it would be if the GNR catalog, or at least CD would be released like this.  ;D http://eil.com/shop/moreinfo.asp?catalogid=439133&from=GBUS

speaking of the vinyl. Does anyone know if there are any good copies in the US? Even if you get one without all the scratches and marks, are the songs still distorted?

I ask because I was at a Best Buy the other day and they had plenty of vinyl on the shelf. If I knew that one without all the scratches would sound undistorted, I'd gladly buy another copy. Plus I'd have the bonus of making a Best Buy employee lift a finger and open a couple copies until I found one without marks.

I just realized, that the vinyl edition (mine anyway) is 180-200 grams.

Is that standard? And is it standard now - all new vinyl releases come out on 'heavier' vinyl than in the old, vinyl days?

Yeah 180 is pretty much standard these days. It's truly a shame that not one person involved with CD has done anything to rectify the terrible vinyl issues.

I have the vinyl edition of ChiDem... but I only got to play it on an extremely old record player and it sounded awful... but I figured it was the record player.  so you're saying that there problems with many of the vinyl records that were released?  Is there a refund/exchange program ?

im in UK but not played my vinyl yet. is it just the U.S versions that sucked or all of them?

There's no way to get any information on if all the US ones are terrible or not. There was some hint of hope for a while but that seemed to all go away. If I knew that I could get one that didn't sound like shit on the inner songs, I'd gladly buy it again.

I think everybody who needs to be aware of the issues are aware of them.

We can only hope that the vinyl edition will get a proper release in the future.




/jarmo

Seemingly all of them. My vinyl was unscratched, unmarked, sounded like utter shit just as described by others, and as a nice little extra kick in the balls, the European edition has no Free MP3 album promo code. Unless you're getting it as a display item, avoid.

Damn. I was really hoping someone could confirm that the Euro pressings at least sounded better. I'd gladly pay to import it if I knew for sure it at least sounded good.

Perhaps we should ask Bach where he got his, sice he claimed it sounded so damn good. Perhaps he was just stoned as fuck? Then again, so was I when I played my copy, and it didn't help a bit.  :'(

Some tracks did sound awesome. Case in point- Better. I try to listen to that vinyl as much as possible because of that track alone. However SoD is so bad I cannot stand it.

the first time i listened i only noticed problems with RATB. everything else sounded great. i haven't listened to it in months though, and now that i am TOTALLY familiar with all the songs, i'll have to give it another listen and compare.

did most people notice issues with several songs???

are there any US versions out there where people have noticed issues on only one or two songs?
 

I'll know soon enough - as my record player arrives next week.

As far as I've been told (and learned here through this thread and others), it's only an issue on the last songs on every side (inner groove distortion).

Can't wait - regardless!  :peace:

VINYL!   8)

Does you copy have all the scuffs and stuff on it? I've heard that either way, the inner songs sound horrible but I'm just curious.

Scuffs and stuff?

The albums look as they are - brand new. No smudging, no nothing.

There was no free digital download BTW. But that's not a given with every vinyl. But I believe this will be addressed in general terms soon. Notice how the late talk shows in the US (Letterman, now Conan) hold up vinyl covers when introducing bands  8)

I'm sure this will be commented on soon enough. Saw it with Chickenfoot and saw it with Phoenix.

As for CD; I'm curious now about that "inner groove distortion" issue.

I sincerely hope yours isn't cursed with it. Did you get yours in the US? If not, I may go ahead, roll the dice and import one.

Russ, I'll get back to you on this.

Getting my vinyl player on Tuesday, will set it up and blast some Chinese Democracy, Led Zeppelin II and .. to begin with now... my original Thriller vinyl LP from 1983. 

RIP, moonwalker!  :-[

My CD is bought in Denmark.  Jarmo (and others) have already reported in, that the albums bought here in Europe haven't suffered from the scratches, marks and bludges. But inner groove distortion is an issue still. Unfortunately.

I'll get back to you.

