Here Today... Gone To Hell!

Posted this on another site, wanted more opinions

I've often wondered about this. In my opinion, if Axl had hired Buckethead in 1997 as opposed to 2000, and had not hired Robin at all, I believe that CD would've been out by 2000 at the latest

Regardless of what is said, I don't think Axl ever fully believed that Robin had the chops to be THE MAN in GNR. He was not good enough to match Slash.  Bucket really was that good.  Robin quit and came back, but when he came back, Bucket had joined. Yet I get the impression that, out of some sense of friendship/loyalty Axl tried to shoehorn Robin back in there. In turn, Bucket probably got tired of playing with a "co-lead" guitarist who wasn't fit to hold his guitar strap

I still think that if Axl had written his Prostitute/TWAT/IRS/Blues back in 1997 or 1998 (when he actually wrote them) and Bucket had brought his stuff to the table, they would've had a much more acceptable GNR album in 1999 that would've been released.  In my opinion, Robin just didn't have what it takes to be THE GUY in GNR. Bucket did, but he was limited by what had already been done

Don't get me wrong, I love a lot of the stuff Robin did on CD. But I think it would've been better if Robin had been brought in as a supporting member rather than as a lead man. He was never cut out for it and quite frankly not good enough. He has a unique style and is creative but to be the lead guitarist in GNR that's not good enough

Honestly...I truly don't understand why the fan base always feels compelled to over analyze what would have been better for this and that, and who is more suitable...

they're both great guitar players, with a solid reputation in the industry as to their ability, and i would say that we should trust Axl when it comes to choosing the musicians he wishes to work with...he seems to know better than us as to who is more suited to which song...as the album clearly shows...

after all, if it wasn't for Axl....90% of us wouldn't have even known who Robin or Buckethead are to begin with...

its all iffs and buts, farts and spluts  :) :)

Does Robin have any writing credits prior to CD? Was he just a touring guitarist in NIN, or did he play on any studio albums? Regardless he was great on tour and great on CD!!

True, but argueably the "best" song on CD is "Better," and if Robin came after Bucket, would that song have even been written?  "Shackler's Revenge" was also quite likely written after 99 (Bucket wasn't using a whammy pedal until after 2000, from what I recall), so would that song have made it on the album if they released it around the time End of Days came out?

It's also possible we would have ended up with a bunch of IRS, Rhiad, Chinese Democracy, Oh My God, and Silk Worm-sounding songs (w/ Buck playing lead of course) if it came out in 99.  I may be in the minority, but with the exception of Oh My God; those are some of the weakest songs of the "new GNR" era. 

I think we can all analyze what would have been the best, but I think, with the exception of Bucket leaving, everything turned out the best that one could have hoped under the circumstances.  I'm just happy CD was released, as I honestly thought it was never coming out.

Its all based on your personal taste. I beg to differ, as I prefer any Robin solo over Bucket's ones.

Also, it's all Dead Horse.

As Shackler's has no Paul Tobias, I'd say it came out by 2002 or later.

Riad is the best fucking rock song that came out in many many years to me. I love IRS and Chinese too, so you may be indeed in minority.

I think they compliment each other very well on the album and that's all that matters to me.


I also believe that in a band situation, they might've pushed each other. Kinda like a healthy competition.



/jarmo

^ditto. that's musical chemistry as we call it.


i think this is where you went all wrong.  
according to matt, robin's performance in Cirque du Soleil had axl want robin to be his lead.
I don't think he was looking for slash.

I agree, both players put down some sick guitar parts on the album and I honestly can't imagine Chinese Democracy without either one's contributions.

Robin is the most fantastic guitar player GNR has ever had, Buckethead (a guitarist I deeply admire and love) included. The ''robin is not good enough to match Slash'' is just your perception, but it's nonsense to me. Robin is by far a more versatile and musically open minded guitar player than Slash, and I also think Robin is also technically a more skilled guitarist. They are both incredible performers, two scenical monsters, though

The Robin vs Buckethead comparison is more interesting. Buckethead is techically better than Robin and Slash together, has an incredible creative potential and his mind is even opener than Robin's. Buckethead is the perfect antithesis to Slash: Buckethead wants to reinvent himself album after album, loves to explore new music styles and he's constantlytrying to improve his skills, which are already unbelievable. But scenically, Slash is a monster and Buckethead is a zero. Even though I love him I think his departure made GNR stronger in live performances, scenically talking.