 :)

I wonder if they could've just postponed the vinyl release a few weeks in order to fix the issues....

It's not like the whole release was gonna be postponed.

Maybe it wasn't possible to fix it since it was a double album and the fix might've required them to make it a triple?



/jarmo

Maybe so. In the end I'm happy to have it on vinyl because it'll mostly hang on the wall anyways. But when I listened to it I was blown away by how much better I really thought it sounded so I was disappointed when the inner songs sounded terrible.

I think your right on both ends.  It is somewhat common for the vinyl version of some new albums to come out on a later date, no big deal. 

But in CD's case I think the only sure fire way to fix the issue is/was to make it 3LPs, but it was probably to late in the process for that to be pheasable.  Makes you wonder if anyone at the record company actually listened to a test pressing before they gave the ok to press the whole lot.

Well, got my player and have it set up. Packed out all my old vinyl, from Michael Jackson to Springsteen, Sabbath to Zep, and now ofcourse Chinese Democracy...

 : ok:

Here's the thing: I have a semi-serious set-up. An Onkyo SR606 amp (critical darling), Atlantic Tech front and center speakers and subwoof, with Eltac back speakers and now a Pro-Ject Debut III record vinyl player.

And it (Chinese) sounds .... GREAT!!  8)

The album is in the std. packaging, with the records themselves being 180 gram vinyl and in black glossy covers. From what I've heard so far, the sound is terrific. It's fat and warm. I can't say it's better than the compact disc version, because you probably won't find any better mastered/produced album around.. at all. Seriously.

But it sounds terrific and I'm going to really dig in over the next weeks. Vinyls can be fickle: I also got the latest Black Crowes (Warpaint) and it's also 180 gram - but a picture disc! The packaging and everything is ace, top notch, but I'm hearing major groove dirt on all the cuts. Even after having wiped it (the record) down repeatedly! Bummer.

As for Chinese and inner groove distortion; I'll check back when I've given it some more spins.



(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff236/drvenkman2007/04072009206.jpg)


(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff236/drvenkman2007/06072009214q.jpg)



 

 

^^^^^^
That's a nice turntable you have.  What kind of cartridge are you using?  I think your setup should reduce the inner groove distortion quite a bit.  I am currently running a technics sl1200 mk5 with a AT 440mla stylus, and it does wonders for the IGD.

 

Yeah, I'm thinking the same thing.

Have been BLASTING Miles Davis' Kind of Blue and Sketches from Spain - both on 200 gram vinyl - all day, and the sound is warm, fuzzy, deep and wide. My audio setup is really good. However, I bought it all throwing my money in the face of someone who knows his hi-fi - I went in pretty much blindfolded!

Same for the cartridge.. I have no idea. It's what the shop recommended. They're pretty savvy, so it's probably top of the line. I know I paid plenty!

I must say; Chinese Democracy sounds great. I can't wait to really stretch its legs!

 8)


 

Okay. So now having been hearing Chinese Democracy on vinyl (bought in Europe) for the past couple of weeks on my new set-up (see above posts) I must say... I can't locate any inner groove distortion?

Even for I.R.S. which has a slight metallic sheen of sorts to it and is the last song on side 3.... nothing.

The sound on vinyl (180 gram standard) is thick and vibrant and maybe not as 'clarified' as on digital (compact disc) - but easily a warmer sound than on compact disc. Maybe it's because of the fantastic production and mastering job, I don't know. But it sounds absolutely terrific.

For me, the title song and TWAT really "jump out" at you. Maybe they all do, but I've been playing the latter all day while doing stuff around the house.

 8)

 

This is good news overall I guess. Now I just gotta bite the bullet and find out how much it'll cost me to get one imported to the US.

Here you go:

http://www.imusic.dk/item/0000001574711/guns-n-roses-2008-chinese-democracy-lp

 8)

Thanks so much. Any clue what that'll run me USD with shipping?

It doesn't say, but shipping costs will be shown when you sign in and put an order through. International shipments are available at that site. Shouldn' be too much; probably around 10$.

 8)

What type of turntable set up do you have?  I honestly think that if it is not a similar set up in quality as Rainfox's, you are more than likely going to experience the same IGD issues as the US pressing.

Oh. Good call. I just have a run of the mill Sony turntable. I didn't even think about that. Thanks for the heads up.

How much is DKK 269,95? lol :P

5 Danish kroner is approx. 1 US dollar.

 

Got my EU version of the vinyl in the mail today, and I must say it's pristine. Haven't played it yet, but after my problems with the US one, I'm glad there's a good pressing of it out there! : ok:

That's great, Moonlight.

Let me/us all know how it works out!

 :)

Well, it's like they say. There is some inner groove distortion, but considering I own a second hand $100 Radio Shack turntable, it's totally acceptable. The album sounds fucking awesome, btw. I just wish I could crank it, but alas we are living the apartment life. Once we get a house, I'll invest a chunk of dough in a decent set up. Playing this majestic monster at a high volume level will definitely be an experience I look forward to. I did crank the beginning of Better before the kick in just to see, and it was nice! I'll just have to settle for rocking car rides in the meantime, as I also just bought the Japanese SHM CD. Anyways. I 'm happy my dreams of owning a decent copy of CD on vinyl are now a reality. Woohoo!

Oh cool! Can you give a review on the difference between the regular CD and the SHM version when you get a chance? I may just order that instead of putting more money into the vinyl if there's a big enough difference.

Yeah, no problem. I was gonna do a blind test anyways. I'll post the outcome in a day or so. From what I've read, there's a SHM debate because of the CD coating supposedly, technically not being a factor in how a disc should sound. My Best Buy copy is pretty beat anyways, so I figured why not order it? Can't really hurt to have a back up. Listening to "Catcher" right now.  ;D

It would be great I think but with a different backround

I'm all for vinyl because while cds are convenient, and mp3 and ipods are even more so, you're really not getting the whole sound as you should, that much we all know. However, analog went out almost 20 years ago, everything's been recorded digitally since, unless you see the sticker that says "remastered from the original analog masters". Even if you see that advertised that on a cd today, you're still not hearing the recording as you should, because the analog has been compressed onto a cd, some quality is lost. Remember this before they totally went digital, "We've used the original analog recordings and have tried to preserve as much of it as possible, but there are some limitations". This was printed on some of those earlier pressed cds that some of us may still own. Then they totally went digital, and it's been a proven fact the more recent years that digital recordings clip, they're mixed way too loud, and they don't sound near as well as analog did, hence the recent revival of vinyl....but here's my question, how are these new albums and even reissues of 20 year old albums coming out any different from a cd? Everything's digital right? No more analog right? So how does a digital recording sound any better on vinyl than a cd?????

Because analog playback in itself also plays a factor in the sound.   An example I can give is cassette tapes....they are both analog in recording and analog in playback, but the analog playback method of cassette tapes is substandard in sound compared to vinyl. Just because something is analog/analog, does not automatically make it sound better. Vinyl that has a digital recording source is going to sound better than a cassette tape that has an analog recording source.

You still can achieve the vinyl warmth and nuance even from a recording that was originally digital.  For instance, I think Chinese Democracy sounds better on vinyl (sans the tracks that suffer from IGD) than compact disc.

But I do agree that true analog recordings on vinyl sound the best, a bit better than vinyl from a digital recording.  Although some other vinyl buffs would tell you anything from a digital recording source is crap.  I don't go that far. 

Ok cool. Looking forward to your review.

Cool, Moonlight!

And some great input by everyone.

I've recently "re-started" my vinyl collection and I'm now positively getting all new albums on vinyl (if there's a free download; for my iPod and for burning a CD for the car), because it just DOES sound better. I didn't think it did - I knew that original old recordings did, but not necessarily THAT much. But they do. It's a world of difference on a good audio set-up.