Robin is the perfect guitarist for Guns N' Roses. I hope DJ Ashba the best, though. Robin and Buckethead did the best and most memorable guitar solos, in my opinion, of all GNR career: Robin's solos at TWAT, TIL and SOD / Buckethead solos at TWAT (the best of them all, a masterpiece in its own), Sorry, Protitute and Madagascar.

And just because I cant express it better,

Hi there, it's been a long time since the last time I posted here.

Don't mean to be disrespectful but I think Robin has nothing to offer compared with Buckethead.  Never understood his inclusion on Gn'r,  his style is not for a band like Guns, he belongs to NIN.  Before Chinese was on the stores, I thought he was an important composer, co-writer, but unfortunately he only co-wrote Better.
On the other hand we've got Buckethead who wrote important tunes in Chinese, he is a monster, a brilliant guitar player and I really like his work on Chinese.

Or maybe he means that he is and you simply disagree.

Anyhow, regarding the OP's statement, in alot of ways, I completely agree. It's not that I didn't think Robin could play the guitar, I just never saw anything special about his playing, or anything that made him stand out as being unique. I know of a local bands in my area who have guitarists that can play every bit as good, if not better, than Robin.

While I enjoyed some of Bucket's solos, his freak factor, and the people he drew to those 2002 shows, is what turned me off most about his tenure in the band. When I go to see a GN'R show, I can do without the nun-chuck circus act, and being surrounded by a bunch of bucket wearing individuals. I do enjoy his melodic stuff though, and have recommened his 'Colma' and 'Electric Tears' albums to quite a few who have admitted to really enjoying them.

In a nutshell, I can't say that I was overly bothered by either's departure. But if I had to choose one to come back, I would tolerate Bucket's gimmick just to hear some more of those wild riffs that he was able to produce.

Or maybe slash isn't relevant any more.  definitely not to GNR of today.

Look at the subject.

Think.





/jarmo

Axl already had a important co-writer: Paul Tobias. Robin was brought to contribute with lead guitar, which he did awesome in songs like Street of Dreams, TWAT and This I Love.

All Bucket songs in Chinese has no Paul Tobias, so I think he started to write more when Tobias "left" (even tho I think he's been always around).

So, what people keep bringing about Robin being irrelevant because of only 1 writing credits is pretty non-sense to me.  

About his style.. I don't know, but last time I checked, NIN had no solos like This I Love. If you're talking about his look back in 2001/2, it's better to not even start.

Wow. I thought it was only D who would make such a silly statement about Robin.

Tell me please someone who has such an unique style (I'm talking about the way he plays), tone and lead writing. Post some YouTube vids with all those guys you THINK are as good or better than Robin.

Damn, why the fuck do you think Axl brought him? Because he's friend with Robin? Just to piss Trent off? ::)

What a great fan we have. One who "tolerates" a member and who just don't care about the new album at all.

he prefers adler to any other GNR drummer. maybe he is actually d  :hihi:

Robin is Robin as bh is bh. both are second to none. they compliment each other very well in GNR thanks to axl.

Paul Tobias was involved alot longer than both of them and plays on these songs. It's unfortunate that people seem to dismiss that.  

As far as Bucket vs. Finck goes, I love the Finck solo in "This I Love", but that "There Was A Time" solo is probably my favourite.

with bh solo. the example of the chemistry of GNR comes into its own.

Ok, probably his importance as composer is not important for some people, let's focus on his work as a guitar player, in my opinion he doesn't have the "feeling" to play the old tunes, I must admit his work on Chinese is acceptable, but Gn'r is not a "one album band" they have 5 albums more, and I think it's really important to have a guitarist who can play the old songs as well. I'm not saying Robin can't play those songs, I mean he doesn't have the style.  One small example, Sweet child, he totally ruins the solo, probably some guys won't agree but that's what I think.

I have great expectations on DJ... I wish Bucket was still on the band, it would be an amazing team.

they're both amazing musicians and their work on chinese democracy is proof of that.  but in my mind, they're both disloyal traitors.  once they got what they wanted from axl's genius, they deserted him and stabbed him in the back.  it's a shame such promising guitarists could act like such selfish children.  oh well, hopefully their time with a true genius (axl) will inspire them to make more great music in the future.  not that i'd buy it.

I don't think they are traitors, I believe they were "forced" to leave the band, I mean, who wants to spend so many years inactive!

oh please.  the fact that they abandoned axl is what contributed to the delays and inactivity.  axl didn't force anyone to do anything -- except to make the best music they've ever made or ever will make.  if their way of saying thanks is to take the money and run, then maybe they really weren't cut out to be gnr in the first place.  which is a shame, because they're both very talented. 