I've gotten some of the old 60s and 70s (and 80s) classics on new, freshly pressed 180 or 200 gram vinyl too. Sabbath, Zeppelin, Springsteen, Doors, Hendrix, Appetite/UYI etc. and as of yesterday.. Cream! They sound absolutely fantastic. Got their first three albums. Funds are low now, but it was well worth it!

 8)

PS: Looking forward to hearing how the SHM compares.

I don't want to pull rank here or anything, but I've been studying audio signal processing for about 5-7 years now at a university, and I can pretty much assure you that well over half of the LPs are better talk is simply bullshit. Especially the part that analog is far superior than digital as a storage form. Sure it sounds different, and some LPs might sound more "warm" or "natural", but to say that they are objectively better, is usually just plain wrong.

This is not to say that LPs suck... They don't. They're really nice, and I enjoy to have an actual good size record with nice covers, but I'm not going to go as far as saying that they're objectively better to the human ear.

And as for the SHM:s.. Well. Your cd-player either reads the bit or it doesn't. I have yet to hear a SHM that would actually sound better than a new well kept CD with no scratches.

They very much sound warmer and more natural to me.

Skeba -  I don't think the issue was "better" or "worse".

But warmer, richer and more intimate (yes, indeed). Pick up an album from before the digital age, and it's plain obvious. Even to the un-trained ear (like myself!).

Ofcourse, how the band recorded the album and so forth also plays a huge part. Check out The Black Crowes' Southern Harmony.. which sounds like they are literally playing in the room with you (it was recorded in one-takes).

CDs have more purity and "better" sound in terms of clarity. But for the most part (not all), CDs will sound a bit synthetic to analog.

I understand you and will agree with you to the point that they sound different. But I do think that a lot of this "warmth" could , if wanted, be achieved with CDs as well. A lot of this has to do with noise that is always present with an analog source. Also the preamplifiers of an LP player and a CD player are different and do have their own role. There are other contributing factors as well. But the point is: The CDs sound what they sound like because the artist wanted it to sound like that on the setup that he heard them. These are all matters of opinion an I completely understand someone opting for an LP over a CD...

Audio CDs are limited to 16bit/44.1khz........LPs aint, so there goes the advantage with LPs!
and thats why you can find fans re-capturing from 1st LP pressings (mostly pre-early 90s LPs) transfering them on (semi)high-end equipment to 24bit/192khz for having a digital transfer being much closer to the original LP sound + being higher quality than standard CD audio can be!

in the end it all depends on how the LPs / CDs are being produced! the best solution for Appetite would be: a new high end quality transfer from the original analog masters + new mixing and editing on 2009 equipment releasing it in 24/192 DVD Audio. off course the mixer must know his job and shouldnt ruin this process with crap like the loudness war we've been suffering from the last years!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gmex_4hreQ

that loudness crap happened with the new Metallica album but fortunately didnt happen with Chinese Democracy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRyIACDCc1I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-v6ML2DsBfA


the playback-trouble factor depends on your equipment not the music!

192kHz... So you'd be able to produce frequencies almost 5 times higher than a human ear can even hear?? I'm not saying that with 24bit encoding some advantage couldn't be achieved on very high end systems but the frequency thing is just ridiculous..

some fans do this because the main goal is getting it digital as close to the original analog source as technique allows to do for consumers.
from that point of view the higher frequencies are just logical, off course its some weird with those high frequencies for human ears. but theoretical you're getting more info out of the analog signal than doing it in 44.1khz/48khz, what your ears are making out of it is secondary in this case.
also there are some LP rips in 44.1khz sounding better than the original CD release!

Well, yeah.. If a fan wants to spend over 4 times more space and computation time to save sounds by aliens from analog recordings I guess it's ok. For digital recordings it's even absolutely useless since all of the recording has been done with sampling rates of 44, 48 and at max 96khz... The digital LP rips sound 'better' because of the reasons stated in my previous posts.