I don't think they were Forced to do anything...or turned traitor to GNR.

They aren't bad mouthing axl are they? BH thanked to Axl and the GNR family on the booklet.

you are correct..  and Axl's attitude towards them doesn't seem very hostile and he's said he is open to working with both players again in the future.

Robin had a great opportunity to tour with his old mate Trent and took it up.  I don't think it was anything personal against Axl or his GnR bandmates because I know he has been good friends with some of them.   Buckethead likes to do his own thing and has put out a lot of his own stuff and again I don't think thats anything against the guys in Guns.

Falungong69, I think you take this waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to serious, and, not meaning to be disrespectful at you at all, but sometimes how you express yourself in here is kind of spooky..  People who take their idols to serious, like you do, tend to be the same people who do freaky stuff.. Think: John Lennon, think: Dimebag... I think you should reflect a bit, chill down, and let Axl & co speak for themselves on how they feel, and no matter how they feel, its their personal feelings, and this have absolutly nothing to do with you, me or anybody else.. We are fans of MUSIC, and we need to not let some band drama affect us as much as many of us do, and especially you. Hope you dont take this the wrong way, its just that I care, and hope you'll see my point, if not right now, than hopefully soon. Take care dude!

Tryin to put my bias aside

Bucket's Twat and Sorry solos makes me really sad he wasnt the "Featured" lead player on all of the songs

Bucket not only can play fast but  I give him props on TWAT and Sorry, he played very emotional also.

Would've loved to hear him solo on Catcher and This I Love

I like Bucket more than Robin.

That said, Chinese is nothing without Robin. Period. The very best thing, it seems to me about Axl is his ability to let the different members play to their own strengths. This I Love, to me is an okay song. BUT that Robin solo in the middle is absolutely fucking scorching. The attitude reflected to me in that piece could not be matched by another player, period. This is only one example, and there are many others.  I am sad to see them both go. I've expressed my reservations about Ashba in other threads, so I don't need to get into them here. That said, I'd bet anyone that he and Axl will find a way to make him shine in a way that we haven't seen from the other two players. I don't know if it will be in a song writting sense, or if it will be in a live setting, but it will be something. I know that much.

 I worry, like we all do when there are changes, and sometimes it all feels like too much, but truth be told, Axl has yet to let us down once the final product reaches us. In both the sense of a new album (CD) or in live performance (2002 + 2006).

I wouldn't have minded to have seen this either.

Like I said earlier, Robin just never really did that much for me. I'm not trying to put him down, but it's not like there aren't other guitar players out there who have his ability.

I catch a few local bands on a monthly basis and I see guys who I consider to be every bit as good. I don't know much about DJ's past work, but I really don't think the shoes he'll be filling are all that big.

If these most recent video and tour delays are the result of Robin's departure, that's really unfortunate.  While I can understand him getting tired of the endless bouts of inactivity and delays, you would think that having dedicated 10 years of your life to a project would have been reason to at least stick around until the curtain was finally unveiled.

Maybe he really didn't think 2008 was the year? Or maybe he just had enough of the politics and wanted to get back to doing what he seems to enjoy .... touring.

Tough to say. I hope he's happy with his decision regardless of his reasons.

I just think with a guy of Bucket's talent, it may be insulting having other guys inferior to his talent playing solos instead of him.

But didn't we already cross that bridge on the 2006/2007 tour?

At least now we have members who seem to be a little more normal and down to earth. You know, willing to chat with their fans without a sock puppet.

But I hear what you're saying, he could play a guitar.

correct me if i'm wrong, but when buckethead decided to abandon gnr and axl, didn't axl explain it in a press release?  he said that bucket was more concerned with advancing his solo career and didn't care about what was best for gnr.  it's why he quit right before a big show. 

on one hand, i've got your word.  on the other hand, i've got the word of axl rose.  when it comes to all things gnr, i'll trust axl over you.  or any other anonymous stranger on the internet. 

sorry if band drama isn't your thing.  so axl can come out and call slash the cancer that he is.  axl can come out and tell us how bucket sold gnr out to promote his solo career.  but if i'm not allowed to have the same opinion?  once again... i'll take axl's word over yours.  but thanks!

Please.

I thought you of all people would know the difference between going for just technical talent and going for the right feel on a track.





/jarmo

Yea, like Robin's better solo, I can't see Buckethead doing something better in that place.  And I can't see Robin doing something better where Buckehead put his.   Different players, different feel.. worked well together.