This is well put.  I often get caught up in the "vinyl sounds better" thing, but when people ask me why I think vinyl sounds better I give them the correct answer...vinyl sounds different, and I prefer that sound to that of CD.  Vinyl can be easily customized to the listeners tastes, such as pre-amps as mentioned, cartridges, tonearms, stylus, etc, to create that "vinyl sound" the listener prefers, and even that "sound" is even different between vinyl listeners. For instance, some vinyl listeners actually think snap crack and pop adds something to the music, or they don't mind it. I for one cannot stand that, so I opted for a cartride which reduces, eliminates surface noise, but on the flipside is not a very warm/neutral cartridge.  So then I had to get a very warm souning phono stage to acheive the warmth many people enjoy.  I had to tweak my system with different phono-stages and cartridges for a decent amount of time, and after that trial and error, I finally became "wow'd".  That whole process for me makes the music much more engaging, because I had in hand in creating that sound.

I also never try to convince people to switch formats, because honestly most people can't tell the difference, or if they can tell the diference the difference is not worth the time and money that is vinyl.  Download FLAC for free or pay $30 for an LP?  Cheap CD players are going to sound pretty good....a cheap turntable is going to sound like ass.         

Isn't that the sampling frequency/sampling rate?

Not a reference to the actual frequency range the human ear can hear.



And how many people listen to their high quality rips on those cheap white iPod headphones? ;)



/jarmo

Ha ha. Yeah.

I got some neat Harman Kardon plugs for my iPod. Had to get one with a wrangle around my ear as I use it (only) for jogging. The sound is much better than the std. ones in the pack.

Guilty as charged.  :) But then again all the others I have tried seem to break within couple of weeks. Tired of experimenting really..

Yes, it is the sampling rate. And the sampling rate determins the frequencies that can be produced. The Nyqvist theorem states that in order to produce a frequency of x Hz, the sampling frequency has to be 2x Hz. So with 192kHz you can produce frequencies up to 96kHz. Now as the hearing range for humans is about 20Hz-20kHz, there is a lot of information on the area that is not relevant to the human ear. CDs have a sampling frequency of 44kHz for this very reason.

I thought a a better sampling frequency would give a better representation of the actual signal.

Not just higher frequencies nobody can hear.




/jarmo

not really... Adding bits though can give a better signal as there are more possible values to represent the original signal.

If you sample the outside temperature once a day, you don't get a fair representation of the day's weather compared to say sampling it 24 times per day....  ???

Same for audio. The more samples you take from a signal, the better representation of the actual analog signal you get instead of missing information "between" the samples.

That was my impression of what sampling rate means....

 ???


/jarmo

The weather example is valid, but it can not be applied to audio. Any sound at any point can be viewed as weighed sum of sine waves. To generate a sinewave, a sampling rate of two times higher than the highest frequency is required (Nyqvist frequency). If not, the frequencies over the Nyqvist frequency will overlap on the lower frequencies. For example 24kHz sound with a 44kHz sampling frequency would fold on to 44kHz/2-(24kHz-44kHz/2) = 20kHz. No extra gain from a larger sampling frequency than 44kHz is attained in listening applications.

For some reason I had this kind of pic in my head: http://www.jiscdigitalmedia.ac.uk/images/ITDA-03-aliasing.jpg

You know, the more samples you take, the better the "digital curve" will be... If you just connect the dots, you won't get a proper waveform....

But it's been a while since I was this geeky.... :hihi:




/jarmo

Slightly off topic, but my dogs don't like Shacklers Revenge, soon as it comes on they're gone, but not on any other track (GnR or other) This frequence talk and non-audiable to human levels, got me wondering if there's a noise/pitch whatever that they don't like. And its like from the very first second, they just get up and leave....freeky

Jarmo. That's exactly it... For the player, it is not necessary to have the actual full waveform. All it needs is enough information so that it can present every component of the signal: the frequencies, and their amplitudes. The picture shows really well what's going on. As the sampling rate is so low, the decoder doesn't get enough information to produce the original signal. Instead, what it sees is the lower picture.