Axl had no problem swappin his dr. pepper spit with Bucket so, like coolman said, you're taking this waaaaaay too seriously ..... to the point of creepy.

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/news/shownews.php?newsid=1878

Again I'm not saying that Robin should not have been a part of CD or GNR, I'm just not convinced that he was necessarily cut out to be the true lead guitarist at least for the type of album that CD eventually became.  I think that is evidenced in some way by Axl's comments after Robin's initial departure and the fact that Brian May and Buckethead were brought in, and the way that Bucket in many ways elevated songs that were written long before he arrived to a much higher level.

This is a lot of speculation but I've often wondered if there was an awkward dynamic created by bringing Robin back into the fold as a "lead" guitarist along with Bucket after Robin had already left.  I'm not trying to insult Robin but in my opinion he was totally overshadowed and outshone by Bucket during the 2001/2002 live shows.  Bucket during those shows kind of emerged as the other guy people paid attention to aside from Axl.  

To Robin's credit, he stepped up big time in 2006/2007 in terms of both presence and performance.  But to me, in terms of guitars, Buckethead stole the show on CD, wrote more songs, and Ron did a fantastic job with his rhythm work on the entire album and enjoy his bonkers solos, and especially his beautiful outro on Catcher, he had a big impact for coming on so late.  Robin had some great soulful solos, some sweet licks but his presence on the more aggressive songs is not very pronounced

Nonetheless I'm very satisfied with the final product, very happy with Robin's work, certainly would not be the same without him.  As others have mentioned, I think a big part of my enjoyment of the album is the interesting blend of different style guitarists present.  However, I do wonder the "issues" with getting the album done had to do with some awkwardness or perhaps chemistry issues created reintegrating Robin into a lead role.  Objectively speaking, Bucket is the better guitarist, although by all accounts he is a very nice and humble guy, I can't help but think it may have been frustrating for him in some ways

I think without Robin, CD would not have Better. Better is the best rock song on this album. I think TWAT would not have been as good if Buckethead was  not on this album. Both played their parts well.

Both are great players, I prefer Robin though : ok:

There's better local guitar players in your city that are better than Robin ??? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: your kidding right ?

^ Yeah, that's what happens when you write before thinking. :hihi:

And Rob avoided my questions about this statement. Wonder why...

I think Robin's SCOM solo better than Slash (http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/board/index.php?topic=56298.0). And pretty much all of his playing on old songs as well.

Ditto. People who says any other player could do better than that is just being bitter IMO. That solo is state of art and full of emotion - matching perfectly with Axl's lyrics and vocals.

Robin's SCOM solo is way way better, more powerful, unpredictable and adrenalinical than Slash's

What?

The only question I recall you asking me is whether or not I have video footage of these local guitarists in my area who I say are better than Finck. The answer is no, I don't.

When I go to a local bar/club to see a show, I can't say filming it is one of my priorities. And to be honest, I've never uploaded anything to youtube.

I really don't see why you find this so hard to believe? Like I said, I've never found Robin's playing to be much more than just average. He's got a pretty choppy/sloppy style that personally, just doesn't make for an overly impressive performance.

I'm not claiming that he can't play guitar. I just don't see him being very difficult to replace. Apparently Axl felt is was do'able too.


Your opinion.

But I couldn't disagree more.

I find it quite impressive. Wonder how many "average" guitarists could match the absolutely amazing work of Robin in Chinese Democracy. :hihi:

If you could recommend a few of those guitarists you talk about to Axl we might get some incredible songs in the future. :drool:

On topic, Chinese Democracy is that great because of everyone involved. I love Buckethead's work so much, but as we have seen Robin was essential to make this record as unique as it is.

Cool, so you're not able to use the Search engine on YouTube rather than filming it yourself and upload it?

I also aksed why in hell would Axl chose Robin if he's so average as you said.

Apparently, Axl wanted him (and even praised his work in a unknown song), but Robin didn't feel the same.

I don't know how to explain again and again how Robin's style is unique and how this is not what you can find in your neighborhood. You just can't, no matter how many teenage guitar players you show playing SCOM note per note. It's a very different thing to have someone capable to make the guitar sounding different than others and some other who can just hit the right notes.

I'm pretty sure you can't see it in that way. But I'm glad Axl could.

I'm probably more of a Buckethead fan (in general) but I think both are great on Chinese Democracy. If I weren't so biased, it would almost be a tie on the solos and stuff.  Robin won me over when I saw him play with GNR in 06. 

As the OP said "Robin isn't fit to hold Bucket's guitar strap".